Radeon HD 3870 for Mac coming end of May

[barefeats]

I have received confirmation from a reliable source that ATI will definitely offer a retail version of the Radeon HD 3870 with 512MB DDR4 that will boot OS X Leopard on both current and legacy Mac Pros. It will be "on the shelves" by the end of May.

It will, of course, boot Windows XP or Vista in your Boot Camp partition. And, like the 2600, I expect it to support CrossFire mode under Windows if you have two installed and jumpered.

My source also confirmed that the Radeon 2600 (and 3870) drivers in Leopard 10.5.3 will provide surprising performance enhancements for 3D gamers. And just in case 10.5.3 gets delayed, they will ship the enhanced drivers with the card.

[Firefly2002]

That's good. I'll bet they run the hardware-accelerated non-3D apps faster than the other ATI cards too, further separating it from the 8800 GT in this regard.

[big dainjerus]

So all my concerns regarding which card to buy with my upcoming mac pro purchase are out the window now? Does this mean I should just get the stock and wait for this bad boy to come out and get it instead of getting the 8800 and waiting [hoping] for the 8800 to get an "upgrade"?

[Amethyst]

OMGGGGGG !! the great news for me...

My 8x2.8 MP wiil get this card ASAP.

[tivoli2]

Would one be able to run this card in tandem with an 8800GT, at all?

[faumble]

Which is better the GF 8800 or HD 3870?

[Bubba Satori]

Apple needs to offer the FireGL cards. The 7600 is a great card at a very reasonable price.

[yeroen]

Will this be the X2 version? And if not, will MR forum members declare it an outrage?

[Cindori]

From a pure performance standpoint, NVIDIA's card is the victor. For the more price-conscious, ATI's HD3870 is an excellent deal.
If it is the single card we are talking about and not the double one. But since you claim it is a 512MB card, it must be the single one.

However, IF it does support Crossfire, you can get two of these and it will smoke the 8800GT. But that is unconfirmed, and it wont work in pre 08 Macs.


http://www.techspot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/crysisbench.png

http://8000.hillbillyhardware.com:8000/Reviews/hd3870vs8800gt/3dmark.gif

http://8000.hillbillyhardware.com:8000/Reviews/hd3870vs8800gt/wic2.gif

http://images.tomshardware.com/2007/11/15/amd_radeon_hd_3800/image007.png

I think you get it :)

[jons]

I wonder what the performance will be like with Core Apps?

[toke lahti]

Hope they offer 1GB version...

Pretty unsure situation when high-end iMac now has 8800... will they update FCS2 support for that very soon... and if they do, which card is then better?

[MacsRgr8]

Okay. so in gaming nearly, but not quite as good as the GeForce 8800 GT.

But two good things to conclude here:

- ATi delivers another retail card for the Mac! Gives us extra options!
- The Radeon HD 3870 will probably be the best "Mac OS X" card for your Mac Pro. A gr8 deal, and presumably a far better performance than the GeForce 8800 in the Pro apps.... unless Apple / nVidia does something drastic about the drivers for the GeForce card.

[Tallest Skil]

I have received confirmation from a reliable source that ATI will definitely offer a retail version of the Radeon HD 3870 with 512MB DDR4 that will boot OS X Leopard on both current and legacy Mac Pros. It will be "on the shelves" by the end of May.

It will, of course, boot Windows XP or Vista in your Boot Camp partition. And, like the 2600, I expect it to support CrossFire mode under Windows if you have two installed and jumpered.

My source also confirmed that the Radeon 2600 (and 3870) drivers in Leopard 10.5.3 will provide surprising performance enhancements for 3D gamers. And just in case 10.5.3 gets delayed, they will ship the enhanced drivers with the card.

I love how long this thread has gone blindly on about possible features without someone asking for proof. History states that Apple leaves the professional Mac line to die for want of graphics until the next processor update. What should make me believe that they're actually doing this?

[Rankrotten]

I have the 3870x2 installed in my Mac Pro for Windows gaming alongside a failing x1900XT for Mac OS X

Questions, questions:

1. Currently the 3870x2 is not recognised in 10.5.2
2. Is this a stock ATI card or specifically engineered for Apple?
3. Can the Apple/ATI 3870 ROM be copied and flashed twice onto the x2?
4. Will the 10.5.3 drivers also support the x2 version?
5. Happy days..:D

[Pressure]

From a pure performance standpoint, NVIDIA's card is the victor. For the more price-conscious, ATI's HD3870 is an excellent deal.
If it is the single card we are talking about and not the double one. But since you claim it is a 512MB card, it must be the single one.

However, IF it does support Crossfire, you can get two of these and it will smoke the 8800GT. But that is unconfirmed, and it wont work in pre 08 Macs.

I think you get it :)

Stealing bandwidth is just rude!

People will get the Radeon HD 3870 for professional applications where the Radeon X1900XT still is king.

Even the Radeon HD 2600 holds it own agains the Geforce 8800 GT in professional applications.

