Dell DJ, Samsung YP-910GS, and iPod

[MacRumors]

Walt Mossberg compares (http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/solution-20031029.html) the iPod with two of its major new competitors: The Dell Digital Jukebox (Dell DJ) (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031028053432.shtml) and Samsung's Napster player (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031020021056.shtml).

While Mossberg still gives a small edge to the iPod, these two new players mirror the iPod's functionality in many ways. Both act as integrated players for each company's music download service. The Dell DJ integrates with the Dell Music Store (MusicMatch) while the Samsung player is Napster's official player.

[madforrit]

Ugh....copy copy copy.

Haha, but they'll never be the cultural symbol that the ipod has become.

:D

[withnail]

Boy, Apple sure is charitable, doing R&D for everyone...

[Wash!!]

They still not have the cool factor the ipod has and they never will...I used the other hd base player from Rio and it sucks like there is no tomorrow what makes this player any different.. The ipod wins in form and function hands down
my 2¢

[q1232]

Hopefully this pushes Apple to include some of the features into the iPod that people want; like line in, fm, ect.

[withnail]

Originally posted by Wash!!
The ipod wins in form and function hands down

I totally agree. I have yet to see a tolerable navigation system in one of these "iPod killers". Everything I've seen is just so slow and klunky. Does anyone know if the scroll wheel/touchpad is patented by Apple? I'm surprised that more players don't rip this off as well. And I know there are people out there who don't like them, but I think the backlighting and non-moving buttons on the 3rd Gens are awesome.

[Wash!!]

Originally posted by q1232
Hopefully this pushes Apple to include some of the features into the iPod that people want; like line in, fm, ect.

At least in NY where I live there not really anything worth listing on FM or AM other than the traffic reports or may be the news, ever since I got my 15gig ipod 4 month ago I haven't listen to the radio once..;)

[sethypoo]

Originally posted by q1232
Hopefully this pushes Apple to include some of the features into the iPod that people want; like line in, fm, ect.

Forget line in, or and FM receiver: people want a lower price! If they include a line in function and FM, it's just going to jack the price up more. I'd like to see the 10GB start at $259, the 20GB at $359, and the 40GB at $449. All of them should also come with a gift certificate for $10 at the iTunes Music Store. Now that makes sense!

:rolleyes: ;) :D

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by sethypoo
I'd like to see the ... 40GB at $449.Done: http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&catoid=-8721&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_2&oid=79771

-Richard

[jayscheuerle]

Competition will bring prices down and help create a better iPod that has more integrated features and a longer battery life. This can only be seen as a good thing. Apple's had a couple of good years running before anyone's even come close. I only hope that these styleless alternatives with approximately equal function won't drive Apple into a losing rematch against standards which they refuse to adopt...

[potuncle]

It looks as if both the Dell DJ or Samsung Napster have physically active controls. Wasn't the moving scrollwheel of the 1G iPod problematic? Any control that actually move is bound to both wear out and allow dirt and moisture into the enclosure.

I am the recent proud owner of a 3G iPod and would never have choosen anything other than an iPod.

[acj]

Apple didn't make the user interface. Sometimes they contract out their inovation. Perhaps Dell used the same company, so they didn't really "copy" that part from Apple?


I think the Dell is more "different" than better or worse.

It's for people who want integrated voice recording and killer battery life. People who don't like attachments. I guess.

[DGFan]

Isn't it a bit strange that the napster site is....well....light on information? There's no ad for their portable player. There's no screenshots and info about their software. Just a big download button! I imagine some people would like to see what the product is before they do an install.

[MorganX]

Maybe it's just me but I saw a download button with no screenshots or requirement info. Umm, I don't do those kinds of downloads.

I did look at the animations. Love the Hip Hop one, Phat Booties, the napster cat with gold chain, sparkling gold tooth, and oh yeah, a basketball.

No thanks.

Not only does the player look like crap, but the site has no class. The service has no class.

I guess all I have to say about the new Napster is "Get down on yo' knees and foshizzle on my nizzle!"

I think I'll buy a few tunes off iTMS tonight to make myself feel better.

[chewbaccapits]

hehe....Spike up the sales for iTMS again....why not?...Anybody else down???

[chewbaccapits]

From the napster page at the very bottom...Sys requirements:

"PC only."

[LimeLite]

FM Transmitters for portable audio devices are crap. If you want to buy it as an accessory, then do what you want, but I hope that this feature is never built into the iPod. It makes me mad just thinking about it.

Can someone please tell me if these other devices can act as external drives too? And can they sync information? It seems to me that when people compare the iPod to other portable players, they forget that there's more to an iPod than just the music.

