At least 37 shot, 8 die in violent Chicago weekend

[jb60606]

though city officials still gloat; homicide rate is down 1% from last year. Mayor blames shootings on the rising temperature.

CHICAGO (WLS) -- At least 37 people were shot in Chicago over the weekend. Eight of the shootings were fatal.

Chicago police received dozens of 911 calls about the gun violence around the city this weekend. They acknowledge that 37 shootings is a big number for a three-day period.

Six people were hit in three separate shootings late Sunday night on the city's West Side.

At about 10:30 p.m., witnesses say a car pulled up to a group of men standing on the corner of 21st and California and someone inside the car started shooting. A 26-year-old construction worker was killed and two of his friends were wounded.

Mouth Sinai Hospital treated three gunshot victims, including a man and woman who pulled up to the emergency room in their bullet riddled minivan.

A 25-year-old man was shot and killed near Karlov and Polk.

Maria Bejar decided to move from the Little Village neighborhood after her brother was shot to death last year.

"Hopefully, law enforcement gets stronger and hopefully they work something out on, because it's ridiculous that I can't enjoy myself at night because I'm always worried about getting shot or killed," said Maria Bejar, Chicago resident.

Police superintendent Jody Weis continues to blame gangs for the ongoing violence.

"You have too many guns and too many guns and too much drugs on the street," said Jody Weis.

Stopping the violence is now becoming a priority as the weather begins to warm up.

"It's going to be a long summer. Parents better take responsibility for them," said Daley.

Chicago's gangs

One gang expert in Chicago says that it is not just a matter of getting additional gun legislation, but also addressing the bigger problem of resolving poverty, especially in some of the most oppressed communities of the city. He said that one of the important things is to address these concerns, such as housing, displacement of residents. This displacement has, in his words, led to conflicts between gangs that used to be living in different areas. Now as they come together, conflict erupts over turf as these people try to compete for their business.
Criminologist and author John Hagedorn also went on to comparing the city of Chicago to the city of New York, which had one-third the homicide rate of Chicago last year. The reason for this, he said, is because the gangs are more entrenched here and therefore it is harder to fight
Wven though there has been a sharp decrease in homicides and other gun-related violence from 10 years ago, the fact remains Chicago last year had 443 homicides, New York had 496, but New York has three times the population, which effectively means Chicago has three times the murder rate.
Hagedorn says it goes back to the drug wars of the 1990s.
"In New York, nobody was really happy they were there and bringing the violence and so when the police cracked down, it broke the gangs up. Here, those same gangs have been there for 50 years," he said.
Hagedorn is the author of a book on gang culture. He says because the gangs are more entrenched here and less structured, they are harder to eradicate and he points to city housing policies which have weakened already poor neighborhoods.
"The housing needs to be improved. Lawndale used to be 120,000; now it's 40,000 people. Where are they? Nobody knows. We need to invest so that the people who live there have a reason to stay there," he said.
Hagedorn said if people are invested in the communities that they live in, they will no longer tolerate the gangs conducting their drug business there.

[leekohler]

Yes indeed- winter is over and out come the crazies. :(

[iJohnHenry]

NOW I know why all the hand-gun pics in the Post Your Last Purchase thread. ;)

[Krafty]

Mayor blames shootings on the rising temperature. Right with you, sir.
Damn you, Mother nature. You have taken lives once again....:confused:

[jb60606]

Right with you, sir.
Damn you, Mother nature. You have taken lives once again....:confused:

makes for an excellent segue into the global warming debate.

[leekohler]

Right with you, sir.
Damn you, Mother nature. You have taken lives once again....:confused:

Actually, that's true. Crime is very low here in the winter becasue it gets so snowy and cold. The criminals stay in more. There's always an explosion of viiolence around now because they all feel more comfortable outside.

The saddest thing is- the vast majority of all this violence is concentrated in certain neighborhoods. Most of the north and northwest side is very safe. Whenever this stuff comes up, it's always the same neighborhoods you hear about.

[ucfgrad93]

Most of the north and northwest side is very safe.

This just made me think about Bad, Bad Leroy Brown by Jim Croce

Well the south side of chicago
Is the baddest part of town
And if you go down there
You better just beware
Of a man named leroy brown

Not to make light of what happen this past weekend, mind you. Hopefully, things will settle down and this will be just an unfortunate isolated weekend.

[CanadaRAM]

At about 10:30 p.m., witnesses say a car pulled up to a group of men standing on the corner of 21st and California and someone inside the car started shooting. A 26-year-old construction worker was killed and two of his friends were wounded.Yup, sure am glad that the NRA supports handgun ownership for self protection. If the crowds on the street hadn't had their own personal weapons on them, who knows how many more people would have been killed. Guns save lives!

[Jaffa Cake]

Guns save lives!Guns don't save lives, bullets do.

[MBHockey]

though city officials still gloat; homicide rate is down 1% from last year. Mayor blames shootings on the rising temperature.

CHICAGO (WLS) -- At least 37 people were shot in Chicago over the weekend. Eight of the shootings were fatal.

Chicago police received dozens of 911 calls about the gun violence around the city this weekend. They acknowledge that 37 shootings is a big number for a three-day period.

Six people were hit in three separate shootings late Sunday night on the city's West Side.

At about 10:30 p.m., witnesses say a car pulled up to a group of men standing on the corner of 21st and California and someone inside the car started shooting. A 26-year-old construction worker was killed and two of his friends were wounded.