If this rumor is true it will make Motion cry with joy :D

EDIT:

It's a shame though as the R700 and RV700 is coming a month later, in june. Hopefully they make an EFI version :D

[ildondeigiocchi]

I hope they decide to put a 3870X2 or give the 9800 series a try. How many would love a 9800 GX2 in their sexy mac pros. Now that's one pwerful setup. Apple's most powerful desktop powered by the world's most powerful graphics card. Gee i'm starting too like that thought. :):):):apple:

[ildondeigiocchi]

What do you think they will charge for one 3870? 170 $ or more?

[Roy]

I love how long this thread has gone blindly on about possible features without someone asking for proof. History states that Apple leaves the professional Mac line to die for want of graphics until the next processor update. What should make me believe that they're actually doing this?


Agree. Totally un-Apple like. Wishful thinking with no Apple history (as you pointed out) to offer multiple "options" for buyers. Too confusing. Too PC like.

[ildondeigiocchi]

Actually I have a strong feeling that Apple wants to start selling video cards to people because when they offer high end ones people get real interested.

[Roy]

Actually I have a strong feeling that Apple wants to start selling video cards to people because when they offer high end ones people get real interested.

And what can you point to that supports your strong feelings that "Apple wants to start selling video cards......."?

[CWallace]

So I take it this will be an OEM card sold by ATI?

I wonder if Apple only wanted to offer the 3750 and 34x0 as BTO options (based on the leaked data in the 10.5.3 seeds) and thus ATI has decided to enter the market themselves?

[ildondeigiocchi]

And what can you point to that supports your strong feelings that "Apple wants to start selling video cards......."?

They've never done it before and Apple is all about surprises. Heck when's the last time we thought they would stick a high end video card like 8800GS in the iMac? Apple is on a mission to make the dreams of its customers come true.

[Tallest Skil]

Apple is on a mission to make the dreams of its customers come true.

So... xMac at WWDC, then, you think?

No, Apple is on a mission to make His Jobsness' vision for computing come true. Whether or not that involves a mid-range gaming Mac has already been seen.

[Pressure]

So... xMac at WWDC, then, you think?

No, Apple is on a mission to make His Jobsness' vision for computing come true. Whether or not that involves a mid-range gaming Mac has already been seen.

I thought the xMac was something people not currently owning an Apple computer wanted. I see many contend Apple owners out there currently.

[aLoC]

If the 8800GT is only $270 there doesn't seem much call for a cheaper option. Good luck to them anyway.

[deathshrub]

It's really nice that Apple is making more video cards available to consumers. More choice is (almost) always a good thing, and in this case it definitely is.

[kinless]

Now this is what I've been waiting for...

It does seem out-of-place as an Apple machine update, but if it is true, then I'll be first in line for one of these bad boys. I've been an ATI fan for too long so this will be a welcome purchase to handle my graphic/video needs.

[compuguy1088]

Which is better the GF 8800 or HD 3870?

Geforce 8800GT is the better card...

[Grimace]

Jeez, if I hear one more comment about Crysis....

It's as if every possible benchmark out there needs to be Crysis tested before we know if it is worth buying.

[big dainjerus]

Geforce 8800GT is the better card...

Why is the 8800 card considered better when the 2600 performs better on the pro apps? Is it just better for games? What about everything else besides games?

[barefeats]

I can assure you this is more than a rumor. It's going to happen. It is not an OEM card. Apple may sell it on their website but it will not be a CTO option. It's an ATI Retail card.

In our tests with the Radeon 2600 and X1900 showed both of them running Motion and iMaginator (both Core Image intensive) faster than the GeForce 8800. This deficiency by the 8800 includes Aperture and Color.

The Radeon 3870 is going to be even stronger running Pro Apps.

The 8800 is a great gaming card but NOT impressive running Apple Pro apps that rely on Core image. The Radeon 3870 may not run games as quite as fast as the 8800 but it's a better "balanced" card if you are using it for both games and "real work."

[mdntcallr]

They've never done it before and Apple is all about surprises. Heck when's the last time we thought they would stick a high end video card like 8800GS in the iMac? Apple is on a mission to make the dreams of its customers come true.

i genuinely hope apple starts offering more graphics cards for macs. would be a step in the right direction.

really wished they offer the mythical mid-range Mac minitower. which could be upgraded nicely over a 2-3 year period. and then get another one.

it would also be more important to have HDCP compliant video cards, so mac's could also be used with hd content, from blu-ray discs to hd vod via itunes. to be like the apple tv

[Animalk]

I applaud ATI for recognizing the market for such a product and for going ahead and pushing such a product out there.

[mdriftmeyer]

Crysis? Wow! A Mac Pro graphics options being measured by Crysis?

I want to know how it does CAD/CAM, Real-time Kinematics, Fatigue, Fracture Analysis, Heat Transfer, but oh nevermind!

This bad boy kicks on Crysis!!

[Jethryn Freyman]

At first I thought it was nothing, but I may as well add to the speculation:

I saw the Radeon 3870 as an option on the Mac Pro on the Apple Australia store on the day that the new Mac Pro was introduced. The tooltips for it weren't complete, however, and merely said that it had "XXX" pixel shaders or whatever, and its performance was "XXX" compared to that of the Geforce 8800 GT.

The next day the message was gone.

