Can anyone justify buying a high-end turntable these days?

[Benjamindaines]

I know that a lot of people, me included, love the sound / feel of vinyls, but as we all know in order to get real good sound you need to spend a lot of money to get a good turntable (1000+). But considering the fact that CDs have a much wider dynamic range (96db VS 40db) and don't degrade each time you play them; could you justify spending that much money on a turntable when CDs / players are so much cheaper?

[nickster9224]

yes because in cds they are so compressed you dont get the sound range you do with vinyl.

[Blue Velvet]

yes because in cds they are so compressed you dont get the sound range you do with vinyl.

Er, no. Noise floor in vinyl is far higher than CD. What you're referring to is compression techniques used in production which has nothing to do with CDs at all...

Since I can't buy or store vinyl of the music I like, it really doesn't leave me much choice.

[Hello.there]

What I miss most is the smell of new vinyl :o Remember, buying your album, carrying it home, taking off the cellophane....hmmm, the smell.....carefully taking out the inner sleeve and sliding out that shiny black circle of loveliness. I think I'm going to cry.

[howard]

quality on paper should always be irrelevant.

I can't afford a high-end turntable, i have a cheap one and a small collection of LPs. Even so, there is a certain liveliness that still comes out when I play it. Because of the lack of quality of my components, who knows, the sound is probably "worse" than a cd. Its just another way of listening and if you enjoy it then you can always justify it.

[sabocat]

I would take issue with a number of assumptions in your post. 1. Quality vinyl, if properly cared for, will last longer than cd's. I still have originals from the 50's and 60's which sound excellent. Of course they have been handled with care, and I clean all my records. Clean records decay very little over time. I'm in the process of loading my originals onto a hard drive. I will make copies for daily play, and save my vinyl as the archive. We did the same with cassette tapes back in the 70's and 80's. 2. In terms of background noise, with a good system you get very little if any hiss. 3. There are plenty of entry-level TT's to be had for $700-$1,000, such as the Rega P3, the Music Hall 7.1, the Pro-ject and Clearaudio entry levels, etc. Excellent sprung tables such as vintage Thorens, AR, and Linn, can be bought used on the Audiogon website for cheap. They can be upgraded. 4. The loudness wars have led to lousy cd production, destroying much mid-range info. for harsh metallic highs and boomy bass. See the Steve Hoffmann website for more info.

I have an expensive stereo system with a budget TT, a Revolver Rebel with a Grado Gold cart. Total price: $550.00. It still beats my $1,500.00 Cayin CDT-23 tube CD player hands down, in terms of soundstage imaging, "air", mid-range info., and tight bass. I run a Quad 606 amp with a Conrad Johnson tube pre-amp, and Dali Helicon 400 loudspeakers. I'm currently upgrading my TT for a used VPI Scout for $1,300.00 and a used Clearaudio wood virtuoso cartridge for $350.00, money well spent IMHO.

[sabocat]

Along with the contemporary resurgence of vinyl playback technology,
vinyl as a potentially enjoyable listening experience still has its
detractors, who imagine the bad old days of plastic turntables, poor-
quality vinyl, and tinny, two-dimensional cartridges. A few people
quoted in the article below could not fathom the resurgence in vinyl
sales among the youth, citing static, snaps and pops as a drawback to
the otherwise enticing ambience of vinyl records. That may have been
true twenty, thirty years ago, when all people did was swipe their
records with a discwasher and run their finger under the stylus to
clean off the grunge. The audiophile subculture has seen marked
advances in affordable record cleaning technology in recent years.

But most important, cartridge, tonearm, and especially turntable
design has made a radical leap in the past thirty years, mainly among
smaller, family-owned, high-end companies such as Thorens, VPI, and
Grado. Many of the recent technological advances in vinyl audio
reproduction have enabled more affordable components to be passed
along to entry-level equipment, such as ceramic platters, which
resemble vinyl and thus absorb and dampen at the same frequency,
small stand alone motors for quiet and accurate running, and
incredibly sensitive yet rigid tonearms made out of aluminum or
ceramic, as well as a shift away from finicky sprung tables such as
those made famous by Thorens, Linn, and AR, towards smaller tables to
dissipate vibratory harmonic distortion more quickly, such as the
earlier Revolver, or the present day Rega, Oracle, and Funk Firm.

Tthe main trend has been among turntable companies such as VPI,
Clearaudio, Roksan, and a host of others, who go with heavy split or
single plinth design, sometimes sandwiching steel, lead, or mdf,
between wood and more mdf, a heavier table designed to dampen
vibratory response, which of course creates harmonic distortion. See
http://www.turntable-kits.com/design_philosophy.htm There are also
entire tables made out of ceramic, such as the Clearaudio.

