Xbox and PowerPC Speculation

[MacRumors]

eeTimes (http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20031103S0060) provides from more details about the upcoming PowerPC chip that was announced to power the upcoming Xbox revision (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031103121349.shtml).

One analyst, Rick Doherty, provides speculation that "IBM is likely to modify its most advanced 'G5' PowerPC silicon.... reducing the cache and cutting power consumption". The Xbox 2 is predicted to be announced at the International Consumer Electronics Show in January 2004, with shipments in 2004/2005.

According to eWeek, the relative ease of converting an Xbox into a cheap/low-end PC may be part of the decision to switch from Intel.

[ratspg]

i never liked xbox? but maybe xbox "two" will be way better or something? great power, but games= no power.

[tazznb]

"According to eWeek, the relative ease of converting an Xbox into a cheap/low-end PC may be part of the decision to switch from Intel."

I was always told it was a "blessing" to have this trait in being able to build your own. :eek:

[alset]

I wonder if this may lead to rumors of M$ developing Windows for PPC? If nothing else, I'll be happy to see IBM make some money from this.

Dan

edit: I wonder if OS X hacks will come along, similar to the Linux on XBox hacks?

[MaurOS X]

If the Xbox converts in a PC, what would be the operative system? It could not be Windows, nor Mac OS X...

On the other side, the processor war could have another chapter...

[tazznb]

It may make it easier to port games to Apple's platform, plus show that the powerpc chip is actually good for gaming, too.

[johnnyjibbs]

Xbox 2 in 2004/2005? Bit early isn't it?

Cue another thread about OS X for Xbox/Windows for Macs rumours again...!

[Macco]

Why is it such a bad thing that people are able to use the Xbox as a PC? Is it because people were running Linux, not Windows on it? Linux has already been ported to the PPC platform, so it couldn't be too difficult for people to adapt it in the same way to the next Xbox.

[danielgrenell]

so could the xbox2 be made into a low end mac?

[iLilana]

I should say it again...

[Powerbook G5]

How about a dual G5 Xbox...

[cryptochrome]

Originally posted by Macco
Why is it such a bad thing that people are able to use the Xbox as a PC?

Generally game console manufacturers (Sony, MS, Nintendo) LOSE money on the console, but make up for it in the licensing fees they collect for the games. So if someone is converting the console into a cheap PC and not buying games, they're actually losing money. AFAIK.

[Sun Baked]

Watch it'll probably be a version of the G3 with a custom memory controller -- and a ATI graphics chip.

Porting the current APIs to the PPC and using the current x86 endianess should keep people (either PC or Mac) from using the box as a poormans computer.

Wonder if it'll have PPC to x86 emulation...

[JoeRadar]

Originally posted by Macco
Why is it such a bad thing that people are able to use the Xbox as a PC?
I was under the impression that MS was losing money on each XBox system sold, but they hoped to make it up selling games. If you are running Linux, you are not buying XBox games.

So lets all hurt MS and buy lots of XBoxes but not buy any games. ;)

[greenstork]

Given that Xbox v1 can be hacked to be a run-of-the-mill PC, there is every reason to believe that the IBM version can be hacked to run OS X.

Think about it, OS X actually running on a Microsoft product. Now I imagine Bill Gates will have smoke coming out of his ears when he hears this.

Granted it won't be as much of a costly hack for Microsoft given the relatively small percentage of the population that uses x86 architecture vs PPC. Even Steve-O will be a little peeved if people start buying $200 computers with a G5 capable of running OS X. But running OS X on a M$ product, Mac users have to appreciate the sweet irony of this.

[JoeRadar]

Originally posted by danielgrenell
so could the xbox2 be made into a low end mac?
Maybe this is a secret plan by MS to hurt iMac and PowerMac sales. :p

[JoeRadar]

Originally posted by MaurOS X
If the Xbox converts in a PC, what would be the operative system? It could not be Windows, nor Mac OS X...
Windows NT used to run on PPC. No reason MS couldn't get the current Windows-derived OS for XBox on a PowerPC.

