Apple posts Java update for Panther, improving functionality...

[MacBytes]

Category: Apple Software
Link: Apple posts Java update for Panther, improving functionality and stability for both 1.3.1 and 1.4.1. (http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple/java.html)

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by arn

[alia]

I tried to install this update on my Mom's imac and all it did was crash the software updater application. I don't know if it is that her installation of panther is bad, or if there's just a problem with the update...

Alia

[crabbyapple]

Just downloaded and installed with no problems. Install went perfect on 10.3.1.

[Pale Fire]

No problems for me either (on 10.3.1)

[lynnpye]

Those (like me) who did an upgrade instead of an archive/install and found their Java installation broken (HotSpot not found at virtual address message) will still have this problem after this upgrade.

I have upgraded to 10.3.1 and when I saw this Java update, I thought it might fix the problem, but it didn't.

Guess I'll have to go grab my disk and do the manual update *sigh*.

[a_kim]

Installed fine on my 17 inch powerbook running 10.3.1 (clean install). No problems so far.

[Chaszmyr]

Doesn't show up in my Software Update

[a_kim]

Originally posted by Chaszmyr
Doesn't show up in my Software Update

Yeah, it didn't show up in mine either. I had to download the installer from Apple's site.

Does anybody know of any "problematic" java app web pages that I can test this update with?

[Trowaman]

Show'd up on my software update last night about (10 p.m. central)

~Trowaman

[ChoMomma]

Not showing up on SW Update,
running 10.3.1 from a 10.2 --> 10.3 Upgrade.

[arn]

Originally posted by lynnpye
Those (like me) who did an upgrade instead of an archive/install and found their Java installation broken (HotSpot not found at virtual address message) will still have this problem after this upgrade.


See this link

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

arn

[AmigoMac]

No issues, PB 12" rev A. 10.3.1 from an update...

[lynnpye]

Originally posted by arn
See this link

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

arn

Hi arn,

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I've seen that technote. It says you have to pull up the pkg for the Java install, which is what I was referring to when I said I would have to pull up my install disks and do the manual update.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by a_kim
Yeah, it didn't show up in mine either. I had to download the installer from Apple's site.

Does anybody know of any "problematic" java app web pages that I can test this update with?

Yahoo>Games>Dominoes stopped working for me with 10.3 but always worked in Jaguar.

[Photorun]

Hmmm, Apple's JAVA is almost as bad as M$'s JAVA. Still takes forever to load weather.noaa dopler radar and weather.com radar doesn't auto scroll in Safari. Worked in earlier builds almost a year ago, those would be beta Safari versions and much earlier JAVA builds. Works a little better in IE. Both sites and applets work perfectly on my peecee.

[sethypoo]

Originally posted by Chaszmyr
Doesn't show up in my Software Update

Mine either.....I'm running 10.3.1.....hmm, what gives?

[a_kim]

I wonder if Software Update is checking whether computers actually need the java fix. Is this a possibility? It would make sense to me since not everyone had the broken Java.

[Foxer]

It was in mine last night sometime before I checked at 10.30 - installed with no problem (dual g5, 10.3.1)

[ntg]

Strangely, an iBook updated saw it last night, whereas my work G4-533DP with a clean install (after it was filevaulted!) doesn't see it!

Weird, huh!:confused:

nig.

[birdFEEDER]

For those of you (myself included) who did not see it in their Software Update, it is because it is not required. From the tech notes:

The problem described above does not occur on the following configurations:

* Upgrade installations of Panther from Jaguar systems without the QuickTime for Java Update, v6.4 update.
* "Erase and Install" installations of Panther
* "Archive and Install" installations of Panther

Hope that helps...

[eogold]

Here's my situation:

Already upgraded to Panther 10.3.1 after initally using the "Upgrade" option to install 10.3.

I just successfully installed the Panther Java update. Then followed the instructions per this technote:

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

Discovered I needed the repair ("HotSpot not at correct virtual address. Sharing disabled. java version "1.4.1_01""), so per instructions I reinstalled java from my Mac 10.3 disk. Rebooted - no more error message.

The technote goes on to say:

"If you have installed the "Security Update 2003-10-28" before following these steps you will additionally need to reinstall that update, as the Java package on the CD precedes it".

So I followed the directions and trashed the SecurityUpd2003-10-28.pkg receipt, and then attempted to re-download it using Software Update. However Software Update now does not show the Security Upddate 2003-10-28.

So I manually downloaded it and tried to install it. However, when I try to manually install the update I get the message:

"SecurityUpd2003-10-28 cannot be installed on this computer. This update requires Mac OS X v10.3 before this software can be installed."