Mouth Sinai Hospital treated three gunshot victims, including a man and woman who pulled up to the emergency room in their bullet riddled minivan.

A 25-year-old man was shot and killed near Karlov and Polk.

Maria Bejar decided to move from the Little Village neighborhood after her brother was shot to death last year.

"Hopefully, law enforcement gets stronger and hopefully they work something out on, because it's ridiculous that I can't enjoy myself at night because I'm always worried about getting shot or killed," said Maria Bejar, Chicago resident.

Police superintendent Jody Weis continues to blame gangs for the ongoing violence.

"You have too many guns and too many guns and too much drugs on the street," said Jody Weis.

Stopping the violence is now becoming a priority as the weather begins to warm up.

"It's going to be a long summer. Parents better take responsibility for them," said Daley.

Chicago's gangs

One gang expert in Chicago says that it is not just a matter of getting additional gun legislation, but also addressing the bigger problem of resolving poverty, especially in some of the most oppressed communities of the city. He said that one of the important things is to address these concerns, such as housing, displacement of residents. This displacement has, in his words, led to conflicts between gangs that used to be living in different areas. Now as they come together, conflict erupts over turf as these people try to compete for their business.
Criminologist and author John Hagedorn also went on to comparing the city of Chicago to the city of New York, which had one-third the homicide rate of Chicago last year. The reason for this, he said, is because the gangs are more entrenched here and therefore it is harder to fight
Wven though there has been a sharp decrease in homicides and other gun-related violence from 10 years ago, the fact remains Chicago last year had 443 homicides, New York had 496, but New York has three times the population, which effectively means Chicago has three times the murder rate.
Hagedorn says it goes back to the drug wars of the 1990s.
"In New York, nobody was really happy they were there and bringing the violence and so when the police cracked down, it broke the gangs up. Here, those same gangs have been there for 50 years," he said.
Hagedorn is the author of a book on gang culture. He says because the gangs are more entrenched here and less structured, they are harder to eradicate and he points to city housing policies which have weakened already poor neighborhoods.
"The housing needs to be improved. Lawndale used to be 120,000; now it's 40,000 people. Where are they? Nobody knows. We need to invest so that the people who live there have a reason to stay there," he said.
Hagedorn said if people are invested in the communities that they live in, they will no longer tolerate the gangs conducting their drug business there.

Wow. I really thought this was from The Onion. That is crazy.

[jb60606]

before it becomes a debate:

firearms are illegal in Chicago. Only those that legally purchased theirs prior to 1980/70-something and re-registered it every year since the ban went into place, are allowed to keep theirs.

[rhett7660]

Yes indeed- winter is over and out come the crazies.

That is the freaking truth everywhere I live also.....

[Desertrat]

CanadaRAM, it wouldn't hurt if you had some understanding about the general subject. It is far more difficult for a law-abiding person to legally acquire any firearm, nowadays, than it was prior to 1968--much less 1934. Illinois is a state with even more restrictive state laws than most; Chicago has traditonally been anti-gun in its municipal government.

Gangs, drugs and guns go together--past, present and future. There's not a law that can be passed that will stop it. And even if poverty were ended, the competition for sales of drugs would have the violence continuing...

[leekohler]

CanadaRAM, it wouldn't hurt if you had some understanding about the general subject. It is far more difficult for a law-abiding person to legally acquire any firearm, nowadays, than it was prior to 1968--much less 1934. Illinois is a state with even more restrictive state laws than most; Chicago has traditonally been anti-gun in its municipal government.

Gangs, drugs and guns go together--past, present and future. There's not a law that can be passed that will stop it. And even if poverty were ended, the competition for sales of drugs would have the violence continuing...

Yep- once again I can't say this enough, we have a cultural problem, not a gun problem. Our gun laws are very restrictive here and it hasn't accomplished one thing.

[iJohnHenry]

Yep.

If the parents were held accountable for their children, and the state stayed out of the corporal punishment arena, things might change for the better.

Abuse laws would still prevail for the less "delicate", so don't give me that excuse.

[djellison]

Compare to Canada and it's very large gun ownership, and the reality is that it's not a gun problem - it's fundamentally a sociological problem - and I don't think anyone knows how to fix it.

Doug

[leekohler]

Compare to Canada and it's very large gun ownership, and the reality is that it's not a gun problem - it's fundamentally a sociological problem - and I don't think anyone knows how to fix it.

Doug

It does present a problem, to be sure. I can tell you one thing I think- legalize drugs and tax the crap out of them. The gangs will be out of business at least as far as drugs are concerned.

[iJohnHenry]

We have our fair share of gang killings in Toronto, believe me. With many truly innocent bystanders shot as well.

Drugs go South, guns come North.

I could draw you a better picture, but I'm sure I would be flogged as being a racist. And I'm not speaking of the large Black population in Toronto. They are looking for an answer, the same as the rest of us.

[trebblekicked]

Yep- once again I can't say this enough, we have a cultural problem, not a gun problem. Our gun laws are very restrictive here and it hasn't accomplished one thing.

Seconded.

I don't have any statistics, but my gut says that most of the killings in Chicago are gang related. Same lessons from prohibition; if gang member A wants to kill gang member B, he's not going to stop because guns are against the law.

I am curious if it's cut down on the domestic violence type of murders, and if there's been an increase in home invasion-type crime since the gun ban.

