Can We Make a Difference?

[Rebel]

• History is made by the dedicated few. Small groups of activists will always succeed against disorganized and apathetic majorities. It will not take millions to stop them, but it will take many more than are involved today. If everyone who is aware helps another to understand; if the newly informed also awaken others; and if many of them come together under an effective organization to challenge and expose abusive and corrupt government, the tide of battle will be turned in the American Citizens favor.
• There are more than enough good people in our nation to accomplish this goal. The struggle that consumes our attention is, at its core, a contest between right vs. wrong, good vs. evil, light vs. darkness, truth vs. falsehood, and citizens vs. government that has gone astray. Locating enough good people and energizing them with this fundamental assessment, under our combined organizational voice, will lead to victory for every American citizen forever more.
• We have truth on our side! Corrupt government must always work in the shadows and hide their goals in a blizzard of lies, deceit, and confusion. But it only takes a pound of truth to overcome a ton of falsehood. Our mission of bringing truth to light is much easier than constantly spreading the lies needed to deceive men.
• Hope for victory exists because our government works for us. The unfolding of unchangeable historical forces is not victimizing us. If some can change nations for corrupt and abusive purposes, we can change this nation for good and decent ends, and for the betterment of all the people. Instead of wringing our hands and lamenting that nothing can be done, we can shape history our way by demanding that principles guide this nation's actions and by exposing and eliminating the most foul and determined government employee’s our nation has ever experienced.
If we hope to succeed, everything we do must be based on morality and for the betterment of all American citizens. And yes, you can make a difference.

[jonapete2001]

i think your screen name says it all. I explains your post to perfection!

You remind me of someone wanting workers revolt. After the revolt do you want to form a national worker party. You do remember the apple 1984 comercial right? That is what this will lead to.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by jonapete2001
After the revolt do you want to form a national worker party.

This happend in the Cornwell coal mines in the UK, the whole union movemnet is what he is on about, a mild, very mild left wing govenment. Australia has a workers party it's called the ALP, (Australian Labour Party) I think the name explains it all.

There policies revolve around the state owning the Utillities (comm, water, power, gas, etc) so that they can provide equally to all of the public, instead of priviet enterprize only catering for the mass market (cities).

[jonapete2001]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
This happend in the Cornwell coal mines in the UK, the whole union movemnet is what he is on about, a mild, very mild left wing govenment. Australia has a workers party it's called the ALP, (Australian Labour Party) I think the name explains it all.

There policies revolve around the state owning the Utillities (comm, water, power, gas, etc) so that they can provide equally to all of the public, instead of priviet enterprize only catering for the mass market (cities).

I believe this is called socialism. Their a US labor party and a socialist party.

[SPG]

"Hey rebel, what are you rebelling against?"
"What do you got?"

[g5man]

Originally posted by Rebel
• History is made by the dedicated few. Small groups of activists will always succeed against disorganized and apathetic majorities. It will not take millions to stop them, but it will take many more than are involved today. If everyone who is aware helps another to understand; if the newly informed also awaken others; and if many of them come together under an effective organization to challenge and expose abusive and corrupt government, the tide of battle will be turned in the American Citizens favor.
• There are more than enough good people in our nation to accomplish this goal. The struggle that consumes our attention is, at its core, a contest between right vs. wrong, good vs. evil, light vs. darkness, truth vs. falsehood, and citizens vs. government that has gone astray. Locating enough good people and energizing them with this fundamental assessment, under our combined organizational voice, will lead to victory for every American citizen forever more.
• We have truth on our side! Corrupt government must always work in the shadows and hide their goals in a blizzard of lies, deceit, and confusion. But it only takes a pound of truth to overcome a ton of falsehood. Our mission of bringing truth to light is much easier than constantly spreading the lies needed to deceive men.
• Hope for victory exists because our government works for us. The unfolding of unchangeable historical forces is not victimizing us. If some can change nations for corrupt and abusive purposes, we can change this nation for good and decent ends, and for the betterment of all the people. Instead of wringing our hands and lamenting that nothing can be done, we can shape history our way by demanding that principles guide this nation's actions and by exposing and eliminating the most foul and determined government employee’s our nation has ever experienced.
If we hope to succeed, everything we do must be based on morality and for the betterment of all American citizens. And yes, you can make a difference.

I could not agree more. Excellent post.

Perhaps this is why Conservatives have started to make a greater impact upon the political landscape of this country. It is slow but it is building up with every election. By 2008 the American party system as we know it today will not be recognized.

The louder and more angry and frustrated the establishment becomes, the bigger the influence upon population to vote corrupt leaders out of office.

[SPG]

Originally posted by g5man
I could not agree more. Excellent post.

Perhaps this is why Conservatives have started to make a greater impact upon the political landscape of this country. It is slow but it is building up with every election. By 2008 the American party system as we know it today will not be recognized.

