Improve iPhone's 'Locate Me' Accuracy

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple posted a Knowledge Base article (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=307549) points to this SkyHook Wireless page (http://skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/submit_ap.php) that allows you to enter corrections to Skyhook's wifi mapping.

Skyhook provides (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/23/skyhooks-wi-fi-location-technology-for-iphone-ipod-touch/) the GPS-like location features in the iPhone and iPod Touch. It accomplishes this by a combination of Wifi and Cellular tower locations. To seed their database, Skyhook sent out teams of drivers to correlate hotspot locations with their geographic location. Over time, as Wifi base stations are moved, the accuracy can drift.

Skyhook's submission system (http://skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/submit_ap.php) allows you to correct these incorrectly labeled Wifi basestations.



Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2008/03/11/improve-iphones-locate-me-accuracy/)

[mainstreetmark]

"Teams of Drivers"? They paid people to just drive around the world for a few months? How did they manage that! Seems like it would cost a fortune to build that database.

I wonder if the iPhone "automatically" can do this. That is, when you spot a wifi, AND you're being triangulated, publish that result, and eventually, you'll get a "good guess" as to where the wifi radio is.

[wchong]

yet another way for apple to track where you are.

[ppc_michael]

yet another way for apple to track where you are.

lol Oh you.

[shadowfax]

yet another way for apple to track where you are.

I doubt they need to tell you they know by showing you.... they can find out behind the scenes.

[ert3]

I was really wondering why this wasn't available from the get go.

I have two wifi points in a very porely mapped neighborhood and I am certain that some one would appretiate a way around.

Not to mention the more we build the data base the more we can shut-up those voyager users.

[Buschmaster]

May as well do my part and map out the places around me.

[Peel]

I just added my home router, but prolly won't be able to add any others I frequent, because the submission form requires you to add the MAC address of the router. Does anyone know of a way to get a router's MAC address if you don't have physical access to it, or can't log into the router's admin page?

[wcbarksdale]

I just added my home router, but prolly won't be able to add any others I frequent, because the submission form requires you to add the MAC address of the router. Does anyone know of a way to get a router's MAC address if you don't have physical access to it, or can't log into the router's admin page?

Try something like istumbler http://www.istumbler.net/

[iVoid]

I just added my home router, but prolly won't be able to add any others I frequent, because the submission form requires you to add the MAC address of the router. Does anyone know of a way to get a router's MAC address if you don't have physical access to it, or can't log into the router's admin page?

iStumbler will let you see what Wi-fi access points are near by. And give you the mac addresses.

[shadowfax]

I just added my home router, but prolly won't be able to add any others I frequent, because the submission form requires you to add the MAC address of the router. Does anyone know of a way to get a router's MAC address if you don't have physical access to it, or can't log into the router's admin page?

I am pretty sure that when the wireless router feeds your computer an IP address (I am assuming DHCP), that it uses its own MAC address to "authenticate" itself to you.

Here's one way to get any wireless router's MAC Address: First, you need to find out the router's IP address. Usually, it is the first address in the subnet, so if your address is 192.168.0.x, probably the router is 192.168.0.1.

Now, you can either run the Mac OS X Network Utility (in /Applications/Utilities) and click the "Netstat" tab, then select "display routing table information" and click "Netstat" below, OR you can open a Terminal window and type "netstat -r" followed by <return>. Either way you will get an output like this:

Routing tables

Internet:
Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire
default 10.0.1.1 UGSc 15 53 en1
10.0.1/24 link#6 UCS 1 0 en1
10.0.1.1 0:1c:62:d1:1b:b1 UHLW 12 6 en1 899
10.0.1.39 localhost UHS 0 0 lo0
10.37.129/24 link#7 UCS 0 0 en2
10.37.129.2 localhost UHS 0 0 lo0
10.211.55/24 link#8 UCS 0 0 en3
10.211.55.2 localhost UHS 0 0 lo0
127 localhost UCS 0 0 lo0
localhost localhost UH 2 8470 lo0
169.254 link#6 UCS 0 0 en1

when you look at the table, you should verify that the default gateway (1st entry, marked "default" in the left column, highlighted in green above) is the same as what you found it to be, and then look for the address in the 2nd column just to the right of "default," find the matching entry with that address in the leftmost column. Above that's in red. In that entry, look at the text in the second column. That should be the base station's MAC address.

