Mac Pro Owners Still Waiting for NVIDIA 8800GT Option... Due Next Month?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Upon the release on the Penryn-based Mac Pros in January, Apple introduced the NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT as a new video card option. Existing Mac Pro owners initially saw this is an opportunity to upgrade from current cards as well as ailing 1900XT cards (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1304962). Apple, however, quickly clarified that the new NVIDIA 8800GT was only compatible with the new Penryn Mac Pros due to firmware issues. This left older Mac Pro owners without an upgrade option.

A January statement (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/19/nvidia-8800gt-option-for-older-mac-pros-soon/) by NVIDIA suggested a fix was imminent...
the company is "in the middle of bringing out an upgrade kit based on the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros." What's more, this upgrade kit "should be out in a few weeks."... but three months later, there's been no news of the upgrade option.

A recent email response (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=5264464&postcount=1487) from Steve Jobs suggests that the upgrade is still coming, possibly in the next month:nVidia didn't come through, so we're having to do it. Should be ready in about a month.

Steve
Steve Jobs has been known to occasionally respond to emails, the most prominent example (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/08/ipod-touch-calendar-to-get-add-edit-functionality/) being an email in which he revealed calendar editing functionality that later came to the iPod touch.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/04/07/mac-pro-owners-still-waiting-for-nvidia-8800gt-option-due-next-month/)

[MacOSXuser]

Great, still waiting for the video card coming!

[MacBooksRock]

That sucks...

I always use ATI - not Nvidia

[samh004]

That response from Steve looks a little dodge, but time will tell.

[zeebe]

Anyone know what email address you use to send an email to Steve, not expecting a response, but would like to send one anyways.
Thanks

[Trip.Tucker]

ATI still produces better quality images.

[relimw]

About freakin' time. I haven't wanted to take my system down for the "average of 2-4 days" that my Apple peeps said would take them to turn it around. At least with the fans cranked, I can still get work done.

New card by WWDC?

[Lord Blackadder]

I'm skeptical, but Apple is aware of the problem so it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

[arkitect]

That response from Steve looks a little dodge, but time will tell.

Indeed it does…
nVidia didn't come through, so we're having to do it. ? Oh, please. Shifting the blame is a tad unprofessional. IMHO, of course. ;)

[pederg]

Anyone know what email address you use to send an email to Steve, not expecting a response, but would like to send one anyways.
Thanks

steve@apple.com i think it was..

Lets hope apple get a move on with this :)

[KindredMAC]

Why does the Mac Pro feel like the red headed step child that got left behind at the store and the parents still haven't realized that he isn't sitting in the back seat next to iMac and MacBook Air on their way home?

[flopticalcube]

Just in time for the 9800X2 to be released for the PC.

[zeebe]

steve@apple.com i think it was..

Lets hope apple get a move on with this :)

Thanks pederg!! I thought it was sjobs@mac.com, but wasn't sure. Anyone know for sure??

[Infrared]

Why does the Mac Pro feel like the red headed step child that got left behind at the store and the parents still haven't realized that he isn't sitting in the back seat next to iMac and MacBook Air on their way home?

I imagine many of Apple's own staff use Mac Pros for development.
I wouldn't be too concerned about abandonment.

[supercooled]

Anyone know what email address you use to send an email to Steve, not expecting a response, but would like to send one anyways.
Thanks

Go play the lotto; same result.

[milo]

SLOW. Apple and nvidia need to get on the ball with this.

[ltcol266845]

Why is it still so complicated for Mac Pro owners to upgrade their video cards? Really, its pathetic that you all are still scrambling for an 8800GT, when the 9600GT is out which wipes the floor with the 8800GT at a much lower price point, not to mention the many many newer better faster cheaper cards that have come out.

Seriously, if this is what Apple does for their Mac Pro owners, I might have to look towards a hackintosh instead when I look to a Mac desktop.

[zeebe]

Go play the lotto; same result.

Boy, you sure are helpful!!! :mad:

[Aztech]

I couldn't be bothered to wait any more... im selling my current Mac Pro in favour of getting the new one...

Trading upto 8 cores and getting the 8800GT anyway, seems like a better idea !

[andrewgasson]

His responses have always been in a pretty casual format.

I'd have to say it's likely genuine.

[eastcoastsurfer]

Why does the Mac Pro feel like the red headed step child that got left behind at the store and the parents still haven't realized that he isn't sitting in the back seat next to iMac and MacBook Air on their way home?

Because the overall market has moved towards laptops and/or internet devices. Apple doesn't want to be a computer company, but a 'device' company. Things like the iPhone/iTouch/MBA show you pretty clearly where they are headed in terms of product development.

[job]

I would love to be the guy that responds to the emails that are sent to Steve Jobs. :D

As pointed out, this isn't the first time that people have gotten replies, however fabricated, after emailing Steve Jobs directly. Is it really him? Who knows. Who cares. But the answers are usually legit. FWIW.

[arkitect]

I imagine many of Apple's own staff use Mac Pros for development.
I wouldn't be too concerned about abandonment.

True.
And they are also probably not reliant on 3D work… so their video cards are of secondary importance to them. :(

[Object-X]

And this little story should finally dispel the myth that a mid-range tower would allow for graphics upgrades. Every time I hear someone say they want a mid-range tower so they can upgrade the graphics, I think, upgrade to what? Not even Mac Pros have anything to "upgrade" too.

Flamer Disclaimer: For the record, I would pre-order a mid-range tower the day Apple announced it, but not because I could upgrade the graphics. The graphics would be better than a mini regardless of what came in it, it would have limited expandability, it would let me use my non-glossy display, and it wouldn't cost $3000!

[Rot'nApple]

That response from Steve looks a little dodge, but time will tell.

nVidia the NEW IBM with their "3Ghz" promise of GeForce 8800GT solution kit out in a "few weeks" that how now turned into a few months, hopefully not a few years.:eek:

[supercooled]

I couldn't be bothered to wait any more... im selling my current Mac Pro in favour of getting the new one...

Trading upto 8 cores and getting the 8800GT anyway, seems like a better idea !

Just for a video card with minimal bump? I have some waterfront property to sell you later, ok?

[antzona]

Thanks pederg!! I thought it was sjobs@mac.com, but wasn't sure. Anyone know for sure??

It is actually sjobs at apple.com

He has replied to two of my emails in regards to this issue over the last couple months including the one that prompted this story.

I think it is a good idea to keep this issue alive and not let Apple forget about it.

[uNext]

Funny how people are saying excellent to this delay because is apple.
If it would have been microsoft the following comments would have been posted.

Leave it to microsoft to **** their user base over by delaying a simple card upgrade.
microsoft is the only company in the world that would do this to its customers. i MEAN THE UPDATE WAS 2 MONTHS AGO whats is stopping them from releasing a simple video card updgrade.
same old repetetive ****.

completely disregarding the FACT that its the 3rd partys fault. but for some reason always point the finger to microsoft.. vista im looking at you.

the double standard views and bias towards anything apple on this board is sickening.

[BongoBanger]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

[supercooled]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

Because we're snobs and fiscally irresponsible.

No excuse for anyone but myself. I bought it to enroll in movie editing but so far it's been a great web surfing machine.

DAFT I BE!!! MORE COWBELLS!

[BongoBanger]

Oh well, fair enough.

Carry on! ;)

[iFizz]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

Who cares? If someone wants to buy a Mac Pro for personal use, so what? Making judgments against these people is a bit daft.

[iSee]

? Oh, please. Shifting the blame is a tad unprofessional. IMHO, of course. ;)

Assuming the email exchange is legit...

He's not really shifting the blame since Nvidia took responsibility for releasing the upgrade kit. And, indeed, they did not come through.

It's an interesting question, though: who *should* be responsible for creating these drivers? In the Windows world, it is mostly the responsibility of the card maker. The Apple world is different, both from an economic standpoint and by how closed the system is. Surely Apple needs to be heavily involved with something like a graphics card.

Also, what is the big deal? I know very little about OS X's driver model, and nothing about graphics card drivers, but it seems like there is something seriously wrong if a driver needs significant changes to work in such a similar system. I know the bus is different, which is significant, but it's supposed to be a compatible bus.

[pagansoul]

Who cares? If someone wants to buy a Mac Pro for personal use, so what. Making judgments against these people is a bit daft.

I have a quad core, 2.6, 5 GB ram and I have no intention to use it for professional use. I just like having a fast desktop. I'm counting on it lasting more than 2 years, though, I do use my Macbook 2.2/4 GB Ram more often these days. I have a 5 year old iMac that I never use. Its for watching movies in the living/dinningroom if I feel the need.

[chakosticks]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

I use mine almost exclusively for the handy Calculator...BUT...sometimes I playback 42 tracks with 100 plug-ins in Pro Tools.

[iSee]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

Mac Pros come in 4-core variants, which isn't too unreasonable. Consider that it is the only (somewhat) upgradable Mac. And in the headless desktop category, it's the next step after a Mini.

