View Full Version : 2 years on a toilet seat...
Unspeaked
Mar 12, 2008, 05:10 PM
LINK (http://www.wwsb.com/Global/story.asp?S=8005740)
Sheriff: Kansas woman sat on boyfriend's toilet for 2 years
Associated Press - March 12, 2008 3:33 PM ET
WICHITA, Kan. (AP) - Authorities in western Kansas say a woman who became stuck on her boyfriend's toilet while apparently sitting on it for two years is refusing to cooperate with medical workers at a Wichita hopsital.
The Ness County Sheriff says the 35-year-old woman wasn't glued or tied, but became "physically stuck by her body." Sheriff Bryan Whipple said the police found the woman after her boyfriend called police late last month to report there was "something wrong" with her.
Whipple says the woman initially refused help, but was finally persuaded by emergency medical personnel and her boyfriend to go to a hopsital. At that point, the sheriff says, responders pried the entire seat off the toilet. It was later removed from the woman's body at the hospital.
The boyfriend told investigators he had brought the woman food and water and asked her every day to come out of the bathroom. But he did not explain what took him so long to call for police.
Investigators will present a report to prosecutors who will determine whether any charges should be filed.
psychofreak
Mar 12, 2008, 05:11 PM
What the ____!?!
dsnort
Mar 12, 2008, 05:11 PM
Let's file this under "Ooooo, Ick!"
marykay9507
Mar 12, 2008, 05:23 PM
I agree with your statement psychofreak
my question is NO ONE else missed her for two years??? and I sure hope they had another bathroom in that house:D
mactastic
Mar 12, 2008, 05:39 PM
Yeah, when I ran across this earlier today I just had to shake my head.
That's effed up. Bad. Seriously, two YEARS on the toilet? WTF? She obviously slept there, which I don't know how anyone could do.
And as a boyfriend, wouldn't you think it was a little weird that your SO was in the bathroom after a few hours, let alone months, years etc?
Seriously freaky. And talk of charging the bf with a crime too.
PlaceofDis
Mar 12, 2008, 05:40 PM
further evidence that the world is one messed up place...
Much Ado
Mar 12, 2008, 05:45 PM
As a Brit I feel it is my responsibility to be cynical and skeptical about the whole affair, but suspending disbelief for a moment:
Dear God, that's insane! Two years? :eek:
Unspeaked
Mar 12, 2008, 05:45 PM
Yeah, very few stories like this really strike me as bizarre any longer since these types of weird things seem to happen all the time now, but this particular one just really seemed crazy to me - beyond your run of the mill "news of the weird" article.
Santa Rosa
Mar 12, 2008, 05:47 PM
Guiness World Records anyone?? :)
killerrobot
Mar 12, 2008, 05:55 PM
At first I thought it odd, but when I read it was a Kansas woman I thought to myself, "Hmm...'nuf said."
Seriously though- two years? That's one bad case of the sh*** if you ask me.
Blue Velvet
Mar 12, 2008, 05:58 PM
Let's file this under "Ooooo, Ick!"
Particularly if you stop to think that the seat had to be removed in hospital... scratch that, don't think about it.
Poor woman; who knows what state of mental health she's been in.
mcarnes
Mar 12, 2008, 06:00 PM
In some ways this could be really convenient. Just ker-plunk when you feel like it, no worries.
mactastic
Mar 12, 2008, 06:03 PM
Another thought just occured to me which made my skin crawl... that toilet wasn't cleaned for at least two years, and god only knows how long before that.
And if their place only had one bathroom....
bbotte
Mar 12, 2008, 06:07 PM
so she hasn't showered in two years or wiped her back side?
Sptz
Mar 12, 2008, 06:21 PM
How is it possible? It can't be.... how can a woman be 2 years in a toilet...
Zwhaler
Mar 12, 2008, 06:32 PM
Guiness World Records anyone?? :)
Yeah, she can win the award for sitting on the toilet the longest and the award for being the most whacked out.
Flenz
Mar 12, 2008, 06:33 PM
How is it possible? It can't be.... how can a woman be 2 years in a toilet...
Constipation? :D
Flenz
bov
Mar 12, 2008, 06:36 PM
who would do that???
