DVD to Apple TV - Quality suffers?

[FatGolfer]

Hi

I am considering getting a 160GB Apple TV and would like to know if I can rip my DVD movies to it and if so, can I rip them at the same quality? I have a 40 inch TV which I would like to hook it up to and use as a movie base.

Thanks

[AliensAreFuzzy]

If you use Handbrake and the :apple:TV preset, it will look almost identical to DVDs. I actually use an iPod comptable format on my 60" TV and it looks amazing.

[killmoms]

Any lossy-to-lossy transcode will result in quality loss. Heck, a DVD is lower quality than the source it came from.

That said, at a high enough bitrate the two will be functionally equivalent for most people.

[speakerwizard]

with the appletv preset in handbrake i personally cannot tell the difference.

[Eraserhead]

As the HD rentals are highly regarded as being higher quality than DVD, I would expect its possible to rip at DVD quality for the Apple TV.

However as you are changing data from one format to another which isn't lossless the quality will always drop a little.

[Jeff Hall]

I ripped The Kingdom using Mac The Ripper and then ran the VIDEO_TS through Handbrake using the AppleTV settings. I could not the the difference (audio or video) between the M4V file vs. DVD on my 65" screen.

It is every bit as good as the physical media as far as my eyes and ears are concerned.

[KakaduDreamer]

I ripped The Kingdom using Mac The Ripper and then ran the VIDEO_TS through Handbrake using the AppleTV settings. I could not the the difference (audio or video) between the M4V file vs. DVD on my 65" screen.

It is every bit as good as the physical media as far as my eyes and ears are concerned.

For those of you who are using Handbrake to encode from the VIDEO_TS folders, are you using the "2-pass encoding" option to achieve the DVD quality results? What other options are you typically using? I'm only interested in getting my videos (movies and TV shows) to run on Apple TV, so I use the Apple TV preset all the time.

I always select the Apple TV preset (2500 bitrate default) but then use a 2-pass option. I have achieved very good results overall. Having said that, I do occasionally see some slight "fuzzi-ness" with some movies, in some scenes. This has led me to conclude: 1) there can be a noticeable loss in quality inherent between the DVD rip/re-encode to H.264, or 2) I'm not setting something correctly in HB to achieve optimal output. I have experimented a bit between 2500 - 3000 bitrate to see if there is a noticeable difference, and I haven't really seen it. Is there something else in HB that I can set/tweak to achieve those DVD quality results?

BTW, I am using a Windows PC with a quad core processor and 3GB of memory so I can't imagine my hardware is a problem for encoding...

I use AnyDVD for ripping my DVDs to the hard drive prior to using HB to encode.

[Jeff Hall]

For those of you who are using Handbrake to encode from the VIDEO_TS folders, are you using the "2-pass encoding" option to achieve the DVD quality results? What other options are you typically using?

Here's my complete workflow:


Rip DVD with Mac The Ripper v3.014M (entire disc)
Encode with Handbrake 0.9.2:

Apple TV Preset
64 Bit MP4 enabled (if it's a movie over 2 hours -- just in case the 5.1 AC3 pushes the file size beyond 4GB)
Two Pass encoding (turbo 1st pass)
De-interlace in slow mode (required on most Animated shows, but not on most newer movies -- use the preview mode to see if there are lines across the screen in fast motion scenes)
Select desired audio track (e.g., Japanese if encoding Anime)
Select subtitles (if applicable)

Start the encoding process...
Handbrake hands the file off the MetaX
Use MetaX to tag the file, add artwork, etc.
Write the tags with MetaX
MetaX hands the file(s) off to iTunes
iTunes imports the file(s) to my external library
Apple TV is synced
Put popcorn in microwave for 2 minutes :D


The only problems I'm having is that when putting multiple episodes of a TV Season in the queue, Handbrake tends to crash on me. So I just do one chapter (episode) at a time for now.

[JonHimself]

If you use Handbrake and the :apple:TV preset, it will look almost identical to DVDs. I actually use an iPod comptable format on my 60" TV and it looks amazing.