[noel4r]

Mossberg described the Dell DJ as "handsome". I dont know about you guys, I think it's incredibly ugly and I say that without prejudice. It's gruesome

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Neither competitor is as sleek looking or as easy to use as the iPod. Neither have the reputation attached to them.

Cost is an issue, but people are willing to pay more for a better product. People often choose import vehicles that cost far more than their domestic counterparts and don't offer anymore. Why do they do this? The perception of quality and reliability is what they cherish.

[Sailfish]

Anyone read the fine print of the Napster (Microsoft) Client?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44435

[mjones4th]

Originally posted by MorganX
Maybe it's just me but I saw a download button with no screenshots or requirement info. Umm, I don't do those kinds of downloads.

I did look at the animations. Love the Hip Hop one, Phat Booties, the napster cat with gold chain, sparkling gold tooth, and oh yeah, a basketball.

No thanks.

Not only does the player look like crap, but the site has no class. The service has no class.

I guess all I have to say about the new Napster is "Get down on yo' knees and foshizzle on my nizzle!"



I mean, can we at least be subtle? Oh I'm sorry, I left my ten pounds of ice and AK47 at home when I picked up my tie, so you probably didn't recognize my gangstaness.

wow

Cain't we awl jus hit a bong?

mitz

[tizza]

Originally posted by withnail
Boy, Apple sure is charitable, doing R&D for everyone...
I'd be interested to know which are the key parts of the iPod that Apple has IP on. Obviously the groovy scroll-wheel would seem to be one, but maybe much of the other stuff such as their menu setup is open to everyone ...

[yosoyjay]

I for one would like an FM receiver on the iPod. There are many occasions while I'm walking about that I'd like to listen to the radio.

Unfortunatly, I don't think there is anyway to fit another chip inside the iPod without changes inside and out.

I would also like to see iPod prices fall, but Apple's margins on these are already relatively low compared to the other products as noted by The Wall Street Journal. So I don't see that happening without a big price drop in cost of components.

[ryanw]

Is napster 2.0 even MacOSX compatible? I loaded it on my PC just to give it a fair trial. Talk about very very stupid. This thing is horrible. You give it a genre and it searches and SLOWLY gives you a list of artists, and they are not sorted in any sort of fashion. All in a cruddy HTML/browser feel. It just feels like using an HTML plugin. <BLAH> ...

[tychay]

Originally posted by acj
Apple didn't make the user interface. Sometimes they contract out their inovation. Perhaps Dell used the same company, so they didn't really "copy" that part from Apple?

Not true (http://www.designchain.com/coverstory.asp?issue=summer02). Apple contracted out for the reference hardware (PortalPlayer) and the supply chain. But the design (wheel, packaging, integration, UI) is all Apple.

Honestly, don't you think that companies such as Toshiba, Creative, Rio, Archos, Samsung, and Dell wouldn't copy that trademark iPod design if they thought they could get away with it?

Besides, I doubt Dell would copy most of the parts from Apple. First of all, they don't need such a high quality codec because Dell's customers don't care. Second, Dell is a master of the supply chain so they can get the parts and integrate it chaper at a lower choice if they leave themselves flexibility in which parts they choose. Third, Dell would never license the reference design from PortalPlayer when they can get a Taiwanese ODM to do a design without royalties and a vague order like: "just make it like the iPod but use these parts". All of these + a strategic error in not seeing the hard drive player market probably explain why it took almost two years for Dell to come up with their knock off.

All this and cut out the retailer and what do you get? A total cost savings of $50.

Whoo hoo! I'm rich. I'm going to Disneyland!

It looks like iPod:00's :: discman:90's :: walkman:70-80's.

Take care,

[nagromme]

Is it true that Napster-bought songs and the Napster client app will ONLY work with that Samsung-Napster player and no others?

Or it that true of one (purchased WMAs vs. client app) but not the other?

That's what I read before the service opened, but Napster's site is short on details!

[evoluzione]

at least the dell has a somewhat ok name, unlike the samsung, i mean who the hell is gonna say "i just bought the YP-910GS!"

yep, the competition can only be a good thing, i doubt these things will last too long, the dell dj perhaps, but only because there are still peeps out there that have never heard of the ipod....i was moving an indigo imac the other day and a guy was like cooool, you can attach that to any computer??? um, yeah, ok.

apple needs to advertise way way more.

[Codemonkey]

What frustrates me a little more about this bit of imitating is that in the past it's been smaller, useless companies that copy Apple designs - be it 3rd party enclosures that mimic the Cube, or eMachines ripping of the Bondi iMac. It really was inconsequential.