The louder and more angry and frustrated the establishment becomes, the bigger the influence upon population to vote corrupt leaders out of office.

That's what I liked about rebel's post. It could apply to whoever reads it. I read it thinking about how corrupt W and Cheney are and what it will take to toss them out of office.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by g5man
It is slow but it is building up with every election.

D'oh! Damn Loisianans had to go wreck that point you were making.

[Rebel]

I don't have anything. But I know of an organization that is growing in numbers, and whom I believe will revolutionize our government. They are not a political party because they feel that politics cannot be changed. To be a politician, is to be a bull-crapper extraordinaire. Bull-crappers are needed at the government level. What they intend to do is force funding reforms that ensure Government and Corporations work for the American people. I don't think I can give the organization name here without getting tagged for spamming. Which is not my intent. But the reform platform they are addressing is called U-ACT.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Rebel
But the reform platform they are addressing is called U-ACT.

(gasp)

the Ushamartin Academy of Communication Technology?!??!?!

i felt lucky.

[Rebel]

U-ACT Stands for Universal American Citizens Tax. It looked pretty good to me.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Rebel
U-ACT Stands for Universal American Citizens Tax. It looked pretty good to me.

i'd like to take a look at it. have you a link?

[mactacular]

Here is a link
u-act (http://www.ucanation.org/uact.htm)

This is nothing more than a flat tax. A very simalar idea was posed by Steve Forbes when he ran for president a few years back. I like the idea. This U-ACT system seems good on the surface but how does this help equality. On the Uact site it complains about the rich getting richer. If the rich now pay 35% taxes(UACT figure) and under UACT plan they would only pay 20% how does that help the poor. Also the "poor" tac brakets (10 and 15 percent tax) move up to 20 percent. If anything this would only help the rich get richer. They also claim that if you dont work you still pay taxes. ? If you have no income you pay no tax. Also thier tax system lists nothing about payroll tax, which pays for social security and medicare. This would limit governmetn projects and in the end hurt america.

This system sounds good on the surface, but in reality it is doomed to fail. It violates every notion of the fairness of a progressive income tax. Peole around here complaing about the rich getting richer now. If this ever passed every rich company and person in america would be so happy they woule crap in their pants. This would a great american give away to those who like to rob the poor already.,

[Rebel]

It helps equality by ensuring all Americans pay the same proportion of their income tax. Many of the rich hide their income. Even tho the tax in their bracket is 38%, in reality most pay well below 10% of their total income. Also, looking at the poor. Most are paying well below 20% of their income. But close to 25% of their income goes to other taxes. I.e. Home owners tax, sales tax, etc. Under U-ACT, only 20% of your income is taxed. Everything else goes away. So yes, the poor will keep more of their money.

Concerning unemployed not paying taxes, yes they do. They have to pay tax on their unemployment checks. They also are paying sales taxes on everything they buy and own. Under U-ACT, no taxes are paid unless they are working. This will ensure governments are working to keep Americans working in America. In addition, taxes can never be raised any other way. If Americans are earning annual raises and bonuses, so will our governments. This is win-win for everyone. The economy will thrive because if we Americans keep more of our money, we will spend it.

With the U-ACT system, the federal government will still get close to $1.8 Trillion tax dollars annually. If they are limited on the number of pet projects they can support, it will be all the better for the American people. Look at the PORK report that is on the site.

[pseudobrit]

Flat tax is regressive.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by jonapete2001
I believe this is called socialism. Their a US labor party and a socialist party.

Very good jonapete, but Neither will ever gain power in the states. You guys are stuk with a moderate Right wing (Democrats) and a far right wing (Republicans) for good.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by SPG
That's what I liked about rebel's post. It could apply to whoever reads it. I read it thinking about how corrupt W and Cheney are and what it will take to toss them out of office.

I find a bullet works wonders, (you forgot Rumsfelt)

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Flat tax is regressive.

agreed. Tax the wealthy highley (they have more spare cash) and tax the poor lightly (there poor so making them poorer is not going to help+a high tax for a poor man is still not alot of money in national terms)

[mactacular]

The U-ACT system will never come to be. It is the same as every other flat tax in history of U.S. The poor will get poorer and the rich will get richer. I dont care how much they say it will work, common sense says that it won't. Rebel says that rich actually only pay around 10% now and poor pay around 20%. Yeah right, come look at my pay check and i will tell you who pays more(percentage). Also this system would criple the government. all the nice little social programs would fall on their face. Some people are against the war ok. But this tax system would criple the military so bad that the US would not be a world power any more. Talk about job creation. Do you have any idea how many government jobs would be lost to this new flat tax program. The web site(linked in my post above) looks very nice and organized but when one looks at the info stuff does not add up. U-ACT organisers make many misleading statements.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by mactacular
Rebel says that rich actually only pay around 10% now and poor pay around 20%. Yeah right, come look at my pay check and i will tell you who pays more(percentage).