[Cindori]

I have the 3870x2 installed in my Mac Pro for Windows gaming alongside a failing x1900XT for Mac OS X

Questions, questions:

1. Currently the 3870x2 is not recognised in 10.5.2
2. Is this a stock ATI card or specifically engineered for Apple?
3. Can the Apple/ATI 3870 ROM be copied and flashed twice onto the x2?
4. Will the 10.5.3 drivers also support the x2 version?
5. Happy days..:D


1. Of course it isnt.
2. Every card must be specifically enginnered because only Apple use EFI
3. Of course not. It is different hardware.
4. Probably no. You won't get anywhere without EFI anyway.

[macz1]

I think the ATI is a bit more power efficient than the 8800. It's manufactured in 55nm process and has better power saving features in idle mode. If you don't game all the time, peak power consumption should not be very important.
A cool and balanced card. I think I will get one... (if it's true)

[iPoodOverZune]

Which is better the GF 8800 or HD 3870?

Geforce 8800GT is the better card...

Depends actually as according to barefeats (see link below; o well this thread is started by barefeats). For gaming, 8800GT wins (openGL stufff). For pro apps, HD3870 would presumably be better since X1900XT and HD2600XT already are.

check this out:
http://barefeats.com/harper10.html (ATI cards win in pro apps)
http://barefeats.com/harper8.html (8800GT wins in gaming)

[Cindori]

Crysis? Wow! A Mac Pro graphics options being measured by Crysis?

I want to know how it does CAD/CAM, Real-time Kinematics, Fatigue, Fracture Analysis, Heat Transfer, but oh nevermind!

This bad boy kicks on Crysis!!


Kinda hard to find because almost no pro-app users test with a 8800GTvs3870. You'll just have to wait for Barefeats results. You are free to check out the specs of the both cards yourself.

[iPoodOverZune]

I can assure you this is more than a rumor. It's going to happen. It is not an OEM card. Apple may sell it on their website but it will not be a CTO option. It's an ATI Retail card.

In our tests with the Radeon 2600 and X1900 showed both of them running Motion and iMaginator (both Core Image intensive) faster than the GeForce 8800. This deficiency by the 8800 includes Aperture and Color.

The Radeon 3870 is going to be even stronger running Pro Apps.

The 8800 is a great gaming card but NOT impressive running Apple Pro apps that rely on Core image. The Radeon 3870 may not run games as quite as fast as the 8800 but it's a better "balanced" card if you are using it for both games and "real work."

Other than pro apps and gaming, how is the general performance of the system (I mean GUI responsiveness, general apps, etc) with X1900XT and 2600XT vis-a-vis 8800GT. I guess I am just trying to ballpark 8800GT vs 3870 in terms of general system usage most of the time and medium-usage with iMovie, FCE, photoshop and other vector graphics apps. Also scientific apps that does 3D protein modeling softwares, etc. (I don't have Mac Pro yet :( ). Any ideas?

[Analog Kid]

I know I could go and look it up, but does someone want to offer a primer on what "X2" and "CrossFire" mean?

[ikir]

I will go for 8800GT but this ATI is well balanced and stunning for PRO apps.

[mmulin]

I can assure you this is more than a rumor. It's going to happen. It is not an OEM card. Apple may sell it on their website but it will not be a CTO option. It's an ATI Retail card.

In our tests with the Radeon 2600 and X1900 showed both of them running Motion and iMaginator (both Core Image intensive) faster than the GeForce 8800. This deficiency by the 8800 includes Aperture and Color.

The Radeon 3870 is going to be even stronger running Pro Apps.

The 8800 is a great gaming card but NOT impressive running Apple Pro apps that rely on Core image. The Radeon 3870 may not run games as quite as fast as the 8800 but it's a better "balanced" card if you are using it for both games and "real work."

..what i would be interested in, is, whether the nvidia pro-app-deficiency is purely driver related or hardwired?

[mmulin]

I know I could go and look it up, but does someone want to offer a primer on what "X2" and "CrossFire" mean?

running two graphic cards combined (not driving separate displays). similar to have having two CPU/CPU-cores. in case of GPU you get the combined memory and bandwidth.

[mmulin]

I have the 3870x2 installed in my Mac Pro for Windows gaming alongside a failing x1900XT for Mac OS X

Questions, questions:

1. Currently the 3870x2 is not recognised in 10.5.2
2. Is this a stock ATI card or specifically engineered for Apple?
3. Can the Apple/ATI 3870 ROM be copied and flashed twice onto the x2?
4. Will the 10.5.3 drivers also support the x2 version?
5. Happy days..:D

Which MacPro do you have? Bear in mind, at least to my knowledge, that the the pre-08 MacPro's motherboard does not support X2, even under windows.

[Rankrotten]

Which MacPro do you have? Bear in mind, at least to my knowledge, that the the pre-08 MacPro's motherboard does not support X2, even under windows.

It's a 2006 Mac Pro 1,1

The 3870X2 works like a champ with windows and is also detected as a 512MB "Radeon 3800" in Mac OS X after some plist editing in the current 10.5.2 ATI drivers.

Note: this is the 1GB x2 version of the card and not two separate cards linked in crossfire.
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/ati-3870x2-review.ars

[mmulin]

It's a 2006 Mac Pro 1,1
...
Note: this is the 1GB x2 version of the card and not two separate cards linked in crossfire.
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/ati-3870x2-review.ars

in that case i concur

[winterspan]

Stealing bandwidth is just rude!