I assume this is because I have already updated to 10.3.1.

So now I don't know what to do...

-- Do I need to do a manual re-install of the new Panther Java update?

-- How do I re-install the Security Update 2003-10-28?

Help!

Eric

[MattG]

It's not in my software update, and when I went to Apple's support page to get it, the page says:

"We are in the process of revising the Java 1.4.1 download to provide better compatibility with changes made in other recent Apple software updates. Check back here for up-to-date information on the status of the Java 1.4.1. download.

[bousozoku]

I haven't seen the update but I just checked per the tech note and I have the correct version.

It's odd--I had dialup and decided to wait to load QuickTime 6.4 with Panther. Maybe some ISP could use this as part of their advertising campaign--"There are advantages to dialup!". :D

[iamscientist]

I have a problem and was wondering if anyone else has experienced this...

I updated my OS from 10.2 to 10.3 and then to 10.3.1. My Java is messed up, but I did download Java update 1.4.1. However, Terminal does not read 1.4.1 as being installed, it only reads 1.3.1. Because of this, I don't know if I am able to manually update and fix the problem. Does anyone know if Mac will have a user-end solution soon?

[MacBandit]

You will most likely only see the update if you have the Java failure issue.

From what I have read this Java update is targetting users that did an update install rather then a clean install. There is no reason to do this install if you did a clean install and you're java should be working normally.

You can check your Java install by opening the terminal and typeing "Java -Version" without the quotes and with the space. If it doesn't say anything about ,"Hot spot not at correct," and it says Java 1.4.1 01 then you are fine.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by iamscientist
I have a problem and was wondering if anyone else has experienced this...

I updated my OS from 10.2 to 10.3 and then to 10.3.1. My Java is messed up, but I did download Java update 1.4.1. However, Terminal does not read 1.4.1 as being installed, it only reads 1.3.1. Because of this, I don't know if I am able to manually update and fix the problem. Does anyone know if Mac will have a user-end solution soon?

Yes follow the instructions at this site.

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by eogold
I assume this is because I have already updated to 10.3.1.

So now I don't know what to do...

-- Do I need to do a manual re-install of the new Panther Java update?

-- How do I re-install the Security Update 2003-10-28?

Help!

Eric

You don't have to do anything. 10.3.1 included the security upgrade within it so the file you trashed was the old security update. You did not trash the one included in the 10.3.1 update package.

[eogold]

MacBandit:

Perhaps I did not make it clear...

-I had already updated to 10.3.1
- Then following the technote instructions, I installed the Java from the original 10.3 CD. According to the technote, "if you have installed the "Security Update 2003-10-28" before following these steps you will additionally need to reinstall that update, as the Java package on the CD precedes it".

- So it sounds like installing the Java from the 10.3 CD overwrites the Panther Java update and the Security Update 2003-10-28

Bear in mind that the technote preceded both the 10.3.1 update and today's Panther Java Update...

So I am still unsure on how to proceed.

Eric

[Powerbook G5]

I didn't see it in my software update, either, but I installed it from the Apple website anyway. Strangely enough, after it installed, I noticed that I gained HD space. I wonder what was up with that?

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by iamscientist
I have a problem and was wondering if anyone else has experienced this...

I updated my OS from 10.2 to 10.3 and then to 10.3.1. My Java is messed up, but I did download Java update 1.4.1. However, Terminal does not read 1.4.1 as being installed, it only reads 1.3.1. Because of this, I don't know if I am able to manually update and fix the problem. Does anyone know if Mac will have a user-end solution soon?

Follow the tech note section "Repairing an Incomplete Java Installation".

By the way, Mac is a computer, Apple is the company. ;)

[ITR 81]

DL'ed it last night from the website. It didn't show up in my updates but thats ok I found it all the same.

All I know I have no problems and Java sites don't seem to be crashing my Safari anymore which is good thing.

[duce]

Had installation problem earlier. Discovered that I had a bad download, yet the installer tied and failed. Trashed the original and downloaded it again and all is well. Thank goodness for a 1.5MB broadband else this could be frustrating at 40MB a pop.

[MacBandit]

ATTENTION!!

If the Java update does not show up in your software update panel do not automatically download and install the update. You need to check your Java install to see if you actually need it first.

Follow the steps at this page.

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

It will tell you how to check you're Java version and tell if it was installed correctly. Simply manually downloading Java and installing it will not fix the problem. There are other steps you need to peform first outlined in the Apple technote linked to above.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by eogold
MacBandit:

Perhaps I did not make it clear...