Total tax burden for all Americans settles in around 50% of income. I pay more than that even though I make less than $20,000 a year. Someone earning lots more pays a much lower percentage now thanks to GW.

If the Conservatives get their way and eliminate estate and capital gains taxes, someone who inherits millions of dollars will simply have to pay sales tax on it when/if he spends it. How is that fair to someone who busts his ass to make a middle-class living for himself?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
I find a bullet works wonders, (you forgot Rumsfelt)

Please refrain from political death threats or hinting at it. It could get arn in trouble. Threatening to kill the POTUS is a crime in the USA.

[mactacular]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Total tax burden for all Americans settles in around 50% of income. I pay more than that even though I make less than $20,000 a year. Someone earning lots more pays a much lower percentage now thanks to GW.

If the Conservatives get their way and eliminate estate and capital gains taxes, someone who inherits millions of dollars will simply have to pay sales tax on it when/if he spends it. How is that fair to someone who busts his ass to make a middle-class living for himself?

1. Money is never fair. Their are rich people. One has to get over this.
?are you saying that a person who pays 35% federal income tax ends up paying 50% total tax. And also a person who pays 25% fed income tax ends up paying roughly 50% total tax. Where does this extra 15% come from. (Is there a poor person tax?)

Estate Tax is wrong, tax was already paid on this money by the original earner. also those at the top do pay a lesser percentage than previously, but so does everyone else. It makes sense that when tax cuts are given out, the people that paid in the most would get the most back.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by mactacular
1. Money is never fair. Their are rich people. One has to get over this.
?are you saying that a person who pays 35% federal income tax ends up paying 50% total tax. And also a person who pays 25% fed income tax ends up paying roughly 50% total tax. Where does this extra 15% come from. (Is there a poor person tax?)

Estate Tax is wrong, tax was already paid on this money by the original earner. also those at the top do pay a lesser percentage than previously, but so does everyone else. It makes sense that when tax cuts are given out, the people that paid in the most would get the most back.

Once you subtract the cost of living from a rich person and a poor person, the poor person pays a higher percentage of his disposable income. Why? Because the bottom tax bracket kicks in well under the standard cost of living, taxing the poor for money they need to simply survive.

Without the estate tax, you end up with an aristocratic system. I cannot think of anything more unAmerican, and am flabbergasted by those who see it as an essential liberty.

[mactacular]

Cost of living, when has this entered into a tax discussion. Do you want everyone to have the same amount of money? these liberal ideas alway make me think of comunism

[pseudobrit]

WTF? Communism? Don't poor people have a right to earn untaxed income up to a level where they can afford to survive?

I don't want everyone to have the same amount of money, I want everyone to be able to freely earn enough money to survive. One cannot always do this with the current system.

[Rebel]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
WTF? Communism? Don't poor people have a right to earn untaxed income up to a level where they can afford to survive?

I don't want everyone to have the same amount of money, I want everyone to be able to freely earn enough money to survive. One cannot always do this with the current system.

Hi folks. Like I said in my previous post, I do not want to get tagged as spamming. I wanted to start a healthy discussion regarding if we can make a difference. I think we can.

I have looked at numerous sites fighting tax abuses, and quite frankly, it appears that all of them are trying to take donations so that they can stick more of my hard earned cash into their own pockets. The site I posted in the subject line says that they will return my donation once the goal is accomplished or not. Basically I have nothing to lose in this endevor, and maybe they can change things for the better.

If nothing else, if enough people back it, maybe it will open our governments eyes that the people they are supposed to work for are getting very angry. This same issue is the reason our country was formed in the first place. If nobody took an active role, we would not be the country we are today.

So yes, I joined their organization, and I joined their champion program. Maybe I can earn some cash along the way. Hopefully I wont have to pay 50% tax on it tho.

Take a look at the tax plan comparrisons that are currently making the rounds through washington. The only one that works for every American is the UACT plan.

[mactacular]

Originally posted by mactacular
Cost of living, when has this entered into a tax discussion. Do you want everyone to have the same amount of money? these liberal ideas alway make me think of comunism

Yes the poor are starving in the street. Now i get it, we need to help these people who can not make enough money on their own. Read my sig.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Please refrain from political death threats or hinting at it. It could get arn in trouble. Threatening to kill the POTUS is a crime in the USA.

Sorry I wont make such comments in the future. I live in Aus and the likleyhood of me visiting the US in the next four years is slim at best so you have little fear form me. I am sorry though.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Rebel
This same issue is the reason our country was formed in the first place. If nobody took an active role, we would not be the country we are today.

Your right you would be a better country like Canada, Australia, New Zealand (Hong Knog still sort of counts) as well as numours other brittish colonies.

