Who Elects These Creatures?

[Desertrat]

Alas, poor Maryland! The mouth-breathers are in full song!

They want serial numbers on bullets, to match a serial number inside the cartridge case!

From http://mlis.state.md.us/2008rs/bills/hb/hb0517f.pdf you can scroll about halfway down to 5-603, (A) (2) for the absolute idiocy. Futility exemplified.

"Each serial number is engraved in a manner that allows for a substantial likelihood that the serial number may be identified after ammunition discharge and bullet impact..."

What sort of strange thought process sees this as anywhere near rational? Can't put the number on the front, obviously; nor on the sides which are distorted by travel down the barrel. The base? We're supposed to believe that a law can repeal the metallic properties of lead? It won't suffer any deformation from temperatures around 2,000 degrees, and pressures from 12,000 to 35,000 pounds per square inch?

Okay, so we repeal the "lead laws" of nature. I note in passing that revolvers do not eject the cartridge case, so numbering the inside of the case solves nothing. Nobody knows how to do that sort of thing, anyway.

Just for .22 cartridges, at 50 per box, divide a billion by 50. That's how many discrete serial numbers would be required just for that one sort, based on historic annual sales. I have no idea how many tens of millions of boxes of other pistol cartridges would require these discrete numbers.

So how do you come up with a code that will physically fit an object that's a quarter-inch to one-half inch in diameter, with this many separate numbers?

Make me believe that criminals will worry one iota about such laws. Make me believe that it won't hassle ONLY the honest citizen. Make me believe that legislators have any concern for the right of honest citizens to be left alone to mind their own affairs in peace and quiet. Or honest business people to not be saddled with more wasted paperwork effort. Or any concern for the cost to the taxpayer for the wasted time and effort of more bureaucrats and more paperwork.

This is merely a way to say, "We don't do any good with gun-control laws, so we'll make it impossible to sell ammunition in Maryland." And it's off to the courtroom for the lawsuit concerning restraint of trade...

People actually vote for these sorts of minds? And even re-elect them? Elect them to create more paperwork and thus more dead trees?

God save the Republic...

'Rat

[Everythingisnt]

The serial numbers inside cartridge cases are even now rather ineffective, as well as the serial numbers on guns. It's incredibly easy for anyone who knows what they're doing to remove those numbers and thus void the entire point. I don't see how serial numbers on BULLETS will help things.

[Roger1]

What if I own a shotgun, and use birdshot??
:D

[mactastic]

What if I own a shotgun, and use birdshot??
:DThen it's a good thing there are an awful lot of numbers out there... :p

[Daveman Deluxe]

mactastic: you clearly don't understand maths.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MiMWJ1xBo8w

"The largest number is about forty-five billion, although mathematicians suspect that there may be even larger numbers!"

[stevegmu]

The Dems in MD were emboldened after the 'fine' people of the state chose to elect M. O'Malley, rather than re-elect Gov. R. Ehrlich. Since then, Maryland has become a sanctuary city for illegals, has tried to pass helmet laws for children walking on public sidewalks and those playing soccer, tried to outlaw smoking on public streets, restaurants, and for those who live in townhouses, and has let PG County become a laughing stock for its corruption, and crime. I'm surprised they just don't try to outlaw firearms entirely.

[Everythingisnt]

mactastic: you clearly don't understand maths.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MiMWJ1xBo8w

"The largest number is about forty-five billion, although mathematicians suspect that there may be even larger numbers!"

haha.. hahaha.. too bad the people who made this law haven't watched that.

[ham_man]

Thank God the good people of Maryland elected the esteemed and honorable Thomas Carcetti governor!

[Gelfin]

Hmm... a janitorial job at a pistol range and a box of five hundred lead fishing weights, please.

Why in the world do we allow politicians to pretend they know anything about security?

[Cromulent]

mactastic: you clearly don't understand maths.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MiMWJ1xBo8w

"The largest number is about forty-five billion, although mathematicians suspect that there may be even larger numbers!"

Hahaha. I love it :).

[Desertrat]

Don't laugh. It's worse than you think. This sort of legislation has been introduced in fifteen states! There's a national organization, with a website:

http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm

Me being a numbers guy: Assume ALL handgun homicides take, say, three bullets each. That's some 36,000 shots fired per year. That's 720 boxes of 50 rounds, per year. Now, we know there are more than 720 murderous crooks, right? So it's obvious that no crook does all that much shooting in any given year. A box of ammo is gonna last Our Hero for a long, long time. So he lays in a couple of boxes and it's ten or fifteen years before the first numbered bullet shows up in some Late Lamented. And, 99.99% odds are that you can't read any number...