[ltcol266845]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

Well, for me, I want a desktop so that I can have a more powerful, stationary system. I also want to be able to play the newest games with some settings turned up so I can really appreciate the game. I also want the desktop to be a Mac, as I want my laptop and desktop to at least be the same OS. What Apple computer lets me do that? The iMac is basically a MacBook Pro with a slightly faster CPU and Hard Drive, not enough of an improvement.

If I spent $3000 on a desktop, I would to be able to use the latest hardware, or at least be able to upgrade it myself.

But thats just my perspective.

[airfang]

wait a bit more u can probably get 9800 GX2 as a high-end option :D

[Mattww]

If the 8800GT does arrive it will make me more comfortable about the prospect of moving to a Mac Pro in the future. It is still worrying that AMD/ATI haven't taken the opportunity to put a Mac retail card out for Mac Pro owners. In the G4/G5 days you could expect to see a card from them so you knew you could get a few years with good enough 3D performance.

[bigwig]

Another good reason to buy a Mac Pro for personal use is that it's the only desktop that supports the 30" ACD. I'd love to buy a less expensive desktop that has non-Xeon CPUs, non-ECC RAM, and less space for hard drives, but alas Apple won't sell me one. The only other thing that can drive a 30" ACD is a Macbook Pro, which is as or more expensive and less powerful.

[Voltaic]

Awsome! These kinds of "opinions" need to be posted more often. If we are to keep the "Mac World" honest and viable we must be critical of all things Mac.

Well done! :)

[jemo07]

No champagne yet... not until the cards are delivered...
Let's see... I needed them two month ago.... But I will take what they give... let's see if this does materialize.

JM

[ThirteenXIII]

Another good reason to buy a Mac Pro for personal use is that it's the only desktop that supports the 30" ACD. I'd love to buy a less expensive desktop that has non-Xeon CPUs, non-ECC RAM, and less space for hard drives, but alas Apple won't sell me one. The only other thing that can drive a 30" ACD is a Macbook Pro, which is as or more expensive and less powerful.

MacMini & 30" display not compatible?

hmm at work we use the newer MacMinis w/ 30" displays no issues what soever, even the older previous gen model worked with them.



When purchasing my first Apple Mac last year, the macpro to replace my Dual-core set up; i had a blazing fast computer....worked with XP, Linux etc...however i got so sick and tired of the driver issues between the OS, the Motherboard and the motherboard vs the video card and then OS vs Sound card and sound card vs motherboard vs other peripherals, my system slowly was beginning to corrupt, even after working flawlessly for months, i ordered some new parts sold it got a fair chunk of change otwards the MacPro with prospects of future expandability...Hard Drives, Memory and Some Optical drives, but now im stuck with the ati x1900...which is still an excellent card...thats great about ATI though is in most of my experience they last quite a bit and are still well performers past their prime, however i still prefer nVidia...though alot of it is towards a general market of enthusiasts and gaming, they stress test and pull out all the stops with their cards.

so Apple and nVidia need to communicate alittle bit more efficiently and create this card...what would be nice is a compatible nVidia 8800 with both versions of the MacPro.
But if not no big deal...but would be nice.

I mean Apple and ATI seemed to have pretty good open communication especially when it came to fixing and revising the x1900 during that error prone time.

[Raid]

That response from Steve looks a little dodge, but time will tell.Agreed. Colour me skeptical, but hopeful!

Funny how people are saying excellent to this delay because is apple.
If it would have been microsoft the following comments would have been posted.

Leave it to microsoft to **** their user base over by delaying a simple card upgrade.
microsoft is the only company in the world that would do this to its customers. i MEAN THE UPDATE WAS 2 MONTHS AGO whats is stopping them from releasing a simple video card updgrade.
same old repetetive ****.

completely disregarding the FACT that its the 3rd partys fault. but for some reason always point the finger to microsoft.. vista im looking at you.

the double standard views and bias towards anything apple on this board is sickening.Actually there is quite a lot of venom issued at apple over this whole situation in some threads like this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=410804). People might have voted positive on this thread to indicate that they are hopeful that this means the solution is coming soon; but it's impossible to tell. So instead of accusing people of having a double standard please take the time to read up on what people are saying here before you post crap like that.

[Voltaic]

Funny how people are saying excellent to this delay because is apple.
If it would have been microsoft the following comments would have been posted.

Leave it to microsoft to **** their user base over by delaying a simple card upgrade.
microsoft is the only company in the world that would do this to its customers. i MEAN THE UPDATE WAS 2 MONTHS AGO whats is stopping them from releasing a simple video card updgrade.
same old repetetive ****.

completely disregarding the FACT that its the 3rd partys fault. but for some reason always point the finger to microsoft.. vista im looking at you.

the double standard views and bias towards anything apple on this board is sickening.

Indeed. The only party responsible here is Apple. It is up to them to pressure 3rd party vendors and keep the Mac viable. Apple has shown time and again, when they want 3rd party developers to port products to the Mac they have done so successfully and on a timely manner.

The Windows world is pushing ahead with dozens of professional and consumer peripheral options while we beg on these posts just to stay a year or so behind their offerings.

I can't help but think this is Apple as usual not wanting us to have more options in order to force us to upgrade to their latest hardware. Other than the Mac Pro, Apple has been careful to design products with no upgrade path built into them. Pathetic way of doing business if you ask me.

As far as this being a hardware issue, it is my understanding the card will boot fine in Windows mode. With the nVidia 8800GT issue, Apple is starting to upset and alienate their pro user base (such as myself).

[twoodcc]

well i sure hope this is true. i'd be interested in upgrading at some point

[jlanuez]

We bought the G5 Quad when it came out (with the standard video card) and then wanted to upgrade. Even though Apple sold upgraded cards WITH the G5 you could not buy the after the fact! We sold that machine at a loss - felt very screwed by Apple :mad: - but still buy more & more! :(

Went to a 17" MBP C2D
24" iMac Extreme (4GB RAM AFTERMARKET)
and this week picking up an AIR. :D

[mdntcallr]

my sincere hope is that Apple has an 8800 card which is HDCP compliant .

possibly using HDMI or the like ... to allow for HD ppv's onto a real tv from your macpro. just like an apple tv.

also to allow for Blu-Ray movie disc playback.

that's my hope. lets see if it comes true. If true, that could explain a bit of the delay to make it compatible.

[sinisterdesign]

yeah, i'm pretty chaffed about this as well. my Pro came w/ 2 of the 7300's in it, but i only have 1 monitor (it was ordered for me). however, since the mac moboard doesn't allow for SLI of the graphics cards, i just have one sitting in there taking up space. finding out that my options were severely limited for upgrading the card was pretty depressing.

still waiting on a decent card. please don't disappoint...

[troller]

sorry but this issue is not just about the macpro. Apple could be the strongest one on the market but I don't see any meaning in waiting for some ****** hardware what any standard personal computer can run without any problem.

Same ****** with the imacs, macminis etc.....you have no chance to update everything yourself or after your needs. You have to wait, wait wait wait and again...you have to wait.

Sorry but this is 2008 !!! Apple sells this stuff like bread in WW2 and if they continue this way I see no chance for them to keep me waiting. I better upgrade my pc system with half of the money when ever I want and with what I want.

[Spades]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

Presuming upgradability and a requirement for a Mac, a Mac Pro is the cheapest option. So long as you can upgrade the weakest pieces a Mac Pro can easily be a 5-year computer for personal use. An iMac would have to be replaced every 2 years or less to keep up. So you'd need three iMacs over the life span of a Mac Pro. That's more expensive and much more wasteful.

Of course, that's presuming upgradability, which includes the video card. If Apple really expects their customers to buy all new computers for every minor upgrade they should expect Greenpeace to be knocking on their door again.

It's also a good reason for a mid-range tower. 4 and 8 cores is overkill but 2 and 4 cores with upgradability would be just right for economically (and environmentally) minded consumers.

[shinji]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

I liked the aesthetics of the case, so.. :p

[goodcow]

Hey Steve, here's an idea: HIRE MORE ENGINEERS.

[Stridder44]

Why is it still so complicated for Mac Pro owners to upgrade their video cards? Really, its pathetic that you all are still scrambling for an 8800GT, when the 9600GT is out which wipes the floor with the 8800GT at a much lower price point, not to mention the many many newer better faster cheaper cards that have come out.

Seriously, if this is what Apple does for their Mac Pro owners, I might have to look towards a hackintosh instead when I look to a Mac desktop.


Couldn't agree more. But hasn't this always been the case? The MacPro never got the best of the best when it's first released.

wait a bit more u can probably get 9800 GX2 as a high-end option :D

My friend bought this card. One word: INSANE!!:D But, Nvidia needs to release some new drivers (in it's defense though, the card just came out this month).