Now we have the largest computer manufacturer in the world (I'm guessing on this one - even if it's #2 or 3, you get my point) ripping off one of the only truly profitable products in the Apple hardware lineup.

I understand that we should be used to this "sincerest form of flattery", but imnsho not at the possibility of millions in lost revenues.

And yes, to whomever mentioned it earlier: The Napster product has zero class.

In the end, I believe that that one might be a product for a different demographic... the Dell one on the other hand... direct competition...

[Codemonkey]

Originally posted by evoluzione
YP-910GS

Aren't they still referred to as the YEPP? (hence the YP in the model name) LOL

I can't think of any model name funnier at the moment, other than maybe Gremlin...

[gwuMACaddict]

i could care less if my next ipod had an FM reciever built in. i bought the ipod so i wouldnt have to listen to s#$ty songs on the radio in the first place.

these new mp3 players are only going to help the ipod. light a little fire under ol' steve-o. i expect price drops before x-mas.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by withnail
I totally agree. I have yet to see a tolerable navigation system in one of these "iPod killers". Everything I've seen is just so slow and klunky. Does anyone know if the scroll wheel/touchpad is patented by Apple? I'm surprised that more players don't rip this off as well. And I know there are people out there who don't like them, but I think the backlighting and non-moving buttons on the 3rd Gens are awesome.

The scroll wheel is indeed patented.

[legion]

Originally posted by tychay
Not true (http://www.designchain.com/coverstory.asp?issue=summer02). Apple contracted out for the reference hardware (PortalPlayer) and the supply chain. But the design (wheel, packaging, integration, UI) is all Apple.

The link points to the reference design for the internals of the iPod but the "control wheel", menu software/UI, and iTunes software are all other people's original IP, either licensed and used from another company (menu software and control wheel) or bought out-right by Apple (iTunes software)

[tychay]

Originally posted by legion
The link points to the reference design for the internals of the iPod but the "control wheel", menu software/UI, and iTunes software are all other people's original IP, either licensed and used from another company (menu software and control wheel) or bought out-right by Apple (iTunes software)

I claimed that the packaging, control wheel, UI, and iTunes integration is all Apple.

I'll grant out that the UI may not be all Apple (because I won't bother myself to look up which parts of the interface are patented and the rest is locked up under secret agreements anyway), certainly the OS isn't and neither is the codec, hard drive, chipset, etc as quoted in the article and referenced by me.

I see you've granted out the packaging by simply dropping it in your counter argument. That's good because the last third of the article referemced mentions that this is definitely what Apple brought to the design chain table from the beginning before they started to shop around for partners.

As for the control wheel. Then I guess you better help the USPTO with prior art (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.html&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=20030076303.PGNR.&OS=dn/20030076303&RS=DN/20030076303) so Apple doesn't get away with murder and Dell, et. all get free and unfetterred access to what nearly every reviewer agrees is a superior interface.

As for the iTunes integration. Huh? I own a copy of SoundJam and it does not integrate with the iPod and has never had a sync functionality that you are referring to. Maybe it's because there was no iPod back in 1998 (or 99 when Apple purchased SoundJam and the put the entire staff on payroll to design iTunes). What it had was the copy file ability like what I get with MusicMatch. I hardly call this "bought out-right by Apple."

And before I have to taste more whine from you, why don't you again put your money with your mouth is and help prevent another Apple patent from being granted (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.html&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=20030079038.PGNR.&OS=dn/20030079038&RS=DN/20030079038) for such integration.

Then again from the sound of it, you just wish to cloud the facts with falsehoods and just hoping hoping your lies will make what is false the defacto truth.

[singletrack]

Don't you have Digital Radio yet in the USA? I just don't listen to FM anymore and haven't for a couple of years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/digitalradio/

Adding DAB into the iPod would be more innovative than the me-too FM radio clones.

[micvog]

Originally posted by nagromme
Is it true that Napster-bought songs and the Napster client app will ONLY work with that Samsung-Napster player and no others?

No, I downloaded my five free tracks from Napster and they play on my PocketPC (running 2003 w/WM9) without problems. What other devices you can use beyond the Samsung player I don't know, but the latest PocketPCs seem to be among them.

My initial impressions are that the music store itself rivals iTMS... the layout is logical, easy to navigate and IMHO aesthetically pleasing. I am also impressed with the selection - for my admittedly non-mainstream tastes, I found the selection to be slightly better than iTMS. Unfortunately, the quality of the downloads is noticeably inferior - for the songs I downloaded, 128-bit WMA played on WM9 doesn't sound nearly as good as 128-bit AAC played with iTunesFW.