Quite possibly the primary cultural aspect of the resurgence of vinyl
has to do with the spread of Hip Hop culture, where turntables and
vinyl records become a musical instrument unto themselves. Direct
drive turntables such as Technics have seen a steady move upward in
sales over the years as a result, such that they are also highly
valued these days even among some audiophiles. The new entry-level
trend is a meld of TT and computer technology: turntables with usb
ports so people can download vinyl onto their hard drives and make
their own mp3's. Of course there are still those Linn fanatics who
insist that sprung tables are necessary to create both a larger
soundstage and more dynamic playback, but they are quickly fading
into a minority fringe in the wake of the VPI's and Clearaudios. Even
Thorens has a new line based on higher density designs.

Greg McD

Forget MP3s, some teens turning to vinyl records

By RICHARD L. ELDREDGE
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 03/07/08

On a recent afternoon 15-year-old Graham Saylor popped into Decatur
CD to check out new releases. But he sprinted right past the CDs,
stopping, instead, at the six bins of vinyl records.

Saylor prefers to listen to his favorite new acts, such as TV on the
Radio and the Black Keys, on the black 12-inch platters. Some
classmates at Decatur High School have become vinyl fans as well.

So what attracts the teens to a musical format that was proclaimed
landfill fodder years before they were born?

"I just dig vinyls more. The tone is warmer. I'm not much of a
digital guy," explains Saylor.

Building his collection since sixth grade, he bought a turntable on
eBay for $60 and inherited audio equipment from his dad, Lance.

Saylor, according to last year's Nielsen SoundScan numbers, is hardly
alone. The retail sales service reported that 990,000 vinyl albums
were sold in the United States last year, up 15 percent from 858,000
in 2006. That accounts for about 2 percent of all music sold,
compared to CDs and downloads. Still, it's impressive for a format
that began a sales slide in 1983.

Decatur CD owner Warren Hudson is taking notice. In December he added
one bin of vinyl. By February, he had six and was scouting out space
to add more.

"I honestly never thought we'd see vinyl in stores again," he said.
"But a lot of our customers are kids who never bought records the
first time around. "

Music Direct, which specializes in remastered vinyl and record player
sales, reports its vinyl sales are up 300 percent since 2005.

"This year, we will see more albums being released on vinyl since the
year 1980," says Music Direct rep Josh Bizar. "If you're a band that
skews to young people, a vinyl version is a necessity."

Indie acts such as Vampire Weekend, Cat Power and Atlanta's Black
Lips routinely issue a vinyl version of their releases, along with
MP3 and CD editions. Some artists even offer coupons for free
downloads of albums when you buy the vinyl format.

And while Saylor downloads music, it can't compare to his vintage
vinyl copy of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon," which had been
stored in his grandmother's attic in upstate New York.

Last year, Barbara Notaro, 60, a lifelong rock fan who attended
Woodstock, let her grandson take "Dark Side" and 200 other old albums
back to Atlanta.

"It's totally my prized possession," Saylor said.

He finds listening to records with friends more fun. "Nobody is ever
going to look at your iTunes library and say 'Nice collection you got
there.' "

Lance Saylor, 44, supports his son's vinyl fascination, but says he
won't be returning to records.

"Why would you go back to listening to static?" he said. But after
picking up a piece of shrink-wrapped vinyl, the dad's perspective
softens. "The artwork is what I miss. There would be certain records
where you would memorize every image, every letter."

Big record companies like Columbia and Atlantic are also getting back
into the vinyl groove as demand increases. One glitch: Most major
labels sold off or converted their vinyl pressing plants decades ago.
So new pressings of their classic catalogs, including albums by
Aretha Franklin and Bob Dylan, are being licensed out to boutique
vinyl companies like Sundazed, 4 Men With Beards and Classic Records.

Classic Records is offering detailed re-creations of masterpieces
such as 1959's "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis, with original artwork.
Price tag: $30.

At Wuxtry Records in Decatur, owner Mark Methe and employee Richard
Kuykendall have taken note of vinyl's quiet comeback but point out
the 30-year-old store and its loyal vinyl-loving customers have never
gone away.

Most of Decatur High senior Breton Randall Jordan's collection came
from Wuxtry, including classic albums from Richard Hell, Devo and
Black Flag.

Jordan cites the shop's "vinyl coolness" and long ties to the Georgia
music scene as reasons he buys there.

While audiophiles argue that vinyl's sound is superior to compressed
MP3 files and the sanitized digital mastering on CDs, Methe won't be
dragged into the debate. "I can tell you this: Vinyl sounds awfully
good. And we wouldn't be here 30 years later if our customers didn't
agree."

Customer Andy Forbes, 33, of Little Five Points, has dragged his
record collection and turntable through various moves over the years.

"It's the sound a needle makes when it lands on an album," said
Forbes. "There's nothing quite like it."

He also likes the artwork and the lyrics on albums. Notable Peachtree
Road resident Sir Elton John agrees.