[RyanG]

Why must people resort to e-mail Steve (although mostly its just higher level customer service reps) when they stub their toe? I'm surprised they haven't just ignored all incoming e-mails on that address yet.

[patmcfar8]

yeah, i'm pretty chaffed about this as well. my Pro came w/ 2 of the 7300's in it, but i only have 1 monitor (it was ordered for me). however, since the mac moboard doesn't allow for SLI of the graphics cards, i just have one sitting in there taking up space. finding out that my options were severely limited for upgrading the card was pretty depressing.

still waiting on a decent card. please don't disappoint...

I am in the exact same situation. I hope this plays out soon.

[arkitect]

Why must people resort to e-mail Steve (although mostly its just higher level customer service reps) when they stub their toe? I'm surprised they haven't just ignored all incoming e-mails on that address yet.

Oh, I don't know… I think Steve likes to kick back on a slooow Sunday night… open a few beers and see what's popped into that special mailbox… :p
Sort of like he reads MacRumors…

[troller]

They should make the Apple OS run on all Computers and everything would be ok. Microsoft would be knocked out in at leat 5 years! Now I sit here and wait for a ****** graphic card what could be the easiest **** to update my pro but hell NO......I have to wait for (I have no idea) WHAT?!

[RyanG]

Oh, I don't know… I think Steve likes to kick back on a slooow Sunday night… open a few beers and see what's popped into that special mailbox… :p
Sort of like he reads MacRumors…

LOL, what's funny is some believe it's actually him!

[SPUY767]

About freakin' time. I haven't wanted to take my system down for the "average of 2-4 days" that my Apple peeps said would take them to turn it around. At least with the fans cranked, I can still get work done.

New card by WWDC?

2-4 Days to do what? Install the video Card?

[DaBrain]

nVidia didn't come through, so we're having to do it. Should be ready in about a month.

Steve

Well if that's true, I'd say SJ is not too happy with them.

[BongoBanger]

You guys are mad, but what the hell - it would be boring if we were all the same!

[kingtj]

No, this is B.S. and you know why? Because Microsoft is a FAR bigger company than Apple. I have the common sense to understand that new product releases take considerable amounts of time and effort, and I cut larger companies FAR less slack than I do smaller ones.

For example, I have several audio products from M-Audio. All of them are great little devices, but they've always had some "quirks" and bugs too. My Firewire 410, for example, JUST got "beta" drivers released about 2 weeks ago that allow it to work with OS X Leopard. These beta drivers don't even allow things like Dolby AC3 audio to function properly with the device, either. That's all "coming soon". That's irritating, yet not a "deal breaker" or anything I'd run around screaming about to everyone. That's because I know M-Audio is a small company serving a rather niche market. As often as their products remain "broken" after Windows or Mac OS updates, I'd consider it unacceptable if it came from a larger corporation like Logitech.

Microsoft, in particular, has done quite a few things that were clearly attempts to screw over their customer-base. Look at the class action lawsuit right now over their labeling of new PCs as "Vista capable". (Turns out many of those PCs could only handle the "base" version of Vista - yet internal emails leaked out prove MS knew about this the whole time and opted not to clarify things for customers.)

This 8800GT video card situation is really one where Apple never did anything other than deliver exactly what they said they'd deliver -- but users demanded some backwards compatibility that Apple was never obligated, in writing, to give people. (I'm all for an 8800GT that works with older EFI32 based Mac Pros - but the fact it's still a project "in progress" doesn't really phase me. If you needed the faster video THAT badly, do exactly what I did and buy a NEW version of the Mac Pro. You can get it for that one today.)




Funny how people are saying excellent to this delay because is apple.
If it would have been microsoft the following comments would have been posted.

Leave it to microsoft to **** their user base over by delaying a simple card upgrade.
microsoft is the only company in the world that would do this to its customers. i MEAN THE UPDATE WAS 2 MONTHS AGO whats is stopping them from releasing a simple video card updgrade.
same old repetetive ****.

completely disregarding the FACT that its the 3rd partys fault. but for some reason always point the finger to microsoft.. vista im looking at you.

the double standard views and bias towards anything apple on this board is sickening.

[Tousiger]

my sincere hope is that Apple has an 8800 card which is HDCP compliant .

possibly using HDMI or the like ... to allow for HD ppv's onto a real tv from your macpro. just like an apple tv.

also to allow for Blu-Ray movie disc playback.

that's my hope. lets see if it comes true. If true, that could explain a bit of the delay to make it compatible.

I'm sorry for you... but even if the card had HDCP... it would be absolutely unuseful on the mac side! Since Mac OS X doesn't (hopefully) care's about HDCP compliance from MPAA... so, again, unless you boot on the Windows VISTA side, you won't be able to play blu-ray!

Repeat after me : YOU... WON'T... BE ABLE TO... PLAY... BLU-RAY... :rolleyes:

Sadly! :cool:

[bigwig]

MacMini & 30" display not compatible?

hmm at work we use the newer MacMinis w/ 30" displays no issues what soever, even the older previous gen model worked with them.

No, they aren't. The Mini can only drive 1900x1200. The 30" ACD's resolution is 2560x1600. You need dual-link DVI to drive it, which only the Mac Pro and Macbook Pro have. I'd love for the Mini to have that, but it's never going to happen.

[Krevnik]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

My desktop is a workstation and server. It is kinda nice that I can sit down and relax on the Mac Pro with WoW and not even make a dent in the streaming it is also doing to the Apple TV in the next room that someone else is using.

It is also real nice when ripping TV shows, actually. With a Clovertown 8-way 2.66Ghz system, it takes something like 3 hours to rip 26 TV episodes in H.264.

[diamond.g]

Microsoft, in particular, has done quite a few things that were clearly attempts to screw over their customer-base. Look at the class action lawsuit right now over their labeling of new PCs as "Vista capable". (Turns out many of those PCs could only handle the "base" version of Vista - yet internal emails leaked out prove MS knew about this the whole time and opted not to clarify things for customers.)


You can thank Intel for that (or at least that is what MS is saying).


I am surprised that Apple is blaming Nvidia over it. Whos cards are Apple using? Nvidia doesn't make their own cards (well with the exception of eng samples) so that would leave the fault with the HV which seems like it would be Apple (I assume the cards are Apple branded).

[uNext]

No, this is B.S. and you know why? Because Microsoft is a FAR bigger company than Apple. I have the common sense to understand that new product releases take considerable amounts of time and effort, and I cut larger companies FAR less slack than I do smaller ones.

For example, I have several audio products from M-Audio. All of them are great little devices, but they've always had some "quirks" and bugs too. My Firewire 410, for example, JUST got "beta" drivers released about 2 weeks ago that allow it to work with OS X Leopard. These beta drivers don't even allow things like Dolby AC3 audio to function properly with the device, either. That's all "coming soon". That's irritating, yet not a "deal breaker" or anything I'd run around screaming about to everyone. That's because I know M-Audio is a small company serving a rather niche market. As often as their products remain "broken" after Windows or Mac OS updates, I'd consider it unacceptable if it came from a larger corporation like Logitech.

Microsoft, in particular, has done quite a few things that were clearly attempts to screw over their customer-base. Look at the class action lawsuit right now over their labeling of new PCs as "Vista capable". (Turns out many of those PCs could only handle the "base" version of Vista - yet internal emails leaked out prove MS knew about this the whole time and opted not to clarify things for customers.)

This 8800GT video card situation is really one where Apple never did anything other than deliver exactly what they said they'd deliver -- but users demanded some backwards compatibility that Apple was never obligated, in writing, to give people. (I'm all for an 8800GT that works with older EFI32 based Mac Pros - but the fact it's still a project "in progress" doesn't really phase me. If you needed the faster video THAT badly, do exactly what I did and buy a NEW version of the Mac Pro. You can get it for that one today.)

:eek:

lol

[snugharbor]

I wrote the NVIDIA PR VP several weeks ago (below). And what was the answer? The answer is IGNORED! That's the PR I got.:eek:

T

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:49:23 -0700
To: <dperez@nvidia.com>
Conversation: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros
Subject: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros

Hello,

Could you tell me if the following (see red text) is correct or just an Internet rumor since a few weeks have become a few months. This posting supposedly based on what you said is all over the Internet.

Thank you,

[Krevnik]

I'm sorry for you... but even if the card had HDCP... it would be absolutely unuseful on the mac side! Since Mac OS X doesn't (hopefully) care's about HDCP compliance from MPAA... so, again, unless you boot on the Windows VISTA side, you won't be able to play blu-ray!

Repeat after me : YOU... WON'T... BE ABLE TO... PLAY... BLU-RAY... :rolleyes:

Sadly! :cool:

The ATI x1900 XT supports HDCP under Vista using DVI. :)

The HDCP support is baked into the hardware and drivers, not the firmware... so as long as the 8800 has support for HDCP as part of the chipset, you CAN use it for HDCP via DVI under Windows.

