HOw the World sees the US

[Pinto]

link (http://www.iht.com/articles/115911.html)

This commentary seems spot-on to me.

More than nine months into the Iraq crisis, meetings between West Europeans and Americans of goodwill remain strained nondialogues in which most of the American participants find it hard to admit that the catastrophic loss of America's reputation abroad has anything to do with them.

Such a meeting in this old port city last weekend produced the usual American citations of scandalous incidents of foreign anti-Americanism.

The German Marshall Fund statistics were circulated, showing that the gap between American and European attitudes is widening and that Europeans increasingly disapprove of America's position as the sole superpower.

The Americans' response is nearly always that there must have been some failure in communication. Perhaps the United States should "consult" more, they say.

"It's as if they can't hear," said an Irishman who had thought of himself as one of America's best friends abroad.

But every nation has a story - a narrative it tells to explain its place in the flow of history and to give meaning to its actions. The American story since 1942 (and before) is well known, and is considered by Americans and others a story reflecting responsibility and high-mindedness.

Despite aberrations in Vietnam and Latin America, the American story of responsible world leadership has been accepted among democracies as an essentially valid account of the role modern America played during the years leading up to the collapse of the Soviet Union. The problem today is that, in the view of many others, the story has changed. Another one has taken its place, even though most Americans deny that this is so.

Because of the powerful Calvinist influence - predestinarian and theocratic - in American Protestantism, the American story has always described a confrontation between the Elect and the Evil.

When the Soviet Union no longer fulfilled the latter role, Washington tried out several possible successors, finally settling on "rogue nations" - those professing radically un-American ideas and that give evidence of wanting to possess nuclear deterrents.

Their feebleness, however, tended to diminish their credibility when cast in the role of global Evil.

Then came Sept. 11, and the problem was solved. The rogue nations now became the Axis of Evil. They were integral to a vast international threat, capable of striking the United States itself. Moreover, this threat more or less resembled (less, actually, than more) the clash between civilizations that Samuel Huntington had warned would be the "next world war."

Americans declared that "everything has changed, and nothing can be the same." The nation was at war with "terror."

Terror expressed itself through Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Palestinian suicide-bombers, South American narco-terrorists, Chechen separatists and Moro separatists in the southern Philippines. Terror was a ubiquitous force that could ultimately manifest itself in weapons of mass destruction, supplied by the rogue states.

Hence, preventive wars were necessary; Afghanistan and Iraq had to be invaded to seize terror's leaders and their nuclear and biological weapons. International law must step aside.

But what actually has happened during the past nine months is something Americans have yet to grasp, and that others have yet to say out loud: People outside the United States have stopped believing the American story.

They don't think terrorism is an Evil force the United States is going to defeat. They say instead that terrorism is a way people wage war when they don't have F-16's or armored divisions.

They say that Chechens, Moros, Taliban, Colombian insurgents, Palestinian bombers and Iraqi enemies of the U.S. occupation do not really make up a single global phenomenon that the world must mobilize to defeat.

They say that, actually, they had never really believed the American story in the first place. They had listened to it because Washington said it, and they respected Washington. Now they don't.

This is the reason why there is trouble between the United States and the countries that have been its allies. And this is why it may indeed prove true that between them, things "will never be the same."

[zimv20]

if US citizens weren't so blinded by fear, they'd likely come to feel the same way.

the administration's agenda-pushing is so bloody transparent, it floors me that some people can't see right through it.

willful ignorance? paralyzed by fear? unwillingness to admit they're wrong?

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by zimv20
willful ignorance? paralyzed by fear? unwillingness to admit they're wrong?

-Believing the media..?

[zimv20]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-Believing the media..?

but the stuff's out there, if people are willing to look. heck, they can come to the MR politics section and get a pretty good smattering of articles about things that don't always make the 10 o'clock news.

when one compares the neocon beliefs, as self-stated, to how the administration runs its foreign policy, then compares the treatment of specific businesses and industries to campaign contributions and personal relationships, it's nigh well impossible to not draw some rather unsavory conclusions.

the information _is_ out there. and the rest of the world sees it pretty plainly.