I will post some screenshots...

[micvog]

Napster Home

[micvog]

Napster Browse

[micvog]

Napster Library

(Let me know if you have specific questions... sorry about the resolution, I was trying to keep the file size small enough to post).

[Phil Of Mac]

Is it just me, or did they rip off the iTMS interface?

[kryten2000]

What is Napster's Model?
Is it subscription based or pay per song?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by kryten2000
What is Napster's Model?
Is it subscription based or pay per song?

Both are available.

[LimeLite]

Most likely conversation that these new players will create:
--------------
Situation 1:

Person 1: I just got a Dell DJ!!!

Person 2: Um....why?
--------------
Situation 2:

Person 1: I just got a Samsung YP-910GS!!!!111

Person 2: You're a moron.
-------------
Situation 3:

Person 1: Dude! I just picked up my Dell DJ!

Person 2: Sweet man! I just scored a Samsung...something or other!

Person 3: I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[stingerman]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Is it just me, or did they rip off the iTMS interface?

Yeah they ripped off iTunes. But of course that means that Roxio Toast on the Mac which Roxio makes a ton of money off of, more profit than they'll ever make off of Napster, is now literally toast. Apple will probably build in features in a future update to iTunes that will completely eliminate the need for Roxio's other products on both the Mac and Windows. Effectively killing Roxio.

I see Apple charging an additional $19 to Windows users who want to get the advanced burning features in Roxio's real bread and butter applications tha Roxio charges a premium for. Of course they could always give it away for free and bankrupt Roxio altogether. When Roxio decides to steal from Apple, then Apple has no choice but to respond as a competitor instead of as a partner. It goes both ways.

[Juventuz]

Originally posted by noel4r
Mossberg described the Dell DJ as "handsome". I dont know about you guys, I think it's incredibly ugly and I say that without prejudice. It's gruesome

I'm sorry, but Im going to have to disagree. I've got a 1st Gen iPod and love it, but I also think that the Dell DJ looks nice. If I were cost conscience and wanted an mp3 player that had a long battery life I'd go with the Dell.

Don't get me wrong, I'd get another iPod but if I wouldn't rule out a DJ like I would other players.

[Codemonkey]

Originally posted by Juventuz
I'm sorry, but Im going to have to disagree. I've got a 1st Gen iPod and love it, but I also think that the Dell DJ looks nice. If I were cost conscience and wanted an mp3 player that had a long battery life I'd go with the Dell.

Don't get me wrong, I'd get another iPod but if I wouldn't rule out a DJ like I would other players.

And when was the original iPod released? That's fine, you can like it, it was/is a good MP3 player, but to compare the Dell player to a 1st Gen iPod, based on the *evolution* of digital devices certainly doesn't say much for the Dell.

"Hey, this 2003 model car reminds me of the Edsel! I think it'll sell!"

Mmmmmmm....no.

[alameda20]

Those who fail to learn from history are probably destined to repeat

The parrallels beteen 2003 and 1993 are quite striking . Then as now Apple has a product that easily beats out its competitors Windows 1.0 . Apple users scoffed at everything else. Listening to you Mac users oh so superior attitude and I warran tyou it has a case. Apple makes huges margins on this fact. The PC started outselling the Macintosh but Apple failed to drop its inflated price thinking that there is no way Windows can compete with the MAc OS. Then Windows 3.1 comes out and the rest is history

Come on Apple how much does it actually cost to manufacture an ipod? Certainly nothing near waht you sell them at.

Apple is making the same misteake it made back in the early 90's. Its really is sad to watch this happen. Again users are going to be short changed buying overpriced stuff from Apple.

Hey Apple Imagine if you thought about market share and totally killing the oppostion now by pricing those Ipod's at 1/2 of what they are right now, you'd probaby get 90% market share for the next 10 years but no. Too greedy. And what a market that would be. Isn't it better to have 90% of a 1000 times bigger total market long term than 70% of a small market now?

They are complacently sitting back at 55 to 70% market share patting themseleves on the back letting the copiers in who will eventually take over and kill the ipod once they get their players up to a reasonable standard at 1/2 the price.

What is it with this smug complacency in the Mac community?

You have been warned, I hope it doesn't happen but tell me I'm wrong? btw I have an Ipod and love it and an imac which I love, yeah and in 2 years I'll have to replace the damded ipod battery
$300 for 2 yrs of an ipod. piece of crap! then I have to buy another! or go through thehassle of pulling the thing aprt and to get a new battery in

[Phil Of Mac]

Alameda, you couldn't be more wrong.