-I had already updated to 10.3.1
- Then following the technote instructions, I installed the Java from the original 10.3 CD. According to the technote, "if you have installed the "Security Update 2003-10-28" before following these steps you will additionally need to reinstall that update, as the Java package on the CD precedes it".

- So it sounds like installing the Java from the 10.3 CD overwrites the Panther Java update and the Security Update 2003-10-28

Bear in mind that the technote preceded both the 10.3.1 update and today's Panther Java Update...

So I am still unsure on how to proceed.

Eric

No, I understood your situation. I don't not believe that you have anything to do. The 10.3.1 install should supersede the security update and what you deleted should not have been important at all since you installed the 10.3.1 update.

[WM.]

Originally posted by MacBandit
No, I understood your situation. I don't not believe that you have anything to do. The 10.3.1 install should supersede the security update and what you deleted should not have been important at all since you installed the 10.3.1 update.
I disagree. Here's how I understand what he did:

--Installed 10.3. Includes problematic Java installation with security hole.

--Installed security update. Patches hole.

--Installed 10.3.1 (including security update).

--Installed yesterday's Java update. Java still doesn't work.

--Overwrote Java with original 10.3 Java--which doesn't include the security update.

So he's got an unpatched version of Java. He can't install just the security update, because it thinks that 10.3.1 obviates the need for it. And he can't install 10.3.1 again without reinstalling all of Panther.

So I guess I would try to run the recent Java update again. Since he's basically overwritten it with the original 10.3 Java (I think), it might let him do that.

FWIW
WM

[WM.]

Originally posted by MacBandit
ATTENTION!!

If the Java update does not show up in your software update panel do not automatically download and install the update. You need to check your Java install to see if you actually need it first.

Follow the steps at this page.

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

It will tell you how to check you're Java version and tell if it was installed correctly. Simply manually downloading Java and installing it will not fix the problem. There are other steps you need to peform first outlined in the Apple technote linked to above.
I disagree here too. I think you can install this recent Java update on any 10.3 machine, regardless of whether it's having problems or, if it does, whether you've fixed them.

Otherwise Apple would specify that you should only install it if you've had problems and you've followed the procedures in the technote. But they don't. They say it's strongly recommended for all users. I'll be installing it as soon as I can hog the modem for a few hours (fortunately our connections are very reliable)--I don't have the problem detailed in the technote, but a Java app that I'd really like to work (although it's not critical) broke in 10.3.

Please note that, as eogold said, that technote predates both 10.3.1 and the Java update, so it may be obsolete now.

WM

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by WM.
I disagree. Here's how I understand what he did:

--Installed 10.3. Includes problematic Java installation with security hole.

--Installed security update. Patches hole.

--Installed 10.3.1 (including security update).

--Installed yesterday's Java update. Java still doesn't work.

--Overwrote Java with original 10.3 Java--which doesn't include the security update.

So he's got an unpatched version of Java. He can't install just the security update, because it thinks that 10.3.1 obviates the need for it. And he can't install 10.3.1 again without reinstalling all of Panther.

So I guess I would try to run the recent Java update again. Since he's basically overwritten it with the original 10.3 Java (I think), it might let him do that.

FWIW
WM

The current Java update does not over right the security update. You must delete the security update per Apple's instructions. Apple's instructions are for 10.3 in which the security patch was patch. In 10.3.1 the security patch is written in. As far as I know the security update actually doesn't have anything to do with Java it's just that it's necessary to remove it in order to do the Java update on the original version of 10.3.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by WM.
I disagree here too. I think you can install this recent Java update on any 10.3 machine, regardless of whether it's having problems or, if it does, whether you've fixed them.

Otherwise Apple would specify that you should only install it if you've had problems and you've followed the procedures in the technote. But they don't. They say it's strongly recommended for all users. I'll be installing it as soon as I can hog the modem for a few hours (fortunately our connections are very reliable)--I don't have the problem detailed in the technote, but a Java app that I'd really like to work (although it's not critical) broke in 10.3.

Please note that, as eogold said, that technote predates both 10.3.1 and the Java update, so it may be obsolete now.

WM

The Java update that is in question is the same one that was released a while back for Jaguar. The reason Apple is reposting it is due to the failed Java install on systems updated from 10.2 to 10.3. If you did not run the update but did a clean install and you run the terminal version to check your Java version it will show that you are completely up to date and it is unnecessary to run the Java updater. If your check your Java version and it shows an incorrect address then yes, you need to use the Java update but not until you do what is instructed in Apples knowledge base article. Thus do not automatically install the Java update because it will not fix anything until you do the steps Apple says to.

[WM.]