[Desertrat]

This is one of those "It seems to me..." deals:

We've lost the ability to differentiate between efforts like WW II and Korea (and Vietnam) and some of the other Cold War hostilities, and "nit-picky" things like Panama, the Balkans and Somalia. Somehow we've come to believe we should "extend democracy" into countries where there seems to be no understanding of fair play and equal rights and all that. The "one man, one vote, one time" places.

Various governments around the world have been evil or badnasty or genocidal to the "citizens" within their boundaries. Most of Africa; much of the middle east...

Some of us who are conservative on many issues have long questioned why it is appropriate for us to do more than lead by example, that example being mostly confined to our actions here at home.

It's ironic to me that in the 1980 presidential campaign, the Democrats were against the role of GloboRoboCop. Then came Clinton and the Balkans where we indeed took on that role. Now, with Gulf Wars I & II, the issue of GRC has arisen once again.

I gotta admit I get a bit fed up with expediency and short-term views of foreign policy and all that.

I dunno. You have the internecine warfare in places like Ethiopia/Somalia or Chad. You have guys like Saddam, happily killing whomever displeases him, whether individuals or groups like the Kurds. Why is it somehow up to us to redress all wrongs?

This doesn't mean I object to killing off dictators where a national interest is involved, like oil. But, that's really only "okay" if there is a threat to our supply of oil. If Mr. Badnasty is selling at the world price, why should we really care how he abuses the citizenry?

Nuff for now. Note I've stayed away from "terrorism". :)

'Rat

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by zimv20
but the stuff's out there, if people are willing to look. heck, they can come to the MR politics section and get a pretty good smattering of articles about things that don't always make the 10 o'clock news.

when one compares the neocon beliefs, as self-stated, to how the administration runs its foreign policy, then compares the treatment of specific businesses and industries to campaign contributions and personal relationships, it's nigh well impossible to not draw some rather unsavory conclusions.

the information _is_ out there. and the rest of the world sees it pretty plainly.

-zimv20

Absolutely. But how many actually dig? - even a little.

Moost, I find, prefer to believe the media, and leave it there.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Desertrat
Some of us who are conservative on many issues have long questioned why it is appropriate for us to do more than lead by example, that example being mostly confined to our actions here at home.

It's ironic to me that in the 1980 presidential campaign, the Democrats were against the role of GloboRoboCop. Then came Clinton and the Balkans where we indeed took on that role. Now, with Gulf Wars I & II, the issue of GRC has arisen once again.


I also note you find the democratic switch ironic, but there is no mention of the (recent) Republican switch on the same issue.

I seem to recall something from the 2000 campaign about a promise to not engage in "nation-building", that we didn't need to be the GRC. Also something about humility in our foreign relations, a new tone in government, and a promise to be "a uniter, not a divider". Perhaps you could refresh my memory about who said those things....

[zimv20]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-zimv20

Absolutely. But how many actually dig? - even a little.

Moost, I find, prefer to believe the media, and leave it there.

which is why we're doomed

[pseudobrit]

We have an obligation to stop the sytematic eradication of an entire race or ethnic group.

We have an obligation to protect our citizenry from foreign attack in their homeland.

Beyond that, no matter how nasty the dictator is to his people or what he's done to your daddy or how much oil he's sitting on, there is no justification for waging war.

[Desertrat]

So, pseudobrit, what would you call Saddam's efforts against the Kurds?

'Rat

[pseudobrit]

Checked.

[pseudobrit]

I should clarify.

Before the war, checked.

[Pinto]

Originally posted by Desertrat
Somehow we've come to believe we should "extend democracy" into countries where there seems to be no understanding of fair play and equal rights and all that. The "one man, one vote, one time" places.

Some of us who are conservative on many issues have long questioned why it is appropriate for us to do more than lead by example, that example being mostly confined to our actions here at home.