People will get the Radeon HD 3870 for professional applications where the Radeon X1900XT still is king.

Even the Radeon HD 2600 holds it own agains the Geforce 8800 GT in professional applications.

If this rumor is try it will make Motion cry with joy :D

EDIT:

It's a shame though as the R700 and RV700 is coming a month later, in june. Hopefully they make an EFI version :D

Just to get this straight, Core Image must be better optimized for ATI hardware if those cards are beating the 8800GT.
And this is no way reflects on OpenGL performance in OSX, right? Does anyone have benchmarks for OpenGL/3d graphics applications comparing the 8800GT to the ATI cards? I assume the 8800GT would easily best the older ATI cards, and probably beat the 3870 as well.

[ToastyX]

Hopefully this means the ATI Displays Panel will be updated so we can have options like vsync and FSAA again.

[motulist]

So exactly which task does a graphics card improve the performance of? Gaming of course, but what else?

[Analog Kid]

running two graphic cards combined (not driving separate displays). similar to have having two CPU/CPU-cores. in case of GPU you get the combined memory and bandwidth.
Thanks. That'll make Digital Skunk happy, if Apple supports it-- I think it's been on his wishlist for a while...

[BornAgainMac]

What is the performance like with Crysis with the NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600 card?

[Sesshi]

Just to get this straight, Core Image must be better optimized for ATI hardware if those cards are beating the 8800GT.
And this is no way reflects on OpenGL performance in OSX, right? Does anyone have benchmarks for OpenGL/3d graphics applications comparing the 8800GT to the ATI cards? I assume the 8800GT would easily best the older ATI cards, and probably beat the 3870 as well.

Yup. Not sure about beating, but clearly it's a case of CI optimisation. NVidia probably are proving themselves as unable to get their heads around CI as Vista drivers :p

I guess it depends on your interpretation of 'pro' apps. e.g. GPU wise I run all my video / image editing software on what are basically gaming PC's, with professional workstations (i.e. not the Pro) used for OpenGL related use. I am aware the Quadros provide some very high end video friendly features but I'm not pro enough for that, and I suspect many users here are not either - while Quadros have ready uses for engineering, 3D and related stuff, and the 8000-series don't exactly suck at it either.

What is the performance like with Crysis with the NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600 card?

I don't Boot Camp any of my Pros so can't tell you first hand, but I'm pretty sure not a huge boost from the 8800GT.

[netdog]

Any info on noise? Does it run cooler than a 2600? My 2600 is a little noisy, and I would welcome anything that would bring my overall dBs down even further in my 2x2.8

[Setmose]

It seems to me that ATI/AMD and Nvidia could bring their latest hottest cards to OS X whenever they like. Just like the PC sales model, they only need to provide installable drivers. Sure, it won't appear at the Apple website as CTO. But who cares. There's enough market, I think, for the GPU guys to invest in doing OS X drivers. They do already, but I think the Apple CTO cards simply have a lot more Apple QA and design input, plus the fact that Apple reserves the right to gate the release of drivers with OS X releases.

There are alternate paths & scripts for drivers to be installed in the OS X file hierarchy so that they will be loaded at boot time (and without messing up the baseline OS X installation). So it would just be a matter of ATI or Nvidia saying this is OUR offering, please report issues to US.

Can't see why they don't do it. :confused:

[BenRoethig]

Geforce 8800GT is the better card...

On windows. Driver situation is a bit different on the Mac.

[macz1]

Any info on noise? Does it run cooler than a 2600? My 2600 is a little noisy, and I would welcome anything that would bring my overall dBs down even further in my 2x2.8

It should run a bit cooler than the 2600XT (and definitely cooler than the 2600XT after the graphics "update" which basically disabled some power saving features -> more noise and heat when idling)

When running 3d-Games the 3870 heats up more but has a better cooler, too.

I'm pretty sure the 3870 will generally generate less noise than the 2600

[zorinlynx]

How much will it be, though?

ATI's X1900 G5 edition is still $400. They haven't bothered to lower the price to bring it inline with the street price of normal X1900 cards.

If the card debuts for $300 or $350, what good is that? Hopefully ATI will do this right.

[Tattoo]

Jeez, if I hear one more comment about Crysis....

It's as if every possible benchmark out there needs to be Crysis tested before we know if it is worth buying.

Its like all Movies being compared to TITANIC! :p

[Tattoo]

On windows. Driver situation is a bit different on the Mac.

I agree - Only on WinBlows ;)

[Thomas2006]

It's a shame though as the R700 and RV700 is coming a month later, in june. Hopefully they make an EFI version :D
Isn't EFI, or lack of, the reason why Mac users can't use the latest and greatest?

[fluidedge]

Hi,

i'm excited about this announcement - I run Maya, Final Cut, compositing packages and CS3.

The 8800GT is getting really cheap in store now (~£70/$150) and i'm wondering if it's worth buying an 8800GT and flashing it or buying this new ATI card.

What is the flashing process like? Is the end result identical to what you can buy off apple? - I'd only want to take this route if the end result was perfect.