I'm underwhelmed.

"Ignorance is no excuse for a law." -- Tamara ( http://www.booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com )

[Iscariot]

If one wants to commit a murder, what's to stop one from simply using one of the billions of bullets manufactured before they passed the bill?

[miloblithe]

The design of the ammunition coding technology laser engraving system will allow law enforcement personnel to identify the bullet code in cases where as little as 20% of the bullet base remains intact after recovery. Since bullets are designed to keep the base solid and in its original configuration, the likelihood of ammunition codes remaining legible after recovery is very high. Law enforcement testing has already shown a 99% success rate in identifying the ammunition code after bullet recovery.

http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Technology.htm

[takao]

http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Technology.htm

well if they have so high success numbers then why not ?

perhaps it makes some people more responsible in keeping ammunition safe, make somebody think twice about doing something bad and catch some idiots commiting crimes


and paperwork issues ? seriously how difficult is it to scan a box with a barcode scanner and enter a few information ...
if you buy ammunition that often then i would think your problem isn't paperwork

also on serial numbers: you don't have to span them across all types.. after all you can start at 0 every single ammunition type... or to make the number space even bigger simply use an additional manufacturer code to split it up further

also where does it say it has to use numbers ? if you take ciphers and letters you get an aweful lot more


let's say you have 12 digits (repeated a few times or whatever)

with numbers it's

1 trillion serial numbers
not really that much

with numbers + letters (26+10= 36^12 instead of 10^12) it's

4.738.381.338.320.000.000
serial numbers .. or in words:

4.7 quintillion (US wording):
still sure that US american fire more rounds than that ?

and if you think that's still not enough simply add lower/uppercase distinction

that's 62^12
or 3.226.266.762.400.000.000.000 or 3.2 sextillions


with that you could easily reduce the amount of digits down from 12 to somehow manageable levels to fit the serial more often on it ... you simply have to add more different symbols

[Full of Win]

well if they have so high success numbers then why not ?

perhaps it makes some people more responsible in keeping ammunition safe, make somebody think twice about doing something bad and catch some idiots commiting crimes


and paperwork issues ? seriously how difficult is it to scan a box with a barcode scanner and enter a few information ...
if you buy ammunition that often then i would think your problem isn't paperwork

also on serial numbers: you don't have to span them across all types.. after all you can start at 0 every single ammunition type... or to make the number space even bigger simply use an additional manufacturer code to split it up further

also where does it say it has to use numbers ? if you take ciphers and letters you get an aweful lot more


let's say you have 12 digits (repeated a few times or whatever)

with numbers it's

1 trillion serial numbers
not really that much

with numbers + letters (26+10= 36^12 instead of 10^12) it's

4.738.381.338.320.000.000
serial numbers .. or in words:

4.7 quintillion (US wording):
still sure that US american fire more rounds than that ?

and if you think that's still not enough simply add lower/uppercase distinction

that's 62^12
or 3.226.266.762.400.000.000.000 or 3.2 sextillions


with that you could easily reduce the amount of digits down from 12 to somehow manageable levels to fit the serial more often on it ... you simply have to add more different symbols


Saying this from the land of Glock. :eek:

Why not: Becase the UN (or US .gov) will have a database to use when they want to round up the firearms. I'll have lost all mine in a deep sea boating accident by then, but still, I don't want the feds to even know that I have them.

[takao]

Saying this from the land of Glock. :eek:

a shovel company who just happens to make pistols ?
make that Steyr-Mannlicher

Why not: Becase the UN (or US .gov) will have a database to use when they want to round up the firearms. I'll have lost all mine in a deep sea boating accident by then, but still, I don't want the feds to even know that I have them.

i'm gonna remember you when it's time to send the Totenkopf-Troops out again ;)

[live4ever]

Don't all the guns in the U.S.A. have DNA tagging of bullets yet (like in Judge Dredd or was it Demolition Man)?

[Desertrat]

takao, you have to put this on the back of a bullet! Space! Survivability under temperature and pressure! We're not talking some sort of magic unobtainum as the material, okay?