'Rat

Listening to you, one wonders if you're talking about the US or some fantasy country.

Could you explain to me how you helped "extend democracy" into Chile with Pinochet, or into Iran with the Shah.

Does leading by example include supporting Saddam against Iran or arming and training the Mujahadeem (sp?).

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Pinto
Listening to you, one wonders if you're talking about the US or some fantasy country.

Could you explain to me how you helped "extend democracy" into Chile with Pinochet, or into Iran with the Shah.

Does leading by example include supporting Saddam against Iran or arming and training the Mujahadeem (sp?).

Of course, because by supporting their dicators and terrorists, we help our interests, which means our democracy is extended to us even more. See? It's wonderful. Now go do something for (our) democracy or you're next.

[whocares]

Originally posted by Pinto
Could you explain to me how you helped "extend democracy" into Chile with Pinochet, or into Iran with the Shah.

Does leading by example include supporting Saddam against Iran or arming and training the Mujahadeem (sp?).

You forgot putting Saddam there in the first place.
Also forgot telling Saddam it would be ok to invade Kuwait...............so the US had a good reason to set up a friendly dictatorship in Kuwait :rolleyes:

Back on topic.
I don't think it's the US that has a real bad image, more like the people governing it and their unbelivably short sighted foreign politics... I mean is bombing muslim countries left, right and center the best way to stop terrorism? Sounds to me like it's the best way to encourrage it.

[Desertrat]

Pinto, the U.S. is not really a place; it's an idea. It is an idea which has never been realized, and probably never will be. That doesn't mean folks should quit trying.

We've never had a Beaver Cleaver world, here, and never will--but that doesn't mean it would be a bad thing...

For whatever reason, we air our squabbbles, here, more than any other country. I note that this has long puzzled many foreign observers. Well, too bad; that's us, and it's what we do. Our arguments are much less about WHAT to do; they have to do with HOW to do. Liberal or conservative or purple with yellow polia dots, the primary issue here is how to have, overall, a good life for as many as possible.

All this is of course separate and distinct from what our foreign policy wonks have led us to, over the years...However, even those folks don't operate from a viewpoint of hatred or total disdain for others.

Schizophrenia run rampant? What can I say? All of us do the best we can with what our own life's experiences have shown us.

Me? I guess I'm still a sorta romantic idealist, just like I've always been.

:), 'Rat

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Desertrat
We've never had a Beaver Cleaver world, here, and never will--but that doesn't mean it would be a bad thing...

'Rat, I think the problem is the "Eddie Haskells" have taken over! ;)

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Desertrat
We've never had a Beaver Cleaver world, here, and never will--but that doesn't mean it would be a bad thing...


Don't let the ladies hear you say that...

[Desertrat]

Now, mac, if a lady wants to stay home and do the housewife thing, wouldn't it be nice if it only took one wage-earner to make it possible?

And if that lady prefers to go for Chairman of the Board of El Biggie, Inc., hey, she oughta be free to do so!

:), 'Rat

[mactastic]

How egalitarian of you 'Rat! So nice of you to permit the ladies to have a choice.

But yes, it would be nice if a one-earner home could suffice these days. Perhaps private industry has a solution to this problem?

[Pinto]

Originally posted by Desertrat
Pinto, the U.S. is not really a place; it's an idea. It is an idea which has never been realized, and probably never will be. :), 'Rat

This finally explains your disconnection with reality

:)

[candan9019]

I think It's naive to say that America does something or to be Anti-American. You just end up catagorizing all Americans a certin way. The government does the decision making for Americans. Americans don't have much of a say besides "elections" and everyone knows what those are like. When people protest things like war in some other countries they usually take an Anti-American stance. How can they be against all Americans though if many In this country feel the same way they do? People need to realize that the administration is who they disagree with not the people, well not most anyway.

[Pinto]

America culture is portrayed by it's foreign policy and it's television programs.

we don't get to see much else over here.