[leekohler]

Seconded.

I don't have any statistics, but my gut says that most of the killings in Chicago are gang related. Same lessons from prohibition; if gang member A wants to kill gang member B, he's not going to stop because guns are against the law.

I am curious if it's cut down on the domestic violence type of murders, and if there's been an increase in home invasion-type crime since the gun ban.

Hmm...that would be interesting to know for sure.

[jb60606]

Seconded.
I am curious if it's cut down on the domestic violence type of murders, and if there's been an increase in home invasion-type crime since the gun ban.

I'm guessing 'Yes', for both. More importantly, the major decrease in homicides in NYC and LA after their gun bans were lifted is pretty jarring.

I'm not saying Chicago should lift the gun ban, and, I in fact admire the city for "sticking to it's guns" (no pun intended). There are a lot of things I want to teach my children, and how to shoot a gun isn't one of them.

[leekohler]

I'm guessing 'Yes', for both. More importantly, the major decrease in homicides in NYC and LA after their gun bans were lifted is pretty jarring.

I'm not saying Chicago should lift the gun ban, and, I in fact admire the city for "sticking to it's guns" (no pun intended). There are a lot of things I want to teach my children, and how to shoot a gun isn't one of them.

What's to admire? It's been an utter failure. My dad taught me how to use several different kinds of guns and made me take a safety course. I'm still here.

[ucfgrad93]

What's to admire? It's been an utter failure. My dad taught me how to use several different kinds of guns and made me take a safety course. I'm still here.

Just like Washington DC. Very strict gun laws, high murder rate.

[jb60606]

What's to admire? It's been an utter failure. My dad taught me how to use several different kinds of guns and made me take a safety course. I'm still here.

good for you. Though, nothing you can say could possibly convince me that arming our kids is the answer & fix.

[Zwhaler]

Saw this on the news tonight. The source is guns, gangs, and drugs. Apparently 2006 was deadlier than this and last year. 420 weekend FTL...

[Gelfin]

See, what you should have done is to ask your city to implement even more strict gun laws. That's what we did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_H), and the whole thing was shot down in court inside a month. Problem solved. :rolleyes:

[trebblekicked]

Something else to consider:

37 shootings in the south side is news. But I'd wager dollars to donuts that 2 shootings in Lakeview in one weekend would be just as big. Or two in a month in Lincoln Park. Or two a year on the mag mile. In other words, we've relegated most of the troubles worth killing over to the south side.

The answer, in my eyes, then is obvious. Less poverty = less murder. The solution, the way to get the Back Of The Yards to a sustainable, pleasant, prosperous existence? To quote 'Rat, Damfino. But I somehow doubt making guns "even illegaller" is the answer.

[sushi]

Gangs, drugs and guns go together--past, present and future. There's not a law that can be passed that will stop it. And even if poverty were ended, the competition for sales of drugs would have the violence continuing...

Yep- once again I can't say this enough, we have a cultural problem, not a gun problem. Our gun laws are very restrictive here and it hasn't accomplished one thing.
You both make good points.

The person that pulls the trigger is the issue that needs to be addressed.

[blackfox]

As someone who just got back from a visit to Chicago (lee - sorry we didn't get to meet), it is interesting how isolated the violence is in Chicago. I was in the North (wicker park) and felt completely safe. Trebblekicked already spoke to this point...as someone unfamiliar with Chicago, I am not sure how it got to be this way.

[PlaceofDis]

Actually, that's true. Crime is very low here in the winter becasue it gets so snowy and cold. The criminals stay in more. There's always an explosion of viiolence around now because they all feel more comfortable outside.

very true. first warm day of the year, and i wake up to find my car broken into. no surprise. people stay in when its cold, beginning of the warm weather and they come out in full force.

The saddest thing is- the vast majority of all this violence is concentrated in certain neighborhoods. Most of the north and northwest side is very safe. Whenever this stuff comes up, it's always the same neighborhoods you hear about.

its safe, but there are still gangs on the NW side to be sure; they're more troublesome (as in graffiti and damages than killings) than anything. but still an issue that needs to be addressed.

It does present a problem, to be sure. I can tell you one thing I think- legalize drugs and tax the crap out of them. The gangs will be out of business at least as far as drugs are concerned.

that is one point that i would think would help decline the violence, since there would be less of an issue for them to fight over. as it is impossible to control the inflow of guns. but who is to say that they'll stop peddling drugs? if they can find a source still, and undercut the price... like a black goods market, they'd find buyers. would they then turn to other sorts of crime? hard to say. but who knows.

[leekohler]

good for you. Though, nothing you can say could possibly convince me that arming our kids is the answer & fix.

Pretending something doesn't exist and trying to wish it away isn't the answer either. And I'm not trying to sound rude- it's just that that approach never works with anything.

[jb60606]

Pretending something doesn't exist and trying to wish it away isn't the answer either. And I'm not trying to sound rude- it's just that that approach never works with anything.

No one is pretending it isn't there. And carrying a gun isn't the only way to demonstrate awareness... maybe paranoia and narrow-mindedness.

[leekohler]

No one is pretending it isn't there. And carrying a gun isn't the only way to demonstrate awareness... maybe paranoia and narrow-mindedness.