Does it really though? I'm not saying you're lying or anything I'm just curious. I encode with the AppleTV preset, 2-pass, and even though it looks really good and I am comfortable using it instead of DVDs, I can still see the difference using a 42" lcd. I suppose I should just encode a DVD using the iPod present and see how it looks...

[mechamac]

I used to do 2-pass rips until I discovered that I can't tell the difference between a 1 and 2 pass rip on my 23" TV. 2 pass rips are a little sharper and less noisy (especially near contrasty edges) on my iMac, but I no longer think it's worth the time to rip 2-pass.

To my eyes, Handbrake rips look about 95-98% as good as DVDs. Certain types of shots, like a bright flashlight cutting through smokey darkness, look noisier and more posterized when ripped vs. the original DVD. However, on my TV--which is calibrated "well enough" to a THX test on an Indiana Jones disc--even these scenes are far, far, far from being objectionable enough to offset the convenience of movies on Apple TV. To my eyes, anyhow.

[Michael CM1]

Hi

I am considering getting a 160GB Apple TV and would like to know if I can rip my DVD movies to it and if so, can I rip them at the same quality? I have a 40 inch TV which I would like to hook it up to and use as a movie base.

Thanks

With the 40GB version I got, I can't tell much. I'm using files ripped at 640x480 (or less than 480 for widescreen) at 1000 kbps average bitrate in HandBrake. I watched these on a 1080p 61" Samsung DLP hoss (with LED-backlighting) through *component video* cables. I could tell some minimal quality issues, like slight blocking on white backgrounds occasionally. But I don't mind that since I targeted these files for use on iPods. The AppleTV preset would clog up my external hard drives (and iPod disk) in a hurry.

Long story short, HandBrake is pretty darn good. Now they just need HandBrake HD and some Blu-ray drives! :)

[toddngina]

I think it's all purely subjective, and how picky you are on the details. I rip using the ATV preset, with 2 pass encoding, and generally it looks great. Especially considering you are taking a 5-6 GB orginal and compressing it down to 2-3 GB. There will be some loss, there has to be. The only quality issues I notice at this setting are some slight blockiness/grading issues with scenes that have large areas of low-contrast, such as night scenes or scenes with a lot of a similiar color (grey clouds for instance). I'm sure there's a way to encode at the original level of detail, but then you're left with those large 5-6 GB files. It's all a trade-off, and my realtively picky eyes are just fine with the ATV preset!

[kagharaht]

I ripped my DVD of Fifth Element in Superbit format. ATV preset, 2 pass and I swear to you it is so close to a high quality DVD that you really have to try hard to see the difference. For kicks, I dropped the rate to 2000kbs - 2 pass, and it looks gorgeous on my 42" Sony. File size 2.16GB. If only all DVDs come in superbit, all HB rips would look even more amazing. :)

[dynaflash]

If only all DVDs come in superbit, all HB rips would look even more amazing. :)
So very true. what is really amazing is when you start feeding HB HD program streams from say, an eyetv. Using constant quality, you can set it to 60% and get a better looking encode than sd dvd set at 70% at nearly half the file size. The quality of the source is very important indeed.

[mrrory]

I have a cheap DVD player, and after ripping with Mactheripper and converting with the AppleTV 5.1 preset in Visual Hub, I believe the quality is improved. This is most likely because my DVD player is cheap, and connected as composite, so in the case you have a similar setup, my advice is go for it.

Renting movies is great too!

[jpcos]

I find the Apple TV setting to be very good, but it is a softer image to my eyes.

As a newbie to this, I ripped Star Wars into Apple TV, but I left out the subtitles. When we got to the cantina scene with Greedo, I realized the subtitles were missing, so we switched to the DVD. This type of switch showed me that there was a clear difference in sharpness. I have an Oppo 980, which does a nice job upconverting. Sharpness on the TV and player are set to zero.

Apple TV just seems soft to me. OTOH, maybe I just need to add sharpness to the Apple TV in general. When I rent SD movies, I have to increase sharpness on those in order to feel as though the image is not blurry.