Killyp
Mar 12, 2008, 06:45 PM
Constipation? :D
Flenz
Believe me if she had been on the toilet for 2 years, the police wouldn't have to prise her off if she had constipation - she'd shoot off like a rocket...
rdowns
Mar 12, 2008, 06:46 PM
Wow, that woman really needs to learn not to hold things in and let them out.
Drumjim85
Mar 12, 2008, 06:47 PM
Guiness World Records anyone?? :)
no, you have to have at least 2 witnesses who are very public figures ... like a mayor, a cop, a priest .. that kinda thing.. they have to be there the whole time, and clock their hours ....
Flenz
Mar 12, 2008, 06:59 PM
Believe me if she had been on the toilet for 2 years, the police wouldn't have to prise her off if she had constipation - she'd shoot off like a rocket...
I'd bet, that would be a hit on youtube
Applespider
Mar 12, 2008, 07:23 PM
Must have been one hell of a book she was reading...
mactastic
Mar 12, 2008, 07:25 PM
I like big butts and I cannot lie...
mcarnes
Mar 12, 2008, 07:38 PM
I like big butts and I cannot lie...
Or a little butt that got stuck in the toilet, then grew around it from lack of exercise.
Crawn2003
Mar 12, 2008, 07:41 PM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)
How'd the BF go to the bathroom???
~Crawn
Abstract
Mar 12, 2008, 07:41 PM
The sex with her must have been really dirty.
I wonder how they cleaned that toilet, or her.
Don't panic
Mar 12, 2008, 07:42 PM
i suppose she felt she had to up this other one
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article93089.ece
fridgeymonster3
Mar 12, 2008, 07:45 PM
Two years seems completely unbelievable. Couldn't this just be a perfect example of poor journalism? Meaning, that she had been "using" the toilet for two years, and all of sudden got stuck on it this time? That would make much more sense than "sitting on" the toilet for two years and shows that the correct word is everything sometimes.
mactastic
Mar 12, 2008, 07:49 PM
Two years seems completely unbelievable. Couldn't this just be a perfect example of poor journalism? Meaning, that she had been "using" the toilet for two years, and all of sudden got stuck on it this time? That would make much more sense than "sitting on" the toilet for two years and shows that the correct word is everything sometimes.
Are you suggesting that she only started "using" the toilet at age 33? :eek:
Keebler
Mar 12, 2008, 10:19 PM
this world keeps amazing me in the weirdest ways.
i honestly can't think of a more whacked story than this one:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080312/sheriff_toilet_080312/20080312?hub=Health
wtf...
CJRhoades
Mar 12, 2008, 10:28 PM
Wait..........WHAT??? 2 years!?! WHAT? ....... .................. ....... ........................ It's stories like these that make me wonder what the hell is wrong with todays society.... Besides, she must have been mentally ill to sit on a toilet for 2 years.
dsnort
Mar 12, 2008, 10:29 PM
What to read, what to read?
Unspeaked
Mar 13, 2008, 12:11 AM
In some ways this could be really convenient. Just ker-plunk when you feel like it, no worries.
Aren't adult diapers a different means to the same end?
("End" may have been a poor choice of words...)
Two years seems completely unbelievable. Couldn't this just be a perfect example of poor journalism? Meaning, that she had been "using" the toilet for two years, and all of sudden got stuck on it this time? That would make much more sense than "sitting on" the toilet for two years and shows that the correct word is everything sometimes.
If it was just a simple news report or two line story, maybe. But could they really have misquoted the police department and hospital? I suppose they could have, but it seems unlikely...
fridgeymonster3
Mar 13, 2008, 12:18 AM
Are you suggesting that she only started "using" the toilet at age 33? :eek:
No, I'm saying that she only started using this toilet seat two years ago, which would distinguish it from a case where this was her first time using the toilet seat and she got stuck. It would be much less of a freak accident if she got stuck the first time she used this specific seat, rather than having used it for two years and than got stuck.
And, yes, I am saying that the journalist either used a poor choice of words, misquoted the office, the editor missed a missing word, or the officer spoke vaguely by using the word "sitting" because only idiots would believe such a preposterous scenario of a woman sitting on the same toilet seat for two years straight with no break. Any of those things are more likely than what the article points to.
maxrobertson
Mar 13, 2008, 12:22 AM
that's crazy. There really does have to be something wrong with her. She must have fallen into a really deep depression or some kind of catatonic state or something and just lost all touch. You've gotta feel bad for her.