Also what is the ATI card (3870) like with apps like Maya, Final Cut, Shake, Combustion, CS3?

[Berlepsch]

Just to get this straight, Core Image must be better optimized for ATI hardware if those cards are beating the 8800GT.

Of course, it could also be that NVidia's advantage lies in brute force polygon crunching, which may play a much bigger role in 3D gaming than in Core Image.

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

Anyone know what kind of price point Apple and ATI might be shooting for on this card?

[MacRumorUser]

[SIZE=1]Anyone know what kind of price point Apple and ATI might be shooting for on this card?

If 'common sense' plays any part; it will surely retail at the same price as the upgrade kit 8800GT. Giving people a valid two choice solution.

[Lord Blackadder]

This is excellent news - more choice for Mac Pro users. It's too be we don't see more retail cards for the Mac Pro of course, but something is clearly better than nothing.

If 'common sense' plays any part; it will surely retail at the same price as the upgrade kit 8800GT. Giving people a valid two choice solution.

It would be stupid for ATI to charge more for the retail 3870 than the 8800GT. *Hopefully* it will be cheaper. I'd like to see it at or under $180-$190.

[spaz8]

I wish barefeats would actually do some gfx test in 3d apps, like maya, modo.. etc.. not just use games. The 1900 could be faster in Fincal cut, and the 8800 waay faster in a game.. but that leaves the OpenGL in limbo..

It all comes down to drivers i guess.. i'm hoping 10.5.3 gives the 8800 a core image shot in the arm.

[wfehres]

Concerning the X1900 vs 8800GT. I have a good perspective on this.

At home i have a 3GHz first generation Mac Pro with X1900.
At work i have a 2.8Ghz 2nd generation Mac Pro with 8800GT.

Both machines are running 30" monitors and I play a lot of World of Warcraft as well as use pro applications (Aperture and etc).

Both machines run WoW flawless but the 8800GT does offer about a 10-30% gain in FPS depending on the scene you're in.

What really surprised me is that the X1900 runs OSX UI interface MUCH smoother than the 8800GT. Dragging windows is smoother, and when the UI does transition and etc, the X1900 does it smoother. I also notice that the X1900 can do more than one graphic intensive thing at a time without stuttering, unlike the 8800GT.

Here is an example..

If you run your mouse over the Dock and select the Dashboard, if the dock is not done animating (magnifying), the Dashboard will stutter terribly or skip the transition all together on the 8800GT. If you have any other GPU activity going on it'll do the same thing. On the X1900 it's ALWAYS smooth. I notice this sort of behavior in several places.

Even though i play WoW, i would buy the X1900 over the 8800GT because of how much better the X1900 runs OSX in general. I will be one of the first in line to get the ATI 3870 :)

[ChrisA]

A Mac Pro with a GeForce 8800 running Windows games is one darn expensive game console. For doing real work the Radeon HD 3870 will be much faster and less expensive.

[compuguy1088]

Why is the 8800 card considered better when the 2600 performs better on the pro apps? Is it just better for games? What about everything else besides games?

It does perform better in games...which equates it to be faster. From what I know on Pro apps, not all of them are video accelerated (Except for a few).

On windows. Driver situation is a bit different on the Mac.

Edit: Nm...seems like overall ATI's cards/drivers for OSX are better.

[BenRoethig]

Edit: Nm...seems like overall ATI's cards/drivers for OSX are better.

ATI typically writes their own drivers and hands them off to Apple. Nvidia hands over the source code to Apple and has them write their own drivers. We all know that apple isn't going to put more than a minimal effort into anything graphics related.

[Apple Corps]

A very basic question - I use a Mac Pro Quad with a 7300 GT graphics card. What new graphics card (if any) would give me a noteworthy performance improvement with Photoshop CS3 and Final Cut Express?

Thanks much.

[heynsmd2]

How much depends on graphic card capability on Mac OS X? (for ordinary use? Not pro apps so much?)


I use iMovie for editing about once a year, occasional Quicktime pro video conversion of imovies, and some simple Blender 3D renderings. I suspect any 'basic' discrete video capability is more than enough...


However I've recently used a friend's MacBook to make a short photo slideshow in iMovie for him and noticed VERY slow rendering of 'themes' in iMovie... I presume it is because inferior graphics, as the CPU is not far of my iMac's specs??


I'm not a 'power user' by any means, but graphics card doesn't seem to do much in OS X apart from some basic functions (like dashboard, 'genie effect' etc.)? or am I mistaken?

[Apple Corps]

heynsmd2 - that is the general impression I have been getting by reading through various threads.

BTW - a trip to you country was outstanding - Kapstadt was breathtaking - flying in was perhaps the most magnificent view I have experienced in my travels.

[ChrisA]

A very basic question - I use a Mac Pro Quad with a 7300 GT graphics card. What new graphics card (if any) would give me a noteworthy performance improvement with Photoshop CS3 and Final Cut Express?

Thanks much.

I think Final Cut uses the GPU to help with rendering and color space conversons, live tpe and such. I don't thing PS CS3 uses the card for much or anything. A few of the filters I think do.