Anyone else think that ripped SD DVDs are kind of soft?

[peeaanuut]

Here's my complete workflow:


Rip DVD with Mac The Ripper v3.014M (entire disc)
Encode with Handbrake 0.9.2:

Apple TV Preset
64 Bit MP4 enabled (if it's a movie over 2 hours -- just in case the 5.1 AC3 pushes the file size beyond 4GB)
Two Pass encoding (turbo 1st pass)
De-interlace in slow mode (required on most Animated shows, but not on most newer movies -- use the preview mode to see if there are lines across the screen in fast motion scenes)
Select desired audio track (e.g., Japanese if encoding Anime)
Select subtitles (if applicable)

Start the encoding process...
Handbrake hands the file off the MetaX
Use MetaX to tag the file, add artwork, etc.
Write the tags with MetaX
MetaX hands the file(s) off to iTunes
iTunes imports the file(s) to my external library
Apple TV is synced
Put popcorn in microwave for 2 minutes :D


The only problems I'm having is that when putting multiple episodes of a TV Season in the queue, Handbrake tends to crash on me. So I just do one chapter (episode) at a time for now.

Not to be critical, but I have a problem with your work flow.

Does your popcorn pop everything at 2 minutes? Cause mine takes a little bit longer with some shaking.

[KakaduDreamer]

Not to be critical, but I have a problem with your work flow.

Does your popcorn pop everything at 2 minutes? Cause mine takes a little bit longer with some shaking.

I think you have to utilize the 2-pass encoding option in order to assure that each and every popcorn kernel is popped, allowing for optimal consumption quality. :D

[dynaflash]

I think you have to utilize the 2-pass encoding option in order to assure that each and every popcorn kernel is popped, allowing for optimal consumption quality. :D
Or alternatively you could always use Constant Quality, faster than two pass and every kernel is popped the same. (sorry, couldn't resist).

[imacericg]

Here's my complete workflow:


Rip DVD with Mac The Ripper v3.014M (entire disc)
Encode with Handbrake 0.9.2:

Apple TV Preset
64 Bit MP4 enabled (if it's a movie over 2 hours -- just in case the 5.1 AC3 pushes the file size beyond 4GB)
Two Pass encoding (turbo 1st pass)
De-interlace in slow mode (required on most Animated shows, but not on most newer movies -- use the preview mode to see if there are lines across the screen in fast motion scenes)
Select desired audio track (e.g., Japanese if encoding Anime)
Select subtitles (if applicable)

Start the encoding process...
Handbrake hands the file off the MetaX
Use MetaX to tag the file, add artwork, etc.
Write the tags with MetaX
MetaX hands the file(s) off to iTunes
iTunes imports the file(s) to my external library
Apple TV is synced
Put popcorn in microwave for 2 minutes :D


The only problems I'm having is that when putting multiple episodes of a TV Season in the queue, Handbrake tends to crash on me. So I just do one chapter (episode) at a time for now.

What is your time spent doing this? What machine are you using? I thought handbreak does it all, you need Mac the Ripper also?

[Jeff Hall]

What is your time spent doing this? What machine are you using? I thought handbreak does it all, you need Mac the Ripper also?

The reason I use Mac The Ripper to rip my DVDs is because there is simply no better program available for the Mac to break protected DVDs. Handbrake rip will many titles, but not nearly as many as MTR can handle, especially the newer protection schemes. Additionally, MTR rips the master DVD files to a VIDEO_TS folder that I can use Handbrake with to re-encode for other devices.

My MacBook Pro is a 2.16GHz Core Duo (1st gen model). It takes anywhere from 8 to 30 minutes to rip the DVD depending on how heavy the protection scheme is.

It takes probably 2-3 hours to encode a 2 hour movie, and then another hour to upload it over my 802.11g network to my AppleTV.

[imacericg]

Jeff,

Last question. Do the movies you rip work with the process above work on your iPhone?

[kagharaht]

Or alternatively you could always use Constant Quality, faster than two pass and every kernel is popped the same. (sorry, couldn't resist).