[iPoodOverZune]

Why is it still so complicated for Mac Pro owners to upgrade their video cards? Really, its pathetic that you all are still scrambling for an 8800GT, when the 9600GT is out which wipes the floor with the 8800GT at a much lower price point, not to mention the many many newer better faster cheaper cards that have come out.

Seriously, if this is what Apple does for their Mac Pro owners, I might have to look towards a hackintosh instead when I look to a Mac desktop.

you are right. even hackintosh seem to have a better support now with their 8800gt and ati 3870 cards. i am so lured towards this hack project.

[Digitalclips]

I guess i am lucky, my NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT came two weeks ago and i added it to my Mac Pro with the ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT already in there. I moved the 23" Cinema display onto the ATI and added a new 30" Cinema Display to the NVIDIA. Everything works perfectly.

[shemp9999]

OF COURSE. This is what happens when a hardware vendor insists on keeping users in the dark. :mad:

I just broke down and bought a new x1900 because the one I BTO'd in my 2006 Mac Pro was getting worse by the day. I got 25% off via EPP, but still, I might have been able to wait another month, had i known they were really going to make a compatible card.

[Bubba Satori]

I can't help but think this is Apple as usual not wanting us to have more options in order to force us to upgrade to their latest hardware. Other than the Mac Pro, Apple has been careful to design products with no upgrade path built into them. Pathetic way of doing business if you ask me.

Bingo. Profitable, but not consumer friendly, restricting upgrade paths with the goal of forcing new cpu purchases.

[wizard]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

Isn't that like asking a Bongo player why he needs more than one drum?

Now I haven't gone over board with PC hardware as of yet but let me tell you I just got a new Mac Book Pro with Penryn and can say I'm very pleased with it. This the low end model too. A lot of that is due to the units responsiveness which the dual core processor has a lot to do with. I could imagine though personal usages where dual core simply wouldn't be enough to quick solve personal use cases.

So simply put if one can afford it go with as many cores as the pocket book will allow for. If nothing else the platform will just remain viable for a bit longer than if it was a single core.

Dave

[KindredMAC]

Presuming upgradability and a requirement for a Mac, a Mac Pro is the cheapest option. So long as you can upgrade the weakest pieces a Mac Pro can easily be a 5-year computer for personal use. An iMac would have to be replaced every 2 years or less to keep up. So you'd need three iMacs over the life span of a Mac Pro. That's more expensive and much more wasteful.

Of course, that's presuming upgradability, which includes the video card. If Apple really expects their customers to buy all new computers for every minor upgrade they should expect Greenpeace to be knocking on their door again.

It's also a good reason for a mid-range tower. 4 and 8 cores is overkill but 2 and 4 cores with upgradability would be just right for economically (and environmentally) minded consumers.
I agree.

I prefer to have my PowerMac G5 in my home office for graphics work, act as a hub in my digital lifestyle and be my work horse.

Being that it is my hub, I like to have the options to swap out pieces should I need the good old fashioned "bigger" or "better". I have swapped out 3 HDD's since getting the last gen PMG5, each swap moving larger and larger, while taking the last biggest HDD and moving that to the second HDD bay and the smallest one is now serving duty as my Time Machine in an external enclosure. I've also added and upgraded to 2 video cards running 3 LCD monitors in extended desktop.

Plus I like having the safety net of knowing that if one of my HDD's goes bad I can rip it out myself and pop a new one in from off the shelf down the road at the mall in a matter of 30 minutes and be up and running again.

Can't quite do that with a current iMac..... why Apple took that ability out of the iMac is beyond me.

[mdntcallr]

I'm sorry for you... but even if the card had HDCP... it would be absolutely unuseful on the mac side! Since Mac OS X doesn't (hopefully) care's about HDCP compliance from MPAA... so, again, unless you boot on the Windows VISTA side, you won't be able to play blu-ray!

Repeat after me : YOU... WON'T... BE ABLE TO... PLAY... BLU-RAY... :rolleyes:

Sadly! :cool:
APPLE can't do that. it would lead to huge consumer frustration. also, Blu-Ray discs are Itunes compatible with itunes digital copies on macs.

so... i seriously doubt this will last long at all. If apple comes with new macbooks and macbook pro's, i genuinely believe that June could be the time Apple Drops Blu-Ray options into alot of their lineup. from, Imac, portable and mac pro's.

they are also due for a monitor upgrade. my bet is June is HDTV time.

[BongoBanger]

Isn't that like asking a Bongo player why he needs more than one drum?

I only play a four piece kit. I guess that would be quad core! ;)

So simply put if one can afford it go with as many cores as the pocket book will allow for. If nothing else the platform will just remain viable for a bit longer than if it was a single core.

Fair enough - I see future proofing as a good reason. At the moment a Quad Core PC is enough for me but I guess we'll all be 6 or 8 cores eventually.

[trainguy77]

His responses have always been in a pretty casual format.

I'd have to say it's likely genuine.

Well other people gots similar replies 2-3 months ago. Saying it was "being worked" But nothing since.....:rolleyes: I would like a public announcement at this point from apple.

[Frixo Cool]

I would love to be the guy that responds to the emails that are sent to Steve Jobs. :D

As pointed out, this isn't the first time that people have gotten replies, however fabricated, after emailing Steve Jobs directly. Is it really him? Who knows. Who cares. But the answers are usually legit. FWIW.

Yes, it's really him. One of his co-workers, that I had luck to meet, said that he really reads this email when he has time and also that there is no secretary that acts as him. From time to time you can even get a brief response if your question or comment is short, clear and to the point - and I can confirm that. IMHO, great man and the best IT CEO ever.

However, back to the this frustrating issue - I just hope that Apple will fix this problem soon as the situation is silly - the high-end "workstations" - and some of them bought this year just before the show, look really outdated with puny 7300GTs and no sensible upgrade card. Radeon 1900XT is too old, too problematic - and too expensive. Monster 4500 is an option only for high-end 3D pros. 8800 is just right - but 9800 would be better after waiting for so long.

The worst part of the story is that all that modern cards work great in Mac Pro but only with Windows Vista! Ouch! I guess that Mac users need Mac OS X first and that Mac OS is one of the reasons to opt for a Mac.

Apple, please fix this soon! I'm first to buy it!

[alleycat]

I am very encouraged by this news, though I'm not holding my breath. I suppose EFI updates aren't exactly the easiest thing to do? I've been a loyal Mac user since 1988, and I think they do have our interest at heart.

The news is especially welcome to me since I would love to use a 8800GT for some next gen gaming with Windows XP. At the moment my stock Nvidia 7300GT is a bit too slow for large resolutions. Getting a Radeon x1900xt is something I don't want to do. Otherwise I'd be looking at getting third party heatsinks and fans just to keep that card reasonably cool. The motto of Macs are that they just work period. The same should be said of the graphics cards. We'll see. ;)

[antzona]

I don't think it matters if it is actually Steve responding or not. What matters is that someone his responding in his name with this information that they know will be all over sites like this one within a day or two. I think it shows that they are working on resolving this mess, but only time will tell.

If you question my honesty and if the message is legit, im me your email address and I'll forward the message to you.

[Rocketman]

I think it is kinda cool considering his fortress like security that he actually occasionally responds to emails on issues HE targets.

Hey Steve, please double the "rate" of disclosure to about 4 emails a year!

Rocketman

[SolidShadow]

YES!
My credit card is waiting Steve.
If this graphics upgrade happens, my next machine will also be a Mac.

[AidenShaw]

And this little story should finally dispel the myth that a mid-range tower would allow for graphics upgrades.

Every time I hear someone say they want a mid-range tower so they can upgrade the graphics, I think, upgrade to what? Not even Mac Pros have anything to "upgrade" too.[/I]

Perhaps we're dreamers, but maybe when the mini-tower is announced Apple will also announce the DDK ("Driver Development Kit") so that anybody who wants to sell a graphics card for an Apple can write their own driver for it...

[Bubba Satori]

Perhaps we're dreamers, but maybe when the mini-tower is announced Apple will also announce the DDK ("Driver Development Kit") so that anybody who wants to sell a graphics card for an Apple can write their own driver for it...

That would be the best situation, but i don't see it happening in SJ's lifetime. That is, the xMac or a DDK. It's a shame, really. With a $1K mini-tower and complete peripheral parity with the pc world, I think the sky would be the limit for Apple Computer, er, Apple. :D

[aussie_geek]

All I can say about this is LOL...

The 8800 GT is an older card - it has been out for ages and Apple has once again been put on the back burner for for graphics cards. Why not the 8800 Ultra? It should have been the option from the word go with the new mac pro's anyway.

Take a look at Nvidia's (http://http://www.nvidia.com/page/geforce8.html) website on the specs of these cards - most notably the memory bandwidth and shader memory in the gt vs the gtx. They are miles apart. You can also bet that the Apple card will be underclocked as usual with all mac cards. And to top it all off there is NO SLI ON MAC'S!!!!