Originally posted by MacBandit
The Java update that is in question is the same one that was released a while back for Jaguar. The reason Apple is reposting it is due to the failed Java install on systems updated from 10.2 to 10.3.
I'm not so sure. It seems to me like Apple would have said something like "this update fixes installation problems experienced with 10.3" if this were the case, but instead they refer to "functionality enhancements" or something like that. Plus it updates both 1.3.1 and 1.4.1. That sounds like a lot more than a fix for an installation issue to me.
If you did not run the update but did a clean install and you run the terminal version to check your Java version it will show that you are completely up to date and it is unnecessary to run the Java updater. If your check your Java version and it shows an incorrect address then yes, you need to use the Java update but not until you do what is instructed in Apples knowledge base article. Thus do not automatically install the Java update because it will not fix anything until you do the steps Apple says to.
Where are you getting this information? Not from Apple, I assume, since they haven't updated any KB or developer documentation to reflect this update (AFAICT).

WM

[WM.]

Originally posted by MacBandit
The current Java update does not over right the security update.
Right.
You must delete the security update per Apple's instructions. Apple's instructions are for 10.3 in which the security patch was patch. In 10.3.1 the security patch is written in. As far as I know the security update actually doesn't have anything to do with Java it's just that it's necessary to remove it in order to do the Java update on the original version of 10.3.
I don't believe that's right. First, Apple's instructions don't tell you to remove the patch itself--rather you're deleting the receipt from the installation of the patch. Secondly, IIRC the 10/28 (?) patch was for a vulnerability in QuickTime for Java. Thirdly, that article has nothing to do with performing the Java update, because it was released before the Java update was! It only refers to re-installing the original 10.3 Java to remedy a messed-up original installation. After which you're supposed to install the 10/28 security update again.

WM

[greenstork]

Even though it used to wrk in Jaguar, I still can't play dominoes in Panther after 10.3.1 and Java 1.4.1 updates.

Yahoo>Games>Dominoes

Broken, I get a crash every time. :mad:

[eogold]

The current Java update does not over right the security update. You must delete the security update per Apple's instructions. Apple's instructions are for 10.3 in which the security patch was patch. In 10.3.1 the security patch is written in. As far as I know the security update actually doesn't have anything to do with Java it's just that it's necessary to remove it in order to do the Java update on the original version of 10.3.

WM. had it correct. Here's what Apple's technote says:

"If you have installed the "Security Update 2003-10-28" before following these steps you will additionally need to reinstall that update, as the Java package on the CD precedes it".

To me this implies that re-installing the Java from the 10.3 install disk somehow "uninstalls" the 2003-10-28 Security patch. Why else would you be directed to delete the *receipt" for the security patch? This simply allows Software Update to think that you "need" the 2003-10-28 Security patch, so you can download it again. However, in my case, since I had updated to 10.3.1, Software Update didn't "see" the patch and I couldn't manually re-install it.

If the 10.3.1 update includes the 2003-10-28 Security patch then I guess I'm OK.

Also, if re-installing Java from the 10.3 disk gives me the same result as installing as downloading the Java Panther update, then again, I guess I'm also OK...

Very confusing...

Eric

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by greenstork
Even though it used to wrk in Jaguar, I still can't play dominoes in Panther after 10.3.1 and Java 1.4.1 updates.

Yahoo>Games>Dominoes

Broken, I get a crash every time. :mad:

I tried, Yahoo Dominoes loads just fine for me. I even made a table and all as if I were going to play a game and everything was fine.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I tried, Yahoo Dominoes loads just fine for me. I even made a table and all as if I were going to play a game and everything was fine.

Ah-ha. It works in Safari, excllent. I always used to play in Firebird since the fonts looked so crappy in Safari, but herein lies the problem. Perhaps a Firebird upgrade is in order.

[WM.]

Originally posted by eogold
"If you have installed the "Security Update 2003-10-28" before following these steps you will additionally need to reinstall that update, as the Java package on the CD precedes it".

So I followed the directions and trashed the SecurityUpd2003-10-28.pkg receipt, and then attempted to re-download it using Software Update. However Software Update now does not show the Security Upddate 2003-10-28.
This is starting to get confusing. :) I wonder if, at this point, it wouldn't make more sense to just reinstall 10.3, 10.3.1, and the Java update (in that order and without installing any security updates, because they're included in 10.3.1 ).

Otherwise, maybe you could trash the receipt for 10.3.1 and then try to install the 10/28 security update (but I don't think you should try to install 10.3.1 again).

