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macenforcer
Mar 15, 2008, 02:58 PM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.



Tallest Skil
Mar 15, 2008, 03:00 PM
Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

As long as you don't flame us for wanting the best software.

thejadedmonkey
Mar 15, 2008, 03:01 PM
That's sweet.

macenforcer
Mar 15, 2008, 03:03 PM
As long as you don't flame us for wanting the best software.

I won't. OS X is the best but I want a solid laptop that does what I need to do and you know, XP does that. NOT using VISTA, NEVER WILL. XP can handle it. Just wish it saw more than 3gb of ram but with XP you don't need more than 3gb. Its funny like that. OS X can handle all ram but needs 3gb to run properly. XP uses 500mb with no apps open. But thats running webserver and stuff.

heatmiser
Mar 15, 2008, 03:04 PM
That's a nice machine. My next laptop will probably be a Thinkpad. They have some sweet deals.

notsofatjames
Mar 15, 2008, 03:04 PM
ok.. thanks for that. The reason apple products are expensive to what people compare them too, is becuase theyre difficult to compare. No other hardware comes with OSX, and since you cant buy it, its only worth what you think its worth. I think OSX is worth the cost difference, and you do not.

OS X can handle all ram but needs 3gb to run properly. XP uses 500mb with no apps open.

My macbook has 1GB of RAM, and can quite easily run OSX and Windows with no applications open properly. In fact, I can run applications in both, at the same time (Parallels) without issue. I do agree that OSX uses more RAM than XP, however i fear your exagerating a small part. OS X can run comfortable on 512MB, and I use XP on a really old PC with a 400MHZ processor and 184MB RAM. My iPhone has more power than that!

Alpinism
Mar 15, 2008, 03:11 PM
too bad it cant run FCS2 and not having the stability of OS X.

macenforcer
Mar 15, 2008, 03:11 PM
My macbook has 1GB of RAM, and can quite easily run OSX and Windows with no applications open properly. In fact, I can run applications in both, at the same time (Parallels) without issue. I do agree that OSX uses more RAM than XP, however i fear your exagerating a small part. OS X can run comfortable on 512MB, and I use XP on a really old PC with a 400MHZ processor and 184MB RAM. My iPhone has more power than that!

Might be without issue but you are definately using virtual memory (hard drive space) for your ram. Its alot slower. If you had more ram you would see the difference.

too bad it cant run FCS2 and not having the stability of OS X.

Neither can a macbook and they are still more expensive than the Thinkpad.

notsofatjames
Mar 15, 2008, 03:14 PM
Might be without issue but you are definately using virtual memory (hard drive space) for your ram. Its alot slower. If you had more ram you would see the difference.

I used to have 2 GB, but one of the 1GB sticks failed, and caused KPs, so now ive only got a 1 GB stick in, and the difference is negligble. Maybe because I upgraded the hard disk to a faster spinning one.. I love how easy it is to change a hard disk in the macbook, especially compared to other laptops Ive had to do it in.

macenforcer
Mar 15, 2008, 03:15 PM
Look this thread is not about osx being better than XP. It is a given, but the whole greedy ways of apple. If I can buy a thinkpad for $1200 FULL loaded then why do I have to pay $2500 for the same computer with half the specs??? Apple is ripping everyone off plain and simple and they know they can do it because they have os x. Let apple license os x and watch their hardware business go out the freakin window OVERNIGHT.

Oh I also have a 15" thinkpad t61 and I paid the SAME amount. Just doesn't have a webcam or verizon.

duffyanneal
Mar 15, 2008, 03:15 PM
I traditionally like Thinkpads, but their screens suck some serious ass. The LED backlit X300 is supposed to have a pretty good screen, but none of the T series screens come even close to the worst screen available in the MBP. Think the yellow 1/3 screen is bad? Try having a screen that looks like you are peering thru a screen door or dim and washed out colors. The 14" T61 (widescreen) with the four cell battery is about the same size and weight as the 15" MBP, but with a whopping 2 - 2.5 hours of battery life. Move up to the 6 cell for 3 - 4 hours of battery life, and tack on more weight and a battery that protrudes from the rear of the machine. I've actually owned several Thinkpads over the years and I currently use one for work. They are good generic work machines that are built fairly well, but they lack some features that I find important.

pondie84
Mar 15, 2008, 03:18 PM
Yes Apple products are (comparably) expensive.
Yes their products aren't right for every consumer.
Yes, it's arguable that their products do not match up with other products on the market in some people's opinions.
No it's not particularly necessary to hear complaints from these people.

Enjoy your new notebook. It sounds just right for you. Meanwhile there will be people who will prefer an Apple notebook to the one you have. To each their own.

As to your whole complaint about Apple being 'greedy'. Well that's the way capitalism works. If you exclusively own a product you can set the price of the product at whatever level you think will make you the highest profit margin. Obviously Apple do not think lowering their costs or including more options in their product would increase profits otherwise they would do so.

If your complaint is that Apple want to make the most profit they can then your complaint is with capitalism overall.

mstens
Mar 15, 2008, 03:19 PM
Congrats on getting what I consider to be one of the all time great 'road warrior' laptops and one that I recommend highly when asked :) I have a T61 14" model I work with daily. It really is a great travel laptop and work laptop (I've had a 560, T23, T30, T31, T41 etc) . Oh, one recommendation. I highly recommend getting the port replicator/docking station as the power plugs tend to get 'loose' over the years.. especially if you tend to be less than attentive when inserting or removing it like I am :o My only problem when I needed a replacement personal laptop was that I did not like feeling like I had to use an external monitor to do any real photo editing. Not an issue for most people, I know.

Now that all being said when I was shopping recently I discovered that to get to a comparable wide screen version of a T61p (and I really did spec them together)the price was pretty much within the same price point (within $100 counting applicable discounts on both) to what I just spent on a new mbp 15". So, it will depend on what you're doing IMO. I think it's the lack of width of offering more than anything else that you notice with Apple. For instance, you can pick up a pretty sweet 'base" Lenovo laptop for about $700 that will more than suffice for most users. I was hoping, a few years back, that the Mac Mini would be a step in this direction.

queshy
Mar 15, 2008, 03:19 PM
Nice purchase...I'd have to admit the X61s looks like a sweet deal now (finally) for someone up in Canada...

notsofatjames
Mar 15, 2008, 03:22 PM
Look this thread is not about osx being better than XP. It is a given, but the whole greedy ways of apple. If I can buy a thinkpad for $1200 FULL loaded then why do I have to pay $2500 for the same computer with half the specs??? Apple is ripping everyone off plain and simple and they know they can do it because they have os x. Let apple license os x and watch their hardware business go out the freakin window OVERNIGHT.

Oh I also have a 15" thinkpad t61 and I paid the SAME amount. Just doesn't have a webcam or verizon.

Actually looking at your specs, the macbook may be a better comparison and would probably cost you about $1400 with all the little things you want. A whole $1000 cheaper than you argue for. The only difference is a smaller screen, its 0.1GHz Slower, and it doesnt have the upgrade potential (the two slots and upgrade processor).

duffyanneal
Mar 15, 2008, 03:24 PM
Nice purchase...I'd have to admit the X61s looks like a sweet deal now (finally) for someone up in Canada...

If you decide to pick up an X61s get one with the ultralight screen. It is brighter and a bit better than the standard screen. BTW, the X series are great machines, the one hiccup was always the standard XGA screen which just doesn't offer enough screen real estate. The X300 looks to be a very good machine, but the price and the neutered CPU is a hangup.

gothamm
Mar 15, 2008, 03:26 PM
too bad it cant run FCS2 and not having the stability of OS X.

stability my ass. Whenever i pop in a dvd, i get an error message that my computer needs to restart. Whenever i try to partition for bootcamp, error message must restart. there goes all of the other applications i had open at that time. hard drive partitions are a nightmare, extracting big files are a nightmare. Had i not been able to run windows on my macbook, i would have never ever went mac.

Tiger might have been awesome when it reached maturity, but the relatively young leopard is full of bugs. Not even the bugs that picky people point out...I am talking basic *****. Like, it would be freaking nice that i dont get error messages when i transfer files from my external HD.

youradhere4222
Mar 15, 2008, 03:29 PM
Whoa!

The ThinkPad X Series starts off at 2.7 pounds...

I might have to reconsider getting a MacBook. :o

iMpathetic
Mar 15, 2008, 03:32 PM
As much as I love my MacBook, I may sell it for a T61.

As some of you may recall, my previous machine was a 15" Thinkpad T60, which I loved. Insanely great keyboard, decent battery life, and pretty darn fast under XP with a 2GHz Core Duo. I got rid of it for a 2.2GHz black MacBook because I got a great deal; nothing more.

How much, OP, did your T61 cost configured like that?

deadpixels
Mar 15, 2008, 03:33 PM
stability my ass. Whenever i pop in a dvd, i get an error message that my computer needs to restart. Whenever i try to partition for bootcamp, error message must restart. there goes all of the other applications i had open at that time. hard drive partitions are a nightmare, extracting big files are a nightmare. Had i not been able to run windows on my macbook, i would have never ever went mac.

Tiger might have been awesome when it reached maturity, but the relatively young leopard is full of bugs. Not even the bugs that picky people point out...I am talking basic *****. Like, it would be freaking nice that i dont get error messages when i transfer files from my external HD.

Mac is way more stable, there can be no arguing about that, duh! :p all the issues yo have are not common so i, if i may, suggest that you backup and try to re install the OS.

cthomet
Mar 15, 2008, 03:53 PM
wow this thread turned into one praising thinkpads. as someone said above, this is causing me to reconsider my purchase of a macbook. but then i look at the software on a mac, fun little stuff like garageband and other cool features and i lean back towards macbook. ive just worked with pcs my whole life and, while it is probably due to the pos computer i have, i havent been happy with them.

with that little internal debate in mind, i must say that i agree to some extent that apple charges too much for some things (apple remote, and uhh RAM, why not price that correctly?). but this is western economics, capitalism as someone said earlier. thats the way we function here in america. overall, especially considering osx, i say apple makes a superior product and therefore can charge a higher price.

also, i agree with the fact that the macbook and macbook pro are in need of an external revision. im hoping for WWDC, but i realize this is a bit of a stretch since its a developers conference. i guess i will wait to see what apple comes out with in the next revision and decide from there which laptop route to take

Alpinism
Mar 15, 2008, 03:57 PM
May I suggest a 101 manual on using a Mac & OS X. You cannot use OS X like Windows. My AE CS3, FCS2 have been way way stable than my premiere pro CS3 and AE CS3 on my DELL.



stability my ass. Whenever i pop in a dvd, i get an error message that my computer needs to restart. Whenever i try to partition for bootcamp, error message must restart. there goes all of the other applications i had open at that time. hard drive partitions are a nightmare, extracting big files are a nightmare. Had i not been able to run windows on my macbook, i would have never ever went mac.

Tiger might have been awesome when it reached maturity, but the relatively young leopard is full of bugs. Not even the bugs that picky people point out...I am talking basic *****. Like, it would be freaking nice that i dont get error messages when i transfer files from my external HD.

notsofatjames
Mar 15, 2008, 03:59 PM
also, i agree with the fact that the macbook and macbook pro are in need of an external revision. im hoping for WWDC, but i realize this is a bit of a stretch since its a developers conference. i guess i will wait to see what apple comes out with in the next revision and decide from there which laptop route to take

gosh yes! the MBP is long long overdue imo. Needs magnetic latch for starters. I like the old MB style though. One of the last White apple products. Everythings gone black and aluminum now..:(

cthomet
Mar 15, 2008, 04:05 PM
gosh yes! the MBP is long long overdue imo. Needs magnetic latch for starters. I like the old MB style though. One of the last White apple products. Everythings gone black and aluminum now..:(

ya i mean apple is known as an innovative company. so im waiting for an innovative design change on both.

i agree the old macbook design is classic apple, especially the white, but i wouldnt be opposed to change for several small reasons (well things i want to see for sure changed but i will let apples designers make the rest of the design changes, they seem to be ok at their job :p) i would like to see the casing around the screen slimmed down, like the mbp. i just think it looks sleeker. also, the palm rest stains or whatever you wanna call em, that issue needs to be resolved. other than that im just going to sit back and wait for apple to work their magic on the design revision (preferably sooner rather than later)

Sun Baked
Mar 15, 2008, 04:07 PM
Apple may have "consumer" machines, but they are typically in the premium machine bucket all over the map.

Apple made a choice to get rid of the low price/margin machines.

Hasn't hurt them now that they have turned around, since they are one of the strongest PC makers in their class. At least with growth and potential.

Not really a bad position to be in, growing PC business without the cash and margin eating bargain machines.

notsofatjames
Mar 15, 2008, 04:08 PM
) i would like to see the casing around the screen slimmed down, like the mbp. i just think it looks sleeker. also, the palm rest stains or whatever you wanna call em, that issue needs to be resolved. other than that im just going to sit back and wait for apple to work their magic on the design revision (preferably sooner rather than later)

Yeah, I gave up predicting Apple's actions a long time ago. Just blind faith now.... (thats real fanboy talk!)

Full of Win
Mar 15, 2008, 04:17 PM
...and the weakness of the Apple model raises its ugly head once again.

Not saying there aren't advantages to the Apple model of linking the OS to the computer maker - but even the most ardent Apple support (like myself) must admit that not having multiple 'takes' on what makes a good computer is a huge weakness.

hotdamn
Mar 15, 2008, 04:17 PM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

and what about the screen resolution, lcd quality, size, os included in the price y/n, etc...

at the end of the day, that thing still runs windows so who cares how little you paid for it, it will come back and haunt you either way.
I made the same mistake 3 months ago, little did I know...

heatmiser
Mar 15, 2008, 04:21 PM
and what about the screen resolution...

You can pick between WXGA and WXGA+ for the 14" and 15" models; that's one of the biggest advantages the Thinkpad has over the Macbook/Pro right off the bat. In fact, should I hop back to Windows, this is one of the primary reasons I'll get a Thinkpad. You can customize the heck out of their computers online.

tamvly
Mar 15, 2008, 04:25 PM
De gustibus non est disputandum

Hankster
Mar 15, 2008, 04:31 PM
Being a PC user for over 15 years I agree the hardware is much better, but that's because PCs are more or less "open source" and there's much competition. But, the reason I use Mac as well is because of the OS. I bought my MB because I hate Vista.

There's pros and cons for both PC and Mac, anyone who doesn't see it isn't being realistic. The only other gripe about Macs is that there's waaay less software and waaay more compatibility issues with non-Mac specific applications.

robanga
Mar 15, 2008, 04:34 PM
I dunno, I do not expect that Apple will provide the best hardware deals. Best hardware deals are for those companies that have to depend on software that is inferior and whose user experiences are the same.

I have owned a lot of Sonys, Dells, HPs, Gateways, IBMs, over the year the years, not a lot of really bad things to say about them (except perhaps my latest experiences with Vista) but I also can tell you that the experience of owning them was no way near the Mac experience. OS X, iLife, iWork etc made a believer out of me. This is easily worth the dollar premium alone.

So based on that understanding, sure Apple does not need to offer quite the same "deals" as the others do.

What you do get is a simplistic, great design and good, generally dependable hardware plus all of the above. That is enough for me.

cthomet
Mar 15, 2008, 04:37 PM
Being a PC user for over 15 years I agree the hardware is much better, but that's because PCs are more or less "open source" and there's much competition. But, the reason I use Mac as well is because of the OS. I bought my MB because I hate Vista.

There's pros and cons for both PC and Mac, anyone who doesn't see it isn't being realistic. The only other gripe about Macs is that there's waaay less software and waaay more compatibility issues with non-Mac specific applications.

why not use XP if you hate Vista?

just curious because this thread has caused me to reconsider, just a little bit, my purchase of a macbook, because of the advantages offered by something like a thinkpad (mainly monetary). but, as you said, there are advantages to both. also, would you go to PC if vista was better? really, what are the biggest factors keeping you on a mac as opposed to a PC, or should i say off a PC and on a mac?

m1stake
Mar 15, 2008, 04:43 PM
Upgradeable CPU sounds good, but it doesn't quite work that way. By the time that thing starts to feel slow, there will be a new socket that won't be compatible with the current one. Processors that are will be extremely expensive because of their age.

duffyanneal
Mar 15, 2008, 04:58 PM
Upgradeable CPU sounds good, but it doesn't quite work that way. By the time that thing starts to feel slow, there will be a new socket that won't be compatible with the current one. Processors that are will be extremely expensive because of their age.

Good point because the next significant upgrade in hardware will be Montevina which is a chipset replacement. So having a CPU ZIFF socket isn't as significant as say 6-12 months ago.

wgilles
Mar 15, 2008, 05:02 PM
Apples aren't for everyone, just like PCs aren't for everyone

dejo
Mar 15, 2008, 05:24 PM
It is a given, but the whole greedy ways of apple. If I can buy a thinkpad for $1200 FULL loaded then why do I have to pay $2500 for the same computer with half the specs???
I don't think Apple is nearly as greedy as you would make them out to be. Sure, their margins tend to be higher than other computer manufacturers, around 30% they usually state in their financials. But if you think they can manufacture the $2500 MacBook Pro, sell it for $1200 and still make any profit, I think you're wrong. A 30% margin means it costs them about $1923 to manufacture that MBP they sell for $2500. And that $1200 Thinkpad is not the SAME computer.

And I've said it before, so I'll just link to my previous post again: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4542947&postcount=15

michaelsviews
Mar 15, 2008, 05:35 PM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

The world is NOT perfect, and neither am I, However if you can NOT find a happy medium between the Apple Hardware and software, than thats the choice you have to make.

Over 20 years on Mainframes and PC's with dual floppy's and up from there. The Apple world is a very very good world to be in .

DJJONES
Mar 15, 2008, 05:50 PM
personally i can understand where that guy is coming from. new ms computer look very appealing and are very affordable comparing it to apple products but when it comes down to it after using it for some time some very weird **** happends. i dont kno about anyone else but for a machine that ive owned for lesss then a year my hp gets random errors that make no sense. i also have a sony desktop that turn on by BY ITS SELF i had to unplug it to stop it from turning on. also too much crap goes on behind the scenes with Ms operating software too much crap that can happen randomly and tons of heaaches. i have to admit osx is built from allot of brainstorming rather then trying to make a dollar. microsoft is already getting there new os ready wth.

i cant wait to get my macbook pro with all the simple common sense things that someone like me would need.:apple:

Cabbit
Mar 15, 2008, 05:51 PM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

First of all get the upgrading of the CPU nonsense out of your head by the time the next CPU's are out that are more than 100MHz difference will not work with the chipset due to thermal voltage and FSB changes.