Hmm I'm going to give CQ ( CRF x264 ) a try with the superbit and see how it looks.

[richpjr]

I find the Apple TV setting to be very good, but it is a softer image to my eyes.

As a newbie to this, I ripped Star Wars into Apple TV, but I left out the subtitles. When we got to the cantina scene with Greedo, I realized the subtitles were missing, so we switched to the DVD. This type of switch showed me that there was a clear difference in sharpness. I have an Oppo 980, which does a nice job upconverting. Sharpness on the TV and player are set to zero.

Apple TV just seems soft to me. OTOH, maybe I just need to add sharpness to the Apple TV in general. When I rent SD movies, I have to increase sharpness on those in order to feel as though the image is not blurry.

Anyone else think that ripped SD DVDs are kind of soft?

I also noticed that some rips seem a bit soft but nothing I can't live with.

[Jeff Hall]

Jeff,

Last question. Do the movies you rip work with the process above work on your iPhone?

I don't own an iPhone. The only other device I would need to encode would be for the Xbox360 (I used Connect360 to stream certain kinds of files to the 360 which Apple TV cannot play).

[BobVB]

If you explore the handbrake forums you will find a number of threads about TV 2.0 encoding - I have found that using the constant quality settings at 70% gives me a great DVD using the Advanced settings being developed in these forum threads. I used to use 2 pass at a calculated bitrate of 0.18 bits per pixel, but find constant quality gives me a better product.

It does take longer than even a 2 pass but I really only want to do these once. Actually watching all my TV series box sets now that I can put them on tv and have them nicely organized by program-season-episode.

[kagharaht]

Just did my test on my Superbit Fifth Element. Forget 2 pass, just go for 66-68 Constant Quality. The job will get done much faster and the results are awesome. :D

[thunderclap]

Just did my test on my Superbit Fifth Element. Forget 2 pass, just go for 66-68 Constant Quality. The job will get done much faster and the results are awesome. :D

How is the file size?

[kagharaht]

How is the file size?

I did a 66 of Beowulf, came out 2.01gb, movie is 1:54 long. Setting at 68 came out at 2.85gb.

I also did 66 with Contact, came out 2.37gb, movie is 2:29 long.

I'm still playing around Fifth Element, but I may end up doing it at 66 in the end for most everything.

[KakaduDreamer]

I did a 66 of Beowulf, came out 2.01gb, movie is 1:54 long. Setting at 68 came out at 2.85gb.

I also did 66 with Contact, came out 2.37gb, movie is 2:29 long.

I'm still playing around Fifth Element, but I may end up doing it at 66 in the end for most everything.

Perhaps a dumb question but...what happens if you set the Constant Quality value to 75%? 85%? Dear God, what about...100% ? Of course, I'm expecting the file size to be huge but at those higher percentage values will the encoding produce a file with an output at or near DVD quality?

Just wondering... You know, before I start dabbling in using this CQ setting vs. Avg Bitrate @ 2500, the latter which I've been using while ripping + encoding nearly 50 DVDs.

For the record, I'm quite pleased with the default Apple TV preset options in HB, but when using those I have noticed some "softness" on some movies, in certain scenes...so anything I can do to push it closer to the original DVD viewing experience, I'm willing to consider other options... And with the number of DVDs I've already ripped/encoded, I'm inclined to only go back and re-do the "exceptional" ones -- LOTR, Master and Commnder, Gladiator, etc.

[kagharaht]

Perhaps a dumb question but...what happens if you set the Constant Quality value to 75%? 85%? Dear God, what about...100% ? Of course, I'm expecting the file size to be huge but at those higher percentage values will the encoding produce a file with an output at or near DVD quality?

Just wondering... You know, before I start dabbling in using this CQ setting vs. Avg Bitrate @ 2500, the latter which I've been using while ripping + encoding nearly 50 DVDs.