HTH/FWIW
WM

[b]edit: So, to summarize, IMHO your options are:

--Reinstall 10.3, 10.3.1, and Java update (major PITA, most likely)

--Delete 10.3.1 receipt and see if the 10/28 security update will then install

edit #2 Have you installed the Java update again? If so, I don't think you need to worry about the security update.

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by greenstork
Ah-ha. It works in Safari, excllent. I always used to play in Firebird since the fonts looked so crappy in Safari, but herein lies the problem. Perhaps a Firebird upgrade is in order.

Glad to see that you got it working again.

[iamscientist]

I'm not sure if I quite explained my predicament correctly before. Let me do it one more time and see if anyone can help me out (bear in mind, this is my first mac, so I'm new to Apple hardware):

I updated 10.2 to 10.3 and installed the 10-28 security update. I then installed 10.3.1 and Java 1.4.1. When I run terminal, I get this reading...

java version "1.3.1"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.3.1-root_1.3.1_030602-20:14)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.3.1_03-69, mixed mode)

This isn't in the Apple tech notes, so I'm not sure what to do. My software update says that Java 1.4.1 was successfully installed, but Terminal doesn't seem to be reading it. I am also unable to use any Java programs or visit Java sites. Am I still able to follow the Apple Tech Notes in my situation? Or should I just wait for Apple to put out an end-user solution? Like I said, I'm new to Apple hardware, and I'm afraid I'm going to mess up my system if I mess around too much. Thanks.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by iamscientist

...
This isn't in the Apple tech notes, so I'm not sure what to do. My software update says that Java 1.4.1 was successfully installed, but Terminal doesn't seem to be reading it. I am also unable to use any Java programs or visit Java sites. Am I still able to follow the Apple Tech Notes in my situation? Or should I just wait for Apple to put out an end-user solution? Like I said, I'm new to Apple hardware, and I'm afraid I'm going to mess up my system if I mess around too much. Thanks.

If you have an AppleCare agreement, I would call them first to ask.

I would feel comfortable following the tech note's instructions to re-install the Java.pkg from the Panther installation CD, etc. Obviously, you don't have those experiences to give you any comfort but I wonder if there are any others in your situation.

You might check http://www.macintouch.com to see if anyone has reported your specific situation. http://www.macfixit.com is also a good resource.

[Mac User Canada]

As someone who wrote technical manuals for almost 20 years, I feel obliged to point out that the ambiguity of Apple's tech note underscores the value clear and concise documenation.

It saddens me that downsizing and cutbacks have pushed the responsibility for such writing down to the technical staff, which for some of whom English is not their first language.

Please don't missunderstand me, many technical people write very well. However this technote serves as an example that even apparently simple information is subject to missinterpretation and it's writing should not be rushed.

I for one was very pleased with the performance improvements of Panther until I discovered that iCal stopped syncing with my Palm Tungsten T. Any advice anyone can offer with respect to that would be most appreciated.

MUC

[WM.]

Originally posted by eogold
WM. had it correct. Here's what Apple's technote says:

"If you have installed the "Security Update 2003-10-28" before following these steps you will additionally need to reinstall that update, as the Java package on the CD precedes it".

To me this implies that re-installing the Java from the 10.3 install disk somehow "uninstalls" the 2003-10-28 Security patch. Why else would you be directed to delete the *receipt" for the security patch? This simply allows Software Update to think that you "need" the 2003-10-28 Security patch, so you can download it again. However, in my case, since I had updated to 10.3.1, Software Update didn't "see" the patch and I couldn't manually re-install it.
Agreed.
If the 10.3.1 update includes the 2003-10-28 Security patch then I guess I'm OK.
That's the thing, though. If you reinstalled the original 10.3 Java after you updated to 10.3.1, that wiped out the security update--whether as a separate download or as part of 10.3.1. So I think you still need to find a way to apply it.
Also, if re-installing Java from the 10.3 disk gives me the same result as installing as downloading the Java Panther update, then again, I guess I'm also OK...
IMHO, it doesn't give the same result. I think the new Java update provides some additional improvements (aside from the security update and possibly fixing the installation problem) that you can only get by installing it. In other words, with the original 10.3 Java, not only are you without the 10/28 security update, but you're missing out on whatever other improvements there are in this new Java update.
Very confusing...
Indeed...

FWIW
WM

[WM.]