Apple trackpads have unlimited buttons now just only one physical button for thoughts whom prefer it personally i would rather the button is removed completely.

The spec of your laptop is pretty good for the price though i wonder why so many redundant features like modem ports and PCMCIA. Dose it also have Serial and PS 2 :rolleyes:.

Also its a 14 inch brick that is ugly as sin and will give you back problems carrying it around but not before the keys on the keyboard flip of with there tiny clips snapped.

If your sticking with Windows XP, good for you but you know you will be using Vista pretty soon after all it is your upgrade path and new versions of msn and what not will be Vista only.

burningrave101
Mar 15, 2008, 06:06 PM
The spec of your laptop is pretty good for the price though i wonder why so many redundant features like modem ports and PCMCIA. Dose it also have Serial and PS 2 :rolleyes:.

Because ThinkPads are business class laptops just like Dell's Latitudes or HP business line. Businesses don't upgrade all their hardware all at once sometimes because depending on the size of your business it can be incredibly expensive and they may not even need the upgrade at the current time. I also prefer to have a PCMCIA slot myself because I have to have an aircard for internet and the Express cards from AT&T are nothing to brag about. I prefer Sierra Wireless aircards and their only two options is the PCMCIA version or the USB one. I have the Sierra Wireless 875 now and it's a very strong and reliable performer.[/QUOTE]

thechidz
Mar 15, 2008, 06:14 PM
wait wait wait...

Apple is greedy and Microsoft is...?

I'll wait...

Thinkpads are so much cheaper because they sell so many units and quality control sucks...

cthomet
Mar 15, 2008, 06:20 PM
And I've said it before, so I'll just link to my previous post again: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4542947&postcount=15

amen to that. your link said it best, the comparison between a mac and a pc cannot be expressed purely in numbers, the overall user experience must be included when comparing these machines (focus on qualitative as well as quantitative)

gothamm
Mar 15, 2008, 06:23 PM
wait wait wait...

Apple is greedy and Microsoft is...?

I'll wait...

Thinkpads are so much cheaper because they sell so many units and quality control sucks...

are you saying that apple's quality control is superb?

McToma
Mar 15, 2008, 06:31 PM
I traditionally like Thinkpads, but their screens suck some serious ass. The LED backlit X300 is supposed to have a pretty good screen, but none of the T series screens come even close to the worst screen available in the MBP.

X300 screen sucks too... the resolution is tiny and something about the LED backlight gives me a major headache and eye fatigue after only a few minutes of use regardless of the brightness. I returned my thinkpad x300 the day it came. Sure you can open two webpages side by side more easily on an x300 than a macbook at the same screen size but I can't read those webpages on the x300 since my eyes feel like they've been gouged out.

mstens
Mar 15, 2008, 06:35 PM
Because ThinkPads are business class laptops just like Dell's Latitudes or HP business line. Businesses don't upgrade all their hardware all at once sometimes because depending on the size of your business it can be incredibly expensive and they may not even need the upgrade at the current time. I also prefer to have a PCMCIA slot myself because I have to have an aircard for internet and the Express cards from AT&T are nothing to brag about. I prefer Sierra Wireless aircards and their only two options is the PCMCIA version or the USB one. I have the Sierra Wireless 875 now and it's a very strong and reliable performer.

I wish they had serial ports. That'd make connecting to cisco devices sooo much easier than having to carry a USB > serial dongle around too :D

gcmexico
Mar 15, 2008, 06:46 PM
Why must someone buy a laptop or computer and start a thread on a "MAC" site that their laptop is awesome and that Apple sucks, specs suck, blah blah...why don't you post your pointless thread in a Thinkpad forum where they would appreciate your rave reviews??? I don't need to read that you love your ugly laptop on a site that is suppose to provide rumors for Mac products, how is this thread a rumor?? MacGod do secretely find pleasure in allowing these threads to be posted???

All I can say is that I used PC's all my life till I got my IMAC, since then I have spent most of my days on a computer, it has revolutionized how I do everything now...I thought that was the point of technology!!! I have never met someone who bought an Apple product and does not use it religiously or has not bought more Apple products because of it...but I know countless people who buy a PC and use it a couple of months, and then never touch it again...eventually the PC just because a decoration for the home nothing else!!!

You shouldn't care how people spend there money or why Apple makes so much of it....I repeat those that cry can't afford to buy!!! ENOUGH SAID:mad:

trip1ex
Mar 15, 2008, 06:48 PM
Nice laptop, but hardly blows away the $1219 AR new Macbook from Amazon.

You get a few more features (no slot-loading disc drive probably tho,) but you have to use Windows. Ask Bill Gates. It's all about the software.

You get a better resale value on Macbooks anyway so paying a bit more doesn't kill ya.

iCeFuSiOn
Mar 15, 2008, 06:50 PM
Nice laptop, but hardly blows away the $1219 AR new Macbook from Amazon.

You get a few more features (no slot-loading disc drive probably tho,) but you have to use Windows. Ask Bill Gates. It's all about the software.

You get a better resale value on Macbooks anyway so paying a bit more doesn't kill ya.
Agreed, it's not just the hardware, it's also about the software and the level of integration. Sure, you can get a ThinkPad for less than a MacBook Pro, but I can damn well guarantee that the level of integration between the hardware and the software is anywhere near as close as Mac OS X and an Apple built machine. The left hand talks to the right hand a lot more in the Apple world of computing it would seem.

deputy_doofy
Mar 15, 2008, 06:59 PM
OS X can handle all ram but needs 3gb to run properly.

This is false. I use:
10.5.2 on my MBP (2gb RAM)
10.4.11 on my PMG5 (3gb RAM)
10.3.9 on my PBG4 (512mb RAM)

Obviously, on my PB OS X slows down in some situations, but it doesn't slow down at all on the MBP, even with 512mb alotted to Win XP in Parallels.

Zeos
Mar 15, 2008, 07:01 PM
Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.

You could have gotten a Linux machine for even less if you're just worried about cost. So, you were willing to pay more for Windows, I was willing to pay more for a Mac. Linux is the Hyundai, Windows the Focus, and Mac OS X the Lexus. You get what you pay for! :D I would happily shell out more cash for a computer that I can actually enjoy using.

zepharus
Mar 15, 2008, 07:02 PM
ok.. thanks for that. The reason apple products are expensive to what people compare them too, is becuase theyre difficult to compare. No other hardware comes with OSX, and since you cant buy it, its only worth what you think its worth. I think OSX is worth the cost difference, and you do not.



My macbook has 1GB of RAM, and can quite easily run OSX and Windows with no applications open properly. In fact, I can run applications in both, at the same time (Parallels) without issue. I do agree that OSX uses more RAM than XP, however i fear your exagerating a small part. OS X can run comfortable on 512MB, and I use XP on a really old PC with a 400MHZ processor and 184MB RAM. My iPhone has more power than that!

What the OP fails to understand is that Pee Cee's have become commodities. This means that they are basically one set of MASS GOODS.

Apple computers are a specialty item. I for one am glad they they exist as a hardware and software company. Thier computers are a more complex version of the XBox 360/PS3/Wii Model, meaning all software is designed and works well on the SAME set of harware.

There are definatly compromises with Apple hardware but you deal with that because the Os is great. Im also here to tell you that that Thinkpad , performace wise would be negligible to the midlevel MB.

Have fun with the software side of Pee Cee...

latestmonkey
Mar 15, 2008, 07:09 PM
Can i ask the rest of the thread denizens a question?

Why are we bothering? If he wants to use windows, let him. Why are we even bothering to respond to this obvious troll of a thread. (Of course, I'm guilty too...)


Did I pay $1000 more for OSX? Not really. But even if I did, it's worth every penny.

Digital Skunk
Mar 15, 2008, 07:09 PM
I won't. OS X is the best but I want a solid laptop that does what I need to do and you know, XP does that. NOT using VISTA, NEVER WILL. XP can handle it. Just wish it saw more than 3gb of ram but with XP you don't need more than 3gb. Its funny like that. OS X can handle all ram but needs 3gb to run properly. XP uses 500mb with no apps open. But thats running webserver and stuff.

I agree with this one, except the lie that OS X needs 3GBs of RAM to run.

I wish Apple made better more robust hardware.... and for most graphics and media professionals or anyone that needs simplicity OS X is the way. XP works but it's a headache to use with pro media apps. As for Apple hardware, YUCK. I could care less about the keyboard, and SD slots since I don't weigh them that heavily.... but I would love to have a MBP with a second HDD.

PC wins on the hardware side, Apple wins with the software.

Enough said.

macenforcer
Mar 15, 2008, 07:18 PM
Don't you all hate the fact that you only have ONE choice in a laptop computer? I mean steve is like here you go this is all you are getting, cost us $400 to make but still going to charge $2500 hahaha. meanwhile Lenovo and thousands of other companies are staying competitive and giving all kids of options, better hardware and massive discounts. Sorry, tired of having steves foot up my butt. He can keep his 5yr old notebook. He won't be getting a single dollar from me until he can make an acceptible laptop.

The macbook has become a disgusting old piece of junk. Its designed for older processors hence the fans never shutting off. Time for a new design. Hell, bring back the pismo, make it widescreen and thinner and I will buy. No way am I buying what they sell now.

soms
Mar 15, 2008, 07:25 PM
You don't even get install discs on factory PC's anymore, so I don't see what your point is. Its called saving money, companies do it regardless of who they are.

sushi
Mar 15, 2008, 07:26 PM
Don't you all hate the fact that you only have ONE choice in a laptop computer?
Not sure I understand your point.

I have the option of purchasing a MB, MBA or MBP from Apple. And each model has different configurations available.

On a side note, my PB15 compared to my MBP15, while looking similar, have very different cases and the insides are completely different.

mstens
Mar 15, 2008, 07:32 PM
Well, if you're complaining about a 5 year old case design the T61's pretty much the same case as my 560, from about 1999 :confused:

dtrimble
Mar 15, 2008, 07:42 PM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff

Greedy? Definitely.

But you have to remember, when it comes to marketing and business, price is not a function of the cost to produce and sell something. Price is a function of value, and people's perception of that value.

Some may value what you get on a PC, ThinkPad, etc. more than a MacBook Pro. To them, yes, Apple is unreasonably expensive and not worth the money. But there are millions of others who feel the value you get from Apple is worth the extra price.

My MBP cost me $2,500 before discounts in February last year. I bought it to replace my IBM ThinkPad T41 which had failed to power up any more after a few years. I could have purchased the $1,900 replacement, "comparably" equipped (to the extent that's possible) Lenovo ThinkPad, but I got two computers in one, better quality, stability, etc. on my MBP. And with my military and student discounts combined, it brought my price down to about $2,000.

Too expensive? MUCH more than I would have LIKED to have spent. But I surely did buy it and don't regret it. Worth every dime....to me.


dt

jackflash
Mar 15, 2008, 07:58 PM
Well, I've been a Mac person for long, lone time: Apple Quadra, GSII, Performa, G3, G5, G5 - blah, blah, blah.

I was at a Best But two weeks ago and saw 17" Sony Vaios on sale for $959 - it has Blue Ray and all that jazz. So, I picked one up. It does run Vista, but to be honest, it's not bad at all. I am actually quite used to it and happy. It's never given me a problem (yet).

I was waiting for the MBP 17", but the recent update was too little for me.

I agree with the consensus here though: Apple's have an element, easier to use software. But you do pay for that.

latestmonkey
Mar 15, 2008, 08:08 PM
Don't you all hate the fact that you only have ONE choice in a laptop computer? I mean steve is like here you go this is all you are getting, cost us $400 to make but still going to charge $2500 hahaha. meanwhile Lenovo and thousands of other companies are staying competitive and giving all kids of options, better hardware and massive discounts. Sorry, tired of having steves foot up my butt. He can keep his 5yr old notebook. He won't be getting a single dollar from me until he can make an acceptible laptop.

The macbook has become a disgusting old piece of junk. Its designed for older processors hence the fans never shutting off. Time for a new design. Hell, bring back the pismo, make it widescreen and thinner and I will buy. No way am I buying what they sell now.


We have tons of choices. Sony, Apple, HP, Dell, etc, etc... I chose the one that best serves my needs/wants/budget. I don't understand why you even care? Are you trying to convert us all to PC? Do you think your little switch to a thinkpad means anything to anybody?

I'm extremely happy with my MBP purchase last month. I hope you're as happy with your thinkpad purchase. May you use it in health. That being said... why are you still here?

markrivers
Mar 15, 2008, 08:12 PM
Don't you all hate the fact that you only have ONE choice in a laptop computer? I mean steve is like here you go this is all you are getting, cost us $400 to make but still going to charge $2500 hahaha. meanwhile Lenovo and thousands of other companies are staying competitive and giving all kids of options, better hardware and massive discounts. Sorry, tired of having steves foot up my butt. He can keep his 5yr old notebook. He won't be getting a single dollar from me until he can make an acceptible laptop.

The macbook has become a disgusting old piece of junk. Its designed for older processors hence the fans never shutting off. Time for a new design. Hell, bring back the pismo, make it widescreen and thinner and I will buy. No way am I buying what they sell now.

you'll be tried for TREASON!:D
you should change your name to TAFKAM
(the artist formerly known as macenforcer)

Csmitte
Mar 15, 2008, 08:24 PM
That's sweet.


congrats no need to gain recognition from us?:rolleyes: do what you have to do to get yourself through the mistake you made:) lol JK be well

Cheers!

burningrave101
Mar 15, 2008, 08:37 PM
I've owned several different PC laptops in just the last couple of years and a couple of them were ThinkPads. I had an x61s and a T60 widescreen. I also recently bought a 14.1" T61 but I sent it back to Lenovo for a refund since I went ahead and bought a 15.4" MBP. To me build quality and the quality of the keyboard, trackpad, and LCD are the most important things to me in purchasing any laptop. ThinkPads have real good build quality and keyboards but I can't stand the LCD's and now also the older design look. For portability I definitely like my Lenovo 12.1" x61s but i didn't like how hot it got or the small standard aspect screen. I like the MacBook Pro's current design real well. I wouldn't want them to make any drastic changes unless it were to just make it a little thinner or something. If they switched from aluminum chassis to like carbon fiber chassis so that it was like a Sony VAIO I probably wouldn't even buy another MBP. The aluminum is just one of those things that I really like about it that caused me to buy it. I definitely didn't buy it just to get OS X. OS X is nice and it's lean and fast but I can deal with Windows just fine. I bought my MBP for the looks and the hardware (backlit keyboard, LED-backlit display, DVI out, FireWire 800, 8600M GT 256MB, ect.).

gothamm
Mar 15, 2008, 08:48 PM
its funny to see all the mac users trying to justify their purchases, instead of trying to understand the point the OP is trying to make.

pc = better hardware
mac = better software (in the opinion of many)

its as simple as that...

In the very rare event that OS X gets ported to pc's, i would sell me macbook in a heartbeat. no question about it.

burningrave101
Mar 15, 2008, 08:58 PM
its funny to see all the mac users trying to justify their purchases, instead of trying to understand the point the OP is trying to make.

pc = better hardware
mac = better software (in the opinion of many)

its as simple as that...

In the very rare event that OS X gets ported to pc's, i would sell me macbook in a heartbeat. no question about it.

If that were true I wouldn't of bought a MacBook Pro. I didn't buy it for the software, I bought it for the build quality and the hardware. I've owned a number of different PC laptops and the aluminum casing, keyboard, LED display are certainly a step up from the other laptops I've owned. Whatever software benefits there are are just an added bonus. If Apple trashes their design and build quality in an upcoming redesign then I won't buy another MBP. It's also been stated that Apple uses higher quality components in the innards of the laptop so that may be a reason as to why they last longer running 24/7 than a lot of PC laptops would.

shawmanus
Mar 15, 2008, 09:17 PM
I agree it is not a great idea to put a thread about thinkpad in macbook pro forum, but for a new person considering mac it is a valid question on the price.

I thought 1st generation macbook pros were priced very comptetively. At that time windows with high end cpu would cost 2K. Since then component prices have come down but Macbook pro prices have remained the same.

I wanted to get a macbook pro but a thinkpad R61 with 3GB/250GB HDD/Vista Ultimate/3yrs warranty plus ADP for $1200 was too good to miss. Thinkpad build quality is also awesome.keyboard is the best.Fingerprint reader is also very neat. Screen is just too good. Though the computer at 5.4pounds for a 14.1"WXGA+ is bit on the high side. But thinkpad operate significantly cooler. I dont even need a cooler. Macbook pro bcos of aluminium gets too hot at times.

macenforcer
Mar 15, 2008, 09:31 PM
its funny to see all the mac users trying to justify their purchases, instead of trying to understand the point the OP is trying to make.

pc = better hardware
mac = better software (in the opinion of many)

its as simple as that...

In the very rare event that OS X gets ported to pc's, i would sell me macbook in a heartbeat. no question about it.

Thank you for understanding what I was trying to convey. My whole point is why does apple have to charge us so much for inferior hardware? Its insulting.

mstens
Mar 15, 2008, 10:00 PM
You still don't have a decent graphics card or screen, really having a swappable processor isn't a huge issue and to be honest, while it's certainly easier to swap drives on a thinkpad (probably a good thing with the # of hitachi drives I've had fail in them) cracking the case on either isn't exactly all that difficult. Or perhaps working on mainframe equipment has tainted my perception of ease of repair. Having pretty much all the equipment being argued about in this thread you'd think I might have an understanding of the differences. ;)

The difference is you can get more levels of laptop in PC's. Some are actually more expensive than apples are. Imagine that, including high end Thinkpads.

Oh also, I seem to recall that Thinkpads have been on sale the past few weeks. Or at least, thats what I recall the email I got mentioning

gcmexico
Mar 15, 2008, 10:01 PM
its funny to see all the mac users trying to justify their purchases, instead of trying to understand the point the OP is trying to make.

pc = better hardware
mac = better software (in the opinion of many)

its as simple as that...

In the very rare event that OS X gets ported to pc's, i would sell me macbook in a heartbeat. no question about it.

**
I don't get that...how is PC better hardware? I've never had an issue with my Apple Hardware...they are beautifully made machines...please explain what you mean by pc=better hardware:cool:

Zeos
Mar 15, 2008, 10:04 PM
I mean steve is like here you go this is all you are getting, cost us $400 to make but still going to charge $2500 hahaha.