[JoeRadar]

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Xbox 2 in 2004/2005? Bit early isn't it?
Depends in part on when Sony plans to release PS3 (not the current PS2-derived PSX). MS will want to be ahead or very close the the Sony release.

I think (not sure) XBox is just about 2 years old, so a 3 year turn on hardware might be reasonable. If they want to make the Xmas season, however, they are going to have to announce soon.

Do you think XBox 2 will be an all-in-one capability -- Tivo, DVD player and recorder, media station for pictures and songs, ...? If so, MS may want to capture the emerging PVR/DVD-recorder market.

[sethypoo]

Will someone explain to me why you can't put OS X on an XBox?

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by sethypoo
Will someone explain to me why you can't put OS X on an XBox? If they keep with the current endianess of the x86, then they would most likely mutilate any attempt to run OS X on the machine.

That and they'd probably may make a machine that doesn't conform to the PowerPC Platform spec -- like the current Linux PPCs.

And the bootROM would need to be rewritten along with the supplying a ROM file (or whatever OS Xs current name is for it) patch for the Xbox.

[Gyroscope]

They are saying over @ slashdot that this may indeed be an stripped down version of G5 (PPC 970). :) Now wouldn't that be cool.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by Macrumors
According to eWeek, the relative ease of converting an Xbox into a cheap/low-end PC may be part of the decision to switch from Intel.
This just goes to show how little MS understands Linux... Changing processors isn't gong to stop people from buying Xboxes as linux nodes.

People port Linux *because of* the challenge. There'll be an Xbox2 port of Linux available before the unit even ships...

At first I thought they might be worried about people running Windows on the thing, but then realized they could easily prevent installing on Xbox hardware, or deny support for certain components. Must be a Linux problem.

The only way MS can win this if if they ship the units at cost so they don't lose money for each box, then just stop fighting it.

[Sol]

Wow, IBM has really made a name for itself in the games console business. Having said that, something stinks about this announcement. Why would Microsoft go into the trouble of porting Direct X to the PPC platform? Their experience is with the x86 CPUs and considering that the X-Box was the most powerful next-gen console it is all the more confusing that Intel would be abandoned like this.

I would not be surprised if Microsoft worked with IBM for several months then promptly dropped the PPC in favour of an Intel CPU. They would do this and use the knowledge gained to benefit the development of the X-Box's follow-up.

If Microsoft sticks with the PPC for their future console, I wonder if we will ever see Direct X or even Windows for Apple hardware. It may sound far fetched but Microsoft must consider the possibility that OS X will one day run on x86 hardware.

[Ruthless]

Okay, major issuses here. I don't know about anyone else, but I am getting really tired of apple trying to branch out. This may sound selfish, but who's not happy with apple the way it is now. First itunes, then rumors about ichat, now rumors about a MICROSOFT product using an APPLE chip. This is lame. The main reason for my ranting and complaining is that the more people apple attracts the cheaper the computers will get forcing apple to make them less quality and also uppin the numbers of jerks writing viruses, more pop-ups,adware and other things windows users have to deal with. Serioulsy though steve jobs ain't poor so y not show some respect and keep apple to the pople who use computers for the right reason.
THANKS,
replys apprecitaed,
Ruthless

[dongmin]

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Xbox 2 in 2004/2005? Bit early isn't it? Wasn't the Xbox released 2 years ago. 2005 would make it 3-4 years. Doesn't seem so short.

One analyst, Rick Doherty, provides speculation that "IBM is likely to modify its most advanced 'G5' PowerPC silicon.... reducing the cache and cutting power consumption".This analyst is probably just talking out of his ass, but do you guys think there's any chance this cut-down 970 will make its way into the PowerBooks and iMacs?

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by JoeRadar
Maybe this is a secret plan by MS to hurt iMac and PowerMac sales. :p

You laugh, but I really wouldn't be surprised...