We voted to govern ourselves in 1901, we even voted to stay part of the commonwealth in march 2000. The poms aren't that bad, except at Cricket.

We love our country so much that most of the Australin public doesn't know who the first Prime Minister was, or the words to the national anthum, let alone the second verse. Australia was a dumping ground for the worst of the wost. Things turned out alright I think.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by mactacular
Cost of living, when has this entered into a tax discussion. Do you want everyone to have the same amount of money? these liberal ideas alway make me think of comunism

Communism held the 'Free world' in the palm of its hand for nearly fifty years. The system only cracked when they lost the strong leaders like Stailn and Mao(China).
Athough they were terrible they got the Soviet machine working, and working for the good of the state. And that is why the USSR and China were so powerful in those early years.

Read "A communist Manifesto' by Karl Marx. Under Marx and Lennon's Ideals the system was amazing, but greed always pervails and hence the system was its own worst enemy, and hence the Berlin wall fell in 1989.

This is bound to raise a ster, and would have had me imprisoned during the 50's and 60's in the US but it is a valid point. I follow a mild Left wing approach to politics, by which I mean that the state owns most of the utillities (power, water, Communications) since asside from taxes these are a govenments only source of income.

Think if the govenment is making money off Electricty and your phone calls directly (not though taxing the phone or electricity company,) then to make a projected annual budget it can cut taxes since it has other means to auqire the funds. It also cuts out the middle man (and we all hate the middle man.)

This was the case in Australia until the Liberals got into power sold all off the countries assets to priviet enterprize and raised taxes to make up the difference. Australia is now the highest taxed nation in the world. Thanks Johnny;)

You don't care where the money from your power or phone bill goes as long as you get the service, why not help the govenment out so they can help you out, with better schols, Universities, Hospitals, etc...

[Rebel]

Originally posted by mactacular
The U-ACT system will never come to be. It is the same as every other flat tax in history of U.S. The poor will get poorer and the rich will get richer.

Your wrong. under U-ACT - The poor will keep more of their own money and the rich will pay more. And everyone pays the same proportion of their income. It can happen but only if American make it happen.

Also this system would criple the government. all the nice little social programs would fall on their face.

Will it criple the government? NO! Will all the nice little social programs go away? YES! But not all of them. Just the assinine ones that don't help society. Look at this PORK report.

Some people are against the war ok. But this tax system would criple the military so bad that the US would not be a world power any more. Talk about job creation. Do you have any idea how many government jobs would be lost to this new flat tax program.

It will not criple our military. And yes many brothers, cousins, friends and family that do not deserve high paying cush jobs will be out of work.

Today the military budget is 350 billion, so is the medicare, social service and education budget. This equals 1.6 trillion dollars. The UACT system will still bring in 1.8 trillion annually. There is 4 billion to play with. And take a look at what actually makes up the military budget. They have 18 billion designated as "other". No other explanation, just "other" for odds and ends.

Our military budget is $350 billion plus annually and growing. Looking at the details, items look fairly well laid-out: $100 billion for personnel, $117 billion for operations and maintenance, $73 billion for procurement, $62 billion for RDT&E, $16.5 billion for atomic energy, $3 billion for management funds (whatever this is), and $18 BILLION for OTHER. In most companies, a 5 percent other category is somewhat acceptable to cover odds and ends that you may have missed in your planning efforts. However, $18 BILLION dollars should have a little more explanation than just OTHER. Keep in mind that this is just looking at the military budget. How many other department budgets have an “OTHER” category with BILLIONS of dollars allocated? How many BILLIONS of dollars are being wasted because as in most companies, if you do not use it, you lose it. Our government employees owe Americans more fiscal control than what we are seeing in the budgets.

The web site(linked in my post above) looks very nice and organized but when one looks at the info stuff does not add up. U-ACT organisers make many misleading statements. http://www.ucanation.org/uact.htm [COLOR=red]http://www.ucanation.org/uact.htm PORK (http://www.ucanation.org/pork%20report.htm) U-ACT (http://www.ucanation.org/uact.htm)

[Rebel]

There are some who want to "do- away" with income tax and just collect sales taxes – Your thoughts?

"Let me tell you why this is a bad decision. First, there are basic necessities in life that people need in order to survive; food, water, heat, housing, clothing. These necessities have been constant throughout humankind’s trek through life. In our modern age we have accumulated new necessities; automobiles, air conditioning, refrigeration, toiletry, communications, schooling, prescriptions. If we did away with income tax and instead institute a sales tax system, the following necessities would continue to be taxed at higher and higher rates to keep feeding government abuse of funds; gasoline, electricity, natural gas, water, personal hygiene (soap, toothpaste, toilet paper), telephones (land & mobile) etc. Moreover, keep this in mind; these are American life necessities, even if you have no job income, you would still have to pay these taxes. This fact causes our government employees to be less aggressive in ensuring Americans are working in America . We are already seeing this as millions of Americans are being laid-off while corporations move their business to other countries.