[Desertrat]

Pinto, striving toward an ideal is the way I was raised. I've always tried to make my own little chunk of world a better place, wherever I was. As to politics, I've tried to support candidates who would at least head in a better-place direction, which might explain some of my cynicism. :)

And I've been close enough to reality that I have only had the mandates of courtesy and politeness to say "Sir" to anybody since 1977. I've never been wealthy, but I've been independently not-broke, doing what I want, when I want, and getting out of bed when it suits me. :D

One thing for AnZacs is that we had a pretty good cooperative effort to keep y'all from having to learn Japanese...Most of us Yanks are still that sort of folks...

:), 'Rat

[Pinto]

Rat,

The goodwill generated 60 years ago can't be expected to last forever. Forgiving the sins of the sons, for the Sainthood of the Fathers?

WWII was a cooperative effort. The ANZACs, Yanks, Indians, British etc were defending each others and well as there own interests, don't make it sound like you were coming to our aid through your own good heart. Where would America be today if Japan controlled the Pacific and the Nazis Europe?

As far as getting out of bed when it suits, now that I can respect.

[SPG]

I guess a lot of the republicans and american conservatives have been staying out of europe lately since I get a singular response from the Europeans I talk to..."What the hell is your government up to? And how come I have personally found no americans who support it?"
It's funny that so many Europeans, and for that matter people all around the world, really like Americans. No kidding, even in the midst of 100,000 anti war protestors in Milan you will not find too many people who will rebuff you just for being a citizen of the USA. They will however give you an earfull about the current government and it's policies.
Contrast that with the shamefull French bashing after the french government dared to disagree with our rush to war.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by SPG
I guess a lot of the republicans and american conservatives have been staying out of europe lately

i personally know very few conservatives who've traveled outside the country on pleasure trips.

stated another way, of the people i know who are politically conservative, very few of them have left the US except on business trips.

i've had many political discussions when traveling. i'm often pleasantly surprised by how well-informed the people i meet are.

stated another way, i'm often reminded how poorly-informed americans are about their own government.

[SPG]

I wonder if the conservatives would still be so conservative if they had broader experiences?

[zimv20]

Originally posted by SPG
I wonder if the conservatives would still be so conservative if they had broader experiences?

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness. -Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)

[Desertrat]

A minority is a six-foot blond guy in downtown Manila, Hong Kong or Tokyo. :D

I've lived in or travelled extensively in some 20 different countries. That hasn't kept me from having rather conservative views about spending tax dollars or about morality in general.

I'd imagine that exposure to different cultures and religions at a fairly early age--middle teens through early twenties--probably made a difference as to my attitude about "otherness".

One thing to remember is that the U.S. is one of the largest and most populated areas where you can go without let nor hindrance for some 3,000 miles and still find the same language and basic laws. Europe, on the other hand, is much, much smaller on a per-country basis. They are pretty much without choice in learning their neighbors' ways and manners, as well as the languages.

As far as jingoistic bigotry, our internal attitudes are bad enough. City vs. rural, Noo Joisey vs Jawgia...:)

'Rat

[Coimbrap]

Contrast that with the shamefull French bashing after the french government dared to disagree with our rush to war.
Indeed, we are still trying to understand what was all that (and maybe what it still is). So do American people believe that the world is binary? It's true or false, it's black or white, it's good or bad? This manichean view is so childish...

I have always much admired the US, its culture, its history even though not always accepting its foreign policy (in Chile, South America in general, in the Middle East, in Southern Asia) but its policy is not its people. I was shocked by the reactions out there in the US... Basically it's either "walk with us" or die. Wow...

Plus, it seems that today, the US is adopting the politics Germany, Russia & France were suggesting before the Iraq Invasion. I would really love to see Fox News journalists remembering what they told the American people. I still have a mpeg showing D. Rumsfeld with S. Hussein. I guess they do not know about the Internet... or don't want to, as good journalists should do, investigate a little more... As M. Moore said, real Friends have the guts to say when one is wrong. That what we did. We thought you were wrong going into this war. So that makes France and Germany the enemy of the US? Come on...