Then you get into the millions of dollars of cost for this wondrous equipment to "etch" these numbers.

And after you've done all this, it won't help. How will you know ahead of time that some crook's ammo is "registered"? Or anybody elses? Stop everybody on the street, "Sir, do you have a gun? I need to disassemble one round to see if your ammunition is properly registered."? Bat guano.

Remember, you're dealing with millions of dollars' worth of existing ammo, and billions of rounds of ammo per year.

Add in the tens of thousands of reloaders, and the thousands who cast their own bullets.

miloblithe, I've been messing with guns and ammo for many, many decades. Some things are just flat-out not believable. I can see a limited fashion for a few deeply etched or engraved codings to remain after firing, on special materials. But plain old lead? Duh?

And the vast majority of our 12,000 handgun homicides per year are already solved--without magic.

I'm reminded very much of the 1920s effort on the part of the Tennessee legislature to pass a law making Pi = 3.00000000000000000000...

[fridgeymonster3]

Basically everyone here is saying the legislation is idiotic, mostly because it will probably be ineffective. I agree, if serial numbers can be gotten of rid of now than they mostly likely can no matter what. However, if everything has a serial number on it (which does seem a little ridiculous) than maybe something will fall through the cracks. If the legislation saves 10% more lives, by just catching criminals before their next crime than I am all for it. Why not?

[Roger1]

Don't forget trying to put all those numbers on birdshot :p

If I ever buy a gun, I guess I'll make my own ammo.

[fridgeymonster3]

How will you know ahead of time that some crook's ammo is "registered"?

I think it would be easy to tell who purchased which bullets - just have the serial number on the receipt like they do for expensive purchases (i.e. Apple computers). Than the person's name would be logged into the computer along side that serial number, and all each store would have to do is upload that list into a national database every week or so.

Of course, the person who buys the bullets might not be responsible for where they show up, or others could buy them just to resell them, etc., etc. But if a law saves peoples lives, than that's great.

[hulugu]

...Of course, the person who buys the bullets might not be responsible for where they show up, or others could buy them just to resell them, etc., etc. But if a law saves peoples lives, than that's great.

This, more so than 'Rat's objections, strikes me as the major problem with this plan. There's no way to track rounds once they're sold.

Furthermore, how does this save lives? This is a forensic tool, meaning that in order for this to be useful, you are digging the rounds out of a body or from the scene of a murder.

The impracticalities of such a system seem too numerous.

@'Rat, just an idea, but isn't the rifling and firing pin strike of each gun fairly unique? Maybe each gun could be fired before sale and then placed into a registry. In this way, a specific gun could be tracked from point-of-sale to the bullet in a murder scene?
I can think of a problem searching this kind of database (not to mention the numerous guns already out there), but what do you think of this?

[takao]

takao, you have to put this on the back of a bullet! Space! Survivability under temperature and pressure! We're not talking some sort of magic unobtainum as the material, okay?

so that's why they very likely put the number on it multiple times and in multiple spots


Then you get into the millions of dollars of cost for this wondrous equipment to "etch" these numbers.

for companies who very likely made billions while still using the same equipment from 50 years ago it's hardly breaking their banks

you know in europe they are laser marking eggs to trace them back to the farm it came from


And after you've done all this, it won't help. How will you know ahead of time that some crook's ammo is "registered"? Or anybody elses? Stop everybody on the street, "Sir, do you have a gun? I need to disassemble one round to see if your ammunition is properly registered."? Bat guano.

Remember, you're dealing with millions of dollars' worth of existing ammo, and billions of rounds of ammo per year.

obviously since they wouldn't put the serial in the cartridge as well ... that would be too much black magic right ?
so that million dollar equipment will produce billions of rounds per year and that for perhaps 20-30 years ? wow what an investment

sorry i don't remember that guns are required by law to be cheap ...

also it might reduce the time/cost needed for police investigations(isotope testing on bullets or whatever) and thus save some major _taxpayer_ money as you like it so much


Add in the tens of thousands of reloaders, and the thousands who cast their own bullets.

since in your own words there are billions of bullets sold every year this is a minority right ?

miloblithe, I've been messing with guns and ammo for many, many decades. Some things are just flat-out not believable. I can see a limited fashion for a few deeply etched or engraved codings to remain after firing, on special materials. But plain old lead? Duh?