"As a fan, I've always wanted to learn more about the artist and
where they recorded it and who played on it," John told the AJC last
year. "I was always sitting there with the gatefold sleeve. I do the
same thing now with CDs. I just need a magnifying glass now!"

B-52's frontman Fred Schneider lugs vinyl from his vast collection to
his weekly Sirius Satellite Radio show, where he plays 12-inch
remixes and collectibles from his rare "outsider music" stash.

"There are just so many things out on vinyl that were never issued in
any other format," he said, adding that "Funplex," the Bs new album,
will be issued on vinyl.

Other record enthusiasts are buying turntables with USB cables for
their laptops. The unit enables users to burn old vinyl onto CDs.

Collector Andy Forbes concedes the result is a little, well, weird.

Says Forbes, laughing: "There's just something a little out of place
about hearing the snaps and pops of a vinyl recording in your car."

[Silencio]

Very nice posts, Sabocat. I'm still rocking my Dual 721 deck (one of the spring-loaded 19790s dinosaurs along the lines of the classic AR and Thorens turntables); when it finally bites it I'll probably get an entry-level Rega or Pro-ject, both of which are under US$400.

I too prefer listening to my music on vinyl, even if the majority of my listening is done in digital form. My CDs only get use when I stick 'em in my computer to rip them. I might as well get rid of my CD changer as I haven't used the thing in literally years.

One other nice trend from many indie labels is to include free digital downloads of an album when you purchase it in vinyl. Great way to get the best of both worlds.

[killmoms]

I'm planning on getting one of the newer Rega P3's (along with an Onkyo A955 and a pair of Monitor Audio Silver RS6's), once I move back to VA and save up some cash. So, it might be a while.

But I definitely think it's still worth it.

(Probably going to replace the Onkyo with an Exposure 2010s and Graham Slee Era Gold Mark V phono pre-amp, and maybe the upgraded power supply for the Rega. Oh, and a Rega Apollo CD player too. Why not?)

[netdog]

I don't even need a CD player anymore. I just rip to Apple Lossless with the DVD writer and put the discs in the recycle bin. Physical media is so 20th century.

If I had a massive collection of LPs, I would probably buy a used high-end turntable off of eBay (along with a good ADC), rip my collection, and put the hardware up for sale again.

[Benjamindaines]

I don't even need a CD player anymore. I just rip to Apple Lossless with the DVD writer and put the discs in the recycle bin. Physical media is so 20th century.

If I had a massive collection of LPs, I would probably buy a used high-end turntable off of eBay (along with a good ADC), rip my collection, and put the hardware up for sale again.

When you "rip" your LPs to MP3 dont you lose all the analog sound (warmness, etc)? Wouldn't it just make more sense to buy a CD if you're just going to MP3 it?

[Blue Velvet]

(warmness, etc)?

Read: distortion. ;)

[sabocat]

When you "rip" your LPs to MP3 dont you lose all the analog sound (warmness, etc)? Wouldn't it just make more sense to buy a CD if you're just going to MP3 it?

Some people claim that cd's made from ripped vinyl sound better than redbook cd's. If you go with relatively uncompressed FLAC or other files, and have a good dac, it makes sense to rip from vinyl. The main idea is portability. I listen to vinyl in my home, but, well, can't rig it up in my car, can I?

[netdog]

When you "rip" your LPs to MP3 dont you lose all the analog sound (warmness, etc)? Wouldn't it just make more sense to buy a CD if you're just going to MP3 it?

While they may be some merit to your point, I certainly wouldn't rip anything to an MP3 or other lossy format. A really good ADC can yield a nice sound, albeit sampled at 44.1 Khz. On the playback end, a good DAC and high quality tube amp can be of great help in smearing the stuttering of a digital sample rate and restoring some analog musicality.

Now, for your last part, I haven't bought an LP since 1983(?). I know, however, that some still do and for them, I would say that a high-end turntable is a very worthwhile investment if you accept the premise that buying the high-grade vinyl pressings today is worthwhile too.

[sabocat]

While they may be some merit to your point, I certainly wouldn't rip anything to an MP3 or other lossy format. A really good ADC can yield a nice sound, albeit sampled at 44.1 Khz. On the playback end, a good DAC and high quality tube amp can be of great help in smearing the stuttering of a digital sample rate and restoring some analog musicality.

Now, for your last part, I haven't bought an LP since 1983(?). I know, however, that some still do and for them, I would say that a high-end turntable is a very worthwhile investment if you accept the premise that buying the high-grade vinyl pressings today is worthwhile too.