StealthRider
Mar 13, 2008, 12:23 AM
Better than getting one of your nuts stuck in a wood-slat chair, if any of you remember that particular evening.
God, those were good times...:D
thejadedmonkey
Mar 13, 2008, 01:14 AM
Better story link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23595533/
twoodcc
Mar 13, 2008, 01:19 AM
that's just messed up. that's really hard to believe also.
teflon
Mar 13, 2008, 01:50 AM
Doesn't she have a job? Friends or families who wonder where she went?
She's going to have severe back pain when she gets older from sitting (probably crouching) on a toilet seat for two years.
Abstract
Mar 13, 2008, 05:08 AM
And, yes, I am saying that the journalist either used a poor choice of words, misquoted the office, the editor missed a missing word, or the officer spoke vaguely by using the word "sitting" because only idiots would believe such a preposterous scenario of a woman sitting on the same toilet seat for two years straight with no break. Any of those things are more likely than what the article points to.
I don't think the story is mis-worded, nor was it misinterpreted. You just can't accept that some people out there are just crazy. Why bother trying to make sense of this?
The skin of the lady grew over the seat. Her legs had worn away. Your legs don't wear down from lack of exercise. You'd have to be immobile for a LONG time for this to happen.
tominated
Mar 13, 2008, 06:00 AM
only in america... ;)
amanda kathryn
Mar 13, 2008, 07:15 AM
She's going to have severe back pain when she gets older from sitting (probably crouching) on a toilet seat for two years.
this is probably the least of her problems. my guess is her legs are useless at this point, not to mention whatever mental issues she has.
BornAgainMac
Mar 13, 2008, 07:57 AM
I wonder if she kept up with the news. "What! Macs have moved to Intel?"
arkitect
Mar 13, 2008, 08:27 AM
who would do that???
I think the question should be: "Who would allow that?" :confused:
How can anyone stand by and watch something like this happen? Surely the boyfriend has to be charged with neglectful care…
Poor woman.
amanda kathryn
Mar 13, 2008, 08:57 AM
I think the question should be: "Who would allow that?" :confused:
it took him two years to decide something was wrong. obviously they both have some mental issues, you can't be a normally functioning human being and not know something is wrong. women can have their moments, i could imagine in protest locking myself in the bathroom for a few hours if i was mad at my boyfriend. maybe a day. but i think if i stayed in there for more than a couple days, he'd probably try a little harder than, "honey, please come out now?"
it sounds like NOBODY else knew this was going on. woman just falls off the face of the planet and nobody asks? i wonder if people DID ask the boyfriend and he made something up.
Supersonic
Mar 13, 2008, 09:08 AM
I'm calling shennanigans on this one..
Two years. No way!
After several hours, you'd lose feeling in your legs, after a few more and you'd get pooling of blood in the legs which could cause untold cicrulatory damage. Issues like that will kill you PDQ. Suspension trauma can take minutes if youre not sitting right and we all know how issues life deep vain thrombosis kill you in hours sitting on an aircraft...
Two years...I smell poor reporting bs
brad.c
Mar 13, 2008, 09:55 AM
I wonder if she kept up with the news. "What! Macs have moved to Intel?"
Wonder if she had a laptop? She'd make an interesting spokesperson.
Disturbing image: New Mac/PC ad, with Justin Long sitting on her lap.
Abstract
Mar 13, 2008, 10:22 AM
Two years...I smell poor reporting bs
Then what happened to all the muscle in her legs?
Raid
Mar 13, 2008, 10:26 AM
I'm calling shennanigans on this one..Well I would go get my broom, but maybe a plunger would be better in this case. ... 2 years :eek: I think both (boyfriend & girlfriend) should be checked out for mental health issues. I mean how long would you let somebody sit on a toilet?
mrwizardno2
Mar 13, 2008, 10:32 AM
I wonder if she ever bothered to flush?
..... *shudder*
atszyman
Mar 13, 2008, 10:34 AM
Then what happened to all the muscle in her legs?
