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arn
May 6, 2002, 12:18 PM
MacCentral (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0205/06.wwdckeynote.php) has live keynote coverage.

Falleron
May 6, 2002, 12:26 PM
Does not sound like a July release!

Mr. Anderson
May 6, 2002, 12:28 PM
Its not over yet, so wait and see what happens.

I'm all for the death of OS9, but the coffin seems a little overly dramatic. Anyone have a pic of this, please post it, I'm very curious.

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 12:31 PM
Hah! I was right! I said before they needed a replacement for the finder that more closely suited the needs and intentional limitations of education, and now they're making a simplified finder with improved network management - the core of such a design - with an eye towards education. Outstanding - now they need some network (classroom) oriented education apps to go with it, and some light durable inexpensive school-oriented hardware to go with it. Cool.

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by cryptochrome
Hah! I was right! I said before they needed a replacement for the finder that more closely suited the needs and intentional limitations of education, and now they're making a simplified finder with improved network management - the core of such a design - with an eye towards education. Outstanding - now they need some network (classroom) oriented education apps to go with it, and some light durable inexpensive school-oriented hardware to go with it. Cool.

sorry to be dumb, but what site are you finding this specfic info? the maccentral stuff doesn't seem to be that specific.....?

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 12:35 PM
ok. it just updated for me...

check dat last post.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 12:39 PM
From maccentral:
Jobs on new Jaguar features: Finder improvements -- integrated search, multithreading support, automatic thumbnail creation.
Of course! Just after I registered a shareware app to do make thumbnails for me! (I forget which one)
Oh well, maybe my $$ will help that developer make the next big shareware app.

-Eric

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 12:42 PM
sherlock 3. let's hope it's much better than the current os x version....

the more they add about it (yellow pages), the more it sounds like watson...

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 12:48 PM
Yellow pages with local search. Now there's something they should have had a long time ago. I wonder if that means they'll bring back an actual locations preference option, to change network settings, time zones, and now address information (zip code). Eh, probably not.

Mr. Anderson
May 6, 2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
sherlock 3. let's hope it's much better than the current os x version....

the more they add about it (yellow pages), the more it sounds like watson...

I'm curious about this one, could it end up being a Mac Browser - espicially supporting direct HTML?

Damn, now we have to wait for the release of the OSX.2, which won't be anytime soon.

I do like the QT6 integration, but again, does that mean we have to wait until OSX.2 comes out or do we get that sooner?

Uuugghhh, too many questions and not enough answers......:(

afonso
May 6, 2002, 12:53 PM
im hoping we'll see an updated apple/macosx page, with samples about all the new stuff!

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Damn, now we have to wait for the release of the OSX.2, which won't be anytime soon.

I do like the QT6 integration, but again, does that mean we have to wait until OSX.2 comes out or do we get that sooner?

Uuugghhh, too many questions and not enough answers......:(

that's my fear as well. i'd ALMOST rather not have the little tease we are getting. everything sounds great. but we won't see it for..... months.

afonso
May 6, 2002, 12:58 PM
i say september...

D0ct0rteeth
May 6, 2002, 01:01 PM
late summer you say... hmm... sept 10th...

iBook @ MWNY july 16th ?

C-

........................

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by afonso
i say september...

you really think even after mwny? wow... that'll be rough.

so this latest bit about the graphics cards doing the quartz stuff with opengl... and can't do that on old cards... does that mean x.2 won't work on comps with the older cards? or just that that feature won't be optimized?

Falleron
May 6, 2002, 01:02 PM
Quartz Extreme: Takes the compositing engine in Quartz, and accelerates it in graphics cards. Combines 2D, 3D and video in one hardware pipeline via OpenGL. "Everything on the screen is being drawn in hardware by OpenGL." Requires AGP 2x and 32MB of video RAM.

Must be an update to the ibook soon otherwise they wont be able to benefit!!

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 01:03 PM
from maccentral
Quartz Extreme: Takes the compositing engine in Quartz, and accelerates it in graphics cards. Combines 2D, 3D and video in one hardware pipeline via OpenGL. "Everything on the screen is being drawn in hardware by OpenGL." Requires AGP 2x and 32MB of video RAM.
It is not possible on older graphics cards like RAGE 128 cards, said Jobs -- that means it'll work on newer iMacs and eMacs, but not on older machines, he emphasized. AGP 2x and 32MB video RAM are required for this new technology.


YES!!!!
I can't believe they hadn't done this already! This would cause me to, finally, have to ditch my old B&W G3 but it's about time for that anyway.

afonso
May 6, 2002, 01:05 PM
yeah, i see x.2 only coming out early september...

about the graphics accelaration, it's a feature, so x.2 will still work on older systems, though more slowly :D

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by afonso
about the graphics accelaration, it's a feature, so x.2 will still work on older systems, though more slowly :D

i assumed as much. but we all know what happens when we assume....

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 01:07 PM
" Quartz Extreme: Takes the compositing engine in Quartz, and accelerates it in graphics cards. Combines 2D, 3D and video in one hardware pipeline via OpenGL. "Everything on the screen is being drawn in hardware by OpenGL." Requires AGP 2x and 32MB of video RAM. "

WTF! Man now that is the first thing they have done to piss me off. I have shelled out for two systems this year and neither will perform these! Oh, well, I guess that will be a good reason to upgrade to a new iMac :-)

Mr. Anderson
May 6, 2002, 01:07 PM
But it might also mean you won't be able to use OSX.2 on older machines, or ones without an upgrade to the video card, even if that's possible. Its a great way to go and will speed up the overall system performance, but its also not going to be available to everyone.

What will they do for the older machines now? Will you only be able to install parts of the OSX.2 depending on your hardware config?:(

afonso
May 6, 2002, 01:08 PM
i think it will work as it does now, with no true graphics acc via a direct pipeline, so it should be ok, without u even noticing it...

INKWELL!!! ouch, that is exciting ;)

cleo
May 6, 2002, 01:09 PM
::beats head against wall::

should have waited on buying the iBook. blah.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
What will they do for the older machines now? Will you only be able to install parts of the OSX.2 depending on your hardware config?:(
I would guess those features would just be like today - software rendered by the CPI.

Ensign Paris
May 6, 2002, 01:11 PM
Well, may I say it all looks very cool, I hope this gives up the opertunity to have OSX as fast as OS9

Ensign

cleo
May 6, 2002, 01:13 PM
Sounds like a PDA must be in the works. Why buy a tablet to write when you already have a keyboard on a regular system?

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 01:13 PM
Rendezvous. Dynamic IP discovery. Lets computers "dynamically discover each other and share them." Proposing as a new industry standard. Jobs cited example of multiple Macs working at home sharing MP3 files with iTunes between multiple computers.
... that is until the record industry decides that it's illegal. :rolleyes:

theranch
May 6, 2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Its not over yet, so wait and see what happens.

I'm all for the death of OS9, but the coffin seems a little overly dramatic. Anyone have a pic of this, please post it, I'm very curious.
That statement was intended for the developers to no longer bother with OS9.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 01:16 PM
...explains to Cajun Italian wife that her iBook will not support Extreme Quartz....


bang

....wife finds new husband with enough money to buy her a new TiBook 800

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
...explains to Cajun Italian wife that her iBook will not support Extreme Quartz....


bang

....wife finds new husband with enough money to buy her a new TiBook 800

that is rough. i'm surprised she knew what extreme quartz was. heck, i don't really... ha.

D0ct0rteeth
May 6, 2002, 01:24 PM
having doubts if my qucksilver 867 will run X.2

sound like bloatware to anyone else?

OSX is slow enough already

C-

..............................

afonso
May 6, 2002, 01:26 PM
it will be much faster

Vilacr
May 6, 2002, 01:28 PM
I think apple may be making a mistake for producing an os that ibooks cannot run. Thousands of people have recently purchased these laptops and will find they can not run the new os. I think this will be a huge mistake if the new ibooks cannot run osx.2.

afonso
May 6, 2002, 01:29 PM
geez, ppl, only quartz extreme will not run!!!

and that means it just won't be using your graphics card to accelerate quartz!!

----------

built-in messaging is great :D

Centris Fan
May 6, 2002, 01:29 PM
Sweet, maybe we will have an AIM program as good as Adium with the capabilities to read away messages, etc.

Mr. Anderson
May 6, 2002, 01:36 PM
iChat???

But I loath AOL almost as much as M$. Damn. I never got into the chat arena, maybe, maybe I will now, but I don't see it as a big productivity tool.

mischief
May 6, 2002, 01:37 PM
[SIZE=4]WHEN?!?[SIZE=4]

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 01:37 PM
May 14th: Apple introducing a dedicated server, rack mount model.
Maybe that red mother board IS real!?!?!

Mr. Anderson
May 6, 2002, 01:38 PM
'Apple introducing a dedicated server, rack mount model.'


Rumors were correct, I wonder what other hardware we'll see soon?

Timothy
May 6, 2002, 01:39 PM
well...well...well ;)

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by afonso
geez, ppl, only quartz extreme will not run!!!

and that means it just won't be using your graphics card to accelerate quartz!!

----------

built-in messaging is great :D

Please don't take offense to this, but, do you happen to own a new iBook? Did you just shell out 1499$ just to find out that all of the features of X will not run on it? How would that make you feel? How about it you just bought two. One for you and one for your wife. Oh no, it is not a good feeling at all. We love our iBooks, no doubt about that, but to buy hardware in quarter 2 of 2002 that will not be able to run an OS update in quarter 3 of 2002. Well, that just ********* sucks! If you can't see that then your blind.

Oh, yea it may just be the accelerated quartz, but with a G3, we need all the help we can get.

bobky
May 6, 2002, 01:40 PM
anyone think ichat will be able to handle different protocols?

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 01:41 PM
A better mail huh? I hope it imports eudora files better. I have a whole slew of semi-complictated filters, mailboxes full of highlighted files, and to top it off I keep my replies in the same boxes as the messages I recieve. (Makes going over old emails much easier, that's for sure - though I think even Eudora gets confused over them in some situations easily). When I tried to move to mail.app before the results were... unpleasant.

afonso
May 6, 2002, 01:43 PM
hey, fyi i use a g3 ibook (500) and im not mad ;)

new servers is great!

now im pissed :( i had a scholarship and couldn't go to the conference due to the lack of support from my university... AND THEY'RE GIVING AWAY PREVIEW VERSIONS!!!!! :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
iChat???

But I loath AOL almost as much as M$. Damn. I never got into the chat arena, maybe, maybe I will now, but I don't see it as a big productivity tool.

stay away from it unless you really need/want to do it.... it can suck up so much damn time. i messed my grades up pretty bad freshman year. and it's just kinda dumb and gets old. unless you're far from a special someone and such... but anyhoo

weird that it says "news on the server front in a week" but then declares factually that there will be a new rackmount model... with date (may 14) and all...

Megaquad
May 6, 2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Falleron
Quartz Extreme: Takes the compositing engine in Quartz, and accelerates it in graphics cards. Combines 2D, 3D and video in one hardware pipeline via OpenGL. "Everything on the screen is being drawn in hardware by OpenGL." Requires AGP 2x and 32MB of video RAM.

Must be an update to the ibook soon otherwise they wont be able to benefit!!
What should I do with my iMac G3 350 MHz?!
This isnt fair :(

digitalbiker
May 6, 2002, 01:43 PM
This really irks me! I had put up with 10.0 the unfinished operating system since March 2001. Paid for my free update to 10.1, which by the way was a great improvement. But still OS X just isn't quite there. Applications have been slow in coming and frankly the whole OS is just slow responding and not as refined an interface as OS 9.

After one year went by and rumors of Jaguar had been circulating about a March release, then put off til July MWNY, now late summer. UGGGGGGH!! All I can say is "I sure hope this OS lives up to all the hype!!". Why even tease us about Jaguar if we have to wait 4 months!!!

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 01:45 PM
Oh, yea it may just be the accelerated quartz, but with a G3, we need all the help we can get. [/B]

One would think they could implement at least some of Extreme Quartz even on older graphics cards, rather than all-or-nothing. You're absolutely right, G3s (and other lower-end configurations not yet imagined, such as the future apple pda-thingy) are the ones that need this power the most, and have the least room for super gigantic graphics cards.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Oh, yea it may just be the accelerated quartz, but with a G3, we need all the help we can get.
I'd be pretty po'ed too, but that's life in the tech biz. A friend of mine just bought a 667 TiBook a month before the 800 TiBook came out. I bought my B&W G3 a few months before the G4's came out. We all get screwed by every time we buy anything new.

Remember, though, OS X 10.2 WILL RUN on your iBook. In fact, I'd bet it will run FASTER than 10.1.x does by the simple fact that they are optimizing it in other ways than just the Quartz Exteme stuff.

Besides, chances are the Quartz Extreme stuff will be buggy long enough for you to save up for a TiBook or a future G4 iBook. (just trying to look on the bright side for ya! :D )

afonso
May 6, 2002, 01:49 PM
they aren't teasing consumers about anything... this is a developer's conference and for us, we need to hear about these things asap... they're giving away preview versions for attendees for this reason.

any major software update takes always more than the theoretical deadline.

cleo
May 6, 2002, 01:50 PM
I can probably guess the answer to this question, but is it possible to upgrade the graphics cards on late-model iBooks?

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 01:51 PM
Thanks for the smile...

I have bought hardware, and then had new hardware come out, but I am so p'oed because this is software. To run the software the way it should be run, then we have to upgrade hardware. UGH!~!!!@!)(*HFAO @#$@*(@#**$)@#@(!@

I will get over it.

Geert
May 6, 2002, 01:53 PM
All but great new things :D
Pitty though that I won't be able to run it on my imacDV+ (not enough RAM on graph card) :(

Must find some cash quickly, need new mac, ...:confused:

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by cleo
I can probably guess the answer to this question, but is it possible to upgrade the graphics cards on late-model iBooks?

Nope, welcome to my boat, the S.S. Take it up the rear.
;)

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 01:54 PM
Is the new iMac's gForce 2MX card with 32MB ram considered to be an "AGP 2x" card? It's on the motherboard, right? Is there an AGP 2x connection, just without the slot?

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


Nope, welcome to my boat, the S.S. Take it up the rear.
;)
Do you run 10.1 on your iBook today? Just curious, have you compared it's speed to the iMac G4 or TiBook?

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 01:57 PM
stay away from it unless you really need/want to do it.... it can suck up so much damn time.

You're too modest. How about this: "Internet chatting will whittle away precious hours of your life on conversations so inane and so ungrounded in reality it makes Pauly Shore seem erudite and entertaining. "

cleo
May 6, 2002, 01:59 PM
I hope they've hired the guy who puts out Adium to develop this thing, or it's not going to be coming anywhere near my machines.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Do you run 10.1 on your iBook today? Just curious, have you compared it's speed to the iMac G4 or TiBook?

I am running X.1.4 with 384 MB of ram on my iBooks, and X.1.4 with 1GB of ram on my iMac. Three machines since December of 2001 and none will use the extreme quartz. That is one of the biggest problems with X is the speed of quartz. Oh well.

Actually, I have seen it run next to the new iMacs, and they are much "snappier" (sorry, couldn't resist). It is just aggrivating to spend this kind of money in one year and forever be stuck with a mediocre speed on the interface. Unreal.

Absolutly friggin unreal.

Can anyone say class action (tounge firmly planted in cheek)

gratefulmac
May 6, 2002, 02:03 PM
I banned Classic in February.

Its time for a clean OS X.

I hope 10.2 comes in November 2002.

Mr. Anderson
May 6, 2002, 02:05 PM
I'm going to be very curious how this all effects the stock. It'll probably go up if everybody starts complaining saying they need new machines, which means Apple will inevitably sell more. Figures.