No- it isn't. However, it never hurts to educate oneself. Who said I carry a gun? I don't and I can't. It's illegal here. Even if it were legal, I still probably wouldn't. I have enough to carry around as is. ;)

That said- our gun laws aren't working. That much should be achingly clear. And really, how much more restrictive could they be? They're already some of the toughest in the country. Why aren't they working? Because guns aren't the real issue in the first place.

[Desertrat]

Folks regularly talk about comparative gun control laws and homicide rates. Okay, Mexico's gun control laws make Illinois and Canada look like no-controls, open-carry by comparison. The homicide rate there is way above that of the U.S., and if you watch the news from down south at all, you'll note that the more hazardous occupations from the standpoint of getting shoot are journalist, police chief and political candidate. And for all the talk about illicit weapons from the U.S., I note that the use of fully automatic weapons is rather commonplace--which damned sure don't come from the U.S.

Get found out in Mexico with a live round of ammo in your vehicle and you're gone to jail for five years or more. That it was an overlooked item from a hunting trip doesn't matter. A gun? Doesn't matter what your past record was; you're gone for twenty years--which, in a Mexican jail, is tantamount to a death sentence unless you're rich.

Doesn't slow down the homicide rates any, though.

[solvs]

The saddest thing is- the vast majority of all this violence is concentrated in certain neighborhoods. Most of the north and northwest side is very safe. Whenever this stuff comes up, it's always the same neighborhoods you hear about.
You should come here, crime is all over and year round.

Yup, sure am glad that the NRA supports handgun ownership for self protection. If the crowds on the street hadn't had their own personal weapons on them, who knows how many more people would have been killed. Guns save lives!
You won't get anywhere with this. America loves their guns. For better or worse. Drugs and poverty are more the problem anyway, though illegal guns are far too easy to get.

If the parents were held accountable for their children
That's a bit simplistic too I'm afraid.

[LethalWolfe]

Lee saved me a lot of typing 'cause I pretty much away w/his posts.

that is one point that i would think would help decline the violence, since there would be less of an issue for them to fight over. as it is impossible to control the inflow of guns. but who is to say that they'll stop peddling drugs? if they can find a source still, and undercut the price... like a black goods market, they'd find buyers. would they then turn to other sorts of crime? hard to say. but who knows.
Granted all one can do is speculate, but if you look at before, during, and after prohibition I think legalization would do a lot to impact gang violence. Why would one seek out a dealer when going down to the corner store would be cheaper, safer, legal, and more convenient? If selling on the streets is no longer a money maker then fighting over turf no longer has significant economic consequences. Sure there will still be gangs, and criminals, and illegal activities that generate money for gangs, but the illicit drug windfall will no long be a part of that equation. From what I've read the increased gun violence in England is being largely attributed to an increase in drug related gang violence.

Of course the odds of an significant change in the drug policy of this country are pretty much between slim and none.


Lethal

[stevegmu]

Lee saved me a lot of typing 'cause I pretty much away w/his posts.


Granted all one can do is speculate, but if you look at before, during, and after prohibition I think legalization would do a lot to impact gang violence. Why would one seek out a dealer when going down to the corner store would be cheaper, safer, legal, and more convenient? If selling on the streets is no longer a money maker then fighting over turf no longer has significant economic consequences. Sure there will still be gangs, and criminals, and illegal activities that generate money for gangs, but the illicit drug windfall will no long be a part of that equation. From what I've read the increased gun violence in England is being largely attributed to an increase in drug related gang violence.

Of course the odds of an significant change in the drug policy of this country are pretty much between slim and none.


Lethal

Why would these drug addicts go to the store to buy highly-taxed drugs, when the corner drug dealer would charge less? If cigarettes are over $4/pack, I can't imagine how expensive drugs would be, if sold in state stores.

[solvs]

Why would these drug addicts go to the store to buy highly-taxed drugs, when the corner drug dealer would charge less? If cigarettes are over $4/pack, I can't imagine how expensive drugs would be, if sold in state stores.
How many drug dealers are selling cheap cigarettes? Plus, do you know how expensive illegal drugs are? Er, I mean, cuz I sure don't. :o

[leekohler]

How many drug dealers are selling cheap cigarettes? Plus, do you know how expensive illegal drugs are? Er, I mean, cuz I sure don't. :o

Exactly. If anything, drugs would end up cheaper if made legal.

[LethalWolfe]

Why would these drug addicts go to the store to buy highly-taxed drugs, when the corner drug dealer would charge less? If cigarettes are over $4/pack, I can't imagine how expensive drugs would be, if sold in state stores.
Stores would be safer (no unknown substances mixed in), more convenient, legal, and I would assume cheaper. Illegally producing, trafficking, and selling drugs has to have a high overhead cost that would be eliminated by legal sales.


Lethal

[jb60606]

5 more shot/killed in a home on the South Side today. Also, two more stabbed to death in an attempted robbery.

This isn't good:

It has been revealed that leaders of Chicago's (and two of America's) largest gangs; the Gangster Disciples and Latin Kings, were recently jailed long term. The increase in violence may be a result of competition for the top spot, or just complete lack of organization within the two gangs. Police say they expect this to be one of the bloodiest summers in the city's history.

On the plus side, thus far, only 14 of the shootings have been proven to be gang related. I'm sure that number will rise though. It's only been a few days.

[leekohler]

5 more shot/killed in a home on the South Side today. Also, two more stabbed to death in an attempted robbery.