Hey, I own AAPL, so it's okay with me! :p Regardless, I'm sure Lenovo is taking a large wad of your cash to the bank too. Are you under the impression they are less concerned about profit than Apple?? I think if you look hard enough you're sure to find where they are cutting corners, then you'll be back in Steve's arms, wallet open. ;) After 25 years of PC use, I can confidently say that Apple makes the better overall product by far.

Tallest Skil
Mar 15, 2008, 10:06 PM
...please explain what you mean by pc=better hardware

He means, "PC=better graphics cards".

duffyanneal
Mar 15, 2008, 10:11 PM
Thank you for understanding what I was trying to convey. My whole point is why does apple have to charge us so much for inferior hardware? Its insulting.

I don't see any Porsches or Ferraris in your future. :D

latestmonkey
Mar 15, 2008, 10:12 PM
Thank you for understanding what I was trying to convey. My whole point is why does apple have to charge us so much for inferior hardware? Its insulting.

What exactly do you hope to accomplish? You voted with your purse and bought a thinkpad. That's about all you can do. Good for you. Meanwhile, millions others think the operating system is worth the premium. And millions don't. In the end, Apple is making a lot of money. So what?

Does a Timex work telling time? Sure. But some people prefer a nicer watch. Do you routinely moan about rolex/tag/omega/whatever because they charge more? You could argue that all watches are made from the same components too. Why does one charge more than the other? Because they can. If there's a market for it, then someone will make it.

Do I bitch about rolexes because they charge more for a brand premium? No. I just don't buy one. It's not worth it to me to spend $10k to tell time. What you fail to understand is that some people don't really care if the components inside the mbp are dated or if the case hasn't been redesigned in 5 years. What those who end up buying mbps care about is the COMPLETE PACKAGE. If that package is not for you, that's cool. I'm sure Steve Jobs doesn't hold a grudge against you for buying a Thinkpad.

Do people who buy toyotas go on Lexus forums complaining about why Lexus charges so much? Do you just think you're smarter because you got a better deal with components? I really don't get your motivation here.

latestmonkey
Mar 15, 2008, 10:16 PM
Hey, I own AAPL, so it's okay with me! :p Regardless, I'm sure Lenovo is taking a large wad of your cash to the bank too. Are you under the impression they are less concerned about profit than Apple?? I think if you look hard enough you're sure to find where they are cutting corners, then you'll be back in Steve's arms, wallet open. ;) After 25 years of PC use, I can confidently say that Apple makes the better overall product by far.

I think he's under the impression that Lenovo is an non-profit. Wait until he finds out they have shareholders too. I hear there's a company making $100 wind up PCs for children in Africa. Now THAT's a bargain. Rumored Quad Core Penryn in those puppies. :D

sushi
Mar 15, 2008, 10:16 PM
He means, "PC=better graphics cards".
That would make sense.

I don't see any Porsches or Ferraris in your future. :D
Probably a good observation.

Then again, these types of cars are not for everyone.

cujoe86
Mar 15, 2008, 10:21 PM
I wish more people thought like the OP so I wouldn't have to wait in back of the line for 4 weeks to get my MBP after my order.

Csmitte
Mar 15, 2008, 10:22 PM
Capitalism?

shoulin333
Mar 15, 2008, 10:26 PM
So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX.


ROFL

gothamm
Mar 15, 2008, 10:54 PM
**
I don't get that...how is PC better hardware? I've never had an issue with my Apple Hardware...they are beautifully made machines...please explain what you mean by pc=better hardware:cool:

PC hardware is cheaper, with more options. Macs on the other hand...not so much. $500 for a .2 ghz bump and 40 more GB's. upgrade to 4 gigs of ram for $600. oh, sorry...the notebook is "prettier" and its made of "anodized aluminum" whooaaaa :rolleyes:

I am sorry fellow mac users, but I do not have my self-esteem nor identity tied up in the type of notebook I use.

latestmonkey
Mar 15, 2008, 10:58 PM
PC hardware is cheaper, with more options. Macs on the other hand...not so much. $500 for a .2 ghz bump and 40 more GB's. upgrade to 4 gigs of ram for $600. oh, sorry...the notebook is "prettier" and its made of "anodized aluminum" whooaaaa :rolleyes:

I am sorry fellow mac users, but I do not have my self-esteem nor identity tied up in the type of notebook I use.

apparently is it. thou doth protest too much.

If you care so little, why are you on a forum discussing it?

ehhh.. i'm bored of this thread. it never ends and this "debate" is ridiculous. I don't get why people have to come on here ragging on apple hardware. What is the point.

hotdamn
Mar 15, 2008, 11:03 PM
wait wait wait...

Apple is greedy and Microsoft is...?


needy
;)

noodle654
Mar 15, 2008, 11:06 PM
First of all get the upgrading of the CPU nonsense out of your head by the time the next CPU's are out that are more than 100MHz difference will not work with the chipset due to thermal voltage and FSB changes.

Apple trackpads have unlimited buttons now just only one physical button for thoughts whom prefer it personally i would rather the button is removed completely.

The spec of your laptop is pretty good for the price though i wonder why so many redundant features like modem ports and PCMCIA. Dose it also have Serial and PS 2 :rolleyes:.

Also its a 14 inch brick that is ugly as sin and will give you back problems carrying it around but not before the keys on the keyboard flip of with there tiny clips snapped.

If your sticking with Windows XP, good for you but you know you will be using Vista pretty soon after all it is your upgrade path and new versions of msn and what not will be Vista only.

I couldnt have said it better. I havent really payed attention to TP's. But just looking at the pic it made me laugh. Honestly...a 14.1" screen with NO LED??? First off its a 14.1" screen....I had that on my 14" iBook from 2005. I am pretty sure it wasnt widescreen.

Up to 1.26" thick? That is a brick. On top of that it just looks ugly as hell. The keyboard looks straight outta my Dad's Bloomburg Workstation keyboard...honestly!!

Tray loading drive?? WTF??

Could the fan grills be any bigger??? Just wondering because from the sides it looks ugly as hell.

No Wireless N?


CPU Upgrade is just stupid...honestly upgrading the CPU in the next year will be a total joke.

zgnoud
Mar 15, 2008, 11:06 PM
its called profit + market segmentation.
Business 101 people.

trip1ex
Mar 15, 2008, 11:12 PM
I just hope he has fun using XP on his Thinkpad. I'm sure he'll spend many hours just installing XP and downloading updates and drivers and anti-spyware and anti-virus programs and then going through msconfig etc. Sounds like fun. I'm sure it will be worth saving a few bucks. I'm sure the resale value will be better too.

gothamm
Mar 15, 2008, 11:14 PM
apparently is it. thou doth protest too much.

If you care so little, why are you on a forum discussing it?

ehhh.. i'm bored of this thread. it never ends and this "debate" is ridiculous. I don't get why people have to come on here ragging on apple hardware. What is the point.

nobody here is "ragging" on apple hardware. Its just your self-induced paranoia. If you were comfortable with your mb/mbp, then you'd let it be. :rolleyes:

What I AM saying is this: apple computers are grossly overpriced. I understand that they are appealing to a certain niche, but maybe...just maybe that certain niche needs to re-consider what their machines are truly worth.

macenforcer
Mar 15, 2008, 11:17 PM
PC hardware is cheaper, with more options. Macs on the other hand...not so much. $500 for a .2 ghz bump and 40 more GB's. upgrade to 4 gigs of ram for $600. oh, sorry...the notebook is "prettier" and its made of "anodized aluminum" whooaaaa :rolleyes:

I am sorry fellow mac users, but I do not have my self-esteem nor identity tied up in the type of notebook I use.


Good post. Sooooo true.

thechidz
Mar 16, 2008, 12:07 AM
nobody here is "ragging" on apple hardware. Its just your self-induced paranoia. If you were comfortable with your mb/mbp, then you'd let it be. :rolleyes:

What I AM saying is this: apple computers are grossly overpriced. I understand that they are appealing to a certain niche, but maybe...just maybe that certain niche needs to re-consider what their machines are truly worth.

sure... maybe you are right.

but it doesnt matter because people are willing to pay for apple products

gothamm
Mar 16, 2008, 12:18 AM
sure... maybe you are right.

but it doesnt matter because people are willing to pay for apple products

no denying that. Apple's business strategy is admirable.

TimeWaster101
Mar 16, 2008, 12:52 AM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

Ya thats great except for the part where you have to run the lousiest operating system, WINDOWS! AHHHHH!!!!!!

And besides, for $1200 you could get a student discount or refurb Macbook with close to the same specs. Another thing, you pay a premium because Apple puts good hardware in there. Congrats, but I'll take an overpriced mac over a cheap PC with less specs any day because the simple fact is that it just runs better on a mac. Are macs perfect? no. Are they overpriced? Yes. Are they overpriced enough to jump ship to the PC dingy? no.

PLUS, they hold their value, run longer, etc. I've had my ibook G4 for 4 years and it still runs fast. So, I'd say stick with mac.
:apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::a pple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple:

jjahshik32
Mar 16, 2008, 01:03 AM
Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever.

Doesnt the thinkpad have the same design as well all these years, except now that Lenovo just uses cheaper materials instead of IBM did? I know its true that the t series material is different, if you compare older t series before lenovo and today's thinkpad quality is not as good.

No option to remove the hard

I put a hitachi travelstar 7k200 in my mbp and only took 10 minutes and dont ever have to go back in there again! =D

no option to remove the optical bay

Why would you ever need to?? And if your answer is bluray, forget about it~ One word "external."

no 2 button trackpad
2 finger click works better

THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

My fans only come on when its doing heavy intensive work and the fan's rpm idles on average at 2000rpm and dont hear it most of the time.

Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

Thats the part that bothers me, alot of people gets frustrated if they can kinda hear their gentle whisper of the fans, but to me that's a good sign that the fan is working fine. As for replacing the cpu later on, dont you have integrated graphics chip that's soldered to the board and the newer montevina/nehalem would be totally different board with newer soldered on gpu? Might as well just sell (apple has best resale value) and just buy the next best thing years later.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX.
I have a feeling you'll be aching to run OSX after a little while.

But in the end these are my opinions and you've chosen yours (for now) and all I can say is congrats and enjoy. I used to be a thinkpad lover as well.

pondie84
Mar 16, 2008, 01:12 AM
nobody here is "ragging" on apple hardware. Its just your self-induced paranoia. If you were comfortable with your mb/mbp, then you'd let it be. :rolleyes:

What I AM saying is this: apple computers are grossly overpriced. I understand that they are appealing to a certain niche, but maybe...just maybe that certain niche needs to re-consider what their machines are truly worth.

But that's not really what the thread was stated to be about. The thread stated that Apple are greedy.

The answer to that is that all businesses are as greedy as the market will allow them to be. Any CEO who didn't do all they can to increase profit margins would be out the door quick smart.

Whether a product is overpriced or not is up to the individual consumer. Do I think some Apple products are overpriced? Yes, because they're too expensive for what I need. However, other products are just right for what I need/want so I pay the alotted price for that (or buy second hand/refurbished/eBay etc.)

The overall thread just seems like needless whining. If you consider Apple products overpriced and are not willing to pay... have a nice day. However it's hardly something the rest of the world needs to know about.

jjahshik32
Mar 16, 2008, 01:20 AM
All I can say is Apple=Dell.

cthomet
Mar 16, 2008, 01:37 AM
I thought 1st generation macbook pros were priced very comptetively. At that time windows with high end cpu would cost 2K. Since then component prices have come down but Macbook pro prices have remained the same.

i agree. and i also agree with is that there is a need for a redesign. i think prices could come down some, especially in areas like charging for the apple remote. i think both problems will be solved in the next revision. there have been many instances when apple has released a new product and made the new product better and cheaper than the previous generation.

so, as of now, there is some validity to the statement that pcs are a better option than mac for some. however, apple is innovative, the next revision should be a game changer. thats what apples known for. they are constantly pushing the envelope in software and design (put a thinkpad and a mbp side by side and tell me which one looks sexier, i dont care how old the design is). think about the incorporation of touch technology. apple is ahead of the curve and this x-factor is what sells some people on apple.

you can complain that pcs have better graphics cards at a cheaper price and more options but when it boils down to it, how many people actually need all the options offered by lenovo for example? notebooks are consumer products, and while there are always going to be more demanding customers, a company will always seek to satisfy the majority.

as for prices quoted on this, lenovo is having a 25% off sale right now, so keep that in mind.

FF_productions
Mar 16, 2008, 01:59 AM
Not trying to feed the flames but I'd take a Thinkpad any day as long as it didn't run Windows. Macs are wonderful on the software side. I think they put so much thought into the design and making it pretty they they forget about quality control.

My Mac Pro...that's a different story. Best desktop I've ever used.

tip
Mar 16, 2008, 02:06 AM
Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever.
Same goes for the Thinkpad.

As a disclaimer, I love both the MBP and ThinkPad.

rosemarycane
Mar 16, 2008, 02:19 AM
I thought I would chime in and give my two cents. Over the years I have owned several thinkpad models starting with the T43. Then I received a T60 as a replacement for the T43. Both of the thinkpad models are built like brick **** houses, no doubt. However, they did have their issues (fan noise, standby etc.)
Best keyboard on a laptop I have used, sturdy, reliable machines. I ended up with an Asus W3J as my last windows box.

Having recently purchased a MBP, I can say that it has been a good experience. The computer seems to be built well and the software including the OS is great. Now having said that, yes you could buy a comparatively spec'ed pc for less, or even a more powerful pc for the same amount. However, I think it all comes down to what you do and what you need. My job is to teach other teachers how to use technology so that includes PCs and MACs. I needed a machine to cover both camps so I purchased a MBP. If your needs are different, decide on what you need to run, built quality, etc. and pick your machine.

You could argue all day which machine is better, but in the end it comes down to perception and what best fits YOU. I would rather have a Toyota over a BMW or Lexus but thats me. Many would disagree. Its personal taste and your needs that should dictate what kind of machine you purchase.

jamie329
Mar 16, 2008, 02:23 AM
nobody here is "ragging" on apple hardware. Its just your self-induced paranoia. If you were comfortable with your mb/mbp, then you'd let it be. :rolleyes:

What I AM saying is this: apple computers are grossly overpriced. I understand that they are appealing to a certain niche, but maybe...just maybe that certain niche needs to re-consider what their machines are truly worth.

What a product is worth, and the cost to produce it are completely unrelated. A product is worth what people are willing to pay. Economics 101.

FF_productions
Mar 16, 2008, 02:27 AM
You could argue all day which machine is better, but in the end it comes down to perception and what best fits YOU. I would rather have a Toyota over a BMW or Lexus but thats me. Many would disagree. Its personal taste and your needs that should dictate what kind of machine you purchase.

That's all it is in the end.

My friend rejected my thoughts on getting a Mac...now he has a HP notebook.

Wise decision? Let him find out.

I got a Mac cuz I wanted one...not because of the Cult or Steve Jobs awesomeness or any of that ********t.

I dealt with Windows for 5 years...yes 5 years and it got worse every year. I hated the concept of building a PC from scratch and all the technical crap that came along with it.

That's all I have to say on this. I'd get into a whole story on how I slowly gradually got to the Mac but nobody would care...

digitalnicotine
Mar 16, 2008, 03:02 AM
Why is Apple so greedy title is hilarious. But this isn't true. If they were "sooo" greedy, as the OP claims, then they would have gone belly up years ago, due to overcharging for their products, causing customers not to buy them. Now, lets focus on reality, and recognize the fact that Apple's prices must be reasonable enough, as they continue to sell. This is, in a nutshell, how you determine what is too much, and what is not. Not by what you personally can or cannot afford. They aren't pricing their items according to your personal budget.

Several people have agreed that a big selling point for Apple is OSX. How is it that the allegedly "soooo greedy" company charges significantly less money for their OS than Microsoft? Have you seen the cost of Vista? It's roughly double, unless you purchase the stripped down OEM version. Does this make Microsoft "sooo greedy"? Or is it merely another company that charges as much as people are willing to pay?

Basically, it seems to me that you need to slam products that you can't afford, just to feel better about your more affordable purchase. Frankly, your efforts do not reflect poorly on the company you target, they reflect poorly on you. People have choices and preferences. They tend to vary, but this doesn't make one right and the other wrong. It just means the majority are likely to experience something they prefer, rather than be forced to deal with something they do not. This is a good thing, and certainly not something to get snarky over. If you like something, buy it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. Nobody is paying any of us to endorse competing products. Enjoy your choice.

gothamm
Mar 16, 2008, 03:10 AM
What a product is worth, and the cost to produce it are completely unrelated. A product is worth what people are willing to pay. Economics 101.

Thats a great model for apple. But is it beneficial to the average joe like yourself? I could give a rats ass about apple's profit margins, as I don't own any apple stock. I care about competitive pricing. Like many posters have pointed out, apple's prices used to be competitive a few years back when component costs were high.

But since apple has developed such a blind following over the years, why lower prices? BRILLIANT!


Economics 101? Ok let me ask you this:

Can you be going into an apple store, and whip out your credit card and buy...lets say a $6000 laptop and rationalize to yourself "oh according to the law of economics, the demand of this product methodically follows its extremely high cost. so in accordance to the law of supply and demand, I am going to shamelessly ignore personal judgement on my behalf and shell out money from my son's college tuition account...he's a bum anyways"


:confused:


the world's gone crazy man.

digitalnicotine
Mar 16, 2008, 03:38 AM
Thats a great model for apple. But is it beneficial to the average joe like yourself? I could give a rats ass about apple's profit margins, as I don't own any apple stock. I care about competitive pricing. Like many posters have pointed out, apple's prices used to be competitive a few years back when component costs were high.

But since apple has developed such a blind following over the years, why lower prices? BRILLIANT!


Economics 101? Ok let me ask you this:

Can you be going into an apple store, and whip out your credit card and buy...lets say a $6000 laptop and rationalize to yourself "oh according to the law of economics, the demand of this product methodically follows its extremely high cost. so in accordance to the law of supply and demand, I am going to shamelessly ignore personal judgement on my behalf and shell out money from my son's college tuition account...he's a bum anyways"


:confused:


the world's gone crazy man.