Note that the above is NOT my router's MAC, I garbled it up for security reasons.

[Buschmaster]

Has anyone noticed if this is instant? I think what I'll do is add a bunch of the routers in my Universities area and I'll add a bunch around my house when I'm there. If everyone keeps adding these from time to time it can only get better.

Sure it's not real GPS but I've never had problems with it. It would seem like if you don't know where you actually are you have bigger fish to fry than finding directions to the nearest Caribou.

The only thing I would like about GPS is it announcing directions as you go through the trip, but I get by just fine without it.

[slidingjon]

When I did it, the confirmation email said it might take a couple weeks depending on how many requests they get.

[tm1000]

This is what it looks like:

Thank you for submitting a Wireless Access Point to Skyhook Wireless. The following information has been received and will be processed shortly:

MAC Address: ##-##-##-##-##-##
Lat/Lon: ##.233382, -###.######

It can take up to a few weeks before you see your Access Point in some of our production systems. In the mean time you can download Loki to start using Skyhook's Wi-Fi Positioning System on your laptop or desktop. Go to http://loki.com/download to start using Loki today.

Happy Mapping!

The Skyhook Team

[ramuman]

This is what it looks like:

Thank you for submitting a Wireless Access Point to Skyhook Wireless. The following information has been received and will be processed shortly:

MAC Address: ##-##-##-##-##-##
Lat/Lon: ##.233382, -###.######

It can take up to a few weeks before you see your Access Point in some of our production systems. In the mean time you can download Loki to start using Skyhook's Wi-Fi Positioning System on your laptop or desktop. Go to http://loki.com/download to start using Loki today.

Happy Mapping!

The Skyhook Team

I am often unsure where I am when using my desktop ;).

[Kazr]

Why not just put a GPS chipset in the phone and be done with it - would be much more accurate and wouldn't require user feedback to maintain. :confused:

[wallinbl]

Why not just put a GPS chipset in the phone and be done with it - would be much more accurate and wouldn't require user feedback to maintain. :confused:

Yep. This is a pretty sorry substitute for GPS. I have an iPhone and a BB8800. I never use the iPhone for location because it's not good.

[megfilmworks]

yet another way for apple to track where you are.
I have some left over aluminum hats if you need one.

[GravityEyes]

Why is everyone so crazy to GPS on the phone .... so imagine how hard it will be to drive with a device that plays your music, places calls - and gives directions --- what a mess!!

No thanks, my Garmin is just fine .... and larger screen.

[genshi]

"Teams of Drivers"? They paid people to just drive around the world for a few months? How did they manage that! Seems like it would cost a fortune to build that database.

Actually, they pay $20 per hour for this. They just posted an ad in my area looking for drivers. They provide the scanning device and I have to methodically drive around in a grid pattern as the scanner logs all hotspots that it sniffs out (protected or not.)

[cbrain]

I've just added my router.

Would it be legal to add other peoples routers on there?

[jdcoffman]

I've just added my router.

Would it be legal to add other peoples routers on there?

Yes of course it is, that's how they have this database, it's just a mesh of all the routers they could sniff out when driving around.

I've added around 20 of them since I first read this article, granted these are placed I frequent and I know where I am... but hopefully it'll help someone else.

I also posted to the Skyhook support site (on Satisfaction), and they said if you're the admin for a large number of routers (like at a university or mall for instance) you could send them a list of all the mac addresses of your routers and they could add them all at once into the system for you.

[rtdunham]

...Sure it's not real GPS but I've never had problems with it. ...

No one here seems aware there can be some real anomalies with this service.