Well you know what they say, garbage in garbage out. Check out this short video on youtube:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

[Shotglass]

I have an expensive stereo system with a budget TT, a Revolver Rebel with a Grado Gold cart. Total price: $550.00. It still beats my $1,500.00 Cayin CDT-23 tube CD player hands down, in terms of soundstage imaging, "air", mid-range info., and tight bass. I run a Quad 606 amp with a Conrad Johnson tube pre-amp, and Dali Helicon 400 loudspeakers. I'm currently upgrading my TT for a used VPI Scout for $1,300.00 and a used Clearaudio wood virtuoso cartridge for $350.00, money well spent IMHO.*drool* Pictures, please.

[sabocat]

*drool* Pictures, please.

Sorry, the only pic I have now is the TT. I'll try to provide links for pics of the separates. The Dali's are absolutely bootiful. Cherry wood finish.

http://www.dali.dk/us/page245.aspx?sub=213&prod=248

The quad looks like a concrete block, and the cj just looks like a piece of air-brushed aluminum. The Cayin has internal tubes, more aluminum.

[carlgo]

Say, record freaks, if you are actually serious about your turntable you need to check this out!!!!!!!
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/952/

As you can see, you need this to play your Best of Nancy Sinatra records.

[sabocat]

http://www.oracle-audio.com/photo.html

Here's some more TT porn. Drool away.

[killmoms]

Sorry, the only pic I have now is the TT. I'll try to provide links for pics of the separates. The Dali's are absolutely bootiful. Cherry wood finish.

http://www.dali.dk/us/page245.aspx?sub=213&prod=248

The quad looks like a concrete block, and the cj just looks like a piece of air-brushed aluminum. The Cayin has internal tubes, more aluminum.

4-ohm speakers, eh? Those must be fun to drive. Maybe someday, when I have enough money to drop on every component in the system, I'll move up to lower impedance speakers like those. They certainly look lovely. I wonder how they compare sound-wise to a pair of Thiel CS3.5's (or their newer 3.6).

For now though, I think the Monitor Audios I've picked out offer a good balance between quality and affordability for someone just starting off. Now if only I could afford them! Good thing I'm the patient type.

[sabocat]

4-ohm speakers, eh? Those must be fun to drive. Maybe someday, when I have enough money to drop on every component in the system, I'll move up to lower impedance speakers like those. They certainly look lovely. I wonder how they compare sound-wise to a pair of Thiel CS3.5's (or their newer 3.6).

For now though, I think the Monitor Audios I've picked out offer a good balance between quality and affordability for someone just starting off. Now if only I could afford them! Good thing I'm the patient type.

Well the Quad is quite a workhorse. I've had it for 18 years, along with my vandersteen 2's, which succumbed to dry rot. Need to get them refoamed. Anyhow, the Dali's are about as efficient as the Thiels, and sound MUCH better. I almost bought a pair of thiel cs 1.6's, but opted for the Dali's. The Thiels are old testament speakers. They are very revealing in their omniscience, and not forgiving in the least. The Dali's are warm and inherently musical. And they have awesome bass!!

[g6120]

Er, no. Noise floor in vinyl is far higher than CD. What you're referring to is compression techniques used in production which has nothing to do with CDs at all...

Since I can't buy or store vinyl of the music I like, it really doesn't leave me much choice.

BV has a good point. I still own a high end turntable and lots of vinyl but rarely play them anymore. Vinyl does have a tendency to sound warmer a lot of the time. To answer the original question, No I don't think it is justified to buy a high end turntable anymore. The CD Audio standard is 16 bits/44.1 kHz and what I think you mean by compressed is actually loss of musical information at that resolution. The loss may be so slight that you can't hear it but many times we can feel it. The solution is already hear. With the advent of DVD-Audio and SACD we have digital formats that are lossless and preserve the true noise floor. That is what I would invest in instead of a turntable, a good universal DVD-Audio/SACD player. You might want to look into Blu Ray too. These are just my opinions based upon my exposure to high end audio world through my cousin whao is a reviewer of equipment. I get to hear a lot of stuff and learn about high end audio. I own a nice Marantz universal player and a Rotel preamp processor and an Anthem amp with Monitor Audio speakers and it sounds great!

[sabocat]

BV has a good point. I still own a high end turntable and lots of vinyl but rarely play them anymore. Vinyl does have a tendency to sound warmer a lot of the time. To answer the original question, No I don't think it is justified to buy a high end turntable anymore. The CD Audio standard is 16 bits/44.1 kHz and what I think you mean by compressed is actually loss of musical information at that resolution. The loss may be so slight that you can't hear it but many times we can feel it. The solution is already hear. With the advent of DVD-Audio and SACD we have digital formats that are lossless and preserve the true noise floor. That is what I would invest in instead of a turntable, a good universal DVD-Audio/SACD player. You might want to look into Blu Ray too. These are just my opinions based upon my exposure to high end audio world through my cousin whao is a reviewer of equipment. I get to hear a lot of stuff and learn about high end audio. I own a nice Marantz universal player and a Rotel preamp processor and an Anthem amp with Monitor Audio speakers and it sounds great!

what kind of TT do you have? Would you consider selling it and/or your record collection?