But is it me, or was this a lame WWDC KeyNote?

mhodgso2
May 6, 2002, 02:09 PM
I just hope that iChat is more stable and usefull than AIM's OS X mesenger right now. I usually just use it for sending files and getting away mesages to see where people are. Both of these functions are not supported on any other 3rd party AIM client and the file sending is very unstable and sometimes wont even connect. I also think Apple should look into making this same app be able to sign on to all the different messenging clients like ICQ, yahoo, and msn like the program Proteus. That would be very cool! Oh yeah, it should deffinately have the one-window option like adium.

Regards,
Matt

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 02:09 PM
Backtothemac,
I agree, that's gotta be agrivating. Kinda like when I spent several hundred on a Sega Dreamcast, the broadband adapter and a ton of games, only to have Sega pull the plug a few weeks later. Kinda like that but multiplied by about 10!
Ouch!:eek:

On your iMac, what's the possibility of a G4 upgrade in that thing? (I've never opened one up.) I threw a Sonnet G4/400 ZIF in my B&W tower as soon as I started using OSX PR4 and it helped the Quartz slowness a lot.

theranch
May 6, 2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
I'm going to be very curious how this all effects the stock. It'll probably go up if everybody starts complaining saying they need new machines, which means Apple will inevitably sell more. Figures.

But is it me, or was this a lame WWDC KeyNote?

I hear ya...I was expecting something big.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 02:11 PM
As far as I know everything after the Summer 2000 iMacs cannot handle any kind of upgrade other than Ram, and airport card. Something about the motherboard design.

I plan on buying a real small PC motherboard with a 14 inch LCD and building it into the iMac.

Just kidding :-)

I would never desicrate Flower Power like that.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
But is it me, or was this a lame WWDC KeyNote?
Lame? Not from my point of view (software developer), but for most users, probably.
As a user, though, the Extreme Quartz stuff sound VERY cool. (even though I have to buy a newer machine to see it)

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
I plan on buying a real small PC motherboard with a 14 inch LCD and building it into the iMac.

Just kidding :-)

I would never desicrate Flower Power like that.
LOL! I'd love to see pictures of that! ;)

mhodgso2
May 6, 2002, 02:16 PM
I agree it wasn't the most exciting keynote ever but I don't think it was lame. Quartz extreem alone is a much needed and exciting addition. It is dissapointing that people wont be able to take advantage of it but I think everyone agrees that OS X needs to be a bit more snappy to compete with the responsiveness that high end windows machines have. I hope it can realy speed things up a bit!

-Matt

Mr. Anderson
May 6, 2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Lame? Not from my point of view (software developer), but for most users, probably.
As a user, though, the Extreme Quartz stuff sound VERY cool. (even though I have to buy a newer machine to see it)

But that's my point, Extreme Quartz sounds cool, but we're not going to see it any time soon and most people out there today won't be able to use it. That's not exactly a good thing. Promises are one thing, I want something that I'll be able to work with now.

Oh, well, anyone care to start discussing what's on deck for MWNY......

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 02:18 PM
Well, Steve said that Extreme Quartz will "but us two years ahead of the other guys". Everyone but us G3 iMac and iBook users.

We are forever stuck in today.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet

Oh, well, anyone care to start discussing what's on deck for MWNY......

If it is an iBook with a 32 meg video card, I am going to make a trip to Cali, and stick my iBooks up Steves A$$ :p

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


But that's my point, Extreme Quartz sounds cool, but we're not going to see it any time soon and most people out there today won't be able to use it. That's not exactly a good thing. Promises are one thing, I want something that I'll be able to work with now.

Oh, well, anyone care to start discussing what's on deck for MWNY......
I'm not so sure the "most people out there" part of yoru message is acurate. I'd stipulate that most people who CAN run OS X DO either have the video card to do this or have an AGP 2x slot they could upgrade with. People with machines as old as mine can't, but that doesn't surprise me. I think it's safe to say "a lot" of people won't benefit from this, but I also think it will be enough of a selling point to make "a lot" of people (myself included) think about buying a newer Mac.
As far a Backtothemac's issue, where his brand new iBook can't utilize it. That sucks, but the video card in that thing is seriously underpowered. Apple probably should have thought of this and bumped it up at MWSF.
Remember, too, that the rage 128's do support OpenGL and it's not entirely crazy to think that in a future release (10.2.x) they make some of the technology work with these older video cards.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 02:32 PM
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/may/06jaguar.html

IMHO, on of the most important things in this is:
* Windows Support, for increased compatibility with Windows networks with SMB browsing and sharing as well as built-in PPTP VPN security.
Apple NEEDS to get SMB browsing and shring working at least as good as DAVE did (any may still) under OS 8/9

peterjhill
May 6, 2002, 02:33 PM
I think that it sounds like a lot of good things are coming from Apple (IMHO).

Servers! They could be either really lame are really awesome, I hope Apple is making them right.

Extreme Quartz: Awesome, about time. As for the reqs. There had to be some cutoff. It does suck for anyone who has an Apple laptop that is more than a week old, Power Mac users can upgrade at least. Apple had to do this.

Sherlock 3: Great, on a Windoze machine, I hate searching for anything, it takes for freaking ever! I hope that we can configure Sherlock to not bother looking into certain folders. If I have 300 CDs of MP3s on my HD, I don't want to have to search through them all for something that I know won't be there. Custom Channels for searching your HD would be cool (A digital photo channel, an MP3 channel, a document channel, and a everything else channel would be nice)

iChat: AIM compatibility is nice, but I hope that it supports other chat servers. What would be cool is if you could also set per contact which is the prefered chat program

Inkwell: cool, now if you could use the touchpad on the laptops to enter text, that might be of some limited use, of course us touch typers would find limited use. It does make me wonder about something between a PDA and a laptop that Apple could release for the vertical markets, eg. something that hospitals could use for nurses to get patient info

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/may/06jaguar.html

IMHO, on of the most important things in this is:

Apple NEEDS to get SMB browsing and shring working at least as good as DAVE did (any may still) under OS 8/9

God, I'd settle for just being able to tap into the printer network! That'd make my life a lot easier.

G4scott
May 6, 2002, 02:46 PM
I'm so happy, yet mad...

I have a 600mhz iBook... And no plans in the next 2 years to get a new computer. I think this announcement means that Apple will kill the G3 soon, and put G4's in iBooks. What I wish Apple would do, is make quartz extreme work on iBooks, even if it only takes half the load, it's still better than leaving all that processing to the CPU.

Rack-mount servers are good, 10.2 sounds awesome, QT6, iChat, and windows stuff... all cool.

Rendezvous, uh, I'm not sure how that will work. In a networking class I'm taking, we learned that if each computer tries to broadcast to find all the computers on a network, it would take a while for each computer to find every other computer, and it also slows down a network. It might work in a home environment, but not in a school, or major network... I'll say more, but i've gtg. I have to go to my next class...

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 02:48 PM
Huh - I'm just noticing something subtle about iChat.

Rendezvous allows you to automatically discover other devices over IP for file sharing or whatever. Point being it's an easy way to build a dynamic network and join it on the client side, allowing an easy way to share resources. iChat apparently uses some of this technology, because it also has the ability to automatically discover other users on their local wired and wireless networks.

This is a fundamental departure from practically every other IM system I know of, because it can ground your chatting in the physical world by singling out the people near you. Not such a big deal in the wired world - but in the wireless world it could be huge, especially via the rumored pda-thingy. I'm predicting a matchmaking plugin for iChat in short order, not unlike that gadget they have in Japan but much better.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 02:55 PM
They have updated the OS X Page with info on Jaguar

sjs
May 6, 2002, 03:06 PM
Will the Address Book be usable on iPod?

gjohns01
May 6, 2002, 03:10 PM
It's going to suck for most people (including me), but anyone who has spent a lot of time in X or had a chance to read through the developer news groups had to see Quartz Extreme coming. Extreme is a bad name. It should be Quartz Finally. Without the techie details, the Quartz engine was built so that no graphics card on the market could accelerate X UI elements by default. They moved from pushing bits to vectors. Two things could have happened. ATI and Nvidia could have created a new graphics chip that handled vectors. And we know they wouldn't do that. Or Apple had to rewrite the engine to fit the graphics cards. So you get Quartz Extreme. What this will probably mean in my case is that Java2D on OS X will finally work like it is supposed to. i.e. faster than a few frames per second.

peterjhill
May 6, 2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by G4scott


Rendezvous, uh, I'm not sure how that will work. In a networking class I'm taking, we learned that if each computer tries to broadcast to find all the computers on a network, it would take a while for each computer to find every other computer, and it also slows down a network. It might work in a home environment, but not in a school, or major network... I'll say more, but i've gtg. I have to go to my next class...

Not to mention that broadcasts only work on your subnet. What would work (on a single subnet) could be something where:

A machine comes onto the network, sends a broadcast to a well known port (rendezvous port) if no one replies, it assumes that there are no neighbors and goes into rendezvous server mode.

When the next machines come up, they send a broadcast, and only the server replies, and gets the name of the new machine, and then sends a unicast to the new machine with the current table and a broadcast add to other machines to add the new machine. This way you would avoid flooding the table to all switch ports.

You could also have a server assert itself when it comes online to become the rendezvous server. Kind of a cross between WINS and OSPF. You might also have the machines send the rendezvous server/master keepalives say every 30 seconds or so (unicast) to keep the table updated. You could have the server wait 3 intervals (in case the keep alive got lost) and then send a broadcast to remove that machine from the clients rendezvous database.

Just an idea

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 03:14 PM
Well that new os x page is handy...

So they're making the Finder, Address book, iChat, and mail.app all work together... I sense the videoconferencing app will also soon be integrated. This is all fine and good but I hope they leave ways for 3rd party products to tap into this. It's like choosing a default app for internet protocols, except this is more data oriented.

Take a close look at the sherlock picture - translation services too, woo! All those channels are things normally handled only on the web - how are they going to integrate them into an app like this, and what will be the limitations? Who WON'T be participating?

Ooh! Finder windows now have a fast find search field box! No more command-F, wait for sherlock to load for me! 'Bout time.

If Universal access allows us to magnify the whole screen, why can't us abled users be able to do the same with a larger desktop? (Or do the multi-desktop thing).

It occurs to me that the transition to IPv6 could be a lot less painful with Rendezvous as a standard.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by cryptochrome
God, I'd settle for just being able to tap into the printer network! That'd make my life a lot easier.
You've made my point! Apple MUST support Windows networking 100% if they want to get back into the corporate space! If I brought my OS X box to my workplace, I'd have to figure out how to get it to talk to our printers by either IP ala Unix lp printing or try to get AppleTalk printing turned on by our IS people. (That's probably not happening) With SMB support I can just plug it in and go to work.

BeerDrinker29
May 6, 2002, 03:24 PM
Just finished reading spymac's report of the announcements -- they point out: NO more need for DAVE. That alone is worth the price of upgrade.

lucs
May 6, 2002, 03:24 PM
OH JOY, OH GLORIOUS JOY, PATIENCE DOES PAY OFF!!!!

Its like that Guns N' Roses song: "All you need is just a little patience....."

I have been using a Macintosh Powerbook G3 (bronze keyboard) since 1999...it's about time for some shopping!!!

Oh, and if you want to have access to Windows networks, can't you use DAVE?

oh and btw Guns N' Roses absolutely rules over the universe (old Guns, naturally)

peterjhill
May 6, 2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by cryptochrome


It occurs to me that the transition to IPv6 could be a lot less painful with Rendezvous as a standard.

Actually IPv6 is not very painful for the user. It is actually very easy from the user perspective, you basically enable it, and it does everything for you.

Also cool is that each host will have multiple IPs
Link-layer
link-local
multicast interface-local
multicast link local

What we need is a v6 backbone. The Internet 2 (http://www.internet2.edu) is going native v6 soon, so those in Universities will be able to use it without (slow) tunnels.

IE6 for windows supports v6, I hope that Apple Apps will be v6 aware when they release 10.2

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 03:29 PM
A couple of things-

Check out the OS X page for Jaguar:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/newversion/

Sherlock 3, Address Book and iChat all sport the iTunes brushed metal UI rather than pinstripes...

Servers:
Fantastic! I can barely wait a week to see what they come out with!

Quartz Extreme:
All of you iBook/iMac owners are complaining, but as a rev a TiBook owner I feel left out too. My Rage Mobility card with 8MB of VRAM won't be able to take advantage of these features...hell the rev b models won't even be able to! Why can't they make the code more efficient rather than require faster hardware? I hate to see Apple going the route of bloatware just to pretty up the GUI.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 03:30 PM
On Apple's 10.2 info page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/newversion/), the following footnote appears regarding Quartz Extreem supported video cards:
*nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.
Notice the "recommeded" word next to the RAM requirement. Hmmmmm
Could this mean that the just obsoleted TiBooks and current iBooks will get some benefits?

sjs
May 6, 2002, 03:30 PM
Would iChat and videoconferencing flow from the same software?
If the QT6 integrates with iChat?

Boy, wouldn't that take chatting to the next level?
Great for businesses too.

sjs
May 6, 2002, 03:35 PM
Watson is really cool, and I paid for it. Based on the Apple OSX page, it looks like the new Sherlock has either copied or bought rights to Watson (although the appearance is different).

D0ct0rteeth
May 6, 2002, 03:36 PM
am i correct in assuming that any machine older than a quicksilver will not take advantage of Quartz Extreme?

damn.. there are going to be some pissed off people..

C-

Fat Tony
May 6, 2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
On Apple's 10.2 info page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/newversion/), the following footnote appears regarding Quartz Extreem supported video cards:

Notice the "recommeded" word next to the RAM requirement. Hmmmmm
Could this mean that the just obsoleted TiBooks and current iBooks will get some benefits?

Oh man I hope so! Hopefully, there will be some clarification soon on this. I already felt stiffed on buying my Rev B 667 right before the new ones came out. This 32 DDR is another kick in the stomach while I'm down, if it is a requirement.

sjs
May 6, 2002, 03:39 PM
With the capabilities of Quartz Extreme, that would seem to give Aqua new life, for those who thought it was going to be dropped.

mischief
May 6, 2002, 03:40 PM
I have a sawtooth G4 with an AGP nVidia GeForce 2 MX 32Mb.

sjs
May 6, 2002, 03:42 PM
INK not Inkwell.

Apple says it requires an "input tablet"...

Is that a "digital lifestyle" device? Or something for graphics artists only? Or Apple's version of a PDA?

gjohns01
May 6, 2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by sjs
INK not Inkwell.

Apple says it requires an "input tablet"...

Is that a "digital lifestyle" device? Or something for graphics artists only? Or Apple's version of a PDA?

What would be cool is to see a version OS X for handheld devices. An OS X for Devices for lack of a better name that could be licensed to 3rd party manufacturers. Moving Darwin to the handheld CPUs shouldn't be to hard.

jbouklas
May 6, 2002, 03:55 PM
It's because of Jaguar that I won't upgrade my computer. I have a Sawtooth G4 (400 MHz, 768MB RAM, 50 GB HD). I put a Radeon into my computer a year ago, with 32MB of RAM. So, I'll see a HUGE performance increase, which should hold me over until the second revision G5s. The use of the video card will accelerate Internet Explorer, the Finder, and just about ever app you use. It is going to be really nice. As for the iBooks, I see an update in store for them in the next month or two. As of right now, they can run Jaguar, but the new Quartz won't be fully supported.

-Jim

nickgold
May 6, 2002, 03:56 PM
Are Mac users a particularly whiny bunch, or what?!