there are more than 500 million of transistors on a chip the size of back of a bullet
15 years ago it broke the 1 million barrier
(actually there are chips with up to 1 billion of transistors like the itanium 2 .. and that was 3 years ago and expensive)

putting on a few numbers on a projectile is a lot less unbelievable for me

And the vast majority of our 12,000 handgun homicides per year are already solved--without magic.

actually other western countries have better ratios .. austria solves around 95% of all homicides... and that is average compared to some other countries in europe like switzerland and germany where it's around 98%

I'm reminded very much of the 1920s effort on the part of the Tennessee legislature to pass a law making Pi = 3.00000000000000000000...

well it's 2008 and i expect a little bit in terms of science than producing rounds like it is still 1900

after all it has been standard on everything bigger than machine-guns since decades .. i don't buy the "it's too complicated" excuse when pretty much every single thing you can get has a serial/production charge imprinted engraved

also please don't leave out that even ammunition has expiring dates (that's why we were able to generously fire fully automatic with exercise and real ammunition during army service ... we had plenty of ammunition to use before it was graded "unsafe")

[takao]

This, more so than 'Rat's objections, strikes me as the major problem with this plan. There's no way to track rounds once they're sold.

Furthermore, how does this save lives? This is a forensic tool, meaning that in order for this to be useful, you are digging the rounds out of a body or from the scene of a murder.

The impracticalities of such a system seem too numerous.

actually i think if you sign up with your name when buying ammunition you then would think twice before reselling it to sombody you hardly know or unsure how he will use it because after all you will be the one the police will visit
i think it can be an effective tool to un-encourage trading such stuff


@'Rat, just an idea, but isn't the rifling and firing pin strike of each gun fairly unique? Maybe each gun could be fired before sale and then placed into a registry. In this way, a specific gun could be tracked from point-of-sale to the bullet in a murder scene?
I can think of a problem searching this kind of database (not to mention the numerous guns already out there), but what do you think of this?

some manufacturer are doing this already ... afaik glock is required to do so when importing the guns into the US

that said it doesn't remove the problem of illegal guns the US has amassed and exported over the decades
(as said in another thread majority of illegal guns are coming from the US around here and not from the eastern block)

[stevegmu]

Since when do criminals use legally registered/purchased firearms/ammunition? Most criminals use stolen firearms.

[Desertrat]

takao, again--and again and again, I guess: That chip with all those transistors doesn't have to remain intact after enduring thousands of degrees of flame front against it, nor endure the thousands of pounds per square inch of pressure.

Age of ammo? I have some WW II surplus .45ACP ammo, "EC 43", which shoots just fine. I'm still shooting some .243 handloads from 1968. I inherited a .220 Swift from my father, with ammo he'd loaded in 1978--and it still hits a target at 400 yards.

Firing pin ID? What, there's no more sandpaper out there? Forensics on a barrel? You can change out a barrel on a semi-auto pistol in two minutes--if you waste time opening a beer and lighting a cigarette.

ID a cartridge case? Think "revolver".

The issue isn't at all crime control. It's people control to fit an anti-gun agenda. And it's stupid. Like I said early on, "restraint of trade".

'Rat

[hulugu]

...Firing pin ID? What, there's no more sandpaper out there? Forensics on a barrel? You can change out a barrel on a semi-auto pistol in two minutes--if you waste time opening a beer and lighting a cigarette....

Of course, anyone who's really knowledgeable about guns won't be caught by any reasonable attempt to tag or otherwise track a weapon. Someone like you with knowledge and the right tools, could probably construct your own weapon. However, you're not the average duck. Or 'rat.

My point was simply to create some trail between once a weapon was made or imported and when it was used in a crime. Illegal weapons won't fall into this either, but that's not the point.

I'm just kicking the can around, thinking about how to solve a forensic problem without creating some monstrosity that becomes unwieldy.