[Killyp]

I'm planning on getting one of the newer Rega P3's (along with an Onkyo A955 and a pair of Monitor Audio Silver RS6's), once I move back to VA and save up some cash. So, it might be a while.

But I definitely think it's still worth it.

(Probably going to replace the Onkyo with an Exposure 2010s and Graham Slee Era Gold Mark V phono pre-amp, and maybe the upgraded power supply for the Rega. Oh, and a Rega Apollo CD player too. Why not?)

Good matching. The Rega record decks are brilliant (that's why I own one :P).

It's only worth buying a high-end record deck nowadays if you really can afford it. If not, a Project Debut III will give you a fantastic sound (better than 99% of CD players).

BTW, ripping from Vinyl > CD does NOT produce a 'better' sound. Vinyl is better because it doesn't have a limited 'resolution' like CD. It would be like taking a picture with film because the image produced is so much better defined, and then taking a picture of the image produced with a digital camera... completely pointless.

[sabocat]

Good matching. The Rega record decks are brilliant (that's why I own one :P).

It's only worth buying a high-end record deck nowadays if you really can afford it. If not, a Project Debut III will give you a fantastic sound (better than 99% of CD players).

BTW, ripping from Vinyl > CD does NOT produce a 'better' sound. Vinyl is better because it doesn't have a limited 'resolution' like CD. It would be like taking a picture with film because the image produced is so much better defined, and then taking a picture of the image produced with a digital camera... completely pointless.

Hmm, I don't think that was quite my point. Rather, I was saying that cd's ripped from vinyl sound better than redbook cd's, at least in some peoples' minds. For me, the idea of ripping vinyl to cd serves two purposes--portability and being able to listen to cd's in my car which are otherwise out of production and unavailable. I have a lot of independent label lp's which were never produced in cd format.

Do you have a P3? I wouldn't mind getting a hold of a used P9 one of these days!!!

[bartelby]

I have a Pro-Ject Debut III and a the basic Pro-Ject Preamp. The preamp is out for modification at the moment. Blackgate capacitors are being installed, silver wiring and silver connectors. I'm getting a custom made silver patch cable with lockable plugs too.

Then a new tone arm, cartridge and wiring for the turntable.
When that's come back and burned in my old NAD amp is off for upgrades.

With all the upgrades vinyl will kick the crap out of CDs and the system will give systems a lot more expensive a good run for their money.

[Blue Velvet]

Vinyl is better because it doesn't have a limited 'resolution' like CD.

Could you please explain what this unsubstantiated claim means?

[Sesshi]

Oh - it's been substantiated lots of times. I'm sure you can Google something.

To match an analog recording to a degree of faithfulness that trained-ear audiophiles (and bearing in mind what I read on the Internet, I'd say 99.99% of self-proclaimed audiophiles posting on forums are not) can appreciate in terms of sonic nuances, you really have to step up to 24/96... or better if you can. SNR takes a back seat to resolution and, well the aforementioned nuance in an analog recording - it's a different kind of quality. But the mechanics of getting consistently good playback from vinyl is such a tedious experience that I've made a herculean effort to get it digital (of course, at higher bitrates than 16/44.1) ASAP.

Just like many things - an antique car for example, there is also a certain je ne sais quoi about the rituals of vinyl playback. And many 'audiophiles' do it for the same reason as many of you Apple users do, even if their kit or playback methods don't yield the best results from their vinyl - to be different, no matter how inferior the practical results. To them, and their particular 'delusion' if you like, it's better.

I have a Mitchell Orbe as my main deck with a custom-built phono stage and it would not be wrong to say that watching it play music is totally different and intangibly more pleasant than hitting the Play button on my wireless MCE keyboard. And one could successfully argue that music is all about the intangibles.

However in a readily everyday-accessible sense CD/digital-file playback is far superior, both in terms of immediacy and no-fuss-achievable quality. To really appreciate vinyl and to get the most out of it, you have to be painfully nerdy about it - and I'm not, and nor are most people.

[Blue Velvet]

Oh - it's been substantiated lots of times. I'm sure you can Google something.


Hmmm. My first love was audio engineering when I was much younger and I still know one end of a RIAA curve from another. ;)

I fully understand and appreciate the tangible intangibles from vinyl collections; I used to have one myself. But I'm also wary of the pseudo-science that audiophiles use to justify their prejudices, particularly when words like 'warmer' or 'resolution' get thrown around.

[Unspeaked]

Hmmm. My first love was audio engineering when I was much younger and I still know one end of a RIAA curve from another. ;)

I fully understand and appreciate the tangible intangibles from vinyl collections; I used to have one myself. But I'm also wary of the pseudo-science that audiophiles use to justify their prejudices, particularly when words like 'warmer' or 'resolution' get thrown around.

So true.