First off, Apple is aggressively pushing price on the iPod. Just not at the price of quality. I will almost guarantee you that the dPod is going to have some quality issues.

Second, Apple's decline in market share against Microsoft was due to more things than overconfidence. If you will read any decent book about the history of Apple, you will recognize this.

Third, it wasn't until 1995 that Apple ceased to be the leading vendor of personal computers. 1995 was also almost the start of Apple's absolute decline as a corporation. Apple is on a rising curve now.

Fourth, my buddy Wes has been heavily using his Rev. A iPod ever since release. No battery problems.

Fifth, it doesn't matter how smug we are, it matters how smug Apple is. And Steve's a fighter.

[Sabenth]

Ok i dont own an iPod i dont use iTunes Store what i do care is the fact is iPod has stud the test of time 2 years as number one protable audio / hard drive device . Dell just makes things cheap same as hewlet packard do. What i do know is that yes Apple over charge for the iPod come on even Microsoft over charge for the dam products that they have maybe exscluding the xbox ..

As for fm radio features err want radio buy a walkman want music with out adds use an iPod ..

Napster hmm what the hell is that fruit juice carton seriously it looks like somthing my 2 year old uses to drink out of .. vile looking thing and baring in mind she drinks a bob the bulider drink thing that i dont mind but napster had its chance got caught out and bingo there you go roxo or what ever there called dont have any of there software i dont know why there even in the music biz its not there area right..

God people worried that the dam iPods gona get blown away if apples stood the test of time all these years i dont see the iPod been blown out the water and even it is its still going to be here ..
Apple got it right first time out the box iTunes / iPod / iTunes Store = cash entertianment and well good looks

ok ive talke enough

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by Sabenth
Ok i dont own an iPod i dont use iTunes Store what i do care is the fact is iPod has stud the test of time 2 years as number one protable audio / hard drive device . Dell just makes things cheap same as hewlet packard do. What i do know is that yes Apple over charge for the iPod come on even Microsoft over charge for the dam products that they have maybe exscluding the xbox ..

As for fm radio features err want radio buy a walkman want music with out adds use an iPod ..

Napster hmm what the hell is that fruit juice carton seriously it looks like somthing my 2 year old uses to drink out of .. vile looking thing and baring in mind she drinks a bob the bulider drink thing that i dont mind but napster had its chance got caught out and bingo there you go roxo or what ever there called dont have any of there software i dont know why there even in the music biz its not there area right..

God people worried that the dam iPods gona get blown away if apples stood the test of time all these years i dont see the iPod been blown out the water and even it is its still going to be here ..
Apple got it right first time out the box iTunes / iPod / iTunes Store = cash entertianment and well good looks

ok ive talke enough
Wow. What?

[gekko513]

Originally posted by q1232
Hopefully this pushes Apple to include some of the features into the iPod that people want; like line in, fm, ect.
I don't want FM transmition or receiving on the iPod!

First of all the only times I would use these features, if they were included, would be when some Creative/Samsung/Whatever owner tried to bang me on my head with his player's features.

Second of all, I would not be able to use the iPod when flying. You're not allowed to used electronic devices with transmitters or receivers when flying. (This acutally puzzles me a bit, considering that noone complains about laptops with Airport/WiFi, Bluetooth and whatnot).

[jerem]

Originally posted by LimeLite
Wow. What?

LOL. I have no idea what Sabenth was saying either, and I'm from the same city! :D

FM transmitters don't work very well here in Melbourne because there is no bloody gaps in the spectrum, every time I find a good frequency with my iTrip another bloody station causes static!:mad:

Off Topic: I swear five FM stations were playing the same song at the same time the other day, it sucked too.

[Juventuz]

Originally posted by Codemonkey
And when was the original iPod released? That's fine, you can like it, it was/is a good MP3 player, but to compare the Dell player to a 1st Gen iPod, based on the *evolution* of digital devices certainly doesn't say much for the Dell.

I was talking about looks, nothing else.

"Hey, this 2003 model car reminds me of the Edsel! I think it'll sell!"

Mmmmmmm....no.

I guess you haven't seen how well the Thunderbird, Prowler and others are selling. Not to mention the new cars like the Mustang etc. that are going with the old designs. People like it and they're buying it.

[Codemonkey]

Originally posted by Juventuz
I was talking about looks, nothing else.

I guess you haven't seen how well the Thunderbird, Prowler and others are selling. Not to mention the new cars like the Mustang etc. that are going with the old designs. People like it and they're buying it.

Those cars are specifically designed to drum up memories of baby boomers in their "younger years".