Anyway, back to the subject. Even though we are still really disappointed with all that happened (I personally canceled my second trip to the US this summer because the friends we were going with were kinda scared of all this French bashing) we do know that the American government does not represent the population (even though I never thought American people could believe all these lies - Bush, Pentagon, medias - so easily) and deep in our hearts we still believe America is a great country. It will just take some time to be confident again that, after all, America does care about what is next to her,.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Coimbrap
do American people believe that the world is binary? [...] we do know that the American government does not represent the population [...] (even though I never thought American people could believe all these lies - Bush, Pentagon, medias - so easily)

what you're seeing is the result of the american people being scared. the feeling of helplessness due to 9/11 has largely faded, imo, but it catalyzed an "us vs. them" feeling here.

i am ashamed by a number of things the bush administration has done, including its treatment of traditional allies, france and germany especially.

i am also ashamed by anyone in the US who can so easily tell a french-bashing joke or who can support an effort to kill all "towel heads." i know those people are out there, but, happily, i see far fewer of them than i do people who do recognize huge gray areas, who do feel terrible about the US' current standing in the world, who feel bush went about this in completely the wrong manner.

whether bush gets re-elected depends directly on how scared people are, imo. another terrorist attack, convienently timed in late summer, would probably seal is re-election. but i'd be a fool to imply causality, right?

[Coimbrap]

I'm kind of relieved of everything I have read in this topic...

We do also think that what fuels everything is the fear you have from everything... and you should.
Last time I went to the US for my honeymoon in 2000 I was astonished by your television. It was nothing but real TV shows, Cops shows, Violence and murder. The boob of Janet Jackson was a splendid view comparing to that ;-)

I guess that the problem will linger on since there's a kind of American bashing now all around Europe. I can't tell you the number of Anti American jokes I receive from all my contacts (UK, Germany, Italy, Spain or Russia)

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
We have an obligation to stop the sytematic eradication of an entire race or ethnic group.

We have an obligation to protect our citizenry from foreign attack in their homeland.

Beyond that, no matter how nasty the dictator is to his people or what he's done to your daddy or how much oil he's sitting on, there is no justification for waging war.

By "we" do you mean the US or the world?


Lethal

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Coimbrap

Last time I went to the US for my honeymoon in 2000 I was astonished by your television. It was nothing but real TV shows, Cops shows, Violence and murder. The boob of Janet Jackson was a splendid view comparing to that ;-)


a great example of such retardedness is the MPAA (the group that gives ratings to movies). the guidelines allow a lot of violence to be shown to younger viewers, but the instant a boob shows up or there's even a hint of drug use, the ratings become much more harsh.

I can't tell you the number of Anti American jokes I receive from all my contacts (UK, Germany, Italy, Spain or Russia)

i'm really curious to hear them, but i wouldn't recommend posting them here. might start a riot.

[Coimbrap]

i'm really curious to hear them, but i wouldn't recommend posting them here. might start a riot.
If you want I can send some to you... :D

Anyway, what is the general feeling about Fox News over there in the US?

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Coimbrap
Anyway, what is the general feeling about Fox News over there in the US?

Uh-oh. Now we're really in for it.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Coimbrap
Anyway, what is the general feeling about Fox News over there in the US?

That depends on who you ask. Some see it as the antidote to the 'liberal media', and a 'Fair and Balanced' look at the news. Others see it as a puppet of the Bush administration and no better than right-wing AM talk radio here. Generally I see it as a right-of-center (our center, not a European one) news organization, with a penchant for sensationalism with issues that matter to conservatives.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Coimbrap
If you want I can send some to you... :D


please

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
By "we" do you mean the US or the world?


Lethal

Wow, an old thread brought back to life.

When I said that, I was referring to the US specifically, but I suppose it could apply the same to any nation.