[macphoria]

I bet Microsoft's Xbox utilizing IBM's processor (G5 variant?) must hurt someone's -cough- Intel -cough- big ego.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by Ruthless
Okay, major issuses here. I don't know about anyone else, but I am getting really tired of apple trying to branch out. This may sound selfish, but who's not happy with apple the way it is now. First itunes, then rumors about ichat, now rumors about a MICROSOFT product using an APPLE chip. This is lame. The main reason for my ranting and complaining is that the more people apple attracts the cheaper the computers will get forcing apple to make them less quality and also uppin the numbers of jerks writing viruses, more pop-ups,adware and other things windows users have to deal with. Serioulsy though steve jobs ain't poor so y not show some respect and keep apple to the pople who use computers for the right reason.
THANKS,
replys apprecitaed,
Ruthless

Uh... it's IBM's chip, actually...
The G5 system chip is Apples and probably can't be sourced to anyone else, but the 970 is IBMs and they can probably give it to whoever they please.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by Ruthless
Okay, major issuses here. I don't know about anyone else, but I am getting really tired of apple trying to branch out. This may sound selfish, but who's not happy with apple the way it is now. First itunes, then rumors about ichat, now rumors about a MICROSOFT product using an APPLE chip. This is lame. The main reason for my ranting and complaining is that the more people apple attracts the cheaper the computers will get forcing apple to make them less quality and also uppin the numbers of jerks writing viruses, more pop-ups,adware and other things windows users have to deal with. Serioulsy though steve jobs ain't poor so y not show some respect and keep apple to the pople who use computers for the right reason.
THANKS,
replys apprecitaed,
Ruthless

It's not an Apple chip, it's an IBM chip. I also think your assertions about adware are unfounded, Apple has never integrated this stuff into their software, stop trolling.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by macphoria
I bet Microsoft's Xbox utilizing IBM's processor (G5 variant?) must hurt someone's -cough- Intel -cough- big ego.

Don't underestimate the impact of this as a negotiating tactic with Intel. Just like AMD is used.

[Ruthless]

well dude u have to agree that the more people using apples the worse. they would lower prices and lower quality.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by alset
I wonder if this may lead to rumors of M$ developing Windows for PPC? If nothing else, I'll be happy to see IBM make some money from this.


This won't mean Windows on PPC. The whole *point* it seems is to prevent people from using these as general purpose computers...

[Analog Kid]

ARgh, can't find the post, but somewhere someone asked if this could mean more games getting written to OpenGL and I was just going to point out that if i remember right, Microsoft bought the OpenGL assets from SGI-- they own it.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by Ruthless
well dude u have to agree that the more people using apples the worse. they would lower prices and lower quality.

No I don't, and no it doesn't. A lot depends on how Apple's attitude and approach would change given a larger market share or monopolistic control-- and that would be a different thread.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by Sol
Wow, IBM has really made a name for itself in the games console business. Having said that, something stinks about this announcement. Why would Microsoft go into the trouble of porting Direct X to the PPC platform? Their experience is with the x86 CPUs and considering that the X-Box was the most powerful next-gen console it is all the more confusing that Intel would be abandoned like this.

I would not be surprised if Microsoft worked with IBM for several months then promptly dropped the PPC in favour of an Intel CPU. They would do this and use the knowledge gained to benefit the development of the X-Box's follow-up.

If Microsoft sticks with the PPC for their future console, I wonder if we will ever see Direct X or even Windows for Apple hardware. It may sound far fetched but Microsoft must consider the possibility that OS X will one day run on x86 hardware.

It is just possible that MS can't fit a hotter Pentium into an enclosure they want to-- or they think all the noisy air blowers would ruin the game play.

It's also possible that you're right-- tease IBM for a while and then leave. Put the pressure on Intel, get a look into IBMs fabs, maybe rile up a little angst among your competitors who are also using IBM as a source, get the Apple rumor boards all in a tizzy...

If that's the case, IBM would have no one to blame but themselves... It's not like this would be the first time that would have happened. Not really the second time either...

[foniks2020]

Seriously, there's no way you could run OS X on any machine not made by Apple. PPC doesn't equal OS X. If it did then there would be any number of "beige box" PPC motherboards out there to run OS X on... think about it.

On the other hand you could possibly run Darwin and X11 or PPC Linux with some firmware hacks in place (most likely required... to connect with other hardware). Some OS X apps could run under Darwin if compiled without Quartz GUI in place but at that point why not just run Linux?

