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View Full Version : Just what does Apple Inc. have against Canada?


MacBytes
Apr 4, 2008, 12:42 PM
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Category: Apple Hardware
Link: Just what does Apple Inc. have against Canada? (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20080404134245)
Description:: Higher prices, later launches and still no iPhone - you might think Apple hates Canada. It's not quite that simple

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

shadowfax
Apr 4, 2008, 01:06 PM
Seems like they ought to have mentioned how terrible Rogers is. At least, that's all I ever read about on this forum.

mkrishnan
Apr 4, 2008, 01:11 PM
Seems like they ought to have mentioned how terrible Rogers is. At least, that's all I ever read about on this forum.

And how resistant they've been to the idea of unlimited data plans. Do we really need to whip that graph out again, and how much it costs to own and use a Blackberry in Canada? Or for that matter, the threats Canada made to impose blanket tariffs on MP3 players to respond to piracy, etc?

I'm sympathetic, and you know I <3 Canada and Canadians. But at the same time, Canada must always make its own balance and accept responsibility for its own decisions. Canada is welcome to create markets that court providers of products and services, but if they create markets that are not favorable, Canadians should complain to their lawmakers and not to companies who want to maintain a profitable business model.

caliguy
Apr 4, 2008, 01:18 PM
Animosity toward Canadians is nothing new. Has anyone seen the new South Park that aired last Wednesday?

JNB
Apr 4, 2008, 01:23 PM
Animosity toward Canadians is nothing new. Has anyone seen the new South Park that aired last Wednesday?

That is a running gag, but the episode was actually about the recent writer's strike, not Canadians (they're just a convenient stalking horse).

GoCubsGo
Apr 4, 2008, 01:31 PM
All this hate towards Canada....I happen to like Canadians....well one in particular but that's another tragic story.

caliguy
Apr 4, 2008, 01:35 PM
That is a running gag, but the episode was actually about the recent writer's strike, not Canadians (they're just a convenient stalking horse).

Hah, yeah, I know. I was sort of being sarcastic.

I'm in a public high school now, but ever since I was in a private middle school there's been joking about Canada, merely because of South Park I assume.

zombitronic
Apr 4, 2008, 01:41 PM
Hah, yeah, I know. I was sort of being sarcastic.

I'm in a public high school now, but ever since I was in a private middle school there's been joking about Canada, merely because of South Park I assume.

Canada jokes go back a long way, eh? What aboot Strange Brew?

slicecom
Apr 4, 2008, 01:41 PM
Like everyone else on earth except Ted Rogers himself (yes, Rogers employees Rogers just as much as the rest of us, if not more), but just over a month ago they started some sort of unlimited data plan for an additional $7 intended for phones bought through rogers only, but people have been using it successfully with their iPhones. Some see it as a test to see if their network can hold up to that kind of use.

mkrishnan
Apr 4, 2008, 01:44 PM
Like everyone else on earth except Ted Rogers himself (yes, Rogers employees Rogers just as much as the rest of us, if not more), but just over a month ago they started some sort of unlimited data plan for an additional $7 intended for phones bought through rogers only, but people have been using it successfully with their iPhones. Some see it as a test to see if their network can hold up to that kind of use.

Yeah, I thought I heard they had finally given in. But so wait, the entire package costs $7, and you can hack it to work with iPhones. And there's no data cap?

This article...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080211-rogers-unlimited-data-plan-not-so-unlimited-after-all.html

Suggests that the Blackberry plan (this plan apparently officially does not cover WM, Blackberry, etc... it sounds like the T-Zones plan that people on T-Mo hack into) doesn't actually have unlimited data, but only 1.5MB/mo (which is less than I typically used on my BB by a large amount).

This plan hasn't been around long enough to see if people are actually getting billed only $7 for what they do, has it? I have a feeling there is going to be yet another angry protest in a couple months! :p

HowEver
Apr 4, 2008, 01:47 PM
Like everyone else on earth except Ted Rogers himself (yes, Rogers employees Rogers just as much as the rest of us, if not more), but just over a month ago they started some sort of unlimited data plan for an additional $7 intended for phones bought through rogers only, but people have been using it successfully with their iPhones. Some see it as a test to see if their network can hold up to that kind of use.