Originally posted by iamscientist
I'm not sure if I quite explained my predicament correctly before. Let me do it one more time and see if anyone can help me out (bear in mind, this is my first mac, so I'm new to Apple hardware):

I updated 10.2 to 10.3 and installed the 10-28 security update. I then installed 10.3.1 and Java 1.4.1. When I run terminal, I get this reading...

java version "1.3.1"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.3.1-root_1.3.1_030602-20:14)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.3.1_03-69, mixed mode)

This isn't in the Apple tech notes, so I'm not sure what to do. My software update says that Java 1.4.1 was successfully installed, but Terminal doesn't seem to be reading it. I am also unable to use any Java programs or visit Java sites. Am I still able to follow the Apple Tech Notes in my situation? Or should I just wait for Apple to put out an end-user solution? Like I said, I'm new to Apple hardware, and I'm afraid I'm going to mess up my system if I mess around too much. Thanks.
I don't think much of the discussion has been in response to your problem. Frankly, I don't think anyone has any idea what you should do. :) I haven't seen your problem anywhere else on the Web, and I'm pretty up-to-date on Macintouch. (Actually, there was some similar weirdness when 1.4.1 first came out [for Jaguar] several months ago, but that should be long fixed.) Certainly you do have 1.4.1 installed, in some form, because it's included in Panther.

I agree that it might be best to take it straight to Apple--if your Mac is less than 90 days old (or if you bought AppleCare), you still have free phone support. Otherwise...I guess a reinstall might be in order.

FWIW
WM

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by WM.
I'm not so sure. It seems to me like Apple would have said something like "this update fixes installation problems experienced with 10.3" if this were the case, but instead they refer to "functionality enhancements" or something like that. Plus it updates both 1.3.1 and 1.4.1. That sounds like a lot more than a fix for an installation issue to me.

Where are you getting this information? Not from Apple, I assume, since they haven't updated any KB or developer documentation to reflect this update (AFAICT).

WM

I ran a version check on the Java installed by default with my clean install of 10.3 including the 10.3.1 update. I then just to prove a point downloaded and installed the Java update in question. After restarting I then ran the version check again. No difference same exact build number.

Before update

[12-225-130-113:~] louis% java -version
java version "1.4.1_01"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.1_01-99)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.1_01-27, mixed mode)
[12-225-130-113:~] louis%


After update

[12-225-130-113:~] louis% java -version
java version "1.4.1_01"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.1_01-99)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.1_01-27, mixed mode)
[12-225-130-113:~] louis%

There is no need to install the update if you have the build shown in Apple knowledge base article about the bad Java install. This is the same Java update just reissued due to the failed install problem.

[lynnpye]

Originally posted by lynnpye
Those (like me) who did an upgrade instead of an archive/install and found their Java installation broken (HotSpot not found at virtual address message) will still have this problem after this upgrade.

I have upgraded to 10.3.1 and when I saw this Java update, I thought it might fix the problem, but it didn't.

Guess I'll have to go grab my disk and do the manual update *sigh*.
Hi folks.

I am in the group of folks who did the following:
- Had 10.2.x
- Had installed the QT/Java security patch
- Did an upgrade (not archive/install) to 10.3
- Noticed the problem with Java but didn't do anything with it, hoping to get a SU fix
- Upgraded to 10.3.1
- Updated the Java version via SU when it came available
- Saw that they still had a "broken" Java

I have seen a number of folks who have posted what they thought would fix the problem, but what I have not seen is a solution that:
- Fixes Java
- Reinstalls the QT/Java security patch
- Does not require a reinstall of 10.3
- Is "known" to fix everything

By that last point, I refer to folks who "say" that if you do the TN2099 fix, but don't do the QT/Java security fix, you still have the QT/Java security fix because you had done the 10.3.1 and Java SU updates. That approach made no sense to me. If TN2099 indicates you have to reapply QT/Java security patch after backlevelling Java to 10.3 version, that suggests the Java framework gets blown away and reinstalled as a result. Even over any SU versions that you may have upgraded to.

Anyway, I decided to go straight to Apple. I have an AppleCare contract and called them up. Essentially, what I was told was that they don't have any more information about it than we do and that the only solution they could think of was to take your current 10.3.1 install and do an Archive/Install back to 10.3 and then go forward from there.

Note that TN2099 does indicate that a user-level (as opposed to developer level) fix from Apple is pending.

I was also told to bring this up to the developers at Apple, though I was not given any indication as to how I might do this.

So, an indication of the "usefulness" of AppleCare? I don't want to condemn them on this point as this is probably a bit further into things than they are intended to go. But it does irritate me that this hasn't been addressed via SU yet and no word has been passed down to the front line support regarding this problem.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by lynnpye
Hi folks.