But, when it comes down to it, the only real application for the cards is gaming. But there are no decent games out for Mac that would push these cards to the limit. For the same price of a mac pro with the 8800 GT, you could get a Pc gaming rig with 3x 8800 gtx in sli with the new 700 series motherboard, 3 gigs of ram etc - the list goes on....

aussie_geek

[Tallest Skil]

*AidenShaw's quote*

For a second there, I thought that Multi had returned!

[Bubba Satori]

For a second there, I thought that Multi had returned!

Maybe it's his avatar. ;)

[iSee]

Perhaps we're dreamers, but maybe when the mini-tower is announced Apple will also announce the DDK ("Driver Development Kit") so that anybody who wants to sell a graphics card for an Apple can write their own driver for it...

There is an extensive "DDK" (called the I/O Kit on OS X). I've never developed a driver for anything like a graphics card, though (just some basic USB stuff), so I couldn't say if it's sufficient or not.

[Krevnik]

There is an extensive "DDK" (called the I/O Kit on OS X). I've never developed a driver for anything like a graphics card, though (just some basic USB stuff), so I couldn't say if it's sufficient or not.

It isn't. The one thing that remains entirely undocumented without sample code or open source code is the graphics framework for OS X. In theory, you could figure out how to support a card without 2D/3D acceleration. However, when it comes to tying it into the Quartz acceleration or OpenGL acceleration interfaces, you will have to reverse engineer everything yourself. Only ATi or nVidia have access to the bits needed to do it.

That said, the biggest blocker of 3rd party ATi/nVidia video cards is the firmware.

[Spades]

The 8800 GT is an older card - it has been out for ages and Apple has once again been put on the back burner for for graphics cards. Why not the 8800 Ultra? It should have been the option from the word go with the new mac pro's anyway.

The 8800GT is old, yes, but so is the 8800 Ultra. The 8800 Ultra is too expensive anyways. The best option now is to hope the "solution" is a 9800GT that's compatible with old Mac Pros (and that the 9800GT is a bigger improvement over its predecessor than the 9800GTX). The x800GTs hit a sweet spot for performance for the price; any higher and you're overspending.

But, when it comes down to it, the only real application for the cards is gaming. But there are no decent games out for Mac that would push these cards to the limit. For the same price of a mac pro with the 8800 GT, you could get a Pc gaming rig with 3x 8800 gtx in sli with the new 700 series motherboard, 3 gigs of ram etc - the list goes on....

You can boot a Mac to Windows for gaming, but you can't (easily) boot a PC to OS X. PCs lose. :p Plus even if there are no games that push the old cards now (even though there are), there will be some day.

[ElliottE]

Here's my position on this issue. It's really very simple: Either Apple is going to release a new video card that is compatible with Gen 1 Mac Pros, or I am simply never going to spend another penny on anything from Apple again, period. This is the "Make it or break it" moment for me with Apple. I bought my Mac Pro SPECIFICALLY because I was under the impression that I would be able to upgrade the video card after a year or so, and that would extend the useful life of my Mac Pro from two years to 3 or maybe even four years. This justified the higher price of a Mac Pro to me when I made my purchase decision.

Should it work out that I'm unable to upgrade my video card, then I very simply am never going to buy another Apple product ever again, period. Ball is in YOUR court now Mr. Jobs. Either follow through and give us loyal Apple users a reason to stick around, or be ready for mass defections from the Apple camp.

[MacNoobie]

Because we're snobs and fiscally irresponsible.

No excuse for anyone but myself. I bought it to enroll in movie editing but so far it's been a great web surfing machine.

DAFT I BE!!! MORE COWBELLS!

Starting with the Penyrn based MacPro's I believe why dont you just all go out and buy lets say an eVGA 8800GT superclocked edition card (I got mine from Circuit City) and reflash it using a mp8800gt.rom bios?. That way you get the card 1. Cheaper and 2. you dont have to keep BS'ing with apples crap.
I could even PM people the links on finding the rom and nvidia flasher to get it working (heck its even on these forums too) since I'm about to pass out from lack of sleep. I got mine flashed in less then 5 minutes. I know an eVGA will work card wise but not all the other brands will due to rom size on the cards.. like I said easy fix you get your 8800 and not have to wait.

As long as the card works in your Mac I dont see a reason why not.. and dont say you're lazy or dont have the skills the worst u can do is fry the card and exchange it (yeah its heartless I know I'm crying already).

[MacNoobie]

Here's my position on this issue. It's really very simple: Either Apple is going to release a new video card that is compatible with Gen 1 Mac Pros, or I am simply never going to spend another penny on anything from Apple again, period. This is the "Make it or break it" moment for me with Apple. I bought my Mac Pro SPECIFICALLY because I was under the impression that I would be able to upgrade the video card after a year or so, and that would extend the useful life of my Mac Pro from two years to 3 or maybe even four years. This justified the higher price of a Mac Pro to me when I made my purchase decision.

Should it work out that I'm unable to upgrade my video card, then I very simply am never going to buy another Apple product ever again, period. Ball is in YOUR court now Mr. Jobs. Either follow through and give us loyal Apple users a reason to stick around, or be ready for mass defections from the Apple camp.

Post that to sjobs @ apple.com please

[demenas]

Microsoft, in particular, has done quite a few things that were clearly attempts to screw over their customer-base. Look at the class action lawsuit right now over their labeling of new PCs as "Vista capable". (Turns out many of those PCs could only handle the "base" version of Vista - yet internal emails leaked out prove MS knew about this the whole time and opted not to clarify things for customers.)

The Microsoft web site always, since Day 1, spelled out what "Vista capable" was capable of and what it was not capable of (Aero). So it can't do translucent menus but can do everything else.

Steve

[diamond.g]

The 8800GT is old, yes, but so is the 8800 Ultra. The 8800 Ultra is too expensive anyways. The best option now is to hope the "solution" is a 9800GT that's compatible with old Mac Pros (and that the 9800GT is a bigger improvement over its predecessor than the 9800GTX). The x800GTs hit a sweet spot for performance for the price; any higher and you're overspending.


Technically those folks that "overpaid" for the OG 8800GTX and Ultra are laughing at everyone else. They have had the performance everyone else is just now getting for about 18 months now.

Honestly the 9800GTX, GT, 8800GT, 9800 GX2 are all G92's with varying core and memory speeds. Not a whole lot has really changed. Nvidia is really stretching the G92, hopefully the next core will be more impressive.

[relimw]

2-4 Days to do what? Install the video Card?

No, my local dealer says I have to bring the whole system in, they have to 'verify' the problem, and then they'll order the replacement card. In the mean time, my machine must stay at their location (dumb in my opinion).

[SPUY767]

Anyone buying an 8 core workstation for personal use is a bit daft. I mean, what on earth are you going to use it for?

Let's see, I have an 8-core workstation, I boot Mac OS X. I virtualize server 2003 which I use to develop web applications in ASP.net. I also run a IIS server to test these web applications on. All the while, running at least three browsers In Mac OS, three more in 2k3, and firefox under a virtualized instance of linux. Under OS X, I'm typically running photoshop/illustrator to make graphics for the web pages, and flash to make advanced controls for the web pages. Next time you think to call something daft, give it a litte thought first.

[SPUY767]

No, my local dealer says I have to bring the whole system in, they have to 'verify' the problem, and then they'll order the replacement card. In the mean time, my machine must stay at their location (dumb in my opinion).

Dumb indeed. I've never really taken my Macs in for service, but once a while back, I needed to get a replacement modem for my 6500/250, and the local mac dealer wanted me to bring it in and let them install it for an additional like 100$. Quite a lot when the internal modem itself is already well over $100. Luckily, they just let me buy the modem and I installed it myself. Some mac dealers are not as lenient.

[BongoBanger]

Let's see, I have an 8-core workstation, I boot Mac OS X. I virtualize server 2003 which I use to develop web applications in ASP.net. I also run a IIS server to test these web applications on. All the while, running at least three browsers In Mac OS, three more in 2k3, and firefox under a virtualized instance of linux. Under OS X, I'm typically running photoshop/illustrator to make graphics for the web pages, and flash to make advanced controls for the web pages. Next time you think to call something daft, give it a litte thought first.


Yeah... go and tell me why that requires 8 cores and why, say, a 2.66 GHz core duo couldn't do that? Also, you'll note I said for personal use. Your description doesn't sound like that.

[SPUY767]

Yeah... go and tell me why that requires 8 cores and why, say, a 2.66 GHz core duo couldn't do that? Also, you'll note I said for personal use. Your description doesn't sound like that.

You also called it a workstation, and workstations are not for personal use. As for why? Why does a dog lick his balls? Because he can? Why did I get the fastest machine possible? One, so I could get work turned around as quickly as possible, and two, so I won't have to replace it for at least three years.