No, no one yet knows how data on iPhones using that plan will be billed. The billing period closes at the end of April.

Roniniku
Apr 4, 2008, 02:08 PM
I'd love the iPhone here of course, but how much effort does Apple want to give to battle little companies using the iPhone name and deal with Rogers (the anti-Christ). The dream of a new cell provider (Apple Mobile-I wish) won't materialize since the only companies really providing service (Telus, Rogers and Bell) have the politicians in their back pocket. Apple's standalone products arrive here pretty much at the same time they are released in the U.S. but as the article says, things like the iTunes store, :apple:TV and the iPhone get into murky waters as soon as Apple has to deal with other companies. I think Apple would be happy to release things up here in concert with their release in the U.S. but for all the headaches they get, just for a population of about 40mil? I can't blame them; they have to make a buck.

SilvorX
Apr 4, 2008, 02:45 PM
I'm blaming Rogers on this, not Apple. If there had been a "Second" GSM carrier in Canada (not Rogers-Fido), we would have probably seen the iPhone in Canada.

I'm not looking forward to seeing how much the iPhone will cost in Canada. $499 with a 3 year contract for the low end model maybe? Ouch

Down with 3 year contracts!

macFanDave
Apr 4, 2008, 03:44 PM
Wasn't NAFTA supposed to fix all this?

pjarvi
Apr 4, 2008, 05:01 PM
Canadian Bacon = great food & a great movie!

NATO
Apr 4, 2008, 05:25 PM
I'm not looking forward to seeing how much the iPhone will cost in Canada. $499 with a 3 year contract for the low end model maybe? Ouch

Down with 3 year contracts!

You have 3 year mobile phone contracts in Canada?! Holy hell...

And to think I was complaining when companies here started pushing 18 month contracts instead of the 12 month ones we were used to. 3 Years is a long time to be tied down to a contract...

bdickson
Apr 4, 2008, 11:08 PM
I suspect we won't see anything to do with the iPhone in Canada until the auction of wireless spectrum is done in May. With rumours of T Mobile and ATT possibly buying the right be cell carriers in Canada, I'm hoping that these carriers, already teaming with the iPhone in other countries, will finally result in the phone in Canada. I'm sure this is what Apple is waiting for. Check out his link:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/tech/cellphones/wireless-spectrum.html

11thIndian
Apr 5, 2008, 08:16 AM
I suspect we won't see anything to do with the iPhone in Canada until the auction of wireless spectrum is done in May. With rumours of T Mobile and ATT possibly buying the right be cell carriers in Canada, I'm hoping that these carriers, already teaming with the iPhone in other countries, will finally result in the phone in Canada. I'm sure this is what Apple is waiting for. Check out his link:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/tech/cellphones/wireless-spectrum.html

Unfortunately it appears those rumors were false. All bidders are now signed up, and there's no AT&T or T-Mobile to be found. So it's going to be smaller startup companies that will take a while to come online. So, really our only "hope" for a quick launch of the iPhone in Canada is if Rogers blinks, or if Apple changes it's list of demands for a service agreement.

I've personally procrastinated myself into waiting too long on the iPhone. I should have bought in last fall when the first easy unlocks started showing up, but due to the ever-rotating rumor mill, it always seemed an official release was right around the corner. So, although I'd promised myself an iPhone for my birthday in May, it seems stupid to buy in now, so close to the end-of-life on the first-generation iPhone. So I will wait until the 3G version arrives (presumably at the end of June) and buy it whether there's an official release or not.

The articles title is misleading. I'm sure Apple would gladly be selling iPhones up here if we had a competitive market and non-insular distribution agreements, which keep the iPhone and things like movie rentals and US network TV shows out of our hands. But as someone above mentioned, how much trouble is it worth to them? Especially when our market is so saturated with unlocked iPhones already (though I do firmly believe that they will still sell like mad when officially released).

CalBoy
Apr 5, 2008, 02:31 PM
I sympathize with you Canadians, but Apple really can't be blamed for making logical business decisions.

The iPhone has so far only entered fairly large mobile markets (US mobile market is ~233 million, UK ~60 million, Germany ~80 million, and France ~60 million) that have a better propensity to adopt smart phones and newer technological devices.