Um... Yeah. I think you missed a crucial point. Nobody is being forced to buy anything. If it costs more than you can afford? Or even more than you want to pay? Then you can walk away, and not buy it. And I promise you, that by doing this, there will be no repercussions. This is not craziness. This is called choosing what you want and can afford. If someone can afford to buy a $6,000 laptop, and they want it? Then they can buy it. If not? then they won't. This is not poor personal judgment. People buy things that they want and can afford. This is how the world I live in works. What world are you referring to?

I'm sorry that Apple products are apparently outside of what you consider affordable. Good thing there is nobody holding a gun to your head, forcing you to blindly purchase their products, eh?

PowerFullMac
Mar 16, 2008, 03:55 AM
I havent read the whole 4 page thread, but it seems a good solution for the OP is to install OSX86 on his Thinkpad.

Also, OS X dosent need 3GB of RAM to run properly, I used Tiger on a 900MHz iBook G3 with 384MB of RAM just fine :)

gothamm
Mar 16, 2008, 03:58 AM
Um... Yeah. I think you missed a crucial point. Nobody is being forced to buy anything. If it costs more than you can afford? Or even more than you want to pay? Then you can walk away, and not buy it. And I promise you, that by doing this, there will be no repercussions. This is not craziness. This is called choosing what you want and can afford. If someone can afford to buy a $6,000 laptop, and they want it? Then they can buy it. If not? then they won't. This is not poor personal judgment. People buy things that they want and can afford. This is how the world I live in works. What world are you referring to?

I'm sorry that Apple products are apparently outside of what you consider affordable. Good thing there is nobody holding a gun to your head, forcing you to blindly purchase their products, eh?

you missed my point, since you were too busy making yours.

The essence of my argument is that choice is good...something which apple does not like to offer. why would they? Apple has cultivated a monopolistic niche...I wouldn't either if i were them.

Competition is good. Does any pro-american citizen like....debate that?

and thank god there is no one to put a gun against my head, making me buy a $6000 apple laptop. It'll probably just be a slightly bumped 2.8 ghz macbook pro with a 320 gb hard drive and 4 gigs of RAM ;)

you are cutting in with the "I am rich, so i will buy whatever i damn please" argument. That just ain't gonna cut it. There are better options for hardware out there for us folks who like to use common sense and shop smart. Competition creates its own little "checks and balances" system and people like the OP are simply taking advantage of that and buying the better value.

Apple hardware is excellent. just grossly overpriced.

digitalnicotine
Mar 16, 2008, 04:16 AM
you missed my point, since you were too busy making yours.

The essence of my argument is that choice is good...something which apple does not like to offer. why would they? Apple has cultivated a monopolistic niche...I wouldn't either if i were them.

(repetitive babble snip)

How is Apple not offering a choice?? (See nobody holding guns to anyone's head to purchase said items above) How can a monopoly be the underdog while competing with companies that offer products that essentially do the same thing? If your point is that choice is good, then why are you repeatedly whining about Apple's prices, when you can choose not to pay them (and on an Apple site to boot :confused:). Do you think Apple is going to read your posts and then lower their prices to suit your idea of what is affordable?

Purchasing Apple products make me rich? LOL! Ridiculous. Income has very little do to with it. Expendable income, however, is more of a factor. The ability to save up for what you value, choose, and really want are other factors. There are plenty of teenagers on this site who have done just that, and are now owners of Apple products. So who is this average joe you refer to? Because if a teenager attending school full time can afford Apple Products, I think you need to re-evaluate the word average, as it's not subjective to your personal opinion.

macenforcer
Mar 16, 2008, 04:46 AM
Do you think Apple is going to read your posts and then lower their prices to suit your idea of what is affordable?



LOL! Not with comments pooring in like yours. Just shooting yourself in the foot.

digitalnicotine
Mar 16, 2008, 04:48 AM
LOL! Not with comments pooring in like yours. Just shooting yourself in the foot.

Heh. But seriously, I know you and I agree it's not likely, and we'd all be ecstatic if they actually did. :)

youradhere4222
Mar 16, 2008, 05:08 AM
While I have to admit Thinkpads might be the best non-Apple laptops, they have their downsides as well.

Not that they're more expensive than Apple, but the prices for the same hardware comes within $200. If you're planning on spending over a $1000, $200 isn't that much...

Also, if you're going to bitch about the MacBook's design, bear in mind that the Thinkpad has had the same design since Clinton's first-term.

I was a bit impressed by the fact that they had a 2.7 pound notebook, but it's specs were horrible. I believe it had a 1.2GHz processor and 1GB of RAM, and at that it was only a few hundred less than the MacBook Air.

While I admit to paying more for Apple computers simply because they're Apples, I get three key things:


OS X: The best operating system available. Also, in before some Linux user comes in claiming how cool his open source software is.
Design: I'll admit it -- Apple computers look "cool". I tend to take a second look at a MacBook Pro as opposed to a Thinkpad if I'm walking through a room. It's the same thing for a nice car, Oakleys, having a nice phone or wearing Hollister.
Better Hardware: Apple computers are made better and last longer. My Dell is two years old and it's a piece of crap despite the fact that I've treated it fairly (as I do with all of my computers). Even my mom's Thinkpad is worn out after two years of use.

nufanec
Mar 16, 2008, 05:28 AM
stability my ass. Whenever i pop in a dvd, i get an error message that my computer needs to restart. Whenever i try to partition for bootcamp, error message must restart. there goes all of the other applications i had open at that time. hard drive partitions are a nightmare, extracting big files are a nightmare. Had i not been able to run windows on my macbook, i would have never ever went mac.

Tiger might have been awesome when it reached maturity, but the relatively young leopard is full of bugs. Not even the bugs that picky people point out...I am talking basic *****. Like, it would be freaking nice that i dont get error messages when i transfer files from my external HD.

That sounds like a kernel panic which generally means hardware problems rather than software. Anyway, if it is software do an archive and install and that should sort you out. If it doesnt, take it to you nearest apple store as it will need hardware repaired.

cujoe86
Mar 16, 2008, 08:30 AM
Speaking about never ending debates...mattes vs glossy anyone?

CalmEnvy
Mar 16, 2008, 09:17 AM
Nice buy. They one thing I don't like about the Thinkpads are how they look, other then that there pretty good machines. One thing I like about Windows Laptops are that you can remove basically everything almost and replace them.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 09:26 AM
macenforcer or gothamwhatever - have you guys ever taken an economics class?

How is apple a monopoly? How? How do they NOT give you a choice? Here's what you fail to understand:

Operation system = product
Windows = product
OSX = product

various hardware configurations run those products. You have CHOICE on what products you want. It just so happens that if you want OSX, you have to buy it with mac hardware. Apple (in the eyes of some) built a better mousetrap and they beat a path to apple's door. What's so wrong about that.

Guess what? if you want a ferrari engine, you have to buy it with... wait for it... A FERRARI! Is anyone calling Ferrari a monopoly? Why is Ferrari so damn greedy?! I bet you the parts that go into a Ferrari don't cost $200,000! They're not giving me a choice to get it for $50,000! Corporate bastards. I can only afford a Honda. WHIIIIIIIIIIIIINE!

I finally get the point of this thread from OP: 'I am smart. You guys are dumb. As a smart consumer, I refuse to pay apple prices for obsolete hardware and an ugly outdated designed laptop.' Well hoooray for you. My dumb ass is fully enjoying my MBP with Mac OSX Leopard. And plenty more people are too. We made a CHOICE to buy mac hardware. Are you so insecure in your purchase of your thinkpad you have to come on here and make yourself feel better by pointing out that we all overpaid and you are the smartest consumer in the world? Awesome. My time and blood pressure levels are worth not having the blue screen of death.

nick9191
Mar 16, 2008, 09:33 AM
No1. That thing will be worth a quarter of what you paid for it in a year, wheras I'll still be able to sell my macbook for loads.
No2. Its fugly.
No3. It's running Windows.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/5153-IMG7415s.jpg Thats the laptop in question

macenforcer
Mar 16, 2008, 12:42 PM
Boy oh boy. 5 pages and nobody gets what I said, well most of you don't. Look this is not a thinkpad is better then macbook thread, its a apple is greedy thread.

If Lenovo can pack all those great options into their thinkpad and charge $1100 for it why does apple charge $2500 for less options? Greed? Sticking up for apple when they are ripping your off just makes you look like you need to be shaved. Baaahhhh.

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 12:46 PM
How is apple a monopoly?

Of course Apple has a monopoly on Apple products. Ferrari also has a monopoly on Ferraris. The word doesn't necessarily mean "bad"; it's simply a reflection of the fact that one company is the sole source of a good or service. Yes, Apple has an iPod monopoly. They also have a Leopard monopoly, a Macbook monopoly, and a Mac Pro monopoly.

GAS
Mar 16, 2008, 12:47 PM
Boy oh boy. 5 pages and nobody gets what I said, well most of you don't. Look this is not a thinkpad is better then macbook thread, its a apple is greedy thread.

If Lenovo can pack all those great options into their thinkpad and charge $1100 for it why does apple charge $2500 for less options? Greed? Sticking up for apple when they are ripping your off just makes you look like you need to be shaved. Baaahhhh.

A huge multinational corporation that is...greedy...:eek:

Well I never! :rolleyes:

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 12:48 PM
Boy oh boy. 5 pages and nobody gets what I said, well most of you don't. Look this is not a thinkpad is better then macbook thread, its a apple is greedy thread.

If Lenovo can pack all those great options into their thinkpad and charge $1100 for it why does apple charge $2500 for less options? Greed? Sticking up for apple when they are ripping your off just makes you look like you need to be shaved. Baaahhhh.

You know why Apple sells them for $2500? BECAUSE THEY CAN. It's called business. And as many people have pointed out, they are more than willing to pay a premium because of the integration of OSX with the hardware. Too bad that doesn't jive with your sensibilities. If you aren't willing to pay it then don't. This is a free country I believe.

Try to follow along with this statement: Sometimes 2+2 = 5. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Why is someone willing to pay $10M for a Van Gogh and someone else only willing to pay $5M for a Mattise? (or hell, even a different Van Gogh). I mean all the paint is the same right? And you get pretty much the same utility out of it. Because the way it's put together, because they can, and because it meets a perceived value to it.

We don't really care whether the thinkpad is better than the mbp or the mbp is better than the thinkpad in terms of components and specs, which is what you're totally hung up on. We like that it works. It works for our needs and our wants. What don't you get about that? You are not smarter than apple consumers because they bought a mbp. Apple is not GREEDY because they price things according to what the market will bear. They are simply smart business people. If the products sucked and people would only pay $100 for a mbp, then that's the price of the mbp. Are you trying to tell me that if Lenovo could sell their thinkpads for $2500, they wouldn't? Seriously? What pollyanna world do you live in?

Of course Apple has a monopoly on Apple products. Ferrari also has a monopoly on Ferraris. The word doesn't necessarily mean "bad"; it's simply a reflection of the fact that one company is the sole source of a good or service. Yes, Apple has an iPod monopoly. They also have a Leopard monopoly, a Macbook monopoly, and a Mac Pro monopoly.


Uhh... yeah.. that's not a monopoly.

rorycornell
Mar 16, 2008, 12:52 PM
Good machine but it is running xp with viruses spybots etcetra
with mac you dont get that crap :apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple:

cthomet
Mar 16, 2008, 12:56 PM
Apple hardware is excellent. just grossly overpriced.

to be honest, this is a great point. and i think it is important to realize that apple is overpriced because they can be. they offer the best os, but not the best options. they can charge more because people are willing to pay more for a superior product. im not sure what is so groundbreaking about this concept, as several people have pointed out.


If Lenovo can pack all those great options into their thinkpad and charge $1100 for it why does apple charge $2500 for less options? Greed? Sticking up for apple when they are ripping your off just makes you look like you need to be shaved. Baaahhhh.

yes apple is charging too much. we get that. but apple is offering the product i want, and i am willing to pay extra for that.

that said, i do think apple should lower prices. but that doesnt mean they are going to. again, charging more isnt out of pure greed. if you think lenovo is just in the market for fun you are wrong. every company is "greedy." they are looking to make as much money as possible off the products they make. apple included.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 12:59 PM
I wonder if someone offered the OP to double his salary for the exact same work he's doing right now, would he turn it down because it was "greedy"?

I mean, it's the same work right?

macenforcer
Mar 16, 2008, 01:05 PM
I wonder if someone offered the OP to double his salary for the exact same work he's doing right now, would he turn it down because it was "greedy"?

I mean, it's the same work right?


I guess if you went into a car dealership and they tried to charge you double you would say, its ok, its the car I want and they are ripping me off because of capitalism and supply and demand. Here you go, there is double for the exact same car being sold across the street. Thanks for raping me. Its worth it to be raped. LOL.

marine610610
Mar 16, 2008, 01:10 PM
I have to admit, if i could load OSX on any platform i would not own a MBP. For the money i could have had a little better hardware to be sure. Apple is smart in controlling where their software is loaded. I do wish they offered a "gaming" type platform though. My MBP rocks when encoding, using CS3 etc.., but it sucks at gaming.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 01:11 PM
I guess if you went into a car dealership and they tried to charge you double you would say, its ok, its the car I want and they are ripping me off because of capitalism and supply and demand. Here you go, there is double for the exact same car being sold across the street. Thanks for raping me. Its worth it to be raped. LOL.

That is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever ever heard. It's not EXACTLY the car that is sold across the street. If it was, I'd walk across the street. You know why? Because I have free will and choice in a capitalistic society. AND the car dealership that's charging double would quickly go out of business.

If you're saying the Thinkpad is EXACTLY the same laptop as the MBP, then you're not worth arguing with at all.

Seriously, do you have any sense whatsoever about how business works? You're being absolutely destroyed on all sides of this argument. Your reasoning is laughable on all fronts.

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 01:28 PM
Uhh... yeah.. that's not a monopoly.

Sure it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

DaveF
Mar 16, 2008, 01:36 PM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal?:confused: Apple has had a 15% - 30% premium over similarly powerful "PCs" for at least 20 years now. If anything, it seems with the transition to Intel CPUs, Apple has become more competitive with their computers priced close to those of Dell and their ilk.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 01:37 PM
Sure it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

did you bother scrolling down at all?

"A monopoly is not merely the state of having control over a product; it also means that there is no real alternative to the monopolized product."

As much as I love my mac and ipod, to say there is no real alternative is a bit much.

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 01:40 PM
As much as I love my mac and ipod, to say there is no real alternative is a bit much.

All right. Could you point out legal means to running OS X without Apple hardware?

Apogee
Mar 16, 2008, 01:42 PM
Look this thread is not about osx being better than XP. It is a given, but the whole greedy ways of apple. If I can buy a thinkpad for $1200 FULL loaded then why do I have to pay $2500 for the same computer with half the specs??? Apple is ripping everyone off plain and simple and they know they can do it because they have os x. Let apple license os x and watch their hardware business go out the freakin window OVERNIGHT.

Oh I also have a 15" thinkpad t61 and I paid the SAME amount. Just doesn't have a webcam or verizon.

Why are your prices so cheap? Something just doesn't add up, you cannot possibly get a 2.5ghz penryn laptop for $1100.

http://www-604.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10000036&catalogId=-36&langId=036&categoryId=4611686018425096207&seriesid=2056940

Even the webstore disagrees with you. People can buy millions of that laptop at that price, scrap it for parts, and make a profit.

burningrave101
Mar 16, 2008, 01:44 PM
Why are your prices so cheap? Something just doesn't add up, you cannot possibly get a 2.5ghz penryn laptop for $1100.

http://www-604.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10000036&catalogId=-36&langId=036&categoryId=4611686018425096207&seriesid=2056940

Even the webstore disagrees with you. People can buy millions of that laptop at that price, scrap it for parts, and make a profit.

Through the CPP discount site and using a coupon or through the main Lenovo site with a coupon and FatCash you can get one with that config for around $1100. You just have to wait for the sales.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 01:45 PM
All right. Could you point out legal means to running OS X without Apple hardware?

So proprietary software is a monopoly? Holy crap. Someone call the Justice Department. Nintendo must be investigated!!! Come on man, don't be silly.

macenforcer
Mar 16, 2008, 01:45 PM
Why are your prices so cheap? Something just doesn't add up, you cannot possibly get a 2.5ghz penryn laptop for $1100.

http://www-604.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10000036&catalogId=-36&langId=036&categoryId=4611686018425096207&seriesid=2056940

Even the webstore disagrees with you. People can buy millions of that laptop at that price, scrap it for parts, and make a profit.

Check out slickdeals. Lenovo contantly offers 25% off with an additional 10% off. I got in on a deal that had 25% off and an additional 15% off. Apple never ever does that. Another reason why pcs are a better deal.

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 01:47 PM
Why are your prices so cheap? Something just doesn't add up, you cannot possibly get a 2.5ghz penryn laptop for $1100.

http://www-604.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10000036&catalogId=-36&langId=036&categoryId=4611686018425096207&seriesid=2056940

Even the webstore disagrees with you. People can buy millions of that laptop at that price, scrap it for parts, and make a profit.

Here's how to do it:

1. Go to dealigg.com

2. Copy the weekly Lenovo e-coupon.

3. Go to Lenovo.

4. Configure laptop.

5. Enter e-coupon, save hundreds.

Lenovo has near-constant coupons available. I've monitored prices for the last few months, and there's hardly a day when you can't knock a few hundred off a Thinkpad if you use the coupons.

So proprietary software is a monopoly? Holy crap. Someone call the Justice Department. Nintendo must be investigated!!! Come on man, don't be silly.

Again, you're getting worked up over this because you keep interpreting monopoly as a bad word. It's simply a factual description of Apple's market control over OS X. Your exaggerations show how you associate the word, which keeps you from looking at the situation without prejudice when Apple is involved.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 01:50 PM
Again, you're getting worked up over this because you keep interpreting monopoly as a bad word. It isn't. It's simply a factual description of Apple's market control over OS X.


No, I'm getting worked up because you have no idea what a monopoly really is.

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 01:52 PM
No, I'm getting worked up because you have no idea what a monopoly really is.

Nope--you're interpreting "monopoly" as "illegal" which leads you to defend Apple in lockstep fanboy fashion.

Apogee
Mar 16, 2008, 01:53 PM
You can pick between WXGA and WXGA+ for the 14" and 15" models; that's one of the biggest advantages the Thinkpad has over the Macbook/Pro right off the bat. In fact, should I hop back to Windows, this is one of the primary reasons I'll get a Thinkpad. You can customize the heck out of their computers online.