For every G3 tower owner complaining about not being able to use Quartz Extreme: BUY A NEW GRAPHICS CARD! If you took the time to look, it seems as if you could easily buy a new nVidia PCI graphics card, out of the ones mentioned in the footnote, and take advantage of the new graphics system.

As for the laptop owners who are complaing: Boo freaking hoo. Anyone who expects Apple to support all machines, especially those at the bottom of the scale, in every new feature release is a delusional fool. It's not like OS X will suddenly stop working. You simply won't have access to all of the possible power. Which is to be expected, if you have a lower-end machine. Get over it.

Also, for anyone saying that this wasn't a big WWDC keynote... What are you smoking? ;) Seriously, Apple just announced A RACK SERVER, people! That is perhaps the biggest news out of Apple IN YEARS.

They also finally announced how they plan to use Inkwell technology. Hardware acceleration for OS X. A new iApp. New Sherlock. And a host of other cool stuff. Uhm, this was a HUGE day in Apple history! Geez...

gjohns01
May 6, 2002, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by nickgold
Are Mac users a particularly whiny bunch, or what?!

For every G3 tower owner complaining about not being able to use Quartz Extreme: BUY A NEW GRAPHICS CARD! If you took the time to look, it seems as if you could easily buy a new nVidia PCI graphics card, out of the ones mentioned in the footnote, and take advantage of the new graphics system.

As for the laptop owners who are complaing: Boo freaking hoo. Anyone who expects Apple to support all machines, especially those at the bottom of the scale, in every new feature release is a delusional fool. It's not like OS X will suddenly stop working. You simply won't have access to all of the possible power. Which is to be expected, if you have a lower-end machine. Get over it.

Also, for anyone saying that this wasn't a big WWDC keynote... What are you smoking? ;) Seriously, Apple just announced A RACK SERVER, people! That is perhaps the biggest news out of Apple IN YEARS.

They also finally announced how they plan to use Inkwell technology. Hardware acceleration for OS X. A new iApp. New Sherlock. And a host of other cool stuff. Uhm, this was a HUGE day in Apple history! Geez...

Extreme requires AGP 2X.

nickgold
May 6, 2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by jbouklas
It's because of Jaguar that I won't upgrade my computer. I have a Sawtooth G4 (400 MHz, 768MB RAM, 50 GB HD). I put a Radeon into my computer a year ago, with 32MB of RAM. So, I'll see a HUGE performance increase, which should hold me over until the second revision G5s. The use of the video card will accelerate Internet Explorer, the Finder, and just about ever app you use. It is going to be really nice. As for the iBooks, I see an update in store for them in the next month or two. As of right now, they can run Jaguar, but the new Quartz won't be fully supported.

-Jim

Amen! I own a 450 G4 Sawtooth with the original Rage 128 AGP card. Not even a Rage 128 Pro, mind you. Now I am definitely going to pick up one of the old 32MB Radeon AGP 2x cards (even if they are still overpriced -- or have they come down yet?) This OS X update will breathe new life into my ageing desktop, and I for one am EXCITED AS ALL HECK! :D Heheheh So now we will be able to resist the almighty G5 rev1 when they become available at some point in the (presumably) near future. Whoohoo!

nickgold
May 6, 2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by gjohns01


Extreme requires AGP 2X.

Read the requirements again. They seem to imply that AGP 2x is only required for ATI cards. The nVidia cards are listed before that, and there doesn't seem to be a mention of an AGP 2x requirement for those cards. We shall see, I could of course be mistaken.

porovaara
May 6, 2002, 04:02 PM
Which is it?

Good grief people you won't be able to get accelerated Quartz. That is it. The rest of the update will be fine. There are already significant speedups across the board which will help every mac out there... but c'mon. Stop whining that you bought your FIXED system Mac (ie a laptop) and it suddenly won't run FUTURE technology perfectly.

Which world do you guys live in where everything you buy is all of a sudden compatible with everything that comes along in the future? Does it really matter if it is tmrw? next month? next year?

When you buy something like a computer, you should be making your sole judgment on if it makes you happy then. Does it do everything you want it to? If you are buying based on future expectations then you are completely ignorant of the way the computer industry works.

Does this new update make your mac any less usable than it is now? No, in fact it will make it more so.

mischief
May 6, 2002, 04:06 PM
Welcome to the Anti-zealots.;) :D

gjohns01
May 6, 2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by nickgold


Read the requirements again. They seem to imply that AGP 2x is only required for ATI cards. The nVidia cards are listed before that, and there doesn't seem to be a mention of an AGP 2x requirement for those cards. We shall see, I could of course be mistaken.

Ok. cool. I need to buy a new Mac anyway. My beige G3 is way past retirement.

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by nickgold
As for the laptop owners who are complaing: Boo freaking hoo. Anyone who expects Apple to support all machines, especially those at the bottom of the scale, in every new feature release is a delusional fool. It's not like OS X will suddenly stop working. You simply won't have access to all of the possible power. Which is to be expected, if you have a lower-end machine. Get over it.

So you're calling Rev A and B TiBooks low-end machines? What have you been smoking?

BOOMBA
May 6, 2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by D0ct0rteeth
am i correct in assuming that any machine older than a quicksilver will not take advantage of Quartz Extreme?

damn.. there are going to be some pissed off people..

C-

I hope not.
I have an old G4 450, and I recently installed the ATI Radeon 8500 Mac Edition, with 64MB of RAM.

I really haven't noticed too much difference, in fact iTunes seems to draw visuals slower, but I am hoping to see BIG THINGS from quartz Extreme.

So even computers that are close to 3 years old can benefit.

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by nickgold
Read the requirements again. They seem to imply that AGP 2x is only required for ATI cards. The nVidia cards are listed before that, and there doesn't seem to be a mention of an AGP 2x requirement for those cards. We shall see, I could of course be mistaken.

How about you read them again:
*nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.

They don't mention AGP2x specifically, since the ALL the cards listed are AGP4x cards.

aafuss1
May 6, 2002, 04:19 PM
SPRING LOADED FOLDERS :

Finally Apple has brought back one of my favourite features- spring lp (that I like in Mac OS 8) to X.

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by mischief
Welcome to the Anti-zealots.;) :D

Actually they are the very definition of zealots, in that they are defending Apple in spite of the reality of what 10.2 means for most users.

Chalk up two more Zealots on the board.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Actually they are the very definition of zealots, in that they are defending Apple in spite of the reality of what 10.2 means for most users.

Chalk up two more Zealots on the board.
So you would rather Apple not develop a 3D accerated desktop API and wait for Windows to do it?

cryptochrome
May 6, 2002, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by sjs
Would iChat and videoconferencing flow from the same software?
If the QT6 integrates with iChat?

Boy, wouldn't that take chatting to the next level?
Great for businesses too.

Well it seems to me that all these different communications methods (user info, email, IM, chat, videoconf/phone, audioconf/phone) if not all lumped under one program, then should be linked.

It only makes sense to be able to fluidly go from one communications method to another based on the parties' desire and ability to interact. You're sitting at your computer at home and send your friend a quick IM - he gets it on his mobile phone, and responds by initiating a phone conversation. A mutual friend calls in - the two of you videoconference while your friend on the road gets the audio. You send him some small files and pass access to a couple of large ones to get at his leisure at his request. And so on. To get the most out of this you have to integrate the wired and wireless phone and communications methods into the internet.

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
So you would rather Apple not develop a 3D accerated desktop API and wait for Windows to do it?

Hardly. But I think that not enough consideration is being given to pruning down the GUI so that it runs well without the need for HW upgrades.

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Hardly. But I think that not enough consideration is being given to pruning down the GUI so that it runs well without the need for HW upgrades.
I agree with you there. I'm surprised there are not more options to turn off things like the window drop shadows.
I saw an interesting thing somewhere (maybe here) on how to turn off double-buffering using one of the Developer's tools. I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight, that could make things uglier but speedier.

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
I agree with you there. I'm surprised there is not options to turn off things like the window drop shadows.
I saw an interesting thing somewhere (maybe here) on how to turn off double-buffering using one of the Developer's tools. I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight, that could make things uglier but speedier.

There are 3rd party apps that turn off shadows (ShadowKiller). I use it on B&W G3 at work and it helps...a little.

Why hasn't Apple built this in yet? Are they just trying to force people to buy new machines?

eirik
May 6, 2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
......

with 8MB of VRAM won't be able to take advantage of these features...hell the rev b models won't even be able to! Why can't they make the code more efficient rather than require faster hardware? I hate to see Apple going the route of bloatware just to pretty up the GUI.

I can't believe that Rower is the only poster to raise this point about more efficient code.

This extreme Quartz both worries and excites me. BeOS achieved a fast, rich GUI without requirements for an accelerator card. Is MacOS X so constrained with legacies that Apple cannot radically improve performance without an accelerator card?

Now as for those with about AGP x2, my impression of this Extreme Quartz news is that you won't enjoy the kind of accelerated GUI performance that those with the right video card would. I'm sure Apple is working to optimize its code so that there will be significant performance increases with Jaguar.

In an interview with some dude from nVidia, this guru said that the next battle ground would have something to do with anti-aliasing, smoothing the graphics displayed whereas frames per second and other metrics were the battlefield.

It may be that Apple is both looking to accelerate its GUI but also enhance it in terms of quality.

As for moving from vector graphics to OpenGL, I believe that statement is incorrect. Yes, Quartz will be totally OpenGL based, it sounds like. But that doesn't mean there won't be vector operations. At the least, the OpenGL API's/functions will execute as vector graphics. How can one achieve high performance without vector/matrix operations? Graphics and other multimedia just SCREAM for parallel execution.

Eirik

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 04:47 PM
Thanks for the backup, eirik.

I'm very excited about Quartz Extreme, don't get me wrong. I'm just worried they may be shooting themselves in the foot by requiring heavy duty hardware and alienating customers who bought recently expecting 10.2 to bring significant speed improvements.

Schools and other institutions can't afford to upgrade every time Apple decides to add a new feature.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by nickgold
Are Mac users a particularly whiny bunch, or what?! .....
As for the laptop owners who are complaing: Boo freaking hoo. Anyone who expects Apple to support all machines, especially those at the bottom of the scale, in every new feature release is a delusional fool. It's not like OS X will suddenly stop working. You simply won't have access to all of the possible power. Which is to be expected, if you have a lower-end machine. Get over it.



Actually, no slack jaw, I do not, nor do a lot of us own "low end" machines. I have just, and I mean in the last two months purchased two iBooks for 1499 each. Lets see, that is the top of the line except for the screen. So do yourself a favor. Shut up and get all of your facts right before you open your mouth, else someone may put their foot in it.

mark_sloan
May 6, 2002, 05:15 PM
2 questions. 1) Am I the only one that thinks it's ridiculous that you need a video card with those specs just to make the finder work at a decent speed? 2) Any word on whether this will be a free update or one of those that are too big to download and requires us to pay like $10 for a CD? (or worse, $50 or something for an update)

Fat Tony
May 6, 2002, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by porovaara
Which is it?

Good grief people you won't be able to get accelerated Quartz. That is it. The rest of the update will be fine. There are already significant speedups across the board which will help every mac out there... but c'mon. Stop whining that you bought your FIXED system Mac (ie a laptop) and it suddenly won't run FUTURE technology perfectly.

Which world do you guys live in where everything you buy is all of a sudden compatible with everything that comes along in the future? Does it really matter if it is tmrw? next month? next year?

When you buy something like a computer, you should be making your sole judgment on if it makes you happy then. Does it do everything you want it to? If you are buying based on future expectations then you are completely ignorant of the way the computer industry works.

Since I feel you are addressing my comments, like any smart consumer I don't buy a product so that it makes me happy the second I plunk down the cash and that's it. I try and make my purchases based on longevity of a product since I don't have loads of cash to throw around every 6 months. I'm not ignorant to the fact that my computer will soon become outdated. But it does matter, if I'm lead to believe by Apple employees at an Apple retail store, that no significant updates are coming when they pop up tommorow as you say. It makes a difference.

Here's the catch for me though. I saved up and purchased a top of the line setup for the 667 Ti book from the on-line store. The new 800 comes out a week later. I contact Apple to see if I can return my laptop but am told I cannot due to the fact that it is considered a "custom build" even though it is the top of the line package Apple has put together as a choice on the site. I didn't change a thing. If I had gotten either of the other two packages I could return my laptop I am told. I ask if I can return and pay the difference for the newer model but again no go. Instead I can get a 100 rebate.

I feel Apple is making hardware updates too quickly and alienating alot of loyal users. This just leaves me to believe that Apple is foremost looking for $$ for a positive quarter instead of a satisfied user base or focusing on solid software that does not require a hardware update in a 6 month timeframe.

But whatever, I'm still a mac enthusiast and hope this 32DDR is nothing but a recommend and not a requirement.

Now I'm done whining. So step off.

mhodgso2
May 6, 2002, 05:28 PM
For all you G3, older mac people (AKA people who can't use quartz extreem), how about you just pretend it doesn't exsist. Before today you had no hope of ever running X any faster than it does now. Obviously...since you bought the computer in the first place, you thought that it was cool and it ran the OS at a decent speed. So to say now that you wont be able to run it at a good speed is rediculous. X will probably never run any faster than it does now on your machine, but it will probably never run slower either. Also, you boight those computers (iMac, iBook, TiBook) knowing that it was impossible to upgrade the graphics and processor. If you want that, buy a tower. Thats just the way it is. Thats the way its always been. X will never get faster for you......but you obviously thought the speed was ok when you bought it.

Regards,
Matt

nickgold
May 6, 2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac



Actually, no slack jaw, I do not, nor do a lot of us own "low end" machines. I have just, and I mean in the last two months purchased two iBooks for 1499 each. Lets see, that is the top of the line except for the screen. So do yourself a favor. Shut up and get all of your facts right before you open your mouth, else someone may put their foot in it.

If you think an iBook qualifies as "top of the line," you are sadly mistaken. It is actually the very lowest-end Mac available, out of their available products. You can't expect it to take advantage of every single aspect of the OS, which is designed to run on a variety of machines, from old iMacs, all the way up to the newest machines.

Also, for everyone who complains about the current state of the finder, I say shove off. I have been using OS X for a long time now on my G4 450 Sawtooth, and the speed of the finder has always been perfectly acceptable to me. SUre, I will love an improvement, but to imply that the finder is currently unusable is the biggest load of crap I've ever witnessed outside of my trip to the rest room this morning. Man, was that a stinker.

mhodgso2
May 6, 2002, 05:31 PM
Did you really just say that Apple is updating too quickly??????? That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Obviously you don't look very closely at the PC market.

Regards,
Matt

eric_n_dfw
May 6, 2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by eirik
This extreme Quartz both worries and excites me. BeOS achieved a fast, rich GUI without requirements for an accelerator card. Is MacOS X so constrained with legacies that Apple cannot radically improve performance without an accelerator card?
As far as I know, the reason Quartz is slow is, mainly, because it is rendering a full screen of PDF in real-time. NeXTSTEP did this with Display PostScript (DPS) back in the late 80's but they were using a custom chip-set with DSP's so the 68030 didn't have to think about it (although they also ran DPS on x86 hardware - not sure how well that ran though).
I see the OpenGL route as a move back in that direction (like the NeXT DSP chips). I'm no expert in DPS or PDF but it's got to tax the CPU a bit to display a full, true-color display at 1024x768+ resolutions off of PDF. I'm sure optimizations for regular-old-Quartz (not Extreme)
will keep coming as will.
(Sorry this was so fragmented - I got pulled away twice while writing it! )

Newborn77
May 6, 2002, 05:39 PM
*nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.