I love vinyl as much as the next guy, but I'm grounded enough in reality to admit that it's because of the beautiful artwork, the feel of the record in my hands and the crackles and pops. I intentionally use cheap turntables, in fact.

[Sesshi]

Hmmm. My first love was audio engineering when I was much younger and I still know one end of a RIAA curve from another. ;)

I fully understand and appreciate the tangible intangibles from vinyl collections; I used to have one myself. But I'm also wary of the pseudo-science that audiophiles use to justify their prejudices, particularly when words like 'warmer' or 'resolution' get thrown around.

A lot of it - especially given the state of many audiophiles vinyl, regardless of what they believe - is 'guff' if you compare it to the actual practical results you get.

As the above poster said, the crackles and pops which are a facet of most people's collections. If the vinyl you inherited or acquired was/is kept in obsessive storage condition and you rig for optimum playback - then there can be certain audio merits to vinyl.

But it's fundamentally impractical for regular use compared to what is currently available, no matter how many valve amps, or in my case DSP-laced (sacrilege, I hear the audiophiles say) phono stages you throw at it. I tend to confine my use to 'atmosphere'... lounging in the living room, sipping a demi-tasse, reading Sartre with a contemplative knit on my brow.

[sabocat]

Sesshi wrote:

<As the above poster said, the crackles and pops which are a facet of most people's collections. If the vinyl you inherited or acquired was/is kept in obsessive storage condition and you rig for optimum playback - then there can be certain audio merits to vinyl.>

Well I don't know about obsessive. It's simply a question of care and mindfulness. It really does not take too much effort. I've found a few good products which work, are not expensive, and whenever I buy a new album I clean it and put it inside a good inner sleeve. Then before I play it I use a light dry brush to clean off the surface dust, and make sure I keep the stylus clean. One does not need to be obsessive, just careful. whenever I buy old albums at garage or estate sales I always clean them before I play them. Some are not well kept and need a few deep cleans, but stuff which is really scratched I don't even bother with.

I don't claim to be some pretentious audiophile, but I do know that more of my vinyl records sound better than most of my cd's, unless they are chesky cd's or some other high quality recording. Whenever I put on, say a Coltrane cd, and play the same thing on vinyl, I find myself going back to the vinyl more often than not. I have about 600 LP's and about 1000 cd's, but these days I'm mainly buying vinyl online. I sure cannot wait to get my new VPI!!:rolleyes:

[rockosmodurnlif]

So I guess all you vinyl guys don't take your music on the road ...

[g6120]

what kind of TT do you have? Would you consider selling it and/or your record collection?

Never! I love my TT and my vinyl. I just wouldn't spend $1,000 today on a TT.
Mine is an old Thorens BC MkII with a Grace tonearm and a Sumiko BluePoint cartridge. Sounds great run through my old Luxman receiver!

[Killyp]

I fully understand and appreciate the tangible intangibles from vinyl collections; I used to have one myself. But I'm also wary of the pseudo-science that audiophiles use to justify their prejudices, particularly when words like 'warmer' or 'resolution' get thrown around.

I completely agree in some senses, the whole 'warmer' thing is IMO only the case because vinyl tends to have more low end and a slightly softer upper mid (as RIAA curves aren't always perfect).

Resolution is not something which is 'debatable' though. Vinyl definitely has a higher resolution, and time after time, vinyl outperforms CD (even with some of the best DACs) when tested.

[Blue Velvet]

Vinyl definitely has a higher resolution, and time after time, vinyl outperforms CD (even with some of the best DACs) when tested.


Resolution in what sense? What do you mean by resolution? Do you mean its theoretical sampling rate? Not that anyone here can hear the difference between 48khz/24 and 44.1/22khz. Its non-linear frequency response?

There are so many things vinyl is simply incapable of reproducing simply because of the mechanics of it. Even the obvious quality differences between the tracks on the edge of the record and those towards the centre due to velocity differences between stylus and groove are usually passed over... and most laughable of all is those claiming the same digital master tape will produce better results through a process of variable-quality stampers and pressers than an accurate conversion.

And what testing is that then? Blind A-B listening tests where 2nd harmonic distortion, the type favoured by those beloved tube gear nuts, imparts the warmth and richness that they seek? It sounds nice but its not accurate.

I like vinyl, miss all sorts of things about it, but I'm not blind to its failings. Next minute, someone is going to start talking about esoteric cables without a shred of tested evidence.