I'm sorry for bringing up the car analogy because 100% of the time it always gets misinterpreted and badly mutated as such a broad topic always does. Anyway - you can't compare the outright obvious nostalgia stylings of those cars with something that *apparentlly* is trying to compete with the most bleeding edge MP3 players on the market. Your extraplation of my analogy fell apart.

If Dell *meant* to design something that resembled a 2 year old product, then kudos to them.

Anyway, I'm done. I retract my car analogy, it always turns into a fustercluck.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

All this talk of FM receivers and transmitters leads to another point: the iPod is far, far ahead in third party peripheral support.

Another issue with the Dell is where you can buy it. If it is limited to Dell's online site the I feel it will do poorly. You can touch and experience an iPod almost anywhere (Target, CompUSA, BestBuy, Circuit City) but you may only get to see the Dell DJ on the website and on Dell Mall carts. I'm not sure how good the competition from Napster will be. Roxio doesn't have the resources of Apple and also is using a name that is related to free downloads. Maybe not such a good idea for the pay service.

[alameda20]

"Alameda, you couldn't be more wrong."

I don't agree that Apple is agressively pricing the iPod. I think it is a fact that Apple has the highest margins in the industry. So my conclusion is that they are marking up the iPod significantly. I would certainly like to know how much it actually costs them to make. Might be an interesting thread on its own?


Apples declining market share was in my opinion due to price. This is exactly my point about the Ipod and my point that I think Apple will repeat history with the Ipod.


Okay lets not nit pick about dates 1995, early 90's what does it matter, it happened.

I don't think Apple is on a rising curve I think it is more like : If apple hadn't brought out a new OS and flat panel macs and Ipod they would be toast by now. I think Apple is just treading water and I think Apple needs to get its prices even further down. I don't think they can sit back and say "Hey our products are superior and that justfies the higher price". I think only a foolish person would take that stand and their histoy in the 90's I believe proves it.

So my conclusion is that Apple is not really interested in market share, if it was interested in market share it would reduce it's margins to the industry norm.

I think Apple has simply, as usual, developed a superior product and is milking it now for a fast buck. Others will eventually make their players as good as they need to be for most folks and in 5 years we will be waxing nostalgic about the Ipod and wondering how crappy mp3players could knock Apple's Ipod from 70% down to 5% market share.

And don't get me onto to Apple hype I'll have to reach for the sickbag. Watching Steve's eyes glaze over like an over excited schoolboy is quite sickening. And as for his taste in music arghhhhhh

Well one thing I agree with you about is Apple smugness. I can sense it's glow all the way from here to Cupertino across the bay

[nagromme]

Where do your numbers on Apple's margins come from?

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by jerem
Off Topic: I swear five FM stations were playing the same song at the same time the other day, it sucked too.
Was it Stacy's Mom? ;)

[dobbs]

I really hope Apple doesn't put a radio in the iPod. Radio blows.

I would like a built in voice recorder though.

[jmerk]

it is ALL about substandard companies coming in and delivering "almost" products for cheaper. this has been the case all along and will continue to be the case and is the number one reason why Apple loses marketshare all over the place.
the fact is, Monopolosoft (or Dell or whoever) can come to market with a product that loses money (XBox, Dell DJ etc.) and is almost always inferior and wait it out until the other companies die off because they aren't "standard." i GUARANTEE that Microsoft will push some piece of junk that will play .wma files and use Windows Media Player for audio/video be "almost" as good as the iPod for $50-$100 less. Apple will wait about 6-12 months before they lower price to compete, Microsoft will already have gained a foothold, fast forward 5 years-iPod has 10% market share of portable audio players.

this post was right on:
"That's not true at all. Microsoft will gladly give an inch if it means they might gain a foot later. Just look at thier strategy in Asia which, might I say, is cruel and evil yet pure genius. They're taking advantage of rampant software piracy in Asia to make sure that their products have the widest user base possible, and that Asia is utterly dependant on their platform. Then the rug gets pulled out from under them with Longhorn, and an entire sub-contenent that has never payed a dime for software is standing face-to-face with a brand new and frightening concept -- in order to have software on your computer, you must first pay for it."

this is a sad but true fact. pay attention to the console game market in the next three years and that is your model for what will happen to the iPod.
Dreamcast is already dead, Gamecube is dying, Playstation is hanging on. 3 years-Sega, Nintendo, Sony developing games for the XBox. period.
we are all waiting for Longhorn in the desperate hope that it will drive people to the Mac. here's hoping...

j

[Sabenth]

Sorry Guys had to vent what i really meant to say was that this is just another copy cat syndrome Apple Make a great product everyone in the PC World go jeez they did it again and start going ok so thats how we should do it ok..