What I get from this quote:
- ALL nVidia cards will be supported... all the ones made by Apple anyway.
- ONLY ATI Radeon cards that connect via AGP will be supported. No pre-Radeon/pre-AGP support = no iBook + older TiBook + older PowerMac support (older AGP Power Macs could be supported by doing a video card upgrade I guess).
- 32 MB VRAM recommended (doesn't mean Apple will not support cards with less VRAM... but don't count on it).

I guess this limitations are due to Apple trying to implement the technology as fast as they can without having to worry about support for "older" video cards (the same story of the Rage/Rage Pro "missing" drivers).
And of course to serve as a subtle incentive for Mac users to upgrade their "obsolete" hardware.

Just my 0,02 (non-american) cents. :D

sjs
May 6, 2002, 05:41 PM
With all the great possibilites raised by the various technologies introduced today, and how they might interact and what they might lead to, I wish this thread could go further than the name calling over whether your graphics card will be enough. Min is probably not and I just bought my computer 6 months ago.

When you think creativley about the new technologies and what could result from them there is a chance Apple is going get as much press from 10.2 as from the G4 iMac.

THINK

Fat Tony
May 6, 2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by mhodgso2
Did you really just say that Apple is updating too quickly??????? That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Obviously you don't look very closely at the PC market.

Regards,
Matt

They seem to focus on small updates(i.e. a combo drive in the Tibook and larger screen on one version of the ibook) instead of putting forth the effort into doing a complete major hardware update that doesn't need mini-updates. Lets see how long it will be before a new Ti comes out with Bluetooth built in. Late summer when Jaguar arrives in possibly 3 months??

I'm all for new hardware don't get me wrong and love reading rumors behind it. But Macs aren't cheap PCs which they churn out constantly. I'm just saying Apple should do large sweeping updates to hardware that puts them ahead of PCs and then banging out OS updates faster instead of focusing on small hardware updates.

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by mhodgso2
For all you G3, older mac people (AKA people who can't use quartz extreem), how about you just pretend it doesn't exsist. Before today you had no hope of ever running X any faster than it does now. Obviously...since you bought the computer in the first place, you thought that it was cool and it ran the OS at a decent speed. So to say now that you wont be able to run it at a good speed is rediculous. X will probably never run any faster than it does now on your machine, but it will probably never run slower either. Also, you boight those computers (iMac, iBook, TiBook) knowing that it was impossible to upgrade the graphics and processor. If you want that, buy a tower. Thats just the way it is. Thats the way its always been. X will never get faster for you......but you obviously thought the speed was ok when you bought it.

Guess what. Rev A and B PowerBook users are left out in the cold too. Guess what, buddy boy, those have G4 processors. Do those qualify as "older macs"? Please. :rolleyes:

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by nickgold


If you think an iBook qualifies as "top of the line," you are sadly mistaken. It is actually the very lowest-end Mac available, out of their available products. You can't expect it to take advantage of every single aspect of the OS, which is designed to run on a variety of machines, from old iMacs, all the way up to the newest machines.

Also, for everyone who complains about the current state of the finder, I say shove off. I have been using OS X for a long time now on my G4 450 Sawtooth, and the speed of the finder has always been perfectly acceptable to me. SUre, I will love an improvement, but to imply that the finder is currently unusable is the biggest load of crap I've ever witnessed outside of my trip to the rest room this morning. Man, was that a stinker.

Let me clarify for you. I bought the top of the line iBook. The 600 mhz G3 with the combo drive. I did not buy a refurbed 2 year old unit. Neither was my iMac. It was tops. They were both the tops of the consumber line when they were purchased. So what you are advocating is that Apple can sell a machine to someone and then a month later tell that person that the HARDWARE that they bought from Apple will not be supported by the SOFTWARE? Dude, it doesn't take a slide ruler to figure out that that logic is really screwed. I am not talking about an iMac 350 (although I really feel for those people), I am talking about a system that shipped with iPhoto on it, and X.1.3! That is why I am bent out of shape.

Oh, and your right the finder is perfectly fast when browsing a folder with oh, 100 files in column mode, or less than 20 thumbnailed photos. Lets sit, wait, watch, have a smoke and meal while I wait for the window to open and the cd to stop spinning when I open the folder with my 4,000 MP3's!

Oh, and one last thing, high school humor is not respected here.

evanmarx
May 6, 2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by mhodgso2
For all you G3, older mac people (AKA people who can't use quartz extreem), how about you just pretend it doesn't exsist. Before today you had no hope of ever running X any faster than it does now. Obviously...since you bought the computer in the first place, you thought that it was cool and it ran the OS at a decent speed. So to say now that you wont be able to run it at a good speed is rediculous. X will probably never run any faster than it does now on your machine, but it will probably never run slower either. Also, you boight those computers (iMac, iBook, TiBook) knowing that it was impossible to upgrade the graphics and processor. If you want that, buy a tower. Thats just the way it is. Thats the way its always been. X will never get faster for you......but you obviously thought the speed was ok when you bought it.

Regards,
Matt

point point point ... ten points 4 the newbie!!

(i have a 400 tibook [no quartzo extremo para mi], but what the heck, i still have my dualGhz to play around with it ... after i decided to skip the 933hz because i supposed that future os updates would need more processing power ...bingo ... btw my tibook can't also render realtime effects in finalcut3 ... wth i still love apple stuff!]:D

gjohns01
May 6, 2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by eirik


I can't believe that Rower is the only poster to raise this point about more efficient code.

This extreme Quartz both worries and excites me. BeOS achieved a fast, rich GUI without requirements for an accelerator card. Is MacOS X so constrained with legacies that Apple cannot radically improve performance without an accelerator card?

Now as for those with about AGP x2, my impression of this Extreme Quartz news is that you won't enjoy the kind of accelerated GUI performance that those with the right video card would. I'm sure Apple is working to optimize its code so that there will be significant performance increases with Jaguar.

In an interview with some dude from nVidia, this guru said that the next battle ground would have something to do with anti-aliasing, smoothing the graphics displayed whereas frames per second and other metrics were the battlefield.

It may be that Apple is both looking to accelerate its GUI but also enhance it in terms of quality.

As for moving from vector graphics to OpenGL, I believe that statement is incorrect. Yes, Quartz will be totally OpenGL based, it sounds like. But that doesn't mean there won't be vector operations. At the least, the OpenGL API's/functions will execute as vector graphics. How can one achieve high performance without vector/matrix operations? Graphics and other multimedia just SCREAM for parallel execution.

Eirik

I'm not sure if you were replying to my post or not Eirik. But I didn't mean to imply they were moving from vector graphics to OpenGL. What I meant to say was that Apple has to map Quartz calls to OpenGL. Quartz's 2D Engine is based on PDF. No graphics card I know of accelerates PDF in anyway shape or form. The only way to achieve a performance boost then is to map those 2D calls to OpenGL.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 05:54 PM
Oh, one more thing. Newborn. Do me a favor. Send us the specs on that super non-existant Nvidia PCI card for Macs. There are only a small handfull for Windows, and you know what FRIGGIN ZERO for Macs. So all of the old G4's with PCI are on the S.S. Take it Up the Rear also.

Sorry it took so long to catch this one Rower.

Choppaface
May 6, 2002, 05:56 PM
O_O ooo new quartz

does anybody know if I can jam a GeForce 4 TI in my dual 500 G4? I can't find the page to see if it's the AGP version

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Choppaface
O_O ooo new quartz

does anybody know if I can jam a GeForce 4 TI in my dual 500 G4? I can't find the page to see if it's the AGP version

Go to www.everymac.com to check all the specs for your model.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Choppaface
O_O ooo new quartz

does anybody know if I can jam a GeForce 4 TI in my dual 500 G4? I can't find the page to see if it's the AGP version

Yes, it is AGP 4x

agoldweber
May 6, 2002, 06:05 PM
I didn't see anything that said you need MORE processor power (dual 1 Ghz v. 933) to run the update--it's simply in the graphics, no?

all that aside, I'd really like to see Apple work more on the overall speed of X rather than work on more bells and whistles (iChat!?). from my informal polling, it's X's sluggishness that is keeping many people away.

quartz will improve the GUI eye candy, but what about some backbone boosting?

G4scott
May 6, 2002, 06:23 PM
:o For whomever said that iBooks do not have AGP, the new iBooks have 2x AGP with 8mb VRAM. Just letting you know.

I just hope that quartz extreme will still work on graphics cards with less memory, since Apple's page just says that those specs are reccomended. At least it would help with some of the processing...

Does anybody know how much Quartz Extreme will help the iTunes visualizer? It would be really cool to have that thing going at 100 fps :D

My idea about the Ink software: Expect a tablet computer, or something with a touch screen in the near future. Why else would Apple make software for such a small product niche when other software exists allready? Now, as far as iPhoto is concerned in this same aspect, I wonder if Apple's making a digital camera...

BTW, what ever happened to that HTML editor that came with the Mac OS X Public Beta? I could really use that right now...

Rocketman
May 6, 2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by cryptochrome
A better mail huh? I hope it imports eudora files better. I have a whole slew of semi-complictated filters, mailboxes full of highlighted files, and to top it off I keep my replies in the same boxes as the messages I recieve. (Makes going over old emails much easier, that's for sure - though I think even Eudora gets confused over them in some situations easily). When I tried to move to mail.app before the results were... unpleasant.

This post needs to be flagged by Apple internal software development and by external mail developers.

Were ANY server details released?

Rocketman

jaykk
May 6, 2002, 06:46 PM
Finally, its time to upgrade my TiBook 550 Mhz which I bought just 6 months ago to new 800 Mhz Tibook i guess..according to the spec in eveymac.com, it has got a ATI Mobility Radeon (AGP 4X) video controller with 16 MB of DDR video.. Does any one know 32 MB is a must for 10.2 upgrade?

Rocketman
May 6, 2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by nickgold
Are Mac users a particularly whiny bunch, or what?!

For every G3 tower owner complaining about not being able to use Quartz Extreme: BUY A NEW GRAPHICS CARD! If you took the time to look, it seems as if you could easily buy a new nVidia PCI graphics card, out of the ones mentioned in the footnote, and take advantage of the new graphics system.

As for the laptop owners who are complaing: Boo freaking hoo. Anyone who expects Apple to support all machines, especially those at the bottom of the scale, in every new feature release is a delusional fool. It's not like OS X will suddenly stop working. You simply won't have access to all of the possible power. Which is to be expected, if you have a lower-end machine. Get over it.

Also, for anyone saying that this wasn't a big WWDC keynote... What are you smoking? ;) Seriously, Apple just announced A RACK SERVER, people! That is perhaps the biggest news out of Apple IN YEARS.

They also finally announced how they plan to use Inkwell technology. Hardware acceleration for OS X. A new iApp. New Sherlock. And a host of other cool stuff. Uhm, this was a HUGE day in Apple history! Geez...

Well said. The server news will bring vertical market developers and applications (science, medicine, IT, etc).

The inkwell will allow those many users already using tablets in lieu of other pointing devices as primary input to visit the keybpoard less often and those with special non-character applications (chinese) to actually use a mac. There are a few chinese and asians out there wanting to use Macs folks, like 3 times as many as in the US and no peecee adoption issues because a peecee CAN'T DO IT AT ALL.

Somebody keep posting server news and links.

Rocketman

barkmonster
May 6, 2002, 06:57 PM
nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.

I've just read the whole Jaguar page on the apple site and it seems to emphasise the use of AGP cards for it work, I think that put's the idea of adding a Radeon card to an older PCI based mac to accellerate the Quartz engine out of the window but it's an amazing idea regardless of the fact some of us with older macs or lower end models can't benfit from it.

The whole interface of OS X is prerendered from the look of it, now it's actually rendered in realtime we're going to see some very cool improvements on both the speed and on the interface in general, I imagine it will seriously accellerate applications such as photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign, scrolling around a large 400% zoomed layout or image is going to be so much smoother it will be like having a whole new mac. Not that it won't also benefit us music types too, I think with the whole interface offloaded to the graphics card, once Digidesign bring out an OS X version of Protools LE and TDM the plug-in count could improve, even over the OS 9 version given the more efficient memory and cpu cycle management of OS X.

I'm probably not the only one who occassionally quits the finder in OS 9 with an applescript to give maximum CPU time to an application, with the new Quartz engine, the OS won't be using much CPU time at all and OS X will probably deliver more CPU cycles to applications, making any mac with the correct video card perform much more efficiently.

:D if you want to go faster!

nickgold
May 6, 2002, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Oh, one more thing. Newborn. Do me a favor. Send us the specs on that super non-existant Nvidia PCI card for Macs. There are only a small handfull for Windows, and you know what FRIGGIN ZERO for Macs. So all of the old G4's with PCI are on the S.S. Take it Up the Rear also.

Sorry it took so long to catch this one Rower.

It's funny how you expect the world at large to care about the fact that you won't be able to use this new feature with your computer. heheheh... Guess what... We don't! :P Nyah nyah nyah pooh pooh on YOU.

;)

Feel free to commiserate with the rest of the schmucky Mac-users out there, though, who expect to be personally catered to every time a company updates their products.

Oh and here's a free tip... Why don't you try subdividing your 4000 MP3s into subfolders, you might be able to scan through them faster with the finder.... Geez. Ignoramus?

eirik
May 6, 2002, 07:02 PM
Didn't someone from nVidia recently indicate that they would be releasing a 'kick-ass' new video card around August that would leave the rest of the video card makers in the dust?

Let's see, nVidia new video card(s) in August and Jaguar end of summer. Hmmm!

Eirik

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by nickgold


It's funny how you expect the world at large to care about the fact that you won't be able to use this new feature with your computer. heheheh... Guess what... We don't! :P Nyah nyah nyah pooh pooh on YOU.

;)

Feel free to commiserate with the rest of the schmucky Mac-users out there, though, who expect to be personally catered to every time a company updates their products.

Oh and here's a free tip... Why don't you try subdividing your 4000 MP3s into subfolders, you might be able to scan through them faster with the finder.... Geez. Ignoramus?

Well here we go. Figured this would become a flamewar. Look, I don't give a damn if you care about my problems, I don't care about yours. What I can say is that the over four million iMac G3 users, all the iBook users, Rev A and B and yes C TiBook users will be getting the shaft from Apple.

Go upgrade your damn tower and be happy, you did not get screwed. We however did IGNORAMUS! Furthermore, I don't have time to divide my MP3's into sub folders, nor should I have to. I didn't in 9, and I shouldn't in X. We (G3 owners) have been told by Apple from jump that our machines would be fully, let me say that again FULLY supported in X. Many of the original G3 owners are in the boat already, and now ALL of us will be in a few months.

The thing that I find sooo funny is everytime there is something that can be used by PC zealots to get a rise out of us, the posts start coming. Go sit in a dark room and play with your uber machine that you have. We who have just shelled out our money for tech that will be made obsolete through SOFTWARE, not hardware advances, will have to take the big one up the unpleasant highway.

So zip it, shut up, and go away. I have tried to be as constructive as I can and explain the frustration, but you are obviously to dense to get it.

gjohns01
May 6, 2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


Well here we go. Figured this would become a flamewar. Look, I don't give a damn if you care about my problems, I don't care about yours. What I can say is that the over four million iMac G3 users, all the iBook users, Rev A and B and yes C TiBook users will be getting the shaft from Apple.

Go upgrade your damn tower and be happy, you did not get screwed. We however did IGNORAMUS! Furthermore, I don't have time to divide my MP3's into sub folders, nor should I have to. I didn't in 9, and I shouldn't in X. We (G3 owners) have been told by Apple from jump that our machines would be fully, let me say that again FULLY supported in X. Many of the original G3 owners are in the boat already, and now ALL of us will be in a few months.