I am in the group of folks who did the following:
- Had 10.2.x
- Had installed the QT/Java security patch
- Did an upgrade (not archive/install) to 10.3
- Noticed the problem with Java but didn't do anything with it, hoping to get a SU fix
- Upgraded to 10.3.1
- Updated the Java version via SU when it came available
- Saw that they still had a "broken" Java

I have seen a number of folks who have posted what they thought would fix the problem, but what I have not seen is a solution that:
- Fixes Java
- Reinstalls the QT/Java security patch
- Does not require a reinstall of 10.3
- Is "known" to fix everything

By that last point, I refer to folks who "say" that if you do the TN2099 fix, but don't do the QT/Java security fix, you still have the QT/Java security fix because you had done the 10.3.1 and Java SU updates. That approach made no sense to me. If TN2099 indicates you have to reapply QT/Java security patch after backlevelling Java to 10.3 version, that suggests the Java framework gets blown away and reinstalled as a result. Even over any SU versions that you may have upgraded to.

Anyway, I decided to go straight to Apple. I have an AppleCare contract and called them up. Essentially, what I was told was that they don't have any more information about it than we do and that the only solution they could think of was to take your current 10.3.1 install and do an Archive/Install back to 10.3 and then go forward from there.

Note that TN2099 does indicate that a user-level (as opposed to developer level) fix from Apple is pending.

I was also told to bring this up to the developers at Apple, though I was not given any indication as to how I might do this.

So, an indication of the "usefulness" of AppleCare? I don't want to condemn them on this point as this is probably a bit further into things than they are intended to go. But it does irritate me that this hasn't been addressed via SU yet and no word has been passed down to the front line support regarding this problem.

To everyone in this predicament. A system reinstall will be the simplest way of curing your problem. Now this is not anywhere near as hard as you may think it is. All that you have to do is start up off your 10.3 install disks. Choose Archive install and chose the option to copy old prefs over. What will happen is a completely new system will be installed but your system prefs and option will be copied to this new system and thus saved. That's all you have to do. You will lose no data. You will not have to do anything but delete the old system which will be in a folder labeled previous system. You will have to change the permissions on the folder labeled 'previous system' in order to delete it. They do this so a non-admin user can't delete vital data on accident.

[eogold]

Originally posted by lynnpye
Hi folks.

I am in the group of folks who did the following:
- Had 10.2.x
- Had installed the QT/Java security patch
- Did an upgrade (not archive/install) to 10.3
- Noticed the problem with Java but didn't do anything with it, hoping to get a SU fix
- Upgraded to 10.3.1
- Updated the Java version via SU when it came available
- Saw that they still had a "broken" Java

I have seen a number of folks who have posted what they thought would fix the problem, but what I have not seen is a solution that:
- Fixes Java
- Reinstalls the QT/Java security patch
- Does not require a reinstall of 10.3
- Is "known" to fix everything


Here are a couple things I can add to the discussion:

1. I called Apple support yesterday. They were clueless about my predicament (were not even familiar with the Technote in question). Their only solution was to Archive/Install 10.3, update security via SU, run the 10.3.1 update.

2. Although I have not been having any Java problems and Terminal reports the correct java version, just for the heck of it I manually downloaded the Java/Panther update and successfully installed it.

Everything seems ok, so I guess the only remaining mystery is whether I am still without the 10-28 security update (which I cannot manually install).

I know I can easily do the Archive/Install but I am going to wait a bit to see if there is anything forthcoming from Apple.

There ought to be a solution from Apple that the average user who did an "Upgrade" install of 10.3 can use to get back to having a security-updated Mac and fully functional Java - with having to re-install Panther.

Eric

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by eogold
There ought to be a solution from Apple that the average user who did an "Upgrade" install of 10.3 can use to get back to having a security-updated Mac and fully functional Java - with having to re-install Panther.

Eric

In my opinion there is and it's called 10.3.1.

[eogold]

Originally posted by MacBandit
In my opinion there is and it's called 10.3.1.

MacBandit:

I'll make one more attempt to clarify for you...

I (and some of my clients) did the following:

1. Upgrade Install of 10.3
2. SU install of 10-28 Security Patch
3. SU install of 10.3.1
3. SU install of Java/Panther update

However, this still left us with a problematic Java installation as evidenced by an error message after typing "java -version" in Terminal.

Following the instructions in Apple Developer Technote,

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

resulted in the apparent loss of the 10-28 Security update (as plainly stated in the technote) and the inability to re-install the security update either via SU or manual download.

In addition there is the question of how the Panther/Java update was effected by following the technote instructions and re-installing the Java from the original 10.3 disk.

All Apple would recommend was to do an Archive/Install of 10.3, followed by the standard progression of SUs.

I do not understand your comment that the 10.3.1 update somehow solves the problem. As far as I can see, the only "clean" solution for folks in my situation is to reinstall 10.3 via Archive/Install.