The FM Thing its just so daft really i see it like this if you need to use fm that either states that the taste in music that your are using on the iPod/ what ever is either really just getting repetitive cant see if you have 20 gig or more . or you really do like comercials ..

jerem iam from the UK Orginaly and the radio stations that are comercal based here have more or less the same playlist triple m really winds me up as with fox fm and other such likes thats why i tend to use iTunes at work rather than the radio

and dont get me wrong the UK Stations suck too ..

just dont like the idea of adding extra cost to somthing so simple as the iPod sorry for blowing up like an idiot get like that some times.. dont like people messing with things that work just fine as they are ie Copy cats need these extras to try and sell there product..

[alameda20]

Perhaps Apple has got it in a rather negative kind of way.

Perhaps the marketing folks at apple know that they will never compete on a long term basis and their tactic is to just innovate and innovate and make as much money out of their innovations before the "cheaper- almost as good copies" obliterate their advantage. This would explain the high prices.

Kinda sad really - if it is true?
But a lil bird tells me the mac comminity prefers to remain aloof in it's ivory tower.

I suppose they will then remain a niche company for ever.

You pay your money and take your chance. Maybe we should all stop putting so must expectation on Apples products becomimg a standard and leave that up to the "hell freezes over crowd"

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by alameda20
I don't agree that Apple is agressively pricing the iPod. I think it is a fact that Apple has the highest margins in the industry.

As a corporation. PowerBooks and such are high-margin products. That doesn't preclude Apple from selling other products at low margins, such as the iPod.

Originally posted by alameda20
So my conclusion is that they are marking up the iPod significantly. I would certainly like to know how much it actually costs them to make. Might be an interesting thread on its own?

The actual hard drive is in the triple digits itself, under $200 but over $100. Add the firmware, R&D, hardware, industrial design, it's easy to add another hundred or two.

Originally posted by alameda20
Apples declining market share was in my opinion due to price. This is exactly my point about the Ipod and my point that I think Apple will repeat history with the Ipod.

You're seriously oversimplifying. Poor marketing, atrocious developer relations, and continual crises were very much a cause. Pinning it on price alone is oversimplifying. And even if overpricing was a factor, the iPod is not overpriced. It is not priced significantly above the competitors, especially on relation to the quality of the product.

Originally posted by alameda20
I don't think Apple is on a rising curve I think it is more like : If apple hadn't brought out a new OS and flat panel macs and Ipod they would be toast by now. I think Apple is just treading water and I think Apple needs to get its prices even further down. I don't think they can sit back and say "Hey our products are superior and that justfies the higher price". I think only a foolish person would take that stand and their histoy in the 90's I believe proves it.

Apple *is* on a rising curve. Market share is increasing, profits are increasing, product quality is increasing. Every since 1997, Apple has been resurgent. The turnaround was more or less complete by 1999, and from then on it was just growth and improvement.

Originally posted by alameda20
So my conclusion is that Apple is not really interested in market share, if it was interested in market share it would reduce it's margins to the industry norm.

You're right, Apple isn't excessively interested in market share. Not enough to cut back on quality and build crap just to sell for a low price. That's Dell's business model, not Apple's.

The reason Apple's market share declined can be pinned down to one reason: Microsoft Windows, and the agreement that Sculley signed granting Apple IP to Microsoft. That's not gonna happen with iPod.

[alameda20]

Microsoft is really more of a Japanese model company than an American Company:

In the Art of War: The main premise is "You never start a war" unless your opponent has already lost" Microsoft has been running a strtegic war ever since it was founded.

Companies like Apple bringing out Ipods or whatever are no threat to MS because MS has already won the war. One of the last posters already described the end game of the war which MS has started on Asia.

Apple does not have the goal of world domination thus it 's strategy isn't to dominate a market place. If it wanted to play that game it would need to be of a size to be able to sell a loss leading product which would spring board it's other products on board so to speak. The fact that Apple came out with itunes for Windows is a acceptance that it isn't fighting a war - indeed it lost that years ago. Itunes for windows is only an attempt to try to keep its Ipod market share for as long as possible going forward. Indeed without it's jukebox on windoze the demise of the ipod would just be hastened. They put enough control into itunes to stop other players from syncing to itunes. But it isn't really that hard to have itunes as your Windows juke box and another jukebox to sync those songs to a cheaper player. Just wait it hasn't really stared yet. Once someone figurs out how to crack itunes for windows noone needs an Ipod anymore right?