At least one of the articles linked said her legs had atrophied, so she had definitely been inactive for an extended period... but there have to be some mental health issues involve here for both of them...
"Well maybe tomorrow" would only go as an excuse for about a day before I got someone else in to talk to whomever locks themselves in the bathroom. I'd start with family and friends before the authorities, but if they weren't out by the end of a week I'm pretty sure that family, friends, and myself would agree that it's time to have them forcibly committed.
joepunk
Mar 13, 2008, 01:18 PM
Particularly if you stop to think that the seat had to be removed in hospital... scratch that, don't think about it.
Too Late
Maybe it was the only place she could listen to her iPod.
TravisReynolds
Mar 13, 2008, 01:34 PM
i read this article somewhere else, not let me tell you what I said before.
That is weird, just imagine everything that has gone on in two years. All of the events that have happened in your life.
Keep in mind she never realy showered or did anything
It's just really wierd
Unspeaked
Mar 13, 2008, 02:23 PM
LATEST UPDATE (http://www.hdnews.net/Story/bathroom031308)
"Woman felt safe in room"
By ROXANA HEGEMAN
Associated Press
WICHITA -- A 35-year-old woman who sat on her boyfriend's toilet for so long her body was stuck to the seat by the time he called police had a phobia about leaving the bathroom, her boyfriend said.
"I didn't do this to her. It was her choice. She is an adult, she made her own decision. It was my fault I should have gotten help for her sooner -- I admit that. But after a while, you kind of get used to it," her boyfriend, Kory McFarren, said in a phone interview from their Ness City home.
The case drew nationwide attention after Ness County Sheriff Bryan Whipple said it appeared the Ness City woman's skin had grown around the seat in the two years she apparently was in the bathroom.
"We pried the toilet seat off with a pry bar, and the seat went with her to the hospital," Whipple said. "The hospital removed it."
McFarren, 36, said he can't be certain how long Pam Babcock stayed in the bathroom because "time just went by so quick I can't pinpoint how long." He said she had a phobia about leaving the bathroom because of beatings she received in her childhood.
"It just kind of happened one day; she went in and had been in there a little while, the next time it was a little longer. Then she got it in her head she was going to stay -- like it was a safe place for her," McFarren said.
But McFarren said she moved around in the bathroom during that time, bathed and changed into the clothes he brought her. He brought food and water to her. They had conversations in there and had an otherwise normal relationship -- except it all happened in the bathroom.
The boyfriend called police Feb. 27 to report "there was something wrong with his girlfriend," Whipple said.
McFarren said he finally called police after he became worried because Babcock was acting groggy -- like she didn't know what was going on, except she was awake.
What emergency responders found when they went into the bathroom that day has left residents of this small western Kansas town buzzing, and law enforcement officials incredulous.
Police found the clothed woman sitting on the toilet, her sweat pants down to her mid-thigh. She was "somewhat disoriented," and her legs looked like they had atrophied, Whipple said.
"She was not glued. She was not tied. She was just physically stuck by her body," Whipple said. "It is hard to imagine. ... I still have a hard time imagining it myself."
She initially refused emergency medical services, but finally was convinced by responders and her boyfriend she needed to be checked out at a hospital.
"She said that she didn't need any help, that she was OK and did not want to leave," he said.
Whipple said the county attorney will determine whether any charges should be filed against McFarren.
McFarren, who works at an antique store, said he has been taking care of Babcock for the 16 years they have lived together. He insisted he tried to coax her out of the bathroom every day.
"And her reply would be, 'Maybe tomorrow,' " Whipple said. "According to him, she did not want to leave the bathroom."
She was reported in fair condition Wednesday at a hospital in Wichita, about 150 miles southeast of Ness City. Whipple said she has refused to cooperate with medical providers or law enforcement investigators.
Babcock was not even aware she had no feeling in her legs when emergency responders arrived, McFarren said, adding she has an infection in her legs that has damaged her nerves. He said there is a possibility she might wind up in a wheelchair.
McFarren said he still will be there to take care of her when she comes home.
James Ellis, a neighbor, said he had known the woman since she was a child, but he had not seen her for at least six years.
"I don't think anybody can make any sense out of it," Ellis said.