[chedda]

I like the tactile feel and ceremony of records. Once you lift the needle onto the record thats it you let it play out. Albums were made with 2 sides 2 different experiences often. There is no shuffle no skipping no bonus track the album was made as a whole to be listened to in its entirety. The CD culture gave us disposable remote control listening. The album artwork is less inspiring and i believe the experience as a whole is diminished. I am currently recording my vinyl to my itunes library using aiff CD quality. My library stands at about 60 days 16,000 tunes and about 650 GB. This recording in itself is enjoyable and gives me an archive which is available to my ipod and CD player in the car.I also scan the front and back of the sleeve using photoshop to merge 2 scans. Using my Nokia E60 with sailing clicker on my lounge HDTV which uses my itunes shared library gives me an extra way to enjoy my old records especially with cover flow its just like digging in the crates digitally.PS i sold my mixer and 1 sl1200 technics turntable which was a heartwrench. It's good to keep one foot in the analog world and i still buy vinyl sometimes if anyone is interested try recordmania.

[sabocat]

Blue Velvet wrote:

<I like vinyl, miss all sorts of things about it, but I'm not blind to its failings. Next minute, someone is going to start talking about esoteric cables without a shred of tested evidence.>

You'll love this one BV.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/a...ter-cable-and/

[sabocat]

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/



Sorry about the incomplete link. Try the above instead.

[sabocat]

Geez. The url was too long. Here's the article in black and white.

Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers

Posted Mar 3rd 2008 8:03PM by Nilay Patel:mad:
Filed under: Home Entertainment
We've always believed that the perceived quality boost that comes from using high-end cables is really just a trick of the mind (read: justifying the ridiculous cost of premium cables to yourself) -- if you've dropped enough cash, you can probably hear anything you want. Still, our belief is one thing -- cold hard proof is another, and it looks like a group of 12 self-professed "audiophiles" recently couldn't tell the difference between Monster 1000 speaker cables and plain old coat hangers. Yeah, coat hangers. The group was A-Bing different cables, and unbeknownst to them, the engineer running the test swapped out a set of cables for coat hangers with soldered-on speaker connections. Not a single one was then able to tell the difference between the Monster Cable and the hangers, and all agreed that the hangers sounded excellent. No wonder Monster has to rig HD displays. Still, we bet people still fall for the hype -- oh hey, if you're looking for the ultimate in sound, we've got half a meter of oxygen-free, triple-wrapped double-insulated Sonically Shielded AmpliSized Egyptian Llama cable here that we'll part ways with for just a couple grand.

[sabocat]

And here's an interesting site for the DIY audiophile:

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/cables.htm

[Benjamindaines]

I think it's common knowledge that Monster Cable is over priced.

[Killyp]

Resolution in what sense? What do you mean by resolution? Do you mean its theoretical sampling rate? Not that anyone here can hear the difference between 48khz/24 and 44.1/22khz. Its non-linear frequency response?

There are so many things vinyl is simply incapable of reproducing simply because of the mechanics of it. Even the obvious quality differences between the tracks on the edge of the record and those towards the centre due to velocity differences between stylus and groove are usually passed over... and most laughable of all is those claiming the same digital master tape will produce better results through a process of variable-quality stampers and pressers than an accurate conversion.

And what testing is that then? Blind A-B listening tests where 2nd harmonic distortion, the type favoured by those beloved tube gear nuts, imparts the warmth and richness that they seek? It sounds nice but its not accurate.

I like vinyl, miss all sorts of things about it, but I'm not blind to its failings. Next minute, someone is going to start talking about esoteric cables without a shred of tested evidence.

Actually when it comes to resolution I was talking about the vertical resolution of the sound (ie, the bit-depth of a CD). CDs are 16 bit, which means there are 65536 possible positions the wave can be in (although you probably already know this, I'm just saying in case anyone reading doesn't). Vinyl has, theoretically, half the number of molecules across the width of a groove.

Although having said that, there are audible differences between 44.1 KHz audio and 96 KHz audio (to my ears anyway). I have done double blind tests and I can hear the difference.

RE the harmonics, true, but you also get harmonics produced by CDs at audible levels, as a result of the dithering used at the mastering stage, and yes it is audible when compared to mastering tapes.

And don't get my started on cables. Nobody has ever managed to prove any audible difference between cables, there is next to no measurable difference and IMO it's a waste of money spending any more than £10-20 on a good interconnect or speaker cable (mains flex does the job fine).

[Benjamindaines]

So, I have an equalizer (hardware not software) which is pretty high end and since I don't have a turn table at the moment how do you suggest using the equalizer to "simulate" the sound of vinyl as close as possible?

[sabocat]

So, I have an equalizer (hardware not software) which is pretty high end and since I don't have a turn table at the moment how do you suggest using the equalizer to "simulate" the sound of vinyl as close as possible?

You can't. But you can get a good TT without spending a lot of money.

[Killyp]

So, I have an equalizer (hardware not software) which is pretty high end and since I don't have a turn table at the moment how do you suggest using the equalizer to "simulate" the sound of vinyl as close as possible?

No, that can't be done. The detail has already been lost before it's even got to your CD player (by it being on a CD). You can't use an EQ to bring back the detail, only to change the tonality of the sound...