For the record, I'm quite pleased with the default Apple TV preset options in HB, but when using those I have noticed some "softness" on some movies, in certain scenes...so anything I can do to push it closer to the original DVD viewing experience, I'm willing to consider other options... And with the number of DVDs I've already ripped/encoded, I'm inclined to only go back and re-do the "exceptional" ones -- LOTR, Master and Commnder, Gladiator, etc.

The file size really vary like crazy using CQ ( CRF h264 ). So some mediocre films can end up 2.9 to 3gb at time while some good action can be much lower. So if you want to be consistent 2 pass AVB is the way to go around 1800 - 2500 and keep file size low.

[dynaflash]

The constant quality slider is linear, but the actual values passed to x264 is very non linear. So, for dvd 70% - 72% is generally considered transparent to source. Go above that at all and sizes balloon like crazy for little or no return. At 100% you will likely end up with a file greater than the source in size and bitrate. Crazy I know, but true. Realize CRF leaves x264 to do whatever it has to to get to a given visual quality. So a very grainy, and complex movie can end up with a very high bitrate for the same quality as a clean source which end up at half the bitrate. Using 68% I have ended up with bitrates from 1800 to 4000. So ymmv. typically though they end up in the 2000 to 2500 range.

For grainy / noisy sources, using weak denoise in the picture settings will bring it back down very nicely.

[Scarpad]

I mainly rip tv shows for my ATV, but I want to maintain the ability to watch them on my Ipod's and Itouch, I find if I use the Ipod Hirez setting with anamorphic Checked, 2 pass, with 1500 bitrate thay look beautiful on my ATV, and Hour show clocks in under 600 megs, and fantastic on all my ipods, to me this is the sweet spot to maintain compatibility, my ATV is hooked up to a 46" Sony Bravia LCD and upconverted to 1080p.

[thunderclap]

...my ATV is hooked up to a 46" Sony Bravia LCD and upconverted to 1080p.

Your television handles the upconversion? I thought it was primarily the HD players that did it.

[Scarpad]

Your television handles the upconversion? I thought it was primarily the HD players that did it.

It Depends if you set the ATV to 720p then the set will handle the upconversion, if you set the ATV to 1080 p then it handles te upconversion.

[Cave Man]

I ripped my DVD of Fifth Element in Superbit format.

{Drool...}

[thunderclap]

It Depends if you set the ATV to 720p then the set will handle the upconversion, if you set the ATV to 1080 p then it handles te upconversion.

Is it better to let the ATV handle the upconversion or the television? I was originally going to hook mine up through the component input since I don't have any available HDMI ports available on the television. But then I read the ATV won't display at 1080p. However, I also read that some users experience poor picture quality from converted DVD's when using the HDMI port and letting the ATV handle the upconversion.

So which is better for converted DVD's? 1080p HDMI with the ATV handling the upconversion, or 720p component with the television handling the upconversion?

[thunderclap]

I find the Apple TV setting to be very good, but it is a softer image to my eyes.

As a newbie to this, I ripped Star Wars into Apple TV, but I left out the subtitles. When we got to the cantina scene with Greedo, I realized the subtitles were missing, so we switched to the DVD. This type of switch showed me that there was a clear difference in sharpness. I have an Oppo 980, which does a nice job upconverting. Sharpness on the TV and player are set to zero.

Apple TV just seems soft to me. OTOH, maybe I just need to add sharpness to the Apple TV in general. When I rent SD movies, I have to increase sharpness on those in order to feel as though the image is not blurry.

Anyone else think that ripped SD DVDs are kind of soft?

You're not the only one. I just got my ATV today and I've been doing some tests with it. I'm streaming the media to the ATV instead of synching. The ATV is connected via component and I've tried both 720p and 1080i but both result in a slightly software picture. I haven't had a chance to try an HDMI connection yet though. That may improve the quality. Anyone?

The way I've been converting my DVD's is ripping them using Mac the Ripper the then encoding with Handbrake because of the possibility of incorporating subtitles and two audio tracks (main soundtrack and commentary). I've set the video bitrate to H.264, 2-pass encode (first fast) with an average bitrate of 2000. Does anyone think bumping it up to 2500 will help the image at all?