Babcock had a tough childhood after her mother died at a young age and apparently usually was kept inside the house as she grew up, he said.
"It really doesn't surprise me," Ellis said. "What surprises me is somebody wasn't called in a bit earlier."
McFarren said his neighbors don't realize there are a lot of people with phobias doing similar things. He said false rumors have been circulating around town he somehow was keeping her on the toilet against her will.
"Tell people," he said, "to leave me the hell alone."
notjustjay
Mar 13, 2008, 02:32 PM
OK, so this makes more sense.
So because of her paranoia and other emotional issues, she decides she'd rather just live in the bathroom. For just under two years she lives in it like a tiny jail cell. Life is relatively normal, except for her refusing to leave the room.
Because of how little exercise she gets, her legs slowly atrophy, she perhaps gains a bit too much weight. Perhaps a few days or weeks before the reported extraction, she sits down on the toilet seat and due to this combination, finds herself stuck. The boyfriend, beginning to get concerned because she's no longer walking about, finally calls for help.
This is far more believable. Still insane, but makes more sense.
question fear
Mar 13, 2008, 02:34 PM
Yea it makes more sense...but what about being stuck to the seat? How long do you have to be on there for that to happen...could it happen in a matter of hours?
notjustjay
Mar 13, 2008, 02:40 PM
It would only take an instant for something to slip into the wrong place and become stuck solidly. Ever get a ring stuck on your finger? There have also been reports of people getting solidly stuck on airplane, bus toilets, etc.
Then as you panic and struggle, the area starts to swell which makes it even worse.
So it's hard to say... she could have been extracted within minutes, hours, days, weeks of actually getting "stuck" on the toilet seat after voluntarily living in the bathroom for two years. The report that her skin had "grown over" the seat suggests a longer period of time, but I'm starting to distrust the accuracy of any facts claimed in the original stories.
Stampyhead
Mar 13, 2008, 04:34 PM
At first I thought it odd, but when I read it was a Kansas woman I thought to myself, "Hmm...'nuf said."
Why don't you come over here and say that? ;)
Eraserhead
Mar 13, 2008, 04:57 PM
Yea it makes more sense...but what about being stuck to the seat? How long do you have to be on there for that to happen...could it happen in a matter of hours?
Probably a few weeks.
mrwizardno2
Mar 13, 2008, 05:01 PM
I can only imagine...
"Honey, spread your legs, I need to pee..."
Much Ado
Mar 13, 2008, 05:15 PM
Didn't anyone notice at Christmas or anything?
iheartapple
Mar 13, 2008, 05:20 PM
I can't believe the boyfriend is facing charges
for not telling someone sooner... ?!
Bah.
The news people on channel 5 were like, "we couldnt make this story up even if we tried" lol.
Unspeaked
Mar 13, 2008, 05:21 PM
Didn't anyone notice at Christmas or anything?
Isn't that a Hallmark Channel movie?
I'll Be on the Toilet for Christmas
?
skiesforme
Mar 13, 2008, 05:27 PM
Then what happened to all the muscle in her legs?
Atrophy. useless...
redAPPLE
Mar 13, 2008, 05:30 PM
LINK (http://www.wwsb.com/Global/story.asp?S=8005740)
this story is rubbish without pix.
redAPPLE
Mar 13, 2008, 05:46 PM
I wonder if she kept up with the news. "What! Macs have moved to Intel?"
LOL! that made my day. i was thinking of this on the same note: "wtf? they are called mac pros now?
Xfujinon
Mar 14, 2008, 01:02 AM
this story is rubbish without pix.
Yeah, pics or it didn't happen.
It can't be worse than BME pain olympics. Bring it on.
John Jacob
Mar 14, 2008, 02:14 AM
I so regret reading this thread. This is absolutely horrible. I'll get nightmares tonight. :mad:
killerrobot
Mar 17, 2008, 01:07 PM
Why don't you come over here and say that? ;)
Buy me the plane ticket to MCI and we'll have some beers and talk about it.;)
Or I'll probably be back around for Christmas if you can take a rain check.:)
To get the conversation started now though, Kansas is a mystical place...proven by scientists to be flatter than a pancake, home of the largest ball of twine, underground salt museum, superman, dorothy, the first pizza hut... I mean, I'd believe any story that starts with "A Kansas woman...".