[solvs]

I dunno, I don't think we'll see an xBox using a G5. I could be wrong, but still this doesn't sound right. You'd think they could just work with AMD or something, like they did before they went with Intel. Maybe using an IBM interconnect and cheap, low power AMD chips? Wasn't AMD working with IBM in Fishkill? Wouldn't using native x86 be better than some kind of emulation? Then again, if that were the case, they could have just used an AMD/nVidia chipset of something.

I'm just saying that this is just commentary based on speculation. And we all know how accurate analysts are...

Would be pretty funny if it were true though, and people put Linux in it anyway, like you can already do with the PS2.

[foniks2020]

My question is whether these new stripped down, less cache less power hungry PPC 970 chips could make their way into Powerbooks?

Now that IBM has a big consumer for low-power PPC 970s this seems like a possibility.

[suzerain]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
ARgh, can't find the post, but somewhere someone asked if this could mean more games getting written to OpenGL and I was just going to point out that if i remember right, Microsoft bought the OpenGL assets from SGI-- they own it.


This isn't true.

Microsoft bought certain IP from SGI related to OpenGL. Enough to potentially be a pain in the ass to the OpenGL consortium, but your assertion of anyone "owning" OpenGL is inaccurate.

There is intellectual property as part of OpenGL that is owned by several companies.

[Sol]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
ARgh, can't find the post, but somewhere someone asked if this could mean more games getting written to OpenGL and I was just going to point out that if i remember right, Microsoft bought the OpenGL assets from SGI-- they own it.

Whoever is giving you information is taking you for a ride. Microsoft does not own Open GL.

[Flynnstone]

Assuming IBM and M$ are not blowing smoke up you know where.
M$ wants a low cost processor, but more important is a low cost system. Perhaps IBM has something up their sleeve, like a PPC970x on 90nm design rules. 90nm to get size, cost and power down.
They probably don't want a high end system controller like on the G5 series machines. Single processor only.
So perhaps a 970 variant with on board memory controller. Local bus (hypertransport-ish) to graphics controller (ATI I think) and Hypertransport to IO.
Not only would make a great Xbox 2 but mighty fine iMac (consumer line) as well !

[Ruthless]

okay, heres my opinion, xbox 2 will not even use a ibm chip.. i read on ign.com (very reliable) that they did confirm a semicondtodor deal with ibm but ibm could be making anything (hard drive - mother board) there is absolutly no reaon for microsoft to break there long going friendship with intel. And the only reason they would, would be to stop piracy and hacking and using the xbox as a omputer but a wonderful remedy to this problem would be to have intel make a chip exclusivley for xbox. Plus y would microsoft switch processor makers if they did they would loose direct x THEY INVENTED DRECTX!!!!!

[danbirchall]

Originally posted by alset
I wonder if this may lead to rumors of M$ developing Windows for PPC?

Rumors are supposed to be about things that haven't happened yet, aren't they? The PPC was one of the original platforms Windows NT ran on -- along with the 80486, Pentium, Pentium Pro, DEC Alpha, and MIPS R4x00.

I've got a Windows NT Workstation 4.0 CD somewhere around here, and it's printed riight on the front that it includes code for all those architectures. I used it to install NT on my G5. (No, not as the boot OS! It's running under Bochs.)

Kinda funny that M$ supported all those architectures, then dropped them one by one... they could've given a lot more of a fight to Linux.

[Phil Of Mac]

970's? In a $200 console? Don't bet on it.

[jonapete2001]

They did this same thing to AMD back when the first xbox came out. It was anounced that the xbox would use a amd duron chip then at the very last possible minute MS switched to Intel Celeron/P3 variant.

Besided i read somewhere that MS will be using the new AMD 64 chip in the xbox. (just kidding). but it would make so much more sense for them to use the amd 64 cpu over some variant of the g5. If the graphics card issue can be over come the use of another x86 would support previous xbox titles if they wanted it to.

Unless IBM is secretly developing a intel killing x86 chip, IBM will never show up in xbox.

[crenz]

Originally posted by danbirchall
I used it to install NT on my G5. (No, not as the boot OS! It's running under Bochs.)

Which means that you are actually running the x86 version, since Bochs emulates an x86 processor...