The thing that I find sooo funny is everytime there is something that can be used by PC zealots to get a rise out of us, the posts start coming. Go sit in a dark room and play with your uber machine that you have. We who have just shelled out our money for tech that will be made obsolete through SOFTWARE, not hardware advances, will have to take the big one up the unpleasant highway.

So zip it, shut up, and go away. I have tried to be as constructive as I can and explain the frustration, but you are obviously to dense to get it.

Fully supported in software development land means that functionally everything works. Which it does/will. It doesn't mean you will get optimal performance. I'm running X on a Beige G3. It is fully supported. It works. That's just how it works in the computer world. Software advances require hardware advances and vice versa. Like I said in a previous post, Apple had to make Quartz Extreme. It was the only way to get decent performance out of the graphics subsystem.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by gjohns01


Fully supported in software development land means that functionally everything works. Which it does/will. It doesn't mean you will get optimal performance. I'm running X on a Beige G3. It is fully supported. It works. That's just how it works in the computer world. Software advances require hardware advances and vice versa. Like I said in a previous post, Apple had to make Quartz Extreme. It was the only way to get decent performance out of the graphics subsystem.

I agree, and no offense, but dude, how old is your machine? Mine is less than two months old. ;)

gjohns01
May 6, 2002, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


I agree, and no offense, but dude, how old is your machine? Mine is less than two months old. ;)

LOL. I honestly don't know. I got it from my old job 2 years ago. I guess it's 3 years old. Haven't gotten around to getting a new Mac. Most of my development work has gone server-side, so I'm PC bound now.

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by nickgold
It's funny how you expect the world at large to care about the fact that you won't be able to use this new feature with your computer. heheheh... Guess what... We don't! :P Nyah nyah nyah pooh pooh on YOU.

;)

Feel free to commiserate with the rest of the schmucky Mac-users out there, though, who expect to be personally catered to every time a company updates their products.

Oh and here's a free tip... Why don't you try subdividing your 4000 MP3s into subfolders, you might be able to scan through them faster with the finder.... Geez. Ignoramus?

Listen, flamebait, try to keep things at least at the high school level (if you can). Nyah nyah nyah?!? WTF!?!?!? Are you 5 years old?

Who's this "we" that you refer to? Your Daddy who's buying the machine for you? Plunk down your own hard-earned cash and see how you feel.

This isn't about being personally catered to (although a company who makes the hardware AND the software could at least make an attempt). This is about Apple choosing to bump hardware requirements rather than rewrite their bloated code.

So please go piss your bed somewhere else, infant.

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Listen, flamebait, try to keep things at least at the high school level (if you can). Nyah nyah nyah?!? WTF!?!?!? Are you 5 years old?

Who's this "we" that you refer to? Your Daddy who's buying the machine for you? Plunk down your own hard-earned cash and see how you feel.

This isn't about being personally catered to (although a company who makes the hardware AND the software could at least make an attempt). This is about Apple choosing to bump hardware requirements rather than rewrite their bloated code.

So please go piss your bed somewhere else, infant.

Scene: Bottom of the ninth, two outs, bases loaded, Rower at the plate. The count is three balls and two strikes. Smart people down by three runs...

The pitch a hanging curve and Rower swings... It's a long drive to deep center field. It looks like a homer Simpson, because the pitcher just went Dolt!

Thanks for checking my back Rower.

arn
May 6, 2002, 09:02 PM
let's keep it civil guys....

arn

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Scene: Bottom of the ninth, two outs, bases loaded, Rower at the plate. The count is three balls and two strikes. Smart people down by three runs...

The pitch a hanging curve and Rower swings... It's a long drive to deep center field. It looks like a homer Simpson, because the pitcher just went Dolt!

Thanks for checking my back Rower.

I'm always good for a clutch tater. :D

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by arn
let's keep it civil guys....

arn

Sorry, arn. I'm doing my best, but the guy is asking for it.

I mean, come on..."nyah nyah nyah"? Back on the playground that would get you in a world of hurt! :D ;) :p

shadowfax0
May 6, 2002, 09:16 PM
You know CUPS was mentioned in there, and I am supremely interested in this, this is the missing link for home publishers, etc etc. Anyone have word on it?

Backtothemac
May 6, 2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by arn
let's keep it civil guys....

arn

Sorry Arn. Sometimes they try to hard for us to resist. :p

DakotaGuy
May 6, 2002, 09:48 PM
I own 2 G3 systems. An iMac DV 400 that is 2 years old and an iBook 600 that is 4 months old. I think that 10.2 will run just fine on these machines. It will not get all the benefits that some of the Brand new towers and just released iMacs and Powerbooks will, but chances are there will be quite a bit of optmizing that will benefit all Mac users. Apple will not make this OS "uncompatible" with systems that do not have the right video card or enough memory. I am happy with the speed of OSX on my machines right now. They were both consumer entry level machines and I never expected them to shake the world, but to run fairly quick and be very dependable, which they both are.

Even though I am stuck with Rage 128's in the machines I will upgrade when OSX 10.2 comes out. Although the speed may not jump on the unsupported machines I think you will find better features and slightly more kick. Just my two cents. I am thinking of a new iMac by next winter, but I will keep my iBook for a couple more years and I will get by just fine.

G4scott
May 6, 2002, 10:06 PM
Ok. Thanks to some smart people here, I've been enlightened...

Even though Extreme Quartz may not work on our precious iBooks, the Quartz rendering system still works, doesn't it? Do you really expect a 8mb, 2x AGP mobile graphics "controller" to be able to do justice to quartz in full screen glory like a GeForce 4 Ti could? Quartz still works, doesn't it? Now, I am a little dissapointed at these high requirements, but do you expect an iBook to run like a DP 1Ghz G4 with OS X? I certainly dont.

Now, take note that the specs on Apple's page just says recommended. Extreme Quartz will probably just be controlled by a system preference pane, and have options to turn it on, or off, or it may just be on by default, and will try to do as much as it can with any graphics card, but it won't fly unless it's using one with the specified specifications (funky wording, huh?)

Now, those of you who call brand new ibooks low-end machines, you can just go sit with your 800mhz TiBook, or DP 1Ggz G4 and do your work, or play your games... We bought our computers with what we could. If I had 3200 bucks to spend, I'd get a TiBook, but I don't, so I have an iBook. It is only natural, that when you buy the top of the line model of a computer, that you'd expect for it to be supported for at least a year, or until new models are released (which for the iBooks, will probably be soon). I'm sure that anyone (even you...) would be somewhat dissapointed if their brand-spankin' new iBook (that they worked hard in order to earn...) wasn't fast enough, or didn't have a good enough graphics card to run this wonderful new technology.

Now, I don't expect my iBook to do everything, so that's why i'm only slightly dissapointed. It's natural. I'm happy with my ibook the way it is now. It works fine, and i really don't use it much for anything but school and the internet...

Anyways, back to puttiing this thread back on topic...

I think that the new Inkwell software is paving the way for touch/write screens on future Mac products, whether it is a PDA (which I think is somewhat unlikely), or an iBook with a screen that swivels, and folds back so that the screen is exposed when closed and you can write on it, and use it like a tablet Mac (i'll try not to say PC...) I believe this is the more likely thing for Apple to do, since the software is for the desktop operating system. If it were for a PDA, I don't think that they'd release handwriting recognition software like this... Besides, why else would Apple release such software for such a small hardware niche? If you ask me, all signs are pointing towards a Tablet Mac in the near future... (can you say "iBook with a touch/write screen tablet function"...)

My 2

G4scott
May 6, 2002, 10:14 PM
Ahh. I feel stupid...

I mean "Ink" when I said "Inkwell"

The name of Apple's new software is "Ink"

Just wanted to straighten something out. I think Inkwell was for the Newton OS. I'm not sure, but if someone could verify, that would be great...

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 10:53 PM
it definitely sucks that folks with 2 month old ibooks will not be able to fully utilize the upgrades. i hope that the recommended graphics card is a bit higher than truly needed, for all your sakes...

also, just because jobs didn't get into the nitty gritty, isn't it relatively safe to think that they would have continued tweaking things that woudl speed up the os overall? i mean, for the most part with each .1.x update one aspect or another has gotten better or faster, other than just new/added features. so i'd bet that even without the q. extreme it will be faster.

regardless, i'd like to have seen a fully supported (at least supported by ALL currently available macs and the ones within the last year or so) upgraded system... but who knows, perhaps this just wasn't possible...

nickgold... just an idiot. not worth my/our time.

nickgold
May 6, 2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
nickgold... just an idiot. not worth my/our time.

Uh, okay, "jelloshotsrule."

;)

Listen, everyone who is wetting their panties over this is obviously a dork. If you can honestly say to yourself that your iBook or whatnot sucks, and you just can't stand it now that it's not fully supported by every feature of OS X, go sell it on ebay and get a peecee. You will obviously enjoy its vastly superior operating system, as opposed to OS X, which runs well enough for most folks, but not you.

If you are a professional who uses your Mac for hardcore apps, and an iBook is all you can afford, and you feel a little hurt about the fact that you won't be able to eek a little more performance out of your system -- I feel your pain. Apple does offer loans -- maybe it's something to consider for your next purchase?

If you are a lame little kid who wants to whine about the fact that your completely disorganized CD of 4000 pirated MP3s doesn't scroll quite as beautifully as you would like in the finder -- get a life, or a girlfriend, or something. Friends? Some personal satisfaction in your life outside of the scroll speed of your computer's freaking windows? Geez Louise!

*rant on*

Anybody who expects any corporation, including Apple, to look out for their personal needs is a very ignorant soul indeed. Capitalism does not exist to serve you. It exists to make some people wealthy. That is the American way, and if you don't like it, do something constructive about it. But to piss and moan as if you expect corporations to serve every last need of every last niche market segment is simply laughable. For goodness' sakes, many corporations make decisions that screw over people in serious ways every day. Like oh, such-and-such corporation sold your fascist government weapons, which allowed them to terorize the populous? I feel bad for those people. They are getting screwed by corporations. Your stupid Finder isn't as freaking optimized as it could be? Are you really that self-absorbed? Complain about something that's worth complaining about, otherwise, shaddup.
*rant off*

jelloshotsrule
May 6, 2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by nickgold
Uh, okay, "jelloshotsrule."

;)


thanks for the wink. but i'll pass buddy.

when people pay apple 1500+ dollars they can expect something in return.

i agree that it can't be expected for ALL systems to run everything perfectly. if that were the case, there would be no separation and thus no point of getting a high end computer.

however, it is unfortunate that in this case, the people that could most use the os speed boost is the people with slightly slower/older computers, which are the ones that won't optimize the new quartz changes..

eirik
May 6, 2002, 11:40 PM
I don't believe we have to have the latest wiz-bang video card that you'd be left in the cold. The reason for this is that Quartz Extreme is about re-writing Quartz in terms entirely of OpenGL. So, ANY video card that handles OpenGL should give you some more kick. Otherwise, your CPU will have to handle the OpenGL operations just as it is today with the present OpenGL-less Quartz.

SJ offered the WWDC audience a very, very impressive demonstration with all of the 2-d and/or 3-d objects moving in the foreground with a DVD playing in a background. All this with no visible jitter!!! My current Windoze2K Dell Dimension XPS T500 (500 MHz PIII) can't even handle a 400MB .avi without jittering like a crack junkie with withdraw. I have to close out all of my applications and set the .avi player that I use to a high process priority.

So, if one does not have a 4x AGP with 32 MB of DDR, you're still going to have some jitters if you run to many things at the same time. If my assumption about OpenGL simply executing on your CPU is true, then it sounds to me that Quartz Extreme simply means that if you want jitter free, anti-aliased, beautiful graphics, you'd need a higher-end Mac.

I don't feel you guys that bought iBooks or whatever fairly recently have been screwed because I BELIEVE the only screwing that you'll get is that your machine won't render your graphics as well as a kick-ass $3k machine. OpenGL should still run on your CPU. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Eirik

PS. I'm not looking for more flames in this thread. I'm hopeful that my supposition that the OpenGL will simply run off whatever can execute OpenGL. Your video card may do it. Then again, if your video card really sucks compared to these 'kick-ass' cards, maybe you don't want your Mac to off-load OpenGL execution. Well, this turned out to be a ****ed posting!!!

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by nickgold
Uh, okay, "jelloshotsrule."

;)

Listen, everyone who is wetting their panties over this is obviously a dork. If you can honestly say to yourself that your iBook or whatnot sucks, and you just can't stand it now that it's not fully supported by every feature of OS X, go sell it on ebay and get a peecee. You will obviously enjoy its vastly superior operating system, as opposed to OS X, which runs well enough for most folks, but not you.

If you are a professional who uses your Mac for hardcore apps, and an iBook is all you can afford, and you feel a little hurt about the fact that you won't be able to eek a little more performance out of your system -- I feel your pain. Apple does offer loans -- maybe it's something to consider for your next purchase?

If you are a lame little kid who wants to whine about the fact that your completely disorganized CD of 4000 pirated MP3s doesn't scroll quite as beautifully as you would like in the finder -- get a life, or a girlfriend, or something. Friends? Some personal satisfaction in your life outside of the scroll speed of your computer's freaking windows? Geez Louise!

*rant on*

Anybody who expects any corporation, including Apple, to look out for their personal needs is a very ignorant soul indeed. Capitalism does not exist to serve you. It exists to make some people wealthy. That is the American way, and if you don't like it, do something constructive about it. But to piss and moan as if you expect corporations to serve every last need of every last niche market segment is simply laughable. For goodness' sakes, many corporations make decisions that screw over people in serious ways every day. Like oh, such-and-such corporation sold your fascist government weapons, which allowed them to terorize the populous? I feel bad for those people. They are getting screwed by corporations. Your stupid Finder isn't as freaking optimized as it could be? Are you really that self-absorbed? Complain about something that's worth complaining about, otherwise, shaddup.
*rant off*

Unbelievable...you manage to dance around the issue with each new post. Really that's quite an achievement.

So what's your take on PowerBooks...and the fact that your Daddy always buys you a new one, and you don't need to worry about shelling out the dough yourself?

OS X updates should include software optimizations, not new hardware requirements. Grow up.

mhodgso2
May 7, 2002, 12:08 AM
Come on dude, you're making a fool of yourself. How can you call people losers for complaining about what their macs can or cannot do when you are complaining about the complaining that they are doing? I don't know what your problem is but if you have some sort of valid point why don't you try to make it instead of just ranting.

Oh, and Rower, I know about the TiBooks, I have one. It s a bummer but I am happy with it the way it is. I run dual monitors and edit in Final Cut with little or no render time and that it pretty impressive in my book.

I think we should try to start looking at the QE thing as a high end bonus for people who are really serious about doing graphic or video work. People who get paid to do that kind of work should really have a tower anyway. Lets all just look at it as an add-on to the pro line and leave it at that. Besides, in a year almost everyone with G3's will have a new computer and everyone will be glad to have QE making their computing experience so nice and fluid!!!!! I know I will!!!

Regards,
Matt

P.S. if Apple made it so everyone could use QE and it improved everyone's system they would lose a TON of sales! We don't want that! Let not discourage their inovation.
P.S.S. Rower, what makes you think the code is bloated? Just wondering

Newborn77
May 7, 2002, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by G4scott
:o For whomever said that iBooks do not have AGP, the new iBooks have 2x AGP with 8mb VRAM...