JML42691
Mar 17, 2008, 01:10 PM
Why would somebody even want to sit on a toilet that long??? This is just messed up.
sowillo14
Mar 17, 2008, 01:19 PM
Maybe it was a Moen?:rolleyes:
OnlyMarcusCannn
Mar 18, 2008, 03:32 PM
I can only imagine...
"Honey, spread your legs, I need to pee..."
*shudder* Reminds me of some sort of Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie.
Everythingisnt
Mar 21, 2008, 08:21 AM
Wow. A messed up story indeed..
I feel badly for the woman, though - I think it's clear that she needed medical attention and that she isn't well.. Even if her boyfriend apparently had a "normal relationship" with her while she was staying inside the washroom, living inside a washroom for 2 years is in no way normal. IMO the boyfriend could have done more to help her...
smokeyrabbit
Mar 22, 2008, 12:43 PM
Buy me the plane ticket to MCI and we'll have some beers and talk about it.;)
Or I'll probably be back around for Christmas if you can take a rain check.:)
To get the conversation started now though, Kansas is a mystical place...proven by scientists to be flatter than a pancake, home of the largest ball of twine, underground salt museum, superman, dorothy, the first pizza hut... I mean, I'd believe any story that starts with "A Kansas woman...".
Don't forget the world's largest prairie dog (http://www.kansassampler.org/wekan/largest.html)!
BlakTornado
Mar 22, 2008, 03:10 PM
what we don't know is that this (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/13/roto-rooters-pimped-out-powder-room-sports-a-wii-needs-a-big/) was her bathroom.
::Lisa::
Mar 22, 2008, 04:37 PM
I read about this on a different forum I visit. Her boyfriend was claiming that she got up, bathed, exercised and all in that bathroom but apparantly her skin grew around the toilet seat. Gross!
Strange article.
what we don't know is that this (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/13/roto-rooters-pimped-out-powder-room-sports-a-wii-needs-a-big/) was her bathroom.LOL!!!! Good one mate!
amanda kathryn
Mar 22, 2008, 05:11 PM
Don't forget the world's largest prairie dog (http://www.kansassampler.org/wekan/largest.html)!
prairie dog town! i've been there! TWICE! it's a must see stop when driving route 70 cross country.
i even have a shirt that says "i saw the world's largest prairie dog at prairie dog town in oakley kansas." i couldn't resist.
smokeyrabbit
Mar 24, 2008, 07:20 PM
prairie dog town! i've been there! TWICE! it's a must see stop when driving route 70 cross country.
i even have a shirt that says "i saw the world's largest prairie dog at prairie dog town in oakley kansas." i couldn't resist.
The real accomplishment is hitting moving tumbleweeds on I-70 in KS.
amanda kathryn
Mar 24, 2008, 07:46 PM
The real accomplishment is hitting moving tumbleweeds on I-70 in KS.
i don't recall seeing any tumbleweeds in that area, there were plenty of them when i lived in las vegas though. those suckers were smart too, even stopped at red lights :D :D :D
GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2008, 12:28 AM
To get the conversation started now though, Kansas is a mystical place...proven by scientists to be flatter than a pancake, home of the largest ball of twine, underground salt museum, superman, dorothy, the first pizza hut... I mean, I'd believe any story that starts with "A Kansas woman...".
I thought the Biggest Ball of Twine was in Minnesota?
Cookie for the reference.
Antares
Mar 26, 2008, 11:54 AM
I thought the Biggest Ball of Twine was in Minnesota?
Cookie for the reference.
The Minnesota one used to be the World's Largest (built by one man) but there is also one in Cawker City, Kansas that is now larger. There is also one in Branson, Missouri which is supposed to be technically the world's largest (but was built by a group of people):
http://www.darwintwineball.com
http://thebigstuffproject.blogspot.com/2007/10/worlds-largest-ball-of-twine-by-1-man.html
http://www.thom.org/gallery/set/twine.html
http://www.bookofjoe.com/2005/07/worlds_largest_.html
I'll take that cookie. Chocolate chip. PM me and I'll give you an address to mail it to.
amanda kathryn
Mar 26, 2008, 05:46 PM
and i always thought it was in yuma :confused:
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