[Trip.Tucker]

From a pure performance standpoint, NVIDIA's card is the victor. For the more price-conscious, ATI's HD3870 is an excellent deal.
If it is the single card we are talking about and not the double one. But since you claim it is a 512MB card, it must be the single one.

However, IF it does support Crossfire, you can get two of these and it will smoke the 8800GT. But that is unconfirmed, and it wont work in pre 08 Macs.


http://www.techspot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/crysisbench.png

http://8000.hillbillyhardware.com:8000/Reviews/hd3870vs8800gt/3dmark.gif

http://8000.hillbillyhardware.com:8000/Reviews/hd3870vs8800gt/wic2.gif

http://images.tomshardware.com/2007/11/15/amd_radeon_hd_3800/image007.png

I think you get it :)

Yeah, we get it Tom Pabst, oops, I mean OP. FPS means zip when the quality is in the toilet. :rolleyes:

[skellener]

A very basic question - I use a Mac Pro Quad with a 7300 GT graphics card. What new graphics card (if any) would give me a noteworthy performance improvement with Photoshop CS3 and Final Cut Express?. I don't think either of those take advantage of the GPU. Well Photoshop might with it's few 3D features. Adobe relies on CPU. Apple's Motion would take advantage of the new GPU though.

[ceres]

I hope AMD will release all major future PC Cards for the MAC.
They should be able to handle driver support as they have some experience in that particular field ;)

[bigwig]

I don't think either of those take advantage of the GPU. Well Photoshop might with it's few 3D features. Adobe relies on CPU. Apple's Motion would take advantage of the new GPU though.
How much of Core Graphics and Core Video is hardware accelerated? HD Video isn't, for example. I wonder if more Apple apps would be hardware accelerated, and vendors like Adobe would use them, if the underlying Apple frameworks supported it.

[jhenzie]

For what its worth, my Mac Pro shipped with the 2600XT and I upgraded to the 8800GT, but I have been incredibly disappointed with the 8800.

I have always felt that ATI have served the Mac market better than NVIDIA, it is unfortunate that the AMD 'merger' has robbed them of their focus.

If they do produce a 3870 for OS X, its very likely that I will replace the 8800. I feel that the ATI drivers are far better for OSX than NVIDIA and I would be very surprised if OS X gaming performance is equivalent. Crysis isn't available on the Mac so I am not overly concerned, yes I have played it, yes it is graphically stunning, but I will not keep the 8800 for one game.

I also have to wonder whether the ATI shader strategy will not start paying off soon.

Cheers

[Tattoo]

ATI typically writes their own drivers and hands them off to Apple. Nvidia hands over the source code to Apple and has them write their own drivers. We all know that apple isn't going to put more than a minimal effort into anything graphics related.

By the way BenRoethig, I love your signature! :D;)

[xraydoc]

I thought the xMac was something people not currently owning an Apple computer wanted. I see many contend Apple owners out there currently.

Really, not to start (yet another) xMac debate, but I would love Apple to release a mid-tower Mac.

I really don't need a $3000 8-core machine, since most of what I do is not going to benefit from that many processors. But the things that I actually do would be helped tremendously by a single faster processors. A 3.2GHz desktop-class dual core would be better for me than the 2 x dual or quad workstation/server-class chips in my current machine.

Most of the software I run is user-limited (word processing, page layout, etc.), so faster UI response is more important to me than cranking through multi-threaded 3 hour video encodes or 3D renders. 10 x 500MHz processors isn't going to make Leopard's UI any faster, but one 3,000MHz processor instead would be like night and day. For the users who need workstation-class power, obviously the octo-core (or higher) Mac Pros would still be available.

Even though I've got 4 hard drives in my machine currently, I'd be just as happy with three bays. And if Apple didn't put in these enormous workstation class Xeon processors, power supplies and heatsinks, a smaller mid-tower case could still accommodate 4 hard drive bays. Heck, my home-brew AMD machine has room for 4 hard drives, two opticals and a floppy!

And even though Apple doesn't want me upgrading the machine (since they'd rather sell me a new one), using a standard Intel desktop processor means more upgrade potential.

For me, I would never buy an iMac for my own use - I don't want to be restricted to the display the machine came with. And I might be tempted to replace my machine more frequently if it were cheaper. Its hard to replace $2700 towers every 18 months, you know.

I really think a mid-tower from Apple would sell like hotcakes. I can't imagine Apple would have a harder time turning a profit off smaller, less expensive towers. The cases, power supplies, motherboards/chips and processors would all be less expensive to buy at wholesale, so I'd think they could maintain their traditional 25% profit markup or whatever Apple tends to charge. Or perhaps it would be a bit less to remain competitive with cheap boxes like Dell and Acer, but still Apple could expect a premium for the brand name.

[slughead]

The 8800 is a great gaming card but NOT impressive running Apple Pro apps that rely on Core image. The Radeon 3870 may not run games as quite as fast as the 8800 but it's a better "balanced" card if you are using it for both games and "real work."

Is this because of the card itself or because of driver issues that could be resolved later?

Note that the 8800GT has had playback issues for many users, including myself (I just bought one). I mean, at present, I lose frames and get audio sync problems watching QT movies. My 7300GT (which is still installed) does better playing the same. Something is seriously wrong.