Right. They have 2x AGP but unfortunately the graphics controller is a ATI RAGE Mobility 128 which is pre-Radeon :(

I own a 2002 iBook and I would really like to see the technology (Quartz Extreme) implemented for it. This laptop is only 2 months old. I don't to start thinking about a replacement already just because of this.

But who knows... maybe Apple will support older chips in some time :rolleyes:

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by mhodgso2
P.S.S. Rower, what makes you think the code is bloated? Just wondering

Maybe "bloated" isn't the best term, but it's the most common one when referring to slow running code.

The high overhead of the Aqua graphics slow down the overall speed of the system. I would have been happier with code optimization over higher hardware requirements.

pwfletcher
May 7, 2002, 12:28 AM
I went to the apple store this evening and bought a new Ti PB 800. My mint condition 3 month old TiPB 667 is now for sale on ebay for $1500. Yes, I'm pissed (a $2k loss in 3 mo) ... but if you want to have the latest and greatest toys, you should expect to upgrade once or twice per year regardless of whether you are on the Windows or Mac platform.

buffsldr
May 7, 2002, 12:42 AM
Here we go. Why do peeps get so emotional over a computer web site? Relax everyone. Nickgold has some very solid points. His delivery is harsh and some get offended.

What you call "getting the shaft", apple calls "Give'em a reason to upgrade". And yes, there will always be the guy standing there as the doors close one inch in front of him. And in this case... it is you. BacktotheMac.... I remember you. You posted a thread about old powerbook vs ibook. You thought real hard about your purchase, now you gotta live with it. I wish your money was better spent, and i really am sorry you cant use the new feature, but as one already said, you knew you couldnt upgrade it. And what should apple have done, not offer the new feature until 32 mb video was standard on systems for X months (and who defines X? their marketing department, or who?).

One of the first things peeps noticed was that the video card was not fully being used for window resizing. Now apple is getting that done, some can take advantage of it, some cant. More will in the future. Please do not consider their business decisions as screwing you.

nickgold
May 7, 2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
however, it is unfortunate that in this case, the people that could most use the os speed boost is the people with slightly slower/older computers, which are the ones that won't optimize the new quartz changes..

Touche...

nickgold
May 7, 2002, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
So what's your take on PowerBooks...and the fact that your Daddy always buys you a new one, and you don't need to worry about shelling out the dough yourself?

The only computer I own is a 450 G4 Sawtooth that, yes, me "papy" bought me for a college computer. It ruled at the time, but was starting to get a little long int he tooth if you know what I mean. But now I will be able to upgrade my Rage 128 AGP card for a few hundred clams, and be able to get a serious performance boost. (By the way, you don't see me whining that a few monthsafter I got the system, Apple started offering the Rage 128 Pro AGP w/ the Sawtooth systems, and all I got was a lousy Rage 128. Boo freaking hoo!)

What am I saying?

HAHAHAH

:cool:

Grokgod
May 7, 2002, 01:13 AM
Well this has been a very interesting thread to say the least.
I feel that I can add something to it.

Firstly.
iBooks are not top of the line. They have the G3 chip in it.
Everyone know that this is an old chip.
Having the newest iBook does not make it top of the line,
It has a G3 chip in it!

If anybody thought that they were buying an iBook which would run ANY version of OSX fast and snappy.
Then they dont understand the current Apple situation and that is why they own an ibook.
These are low cost units and not designed to bring a premium in speed.
There is no reason for these haples people to be angry, they should instead try to understand the computer world better before they make a purchase!.

The call for higher end graphics cards is not strange in the least.
There are certain chips that can do certain types of work.

Apple is saying that Extreme will only work on certain chips.
This is similar to what happens when new games appear and demand certain effects from graphic chips to produce certain effects.
Actually 32 megs is low if you take into consideration what is possible in a more objective light and I fear that soon 32 which is now the minimum, will soon be as valueless as 16 when 64 becomes the new standard.
Apple states that for OPTIMUM performance use 32 megs.
So any agp graphics chip that can run the code will work, the more ram the better, simple enough.

Remember that this quartz extreme is not to appear for quite some time and that standards can change very easily! Apple will not come out and say that 32 is too low when that is all the newest powerbooks have!

I am certain that 64megs is really what the min will be!

I am quite amazed by the fact that a $3000 computer can be rendered as sadly obsolete by the company that creates both the hardware and the OS.
There has been an error in planning this all out.
So, I am not interested in iBooks being useless because I think that they always were, and those that bought these units have made an error in judgement. You just dont buy a computer with an old CPU that cant run a new os properly. If your poor then you need to wait or get a Pcheese.

BUT to tell me that a new Ti, the 667. will not be up to par so soon,
POints out to me a huge error in planning.

I think that this error was made a long time ago.
This whole affair is happening because of Apple hardware problems that have been around for a long time now.
Apple is going through a hardware crisis, that is obvious. If apple was at the same hareware as Pcheese, we would not be having these threads.

Most of us know this and is why we all try to wait it out as long as we can before buying. The cost, hardware, performance ratio is not good right now.
Due to hardware and the new OS problems.

And that is going to create issues for a lot of people who are not aware of the situation and buy when it is unwise.

So to recap this long winded diatribe.

iBook buyers are dumb and for calling our attention to it, are even more so!
Apple is crawling out of a hardware problem that has been going on for years, when they need it more than ever with the new OS.
We all know that already.
$3000 Ti books can be useless very quickly!
Is this a good time to buy?

Hell no! Send a message to Apple!
" Get your hardware together or we will not buy anything "

Suddenly you will see your DDRam and Quartz increases with new huge speed bumps. Consumers have the power if they know how to use it!

nickgold
May 7, 2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Newborn77
I own a 2002 iBook and I would really like to see the technology (Quartz Extreme) implemented for it. This laptop is only 2 months old. I don't to start thinking about a replacement already just because of this.

I suppose you bought your iBook dissatisfied with its performance, fully aware of the eventual release of Quartz Extreme, and were misled by Apple into believing that the system you purchased would support it. And now that Quartz Extreme has been announced, and it does not in fact support your system, your iBook has gone permanently stale and is utterly unusable.

BZZZZzzzzt! Let's step out of bizzarro-world for a sec, shall we?

Your systems all run OS X in an acceptable fashion, especially if you're not a dolt who has 4000 MP3s in a single folder on a CD-ROM and feels a little put off that the Finder doesn't scroll as well as you think it ought to. OS X will continually be optimized and extended, and your systems will no doubt be able to take advantage of many of these new enhancements (Bluetooth, new iApps, QT6, etc. etc. etc.)

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by nickgold
The only computer I own is a 450 G4 Sawtooth that, yes, me "papy" bought me for a college computer. It ruled at the time, but was starting to get a little long int he tooth if you know what I mean. But now I will be able to upgrade my Rage 128 AGP card for a few hundred clams, and be able to get a serious performance boost. (By the way, you don't see me whining that a few monthsafter I got the system, Apple started offering the Rage 128 Pro AGP w/ the Sawtooth systems, and all I got was a lousy Rage 128. Boo freaking hoo!)

What am I saying?

HAHAHAH

:cool:

My god! Your stupidity grows with each new post! I can actually see your IQ dropping with each and every one. Quick, stop now before it spreads to someone else!

Did you not see my very specific reference to PowerBooks? You can read, can't you?

What do you say to the guys who bought a "top of the line" machine two weeks ago, only to find that Apple has pretty much said, "Sorry, go buy a new one."

Let me spell this out for you:

Tower == upgradable
Laptop != upgradable

Did that make it through your thick skull?


PS. It's obvious that you don't have to pay for your own machine, but I'm pretty impressed you actually admitted it.

nickgold
May 7, 2002, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Did you not see my very specific reference to PowerBooks? You can read, can't you?

What do you say to the guys who bought a "top of the line" machine two weeks ago, only to find that Apple has pretty much said, "Sorry, go buy a new one."


What part of "32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance" don't you dunderheads understand? Since when in computerese does "recommended for optimum performance" mean "absolutely required?" The 550 and 667 TiBook owners WILL INDEED be able to take advantage of Quartz Extreme, just not as much as people with 32+ MB AGP Radeon cards. That would stand to reason, somewhat, wouldnt it?

I am just wondering whether I should go for an overpriced Mac Radeon AGP 32MB (they are about twice as expensive as the PC versions), or the way-beyond-my-needs Radeon 8500. I will probably try to find a secondhand original Mac AGP Radeon, or hope that ATI gets smart and releases a more middle-of-the-road Radeon AGP 2x/4x board at some point in the not-too-distant future.

jelloshotsrule
May 7, 2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by nickgold
I suppose you bought your iBook dissatisfied with its performance, fully aware of the eventual release of Quartz Extreme, and were misled by Apple into believing that the system you purchased would support it. And now that Quartz Extreme has been announced, and it does not in fact support your system, your iBook has gone permanently stale and is utterly unusable.

BZZZZzzzzt! Let's step out of bizzarro-world for a sec, shall we?

Your systems all run OS X in an acceptable fashion, especially if you're not a dolt who has 4000 MP3s in a single folder on a CD-ROM and feels a little put off that the Finder doesn't scroll as well as you think it ought to. OS X will continually be optimized and extended, and your systems will no doubt be able to take advantage of many of these new enhancements (Bluetooth, new iApps, QT6, etc. etc. etc.)

i think you make some decent points here. but you put your foot in your mouth when you start talking down to people who are upset. it's alright for them to be upset, whether they "should" be or not. if you spoke your feelings like a mature adult i'm sure plenty of people would respect it and show you respect in turn. but instead you come across as an ass. just use the intelligence you have to use it a bit more wisely and maybe enlighten some people in the meantime.

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by nickgold
What part of "32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance" don't you dunderheads understand? Since when in computerese does "recommended for optimum performance" mean "absolutely required?" The 550 and 667 TiBook owners WILL INDEED be able to take advantage of Quartz Extreme, just not as much as people with 32+ MB AGP Radeon cards. That would stand to reason, somewhat, wouldnt it?

Yes, I agree with you there. It doesn't mean "absolutely required", it just means a top-of-the-line machine two weeks ago will have much poorer performance compared to the new ones.

The major complaint is that this seems to be a blatant move on Apple's part to coerce people into buying new hardware when their current hardware is more than adequate.

It also looks like PCI cards are left in the dust...

jelloshotsrule
May 7, 2002, 02:11 AM
it's a reasonable request to want the current hardware line to have totally optimized performance for system software...

on the same note though, rower (and other ibook folks), keep in mind that apple "recommends" a g4 to run os x.

so maybe if you think about the graphics cards in that sense for quartz extreme... maybe you won't be as upset.

either way though, i hear where you're coming from. but i don't think it's totally unreasonable. just not ideal.

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
it's a reasonable request to want the current hardware line to have totally optimized performance for system software...

on the same note though, rower (and other ibook folks), keep in mind that apple "recommends" a g4 to run os x.

so maybe if you think about the graphics cards in that sense for quartz extreme... maybe you won't be as upset.

either way though, i hear where you're coming from. but i don't think it's totally unreasonable. just not ideal.

I'm afraid that I've been coming off a little too harshly this whole time. I'm really excited about the changes in 10.2. I'm really looking forward to how they'll improve performance on the recommended machines.

I just think Apple could have done a little more to appease users of older technology. And it's sad that "older" in this case applies to two week old PowerBooks and PCI PowerMacs...

jelloshotsrule
May 7, 2002, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I just think Apple could have done a little more to appease users of older technology. And it's sad that "older" in this case applies to two week old PowerBooks and PCI PowerMacs...

i agree. but again, i don't think it necessarily means "old" as much as not optimal. i mean, the g3 has never been recommended for os x in general. just as the non-high end graphics cards won't be recommended. i'm sure there will be a good amount of performance increase with any decent card (whether 32 or not) and probably just in general they will have improved the speed somewhat.

guess we have to wait and see what it actually feels like in real life computing...

nickgold
May 7, 2002, 02:32 AM
Is, "Finder doesn't scroll my single-foldered CD-ROM with 4000 MP3s as nicely as I think it should" the problem with OS X? I am using 10.1.4 on a 450 Sawtooth that me papy bought me (bless his heart), and I have used different revs of OS X on all sorts of other machines, from dual-800s to ibook 500s (rev1 I believe). This is in a small hi-tech company environment. And I was never like, Hmmmm, OS X is seriously blowing on this thing. Okay, maybe a few times... ;) But really, isn't it pretty darn kicka$$ as is? Obviously it can't be as 100% dedicated to single tasks as OS 9. That's the whole point. The fact is, it is now up to par. Continued graphics system optimization is only a plus, even if every last user can't take advtantage of it.

irmongoose
May 7, 2002, 03:18 AM
how can any of you NOT be excited abuot this whole thing? It's showing that OS X has come up to where OS 9 was, and all it needs is a little speed. And with Jaguar, they are finally taking us to the future. Meaning.. something we haven't seen before. WAKE UP! The ride is just about to start!

And oh, I just realized another thing. I don't think iChat is gonna have any other service available... only AIM. You know why? Because it was all part of the contract with AOL/Time back when Time had the whole iMac-on-the-front-cover thingy. Time did that, and Apple would integrate an AIM-running app in the next major release of OS X.

And those of you with the ibooks, don't worry, there's still 4 months for Apple to come up with some way to integrate the OpenGl thing into teh older machines. That's why they had a PREVIEW release, and that's also why they are not gonna release it for the next 4 months.


so hang on tight, Steve is gonna take us to the FUTURE!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D





irmongoose

foniks2020
May 7, 2002, 05:04 AM
In the Etcetera section you'll see that: "Et Cetera
The Finder features spring-loaded folders to aid in navigation and is multi-threaded for superior performance... "

Multi-threaded means much faster Finder. Regardless of how the rendering is accomplished many of the normal UI functions are going to be much improved in performance over 10.1

How much does it really take to render windows really? Seems like it's been getting done quite well for a while w/o Quartz Extreme.. I do think they should provide support for all graphics cards that support OpenGL routines though, not just 4xAGP.. if GL is supported why shouldn't it benefit the OS?

Also about speed, I heard a while back that Apple is including super optimized (assembler) math routines for the PPC with 10.2 which should also add to all Mac user's performance quite a bit. This was something that didn't make it over from OS 9.0 until now and will be a part of the Darwin kernel instead of something Apple only. Also makes sense when you think about the optimized Java VM for the rack mount servers, etc.

Anyways, it looks like all the evidence points to significant performance boosts across the board w/ QE more like a 4G tech that will benefit 4G (or should that read G4) machines.

eirik
May 7, 2002, 07:09 AM
I'm wondering if SJ did QE (Quartz Extreme) justice in his announcement. As mentioned before, some nVidia guru recently talked of the next wave in video cards, which BTW begins in August... hmmm.

From what my faulty memory can reassemble, he said something to the effect that video cards would start addressing anti-aliasing and other characteristics for higher quality visualization that haven't really been addressed by video cards as much as frames per second and number of this shape per second blah, blah.

So my friends, I believe QE is not just about speed; its also about improved quality!

On another issue, QE support on machines with less than recommended video cards. I earlier wrote a rambling post on this. I started out stating that anything that can handle OpenGL would make your QE experience better.

But this assumes that many hands makes light work. That is, if your less than stellar video card can only handle 30% of the QE load without latency and overload, then the other 70% of the QE load would be allocated to your CPU as it is now.

So, since the cards aren't helping now, we'd see an improvement right? Maybe not. What if QE's OpenGL's acceleration means 'all or nothing'? That is, if a video card can handle OpenGL then it has to handle all of QE's OpenGL, the CPU would not share the burden. This, if true, could be awful and would undoubtedly require some controls to ensure that underperforming video cards simply don't engage QE. Why? Simply because in the example in the paragraph above, the video card could only handle 30% of the QE load without becoming overwhelmed, as illustrated by the obvious latency. This example also suggests that your CPU would be capable of handling more load (most likely would be a G4, BTW). So, if a video card with a little thingy, should not enter QE, if this feared all or nothing scenario is true, the outcome would not be pleasing.