This isn't good:

It has been revealed that leaders of Chicago's (and two of America's) largest gangs; the Gangster Disciples and Latin Kings, were recently jailed long term. The increase in violence may be a result of competition for the top spot, or just complete lack of organization within the two gangs. Police say they expect this to be one of the bloodiest summers in the city's history.

Oh man- you could be absolutely right. :(

[iJohnHenry]

That's a bit simplistic too I'm afraid.

That's me all over. Simple. :p

BUT, they brought the little bastard (can I say that here - let's see) into the World, they should be able to OK taking him/her out. :eek:

(Runs and hides in a corner.)

[jb60606]

That's me all over. Simple. :p

BUT, they brought the little bastard (can I say that here - let's see) into the World, they should be able to OK taking him/her out. :eek:

(Runs and hides in a corner.)

I don't know about "taking them out" but I agree parents should be held accountable to, at least, some degree. When I was a kid, (sometimes with the help of my eldest sister) my mother would do so much as ditch work early to make sure I was at home by 6 (in the summer, earlier during the winter/fall), and at the dinner table doing home work by 7pm. No exceptions.

If I wasn't home (which was often in my mischievous teens), she'd literally chase me down at my known hangouts. It was embarrassing at times; having your mother chastise and drag you out in front of your friends, but, seeing the path that many of those friends have since taken; I'm pretty thankful. I'm not perfect, but, I don't have a criminal record as an adult either. My older sisters are freaking beacons of perfection. And she was a single, uneducated mother (at the time), raising 3 kids on the West side.

I remember giggling during that segment of the movie "Starship Troopers", when they mentioned that they need a license to breed. Call it extreme, but I'm starting to believe that it may not be such a bad idea in many cases.

[jb60606]

and to whoever brought it up; you can indeed buy cigarettes on the black market.

I pay about $8 - $9 for cigs in downtown Chicago, but a "friend of mine" used to buy them for about $4.00 a pack off of some friendly folks (Missourians, I think?) that could acquire them for far less. Differing laws and taxes in neighboring states/counties left as much as a 70% price gap in tobacco. The government cracked down on it hard since, but "tobacco smuggling" is still a semi lucrative business.

I prefer paying full price now, as I smoke far less now and credit that to Cook county's crazy cig taxes. They're helping me quit.

[Eraserhead]

Folks regularly talk about comparative gun control laws and homicide rates.

In Switzerland I believe everyone who goes in the army (and they have national service) has a gun, and they probably have 37 shootings in the whole country in a year.

[Eraserhead]

and to whoever brought it up; you can indeed buy cigarettes on the black market.

I pay about $8 - $9 for cigs in downtown Chicago, but a "friend of mine" used to buy them for about $4.00 a pack off of some friendly folks (Missourians, I think?) that could acquire them for far less.

That's not really like drug smuggling though, its just buying them across the state border. Its like buying alcohol in France and selling in England cheaply, you won't get caught at the border (as its legal for personal use), and only have a tiny chance of getting caught selling it...

[jb60606]

That's not really like drug smuggling though, its just buying them across the state border. Its like buying alcohol in France and selling in England cheaply, you won't get caught at the border (as its legal for personal use), and only have a tiny chance of getting caught selling it...

Just making a point that they are indeed being sold on the BM.

[leekohler]

Just making a point that they are indeed being sold on the BM.

Hardly the same thing at all. And having your friends buy you cigarettes from another state now constitutes a "black market"? There's actually people starting businesses doing this? Can you point me in their direction? ;)

[jb60606]

Hardly the same thing at all. And having your friends buy you cigarettes from another state now constitutes a "black market"? There's actually people starting businesses doing this? Can you point me in their direction? ;)

"Black market" is a market consisting of all commerce on which applicable taxes and/or regulations of trade are being avoided. Everyone has purchased off of the BM at one point or another; many without even knowing it. It's that common. Remember that deal that was "too good to be true"? And while it isn't exactly drug dealing - tax evasion is tax evasion.

And he wasn't a friend, so to speak - but a drug dealer whom also dabbled in the sale of Tobacco.

If you want to see the price spread, just google "discount cigarettes", and check out the prices on cartons. Being in Illinois, you can't actually buy from them (as I learned 5yrs ago when ordering from "dirtcheapcigs.com", and recently got a claim from the govt stating I owed them $12 :) )

[leekohler]

"Black market" is a market consisting of all commerce on which applicable taxes and/or regulations of trade are being avoided. Everyone has purchased off of the BM at one point or another; many without even knowing it. It's that common.

And he wasn't a friend, so to speak - but a drug dealer whom also dabbled in the sale of Tobacco.

You get by with a little help from you friends? :)

Still- it seems like a huge hassle.

[jb60606]

You get by with a little help from you friends? :)

Still - it seems like a huge hassle.

Nah, not really. You did have to buy 3 or 5+ cartons at a time (I think 5 cartons cost me $175 or something), but the price per pack was worth it.

[Desertrat]

Some perspective from

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-oped0424chapmanapr24,0,5976650.column

"The recent spate of killings gives a misleading impression. Since the peak years of the early 1990s, the number of murders in Chicago has fallen by more than half. In the first three months of this year, homicides were down by 1.1 percent. No one would describe the current murder rate as acceptable, but the city has made huge progress."

"As of March 31, there had been 87 homicides in the city. When I asked the Chicago Police Department how many of the murders are known to have involved assault rifles, the answer came back: One."