My point was that Apple should have provided a way to totally fix the Java issue without forcing an Archive/Install.

Eric

[WM.]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I ran a version check on the Java installed by default with my clean install of 10.3 including the 10.3.1 update. I then just to prove a point downloaded and installed the Java update in question. After restarting I then ran the version check again. No difference same exact build number.

There is no need to install the update if you have the build shown in Apple knowledge base article about the bad Java install. This is the same Java update just reissued due to the failed install problem.
Did the build number (as reported by java -version) change with, say, Java 1.4.1 Update 1 (for Jaguar)? I suspect it didn't. I think java -version simply reports which version of the Java spec Apple is using--not which version of Apple's implementation you're running. IOW, I think java -version is reporting the versions of Sun things, not Apple things. So there could be "functionality and stability improvements" that would apply to everyone without incrementing the versions shown by java -version. And I think that's what this Java update is doing.

That said, I don't know a whole lot about Java. :)

WM

[WM.]

A few other things:

--I agree that it would be nice to see a SU fix for this predicament.

--I agree that the best (and, frankly, least confusing) solution at this point, barring a SU download anytime soon, is probably to do an archive and install, then install 10.3.1 and the Java update.

--I agree with lynnpye and eogold that they probably still have an unpatched security hole in their Java.

--I still suggest that perhaps they try deleting the 10.3.1 receipt and installing the 10-28 security update again. I assume that it currently won't install because it sees the 10.3.1 receipt; hopefully removing it would fix that problem.

FWIW
WM

[iamscientist]

I feel stupid for asking this, but I can't figure out how to reinstall 10.3 for archive install. I inserted my 10.3 disk 1 and went to install, but I'm not able to select the options tab when I go to do an archive install. It says I have a new version of OS X and cannot install it on the harddrive. I thought Apple computers weren't supposed to have any problems.... ugh.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by iamscientist
I feel stupid for asking this, but I can't figure out how to reinstall 10.3 for archive install. I inserted my 10.3 disk 1 and went to install, but I'm not able to select the options tab when I go to do an archive install. It says I have a new version of OS X and cannot install it on the harddrive. I thought Apple computers weren't supposed to have any problems.... ugh.

You need to select the clean install option then chose the archive selection. Sounds like you are still trying to do an update which it will not let you do because you have 10.3.1 and it can not backwards update. That would be retrograding.:p

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by eogold
MacBandit:

I'll make one more attempt to clarify for you...

I (and some of my clients) did the following:

1. Upgrade Install of 10.3
2. SU install of 10-28 Security Patch
3. SU install of 10.3.1
3. SU install of Java/Panther update

However, this still left us with a problematic Java installation as evidenced by an error message after typing "java -version" in Terminal.

Following the instructions in Apple Developer Technote,

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

resulted in the apparent loss of the 10-28 Security update (as plainly stated in the technote) and the inability to re-install the security update either via SU or manual download.

In addition there is the question of how the Panther/Java update was effected by following the technote instructions and re-installing the Java from the original 10.3 disk.

All Apple would recommend was to do an Archive/Install of 10.3, followed by the standard progression of SUs.

I do not understand your comment that the 10.3.1 update somehow solves the problem. As far as I can see, the only "clean" solution for folks in my situation is to reinstall 10.3 via Archive/Install.

My point was that Apple should have provided a way to totally fix the Java issue without forcing an Archive/Install.

Eric

I quite understand your problem from the your very first post. At this point the only sure fire answer is to do the archive install which will take all of 15 minutes.

What I have been trying to say is I believe the security update is built into 10.3.1 and there is no way of removing it without removing 10.3.1. This is my oppinion of course based on what I have read and the results of peoples experiences with 10.3.1 and this Java failure problem. Take if for what you will.

To end this once and for all and to save us all a bunch of time headaches I suggest just doing the reinstall and getting it overwith really it would take less time then you have put into trying to explain your issue to me again.

Sorry if this comes across wrong but I just can't seem to get my point across clearly enough.

[BUXEY]

What I find a bit strange is that when I checked in my software update panel I discovered that I already installed Java version 1.4.1 a long time ago! Why is this last update also called 1.4.1.?

[wms121]

..lets hope all these newer upgrades help us check for "clean 32 bit" addresses.

Try looking up some of the problems people at Sun and IBM are having with 64 bit Java and Sun's Java 64 extensions. I remember talking to a SGI guy concerning a 64-bit recompile a few years back...he looked so tired an beated it's as though he wished they "had never created 64 bit OS's or processors".

64-bit Universe..here we come Steve Jobs..

<---is going to buy an old performa 5400 for his daughter first