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Originally posted by alameda20
Microsoft is really more of a Japanese model company than an American Company:

In the Art of War: The main premise is "You never start a war" unless your opponent has already lost" Microsoft has been running a strtegic war ever since it was founded.

Companies like Apple bringing out Ipods or whatever are no threat to MS because MS has already won the war. One of the last posters already described the end game of the war which MS has started on Asia.

Apple does not have the goal of world domination thus it 's strategy isn't to dominate a market place. If it wanted to play that game it would need to be of a size to be able to sell a loss leading product which would spring board it's other products on board so to speak. The fact that Apple came out with itunes for Windows is a acceptance that it isn't fighting a war - indeed it lost that years ago. Itunes for windows is only an attempt to try to keep its Ipod market share for as long as possible going forward. Indeed without it's jukebox on windoze the demise of the ipod would just be hastened. They put enough control into itunes to stop other players from syncing to itunes. But it isn't really that hard to have itunes as your Windows juke box and another jukebox to sync those songs to a cheaper player. Just wait it hasn't really stared yet. Once someone figurs out how to crack itunes for windows noone needs an Ipod anymore right?

Well, seeing as a crack for iTunes would be illegal there might be some issues.

Wow. What cynicism - maybe a troll. M$ has won the war? I don't know about that. The x86 is on its way out at some point in the future. Apple-IBM-AMD are all promoting the PowerPC as the successor, Intel is going with Itanium. There's another battle brewing here.

As for Apple, I don't think they want the market dominance of Microsoft. I think they'd like to have 15-25% of the overall market because they want to be an innovative hardware company. To do this, they must keep the Mac platform closed. This also means that the Mac, especially running OSX, will always be more reliable and more stable than the PC because it is more controlled. It also means it will cost more.

And just to let you know on the margins, Apple hardly makes any money on the educational models. I believe they make about $15-30 on all the other models if they sell for the regular prices. Remember, they must account for distribution - they make a lot more if you order from them directly. Dell won't have to get the distribution fees and give profits to organizations like Best Buy. But Apple can't give discounts for ordering from them because that'll be a quick way to kill your distributors. Also, remember Apple's R&D costs across their product lines impact any profit they make. They also have a big head start here. As technology gets cheaper, so will the iPods - and they'll add features before anyone else. They'll also work best with the software. I also can say that they won't have as many build quality issues as the Dells or Smasungs. I expect the initial Dells to run a 10-15% failure rate within one year - and that's not good.

[Capt Underpants]

Originally posted by madforrit
Ugh....copy copy copy.

Haha, but they'll never be the cultural symbol that the ipod has become.

:D

I think calling the iPod a cultural symbol is a bit over the top. Most people don't even know what an iPod is. I went to 3 halloween parties and not only adults, but also kids my age (teens) asked what I was. And no, it is not becasue my ipod costume was so horrible....

[Sabenth]

Underlining the main things that make the iPod so great = the fact that Mac users know what iPod is windows on the other hand are only just starting to see what benfits Apple can offer and with new compertion from dell and co its going to prove very intresting to see who comes out on top i have a feeling its going to be the sh!it hits the fan for a while then when it all settles i think apple will win this one ..

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by jmerk
Dreamcast is already dead

The DreamCast isn't dead, It still live on in the hearts of a few.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Capt Underpants
And no, it is not becasue my ipod costume was so horrible....

That's a big move, a really big move, wearing an iPod outfit to a halloween party.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Capt Underpants
I think calling the iPod a cultural symbol is a bit over the top. Most people don't even know what an iPod is. I went to 3 halloween parties and not only adults, but also kids my age (teens) asked what I was. And no, it is not becasue my ipod costume was so horrible....

That's because you're trapped in Loserville, no offense. Those of us who know what's going on know about the iPod.

[Iconocat]

Some interesting stats I've seen on cnet....

Right now they are having a "Love it" or "Leave it" poll for the latest in eletronic accessories. The YP-910GS (god that's lame...) Napter Player is "Love it's" at 1725 (28%) and "Leave it's" at 4399 (72%)... iPod Killer?? Not! :)

On the other hand, the iRiver iHP-120 coming in almost 50/50 w/ "Love's" at 4227 (51%) and "Leave's" at 3988 (49%)

No other digital music players were included in this poll...

It's not really possible to see how the iPod is going to do against the Dell player, but I'll be interested to see once the Jukebox is finally been out for a while.

I think there are going to be strong sales for some of the other players, but I still don't really expect to see anything surpass iPod.

It's about time we get another company considered to be the top in a specific area of technology besides Dell or M$. In this case, it looks as if in the arena of digital music, Apple might just be that company. :)