But the Thinkpads do not offer the high quality LED screens that Apple is using. Apple uses innovative cutting edge technologies.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 01:55 PM
Nope--you're interpreting "monopoly" as "illegal" which leads you to defend Apple in lockstep fanboy fashion.

Hahaha. Whether or not a certain type of monopoly is illegal (and there are both), yourr definition of a monopoly is just flat out wrong. No matter how you cut it, whether you're for apple or against apple or indifferent, apple is by no means a monopoly. Get a clue.

jamie329
Mar 16, 2008, 01:56 PM
Thats a great model for apple. But is it beneficial to the average joe like yourself? I could give a rats ass about apple's profit margins, as I don't own any apple stock. I care about competitive pricing. Like many posters have pointed out, apple's prices used to be competitive a few years back when component costs were high.

But since apple has developed such a blind following over the years, why lower prices? BRILLIANT!


Economics 101? Ok let me ask you this:

Can you be going into an apple store, and whip out your credit card and buy...lets say a $6000 laptop and rationalize to yourself "oh according to the law of economics, the demand of this product methodically follows its extremely high cost. so in accordance to the law of supply and demand, I am going to shamelessly ignore personal judgement on my behalf and shell out money from my son's college tuition account...he's a bum anyways"


:confused:


the world's gone crazy man.

That funny, cause I can walk into Apple and buy a Macbook for $1049 (CAD). Or I could buy a Blackbook for $1459, or I could buy an entry level MBP for $1899, or I could buy a midlevel MBP for $2499, or I could buy an 24" iMac for $1799. You're right, no choice there!

You obviously haven't been following Apple for very long, because they have lowered prices. Just because they don't offer a $600 piece of junk laptop loaded with bloatware and covered with every possible sticker you could imagine, doesn't mean they aren't competitive.

You seriously need to get an education my friend.

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 01:57 PM
Hahaha. Whether or not a certain type of monopoly is illegal (and there are both), yourr definition of a monopoly is just flat out wrong.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I can legally run OS X on non-Apple platforms.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 01:58 PM
That funny, cause I can walk into Apple and buy a Macbook for $1049 (CAD). Or I could buy a Blackbook for $1459, or I could buy an entry level MBP for $1899, or I could buy a midlevel MBP for $2499, or I could buy an 24" iMac for $1799. You're right, no choice there!

You obviously haven't seen following Apple for very long, because they have lowered prices. Just because they don't offer a $600 piece of junk laptop loaded with bloatware and covered with every possible sticker you could imagine, doesn't mean they aren't competitive.

You seriously need to get an education my friend.

You better not tell him that PC manufacturers get a kickback from software developers to include a "trial version" to make money. That might blow his mind.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 01:59 PM
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I can legally run OS X on non-Apple platforms.

And I'm waiting for you to read an Econ 101 book.

How you can run OSX on a non apple machine has NOTHING TO DO with a monopoly. :rolleyes:

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 02:01 PM
How you can run OSX on a non apple machine has NOTHING TO DO with a monopoly.

So basically, the only way to run Apple's operating system is to run it on Apple hardware only available through Apple?

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 02:03 PM
So basically, the only way to run Apple's operating system is to run it on Apple hardware only available through Apple?

Yes. Absolutely. And you're defining that as a monopoly. And maybe in Parker Brothers world, that's a monopoly. But when adults get together to discuss economics or business, this is not a monopoly. Run along.

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 02:04 PM
Yes. Absolutely.

Point, set, match.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 02:05 PM
Point, set, match.

Hahahah! I love the selecting quoting. If you think your argument was correct... wow. God bless. Going through life ignorant must be awesome.

Pssst... everyone else is just laughing at you.

heatmiser
Mar 16, 2008, 02:10 PM
But the Thinkpads do not offer the high quality LED screens that Apple is using. Apple uses innovative cutting edge technologies.

You're right there. As much as I like the customizability of Thinkpad screens, they don't seem to use the best ones when it comes to things like brightness, contrast, and angle viewing. I'm not in a hurry for LEDs, but if those improve the screen quality, I'd like to see them in Thinkpads.

GimmeSlack12
Mar 16, 2008, 02:17 PM
Nope--you're interpreting "monopoly" as "illegal" which leads you to defend Apple in lockstep fanboy fashion.

Apple is not a monopoly because consumers have a choice. With MS and the IE debacle people had no choice, you had to have IE installed for Windows to work. Its quite simple really.

Apogee
Mar 16, 2008, 02:24 PM
You're right there. As much as I like the customizability of Thinkpad screens, they don't seem to use the best ones when it comes to things like brightness, contrast, and angle viewing. I'm not in a hurry for LEDs, but if those improve the screen quality, I'd like to see them in Thinkpads.

The Thinkpad does look quite cheap... Hmm, and I like Thinkpads, but the things that the MBP offers, like 512MB graphics, backlit keyboards, ExpressCard slot, FW 800, Multitouch trackpad: all these costs money too. Then there is the fantastic software, and the "it just works" factor.

I'd say the Macbook Pro's keyboard is about as good as the Thinkpad's, though if they switch to that ridiculous "chicklet" keyboard that might be the end of that.

shawmanus
Mar 16, 2008, 03:51 PM
there are couple of silly things spoken always abt windows laptop. One its infested with virus and spyware/adware that it always crashes. I have bought 4 different windows laptops in last 8 yrs and I have not faced any issue. I just ensure I have firewall/virus/spyware software installed and every one of them is a freeware.

Other thing is that windows laptop is made up of cheap components(hyundai like) while macbook has lexus like components. That is another ********. Most of the components in the market are commoditized. We have intel proc/chipset/seagate/hitachi/corsair etc. Check review

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?article=T61andR61&newsID=3685

Most important is Thinkpad operates significantly cooler than macbook pro. I have seen all the generations of macbook/pro and every one of them gets too hot.

But mac looks cool plus osx is awesome. But apple need to either spec up macbook(more customizable options) or reduce price on macbook pro.

macenforcer
Mar 16, 2008, 03:51 PM
Hahahah! I love the selecting quoting. If you think your argument was correct... wow. God bless. Going through life ignorant must be awesome.

Pssst... everyone else is just laughing at you.

Nope, we are laughing at you.

latestmonkey
Mar 16, 2008, 04:02 PM
Nope, we are laughing at you.

I'm sure you are. But that's ok. The majority of people here understand you guys have no leg to stand on.

Oh well, I really am done in this thread. There's no point in wasting more of my time than I already have dealing with people who refuse to understand how business works. Good luck with your campaign against Apple. Good luck with your Thinkpad too. Hope it brings you many years of happiness.

http://elouai.com/images/yahoo/10.gif

macenforcer
Mar 16, 2008, 04:03 PM
Oh well, I really am done in this thread.

You can say that again. :p

Apogee
Mar 16, 2008, 04:08 PM
there are couple of silly things spoken always abt windows laptop. One its infested with virus and spyware/adware that it always crashes. I have bought 4 different windows laptops in last 8 yrs and I have not faced any issue. I just ensure I have firewall/virus/spyware software installed and every one of them is a freeware.

Other thing is that windows laptop is made up of cheap components(hyundai like) while macbook has lexus like components. That is another ********. Most of the components in the market are commoditized. We have intel proc/chipset/seagate/hitachi/corsair etc. Check review

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?article=T61andR61&newsID=3685

Most important is Thinkpad operates significantly cooler than macbook pro. I have seen all the generations of macbook/pro and every one of them gets too hot.

But mac looks cool plus osx is awesome. But apple need to either spec up macbook(more customizable options) or reduce price on macbook pro.

The trouble with your line of reasoning is you are assuming that a computer is solely comprised of its hardware components. That's not the case, especially with Apple. With their small market share, it is amazing how they can even produce an OS as good as OS X. That is why they need to charge more for their computers to recoup their R&D costs.

Consider Windows Vista. Why is it you have to pay HUNDREDS more just for Windows Vista Ultimate to set a tag in its registry somewhere to "magically" enable a few options? It makes no sense. The binaries are exactly the same. When you purchase the upgrade you do not get new files downloaded into your computer. What exactly are you paying for?

Same applies with Macs.

shawmanus
Mar 16, 2008, 04:25 PM
The trouble with your line of reasoning is you are assuming that a computer is solely comprised of its hardware components. That's not the case, especially with Apple. With their small market share, it is amazing how they can even produce an OS as good as OS X. That is why they need to charge more for their computers to recoup their R&D costs.

Consider Windows Vista. Why is it you have to pay HUNDREDS more just for Windows Vista Ultimate to set a tag in its registry somewhere to "magically" enable a few options? It makes no sense. The binaries are exactly the same. When you purchase the upgrade you do not get new files downloaded into your computer. What exactly are you paying for?

Same applies with Macs.

I agree apple needs a bigger premium than windows side bcos of smaller market. but only thing is that while windows notebook have dropped in price as component prices came down(RAM/HDD/Proc and just abt everything), Apple has not passed down the same benifits.

Grimace
Mar 16, 2008, 04:30 PM
Who friggin' cares? Apple is out to make money, it is a business. Apple charges more for hardware because people will pay a higher price for XYZ.

That doesn't make Apple greedy, it makes the company profitable and stable. Your beef is with the price, not the company. If you were better off financially, you probably wouldn't be making such a campaign for Lenovo.

Apogee
Mar 16, 2008, 04:38 PM
I agree apple needs a bigger premium than windows side bcos of smaller market. but only thing is that while windows notebook have dropped in price as component prices came down(RAM/HDD/Proc and just abt everything), Apple has not passed down the same benifits.

With every update Apple is giving us more and more. With the last update we have gotten a .1ghz increase in speed, a whooping 90GB increase in hard drive space, and the multitouch trackpad.

I still think Macs are very competitively priced, if you spec out a Dell to have similar specs with a Mac you will find that the pricing differences are very small.

For the laptops I still think the integration is worth it, so tired of Windows PCs which starts like 4-5 icons in your taskbar just for wireless and trackpad controls. The Thinkpad however does look very attractive at that price though.

Apogee
Mar 16, 2008, 04:52 PM
Don't you all hate the fact that you only have ONE choice in a laptop computer? I mean steve is like here you go this is all you are getting, cost us $400 to make but still going to charge $2500 hahaha. meanwhile Lenovo and thousands of other companies are staying competitive and giving all kids of options, better hardware and massive discounts. Sorry, tired of having steves foot up my butt. He can keep his 5yr old notebook. He won't be getting a single dollar from me until he can make an acceptible laptop.


I see a strawman argument when I see it. Please show me how you can build a Macbook PRO for $400.

Meanwhile I will keep enjoying my built in spellchecker :)

cthomet
Mar 16, 2008, 04:52 PM
Who friggin' cares? Apple is out to make money, it is a business. Apple charges more for hardware because people will pay a higher price for XYZ.

That doesn't make Apple greedy, it makes the company profitable and stable. Your beef is with the price, not the company. If you were better off financially, you probably wouldn't be making such a campaign for Lenovo.

agreed. and now im done with this thread as well

shawmanus
Mar 16, 2008, 04:54 PM
With every update Apple is giving us more and more. With the last update we have gotten a .1ghz increase in speed, a whooping 90GB increase in hard drive space, and the multitouch trackpad.

I still think Macs are very competitively priced, if you spec out a Dell to have similar specs with a Mac you will find that the pricing differences are very small.

For the laptops I still think the integration is worth it, so tired of Windows PCs which starts like 4-5 icons in your taskbar just for wireless and trackpad controls. The Thinkpad however does look very attractive at that price though.

that is not a upgrade by apple. that is bcos component price has gone down. eary 2006 when apple was charging 2.5K for 2ghz core duo, comparative windows laptop costed > 2K. at that time high end laptops had 120GB HDD. Now we are able to buy thinkpad with 2.5ghz core 2 duo < $1000(with 250GB HDD). There is a deal for HP with 2.5ghz and 2GB fully loaded for $900. But apple high end still costs $2500.

rychencop
Mar 16, 2008, 04:55 PM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

Sounds like a very nice laptop and I'm sure you'll be very happy with it. Nothing wrong with my MBP though and OS X is the best!!

alphaod
Mar 16, 2008, 07:08 PM
$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

I have to question is how many discounts did you apply to this?

Also Thinkpads are good hardware, but I can't stand constant Windows usage anymore!

Also when did Thinkpads NOT come in black?

nufanec
Mar 16, 2008, 07:42 PM
Can someone remind me why the comparisons are being made to the Macbook Pro? Aside from the .1GHz faster processor it is clear that the 2.4GHz Macbook is a more direct competitor for this lenovo. It uses integrated graphics, like the Macbook and it has a smaller screen (although admittedly slightly larger than the Macbook). So enough of comparing this $1200 to the $2500 Macbook Pro - compare it to the $1400 Macbook (White with 250Gb hard disk BTO).

shawmanus
Mar 16, 2008, 08:36 PM
Can someone remind me why the comparisons are being made to the Macbook Pro? Aside from the .1GHz faster processor it is clear that the 2.4GHz Macbook is a more direct competitor for this lenovo. It uses integrated graphics, like the Macbook and it has a smaller screen (although admittedly slightly larger than the Macbook). So enough of comparing this $1200 to the $2500 Macbook Pro - compare it to the $1400 Macbook (White with 250Gb hard disk BTO).

Thinkpads( T and R) can be configured with NVDIA quadro 140M (with 128MB RAM) for 14" while T61P can be configured with Nvidia Quadro 570M(with 256MB Graphics card). It has customizable option for everything(except different GFX cards which is either x3100 or one of the above cards). Plus the machine like macbook pro is targeted at professionals and hence workstation graphics card,Disk Encryption, Option of Non wide screen etc.

burningrave101
Mar 16, 2008, 09:12 PM
Can someone remind me why the comparisons are being made to the Macbook Pro? Aside from the .1GHz faster processor it is clear that the 2.4GHz Macbook is a more direct competitor for this lenovo. It uses integrated graphics, like the Macbook and it has a smaller screen (although admittedly slightly larger than the Macbook). So enough of comparing this $1200 to the $2500 Macbook Pro - compare it to the $1400 Macbook (White with 250Gb hard disk BTO).

A MacBook is a consumer level laptop for an average user. It's not a business class laptop like a ThinkPad or even a MacBook Pro. Lenovo ThinkPad's, Dell Latitudes, HP business class notebooks, ect are geared towards business professionals, not Susie Cue with her pink MacBook lol. Business class laptops also generally come with better support and longer warranties. 3 year warranties are standard for the Dell and HP business laptops. Lenovo is 1 year standard but it doesn't cost too much to upgrade to 3 years. Apple could learn a thing or two on this front and stop charging so much for their Apple Care support.

macenforcer
Mar 17, 2008, 12:36 AM
A MacBook is a consumer level laptop for an average user. It's not a business class laptop like a ThinkPad or even a MacBook Pro. Lenovo ThinkPad's, Dell Latitudes, HP business class notebooks, ect are geared towards business professionals, not Susie Cue with her pink MacBook lol. Business class laptops also generally come with better support and longer warranties. 3 year warranties are standard for the Dell and HP business laptops. Lenovo is 1 year standard but it doesn't cost too much to upgrade to 3 years. Apple could learn a thing or two on this front and stop charging so much for their Apple Care support.

Yeah, that's another thing. $350 for an extra 2yrs support? Don't think so apple.

sealab2021
Mar 17, 2008, 12:55 AM
One thing about apple that impresses me is the little extra things they put in their stuff (hardware and software) that most people don't even think about.

For instance, apple puts motion sensors in their laptops to help protect you from damaging your harddrive.

Apple computers are still the only computer I've seen that have a cammera in every computer they make (cept mac mini)(not saying there aren't other computers that I haven't seen). This is really cool because video conferencying doesn't work unless both people have a camera (and have it set up, which is a pretty hard thing for some people)

Also, they were smart enough to stop the feedback loop that hapens between your speakers and the active mic when you are talking to someone. Most other laptops suck at this, and pretty much defeat the purpose of audio or video conferencing. Again, with macs, they work period.

Another cool thing about them is that all macs are realitively quiet and with longer battery life. You have to do a lot of homework with most other laptops. You can't assume this stuff, but with Mac you can.

A huge thing you are paying for with Mac hardware is the apple geniuses at every apple store. Think about it, "when do they make their money?" Whether you use them or not, the cost of their salary is built into your mac.

Apple stuff s more expensive, but its also a better way to go for the average consumer. And I've just recently swthed. I remember how mad I was when apple made such a big deal about the orginal mighty mouse, "First two button apple mouse". Remember how big of a deal i was? I was huge. I'ts like apple thought they invented the two button mouse or something. They do this everytime. WHen blu-ray finally comes to apple products, apple will try to pretend that they "invented" blu-ray or something. Just watch, that's the way Steve is. I greedy irogant bastard, who prides himself about being the best, and brags about never giving a cent to charity Google his bio, its true. He is not a good man. But he's really helped lead the way to having some well thought out computers. To that I say bravo.

GRN99EX
Mar 17, 2008, 01:51 AM
Yeah, that's another thing. $350 for an extra 2yrs support? Don't think so apple.

The difference is that Apple doesn't outsource their support. That is a major factor when computing what to charge a user to support hardware that is 2+ years old. Look at Dell! Back in 2003, they decoded to offshore their entire commercial support operation to India. (not that offshoring is a bad thing at all, but you have to take in to account the expectations of the customer)

They were basically told by some of their biggest customers (Fortune 100 companies), that they would take their hardware business elsewhere if they had to deal with an hour long scripted phone call before the customer could even get through to someone who could actually help them.

When I started with my company, they gave me a brand new 2.2GHZ thinkpad with 3GB of RAM. I gave it back, and took a two year old MBP. Even though XP may not innitially use more RAM than OS X, it doesn't take long to max out a thinkpad. My 2GB CD MBP ran better than the brand new thinkpad, and my new 2.5GHz 4GB Ram Penryn screams!

You try running a thinkpad with 4 GB of RAM, and XP (with outlook and a browser open) and VMWare, running a VM that includes an entire application stack (like TIBCO), and I will promise you that a MBP with 4 GB of RAM, Entourage, VMWare Fusion, Firefox, and the same VM, will run better and faster. I do it every day!

You may not think your fans are on, but I will hazard to guess that they are running, just at a low speed. all computers get hot, so your "my fans have never once come on" comment is at best a HUGE pile of crap.

Thinkpads were the top of the line when IBM had some kind of control over the build quality. They have really gone downhill since lenovo took over.