The City Council and the TopCop talk about gun control and again get into Babbleville about "assault weapons".

"It's true those gun homicides also fell while the (assault weaopons) law was in effect. Does that prove the value of the ban? Not exactly, since stabbing deaths fell even faster, as did murders involving crowbars, baseball bats and other blunt objects. Obviously other factors were behind the improvement."

I guess the deal for all politicians, everywhere, is that when they're helpless to deal with reality, they promise to "do something", no matter how useless the effort.

'Rat

[solvs]

When large amounts of people start dying over widespread cigarette smuggling, when cigarette related crime goes up, then we can compare them.

[jb60606]

for the last time - I was just making the point that they're indeed actively sold on the black market. I'm not sure of in what context the argument was originally brought up, but I think it had something to do with heavily taxing legalized drugs. Someone hinted that, despite skyrocketing tobacco taxes, it wasn't being sold on the black market.

I'm not comparing cigarettes to drugs, and never was. Just making a correction.

[stevegmu]

Stores would be safer (no unknown substances mixed in), more convenient, legal, and I would assume cheaper. Illegally producing, trafficking, and selling drugs has to have a high overhead cost that would be eliminated by legal sales.


Lethal

If marijuana cigarettes were, say, 10X the price of a pack of cigarettes, for half as many- say 10 joints, that would make them over $50/pack. I'm basing these figures on the accepted belief that 1 marijuana joint is 10 times stronger than 1 cigarette- at least that's what I was taught years ago in health-class.

Drug dealers would simply no longer exist if drugs were legal?

[stevegmu]

Hardly the same thing at all. And having your friends buy you cigarettes from another state now constitutes a "black market"? There's actually people starting businesses doing this? Can you point me in their direction? ;)

http://www.lawfuel.com/show-release.asp?ID=17753

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jSCMmnomckL6_Q0NWr9_2CWUXjWwD8VV6OC00

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/04/26/beacon_hills_gift_to_the_black_market/

[solvs]

I'm basing these figures on the accepted belief that 1 marijuana joint is 10 times stronger than 1 cigarette
First of all, what? :confused: Second... really, why would it be based on that? Your whole argument falls apart if it's based on this. Drugs would cost whatever they cost to manufacture, plus advertising, plus distribution, plus mark up, plus taxes. Same as the legal ones do now. Why would that change? :rolleyes:

for the last time - I was just making the point that they're indeed actively sold on the black market. I'm not sure of in what context the argument was originally brought up, but I think it had something to do with heavily taxing legalized drugs. Someone hinted that, despite skyrocketing tobacco taxes, it wasn't being sold on the black market.

I'm not comparing cigarettes to drugs, and never was. Just making a correction.
http://www.lawfuel.com/show-release.asp?ID=17753

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jSCMmnomckL6_Q0NWr9_2CWUXjWwD8VV6OC00

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/04/26/beacon_hills_gift_to_the_black_market/
And I think you're both missing my point. You can't compare the current black market sale of drugs to that of things like cigarettes. There will still be a black market, I'm sure, but nothing like what it is today. If you outlaw cigarettes, like they tried to do with alcohol, then the black market for them will go back to being violent and filled with the expensive things people so desperate for them will steal for. The black market for cigarettes is about getting around taxes and driving prices lower. For illegal drugs, there aren't too many alternatives to buy them, so they can be expensive, are driven underground, and lead to what we currently have that isn't working.

I don't know the answer to this issue, but it isn't what we're doing right now.

[LethalWolfe]

If marijuana cigarettes were, say, 10X the price of a pack of cigarettes, for half as many- say 10 joints, that would make them over $50/pack. I'm basing these figures on the accepted belief that 1 marijuana joint is 10 times stronger than 1 cigarette- at least that's what I was taught years ago in health-class.

Drug dealers would simply no longer exist if drugs were legal?
In this apparently baseless, hypothetical situation that conveniently conforms to you opinions on the matter, yes you are right. ;) Of course drug dealers would still exist just like moonshiners still exist. But when was the last time there was a shoot out in Chicago, LA, or New York centered around bootleg whiskey?

http://www.lawfuel.com/show-release.asp?ID=17753

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jSCMmnomckL6_Q0NWr9_2CWUXjWwD8VV6OC00

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/04/26/beacon_hills_gift_to_the_black_market/
Kinda, sorta, not really. The production, distribution, and sale of cigarettes is legal in the US. All these guys are doing is bypassing the taxman. Not quite the same thing as growing weed in another country, smuggling it into the US, distributing it and finally selling it on street corners. How many people die each year as a result of black market cigarette violence? How much of the prison over population problem is related to mandatory minimum sentences for possession of cigarette's w/o a tax stamp? How many public tax dollars are going to build more prisons instead of schools because of the cigarette black market?



Lethal

[stevegmu]

In this apparently baseless, hypothetical situation that conveniently conforms to you opinions on the matter, yes you are right. ;) Of course drug dealers would still exist just like moonshiners still exist. But when was the last time there was a shoot out in Chicago, LA, or New York centered around bootleg whiskey?


Kinda, sorta, not really. The production, distribution, and sale of cigarettes is legal in the US. All these guys are doing is bypassing the taxman. Not quite the same thing as growing weed in another country, smuggling it into the US, distributing it and finally selling it on street corners. How many people die each year as a result of black market cigarette violence? How much of the prison over population problem is related to mandatory minimum sentences for possession of cigarette's w/o a tax stamp? How many public tax dollars are going to build more prisons instead of schools because of the cigarette black market?