[kingtj]

I don't know why this even bothers me, really. It shouldn't, since it's not my problem what someone else decides to do with their money....

But I guess the "simple-mindedness" of it gets to me, so I'm compelled to reply.

HOW is it that the "useful life" of your Mac Pro is reduced to 2 years from "3 or 4", just because you aren't able to use a newer video card in it?? I still have a Pentium 4 system at home that has an nVidia GeForce 4 Ti4600 video card in it, and even THAT old card is more than adequate for displaying streaming video. (I built the system into a dedicated "MythTV" system, which is basically a DVD movie jukebox, music player, and PVR, plus game system that emulates older console games like the Sega and Nintendo.) Even for gaming, the X1900XT card in my first gen. Mac Pro is perfectly good at running all the OS X native games I've thrown at it, and plays Bioshock pretty smoothly too on the Windows side. Yes, these cards have a lot of overheating issues - but a $45 or so investment in a good 3rd. party replacement heatsink/fan remedies it, if you fix it before you burn it up first....

Before I bought ANY of my Apple Mac systems, I was well aware that Apple products don't typically have "top tier" video chipsets in any of them. I can't say I blame them either, when I look at all the Windows PC idiots out there who fork out $400+ for video cards every year, just so they can brag about some insane frame-rate they're getting on some benchmark tests. WHY do you need 200+ FPS in a game, when it looks "smooth" at 60 or 70FPS? And SLI?? That's such a kludgy hack of a way to get faster video performance, I'm GLAD Apple never stooped to the level of supporting it. What's "elegant" and "well engineered" about slapping *2* duplicate, costly video cards in the same machine and chaining them together with a ribbon cable?

It reminds me of the wankers who make their PC sound like a roaring vacuum cleaner, cutting a huge hole in the top of their case, and installing monster, high-RPM fans, just so they can overclock the CPU to like 1.5x what it's intended to run at. Never-mind that in 6 months, the faster CPU will be out, or drop in price enough to make their whole rig look silly and pointless.

I bought my Mac for exactly what it could do "out of the box", not for some imagined/assumed ability to upgrade specific pieces of it years later. Apple towers have a long history of including a bunch of slots that largely go unused, due to lack of 3rd. party cards that would support it. What did most G4 tower owners do with their expansion slots?? Installed USB cards in lieu of external USB hubs, sometimes..... or maybe an Adaptec SCSI card to run a scanner. Not a lot else.


Here's my position on this issue. It's really very simple: Either Apple is going to release a new video card that is compatible with Gen 1 Mac Pros, or I am simply never going to spend another penny on anything from Apple again, period. This is the "Make it or break it" moment for me with Apple. I bought my Mac Pro SPECIFICALLY because I was under the impression that I would be able to upgrade the video card after a year or so, and that would extend the useful life of my Mac Pro from two years to 3 or maybe even four years. This justified the higher price of a Mac Pro to me when I made my purchase decision.

Should it work out that I'm unable to upgrade my video card, then I very simply am never going to buy another Apple product ever again, period. Ball is in YOUR court now Mr. Jobs. Either follow through and give us loyal Apple users a reason to stick around, or be ready for mass defections from the Apple camp.

[aLoC]

Good on Apple if this is true.

One problem I see with Apple is they make all these brilliant graphics frameworks (CoreImage/Video/Animation), with every extra ounce of performance eeked out, and then sit them on top of poor quality third party drivers. A killer set of drivers could really make those frameworks shine.

[snugharbor]

Back to the forum subject, Derek the VP from NVidia finally replied to me and said we should get the 8800GT option for older Mac Pros in "just a manner of weeks. See red text below to his reply. This seems to confirm "Steve Jobs" comments.

T
RE: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros
From: Derek Perez (DPerez@nvidia.com)
Sent:Mon 4/07/08 1:33 PM

Sorry – really didn’t see.

Yes – the below is true.

Just a matter of weeks.



Sorry for the delay.

Derek

[BugDave]

Sorry but I don't believe it.:mad:

[Spades]

It reminds me of the wankers who make their PC sound like a roaring vacuum cleaner, cutting a huge hole in the top of their case, and installing monster, high-RPM fans, just so they can overclock the CPU to like 1.5x what it's intended to run at.

I can't figure out why it reminds you of that. Most people are just asking for a card that wasn't already outdated when they bought it and performs decently. We're not looking to do that "PC ricer" crap.

[diamond.g]

I don't know why this even bothers me, really. It shouldn't, since it's not my problem what someone else decides to do with their money....

But I guess the "simple-mindedness" of it gets to me, so I'm compelled to reply.

HOW is it that the "useful life" of your Mac Pro is reduced to 2 years from "3 or 4", just because you aren't able to use a newer video card in it?? I still have a Pentium 4 system at home that has an nVidia GeForce 4 Ti4600 video card in it, and even THAT old card is more than adequate for displaying streaming video. (I built the system into a dedicated "MythTV" system, which is basically a DVD movie jukebox, music player, and PVR, plus game system that emulates older console games like the Sega and Nintendo.) Even for gaming, the X1900XT card in my first gen. Mac Pro is perfectly good at running all the OS X native games I've thrown at it, and plays Bioshock pretty smoothly too on the Windows side. Yes, these cards have a lot of overheating issues - but a $45 or so investment in a good 3rd. party replacement heatsink/fan remedies it, if you fix it before you burn it up first.... But to replace that card (X1900XT) still costs you $300. It just makes more sense to want the newer faster card for the same money (the 8800GT).


Before I bought ANY of my Apple Mac systems, I was well aware that Apple products don't typically have "top tier" video chipsets in any of them. I can't say I blame them either, when I look at all the Windows PC idiots out there who fork out $400+ for video cards every year, just so they can brag about some insane frame-rate they're getting on some benchmark tests. WHY do you need 200+ FPS in a game, when it looks "smooth" at 60 or 70FPS? And SLI?? That's such a kludgy hack of a way to get faster video performance, I'm GLAD Apple never stooped to the level of supporting it. What's "elegant" and "well engineered" about slapping *2* duplicate, costly video cards in the same machine and chaining them together with a ribbon cable? It is all about the e-wang in that respect. But then again, if benchmarks didn't matter Apple wouldn't post them (when comparing systems) would they? ;)

It reminds me of the wankers who make their PC sound like a roaring vacuum cleaner, cutting a huge hole in the top of their case, and installing monster, high-RPM fans, just so they can overclock the CPU to like 1.5x what it's intended to run at. Never-mind that in 6 months, the faster CPU will be out, or drop in price enough to make their whole rig look silly and pointless.Phase change cooling FTMFW!!! Quieter than a bunch of fans and you get crazy OC's to boot. What is funny is the non-overclockers misunderstanding of speed binning.

I bought my Mac for exactly what it could do "out of the box", not for some imagined/assumed ability to upgrade specific pieces of it years later. Apple towers have a long history of including a bunch of slots that largely go unused, due to lack of 3rd. party cards that would support it. What did most G4 tower owners do with their expansion slots?? Installed USB cards in lieu of external USB hubs, sometimes..... or maybe an Adaptec SCSI card to run a scanner. Not a lot else.

Yeah, I like my Macs, but I also understand the draw of personalization. It is a self sustaining market that has crazy margins. When you are trying to put a computer together you go with what the people that abuse their systems have the best luck with. Those tend to be components that will last a while when you are not pushing them to the edge. It is what Mac people call high quality parts.

And lets face it overclocking a 2.4 GHz Quad Core CPU to 3.4 GHz on air shows how much headroom Intel has with their current chips (a 1 GHz overclock is nothing to sneeze at). It also shows how quick they can ramp up speeds if AMD ever can get their act together.

[ElliottE]

In reply to the person who felt compelled to disparage me because I want to be able to upgrade my video card to something current: I make my LIVING by creating CONTENT for 3-D virtual worlds, OK? As of now my x1900xt is considered to be a bit "long in the tooth" by the standards of the people I do work for. They just released a new version of the client that pushes my current card to the limit and then some, and my current system setup tends to lock up after about five minutes of running that client.

Also, it would be nice to be able to load my copy of Leopard that is currently sitting on my shelf, but the x1900xt card in my Mac Pro doesn't work well with Leopard. In fact, it barely works at all, the system tends to lock up after about, again, five minutes, and that's while running nothing more challenging than Safari.

So, I am currently unable to run the latest version of Apple's own OS, and I'm currently unable to run the latest version of the client software that connects to the 3-D world I make my living in. Other than that, I guess I'm perfectly happy with my current video card. So THAT is why I am wanting to be able to upgrade my current video card, and THAT is why I am upset about this issue, and THAT is why, if there is no solution coming soon, then I am going to end up abandoning the Apple platform. Does THAT make sense to you?

[winterspan]

....
completely disregarding the FACT that its the 3rd partys fault. but for some reason always point the finger to microsoft.. vista im looking at you.
.....
the double standard views and bias towards anything apple on this board is sickening.