As for Apple being greedy, every software/hardware company out there has to keep the best interests of the company in mind. I don't recall ever having the option to get a remote with any of the 5+ thinkpads I have had over the past 10 years. For someone like me, who gives software demonstrations on a daily basis, a remote is well worth the $19 cost Apple charges.

I will climb down off my soapbox, but just to level set here, Lenovo is one of my company's biggest clients. We provide them with the QA testing tool that they use to test their own Supply chain management software.

Apogee
Mar 17, 2008, 02:59 AM
Thinkpads were the top of the line when IBM had some kind of control over the build quality. They have really gone downhill since lenovo took over.


How bad are they nowadays?

Thinkpads are the only PC laptops that I would consider buying.

LeMacK
Mar 17, 2008, 04:17 AM
here's how i see it:

PC = honda
Mac = BMW

sure, your thinkpad and my MBP are both laptops (just like your honda and my BMW are both cars) but the end user experience is VERY different. you get what you pay for.

dont mean to offend anyone, just my two cents.

willcodejavafor
Mar 17, 2008, 04:36 AM
Mods ought to lock nonsense threads

johnnyjibbs
Mar 17, 2008, 05:09 AM
That machine has great specs. But after my 12" PB and new MBP 15" Penryn, I could never go back. I love using these machines and wish I could use them for work (instead of Windows).

My new 15" MBP is very quiet and I've never yet had the fans ramp up (even when doing iMovie and iDVD). Neither would I say it runs hot? :confused:

Apogee
Mar 17, 2008, 06:46 AM
Mods ought to lock nonsense threads

The OP has a point. When you can buy a Santa Rosa laptop for less than a Mac Mini something is not right.

dingster1
Mar 17, 2008, 06:55 AM
This thread is like the Energizer Bunny....

Joko
Mar 17, 2008, 08:26 AM
Wow this thread is um..well..yes.

Apple provide a superior style, image, and software.
You pay for a better brand, everyone knows this. You really don't have to buy it, no one's forcing you. Everyone realizes it's more expensive, but they're prepared to buy it, so what, who cares.

It seems the OP is defending and trying his hardest to justify his purchase. Buyers remorse?

Why did you start this thread if you're so happy with your PC laptop in the first place? I find it an absurd concept to come onto MR and rave about your PC specs.

You really do sound like you're trying to justify your purchase.

P.S Mac OS is copyrighted, it cannot be a monopoly. A single telephonic company would be a monopoly.

andiwm2003
Mar 17, 2008, 08:49 AM
wow, i bought a lenovo notebook a year ago. these ones are far better and the prices are awsome. as some stated (in this sadly deteriorating thread) the screens are not as good as apples (my GF has a t61 and the screen is worse than my 4 year old PB) and the sound is weak. but you pay half the price of a MBP. i would be willing to make that compromise because for me it's all good enough.

what tempts me on the lenovo: price, docking station, robustness, features like battery/HD/DVD drive bay

what will likely keep me with apple: OS X

if microsoft ever gets their act together and makes a halfway good OS I see hard times for apple coming.

UndertheRadar
Mar 17, 2008, 09:17 AM
Wow. This monkey dude has a huge chip on his shoulder. Coming from a long history on the mac side(I'd say 15 years) I can tell you that the OP has a legit opinion. If you don't stand up and say something, nothing ever changes.:)

GAS
Mar 17, 2008, 09:19 AM
Wow. This monkey dude has a huge chip on his shoulder. Coming from a long history on the mac side(I'd say 15 years) I can tell you that the OP has a legit opinion. If you don't stand up and say something, nothing ever changes.:)

I doubt 1 person is going to change Apple's mind tbh. :)

markrivers
Mar 17, 2008, 09:29 AM
i understand macenforcer's take on the whole apple inc issue.
the main problem is..
1. we, the consumers are not united at all.

the recent removal of the apple remote form the penryn MBPs divided us already, many forum members believe it's just right since nobody uses them anyway or everyone has 4-5 spare at home gathering dust..
the consumers themselves are rationalizing the company's move!:mad:
without even considering the fact that the cost to build the current MBP is less than the previous generation.

similar things happened to the ipods, when every new generation loses the docks etc

and all of us should agree on one thing..
ALL companies ( apple included) have " business first, consumers second" mentality, that's how they profit, that's how they survive!

thank you!
my fellow americans! i need your support this november:D

Joko
Mar 17, 2008, 09:38 AM
The operating system is enough reason to fork over the cash, the amount of time and money it has saved me is invaluable. In the long run, you save money with Mac OS.

Not to mention less stress related illnesses associated with using windows therefor - health benefits!

heatmiser
Mar 17, 2008, 10:19 AM
the recent removal of the apple remote form the penryn MBPs divided us already, many forum members believe it's just right since nobody uses them anyway or everyone has 4-5 spare at home gathering dust..
the consumers themselves are rationalizing the company's move!:mad:
without even considering the fact that the cost to build the current MBP is less than the previous generation.

The forum is full of appeasers; you've got people here who still claim the Magsafes aren't defective. Whenever Apple cheapens out, there will always be people willing to fall on the sword and defend a multinational corporation they attached their self-identities to. Some folks will forever belong to the "Apple, right or wrong" club--even if it were revealed each $2000 MBP cost 1/10th of that amount to mass produce. Best to take such folks with a grain of salt.

Digital Skunk
Mar 17, 2008, 10:28 AM
The forum is full of appeasers; you've got people here who still claim the Magsafes aren't defective. Whenever Apple cheapens out, there will always be people willing to fall on the sword and defend a multinational corporation they attached their self-identities to. Some folks will forever belong to the "Apple, right or wrong" club--even if it were revealed each $2000 MBP cost 1/10th of that amount to mass produce. Best to take such folks with a grain of salt.

Amen. What's worse are those that can't get past their own ideals of a great computer... i.e. don't bash the machine I use because it's perfect.... kind of people. If you find fault with one of Apple's products it obviously must be your own fault because I this and I that.

Then there are those that want to nit pick at the smallest details of the Mac like they are real issues.... don't get me wrong, nothing said here fits that motif, but when people complain about there being no SD card reader or more USB ports it pisses me off. How about there is real desktop replacement laptop, the 17" is just a larger 15". Where's my killer headless Mac besides the Mac Pro? Why is the iPhone such a waste of time?

Apple's starting to fail both at industrial design and high end features IMHO, and i hope people start realizing that the lack of different OS colors and USB ports are the least of Apple's problems with their machines.

p.s. And yes... let's start with the faulty MagSafe adaptor.

djellison
Mar 17, 2008, 10:39 AM
Mac is way more stable, there can be no arguing about that,

Sorry - that's Apple propoganda. I use OSX and XP regularly, on a day to day basis - both of them. Neither is more stable than the other.

Doug

jag0009
Mar 17, 2008, 10:40 AM
The forum is full of appeasers; you've got people here who still claim the Magsafes aren't defective. Whenever Apple cheapens out, there will always be people willing to fall on the sword and defend a multinational corporation they attached their self-identities to. Some folks will forever belong to the "Apple, right or wrong" club--even if it were revealed each $2000 MBP cost 1/10th of that amount to mass produce. Best to take such folks with a grain of salt.

Then why bother reading this forum or even visiting this website?

heatmiser
Mar 17, 2008, 10:44 AM
Amen. What's worse are those that can't get past their own ideals of a great computer... i.e. don't bash the machine I use because it's perfect.... kind of people. If you find fault with one of Apple's products it obviously must be your own fault because I this and I that.

Then there are those that want to nit pick at the smallest details of the Mac like they are real issues.... don't get me wrong, nothing said here fits that motif, but when people complain about there being no SD card reader or more USB ports it pisses me off. How about there is real desktop replacement laptop, the 17" is just a larger 15". Where's my killer headless Mac besides the Mac Pro? Why is the iPhone such a waste of time?

Apple's starting to fail both at industrial design and high end features IMHO, and i hope people start realizing that the lack of different OS colors and USB ports are the least of Apple's problems with their machines.

p.s. And yes... let's start with the faulty MagSafe adaptor.

Agreed on all counts.

Then why bother reading this forum or even visiting this website?

Because there are lots of good folk here who don't blindly defend Apple at every opportunity. The ones who don't equate themselves with Apple products are the ones who offer the best advice.

jag0009
Mar 17, 2008, 10:46 AM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

Fan keep on spinning while running MS windows or OSX? I use Photoshop a lot and play games on OSX, the fan doesn't turn on that often...

"No 2 button trackpad" -> That is how Apple has been since Day 1!

I wanted a Thinkpad before until IBM disappeared and turned into Lenovo Thinkpad....

jag0009
Mar 17, 2008, 10:52 AM
Because there are lots of good folk here who don't blindly defend Apple at every opportunity. The ones who don't equate themselves with Apple products are the ones who offer the best advice.

Well the thing which annoys me is when people expect MS Windows to work perfectly on a mac (with bootcamp)--> Perfectly meaning perfect power saving features, perfect fan control, perfect video drivers etc etc. Okay, they want to get the most out of their $$$....

If the applications that one uses are all windows based, then why bother getting a Mac?

jag0009
Mar 17, 2008, 10:55 AM
there are couple of silly things spoken always abt windows laptop. One its infested with virus and spyware/adware that it always crashes. I have bought 4 different windows laptops in last 8 yrs and I have not faced any issue. I just ensure I have firewall/virus/spyware software installed and every one of them is a freeware.

Other thing is that windows laptop is made up of cheap components(hyundai like) while macbook has lexus like components. That is another ********. Most of the components in the market are commoditized. We have intel proc/chipset/seagate/hitachi/corsair etc. Check review

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?article=T61andR61&newsID=3685

Most important is Thinkpad operates significantly cooler than macbook pro. I have seen all the generations of macbook/pro and every one of them gets too hot.

But mac looks cool plus osx is awesome. But apple need to either spec up macbook(more customizable options) or reduce price on macbook pro.

Please elaborate on "while macbook has lexus like components"... You mean the case and the CPU? I read from somewhere that the macbook (pro?) is made by Asus...

Joko
Mar 17, 2008, 11:17 AM
Why is this thread soooo long ?!?!

Agree to disagree!!

markrivers
Mar 17, 2008, 01:02 PM
Why is this thread soooo long ?!?!

Agree to disagree!!

because it's bringing out the sentiments of many " apple machine" owners..
and the "disgareement" of the same number.

darfel
Mar 17, 2008, 02:04 PM
Supply and demand.

UndertheRadar
Mar 17, 2008, 02:09 PM
I doubt 1 person is going to change Apple's mind tbh. :)

Not just one baby:)
That whole line about change was for effect but just look at all these unhappy people.
I for one am still waiting for a good video card for my mac pro...(this is not an attempt to thread jack):)

alphaod
Mar 17, 2008, 02:56 PM
If people keep buying Apples, they aren't going to change.

Same for Thinkpads. They stay back and old-looking because it works.

GAS
Mar 17, 2008, 03:43 PM
This thread is never going to end. Some people will just never agree.

If you want to buy a mac, great.
If you want to buy a thinkpad, great, but what's the point in going to a mac forum to tell everyone what they already know?

We already know macs are more expensive, we already know that dell and leveno are cheaper, but we bought a mac anyway. So how is this thread going to affect us? The only thing this thread does is cause arguments.

darfel
Mar 17, 2008, 04:09 PM
This thread is never going to end. Some people will just never agree.

If you want to buy a mac, great.
If you want to buy a thinkpad, great, but what's the point in going to a mac forum to tell everyone what they already know?

We already know macs are more expensive, we already know that dell and leveno are cheaper, but we bought a mac anyway. So how is this thread going to affect us? The only thing this thread does is cause arguments.

Well said, if you ever make it to Napa, CA, allow me to buy you a bottle of wine/beer!

Apogee
Mar 17, 2008, 04:42 PM
Please elaborate on "while macbook has lexus like components"... You mean the case and the CPU? I read from somewhere that the macbook (pro?) is made by Asus...

Apple uses components from better manufacturers. For instance cheap laptops might come with wireless controllers from Broadcom while Apple may use Intel ones.

gusto5
Mar 17, 2008, 06:00 PM
Maybe by the 8th page of posting, someone could kindly provide some benchmarks of the two systems processing the same task! =D

I have the odd feeling the original post was trying to justify the price difference by a hardware assessment, not OS stability and not anesthetics . So telling him one of those things makes the macbook pro "better" is contrary to what is being discussed.

So here's my shot at it, to give a better comparison between the two (because saying "i dont need dedicated graphics" equates to "i dont need a macbook pro level of apple" anyway). Ill be using the of a T61P built as close to the macbook pro as possible.

CPU:
T61P: Intel Core 2 Duo processor T9300 (2.5GHz 800MHz 6MBL2Cache)
MBP: Intel Core 2 Duo processor T9300 (2.5GHz 800MHz 6MBL2Cache)
Verdict: The Same (the same thing, self-explanatory)

Memory:
T61P: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
MBP: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)

Hard Drive:
T61P: 250GB Serial ATA Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm
MBP: 250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)
Display:
T61P: 15.4 WSXGA+ TFT (Max. Resolution 1680x1050)
MBP: 15.4 WSXGA LED (Max. Resolution 1440x900)
Verdict: T61P (while the Macbook Pro does have a newer, LED-style display, since 1440x900 WSXGA laptops fit in 14.1" laptops, that is not enough to justify the loss of resolution. Of course, resolution is once again, personal preference, but I am under the assumption you want the highest level of resolution. If you cant read 1690x1050 at 15.4", that's your problem, not the computer's)

System Graphics:
T61P: NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (256MB DDR3) Nvidia Specifications Chart (http://www.nvidia.com/page/quadrofx_go.html)
MBP: NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT (512MB DDR3) Nvidia Specifications Chart (http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8600M_techspecs.html)
Verdict: MBP (for the moment) (while the specification links are general specifications, as graphics cards will vary from model to model, unless someone can provide me with information such as Memory bandwidth information, or Max resolution output, I can only award this to the macbook pro with the higher allocation of dedicated memory)

Optical Device
T61P: DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim
MBP: 8x Double-layer SuperDrive
Verdict: The Same (Both 8X dual layer dvd writers which I could not find sufficient problems in for either product via google)

Wireless Card
T61P: Intel Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN (802.11n)
MBP: Airport Extreme (802.11n)
Verdict: The Same (different manufacturers, although I could not find any reason why one network card outperformed the other, and there are too many variables to determine this, so they are again, at a tie)

Bluetooth
T61P: Integrated Bluetooth PAN
MBP: Integrated Bluetooth
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)

Touchpad
T61P: Standard Ultranav single-point contact touchpad + trackpad
MBP: Multitouch touchpad
Verdict: MBP (one of the not so price-significant advantages of the MBP, though is a highlight hardware-wise nonetheless)

Aux. Ports
T61P: 3USB, 1Firewire 400, 1 Modem, 1 Ethernet, 1 PCMCIA/Express slot
MBP: 2USB, 1Firewire 400, 1 Firewire 800, 1 Ethernet, 1 Express slot
Verdict: The Same (Firewire 800? PCMCIA? 1 more USB? justifies nothing, really)

Weight
T61P: 5.9lbs (via google searches)
MBP: 5.4lbs (via apple official specifications)
Verdict: MBP (no one wants the heavier laptop, right? unless you're preparing for an expected robbery and will be smashing them with it)

Actual Prices
T61P: $1479.75
MBP: $2,499.00

Price Difference: 1019.25 (for the T61P)
So needless to say, in terms of Hardware you would be saving $1019.25 USD. Which OS to use? Which one is Anesthetically more appealing? That's a preference call. Apples or Oranges much? =)

GRN99EX
Mar 17, 2008, 09:59 PM
Actual Prices
T61P: $1479.75
MBP: $2,499.00

Price Difference: 1019.25 (for the T61P)
So needless to say, in terms of Hardware you would be saving $1019.25 USD. Which OS to use? Which one is Anesthetically more appealing? That's a preference call. Apples or Oranges much? =)

You are listing the price difference of over a grand, but are leaving out things that will obviously narrow the gap.

For instance, a 9 cell thinkpad battery that will last almost as long as the standard battery in a MBP. Cost via lenovo.com is $179.00 on sale for $120. Now the price difference is only $900. You also made you comparison of the graphics cards based on resolution. What is the difference in cost of a 256MB laptop video card and a 512MB laptop video card?

I realize that it may seem like I am nickel and dime-ing it down, but if you are going to show a cost comparison like that, then you have to be willing to do a true apples-to-apples comparison.

Lastly, it doesn't exactly take a degree in economics to figure out where the rest of the price difference comes from... VOLUME!!! I would bet my next paycheck on the fact that Lenovo crushes apple in the number of units sold category. That alone allows them to reduce their profit margin per machine, because they more than make up for it with the number of machines sold.

If you want to see the price of you MB and MBP come down, start converting everyone you know. Nothing else is going to work. Apple has investors who expect a certain profit margin and rate of growth every year. They aren't going to ruin themselves financially because you are being pissy about paying $19 for a remote.

that's my $.02.

gcmexico
Mar 17, 2008, 11:13 PM
Agreed on all counts.



Because there are lots of good folk here who don't blindly defend Apple at every opportunity. The ones who don't equate themselves with Apple products are the ones who offer the best advice.
**
This is by far the dumbest quote I have ever read!!! LOL Yeah I can give a great opinion on Porsche, or Yacht because I don't own one or equate myself with one...are u kidding me????!! HA HA HA HA

This is a ridiculous thread

Those who cry can't afford to buy!

TravisReynolds
Mar 17, 2008, 11:23 PM
Believe me, I've switched to PC too after being a mac user for a long time. AFter about a year I came back to the mac, I just can't leave it

you'll be back i bet =]

TimeWaster101
Mar 17, 2008, 11:56 PM
Lastly, it doesn't exactly take a degree in economics to figure out where the rest of the price difference comes from... VOLUME!!! I would bet my next paycheck on the fact that Lenovo crushes apple in the number of units sold category. That alone allows them to reduce their profit margin per machine, because they more than make up for it with the number of machines sold.

If you want to see the price of you MB and MBP come down, start converting everyone you know. Nothing else is going to work. Apple has investors who expect a certain profit margin and rate of growth every year. They aren't going to ruin themselves financially because you are being pissy about paying $19 for a remote.

that's my $.02.