Lethal


What the pro-drug crowd seems to ignore, is that legalization would not make drugs like marijuana cheap- especially since it would be heavily taxed, and 'watered-down.'
Is marijuana in Amsterdam cheaper than it is on the streets here?

People don't go to jail in the US for simple possession. It takes a lot of convictions to be sent to prison for drugs, unless someone is trafficking.

[leekohler]

What the pro-drug crowd seems to ignore, is that legalization would not make drugs like marijuana cheap- especially since it would be heavily taxed, and 'watered-down.'
Is marijuana in Amsterdam cheaper than it is on the streets here?

People don't go to jail in the US for simple possession. It takes a lot of convictions to be sent to prison for drugs, unless someone is trafficking.

Really? Interesting. Just look at the laws for possession in Illinois: http://norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4535

[LethalWolfe]

What the pro-drug crowd seems to ignore, is that legalization would not make drugs like marijuana cheap- especially since it would be heavily taxed, and 'watered-down.'
I'm not sure why you are quoting me and using the term "pro-drug" when I've said nothing promoting or endorsing drug use. I'm not "for" people using drugs I'm against ineffective, window dressing legislation that causes more problems than it solves.


Is marijuana in Amsterdam cheaper than it is on the streets here?
Well, are you a Dutch purchaser w/the exchange rate in your favor or a US purchaser w/the exchange rate against you? ;)

Wouldn't a better question be is marijuana sold in coffee shops in Amsterdam cheaper than what's sold illegally on the streets of Amsterdam? Or how many people there buy legally and how many people buy illegally? Or what is the Dutch position on rehab vs incarceration and how effective is their policy? Or what is the level of drug related violence there?


People don't go to jail in the US for simple possession. It takes a lot of convictions to be sent to prison for drugs, unless someone is trafficking.
It actually doesn't take "a lot" of convictions to end up in prison but that's side-stepping the over-all point that their really is no comparison between the black market cigarette trade and the illegal drug trade in the US.

How many people are in jail (and for how long) for trafficking cigarettes w/o the proper tax stamp? How many people are in jail (and for how long) for buying and/or possessing packs of cigarettes w/o the the proper tax stamp? How many people die each year for violent crimes related to the black market dealings of cigarettes w/o the proper tax stamp?


Lethal

[solvs]

I'm not sure why you are quoting me and using the term "pro-drug" when I've said nothing promoting or endorsing drug use.
Because with him the world is completely black and white and if you're not wildly against something, you're wildly for it. Yeah, I know, doesn't make sense to me either. You can actually come right out and say you are against drugs legal or illegal and you're still prodrug and want kids getting high on the street. At least this time he didn't call you a hippie. :p But I doubt you'll get an answer to your questions.

On topic:
After years of open drug use, today "the crime rate is going down substantially in all of Amsterdam," said Jan Van Dijk, head of the Dutch Justice Ministry's crime-prevention division. Striving for violence-free, drug-free streets, America's yearly arrests for drug possession, sale or manufacturing reached 1.1 million by 1993, according to the FBI. The U.S. has raised its federal drug-control budget to $13.3 billion this year, a dramatic increase from $1.5 billion in 1981.

But brutal crimes, including killings over sales turf, still happen daily in America. The latest Bureau of Justice Statistics survey of U.S. prison inmates in 1991 found that 27 percent of robbers admitted they committed crimes to buy drugs; 30 percent of burglars said so, and 5 percent of convicted murderers did.

http://www.nationalfamilies.org/publications/about_nfia/amsterdam.html

[stevegmu]

Really? Interesting. Just look at the laws for possession in Illinois: http://norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4535

You seem to think the laws and legal process are black and white, cut and dry. Rarely is a 1st, or 2nd time offender sentenced to any jail-time. Usually, there is probation, then treatment, then reduction of charges and more probation and treatment. It is actually quite difficult for one to go to jail for simple possession, unless they have a long criminal record.

[stevegmu]

I'm not sure why you are quoting me and using the term "pro-drug" when I've said nothing promoting or endorsing drug use. I'm not "for" people using drugs I'm against ineffective, window dressing legislation that causes more problems than it solves.


Well, are you a Dutch purchaser w/the exchange rate in your favor or a US purchaser w/the exchange rate against you? ;)

Wouldn't a better question be is marijuana sold in coffee shops in Amsterdam cheaper than what's sold illegally on the streets of Amsterdam? Or how many people there buy legally and how many people buy illegally? Or what is the Dutch position on rehab vs incarceration and how effective is their policy? Or what is the level of drug related violence there?


It actually doesn't take "a lot" of convictions to end up in prison but that's side-stepping the over-all point that their really is no comparison between the black market cigarette trade and the illegal drug trade in the US.

How many people are in jail (and for how long) for trafficking cigarettes w/o the proper tax stamp? How many people are in jail (and for how long) for buying and/or possessing packs of cigarettes w/o the the proper tax stamp? How many people die each year for violent crimes related to the black market dealings of cigarettes w/o the proper tax stamp?


Lethal

Yet you keep bringing up the cigarette/drug analogy.