Secondly, now start adding other goods that although they are not termed as life necessities, they are luxuries to hard working Americans; tobacco, alcohol, fast food, potato chips, popcorn, soda, ketchup, mayonnaise, mustard, beer, gum, ice-cream, etc.. All these "goods" would require your hard-earned tax dollars whether you have a job or not. And because they are deemed as bad for you, this will give governments an excuse to overly tax them. In addition, unemployment benefits are also taxed. This system will not eliminate political abuse and waste."

"Now let’s look at the effects of the Universal American Citizen Tax.TM 20% of your income is taxed. All other taxes go away.

Now our government(s) will work very hard to ensure every American is working in America . They will ensure that the Citizens of this great nation are taken care of first and foremost. Under the U-ACT TM proposal, the 16 million Americans currently unemployed would be costing our government(s) approx. 75 billion dollars a year in tax dollars. You had better believe that our political employee’s would be working very hard with corporations to keep Americans working in America .

Also, if Americans are thriving in their business life with annual raises and bonuses, so will our government(s), because as we receive them so will they. This is a win-win for this entire nation. With Americans keeping more of their own money, business will thrive because we will spend more money.

Our political employee’s will need to make some serious government reforms and stop wasting the money they receive, plus they will have to ensure the contracts they give to private sector businesses are fair for the nation. No more of these no-bid deals to friends and family.

Lastly, our political employee’s will need to restructure our political offices. Do we really need multiple levels of Secretaries, Directors, Governors, and Senator Aides etc.? In addition, with our technology revolution, do we need all of our political offices? Every corporation in this country and throughout the world has streamlined their operations to ensure cost effective business objectives without jeopardizing quality operations. Our government will have to do the same. For example, 50% of our non-capital military budget goes to non-military personnel. Do we really need civilians within our military operations?, and if so, 50%?

Our political employee’s will not make these changes now because there are too many political favors, friends and family, and pet projects that in turn feed their Campaign election funds. Under the U-ACT TM proposal, they will not have a choice. It is time for our employees to clean house. The U-ACT TM tax system will also eliminate taxation as a political issue. No more tax lies during campaign speeches (i.e. "read my lips"). Under U-ACT,TM taxation will never again be a political issue. Now our elected employee's will be able to concentrate on real human needs without trying to "tax-lie" for votes."

I thought this was a very good explanation of what the UACT tax system is all about.

[jonapete2001]

How would U-ACT, if implemented, not be a political issue. After is is passed(probably never), politicians would still call for tax cuts and and what not. Also, the government can try to get people jobs, but in reality they already do. also their is not much a government can really do to affect economy and job market. They can have some affect, but not as much as some think. As a conservative I would tend to like the idea of a fare tax(same percentage across board) but I think that, as someone posted above, it would in actuality lead to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. think about it, the rich pay about 50% in tax(state, fed, local, sales). Now they would only have to pay 20% and also the poor might pay less tax but the poorest of the poor, would lose many valuable government services. The government would be forced to cut so many programs(not just the pork programs that U-ACT web page talks about).

This program seems to idealistic and under thought out to actually be feasable.

[Rebel]

jonapete2001

If U-ACT gets backing and approval, the only way government will get taxes is through income earned only. They cannot raise them, lower them, ask for more, overly tax the bad stuff, give breaks to the rich folks, etc. U-ACT will revolutionize the 16th amendment. The only way government gets more money is if Americans are making more money every year. For instance, Congress (who already earns $158,000/yr) has voted themselves a 4% increase every year for the next 4 years. I have not seen a 4% increase in my paycheck for the last 5 years. And I make nowhere near $150k.

The government cannot get people jobs, but they sure impact Americans with trade policies. NAFTA was a mistake. Not in what they were trying to accomplish, but in how it was crafted. Corporations had a large impact on the NAFTA bill because it helped open the world to them, but America is still unfairly closed to the same benefits. If our government implements policies that are fair for the citizenship, and not for who feeds their campaign funds, it will result in more American jobs. And if Americans keep more of their earned money, we will spend it, which will spark a economic surge that this country has not seen in many-many years.

Lastly, the rich hide much of their money. They pay less in taxes than the poor. And I do not begrudge the rich because they have money. These are the people that create jobs for all the rest of us. Taking 20% of their income would actually force them to pay their share. U-ACT is also geared to keep more of your income earnings in the communities where the people live. It is the townships, counties, and states that should be taking care of their citizens – not so much the federal government. Locally we can control our politicians easier than at the national level. U-ACT will force the federal government to manage the states, who in tern should manage the people of their state.