I highly doubt, if given good drivers, that the 2600XT could beat the 8800

[Pressure]

Is this because of the card itself or because of driver issues that could be resolved later?

Note that the 8800GT has had playback issues for many users, including myself (I just bought one). I mean, at present, I lose frames and get audio sync problems watching QT movies. My 7300GT (which is still installed) does better playing the same. Something is seriously wrong.

I highly doubt, if given good drivers, that the 2600XT could beat the 8800

It has to do with drivers and architecture.

While the Geforce 8800 GT has 112 Stream Processor Units, the Radeon HD 3800 series has 320 Stream Processor Units. However not all these 320 Stream Processor Units on the Radeon HD 3800 series is equal. Every 5th ALU in a Stream Processor Unit can handle special functions and extra integer processing ops.

To make it short, the architecture behind the R600/RV670 makes it much more effective with General-Purpose computation on GPUs (GPGPU).

For comparison, the Radeon HD 2600 has 120 Stream Processor Units.

[winterspan]

It has to do with drivers and architecture.

While the Geforce 8800 GT has 112 Stream Processor Units, the Radeon HD 3800 series has 320 Stream Processor Units. However not all these 320 Stream Processor Units on the Radeon HD 3800 series is equal. Every 5th ALU in a Stream Processor Unit can handle special functions and extra integer processing ops.

To make it short, the architecture behind the R600/RV670 makes it much more effective with General-Purpose computation on GPUs (GPGPU).

For comparison, the Radeon HD 2600 has 120 Stream Processor Units.


That's not correct. You CANNOT compare shader processors across companies like that. The RV670 and G92 are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT architectures. From a pure horsepower perspective, The 8800GT is definitely a faster card than the 3850/70 when it comes to DirectX and OpenGL in windows. The difference on the Mac is the drivers. As many have said in this same forum, ATI drivers seem to be much better optimized for the Core image/animation APIs than nVidia's drivers. Hence the reason why older ATI cards such as the X1900/X2900/etc appear to run OSX's interface and Apple "Pro apps" (those using Core Image/animation) better than more powerful nVidia cards such as the 8800GT.
Now of course it depends on how someone defines "Pro Apps". For 3D modeling applications on OSX that use OpenGL extensively, I would assume the more powerful 8800GT takes the cake against any of the Mac ATI cards, just as it does in OpenGL apps on windows. I don't have a link to benchmarks at the moment, but I'm searching.

[Pressure]

That's not correct. You CANNOT compare shader processors across companies like that. The RV670 and G92 are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT architectures. From a pure horsepower perspective, The 8800GT is definitely a faster card than the 3850/70 when it comes to DirectX and OpenGL in windows. The difference on the Mac is the drivers. As many have said in this same forum, ATI drivers seem to be much better optimized for the Core image/animation APIs than nVidia's drivers. Hence the reason why older ATI cards such as the X1900/X2900/etc appear to run OSX's interface and Apple "Pro apps" (those using Core Image/animation) better than more powerful nVidia cards such as the 8800GT.
Now of course it depends on how someone defines "Pro Apps". For 3D modeling applications on OSX that use OpenGL extensively, I would assume the more powerful 8800GT takes the cake against any of the Mac ATI cards, just as it does in OpenGL apps on windows. I don't have a link to benchmarks at the moment, but I'm searching.

That's exactly why I am stating they ARE in fact different architectures. I didn't feel like getting too technical with how many Vec3 ADD/MUL/MADD and Scalar ADD/MUL/MADD calculations the chips are capable of per clock.

I am just stating that for General-Purpose computation on GPUs the 5 MADDs x 64 = 320 Stream Processor Units of the Radeon HD 3800 series is better than the Geforce 8800 GT.

[Edd.Dantes]

Ok, since I do run Solidworks on my Mac Pro, which should I upgrade to ?


Radeon 3870 or 8800GT ?


Please, no "build a windows box" answers. I do have a windows box but I use my Mac Pro for work.


Solidworks seems to like OpenGL a lot.


I do not do anything on SW that is too intense, so a simple "this card" or "that card" will suffice.


Just want to see what other CAD folks will be upgrading to ?


TIA

[winterspan]

Ok, since I do run Solidworks on my Mac Pro, which should I upgrade to ?
Radeon 3870 or 8800GT ? Solidworks seems to like OpenGL a lot.
I do not do anything on SW that is too intense, so a simple "this card" or "that card" will suffice. Just want to see what other CAD folks will be upgrading to ?
TIA

Well, let me preface this by saying I am not an expert, nor do I have direct experience with both cards using OpenGL Apps or OpenGL apps on the Mac specifically, either. I just did some basic searching around.

It was actually difficult to find ANY information on this topic, because nearly all of the discussion of graphics cards in the context of OpenGL and CAD/CGI apps invariably is about the professional workstation cards ala ATI FireGL and nVidia Quadro.

After searching around, it becomes obvious that for [current] workstation cards, nVidia's Quadro is faster than the equivalent ATI FireGL in professional OpenGL Apps. However, most likely due to nVidia crippling their Geforce OpenGL drivers to upsell you to Quadro, the Geforce line (including G92/8800GT) appears to be slower than the newest ATI Radeon 38xx series. I am actually somewhat shocked by this due to the domination by Nvidia's G92 (8800 series) in DirectX gaming performance and the industry-standard '3DMark' benchmark versus ATI's 3850/3870.