Where do you think drug addicts get money to buy drugs? Unless drugs were free, crime would skyrocket if drugs were widely and easily obtainable.
Personally, I think all drugs should be legal- as long as they would be free, and there were extremely harsh punishments for those caught in public while high. Let them kill themselves. The greatest thing that would happen to DC would be if every crack/heroin/PCP addict overdosed. The problem is, drugs are not free, and never will be- even if legal, so addicts will 'have' to commit crimes- burglaries/robberies/theft- in order to get their fix. Dealers will always exist, as well as the crime surrounding them. Rather than rely on drugs from Canada or Mexico, they would just rob the corner drug store, processing plant, or intercept the drugs in transit to the corner drug stores.

[LethalWolfe]

Why would these drug addicts go to the store to buy highly-taxed drugs, when the corner drug dealer would charge less? If cigarettes are over $4/pack, I can't imagine how expensive drugs would be, if sold in state stores.

If marijuana cigarettes were, say, 10X the price of a pack of cigarettes, for half as many- say 10 joints, that would make them over $50/pack. I'm basing these figures on the accepted belief that 1 marijuana joint is 10 times stronger than 1 cigarette- at least that's what I was taught years ago in health-class.


http://www.lawfuel.com/show-release.asp?ID=17753

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jSCMmnomckL6_Q0NWr9_2CWUXjWwD8VV6OC00

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/04/26/beacon_hills_gift_to_the_black_market/
Yet you keep bringing up the cigarette/drug analogy.
You brought up the analogy, and kept trying to justify the analogy, so just stop swinging and I'll stop pointing out that the horse is dead.


Where do you think drug addicts get money to buy drugs? Unless drugs were free, crime would skyrocket if drugs were widely and easily obtainable.
Personally, I think all drugs should be legal- as long as they would be free, and there were extremely harsh punishments for those caught in public while high. Let them kill themselves. The greatest thing that would happen to DC would be if every crack/heroin/PCP addict overdosed. The problem is, drugs are not free, and never will be- even if legal, so addicts will 'have' to commit crimes- burglaries/robberies/theft- in order to get their fix. Dealers will always exist, as well as the crime surrounding them. Rather than rely on drugs from Canada or Mexico, they would just rob the corner drug store, processing plant, or intercept the drugs in transit to the corner drug stores.
You seem to think the world is black and white, cut and dry.


Lethal

[Cromulent]

What's to admire? It's been an utter failure. My dad taught me how to use several different kinds of guns and made me take a safety course. I'm still here.

It's not rocket science really. A gun ban doesn't do much if someone can just get guns legally in the next state / city. It needs to be across the whole country not just localised.

[LethalWolfe]

It's not rocket science really. A gun ban doesn't do much if someone can just get guns legally in the next state / city. It needs to be across the whole country not just localised.
So then people just bring in firearms from other countries (which is what England has been wrestling w/for years). Problem moved, not problem solved.


Lethal

[leekohler]

So then people just bring in firearms from other countries (which is what England has been wrestling w/for years). Problem moved, not problem solved.


Lethal

Exactly, it's the same situation with drugs. The answer isn't bans, people. Like everything else, it's about education.

[jb60606]

EDIT:

nm. Dont you hate it when you accidentally answer your own questions?

As simplistic as they make it seem (all-out ban), Chicago's guns laws are confusing as hell on paper.

[iCheese]

No one is pretending it isn't there. And carrying a gun isn't the only way to demonstrate awareness... maybe paranoia and narrow-mindedness.

Now that I have 100 posts and can respond to this thread, I just wanted to say something. I made the personal decision to carry a gun, and I can easily say that decision is based on neither paranoia nor narrow-mindedness. I carry a gun because I am choosing to be responsible for my own self-defense, and to not rely on others. Whether that means anything to you is for you to decide but making generalizations is offensive.

[Eraserhead]

What the pro-drug crowd seems to ignore, is that legalization would not make drugs like marijuana cheap- especially since it would be heavily taxed, and 'watered-down.'

Fine, we don't mind if it doesn't get cheaper, it the safety that is more important.

FWIW the marijuana in Amsterdam is very strong though, much more so than in the UK (and I imagine the US).

People don't go to jail in the US for simple possession. It takes a lot of convictions to be sent to prison for drugs, unless someone is trafficking.

Then why the 5 year mandatory minimum sentences?

Wouldn't a better question be is marijuana sold in coffee shops in Amsterdam cheaper than what's sold illegally on the streets of Amsterdam?

I don't believe you can buy it on the streets, what's the point?

[LethalWolfe]

I don't believe you can buy it on the streets, what's the point?
You can't buy legally off the street, but that doesn't stop people from trying to sell to tourists that don't know any better.


Lethal

[Eraserhead]

You can't buy legally off the street, but that doesn't stop people from trying to sell to tourists that don't know any better.

If its a tourist scam it'll be considerably more expensive ;).

[jb60606]

It's up to 54 (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/29/chicago.violence/index.html) now. I guess that means it's "slowing down".

Good news, though. The city bought new assault weapons for police and S.W.A.T to help "sway" the violence? :eek: :confused: :mad:

[leekohler]

It's up to 54 (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/29/chicago.violence/index.html) now. I guess that means it's "slowing down".

Good news, though. The city bought new assault weapons for police and S.W.A.T to help "sway" the violence? :eek: :confused: :mad:

And you're surprised? This is Mayor Daley we're talking about.

[jb60606]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/51/Mayor_Quimby.png/222px-Mayor_Quimby.png