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A BRAIN!!!!!!!!! YES OF COURSE! APPLE MUST CHARGE MORE BECAUSE THEY SELL LESS! HELLO! DUH! THANK YOU GRN99EX BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR THIS. YOU MAY BE ONE OF THE ONLY ONES HERE WITH A BRAIN. :eek:

GRN99EX
Mar 18, 2008, 12:46 AM
FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A BRAIN!!!!!!!!! YES OF COURSE! APPLE MUST CHARGE MORE BECAUSE THEY SELL LESS! HELLO! DUH! THANK YOU GRN99EX BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR THIS. YOU MAY BE ONE OF THE ONLY ONES HERE WITH A BRAIN. :eek:

I don't know you, and haven't been on this forum long enough to know whether or not you are being sarcastic with your post. Looking at the comparison from the poster I replied to, I realized one more useful tidbit in the volume/profit reasoning. I shouldn't have missed it before, but I have been up for the better part of 20 hours traveling for work.

When you look at the video cards that were posted in the comparison, the one glaring thing that stands out, is the difference in dedicated memory. This is most definitely attributed to the needs of Lenovo's major line of business... Corporate America! Any company that needs to order tons of machines will gladly sacrifice resolution and VRAM, for more HD space and RAM. Even at that, I regulary have customers who have to upgrade the RAM in the "spec machines" they buy.

Apple's major line of business is the general consumer. If you don't believe me, go price out a Solaris Sunfire series machine, and you will find that you can get at least 2 screaming Solaris machines for the price of a completely maxed out Mac Pro. I have only been using a mac for about 4 months, and have worked on every type of machine out there, from an OS/390 MF, OpenVMS Alpha/VAX, OS/2, AS/400, all the way down to my past thinkpads, and my current MAC. Regardless of how much someone wants to cry foul, and get their panties in a bunch, the bottom line is that the company's bottom line is thier top priority. When they get away from that, and things don't go as planned, REALLY bad things happen.

Bear Stearns anyone?

youradhere4222
Mar 18, 2008, 12:58 AM
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I can legally run OS X on non-Apple platforms.

Dude, it's an operating system.

In the end, they're not Mac OS X or Windows Vista, it's an operating system. Seriously, there are so many logical fallacies in your arguments.

Look at it this way, is Starbucks a monopoly because they sell Starbucks coffee? Is HP a monopoly because they're the only distributor of HP laptops?

Nope.

katejones
Mar 18, 2008, 01:42 AM
windows has updated and needs restart, restart now or in 5 minutes?

vansouza
Mar 18, 2008, 01:50 AM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

How are you enjoying OS X; oh wait you aren't.

macenforcer
Mar 18, 2008, 01:35 PM
Some of these arguments are just hilarious. The bottom line is apple is charging twice as much for its hardware. Its a ripoff. They are no longer inovative. They have not done anything cool or useful in yrs. Where is the verizon or att wan? Where is the blu-ray (yes lenovo offers bluray on R series), where is dock port? No office or business person will EVER buy a mac because of this problem alone. You appeasers can blah blah all you want about supply and demand but the reason apple sells less than lenovo is becuase there are smart consumers out there and they are not buying apple. Apple needs a realty check, then they will start to move forward.

makasin
Mar 18, 2008, 01:51 PM
I think Apple's computers, like the MacBook Pro, are great systems and reflect the way they design the OS. The reason why they don't have a dock and bluray(which isnt even THAT immediately important, for me at least) is because they beleive in simplicity and elegance. Look at the MBP for example. Its made of all aluminum, on the underside there arent any fans/plastic peices/and dock connections. This is done because Mac users dont really need it. They designed the computer so that you can put in on your bed for example without worrying about it freaking out coz the fan is clogged. Plus, with the advent of USB, I dont really see the point of having a dock connector. How about I just plug in my USB hub that has everything I need at home attached to it? Isnt that like a dock connector? And if I've got an external monitor, Ive got a full-blown DVI port that I can convert to VGA, S-Video or Composite using an adapter, which BTW is much easier to lug around than a huge peice of plastic dock. I believe that Apple designs things for a reason. Docks aren't the most useful things anymore. Sure they were when computers didn't have many connections and the connections that they did have were huge ugly parallel ports and such, but with firewire and usb, I dont see it as a REQUIREMENT.

Plus, what makes you think Apple is targeting the business user anyways?
Its targetting the professional who likes to do things at home and on the go.
I'm an electrical engineering student, and Ive used this computer everywhere I go. I havent seen a single Windows notebook that has 5 hours of battery life without being extremely crippled spec-wise. Maybe things have changed, but I've been a windows fanboy up until last year and had many computers and haven't heard a single report from anyone saying that their battery lasts more than two hours. And why is that? Its not like the hardware is so drastically different. Its just that Apple's OSX is a closed platform, so they can focus on each computer THEY design and are able to squeeze out as much performance and battery life as possible, using either hardware or software schemes. I'd love to see a Dell run for more than 3 hours on a stock (not 12 Cell 50lb extended battery) battery.

saltyzoo
Mar 18, 2008, 01:52 PM
I carry two laptops in my bag every day. One is my MBP and the other is my works T61. I have to take the T61 home every day to be able to VPN to the office to do support when needed.

I have yet to ever consider using the T61 at home except for using VPN to work when forced too. I can't fathom voluntarily doing it.

The MBP is lighter, thinner, faster (damn the specs, reality is reality), and more flexible (unix is much more useful to me than 10 billion windows applications).

Oh, and the dock port? What the heck is the point in that. Am I too lazy to plug 3 whole things in every morning, just so I can have half the apps crash when I wake up the machine when it's not in it's port? Not really.


But, to each his own. Enjoy.

lauph
Mar 18, 2008, 01:59 PM
I carry two laptops in my bag every day. One is my MBP and the other is my works T61. I have to take the T61 home every day to be able to VPN to the office to do support when needed.

Im quite sure MBPs can do VPN...

saltyzoo
Mar 18, 2008, 02:02 PM
Im quite sure MBPs can do VPN...

Of course they can. Unfortunately, I'm also quite sure I'd be fired if I got caught doing it from a non-corporate laptop. Not saying it makes sense, but for security reasons they take it very seriously. Via that VPN I have access to a large database of banking records.

vansouza
Mar 18, 2008, 02:09 PM
Why does Apple have to make them?? Third party players make docks already Apple does not have to be the one who makes something for a solution to exist. If you need a dock you can have one now that it is mentioned here, I think I will order one for my work desk. Thanks..

ssteve
Mar 18, 2008, 02:14 PM
...$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

It sounds like you are happy with your purchase. I want to tell you that I am happy that you are happy. BTW Thanks for letting me know what is available in non-Apple computers.

trip1ex
Mar 18, 2008, 02:43 PM
Maybe by the 8th page of posting, someone could kindly provide some benchmarks of the two systems processing the same task! =D

I have the odd feeling the original post was trying to justify the price difference by a hardware assessment, not OS stability and not anesthetics . So telling him one of those things makes the macbook pro "better" is contrary to what is being discussed.

So here's my shot at it, to give a better comparison between the two (because saying "i dont need dedicated graphics" equates to "i dont need a macbook pro level of apple" anyway). Ill be using the of a T61P built as close to the macbook pro as possible.

CPU:
T61P: Intel Core 2 Duo processor T9300 (2.5GHz 800MHz 6MBL2Cache)
MBP: Intel Core 2 Duo processor T9300 (2.5GHz 800MHz 6MBL2Cache)
Verdict: The Same (the same thing, self-explanatory)

Memory:
T61P: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
MBP: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)

Hard Drive:
T61P: 250GB Serial ATA Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm
MBP: 250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)
Display:
T61P: 15.4 WSXGA+ TFT (Max. Resolution 1680x1050)
MBP: 15.4 WSXGA LED (Max. Resolution 1440x900)
Verdict: T61P (while the Macbook Pro does have a newer, LED-style display, since 1440x900 WSXGA laptops fit in 14.1" laptops, that is not enough to justify the loss of resolution. Of course, resolution is once again, personal preference, but I am under the assumption you want the highest level of resolution. If you cant read 1690x1050 at 15.4", that's your problem, not the computer's)

System Graphics:
T61P: NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (256MB DDR3) Nvidia Specifications Chart (http://www.nvidia.com/page/quadrofx_go.html)
MBP: NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT (512MB DDR3) Nvidia Specifications Chart (http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8600M_techspecs.html)
Verdict: MBP (for the moment) (while the specification links are general specifications, as graphics cards will vary from model to model, unless someone can provide me with information such as Memory bandwidth information, or Max resolution output, I can only award this to the macbook pro with the higher allocation of dedicated memory)

Optical Device
T61P: DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim
MBP: 8x Double-layer SuperDrive
Verdict: The Same (Both 8X dual layer dvd writers which I could not find sufficient problems in for either product via google)

Wireless Card
T61P: Intel Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN (802.11n)
MBP: Airport Extreme (802.11n)
Verdict: The Same (different manufacturers, although I could not find any reason why one network card outperformed the other, and there are too many variables to determine this, so they are again, at a tie)

Bluetooth
T61P: Integrated Bluetooth PAN
MBP: Integrated Bluetooth
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)

Touchpad
T61P: Standard Ultranav single-point contact touchpad + trackpad
MBP: Multitouch touchpad
Verdict: MBP (one of the not so price-significant advantages of the MBP, though is a highlight hardware-wise nonetheless)

Aux. Ports
T61P: 3USB, 1Firewire 400, 1 Modem, 1 Ethernet, 1 PCMCIA/Express slot
MBP: 2USB, 1Firewire 400, 1 Firewire 800, 1 Ethernet, 1 Express slot
Verdict: The Same (Firewire 800? PCMCIA? 1 more USB? justifies nothing, really)

Weight
T61P: 5.9lbs (via google searches)
MBP: 5.4lbs (via apple official specifications)
Verdict: MBP (no one wants the heavier laptop, right? unless you're preparing for an expected robbery and will be smashing them with it)

Actual Prices
T61P: $1479.75
MBP: $2,499.00

Price Difference: 1019.25 (for the T61P)
So needless to say, in terms of Hardware you would be saving $1019.25 USD. Which OS to use? Which one is Anesthetically more appealing? That's a preference call. Apples or Oranges much? =)



Great comparison, but obviously not the best one for Apple. The MBP model above the entry model is a money grab for Apple no doubt. It's much like the black Macbook.

Go down to the entry level MBP and you'll see a much better comparison.

Also there's many things you missed.

The MBP has a slot loading disc player. MUch nicer and more expensive part.

The all-aluminum build of the MBP is much nicer than black plastic and more expensive.

The weight of the Thinkpad is probably more than you stated because, afaik, you don't get exact weights on Lenovo's site only the minimum starting weight.

One reason the MBP has so much power in a small form factor is because it uses Lithium Polymer batteries which are more expensive than what the competition uses which are Lithium ion batteries.

The 570 vid card is based on a 8600GTM as afaik. I don't think it's as nice for gaming or as fast though. (edit: I think one difference is 256-bit memory interface on the 8600, 128-bit on the 570.)

You don't take into account the back-lit keyboard.

I'd be surprised if the MBP didn't have better speakers and a better sound chip also.

The MBP is also built to drive 2 external monitors of the 30" size. Is that true of the Thinkpad?

Firewire 800 is a more expensive feature than an extra USB port. If you need access to external drives for hi-end video work or something like that than you'll want that faster port.

I would also speculate that the MBP monitor is much nicer. And afaik the LED monitors are more expensive and I bet the panel is a nicer one than in the Lenovo. This may not seem important, but it really is if you're doing a cost comparison.

I'm not trying to say MBP's aren't expensive laptops, but there are some more reasons than meets the eye as to why they cost more than a Thinkpad.

And as with most things it costs a lot more to get that last or extra 10% than the first 90%.

ju5tin81
Mar 18, 2008, 02:44 PM
I don't think Apple is nearly as greedy as you would make them out to be. Sure, their margins tend to be higher than other computer manufacturers, around 30% they usually state in their financials. But if you think they can manufacture the $2500 MacBook Pro, sell it for $1200 and still make any profit, I think you're wrong. A 30% margin means it costs them about $1923 to manufacture that MBP they sell for $2500. And that $1200 Thinkpad is not the SAME computer.

And I've said it before, so I'll just link to my previous post again: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4542947&postcount=15

You must admit though, suddenly pulling the 9 remote, which will hinder the Front Row experience immensely, for the sake of 9, on a multimedia machine that's 1299 is very 'cheap' of Apple.

How long before software restore disks become an add-on? Very 'budget' PC approach. Apple's all about the experience, but it's potentially harming a successful lines 'luxury' experience for the sake of 9. Front row is surely one of the selling points...

In store demos it'll for ever be "Hey look at this, but oh yeah, the remotes an extra""

Apogee
Mar 18, 2008, 03:25 PM
The all-aluminum build of the MBP is much nicer than black plastic and more expensive.


Erm, thinkpads are not made from plastic at all. Instead they are made with some form of titanium composite that is coated in a polymer. It is very space age materials used in its construction really.

To give credit where it is due at least with a Thinkpad I can afford to *drop* it without even giving a thought about it getting a dent or a scratch. Indeed in campus demonstrations Thinkpads are thrown and smashed against walls to prove their durability.

trip1ex
Mar 18, 2008, 03:30 PM
Erm, thinkpads are not made from plastic at all. Instead they are made with some form of titanium composite that is coated in a polymer. It is very space age materials used in its construction really.

To give credit where it is due at least with a Thinkpad I can afford to *drop* it without even giving a thought about it getting a dent or a scratch. Indeed in campus demonstrations Thinkpads are thrown and smashed against walls to prove their durability.

Some Thinkpads feature "Magnesium, carbon fiber reinforced plastic or titanium composite cases"

Composite being a keyword there too. Anyway no one said Thinkpads weren't tough, but they aren't using alumuminum which I believe is a much more expensive material to use in laptops. I could be wrong. Maybe Apple is fooling me there. ;)

Joko
Mar 18, 2008, 03:54 PM
ok can we please stop reviving this pointless thread.

saltyzoo
Mar 18, 2008, 04:05 PM
ok can we please stop reviving this pointless thread.

You first!

macenforcer
Mar 18, 2008, 04:51 PM
The reason why they don't have a dock and bluray(which isnt even THAT immediately important, for me at least) is because they beleive in simplicity and elegance.


Love how people rationalize lack of features as simplicity and elegance. LMFAO!

burningrave101
Mar 18, 2008, 05:58 PM
I'd love to see a Dell run for more than 3 hours on a stock (not 12 Cell 50lb extended battery) battery.

3 hours should be fairly easily attainable on a stock 6 cell battery on something like the XPS m1330 with LED-backlit display. The 9 cell battery lasts upwards of 4-5+ hours. Neither one are very heavy.

e12a
Mar 18, 2008, 07:09 PM
just for the sake of argument, rearding that relatively well put together comparison between a T61 and (high end) MBP,

someone else mentioned you forgot sound. Yes, I dont think the Lenovo has digital optical audio (although limited) and optical input. MBP wins in the sound department. That can be a deal breaker for some.

There are good deals on computers out there. Apple does not have to be one of those companies--no one is forcing you to buy a Mac. If you like an IBM, go for it. If you want a good deal on a MBP get last generation's or a refurb.

At work we have a 15.4" dell latitude laptop that is huge. probably 1.5x thicker than my MBP next to it. But it does have a nice 1680 x *** screen which I was pleasantly surprised to find. Unfortunately the chip that powers the nice screen was a simple Intel GMA chipset.

macgroovy
Mar 18, 2008, 07:20 PM
OS X can handle all ram but needs 3gb to run properly.

I'm wondering why you say the MBP needs 3GB to run OS X properly?? What do you mean by that? I have the stock standard 2GB and things seems to fly pretty fast. Not doubting you, just curious.

TimeWaster101
Mar 18, 2008, 09:45 PM
I don't know you, and haven't been on this forum long enough to know whether or not you are being sarcastic with your post. Looking at the comparison from the poster I replied to, I realized one more useful tidbit in the volume/profit reasoning. I shouldn't have missed it before, but I have been up for the better part of 20 hours traveling for work.

When you look at the video cards that were posted in the comparison, the one glaring thing that stands out, is the difference in dedicated memory. This is most definitely attributed to the needs of Lenovo's major line of business... Corporate America! Any company that needs to order tons of machines will gladly sacrifice resolution and VRAM, for more HD space and RAM. Even at that, I regulary have customers who have to upgrade the RAM in the "spec machines" they buy.

Apple's major line of business is the general consumer. If you don't believe me, go price out a Solaris Sunfire series machine, and you will find that you can get at least 2 screaming Solaris machines for the price of a completely maxed out Mac Pro. I have only been using a mac for about 4 months, and have worked on every type of machine out there, from an OS/390 MF, OpenVMS Alpha/VAX, OS/2, AS/400, all the way down to my past thinkpads, and my current MAC. Regardless of how much someone wants to cry foul, and get their panties in a bunch, the bottom line is that the company's bottom line is thier top priority. When they get away from that, and things don't go as planned, REALLY bad things happen.

Bear Stearns anyone?

oh no I wasn't being sarcastic. i really was agreeing with you. Sorry if it sounded sarcastic. it wasn't meant to.

Etrain
Mar 18, 2008, 10:15 PM
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal?
...
Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop.

Apple is a uniquely positioned company. Your argument is like saying Taco Bell sells cheaper burritos than Chipotle. Of-course they do, they target totally different customers.

When you buy anything Apple you aren't buying a computer, iPod, iPhone, or whatever, you are buying the something of value called design, ease of use, and even OS X. That is Apple's core competency over other companies within a given industry (phones, computers, music players, etc.).

Comparing Apple's products to any other brand will obviously lead you away from Apple because they are almost ALWAYS priced above the competition because their target market is not primarily concerned with price. The typical Apple buyer is most concerned with status, prestige, ease of use (ie no viruses), and design.

Why would Apple charge less for something when no other company is offering what they offer? Stop thinking about it just as a computer, because you are buying a list of somethings of value that aren't even typically associated with computers. Again, those SOVs are status, prestige, ease of use (ie no viruses), and design.

Honestly, if price is your main concern than the Thinkpad you bought is the right choice. You are in good company as last time I checked Apple's market share is under 20% of the computer industry. Apple doesn't compete based on price. You will always find something cheaper elsewhere.

Simply put, Apple offers a different product than any other computer manufacturer. All the other brands are becoming commodities while Apple is sticking out because they are different. For you, it seems the price is paramount so you totally made the right choice. For me though, I appreciate the SOVs Apple offers that no one else can offer.