Canada has only 17 million mobile phone lines in use at the moment. Link (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html)

As a percentage of its population (33 million) that is only a little higher than 50% (51.5% to be more precise).

As opposed to the near 100% ratio for the UK, France, and Germany, and the 77.6% ratio for the US, that number is quite low.

To top it off, only a single carrier is capable of providing service for the iPhone, and its corporate history has shown prior resistance to unlimited data plans which the iPhone relies upon:


This article...
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080211-rogers-unlimited-data-plan-not-so-unlimited-after-all.html

If Rogers is going to try to pull stunts like that with the iPhone, customers would be less likely to buy an iPhone out of the fear that they'd be hit with massive monthly charges. Unlimited has to mean unlimited when you have a device like the iPhone. Apple is probably hammering out those details with Rogers, but these things take time.


As for the article's other complaints about exchange rates, that's been hashed out many times in other threads here but I doubt Apple is doing it because it has anything against Canada.

juanster
Apr 5, 2008, 02:39 PM
I called and asked about that 7 dollar plan and they told me it would not work, I was told it's only for wap internet.. (or something liek that
) will nto work for blackberries or iphones, but i guess we ll wait and see. And yes we absolutely need some gsm competition up here, Rogers is milking everybody, those bastards...:mad:

CanadaRAM
Apr 5, 2008, 03:02 PM
Wasn't NAFTA supposed to fix all this?

Why? How?
NAFTA theoretically reduces trade barriers and tariffs. Doesn't force any company to have pricing parity or offer the identical product list, though.

The Rogers $7 plan specifically excludes smartphones of any type.

CalBoy
Apr 5, 2008, 03:05 PM
The Rogers $7 plan specifically excludes smartphones of any type.

:confused:

Wouldn't smartphone users be the primary market for unlimited data plans?

Seems a bit ridiculous.

juanster
Apr 5, 2008, 03:23 PM
:confused:

Wouldn't smartphone users be the primary market for unlimited data plans?

Seems a bit ridiculous.

yes, except that they want us smartphone users to pay fullprice for it, as in pay as you use, also they probably put that plan out there to se ehow many blackberry and iphone users get it and get really high first monthly bill, probably a couple millions profit extra for them by scaming people that think this is "unlimited data" or maybe im wrong i dont know, it would nto surprise me from rogers tho that's for sure.

mkrishnan
Apr 5, 2008, 03:28 PM
As a percentage of its population (33 million) that is only a little higher than 50% (51.5% to be more precise).

That's a really fascinating statistic. I had no idea mobile phone penetration was so low in Canada. Thanks! :) Anyone know why?

It can't just be because of smartphone pricing. :p The smartphone market is a relatively small niche in all the aforementioned countries that have saturated markets.

Does it have to do with poor service availability in rural Canada?

juanster
Apr 5, 2008, 03:31 PM
That's a really fascinating statistic. I had no idea mobile phone penetration was so low in Canada. Thanks! :) Anyone know why?

It can't just be because of smartphone pricing. :p The smartphone market is a relatively small niche in all the aforementioned countries that have saturated markets.

Does it have to do with poor service availability in rural Canada?

yeah, I was pretty impressed by those stats, so impressed i kind of don't believe it...:p i don't think i know someone without a cellphone...:confused:

rural Canada service isn't that bad as i rememeber, ive odne quite abit of traveling around and always seem to find reception and all, except for the rockies...I think it may be because we dont have that much competition in carriiers maybe?

Tom Foolery
Apr 5, 2008, 03:41 PM
I really don't like rogers, a little ironic because every service i have is with them. this is getting a little ridiculous. ted rogers needs to get off his high horse and rejoin the canadian citizens. i swear he is trying to take over canada. they charge ridiculous rates for everything, and provide ******* service at that. don't even get me started on the crap that i go through with rogers cable. plus the skydome was a way better name than the rogers center.

Ted rogers needs to be knocked in the head a couple of time or else he will own canada soon

juanster
Apr 5, 2008, 03:44 PM
rogers center? forget that i still call it the skydome.....

CalBoy
Apr 5, 2008, 03:47 PM
Anyone know why?