Although Locate Me has worked well for me in many places, it locates my house one county, three cities and eight miles from its actual location. It does this with wifi on and with wifi off. I reported my router's MAC address to the company three weeks ago.(SEE NOTE AT BOTTOM) Still no change.

I'm more interested in WHY and HOW this can happen, than i am with the fact that it IS happening: If it can happen here then ANY time i use Locate Me i should allow for an eight mile margin of error (I should add i'm in a suburban residential area of Greater Cincinnati).

One theory was that my next door neighbor (or I) might be using a router that was located in that eight-mile-away-spot when the mapping was done. But we both bought our routers new from stores, stores not in that area, incidentally. Could it be some weird cell tower situation that screws up the triangulation?

Dunno, but i'd like to. The error is embarrassing when displaying my iPhone to friends at my house (I'm otherwise a big fan) and undermines confidence in the feature wherever i am.

NOTE: Ten houses away in any direction i get an accurate read. On one occasion I've gotten a precise location only 100 feet from my lot line. But thru about a dozen other tests at different times i've never been able to replicate that single "hit".

Any ideas?

NOTE: i used iStumbler (thank you wcbarksdale) tonight and it sniffed a different MAC address for my router than the one labeled on it. I re-submitted that MAC address and four others it identified and we'll see whether my results have improved in several weeks.

[RevolutionOne]

This is great, I added the router I use at home a few days ago and just tested the locate me when using wifi and it found my house. Before I added it, it circled a massive area which was useless

[gnasher729]

Yep. This is a pretty sorry substitute for GPS. I have an iPhone and a BB8800. I never use the iPhone for location because it's not good.

Actually, it works better than GPS in a few places. GPS doesn't work well in major cities, when you are enclosed from all sides by tall buildings and don't get decent reception. And that is exactly the situation where it is most likely that some router is nearby and you get your location that way.

[TBRO]

Anyone have a Windows program for mapping WiFi-spots?

Thanks
TBRO

[matthutch]

When I did it, the confirmation email said it might take a couple weeks depending on how many requests they get.

I got the same thing, but no more than 5 mins later (probably closer to 2 mins) i was able to locate myself on my iPod Touch in an area that had previously had no mapped locations.

I am going to be doing this every where I go around town now :)

[kdarling]

Google around, and you'll find several older public volunteer projects that collected WiFi hotspots and/or cell tower locations, and had programs for it.

Skyhook decided to make a business out of doing so. But at least they did much or all of their own data collection. (There are lots of places they haven't surveyed yet. I also gave them my hotspot info months ago, but it's never gone in.)

Google collected cell tower information in a much lazier way. They secretly collect tower info each time someone uses Google Maps Mobile on a phone with a real GPS chip in it.

The software license for Google Maps on the iPhone or any phone, states that Google is allowed to anonymously collect your location information, and even display in realtime the location of all phones currently making searches.

[kdarling]

Although Locate Me has worked well for me in many places, it locates my house one county, three cities and eight miles from its actual location. It does this with wifi on and with wifi off.

That would mean Skyhook doesn't know about the hotspots around you, and so your phone reverts to displaying the location of the cell tower you're using.

Skyhook's surveyed coverage is here:

http://skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/coverage.php

(Along with a new bunch of photos showing them surveying Europe.)

[megfilmworks]

I gave skyhook my wireless router details the day the thread started and it was in the system with in a week.
It used to located me within a 3-4 mile area, now with in a few meters.

[kdarling]

I gave skyhook my wireless router details the day the thread started and it was in the system with in a week.

Interesting. Are you surrounded by other hotspots? Are you in a surveyed area?

I'm thinking the reason they didn't take my info, is because I'm not in a surveyed area, and thus they have no way to check on the data.

(They say that their code checks for nearby hotspots to "self-heal" their database.)

[megfilmworks]

Interesting. Are you surrounded by other hotspots? Are you in a surveyed area?

I'm thinking the reason they didn't take my info, is because I'm not in a surveyed area, and thus they have no way to check on the data.