[takao]

takao, again--and again and again, I guess: That chip with all those transistors doesn't have to remain intact after enduring thousands of degrees of flame front against it, nor endure the thousands of pounds per square inch of pressure.

true but applying a 12 digit number is also a few magnitudes easier to make ?
they claim they can recognize 90%
you simply say "not possible"

sorry but look what has been deemed impossible 15 years ago and today is everyday life ?

heck the US army uses satellite controlled artillery shells and that is an aweful lot more difficult than appling a few numbers to a piece of metal

Age of ammo? I have some WW II surplus .45ACP ammo, "EC 43", which shoots just fine. I'm still shooting some .243 handloads from 1968. I inherited a .220 Swift from my father, with ammo he'd loaded in 1978--and it still hits a target at 400 yards.

good luck with that


Firing pin ID? What, there's no more sandpaper out there? Forensics on a barrel? You can change out a barrel on a semi-auto pistol in two minutes--if you waste time opening a beer and lighting a cigarette.


ID a cartridge case? Think "revolver".

how fast can you change out the barrel on a revolver ? ;)

actually the id the cartridge was additional to ID the bullet so you don't "have to open a round to look at a serial" like you complained

sure all this things won't stop some guy who is very knowledgeable about guns but it will make everything more traceable as it should be with guns

seriously why the hell can i trace back every single egg to the farm it came from while in the supermarket but with ammunition it's a ridiculous amount of work ? after all guns+ ammunition is a matter of life and death compared to let's say eggs and yoghurt cans

sooner or later guns will become more and more traceable that is a giving Desertrat no matter what ... i suspect that within the next 15-20 years it will be mandatory that every new gun has at least an RFID chip in it if not something more technical (gps,gsm etc.)

[Desertrat]

"heck the US army uses satellite controlled artillery shells and that is an aweful lot more difficult than appling a few numbers to a piece of metal."

Irrelevant, to begin with. What I'm talking about is the survivability of the numbers. The world supply of unobtainium is rather low.

If you re-read the opening post's proposed law, you find that the numbers are to be inside the cartridge case. Same problem.

During the runup to the Gun Control Act of 1968, the feds bruited about the number of an estimated 200 million firearms of all sorts in the U.S. I don't know about the period of 1968-1993, but the BATFE records indicate a sale of some 4+ million guns per year, steadily, from 1993 onward. Indicators are that the rate of 2008 sales will exceed 5 million. A good guesstimate is northward of 300 million.

RFIDs? Retrofit? $$$$$? Bat guano. Ain't gonna happen.

Enuf. I-10 is calling, and I have 1,400 miles to go. CUL.

'Rat

[takao]

Irrelevant, to begin with. What I'm talking about is the survivability of the numbers. The world supply of unobtainium is rather low.

you seriously believe that with todays technologies they can't find a way around it ?
especially with redundancy and error correction stuff ?


If you re-read the opening post's proposed law, you find that the numbers are to be inside the cartridge case. Same problem.

RFIDs? Retrofit? $$$$$? Bat guano. Ain't gonna happen.


RFIDs are used in supermarkets and logistics and inventory control more and more and compared to that numbers putting a 50 cent chip on every gun is no money at all

you don't need to retrofit guns all at the same time ... also you keep forgetting the amount of guns disappearing across the border, too broke up to use (yeah there are old guns still working but not forever ), or users simply forget about them, or they get scrapped etc.

after all simply make it a requirement for new guns ... sooner or later the problem of old guns will solve itself

sure metal detector companies are going to lobby against it ;)


that said compared to what your country spends on other security stuff even converting 250 million handguns to add a 50 cent chip is simply ridiculous

for christ sake your JSF replacement will have cost you 1 trillion dollars untill 2020 ... and that doesn't include the f22 ... new combat vehicle platform ? another 1 trillion dollar until 2025

yeah adding rfid chips to guns or creating a serial number system for bullets is going to break the arms industry bank accounts ...

[solvs]

The Dems in MD were emboldened after the 'fine' people of the state chose to elect M. O'Malley, rather than re-elect Gov. R. Ehrlich. Since then, Maryland has become a sanctuary city for illegals, has tried to pass helmet laws for children walking on public sidewalks and those playing soccer, tried to outlaw smoking on public streets, restaurants, and for those who live in townhouses, and has let PG County become a laughing stock for its corruption, and crime. I'm surprised they just don't try to outlaw firearms entirely.
I'm not saying this will be effective at all, but I don't suppose you have a link(s) for all of that?

Why not: Becase the UN (or US .gov) will have a database to use when they want to round up the firearms. I'll have lost all mine in a deep sea boating accident by then, but still, I don't want the feds to even know that I have them.
Neither the UN nor the US is going to come and take away your gun anytime soon. If they even could. And you call us paranoid.