I don’t know if U-ACT is the answer. But I do know that if we Americans do not stand-up and shout, we will continue to fall into economic slavery. This system is the fairest of them all.

[jonapete2001]

Ok, if you say so. I would actually love for my self personally to pay only 20% instead of some other astronomical figure. I still dont think it would pass or work if it did. ALso the rate could change. All they would have to do would pass a new law just like they do now. They would never amend the constitution to fix income tax.

[tristan]

Hey, news flash, there are a *lot* more taxes built into the system.

Income Tax
Social Security tax/Self-employment
Property Tax
Sales Tax
Taxes on gas, smokes, alcohol
Luxury tax (on expensive cars)
Capital gains tax
Telephone/Cable taxes
Tourism taxes
Estate tax
Driver's license fees/License plates
User fees (toll roads, stamps, subway, etc)

This is where people get that 50% tax rate figure you always hear about. But there are a lot of deductions too, and most benefits aren't taxed, so it's probably more like 35-40% for your average middle class family.

Also, looking at the list above, who pays more taxes? The rich or the poor? The rich of course, but it's not as progressive as you think. The rich guy will pay a higher percentage of his earnings in income tax, estate tax, and capital gains, but a lower percentage in sales tax and sin taxes. (Because rich people consume less as a percentage of their income.)

Also, people complain that rich people have more opportunities to avoid income tax (becuase they have more financial flexibility)- well, that's true, but some taxes you really can't avoid like property tax on that mansion, or sales tax on that SL500, thus the income gets captured at least somewhat.

So anyway, life is more complex than you think :-) - *and* the system does actually balance itself out in some ways.

[Rebel]

Originally posted by tristan
Hey, news flash, there are a *lot* more taxes built into the system.

Income Tax
Social Security tax/Self-employment
Property Tax
Sales Tax
Taxes on gas, smokes, alcohol
Luxury tax (on expensive cars)
Capital gains tax
Telephone/Cable taxes
Tourism taxes
Estate tax
Driver's license fees/License plates
User fees (toll roads, stamps, subway, etc)

This is where people get that 50% tax rate figure you always hear about. But there are a lot of deductions too, and most benefits aren't taxed, so it's probably more like 35-40% for your average middle class family.

Also, looking at the list above, who pays more taxes? The rich or the poor? The rich of course, but it's not as progressive as you think. The rich guy will pay a higher percentage of his earnings in income tax, estate tax, and capital gains, but a lower percentage in sales tax and sin taxes. (Because rich people consume less as a percentage of their income.)

Also, people complain that rich people have more opportunities to avoid income tax (becuase they have more financial flexibility)- well, that's true, but some taxes you really can't avoid like property tax on that mansion, or sales tax on that SL500, thus the income gets captured at least somewhat.

So anyway, life is more complex than you think :-) - *and* the system does actually balance itself out in some ways.

I consider myself very middle class and calculating all my taxation dollars minus deductions etc. I average paying about 43% total tax on my income. It also depends on what you define as rich. The calculations based on the above assume financial worth in the millions as rich. These are the folks that can hide their money, and pay very little taxation because they own numerous properties and can take hugh deductions. These are the people that our current tax system favors because these are the people that can donate large sums of money to politicians.

The rest of us peasants carry the burdon. As for myself, I earn a six figure salary, have a nice home and small children, but my financial future is bleak. College tuition is going thru the roof, inflation continues, every township across the country is raising taxes because thay cannot financially manage the funds they receive, corruption is rampant throughout every level of our government institutions, and I get extremely frustrated with the American sheeple who whistle through life thinking it's all okay. My gosh folks, we became a country becasue we were severely over taxed by the English manarchy, and treated like peasants. What do you think is happening today? Have we gone blind? or have we given up as a society as my original post asks?

I for one have not given up. I will fight these abuses with every last breath I posess. I will not sit back and watch 43% of my hard earned cash go to corupt assholes who waste it on assinine causes. One person cannot make a difference, but many people combined thru one organization, financially backed by American people, can.

I will spread the message to every corner of this great country, to every American who I can reach, to every man woman and child who gives a damn. Our generation can still survive these abuses and live fullfilling lives, but future generations will suffer mightily under this corruptive government rule. If you cannot see this, if you cannot empathize with our future off-spring, then we have already failed as a society. I for one will do what I can to not let this happen, and I hope whoever reads this will join me in this monumental fight. I cannot do this alone.

[pseudobrit]

At 43% you should consider yourself lucky.

I figured out the tax burden on my disposable income a few months back in these forums and found it to be over 60%

Subtract the cost of living (about $13-15k if you're single; current rates are available if you search online) from your total income. Then figure how much income tax you pay. Then state and local tax. Then take what's left and subtract the amount of sales tax levied on that total (if you spend it all, as most poor people must).