(They say that their code checks for nearby hotspots to "self-heal" their database.)

No, I live in a residential area with marginal cell phone coverage. But I may be in a surveyed area as my house is pictured in the Google maps ground pics.

[cycocelica]

Well I entered my information, and no more than 5 minutes later it moved closer but its still about 2.5 miles away from my house (center of cross-hair). I'll try again later I guess.

[rtdunham]

Well I entered my information, and no more than 5 minutes later it moved closer but its still about 2.5 miles away from my house (center of cross-hair). I'll try again later I guess.

I sniffed out four or five routers around my house and reported their MAC addresses more than a month ago. Locate ME continues to "locate me" one county, three cities, and 3.66 miles west of my actual location. If I go about 150 feet in any direction, it zeroes onto my location within ten feet or so. Anyone have a theory about that? The mis-location happens with wi-fi on, and with wi-fi off.

[kdarling]

Anyone have a theory about that?

Yes, I answered you above, at May 17, 2008, 10:20 PM :)

[ingenious]

Interesting. Are you surrounded by other hotspots? Are you in a surveyed area?

I'm thinking the reason they didn't take my info, is because I'm not in a surveyed area, and thus they have no way to check on the data.

(They say that their code checks for nearby hotspots to "self-heal" their database.)

I don't think that's what they mean. I'm in an "unsurveyed area" and they've taken many submissions of mine. Sometimes when the access points don't show up, I use a different email address to re-submit them and then they go through. I wonder if they have a spam filter...

Anyway, when they say their database is "self healing," I think they mean that in a urban or high-density surveyed area, a single router with an anomalous geotag is eradicated from the database if its geolocation doesn't match the majority of the routers around it. In other words, if one router is marked as being located in Duluth, but shows up near 100 other routers marked as Santa Fe, they'll temporarily remove the Duluth one from their database and force a re-scan.

One more point of interest. My access points show up fine with Skyhook's Loki add-on for (the dreaded) Firefox, but not immediately on my friend's iPhone. In fact, I'm still not sure they show up there. Skyhook's website said it depends on the partner (in this case, Apple) in how long it takes them to update to the newest version of the Skyhook database. Also, my submissions don't show up on their coverage map, so they must not update that very often.

[kdarling]

Anyway, when they say their database is "self healing," I think they mean that in a urban or high-density surveyed area, a single router with an anomalous geotag is eradicated from the database if its geolocation doesn't match the majority of the routers around it.

I agree. That's what I meant, but must not have been clear since I was mixing it with other stuff.

I submitted my info again, but no joy yet on WM Google or iPhone. Good tip to try Loki.

Cheers - Kev

[rtdunham]

Yes, I answered you above, at May 17, 2008, 10:20 PM :)

and i appreciate that. but your reply didn't seem to address a couple questions. IF the system's reverting only to cellphone towers, why does that system locate me so far from my actual location? Worse, why would that same system precisely report the location of my iphone if i walk 150 feet in any direction from my home? My home's in the coverage area indicated on skyhook's map, by the way.

This failure-to-perform isn't killing me, though it undermines confidence in use of the system anywhere else i travel. And it's become something of an intellectual (too grand a term, I know) exercise to figure out why it's happening.

peace
td

[kdarling]

and i appreciate that. but your reply didn't seem to address a couple questions. IF the system's reverting only to cellphone towers, why does that system locate me so far from my actual location?

Because, as I said, the cell tower method simply gives the location of the tower you're currently using... not your location. No triangulation involved. Obviously that tower is a few miles away.

Some people have a weirder situation. They can walk across their office and get hooked to a different tower. Thus their "location" jumps many miles!

Worse, why would that same system precisely report the location of my iphone if i walk 150 feet in any direction from my home? My home's in the coverage area indicated on skyhook's map, by the way.

Because you're walking close enough to a mapped hotspot(s), that it will use it (them) to actually triangulate YOUR location... instead of just reporting some remote tower's location as explained above.

Cheers - Kev