It's always hard to pinpoint a clear cause, but my guess is that less competition between carriers contributes to less phone adoption.

Even in the US, there was an initial resistance to widespread mobile phone adoption because carriers were limited and plans weren't as feature-packed. As more carriers entered the market, new options were able to entice customers to sign up (ie, how Sprint first introduced 7pm nights for unlimited calling and how T-Mobile recently unveiled 5-Faves).


Does it have to do with poor service availability in rural Canada?

Hmm, that's an interesting thought. It might explain a chunk of Canadians resisting mobile phones, but 16 million of them? As a percentage, more Americans live in rural areas, yet we have a higher penetration of mobile lines.

This truly is a very bizarre situation.
yeah, I was pretty impressed by those stats, so impressed i kind of don't believe it...:p i don't think i know someone without a cellphone...:confused:

I don't know anyone without a phone either, but then again, the people I know are people that are more like me to begin with. ;)

Older people tend to adopt mobile phones at a lower rate, and children obviously get them at a certain point, but don't have them all the time.

There are a lot of people, who for one reason or the other, just don't see the need for a mobile phone. You're likely not to notice though, since you take it for granted.

juanster
Apr 5, 2008, 03:54 PM
yeah absolutely true, i rememebr when fido offered teh city fido plan, whcih wa sunlimited calls all teht ime for 45 bucks a month, people were running to buy this plans, i did, and i was s till on contract with telus at the time, some of my friends had two phones because of the city fido plan, best thing ever. Then rogers bought fido and killed it. So yeah, i think the only way Rogers will lower their prices would be if more competition comes in, at one point im sure Rogers will stop buying them out...

autrefois
Apr 5, 2008, 07:54 PM
Apple's standard version of Microsoft's Office suite costs $399 (U.S.) and $549 (Canadian). (emphasis mine)

And they think this is Apple's fault?!?

SilvorX
Apr 5, 2008, 10:24 PM
I sympathize with you Canadians, but Apple really can't be blamed for making logical business decisions.

The iPhone has so far only entered fairly large mobile markets (US mobile market is ~233 million, UK ~60 million, Germany ~80 million, and France ~60 million) that have a better propensity to adopt smart phones and newer technological devices.

Canada has only 17 million mobile phone lines in use at the moment.
Ireland has only what? 4-5 million people?


rural Canada service isn't that bad as i rememeber, ive odne quite abit of traveling around and always seem to find reception and all, except for the rockies...I think it may be because we dont have that much competition in carriiers maybe?

I live in a farming town and while signal is amazing along the trans Canada highway, in very rural areas far from the Trans Canada or cities of 100k+ people, signal is terrible. There isn't a tower within 50km of my parents, but since it's flat prairie area, I can *just* get a signal there. It's much like this all over rural Canada.

Well anywho, I once worked in the wireless industry for an American carrier, much of the stuff that Rogers pulls would be IMPOSSIBLE to pull in the US. Such as.. while there may not be any "Roaming" in Canada for Rogers, if you leave your local calling area, you get dinged 25-30c/minute for every call you receive, data rate prices, 3 year contracts, etc.

Long distance alone on Rogers or any Canadian carrier is stupid.. I'm possibly heading to Quebec next month and will be receiving alot of calls and will be getting dinged for it.

outlyer
Apr 6, 2008, 10:03 AM
It really has nothing to do with Canada as a market, but everything to do with the entrenched monopolies that are kind of a given here. Rogers, for example, can get away with quite a bit because they are the sole GSM and cable provider for much of Canada. This makes Apple's negotiating position weak, which is almost certainly a factor in the iPhone deal.

The same problem affects the AppleTV; the television shows are licensed in Canada to local carriers who really have no interest in selling shows directly; particularly since the telecoms are also investors or whole owners in the major channels. Since they both own the channels and the delivery system (cable/satellite) they don't want to encourage a la carte programming.

Finally, Canada has some odd laws about "Canadian Content" which requires that a certain amount of programming on a given channel be Canadian in origin. Even if no one watches it, it's being broadcast. AppleTV's inherent choice in programming would mean Canadians would pay to watch Lost but not to watch Corner Gas (a local show)

mkrishnan
Apr 6, 2008, 10:47 AM
Finally, Canada has some odd laws about "Canadian Content" which requires that a certain amount of programming on a given channel be Canadian in origin.