Good, my marketing degree is paying off already! :D

macenforcer
Mar 18, 2008, 11:03 PM
You know I find it hard to believe people would actually say apple doesn't need to increase specs and lower prices. I wouldn't be surprised if all the people saying this are working for the Apple machine and they have a whole department dedicated to squashing talk like this on macrumors. :eek: You got found out!

TimeWaster101
Mar 19, 2008, 12:09 AM
You know I find it hard to believe people would actually say apple doesn't need to increase specs and lower prices. I wouldn't be surprised if all the people saying this are working for the Apple machine and they have a whole department dedicated to squashing talk like this on macrumors. :eek: You got found out!

bottom line is they are overpriced, but you have a few things going against them decreasing in price:

1. Greed. Of course, what company isn't this way.
2. Premium quality (thinner components cost more as well. also the slot drive is expensive.)
3. Like someone above said, only they offer certain features and people have shown their willing to pay it.
4. Quantity-Apple just isn't a huge computer supplier. Less sales of a unit=more expensive price per unit.

However, I must agree they should lower them. For instance, I know people that would love to own a mac, but due to finances are unable. This is sad, but unforetunatley their just not cheap machines. One thing I can say is that at least they hold their value well and last a LONG time. I've had the ibook I'm typing on for 4 years, and besides having to replace the superdrive, its ran as fast as it did day 1. Never could say that for any PC I've owned.

Also, just OSX is worth the extra money.

And the biggest problem with your argument is:

It shouldn't be a Macbook Pro vs Thinkpad, but Macbook vs Thinkpad argument. When you do that, you get two computers with similar components and prices. So Whalla! Also I've searched other PC brands for similar specs to the Macbook pro and personally didn't feel the Pro was that overpriced.

But hopefully you like your thinkpad... You'll hate Vista/Xp though... I could bet money you'll be back to mac by the end of the year. :p

Apogee
Mar 19, 2008, 02:35 AM
Some Thinkpads feature "Magnesium, carbon fiber reinforced plastic or titanium composite cases"

Composite being a keyword there too. Anyway no one said Thinkpads weren't tough, but they aren't using alumuminum which I believe is a much more expensive material to use in laptops. I could be wrong. Maybe Apple is fooling me there. ;)

Actually I don't consider aluminum to be a "boon" on Apple's part. I have seen enough colleagues carrying around Macbook Pros with dinged corners to be careful about carrying my own around.

What's so great about aluminum? You get them for free with your $0.50 can of soft drink!

saltyzoo
Mar 19, 2008, 05:34 AM
You know I find it hard to believe people would actually say apple doesn't need to increase specs and lower prices. I wouldn't be surprised if all the people saying this are working for the Apple machine and they have a whole department dedicated to squashing talk like this on macrumors. :eek: You got found out!

You figured it out. :rolleyes:

It's all Apple employees buying them too. :p

MascisMan
Mar 19, 2008, 09:24 AM
What's so great about aluminum? You get them for free with your $0.50 can of soft drink!

Kind of like the free plastic forks/spoons/straws/cup I can have from every fastfood restaurant regardless if I purchase anything?

Azmordean
Mar 19, 2008, 09:27 AM
I think Apple's computers, like the MacBook Pro, are great systems and reflect the way they design the OS. The reason why they don't have a dock and bluray(which isnt even THAT immediately important, for me at least) is because they beleive in simplicity and elegance. Look at the MBP for example. Its made of all aluminum, on the underside there arent any fans/plastic peices/and dock connections. This is done because Mac users dont really need it. They designed the computer so that you can put in on your bed for example without worrying about it freaking out coz the fan is clogged. Plus, with the advent of USB, I dont really see the point of having a dock connector. How about I just plug in my USB hub that has everything I need at home attached to it? Isnt that like a dock connector? And if I've got an external monitor, Ive got a full-blown DVI port that I can convert to VGA, S-Video or Composite using an adapter, which BTW is much easier to lug around than a huge peice of plastic dock. I believe that Apple designs things for a reason. Docks aren't the most useful things anymore. Sure they were when computers didn't have many connections and the connections that they did have were huge ugly parallel ports and such, but with firewire and usb, I dont see it as a REQUIREMENT.

Plus, what makes you think Apple is targeting the business user anyways?
Its targetting the professional who likes to do things at home and on the go.
I'm an electrical engineering student, and Ive used this computer everywhere I go. I havent seen a single Windows notebook that has 5 hours of battery life without being extremely crippled spec-wise. Maybe things have changed, but I've been a windows fanboy up until last year and had many computers and haven't heard a single report from anyone saying that their battery lasts more than two hours. And why is that? Its not like the hardware is so drastically different. Its just that Apple's OSX is a closed platform, so they can focus on each computer THEY design and are able to squeeze out as much performance and battery life as possible, using either hardware or software schemes. I'd love to see a Dell run for more than 3 hours on a stock (not 12 Cell 50lb extended battery) battery.

Actually the lack of a dock IS significant, to a lot of people, namelyanyone who wants to regularly use their laptop as a desktop. First thing you need to realize is a dock does not REPLACE the ports on the side of the computer, its in addition. So you still have the convenience of the full blown DVI port, etc, when on the road without needing the dock. But, when you are at home or at your office, where you have the dock set up, you just set the computer in it and you're done. A USB hub helps of course, but you still have the Monitor, audio cable, and ethernet cable to plug in. Perhaps the main reason to have a dock is to avoid the "cable clutter" that occurs with having a bunch of cables coming out of both sides of a laptop - with the dock, they all come out of the back, allowing for a much nicer workspace. Its not a huge deal certainly, but it is a negative for Apple's laptops right now.

Concorde Rules
Mar 19, 2008, 09:38 AM
So basically you bought something that looks ****, physically bigger, weighs more and runs windows?

1. Design, HOW THE **** do you change the design? Its minimalist, the smallest they can get it and looks great, what the hell more do you want? You even bought a plastic brick that looks awful!

2. Fans. Hmmmmmmmm, bad design? No, just no. I don't think so. Im betting that the fans ARE either running in that or they kick in and get to the same level as the MBP does when at 100%.

3. Upgradeable CPUs require more space, macs hold value well so in a years time I sell this for 1000 put 400 maybe more into a brand new one, job done. Not really a feature TBH! Want upgradability? Get a desktop.


Screen going all the way back? wow you know I've never needed a flat laptop :confused:


All in all you got what you wanted, where I got everything I wanted in a MBP. It turns on, does what I want and turns off again, every time. All while being easy to carry around and looking great when out and about. While I was at school I had a load of people round my laptop and no-one else was around anyone elses laptop. Now THAT is design!

Etrain
Mar 19, 2008, 10:56 AM
You know I find it hard to believe people would actually say apple doesn't need to increase specs and lower prices. I wouldn't be surprised if all the people saying this are working for the Apple machine and they have a whole department dedicated to squashing talk like this on macrumors. :eek: You got found out!

OMG! You figured it all out! It is soo a giant conspiracy! Not only am I Steve Jobs, but George Bush planned 9/11, JFK was killed by the mofia, and the moon landing was done in Boise, ID!

Now excuse me, I'm off to eat puppies because they are screamers and insanely great with my special bottled water.

Apogee
Mar 19, 2008, 01:59 PM
Kind of like the free plastic forks/spoons/straws/cup I can have from every fastfood restaurant regardless if I purchase anything?

Since when are Thinkpads clad with plastic? Ram a Thinkpad against a Macbook Pro, which laptop will be crushed? Hint: Not the "fugly" one.

I find it very amusing why people keep mentioning Apple's decision to use such a soft metal to build a laptop as a plus. Why not titanium instead?

GotPro
Mar 19, 2008, 04:01 PM
I don't get your point of anger.

When I go build a T61 15" Thinkpad...

It costs me $1560... and for that, I get the same specs as the base model 15" Macbook Pro.

EXCEPT...

That the USB Camera has to be mounted on top of the screen and makes the whole contraption bloody ugly.

It weighs wayyyy more.

Screen is not even close in comparison (image qualities).

Video card is REALLY REALLY LAME... the 8600M GT 256 will run circles around the 140M in the Thinkpad.

No Glossy.

No Firewire 400.

No Firewire 800.

No OS X.

No iLife Products.

So... let's see... for $430 I get (at least to my eyes) a much more appealing industrial design, great glossy screen, integrated web cam, integrated firewire 800, 4x the video card with 2x the video ram, OSX vs XP or Vista, and iLife vs... NOTHING.

You know what? That's SOOOO worth $430 to me. Not only that... in 2 years... I'll get MUCH MORE than the $430 extra I spent to begin with in RESALE VALUE... so the MacBook PRO ends up, total cost of ownership, being less. :rolleyes:

And I have to give up 2 buttons (I'm sooo okay with key click combo or external mouse) and the inability to upgrade the cpu?

HA! :D If that's what makes you happy! Enjoy my friend ;-)

TimeWaster101
Mar 19, 2008, 05:07 PM
I don't get your point of anger.

When I go build a T61 15" Thinkpad...

It costs me $1560... and for that, I get the same specs as the base model 15" Macbook Pro.

EXCEPT...

That the USB Camera has to be mounted on top of the screen and makes the whole contraption bloody ugly.

It weighs wayyyy more.

Screen is not even close in comparison (image qualities).

Video card is REALLY REALLY LAME... the 8600M GT 256 will run circles around the 140M in the Thinkpad.

No Glossy.

No Firewire 400.

No Firewire 800.

No OS X.

No iLife Products.

So... let's see... for $430 I get (at least to my eyes) a much more appealing industrial design, great glossy screen, integrated web cam, integrated firewire 800, 4x the video card with 2x the video ram, OSX vs XP or Vista, and iLife vs... NOTHING.

You know what? That's SOOOO worth $430 to me. Not only that... in 2 years... I'll get MUCH MORE than the $430 extra I spent to begin with in RESALE VALUE... so the MacBook PRO ends up, total cost of ownership, being less. :rolleyes:

And I have to give up 2 buttons (I'm sooo okay with key click combo or external mouse) and the inability to upgrade the cpu?

HA! :D If that's what makes you happy! Enjoy my friend ;-)

Amen! Plus you also get a backlit keyboard, slot loading drive instead of tray, better quality screen, and multi-touch (which I've tried and it is REALLY worth it. it would be so helpfull on the go!).

andrewdale
Mar 19, 2008, 06:04 PM
Since when are Thinkpads clad with plastic? Ram a Thinkpad against a Macbook Pro, which laptop will be crushed? Hint: Not the "fugly" one.

I find it very amusing why people keep mentioning Apple's decision to use such a soft metal to build a laptop as a plus. Why not titanium instead?

They did have a titanium notebook.

And as far as I know, wireless was practically a joke.

When you put that much dense metal around a wireless card, you're gonna get some SERIOUSLY bad reception.

Amen! Plus you also get a backlit keyboard, slot loading drive instead of tray, better quality screen, and multi-touch (which I've tried and it is REALLY worth it. it would be so helpfull on the go!).

+1

Multi-touch is great. That backlight, absolutely perfect. Screen is gorgeous.

powerboo71
Mar 19, 2008, 06:24 PM
Dear my friend, this is a mac forum, why wasting your time with writing us stories about your new thinkpad. but let me say one(two) things, i saw your thinkpad wonder on ebay, same design since the 80s , and plastic everywhere. the keyboard-letters are laminated ? i love my macbook pro, because it is design from one hand.

dpaanlka
Mar 19, 2008, 06:31 PM
It still amuses me when people complain about a specific product they want costing too much, even though there are hundreds of competing products, many of which are less expensive.

If you think it's too expensive, then don't buy it. The OP made the right choice for himself, but why come here and whine further?

Psydrop
Mar 19, 2008, 06:34 PM
listen here, all you mac fans need to realise that apple is ripping you off. Not that i don't like mac products, cause i will buy a macbook pro. But they just charge way more then other manifacturers. And don't say that mac osx and all the other stuff is worth paying 500$ more, it just isn't. And, apple also still asks the same amount of money even when the product is dated, it's just not honest. They just want a lot of profit and i can't blame them but you can't deny that they overcharge. Apple has some great products, but my guess is that they will lose a lot of consumers due to overcharging, and that is ****ed up.

i rest my case.

dpaanlka
Mar 19, 2008, 06:38 PM
And I have to give up 2 buttons (I'm sooo okay with key click combo or external mouse)

Actually, all MacBooks will "right-click" when two fingers are placed on the trackpad during the click. This is an optional feature, and is turned off by default, but can be turned on in System Preferences. They'll also scroll (up and down or left and right) with two fingers placed anywhere on the trackpad.

I'll take that over two physical buttons and a small dedicated area of my trackpad just to scroll up and down any day.

listen here, all you mac fans need to realise that apple is ripping you off. Not that i don't like mac products, cause i will buy a macbook pro. But they just charge way more then other manifacturers. And don't say that mac osx and all the other stuff is worth paying 500$ more, it just isn't. And, apple also still asks the same amount of money even when the product is dated, it's just not honest. They just want a lot of profit and i can't blame them but you can't deny that they overcharge. Apple has some great products, but my guess is that they will lose a lot of consumers due to overcharging, and that is ****ed up.

Compelling insight... thank you for that. :rolleyes:

Psydrop
Mar 19, 2008, 06:40 PM
Compelling insight... thank you for that. :rolleyes:

hey no problem:cool:

Shabbis
Mar 19, 2008, 06:48 PM
I find it very amusing why people keep mentioning Apple's decision to use such a soft metal to build a laptop as a plus. Why not titanium instead?

Since when is aircraft grade aluminum that is used in the macbook pros a "soft metal"? It's a completely different grade than your average soda can. I hope we aren't flying around in soda pop grade aluminum in our aircraft, that would be quite scary.

andrewdale
Mar 19, 2008, 07:17 PM
Since when is aircraft grade aluminum that is used in the macbook pros a "soft metal"? It's a completely different grade than your average soda can. I hope we aren't flying around in soda pop grade aluminum in our aircraft, that would be quite scary.

That's very true. The last time I flew on a plane that was sponsored by Coca-Cola, it was the scariest experience of my life.

jplan2008
Mar 19, 2008, 08:17 PM
I don't get your point of anger.

When I go build a T61 15" Thinkpad...

(SNIP)


So... let's see... for $430 I get (at least to my eyes) a much more appealing industrial design, great glossy screen, integrated web cam, integrated firewire 800, 4x the video card with 2x the video ram, OSX vs XP or Vista, and iLife vs... NOTHING.

You know what? That's SOOOO worth $430 to me. Not only that... in 2 years... I'll get MUCH MORE than the $430 extra I spent to begin with in RESALE VALUE... so the MacBook PRO ends up, total cost of ownership, being less. :rolleyes:




And add in $79 for printer (their cheapest; apple has $99 rebate) and ? for shipping (the asterisk says doesn't include shipping, but can't get a quote without actually buying the damn thing); $30 for "easy transfer tray for windows vista" to transfer files. (most users would need that. The "useless" FW with mac serves that purpose). Add $69 to be able to talk to Lenovo rep. once on phone in first year to talk about things including "spyware issues" -- their wording on webpage, not mine. List price is actually about the SAME or even MORE for Thinkpad depending on which configuration you do; but lenovo is having a sale, so $300-$500 cheaper. And in two years when the OP realizes s/he can't upgrade the CPU, and decides to sell it, at least $200 that difference is made up with resale value. So are firewire ports, better graphics, OS X, beautiful machine, iLife, better customer service, etc., worth $100-$300? Well, you decide. And if the price really goes back up for T61 on April 7, then overall, MBP will be CHEAPER when take into account resale value.

(BTW, yes I think Apple is "greedy." Like all big corporations. They care about profit. I'm sure, although I don't know for sure, they exploit the workers in countries they outsource to like most big corporations. I'm also sure most of us here would be outraged by the prices if they didn't, so I guess WE'RE ALSO greedy. Are they SOOOO greedy? (more than Dell or Microsoft or whatever other big corporation? I haven't seen evidence of that in this thread. Are they a monopoly (let's use an everyday definition unfairly giving disadvantage to competition)? I haven't seen evidence of that either in this thread.

I don't care what computer complete strangers use, and I'm not personally affronted that someone chose another computer. Don't approximately 85% of purchasers choose another brand for whatever reasons are most important to them? I don't care about Apple's profits, but at least get the facts right if you need to discuss your choice on (mac) forum boards -- the price difference, even on paper, is NOT $1300.

macenforcer
Mar 20, 2008, 11:00 AM
I think this settles the debate.


Debate Settled (http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=59402)

cdavi060
Mar 20, 2008, 12:09 PM
macbook is prettier....:apple:

GAS
Mar 20, 2008, 12:09 PM
I think this settles the debate.


Debate Settled (http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=59402)

There's nothing to settle.

Apple charge more for their products. People know this and buy them anyway.

PowerFullMac
Mar 20, 2008, 12:10 PM
macbook is prettier....:apple:

Yep, and the black ones look so cool!

macenforcer
Mar 20, 2008, 12:15 PM
There's nothing to settle.

Apple charge more for their products. People know this and buy them anyway.


Oh but they don't buy them anyway, reference linky I posted please. People are wising up and apple is going to get into some serious sales trouble here. There is already a major decline in macbook pro sales and its falling like a rock in the water. Many stores reporting macbook pro stock building up to record stockpiles . THey just can't sell them man. That is why they ship in 24hrs.

saltyzoo
Mar 20, 2008, 12:29 PM
Oh but they don't buy them anyway, reference linky I posted please. People are wising up and apple is going to get into some serious sales trouble here. There is already a major decline in macbook pro sales and its falling like a rock in the water. Many stores reporting macbook pro stock building up to record stockpiles . THey just can't sell them man. That is why they ship in 24hrs.

Yep. That's why 5 of my co-workers have switched to Mac and bought MBP's in the last 6 months.

It's also why I see as many macs in airports now as I do Dell's.

Apple is in serious trouble if they keep this up.

BTW, WTH exactly is your point anyway?

e12a
Mar 20, 2008, 12:36 PM
lol...all the computers on apple.com ship within 24 hours except for the Air, which is understandable. how does that equate to them not selling? Isnt that a good thing for us? :rolleyes: Correlation does not equal causation.

macenforcer
Mar 20, 2008, 12:56 PM
lol...all the computers on apple.com ship within 24 hours except for the Air, which is understandable. how does that equate to them not selling? Isnt that a good thing for us? :rolleyes: Correlation does not equal causation.

Well I believe its simple supply and demand just like which has been stated thoughout this thread repeatedly. There is too much supply and not enough demand hence the overstock and 24hr shipments.