[Su Ra]

I'm fed up with digital music (well, a little bit!).
I've got as huge collection of iTunes and MP3 music. I've also copied a lot of my CDs over to iTunes. The problem is, well alot of sounds lousy, even when digitizing properly. So I connected my Mac to my expensive old amp and passed the sound to a great set of floor speakers, but still the highs are clipped, middles sounds muddy and instruments aren't well defined. Gheez.
So...
I purchased a push-pull tube amp (no kidding, a reasonably priced YAQIN, see: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140358019475&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT), connected my turntable and... wow, I'm blown away! The sound is amazing, really. Very very clean.
Turned it way, way up, and never any distortion. Loud pulsating music, tubes glowing blue, sparks jumping, out-of-sight.
Well, LPs are great, but what about CDs? That lead to getting a tube CD-player (also a YAQIN model, see: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130347563372#ht_4857wt_908).
What can I say? It's friggin' amazing, really :-)
I love music, love classical, jazz, rock, vocal, electronic, ambient, etc, and now I'm back to skulking through the CD and record shops looking for deals.
Life and the music is sweet again.

[rhett7660]

Su Ra..

Of course the music isn't going to sound as good as the original. You are compressing the hell out of it. Try doing a one for one copy ie flac/ape etc and then tell us what you think about digital music. When you compress the music you are going to loose some of the quality.

[Su Ra]

Su Ra..

Of course the music isn't going to sound as good as the original. You are compressing the hell out of it. Try doing a one for one copy ie flac/ape etc and then tell us what you think about digital music. When you compress the music you are going to loose some of the quality.

I will try that.

But we all compress. Yes, I know, it's smaller, fits more on limited drives, more manageable, etc. Let's start a movement, no compression, no loss, just the raw, as close as we can get. You know, I've gone back to film (I know, it's ridiculous), we call it RealRAW amongst my camera buddies, and the resolution is far beyond what can be captured digitally.

Let's 'listen to the music as it was meant to sound', as my musician friends like to tell me (too frequently).

Tubes are really great though, if you ever get your hands on a tube amp, give it a try.

[rhett7660]

I will try that.

But we all compress. Yes, I know, it's smaller, fits more on limited drives, more manageable, etc. Let's start a movement, no compression, no loss, just the raw, as close as we can get. You know, I've gone back to film (I know, it's ridiculous), we call it RealRAW amongst my camera buddies, and the resolution is far beyond what can be captured digitally.

Let's 'listen to the music as it was meant to sound', as my musician friends like to tell me (too frequently).

Tubes are really great though, if you ever get your hands on a tube amp, give it a try.


Not all.. some of us have complete library's of uncompressed music.

Not even going to touch the film vs digital debate. Will stick to music.

[Scepticalscribe]

I will try that.

But we all compress. Yes, I know, it's smaller, fits more on limited drives, more manageable, etc. Let's start a movement, no compression, no loss, just the raw, as close as we can get. You know, I've gone back to film (I know, it's ridiculous), we call it RealRAW amongst my camera buddies, and the resolution is far beyond what can be captured digitally.

Let's 'listen to the music as it was meant to sound', as my musician friends like to tell me (too frequently).

Tubes are really great though, if you ever get your hands on a tube amp, give it a try.

I have never left film for that precise reason, but that is another story.

Great threat and fascinating topic. I have a great collection of vinyl records sitting on shelves in western Europe, and reading this threat has made me go all nostalgic. Many of the posters are absolutely right; the thrill of buying a vinyl record, (the thrill of anticipation too, as they were quite expensive given incomes and pocket money was quite limited, so one didn't buy records in bulk, one saved up for them and bought them one at a time), superb artwork, and that lovely discreet "thunk" as it landed on the TT and the needles slid over and the hiss as it landed.......

Thanks for resurrecting the thread, some of you have given me food for thought and I must now consider getting a modern (high end) TT and quality needles to hear that rich, welcoming sound...

Cheers

[Su Ra]

I have never left film for that precise reason, but that is another story.

Great threat and fascinating topic. I have a great collection of vinyl records sitting on shelves in western Europe, and reading this threat has made me go all nostalgic. Many of the posters are absolutely right; the thrill of buying a vinyl record, (the thrill of anticipation too, as they were quite expensive given incomes and pocket money was quite limited, so one didn't buy records in bulk, one saved up for them and bought them one at a time), superb artwork, and that lovely discreet "thunk" as it landed on the TT and the needles slid over and the hiss as it landed.......

Thanks for resurrecting the thread, some of you have given me food for thought and I must now consider getting a modern (high end) TT and quality needles to hear that rich, welcoming sound...

Cheers

Yeah, I love the size and sound from LPs too. Nice graphics on the covers, and the feel of the vinyl as you hold it. There's interesting discussions going on about tube amps over at (among other places):
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=23

I've got to get myself a new turntable and am looking for a nice one now.