If you're poor, you're looking at over half your income gone. And that's not counting tariffs, sin tax and other "invisible" taxes (it's not counting any benefit you may get from subsidies, but I imagine such positives are trivial).

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Rebel
I earn a six figure salary, have a nice home and small children, but my financial future is bleak. College tuition is going thru the roof, inflation continues, every township across the country is raising taxes because thay cannot financially manage the funds they receive, corruption is rampant throughout every level of our government institutions

what? did you blow your $600 refund already?!?!

[pseudobrit]

My $300 helped with the car payment that month.

[Rebel]

My $800 went toward bills. And I'm still nowhere near out of debt. Hey! if you guys want to help me out, join this orghanization and use Rebel as your referal in the sign-up form. The $50k they are offering will get me out of debt.

[Rebel]

Are We Economic Slaves to our governments?

No one wants to be a slave. It is easy to demonstrate that a continuation of present U.S. tax policies, at all levels, will in the not-too-distant future, lead all but the affluent, and corrupt ones themselves into political and economic slavery. Our government leader’s goal should be to promote freedom and prosperity for all; instead, they are promoting economic slavery with over-burdensome taxation for their own benefit.

Taxation or better defined as the abusive taxation of American citizens for political self-gain will be the downfall of our economics, employment gratification and our society.

Americans need to understand and build effective resistance to the tax abuses and corruption rampant through our government ranks. If we citizens do not do it, nobody else will. We will just have ourselves to blame.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Rebel
Are We Economic Slaves to our governments?

No one wants to be a slave. It is easy to demonstrate that a continuation of present U.S. tax policies, at all levels, will in the not-too-distant future, lead all but the affluent, and corrupt ones themselves into political and economic slavery.

You don't seem to want an "affluent" uberclass, but you support the repeal of the estate tax, which is designed to allow the creation of an aristocracy of the super-rich. That seems odd to me.

[Rebel]

Originally posted by mactastic
You don't seem to want an "affluent" uberclass, but you support the repeal of the estate tax, which is designed to allow the creation of an aristocracy of the super-rich. That seems odd to me.

All I am saying is, everyone who earns an income, whether it is a little or a lot, deserves to keep the majority of that money. Supporting the government thru taxation is a must, but not at the current cost, and with their total disregard for budget frugality.

As far as the super-rich, we already have this in our society. The super rich are already avoiding estate taxation thru numerous loop holes that the majority of Americans cannot access. There was a survey done not too long ago that asked citizens if they thought they were in the 1% of top income earners in the country. 19% said YES.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Rebel
Are We Economic Slaves to our governments?
We will just have ourselves to blame.

How to put this nicely; YES. The house always wins.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Rebel
All I am saying is, everyone who earns an income, whether it is a little or a lot, deserves to keep the majority of that money. Supporting the government thru taxation is a must, but not at the current cost, and with their total disregard for budget frugality.

Ok, but lets fix the government waste problem first, then see how low we can get tax rates!

As far as the super-rich, we already have this in our society. The super rich are already avoiding estate taxation thru numerous loop holes that the majority of Americans cannot access. There was a survey done not too long ago that asked citizens if they thought they were in the 1% of top income earners in the country. 19% said YES.

Yes we already have the super-rich in this country. Lets make sure the super-rich are the great businesspeople, inventors, entertainers etc. of our country and not their children. Lets make it easier to become rich, and harder (but not impossible) to become super-rich.

[Rebel]

Originally posted by mactastic
Ok, but lets fix the government waste problem first, then see how low we can get tax rates!



Yes we already have the super-rich in this country. Lets make sure the super-rich are the great businesspeople, inventors, entertainers etc. of our country and not their children. Lets make it easier to become rich, and harder (but not impossible) to become super-rich.

You cannot fix government waste without force. And the only way to force it, is to limit the funds that they can recieve. There are plenty of new politicians that get elected and enter office with expectations that they can make a difference. What they find instead is a system geared to never change. They eventually get sucked-into the norm and become as corrupt as the people they replaced.

Politicians cannot and will not change the abuse. Only us peasants can do it - thru an uprising. Petitions do not work. Bitching and moaning does not work. Protests do not work. The only way it will work is thru an organization (http://www.ucanation.org) that has the financial backing of many-many peasants. Citizens need to play the political game to win.

And if people keep more of the money they earn, they will have more financial opportunity to become rich. It takes money to make money.

[Rebel]

The Battle Over Beer

There is a new move on in Washington to tax your beer. It comes in the form of a report, authored by a panel of the National Academy of Sciences, which calls for new action to reduce underage drinking. Higher taxes on beer, the report argues, would both reduce consumption by teenagers and provide funds for new initiatives to curtail alcohol consumption. The report is sure to spur a massive battle here between two groups with enormous influence. On one side is the beer and wine industry, which has invested heavily to keep up its influence in Washington . The National Beer Wholesalers Association, for instance, made $2.6 million in campaign contributions during the last congressional election, while Anheuser-Busch gave $2.3 million. However, on the other side of the battle is another heavyweight, The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. It is pouring tens of millions into groups like the Center on Alcohol Marketing to Youth and the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse. Who will win this power and money battle? One thing is for sure, the American citizen won’t.