A 3rd party caused Vista to be such rubbish?

[aussie_geek]

You can boot a Mac to Windows for gaming, but you can't (easily) boot a PC to OS X. PCs lose. :p Plus even if there are no games that push the old cards now (even though there are), there will be some day.

No sli though. and about $4k for a gaming rig here in australia with 1 8800 gt ... No deal. :p

As you can see by my sig, i have both macs and pc's. PC will be for games and always will be. Macs will always suck for that. Macs for when I want to make movies and play with graphics.

BTW, is there anyone who is actually using their ati x1900xt to the limit anyway? ie With 2x30 inch cinema displays playing 2 1080p streams at full screen ? Is there really a need for new nvidia cards anyway? Off the top of my head there isn't that many apps that would be making use of this card anyway. Maybe some CAD programs will but they are all processor dependant anyway. The multicore setup of the previous and current generation Mac pro easily handles that anyway....


aussie_geek

[aussie_geek]

Let's see, I have an 8-core workstation, I boot Mac OS X. I virtualize server 2003 which I use to develop web applications in ASP.net. I also run a IIS server to test these web applications on. All the while, running at least three browsers In Mac OS, three more in 2k3, and firefox under a virtualized instance of linux. Under OS X, I'm typically running photoshop/illustrator to make graphics for the web pages, and flash to make advanced controls for the web pages. Next time you think to call something daft, give it a litte thought first.


All of that at once.... Ram and processor speed would be your issue there all of those apps would be uploading their graphics needs to the card buffer using quartz 2d (core graphics). Unless there is motion video in all of those windows simultaneously there wouldn't be that much of a toll on your graphics card - 512 mb in the ati should be able to handle all of that.

aussie_geek

[aussie_geek]

Good on Apple if this is true.

One problem I see with Apple is they make all these brilliant graphics frameworks (CoreImage/Video/Animation), with every extra ounce of performance eeked out, and then sit them on top of poor quality third party drivers. A killer set of drivers could really make those frameworks shine.


Yep - i hear you there - all of that is still largely processor dependant. To prove it - open your activity monitor and move a window around and see your processsor usage spike...

aussie_geek

[BongoBanger]

You also called it a workstation, and workstations are not for personal use. As for why? Why does a dog lick his balls? Because he can? Why did I get the fastest machine possible? One, so I could get work turned around as quickly as possible, and two, so I won't have to replace it for at least three years.

That was the point. It's a workstation so why use it for personal use? But if you're happy with it then what the hell - it's your machine after all.

[elevatedlars]

I ordered a Dual 3.0 MacPro with the 8800GT option when they 1st released, when it was delayed to Video card production problems, I opted for the base Video Card, but, about a six weeks ago Apple sent it to me separately. Works great!

Lars

[trainguy77]

I ordered a Dual 3.0 MacPro with the 8800GT option when they 1st released, when it was delayed to Video card production problems, I opted for the base Video Card, but, about a six weeks ago Apple sent it to me separately. Works great!

Lars

Thats for bragging but some of us can't afford the new Mac Pro and would like to be able to upgrade the graphics card. :rolleyes:

[elevatedlars]

Thats for bragging but some of us can't afford the new Mac Pro and would like to be able to upgrade the graphics card. :rolleyes:

nope! not the point of my post. I ordered a new machine "with" the upgrade, told it was not available for months, I opted out at that point, but yet it showed up a couple of weeks later (separately). I was charged for it, in addition to the original stock price, but this leaves me confused as to what really is going on. I kept it out of curiosity to see if it really was that great, but I don't see a huge difference. I do OpenGL CAD rendering work and the improvement is negligible.

Lars

[trainguy77]

nope! not the point of my post. I ordered a new machine "with" the upgrade, told it was not available for months, I opted out at that point, but yet it showed up a couple of weeks later (separately). I was charged for it, in addition to the original stock price, but this leaves me confused as to what really is going on. I kept it out of curiosity to see if it really was that great, but I don't see a huge difference. I do OpenGL CAD rendering work and the improvement is negligible.

Lars
Of coarse you would be charged for it. Also you shouldn't see improvements in that type of thing, actually the 2900 might be faster. The ATI drivers are more optimized for that type of thing. Sad I know.....

[Frixo Cool]

What about latest rumors about resurrection of the Mac version of Radeon HD 3870? Maybe we will get both options - 8800 and 3870? That would be great! :)

[zorinlynx]

I don't get why it's so hard for them to support this. The driver is ALREADY DONE. It's a PCI Express card, it already physically fits in the slot. Heck, it WORKS under Windows.

Why is it so hard for them to tweak a few bits in the driver code to recognize the card? Why do they wait so long, until the card is EFFECTIVELY OUTDATED before giving us support for it?

This is mind-blowingly frustrating. I love my Mac, but I hate the lack of good video card support. I think Apple just counts on the fact that we can't stand Windows, and drags their heels just because they CAN.

[Krevnik]

I don't get why it's so hard for them to support this. The driver is ALREADY DONE. It's a PCI Express card, it already physically fits in the slot. Heck, it WORKS under Windows.


Yet, the failure is that it isn't just hardware and drivers... there is also the firmware. Hence why a PC video card doesn't work in OS X until it has been properly reflashed.

There are plenty of reasons that when two companies try to partner, it gets needlessly delayed or drags on. It isn't always technical reasons.

[Tallest Skil]

Yet, the failure is that it isn't just hardware and drivers... there is also the firmware. Hence why a PC video card doesn't work in OS X until it has been properly reflashed.

Your capital Es and Ks didn't get quoted! What's up with that?! :D

Edit: O... kay. They're there now. Weird. I restarted Safari. Whatever. OS X must hate being bored as much as I do.

[iFizz]

The answer we have been waiting for is here (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?s=topSellers&fnode=home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/displays&nplm=MB560Z/A&mco=OTkzNDY#overview).

I'm soooooooooo happy.........:D :apple: :)

[orpheus1120]

Sorry but I don't believe it.:mad:

OWNED! LOL!!!

[JollyRogers]

The answer we have been waiting for is here (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?s=topSellers&fnode=home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/displays&nplm=MB560Z/A&mco=OTkzNDY#overview).

I'm soooooooooo happy.........:D :apple: :)

Hmm is it me or was there a price decrease also for either the 1st or 2nd gen MP 8800GT...

[technocoy]

BOO YOW!!!!!!!! YESSSSSSS! finally and cheaper as well!

[xbjllb]

Time for Apple to fix several major issues with the Mac Pros (not least of all horrific video card and blu-ray support) and bring them back to the cutting edge that warrant their high prices. This can only be a good thing for high ticket power users in the long run.

http://www.psystar.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/P180.jpg

http://psystar.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/p182_q.jpg

And my favorite, the gleamin' chrome monolith...

http://psystar.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/P182SEmirror.jpg

When a company is as woefully unresponsive to its power users as Apple as become as far as the large desktops go (just LOOK at the horrendous time between updates right at the buyers' guide here for the Mac Pro AND the Cinema Displays, AND lagging far behind windows/PC's on blu-ray support), ***** happens.

Am I going to buy one now instead of the tricked out $9,000 Mac Pro (cart that's been sitting at the Mac Online Store for five MONTHS now waiting for a Cinema Display upgrade and blu-ray support)?

I am SERIOUSLY considering it, especially since they won't rape me re: the custom configuration I need.

Besides, it was far too much to ask Mr. Steve Jobs for a Mac Pro with a Blu-ray burner in it, or better video card support. I think these folks will be far more accomodating.

[Krevnik]

Time for Apple to fix several major issues with the Mac Pros (not least of all horrific video card and blu-ray support) and bring them back to the cutting edge that warrant their high prices. This can only be a good thing for high ticket power users in the long run.

<snip>

I am SERIOUSLY considering it, especially since they won't rape me re: the custom configuration I need.

Besides, it was far too much to ask Mr. Steve Jobs for a Mac Pro with a Blu-ray burner in it, or better video card support. I think these folks will be far more accomodating.

An issue though... it won't just be OS X compatible. Some updates will cause issues by unpatching the video card drivers and so on, rendering Leopard unbootable until you repatch the system.

Sure, it is cheaper, but it isn't bulletproof. Just be aware of that when you plunk down your money.

[fleacat]

how much speed gain do I get if I upgrade from x1900xt to this? Say, if I play crysis, how much more frame rate do I get? Does anybody know?:confused:

[ElliottE]

I just now placed my order for the new Nvidia card, it's on the way. Woot! I was within two weeks of giving up and having a local builder make me a linux box.... I am VERY happy Apple came through with this. Once I get it and have it installed I'll be sure to post on here and let people know how it's working out for me.

[BugDave]

.

[BugDave]

OWNED! LOL!!!

Indeed, but I must say it feels great! :D I have just ordered one.