Hmmm! [scratches his whisker covered chin]

Eirik

Backtothemac
May 7, 2002, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by nickgold
If you are a lame little kid who wants to whine about the fact that your completely disorganized CD of 4000 pirated MP3s doesn't scroll quite as beautifully as you would like in the finder -- get a life, or a girlfriend, or something. Friends? Some personal satisfaction in your life outside of the scroll speed of your computer's freaking windows? Geez Louise!


Is, "Finder doesn't scroll my single-foldered CD-ROM with 4000 MP3s as nicely as I think it should" the problem with OS X? I am using 10.1.4 on a 450 Sawtooth that me papy bought me (bless his heart), and I have used different revs of OS X on all sorts of other machines, from dual-800s to ibook 500s (rev1 I believe). This is in a small hi-tech company environment. And I was never like, Hmmmm, OS X is seriously blowing on this thing. Okay, maybe a few times... ;) But really, isn't it pretty darn kicka$$ as is? Obviously it can't be as 100% dedicated to single tasks as OS 9. That's the whole point. The fact is, it is now up to par. Continued graphics system optimization is only a plus, even if every last user can't take advtantage of it.

Arn, sorry for this before I even start.
First lets get something straight toolboy. I have a wife, child and a wonderful job. I don't sit around and play with my G4 450 that me "pappy" bought me. I have, unlike you, worked for every friggin thing that I have ever gotten in life. You should try it sometime, it really is refreshing to actually support yourself.

Second
Don't run around spouting off at the mouth about "pirated" anything. You know nothing about me, or my moral character. I don't know how old you are, or where you are from, but you will find that there are things you just don't do in life, and you will learn that lesson one day. You see here in the South, in person, running your mouth like you have been, somebody would have already given you that lesson.

Third
I am not running around saying that I am going to a PC, or that Apple blows chunks, or that I hate the Macs in my family. I am very excited about Quartz Extreme and think that it is a MUST HAVE upgrade. I am also saying that the G3 users out there who have been told by Apple since jump that there computers would be FULLY supported, have been lied to.

Now let me say that slowly for your dense head. T-H-E-Y H-A-V-E B-E-E-N
L-I-E-D T-O. There did you get that? It really is not that difficult of a concept, and I bet that you would have a different opinion on this if you had just purchased a Ti book with YOUR OWN FRIGGIN MONEY just two weeks ago.

Fourth
No the iBook is no the top of the line Mac notebook, however, a lot of people have purchase the 'top of the line' iBook. The fact is that it is frustrating to know that your machine will never get faster at handling X. Now berfore you go all stupid on us, X to X.1 was sooooo much faster. Each X.1.X release has been a little faster. Thus, we (G3 owners) have long thought that 10.2 would be much faster with a non bloated code (thanks Rower :p ). Now for whatever reason your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top, and I know it is hard for you to pay attention with the drool running out of the corner of your mouth, but please for all of our sanity, would you just try?

Fifth
I am satisfied with the speed of X. In fact, I think it is "snappy" on my iBooks, however, I think it could be improved when going through folders with large amounts of files. Like the over 2,000 pictures of my family that I have on the machine. Oh, and one more thing toolboy. It is not the scroll speed, that is fine. It is the 10 minutes that the CD icon (not an actual CD dolt, who in the hell can fit 4,000 mp3's on a CD?) spins before you can scroll the folder that is the problem.

Now, I am done, you are a geek. Get a life and let people vent without having an inmature child provoke a flamewar.

Again, sorry Arn, but me and Rower both laid off, and this guy just kept coming. Looks like we have a new Cyrus in the hizouse!

buffsldr
May 7, 2002, 08:55 AM
C'mon, BacktotheMac.... Who said anything about your moral character? I think it is your morale that is low.

But anyway, the fact you have 4000 mp3s in one folder without subfolders does lend itself to the idea that you did not use itunes to import from cds. But even if you did, I dont judge you, bro.

cryptochrome
May 7, 2002, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Rocketman

The inkwell will allow those many users already using tablets in lieu of other pointing devices as primary input to visit the keybpoard less often and those with special non-character applications (chinese) to actually use a mac. There are a few chinese and asians out there wanting to use Macs folks, like 3 times as many as in the US and no peecee adoption issues because a peecee CAN'T DO IT AT ALL.


Assuming, of course, that inkwell can recognize glyph-based (or even just non-roman) alphabets. Being able to reliably interpret a set of ~100 characters is one thing - recognizing thousands upon thousands of separate characters is another. I'm not saying it can't, but you shouldn't assume so.

Backtothemac
May 7, 2002, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by buffsldr
C'mon, BacktotheMac.... Who said anything about your moral character? I think it is your morale that is low.

But anyway, the fact you have 4000 mp3s in one folder without subfolders does lend itself to the idea that you did not use itunes to import from cds. But even if you did, I dont judge you, bro.

Hey, believe me my morale is fine, I just can't stand illogical people. Anyway. They came from my old Athlon system. Therefore to make things easier, I placed everything in one folder so that I did not miss, or forget anything on the Athlon before I sold it to become (lighting strikes and thunder)

..(in loud voice like God talking) BACKTOTHEMAC!

:p ;) :p :D :cool: :p

gjohns01
May 7, 2002, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by foniks2020
In the Etcetera section you'll see that: "Et Cetera
The Finder features spring-loaded folders to aid in navigation and is multi-threaded for superior performance... "

Multi-threaded means much faster Finder. Regardless of how the rendering is accomplished many of the normal UI functions are going to be much improved in performance over 10.1

How much does it really take to render windows really? Seems like it's been getting done quite well for a while w/o Quartz Extreme.. I do think they should provide support for all graphics cards that support OpenGL routines though, not just 4xAGP.. if GL is supported why shouldn't it benefit the OS?

Also about speed, I heard a while back that Apple is including super optimized (assembler) math routines for the PPC with 10.2 which should also add to all Mac user's performance quite a bit. This was something that didn't make it over from OS 9.0 until now and will be a part of the Darwin kernel instead of something Apple only. Also makes sense when you think about the optimized Java VM for the rack mount servers, etc.

Anyways, it looks like all the evidence points to significant performance boosts across the board w/ QE more like a 4G tech that will benefit 4G (or should that read G4) machines.

I haven't gone through the Quartz docs all that much so I may be a little technically off base. I believe the reason AGP and 32MB are required is that the image you will be seeing is compositied offscreen (in all of it's 24bit color, drop shadows, transparancies, and everything else glory) and then pushed on screen. That composite image probably needs everybit of the AGP bandwidth and VRAM in the system. I could be wrong. Maybe there's someone reading these posts that can give a better explanation.

eric_n_dfw
May 7, 2002, 10:44 AM
I know I'm nitpicking, but people keep saying the 32MB is a requirement. Will everyone please repeat after me, "32MB VRAM is NOT required. It is a recomendation."

Also, I didn't have time last night to try the disabling of double buffering that I mentioned yesterday. Maybe tonight.

Grokgod
May 7, 2002, 11:48 AM
Now that was quite an angry, name calling post.

My reply to that is this.

The G4 is recommended for OSX
Not the G3, not in the past, not now , not ever.
Anyone that bought a G3 and didnt realize this.
is not aware of what is or has been obvious to many people.

Therefore if the G3 has NEVER been recommended for OSX.
Its hardly a surprise that it isnt within the recent recommended video requirements!
It is a low end unit, despite the fact that it is a so called high end within the
confines of its own subgroup of low end G3's.

If someone didnt understand these painfully obvious facts.
Then the delusion or desire for a cheap mac has gotten in the way
of the obvious logic of the situation.
G3's are not meant to run OSX in a manner that is similar to higher end units.
I think that all your name calling is sad considering that you seem unware of what is blatant to perhaps the most mentally retarded.

I am not certain how they do things in the South, it seems they dont do them well enough because you bought the wrong laptop at the wrong time and are running the wrong os on it.

Where I come from we call that asinine. or pathetic.

The fact that you used your own money, begs the question, why didnt you respect it more and make a purchase that reflects a better understanding of the situation.

G3 units are old chips, very old, and are meant for people that cant afford or do not have the credit to buy a better unit .
I dont know how old you are but maybe you should get more money or better credit before you make decisions that will cause you to react this way.

Maybe its your station in life that is making you so angry and not the G3.

If you have in fact purchased so many things in the past then you understand that you get what you pay for. This is even more true in the Mac world where cheap hardware is at a premium of costs.!

I, personally didnt enjoy your rant, I found it sad.

If a person gets a computer from dad or mom or where ever.
Its of little consequence.
The fact that they made a good decision is what is important.
You have not, and are paying the price.
Welcome to the real world.
I would have thought that at your age this is a lesson that you would have already learned.

BUT, I do agree with you on the Ti books! :)
yet again, I think that you are failing to understand the situation.
32 megs is the RECOMMENDED for OPtimum performance.
Its the chipset functions and its AGP slot that are needed.
The new Ti books are not obsolete, at all.
They will work faster and better on the new Quartz.

Backtothemac
May 7, 2002, 12:10 PM
Grok
Well lets see here, you know what your are right. I bought my iBooks two months ago, and OS X came out over a year ago, and Apple shipped my iBooks with OS X as the startup OS. Now I tell you what I will just switch back to 9. Yea, that will work, except that now 9 is dead, and no more development will occur. So that means I am stuck forever in the land of no progress. Wait, hark, what is that an update for the STANDARD OS that came on my machines! Oh, too bad, we cannot fully support your new computer.

To hell with money, credit, and whether anyone thinks the iBooks are a good purchase. They do what I need them to do. I just wish, like so many other people that X (ONLY X 9 FLY'S) would do it a little faster. With each update to X we G3 users have gained a better experience with the OS, and it appears that it will end with X.2. Now what Rower and I have been trying to explain to the young lad is that it is frustrating, not life threating, that X.2 will not fully support the millions of G3 systems that are out there. All we are trying to say is that this is not a smart move by Apple.

They should have found a way to help the OS for us. Let us turn off all of the cool Eyecandy. That would be a way to help us. Give us the ability to kill the dock if we choose. That would give us a stable OS that did not kill our little ancient G3's.

As far as the young lad, well he has brought it on himself, and I cannot wait to see his response. Oh, and one other thing. I had no delusions about a cheap Mac. I purchase two laptops that were 1500 dollars each. That isn't cheap. 999 for a Dell, that's cheap. Just because I did not spend 2499 on a TiBook doesn't mean that I should not have an optimized system. Wait, I am sorry. I would have had to wait for the new TiBooks. I agree with Rower in that I think the OS is getting even more bloated. I would love to have a preview version of X.2 so I could either say, yep I am right, or Man was I wrong. The fact is we will just have to wait and see.

Now your logic is flawed though when you say that you are in agreement with me about the Rev A,B, and C Ti's, but not the iBooks just because they have a G3. The G3 is not the issue. In fact, in 90% of real world apps, my little iBook will run with a Ti 500 or 550. It is the graphics subsystem that is the issue. It is the lack of hardware support in the OS for the hardware that the company sells that is the issue.

I'm not leaving Apple, I don't hate Apple. I am frustrated though, and for a just reason. That is all.

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Grokgod
...If a person gets a computer from dad or mom or where ever.
Its of little consequence.
The fact that they made a good decision is what is important.
You have not, and are paying the price.
Welcome to the real world.
I would have thought that at your age this is a lesson that you would have already learned...

It makes a WORLD of difference between being given a computer and having to buy it yourself. If you're not sweating the budget, then you have NO perspective on what it means to purchase a new machine or upgrade an old one (if possible).

They didn't have ANY part in the decision making process, so praising them for a good decision is faulty logic.

It seems we have a lot of "holier than thou" types around here with AGP PowerMacs and last weeks TiBooks who are thumbing their noses at the rest of the Mac using population...get a clue and take a look at what this move by Apple is really all about: $

Grokgod
May 7, 2002, 12:41 PM
Well, I added to my post a bit late.

Let me add this here.
My logic is not flawed.
Ti books will run the new Quartz Extreme.
Extreme will look for certain chipset functions and a AGP port.
So any of the mobile radeon ati's will run extreme despite the ram.
32 megs is recommended! for optimum.

We all know that optimum is an ever changing event.
Therefore this variable is merely a signpost for the a debate or dialogue.

G3's do not run with the G4, there is Altivec also.
And system bus speed, etc
Yes the Os is the issue and the OS has requirement that are not in the iBook.

Despite that fact that OSx came loaded on your computer.
That is not supposed to defy the reality that a G4 is recommended by apple.
This was obvious when you bought the iBook.
The ibook was NEVER FULLY supported.
Why you are amazed that it isnt fully supported on a update is something I am afraid I dont understand.

The iBook have always been in this land you call "No Progress"

If the iBooks do what you need them to do but not fast enough as you say.
Then speed is something that you want them to do and they cannot DO.
You call that a good purchase, not in my eyes. Or yours.

As you said OSX is there to give you an experience.
It will not end with 10.2, but your perception of the experience will change.
Knowing that there are others getting a better or speedier experince.
Wasnt this always the case, relating the G3 to any G4?
I am certain that it was, but now you are more aware of it and the approaching divide tween the two experiences.

This is actually a smart move on Apples part.
Because it is the only move.
Surely you understand the pitfalls of lesser technology and that higher end tech is needed to improve speed and useability.
iBook specs are pathetic compared to real world computer technical specs or what is potentially possible. Apple is merely being upfront with the needed requirements, and repeating the obvious that iBooks are lowend and cannot support the new os in a manner that is comparable to what will hopefully soon arrive in newer technology.
This the the par for the course in the computer world.
Buy low stay low, longer.

1500 dollars is cheap, sorry.
Very cheap, you have to compare relative prices to the high end units.
3199 vs 1500. that is less than half, which equals cheap.
A 1500 mac is a cheap mac compared to what can be spent on a Mac.
To think otherwise is Delusion. The numers do not lie. This is not merely opinion.

Finally i would say that, Yes.
The fact that you bought an iBook which is not recommeded for OSX.
Means that you will never have an optimized system.
You never did.

Hell my new lcd iMac barely runs the damn thing.
And your complaining?

agoldweber
May 7, 2002, 12:44 PM
Apple is in a tough position--they produce hardware AND an OS. They are pushing their new OS while also trying to keep up with some hardware updates. It seems the line has to be drawn at some point where previously released hardware is left behind.

Where and when do you draw that line? Certainly we'd all agree that they don't need to support a 604/120... or do we all agree? That being said, the nature of technology is progress. A major part of progress is deciding how and when things in the past are left behind. It may be sucky for someone who has made a recent purchase, but everytime there is a major software update, some hardware owner is left behind.

What about the day when VHS tapes are no longer produced? What about the guy who bought a top-of-the-line VCR the day BEFORE the production stops? Does a company owe him something?

It seems we need to ask ourselves: why did we buy the box we bought? was it to always have the latest and greatest? or was it because it is what we could afford at the time and it suited our needs--games, web, work, etc.

It seems like folly to expect we'll always be up-to-date. It seems like a bigger folly to expect Apple to take care of us. We may be fans of their products and even their people, but let's face it: they're a multi-billion dollar business just like good ol Microsoft.

eirik
May 7, 2002, 12:45 PM
This thread is starting to wear on me!!!