[kristianm]

I don't think they really loose money on hardware Xbox sales anymore. Try to look up the price of similar components yourself, they are not expensive.

And I am quite sure that MS gets better deals than me.

[TMay]

MS would be making a smart move by going with the PPC for a game machine. For one, they get a customizable architecture, with a full 64 bit PPC core, which could include Altivec, memory controller, DSP, network processor, and even graphics from IBM partner nvidia. More than likely it will be very low power consumption compared to an x86 variant. Moreover, since IBM makes the 405LP PPC, it would be possible to create a handheld game machine, without going to another development system, a bonus for developers (why hasn't Apple used this chip yet?).

IBM's design automation, embedded experience, and the fully scalable and low power PPC architecture may be the reasons that so many of the console manufacturers are partnered with IBM.

[Eckrall]

Just to point out some information that I dont think has already been mentioned...

IBM Produce the PPC chips used in thier own range of servers and the new apple kit. AMD have signed a contract to produce their new chips at the Fishkill plant when they start to move down to lower die sizes and a joint R&D in some areas.

ATI has been signed as the new GPU provider for the XBOX2 in a move away from Nvidia. ATI already produce the GPU for the Gamecube which uses a ppc chip designed and built by....IBM.

Does anyone else see a link here???

Makes more sense than a Ath/Opt - ATI link, though personal preference would prefer a Opt - Nvidia based machine, but i cant have everything can I?

Eck

[Sabenth]

ATI has been signed as the new GPU provider for the XBOX2 in a move away from Nvidia. ATI already produce the GPU for the Gamecube which uses a ppc chip designed and built by....IBM.

Does anyone else see a link here???

noticed that straight away DONT YOU GUYS AND GURLS PLAY GAMES.. LOL ..

If and only if M$ Want to use ibm chips then well its good for ibm aint it ...

IBM SEEMS TO BE THE WINNER AT THE MOMENT..


1 APPLE
2 THERE OWN SYSTEMS
3 NINTENDO
4 XBOX 2 RUMOR!!!

:)

[hvfsl]

Theres no reason M$ wont have the Xbox2 use PPC chips, but then that will mean ALL the next gen consoles will be using PPC chips from IBM. Since Sony and Nintendo have already comfirmed to be using IBM chips in PS3 and GC2.

Also, Windows has been in games consoles before. The Dreamcast used a 200Mhz NEC Risc chip and ran Direct X 6 and Windows CE. I expect the reason for the switch is so that the Xbox2 cant be used as another cheap PC. Although, people may just run PPC Linux on it.

I dont see any point in M$ porting Windows to run on Macs, why would anyone want it. VPC is good enough for most programs, but if you want anything faster, get a PC. People still wont be able to run PC games on their Macs if Windows was ported.

[singletrack]

Perhaps Microsoft could port Direct-X to PPC. I wonder if we'd see that on Macs? It would make porting games from the PC to the Mac a lot simpler but might possibly see the death of OpenGL.

[rasha]

I only see good for Apple if IBM supplies the chips for the next generation consoles. Apple has partnered with IBM so I am assuming the experience and knowledge along with technological achivements by IBM console chip manufacturing will be benificial to PPC chip development for Apple. It may also motivate IBM to keep pushing the envelope with PPC technology having multiple coustomers other than Apple.

I am not sure what is going on with IBM but they look like they may provide all the next gen system chips along with ATI doing the GPUs.

What about Motorola? Maybe their PPC embeded tech will show up in cell phone and handheld gaming machines.

[iMeowbot]

Originally posted by alset
I wonder if this may lead to rumors of M$ developing Windows for PPC?

There is Windows for PowerPC... or at least there was, up through NT 4. It would probably still be available, if there was much demand for it.

[Flynnstone]

Originally posted by TMay
Moreover, since IBM makes the 405LP PPC, it would be possible to create a handheld game machine, without going to another development system, a bonus for developers (why hasn't Apple used this chip yet?).


If Apple was making a new Newton then the 405LP could be a good choice. It could be used for smart appliances like MS's spot things. But it may not be good for more. I use the 405 GP in a system running linux.