[MacsAttack]

Gosh. There are a lot of "totally new" people popping in to say they have ordered one...

Not suspicious or anything. Honest. :rolleyes:

[xbjllb]

An issue though... it won't just be OS X compatible. Some updates will cause issues by unpatching the video card drivers and so on, rendering Leopard unbootable until you repatch the system.

Sure, it is cheaper, but it isn't bulletproof. Just be aware of that when you plunk down your money.

Yes, thanks! I'm hoping that the competition will make Apple more responsive to its high end Mac Pro customers re: video card support, blu ray burning/authoring support, and new cinema displays, and I'm giving it a couple of weeks to see what happens. I would rather buy from Apple, but if another company is more responsive to my needs at a third the cost, it's a no-brainer for me, because I don't even bother with any version of an OS until X.X.5 or X.X.6 when it's finally become stable and before Apple starts mucking it up to get ready for the NEXT OS, and then only X.X.Final versions I'll upgrade to anyway.

[zorinlynx]

How is the Mac Pro Nvidia 8800GT when it comes to fan noise? One of my biggest complaints about the X1900XT is its noisy as hell fan and heat sink that clogs up within a month of heavy use.

If I can get a faster card that perhaps runs cooler, has a quieter fan and I don't have to vacuum out every three weeks, I am so ordering this new board.

[zorinlynx]

Yes, thanks! I'm hoping that the competition will make Apple more responsive to its high end Mac Pro customers re: video card support, blu ray burning/authoring support, and new cinema displays, and I'm giving it a couple of weeks to see what happens. I would rather buy from Apple, but if another company is more responsive to my needs at a third the cost, it's a no-brainer for me, because I don't even bother with any version of an OS until X.X.5 or X.X.6 when it's finally become stable and before Apple starts mucking it up to get ready for the NEXT OS, and then only X.X.Final versions I'll upgrade to anyway.

So you're going to run Tiger then?

Seriously, leopard is mostly stable now. I haven't had any issues at all in the past months and it's shaping up to be a truly rock-solid operating system.

That's on authorized hardware, though. If you build a hackintosh you may have subtle problems that don't exist on real Macs. I have a friend with a Hackintosh and he's happy, though, so I wish you good luck with that endeavor.

[BugDave]

How is the Mac Pro Nvidia 8800GT when it comes to fan noise? One of my biggest complaints about the X1900XT is its noisy as hell fan and heat sink that clogs up within a month of heavy use.

If I can get a faster card that perhaps runs cooler, has a quieter fan and I don't have to vacuum out every three weeks, I am so ordering this new board.

I have a x1900xt but don't notice it's fan being that noisy. I do notice it a bit when playing CoD 4 in boot camp but my guess is your fan needs cleaning, is defective, you've added ram or have ram that doesn't have a heatsink or that I am partially deaf ;) . Note to all that buy cheap ram: Ram with heatsinks may cost a bit more but it will help to keep the fans in your mac pro to a minimum.

[Krevnik]

That's on authorized hardware, though. If you build a hackintosh you may have subtle problems that don't exist on real Macs. I have a friend with a Hackintosh and he's happy, though, so I wish you good luck with that endeavor.

Well, I just wanted to make it clear to the individual that buying a Hackintosh is going to be more work than official hardware because the Hackintosh won't even get OEM support like Windows boxes usually get.

That and I priced out one of their Open Pro boxes since I was curious what sort of perf I could get on the Kentsfields, and honestly, it lacks oomph in the CPU department after getting used to an 8-way Clovertown system. Granted, my box is something that is quite a bit beyond what you would find in a home system.

[xbjllb]

So you're going to run Tiger then?

Seriously, leopard is mostly stable now. I haven't had any issues at all in the past months and it's shaping up to be a truly rock-solid operating system.

That's on authorized hardware, though. If you build a hackintosh you may have subtle problems that don't exist on real Macs. I have a friend with a Hackintosh and he's happy, though, so I wish you good luck with that endeavor.

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm still running Tiger on both iMacs, but the next computer (whatever it is) I'll give Leopard a go.

[Krevnik]

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm still running Tiger on both iMacs, but the next computer (whatever it is) I'll give Leopard a go.

You might want to hold off on any purchase from Psystar:
http://gizmodo.com/380488/psystar-exposed-looks-like-a-hoax

Seems someone did some digging and Psystar isn't exactly deserving of trust at this point.

[ElliottE]

Card arrived in the mid-afternoon, delivered FedEx. Got the card installed, then realized that it was NOT going to work with Tiger (the box clearly says it needs OS X 10.5.2 to run - durrrr on my part for not reading that). In fact, the machine would not start up at all. So, removed that card, and rather than hassling putting back the x1900xt card (which was a major BEAR to install in the first place) I instead installed my original Nvidia card ( 7300 GT) that originally came with my Mac Pro. Once I had that set up, I then installed Leopard (Which I had ordered previously, only to find that it did NOT work well with my ATI card, ended up wiping the hard drive and rolling back to Tiger. *sigh* - Wotta pain inna rear THAT was...)

Anyways, got Leopard installed, and it worked fine with my original Nvidia card, so then I went through and installed all of the updates, which took a couple of iterations to do... just kept downloading everything, rebooting, then scanning for whatever else "software update" says it needed. Once I had everything updated and "software update" reported there were no more new updates to download, then I went ahead and powered down, took a breath, opened up my Gen 1 Mac Pro, removed the 7300GT video card and installed the new 8800GT video card.

Machine booted right up, and has worked very well since. I do a lot of development in virtual worlds (Second Life (TM) by Linden Labs), and after making sure everything was working as I expected, I logged into my primary platform and started checking things out.

The overall performance was around 70% better, was getting framerates at 19 to 24 FPS in sims where I had been previously getting framerates of 10-12 FPS, so that's a big win right there.

So, got it, installed it, it works. The card is a breeze to install, MUCH easier to install than the ATI card I replaced. I'm getting much improved rendering and framerates, the only major caveat I feel the need to report here is that you MUST have Leopard 10.5.2 installed to be able to install and use this video card.

Kudos to Apple for making this card available to Gen 1 Mac Pro users.

[iFizz]

Great. I feel better about ordering it now.
Would you like to start a new thread for reporting installing issues, reviews, and troubleshooting? If you do, please post the link to the thread here. Thanks!

[BugDave]

A note to all readers. If you install this card and plan on using it in bootcamp/windows then you will need to install the latest beta drivers from nvidia otherwise it will not work properly. IT MUST BE THIS VERSION 174.74

Windows XP: http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_174.74.html
Windows Vista 32bit: http://www.nvidia.com/object/winvista_x86_174.74.html
Windows Vista 64bit: http://www.nvidia.com/object/winvista_x64_174.74.html


Source for the fix is from http://www.macbidouille.com/news/2008-04-22/#16225

[Fausttiger]

So, does your 8800GT have less heat/failure problems than your 1900XT in y our Mac Pro? I also run Second Life and (even after blowing out the 1900XT dust), post-Leopard has become a crashing prone problem. The 8800GT draws less power, but also doesn't have an external port to dump the heat outside the case.

How do you compare the stability of the 8800 vs 1900 under Leopard and Second Life?



Card arrived in the mid-afternoon, delivered FedEx. Got the card installed, then realized that it was NOT going to work with Tiger (the box clearly says it needs OS X 10.5.2 to run - durrrr on my part for not reading that). In fact, the machine would not start up at all. So, removed that card, and rather than hassling putting back the x1900xt card (which was a major BEAR to install in the first place) I instead installed my original Nvidia card ( 7300 GT) that originally came with my Mac Pro. Once I had that set up, I then installed Leopard (Which I had ordered previously, only to find that it did NOT work well with my ATI card, ended up wiping the hard drive and rolling back to Tiger. *sigh* - Wotta pain inna rear THAT was...)

Anyways, got Leopard installed, and it worked fine with my original Nvidia card, so then I went through and installed all of the updates, which took a couple of iterations to do... just kept downloading everything, rebooting, then scanning for whatever else "software update" says it needed. Once I had everything updated and "software update" reported there were no more new updates to download, then I went ahead and powered down, took a breath, opened up my Gen 1 Mac Pro, removed the 7300GT video card and installed the new 8800GT video card.

Machine booted right up, and has worked very well since. I do a lot of development in virtual worlds (Second Life (TM) by Linden Labs), and after making sure everything was working as I expected, I logged into my primary platform and started checking things out.

The overall performance was around 70% better, was getting framerates at 19 to 24 FPS in sims where I had been previously getting framerates of 10-12 FPS, so that's a big win right there.

So, got it, installed it, it works. The card is a breeze to install, MUCH easier to install than the ATI card I replaced. I'm getting much improved rendering and framerates, the only major caveat I feel the need to report here is that you MUST have Leopard 10.5.2 installed to be able to install and use this video card.

Kudos to Apple for making this card available to Gen 1 Mac Pro users.