I heard that every tenth word you say on Rogers wireless has to be "eh," in order to comply with this requirement. Oh, wait, that's normal anyways. :eek: ;) :D

juanster
Apr 6, 2008, 11:34 AM
I heard that every tenth word you say on Rogers wireless has to be "eh," in order to comply with this requirement. Oh, wait, that's normal anyways. :eek: ;) :D

ahahha, i used to be liek WTH are all thsi peopel talking about eh? I never say that....orrrrrrrrrrr sooooooooo it thought, then i started paying attention and we say it a lot eh? I was pretty surprised how many people say it while im at work... pretty nice day ot there eh? ooohh thats a big truck eh? this is some good chicken eh?... lol oh well... I m still kind of curious about the rumours of bell and telus going gsm...

Bakey
Apr 7, 2008, 04:28 AM
Like everyone else on earth except Ted Rogers himself (yes, Rogers employees Rogers just as much as the rest of us, if not more), but just over a month ago they started some sort of unlimited data plan for an additional $7 intended for phones bought through rogers only, but people have been using it successfully with their iPhones. Some see it as a test to see if their network can hold up to that kind of use.

My understanding of the whole Canadian iPhone debacle is very much due to the way Canada ties up its telecoms industry - although I'm also of the understanding that this is about to change with the imminent arrival of Virgin Mobile to your shores!

Anyway, it always brings a smile to my face when I see the "Ted Rogers School of Management" building there in Toronto - for all of those in the know Ted Rogers has very little to do with management on these shores...

re. Dusty Bin and 3-2-1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-2-1
:D

juanster
Apr 7, 2008, 10:13 AM
Virgin is been here for a while now no? i think i've seen it around for a year if not more, but they only seem to be for pay as you go gas station kind of cellphones...they never really did blow up, nowdays (last week or so) i keep seeing ads for a "koodo mobile" seems like they ve got lots of money invested on advertisement, they are everywhere in Toronto, I wonder what that s all about....*changes tab to look up their site*

CalBoy
Apr 7, 2008, 12:52 PM
Ireland has only what? 4-5 million people?

True, but the number of mobile lines nearly matches the population (there are actually more mobile lines than persons in Ireland :eek::D).

Plus, Ireland likely was an easy market to enter because of its better mobile phone market (more carriers that had already offered better data plans).

Not to mention the fact that Irish carriers might have been more willing to negotiate than Rogers.

brad.c
Apr 7, 2008, 01:01 PM
All this hate towards Canada....I happen to like Canadians....well one in particular but that's another tragic story.

Hey, I think I know him!

bdickson
Apr 7, 2008, 11:21 PM
Unfortunately it appears those rumors were false. All bidders are now signed up, and there's no AT&T or T-Mobile to be found. So it's going to be smaller startup companies that will take a while to come online. So, really our only "hope" for a quick launch of the iPhone in Canada is if Rogers blinks, or if Apple changes it's list of demands for a service agreement.

I've personally procrastinated myself into waiting too long on the iPhone. I should have bought in last fall when the first easy unlocks started showing up, but due to the ever-rotating rumor mill, it always seemed an official release was right around the corner. So, although I'd promised myself an iPhone for my birthday in May, it seems stupid to buy in now, so close to the end-of-life on the first-generation iPhone. So I will wait until the 3G version arrives (presumably at the end of June) and buy it whether there's an official release or not.

The articles title is misleading. I'm sure Apple would gladly be selling iPhones up here if we had a competitive market and non-insular distribution agreements, which keep the iPhone and things like movie rentals and US network TV shows out of our hands. But as someone above mentioned, how much trouble is it worth to them? Especially when our market is so saturated with unlocked iPhones already (though I do firmly believe that they will still sell like mad when officially released).

There may be no direct mention of ATT and T Mobile, but it is speculated that one of these is the backer behind the bid from Niagara Networks http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/03/27/tech-spectrum.html.

Rivix
Apr 14, 2008, 03:05 AM
I hope it comes soon... I really hate Rogers. Their current phones are pure crap.