Is the iBook video card soldered in place or sealed within a plastic casing? In otherwords, is the iBook owner FORBIDDEN from upgrading the video card?

Now, I suspect that the key driver for performance in the video card is video memory. That way it can store all of the frequently needed textures and things. That said, is there a Rage card with similar horsepower but more memory?

Given this development of QE and provided my assumption about the importance of RAM is correct, then I would not be surprised to see nVidia and ATI offer compatiable cards with more RAM for those textures and things.

I'm stretching things a bit here. But I'd much rather we discuss specific technical limitations, options, and possibilities for people to make the most of QE with what they've got plus an upgrade than what frankly has become banter about Apple and buyer responsibility.

So, there are a lot of questions in this post, explicit and implicit. Let's see if we can help our friends with Mac's that do not appear poised to enjoy all of the fruits of QE as those who buy the new cards from nVidia in August (maybe this will be a solution).

Eirik

Backtothemac
May 7, 2002, 12:50 PM
Grok....

Mac OS 9 Guide
Bring Your Mac Into the 21st Century
This handy guide for owners of Mac OS 9 and earlier systems will help you get up and running on Mac OS X. Learn useful shortcuts, system layout and, best of all, what you can forget.

System Requirements
To use Mac OS X, you will need an iMac, iBook, Power Mac G3, Power Mac G4, Power Mac G4 Cube, PowerBook G3, or PowerBook G4 computer with at least 128MB of physical RAM. Mac OS X does not support the original PowerBook G3 or processor upgrade cards. Check the supported products grid.

Where does it say that that a G4 is recommended? Where does Apple give this info?

Backtothemac
May 7, 2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by eirik
This thread is starting to wear on me!!!

Is the iBook video card soldered in place or sealed within a plastic casing? In otherwords, is the iBook owner FORBIDDEN from upgrading the video card?

Now, I suspect that the key driver for performance in the video card is video memory. That way it can store all of the frequently needed textures and things. That said, is there a Rage card with similar horsepower but more memory?

Given this development of QE and provided my assumption about the importance of RAM is correct, then I would not be surprised to see nVidia and ATI offer compatiable cards with more RAM for those textures and things.

I'm stretching things a bit here. But I'd much rather we discuss specific technical limitations, options, and possibilities for people to make the most of QE with what they've got plus an upgrade than what frankly has become banter about Apple and buyer responsibility.

So, there are a lot of questions in this post, explicit and implicit. Let's see if we can help our friends with Mac's that do not appear poised to enjoy all of the fruits of QE as those who buy the new cards from nVidia in August (maybe this will be a solution).

Eirik

Reality is that saddly that the chip is soldered into place. Also, it is not just memory, but the sets of instructions that the chip must perform. The Rage chipses will not work. Period. They never will. That is ok though. When I get an uber job, I will by the newest baddest Mac out there and be happy.

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Grokgod
Well, I added to my post a bit late.

Let me add this here.
My logic is not flawed.
Ti books will run the new Quartz Extreme.
Extreme will look for certain chipset functions and a AGP port.
So any of the mobile radeon ati's will run extreme despite the ram.
32 megs is recommended! for optimum...Hell my new lcd iMac barely runs the damn thing.

Once again you're dancing around the issue.
ONLY the TiBooks released two weeks ago meet the recommended requirements.

The fact of the matter is that since we done have QE in our hands, we don't know what kind of performance to expect from systems that don't meet the recommended requirements.

And your LCD iMac DOES meet the recommended requirements, so it's no big surprise that you're not complaining. :rolleyes:

Grokgod
May 7, 2002, 01:41 PM
Sorry if it seems that I am dancing around the issue.
I understand that only the new Powerbooks have the MIN.
I dont think I am dancing when I say that graphics cards below the MIN
will still be able to use Extreme as lonog as it is a card that has the proper instruction code built into the graphics chipset.
An example would be Nvidia's famous lighting capabilities which were hardwired into the chipset.
Its that simple. Without the proper chipset there wll be NO speed up.
No matter how much Ram you have. I think that is very clear.

Expect slower performances and in some instances no support for extreme without the proper chipset.

Again~ Its recommended for OPTIMUM performance.

How many games have people played with below the min spec on their computers. It will run in accordance to the video chipset properties.

Of course my iMac has the MIN, I wouldnt have bought ANYTHING that has below 32 megs, its painfully obvious that this was the lowest acceptable level of ram and chipset properties. Why would I buy something that is bound to cause me to gripe. I perfer to be happy about my computer purchases.
Dont you?

I have to add here, that as in the game market.
The recommended is NOT what will make your game run snappy and fast.
32 megs on the right chipset will make it run.
I have NO illusions that this will be the best card for the OS. Its obvious that a 128 meg card is what is really needed and these cards are out on the market. As are 64 meg cards for laptops.

I am in the market for a new Ti, and have been for while.
I almost couldnt contain myself from buying the 667.
But it was obvious that it would have been a mistake!

Will I buy the 800?
Well, If I do, I will with the understanding that the video card and cpu speed will not be up to par in the near future. And since I cannot upgrade laptops that have video chips soldered onto the motherboard to cut costs and space.
I will be stuck with it.
But thats the nature of laptops. You have to buy at the crest of the wave.
Or get soaked!

People with agp g3 towers can upgrade and enjoy speed increases!

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 01:49 PM
Grok-
Your points are good.

I'm going to try to settle down for awhile and take a wait and see approach. For all we know there may be performance increases across the board...but somehow I doubt it.

buffsldr
May 7, 2002, 02:01 PM
Straight to all people reading (or scanning) these threads:

Here is the readers digest version


Back: I feel cheated. I paid for a comp with a standard os and now I cant take full advantage of an update.
Grok: that is your own fault, you knew the g3 was not optimized for your comp.
Rower: You are young and stupid <insert more personal attacks here>

Its a cruel hard world, ain't it?

Mr. Anderson
May 7, 2002, 02:09 PM
When I upgraded to FCP3, certain transitions were made to be realtime, so that you didn't have to render them in order to preview them.

Apple wrote a script that basically assigned the number of realtime effects you could do on your machine by looking at the system profile. By editing this, you could disable the script and get all the scripts to run in realtime.

And what happened? It worked great, and if it was too much to handle, the playback would skip a frame or two to catch up. This was a great little hack and it also showed that even if my system didn't meet the minimum requirements for what I was trying to do it still ran well.

I would imagine that the same thing will happen for EQ. Now whether there is a script you can edit to increase your options, that remains to be seen. But I'm guessing that if you can install OSX on your machine, OSX.2 will work as well.

jelloshotsrule
May 7, 2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by buffsldr
Straight to all people reading (or scanning) these threads:

Here is the readers digest version

Back: I feel cheated. I paid for a comp with a standard os and now I cant take full advantage of an update.
Grok: that is your own fault, you knew the g3 was not optimized for your comp.
Rower: You are young and stupid <insert more personal attacks here>


rower didn't really attack grok, at least not right away. grok has been presenting his points pretty much with a levelhead.

rather, it was nickgold that, though he made some decent points, acted in a disrespectful way towards people who were (understandably, whether rightfully or not) upset that their systems (including the latest ibooks, as well as pre-800 tibooks) won't get the FULL load out of QE.

i think the thread would have remained pretty civil if the egging on by nickgold hadn't started it.

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by buffsldr
Straight to all people reading (or scanning) these threads:

Here is the readers digest version


Back: I feel cheated. I paid for a comp with a standard os and now I cant take full advantage of an update.
Grok: that is your own fault, you knew the g3 was not optimized for your comp.
Rower: You are young and stupid <insert more personal attacks here>

Its a cruel hard world, ain't it?

My responses were to nickgold and nickgold alone.

He acted immature and made no valid points for his argument. I called him on it, and let him know I didn't appreciate his posts...at a level he could understand. I'm sorry the rest of you had to endure it.

Do some research the next time you decide quote someone, <insert personal attack here>! ;)

Mr. Anderson
May 7, 2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


My responses were to nickgold and nickgold alone.


I was waiting for the crowd to start chanting 'Fight! Fight! Fight!'

It was a bit of good, amusing reading, both of you seemed pretty much unwavering in your position. As I put in my previous post, or what I tried to say, was that there might be some options that we're not sure about yet for people who are getting screwed by this upgrade, at least that's what I'm hoping for. It does suck that Apple is just forcing this down our throats and expecting us to take it. I certainly hope this doesn't become a regular thing.

'Thank you sir, may I have another!'

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
I was waiting for the crowd to start chanting 'Fight! Fight! Fight!'

It was a bit of good, amusing reading, both of you seemed pretty much unwavering in your position. As I put in my previous post, or what I tried to say, was that there might be some options that we're not sure about yet for people who are getting screwed by this upgrade, at least that's what I'm hoping for. It does suck that Apple is just forcing this down our throats and expecting us to take it. I certainly hope this doesn't become a regular thing.

'Thank you sir, may I have another!'

And a voice of reason is heard whispering faintly on the breeze...

I've said this elsewhere, but my point now is exactly the one that you made: "until we see it running on our machines, we don't know how well or how poorly it will run on hardware that doesn't meet the required specifications".

I'll bite your leg off!!

mischief
May 7, 2002, 03:16 PM
But it's out of control.

There's only 1 machine out that Steve has said was designed specifically for OS X: The LCD iMac. This means EVERY other product will have to rev ABOVE the LCD iMac. If you couldn't see that one coming I'm suprised you survive crossing the street.


(Mischief exits the auditorium as SPLAT Div. Clowntroops close off the exits and begin pumping soft merengue in through the ventillation.):eek:

jelloshotsrule
May 7, 2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by mischief
(Mischief exits the auditorium as SPLAT Div. Clowntroops close off the exits and begin pumping soft merengue in through the ventillation.):eek:

to me this type of talk just begs to have someone make a 3D animation (or any type of animation for that matter) of said incident.

you should work up a little script and then get duke to animate it. afterall, the guy's a kid at heart. so he'd be happy to do it. catch him before he has to head to the retirement home.... haha :eek:

mcrain
May 7, 2002, 03:50 PM
Are you telling me that I missed a good argument? Damn, double damn. How did this thread get to "Travis" proportions? What did I miss? Man, that will teach me to not notice the number of posts rapidly increasing... Foo...

mcrain
May 7, 2002, 03:58 PM
Ok, to pour a little fuel on the fire...

From the sound of the argument in here, it seems to me that you all must have been unaware of the class action lawsuit filed against Apple computer by the consumers who purchased iBooks in reliance on Apple's promise that OSX would work well on their G3's, althouth they would not be 'optimum.'

So, Backtothemac is not alone, nor is his frustration unfounded, nor was his decision "stupid." Rather, it was a decision made my a great deal of Apple customers based upon Apple's assertion that OSX would work fine on the G3s.

Didn't you all notice how quickly after OSX was initially released and people started complaining about its performance with the G3s that Apple came out with revision after revision to correct that problem? (Yes, lawyers working to make macs work better)

Let me guess, you want a link... let me see what I can dig up.

Grokgod
May 7, 2002, 03:58 PM
Whats really funny or sad to me, is this.
I am surfing on my iMac and always use it post, surf or something else mundane.
Yet, though I am within the limits of the so called MIN.
I DO NOT have what I would call proper functioning of the OS.

Example: I have tried to refresh this browser window many, many times so that i could see some of the jpg's that havent loaded fully.
The point is that they don't.
Sometimes they do, most of the time they do, then other times it dont.

This tells me that the MIN is a joke. OSX is a glutten of an Os like many games are that demand so much from hardware. Any freaking purchase this close to the crest of the wave is gonna fall victim to the god of insufficient techware. There is a wave coming, we all know it. Buy on the crest of it and you will surf out the wave in style, buy too soon and Wipe Out!

If I can hold out till the next powerbook upgrade that would be smart.
But I feel something stupid coming onto me.
Must buy powerbook 800, even though its isnt right.
Even though I know I will wipe out.
How can something wrong feel so good?

If it doesnt fit you can't convict.

Rower_CPU
May 7, 2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by mcrain
Ok, to pour a little fuel on the fire...

From the sound of the argument in here, it seems to me that you all must have been unaware of the class action lawsuit filed against Apple computer by the consumers who purchased iBooks in reliance on Apple's promise that OSX would work well on their G3's, althouth they would not be 'optimum.'

So, Backtothemac is not alone, nor is his frustration unfounded, nor was his decision "stupid." Rather, it was a decision made my a great deal of Apple customers based upon Apple's assertion that OSX would work fine on the G3s.

Didn't you all notice how quickly after OSX was initially released and people started complaining about its performance with the G3s that Apple came out with revision after revision to correct that problem? (Yes, lawyers working to make macs work better)

Let me guess, you want a link... let me see what I can dig up.

Don't forget the squawk when Apple said it was no longer supporting older ATI chipsets in "supported" machines...hmmm, sounds to me like they were paving the way for 10.2...

jelloshotsrule
May 7, 2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Grokgod
Example: I have tried to refresh this browser window many, many times so that i could see some of the jpg's that havent loaded fully.
The point is that they don't.
Sometimes they do, most of the time they do, then other times it dont.


just curious: what browser are you using? more than likely that's the browser, not the os...

i could be wrong of course.

mcrain
May 7, 2002, 04:25 PM
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0204/18.g3suit.php

This is a news article discussing the classaction relating to the G3 and OSX's failure to more fully support that technology.

shadowfax0
May 7, 2002, 07:02 PM
PEOPLE! ENOUGH! Jesus! You should all be ashamed, look at you people, grown adults some, some teens such as myself, but c'mon, just because you can type instead of talk, doesn't make it any better than if you actually said to their face. Seriously, Backtomac, yeah the dude was being a schm*ck (that allowed?) but if he was standing in front of you, would you actually yell at him like that? No, at least I hope not. Look this is very exciting stuff, all of it, and I'm glad everyone is excited, that's what Steve was getting at, but not *this* excited :) Look, all I'm saying is that you should be careful with your words, you realize that most of the people you reply to/talk to, you will NEVER see them in person (generally that is) so just try to be friendly, because then you know that somewhere out there, you do not have someone mad at you that will never be able to talk it over with. Heh heh, that was sappy, but I hope people know what I'm getting at and won't yell at me for being annoying. ::sniffle:: heh heh, j/k Take care everyone.

King Cobra
May 7, 2002, 08:19 PM
You know, I am not sure if this is the first time, but the Macrumors Article Discussion section now has two confirmed forums with over 200 posts, a few minor flame wars, and some incredible numbers of views.

As for the WWDC keynote, I am still waiting for Quicktime 6. Is Apple going to release a Public Preview series, just as they did with 5? I think someone else mentioned this as a possibility earlier.
__________________

Any time is a great time for iPod.

Newborn77
May 12, 2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by nickgold


I suppose you bought your iBook dissatisfied with its performance, fully aware of the eventual release of Quartz Extreme, and were misled by Apple into believing that the system you purchased would support it. And now that Quartz Extreme has been announced, and it does not in fact support your system, your iBook has gone permanently stale and is utterly unusable.

BZZZZzzzzt! Let's step out of bizzarro-world for a sec, shall we?

Your systems all run OS X in an acceptable fashion, especially if you're not a dolt who has 4000 MP3s in a single folder on a CD-ROM and feels a little put off that the Finder doesn't scroll as well as you think it ought to. OS X will continually be optimized and extended, and your systems will no doubt be able to take advantage of many of these new enhancements (Bluetooth, new iApps, QT6, etc. etc. etc.)

LOL
Nice wake up call! :D
You are right. I didn't buy the iBook cause its exceptional performance but for its portability. I'm just saying that I would like to see that kind of technology (Quartz Extreme) used on such a tiny laptop... that's all.