40 Something Years Later

The following were some comments made in the year 1957:
"Thank goodness I won't live to see the day when the Government takes half our income in taxes. I sometimes wonder if we are electing the best people to Congress."

"It's too bad things are so tough nowadays. I see where a few married women are having to work to make ends meet."

"It won't be long before young couples are going to have to hire someone to watch their kids so they can both work."

"I'm just afraid the Volkswagen car is going to open the door to a whole lot of foreign business."

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Rebel
You cannot fix government waste without force.

Are you advocating an armed revolution against the US government?

[Rebel]

Originally posted by mactastic
Are you advocating an armed revolution against the US government?

Not in today's day and age. Instead I advocate a financial battle. The financial might of the American people consolidated through an effective organization. The battle field will be conference rooms and offices of government institutions. This battle can only be faught the way our constitution allows - through lobbying and supporting politicians that believe in the same systems we believe, or who support the same notions. Everything in life is negotiable.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Rebel
This battle can only be faught the way our constitution allows - through lobbying and supporting politicians that believe in the same systems we believe, or who support the same notions.

That sounds an awful lot like the status quo...

[Rebel]

Originally posted by mactastic
That sounds an awful lot like the status quo...

Not if we can get a nation of Americans behind us. Not only will we have fianancial ability, we would also have potential voting power. These two combinations can make the changes that need to be made for America.

[Rebel]

Originally posted by Rebel
Not if we can get a nation of Americans behind us. Not only will we have fianancial ability, we would also have potential voting power. These two combinations can make the changes that need to be made for America.

Corruption
''Money is the grease that makes the American political machine work.''

Unfortunately, our political system is dependent upon campaign contributions from special interests whose main purpose is to buy political influence. In our hopelessly corrupt campaign funding system, where our cash-starved federal and state governments can't adequately fund such high priorities as education, health care and adequate pharmaceutical drug coverage. Where enlisted men and women in Iraq are supplied with useless flak jackets from the Vietnam era, and where our wounded troops from the Iraq war are housed in crude barracks for weeks waiting to see a doctor to have their war wounds treated, our economy can spend millions of dollars on expensive political campaigns for TV advertising!

How can anybody with a clear conscience defend this hopelessly unjust system?

[Rebel]

Originally posted by Rebel
Corruption
''Money is the grease that makes the American political machine work.''

Unfortunately, our political system is dependent upon campaign contributions from special interests whose main purpose is to buy political influence. In our hopelessly corrupt campaign funding system, where our cash-starved federal and state governments can't adequately fund such high priorities as education, health care and adequate pharmaceutical drug coverage. Where enlisted men and women in Iraq are supplied with useless flak jackets from the Vietnam era, and where our wounded troops from the Iraq war are housed in crude barracks for weeks waiting to see a doctor to have their war wounds treated, our economy can spend millions of dollars on expensive political campaigns for TV advertising!

How can anybody with a clear conscience defend this hopelessly unjust system?

Many conservative economists will argue that eliminating taxes on savings and investment is a good way to goose the economy, by creating more investment. But it also means that wealthy people who don’t work will pay NO taxes, while middle class people who do will pay LOTS. Our government wants a world where the only people who have to pay taxes are the ones who do the work. This is the most radical and dangerous economic theory since socialism.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Rebel
Many conservative economists will argue that eliminating taxes on savings and investment is a good way to goose the economy, by creating more investment. But it also means that wealthy people who don’t work will pay NO taxes, while middle class people who do will pay LOTS. Our government wants a world where the only people who have to pay taxes are the ones who do the work. This is the most radical and dangerous economic theory since socialism.

And yet you have come out against the estate tax. I don't get it. If you are afraid of a society in which only the workers are taxed, why would you want to exempt huge fortunes being passed from generation to generation? That's income gotten for doing nothing, right?

[Rebel]

Originally posted by mactastic
And yet you have come out against the estate tax. I don't get it. If you are afraid of a society in which only the workers are taxed, why would you want to exempt huge fortunes being passed from generation to generation? That's income gotten for doing nothing, right?

A mans wealth in life has already been taxed numerous times, I have no issue with the rich leaving huge fortunes for their children. They earned it, and their children should benefit. There are more middle class people in this country who raise a modest estate. More so than the rich. All Americans should have the right to leave their children all that they earned in life, without government taking a piece in death. Sooner or later the children will spend the wealth, which will help the economy, or they will earn additional revenue with this wealth, which under an income tax only system - would be taxable.