Since many of OSX's APIs are built on (i assume) OpenGL, this might explain why there has always been anecdotal reports (and benchmarks somwhere - I'm sure) of ATI cards dramatically outperforming more expensive nVidia cards in applications utilizing Core Image/Animation and even the OSX desktop feeling more fluid and responsive.

Unfortunately, I didn't write down all the references I found, but I found this one in my history:

Benchmark: SPEC viewperf (OpenGL CAD and 3D graphic apps benchmark)
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2168891&enterthread=y
Results: ATI 3870 2x-2.5x as fast as nVidia 8800GT in OpenGL rendering tasks

[hugodrax]

Looks like the 3870 will be my future card. I use Aperture and I would rather take advantage of more core image performance VS games. I do play games on occasion but Core Image performance is my primary objective for an upgrade.

[Edd.Dantes]

Well, let me preface this by saying I am not an expert, nor do I have direct experience with both cards using OpenGL Apps or OpenGL apps on the Mac specifically, either. I just did some basic searching around.

It was actually difficult to find ANY information on this topic, because nearly all of the discussion of graphics cards in the context of OpenGL and CAD/CGI apps invariably is about the professional workstation cards ala ATI FireGL and nVidia Quadro.

After searching around, it becomes obvious that for [current] workstation cards, nVidia's Quadro is faster than the equivalent ATI FireGL in professional OpenGL Apps. However, most likely due to nVidia crippling their Geforce OpenGL drivers to upsell you to Quadro, the Geforce line (including G92/8800GT) appears to be slower than the newest ATI Radeon 38xx series. I am actually somewhat shocked by this due to the domination by Nvidia's G92 (8800 series) in DirectX gaming performance and the industry-standard '3DMark' benchmark versus ATI's 3850/3870.

Since many of OSX's APIs are built on (i assume) OpenGL, this might explain why there has always been anecdotal reports (and benchmarks somwhere - I'm sure) of ATI cards dramatically outperforming more expensive nVidia cards in applications utilizing Core Image/Animation and even the OSX desktop feeling more fluid and responsive.

Unfortunately, I didn't write down all the references I found, but I found this one in my history:

Benchmark: SPEC viewperf (OpenGL CAD and 3D graphic apps benchmark)
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2168891&enterthread=y
Results: ATI 3870 2x-2.5x as fast as nVidia 8800GT in OpenGL rendering tasks



winterspan, I cannot thank you enough for your perfect response.


Sometimes things can get out of hand when dealing with X vs. X card, etc. You answered my questions to the best of your knowledge and I really do appreciate the help.


With that said, I believe I will hold out for the Radeon.


I do not do enough SW to justify the expense of a Quadro or FireGL. If that day comes, business would be good, I will then use a dedicated windows box for CAD/CAM work.


For now, ATI it is :)


Now the wait begins !

[Pressure]

Well, let me preface this by saying I am not an expert, nor do I have direct experience with both cards using OpenGL Apps or OpenGL apps on the Mac specifically, either. I just did some basic searching around.

It was actually difficult to find ANY information on this topic, because nearly all of the discussion of graphics cards in the context of OpenGL and CAD/CGI apps invariably is about the professional workstation cards ala ATI FireGL and nVidia Quadro.

After searching around, it becomes obvious that for [current] workstation cards, nVidia's Quadro is faster than the equivalent ATI FireGL in professional OpenGL Apps. However, most likely due to nVidia crippling their Geforce OpenGL drivers to upsell you to Quadro, the Geforce line (including G92/8800GT) appears to be slower than the newest ATI Radeon 38xx series. I am actually somewhat shocked by this due to the domination by Nvidia's G92 (8800 series) in DirectX gaming performance and the industry-standard '3DMark' benchmark versus ATI's 3850/3870.

Since many of OSX's APIs are built on (i assume) OpenGL, this might explain why there has always been anecdotal reports (and benchmarks somwhere - I'm sure) of ATI cards dramatically outperforming more expensive nVidia cards in applications utilizing Core Image/Animation and even the OSX desktop feeling more fluid and responsive.

Unfortunately, I didn't write down all the references I found, but I found this one in my history:

Benchmark: SPEC viewperf (OpenGL CAD and 3D graphic apps benchmark)
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2168891&enterthread=y
Results: ATI 3870 2x-2.5x as fast as nVidia 8800GT in OpenGL rendering tasks

That's not entirely correct though.

The FireGL V7700 beats every Quadro card made so far in professional applications, while being cheaper.

[Bubba Satori]

That's not entirely correct though.

The FireGL V7700 beats every Quadro card made so far in professional applications, while being cheaper.

In Maya, yes. In 3D Studio Max, it's about 30% slower. For Mac users, a non-issue, though. Wish Apple offered an option for the FireGL cards on the Mac Pro. It's hard to believe that after all this time of Intel Mac Pros, there's only one professional video card option for it, the 5600 Quadro. Though I'm not surprised Apple only offer the most expensive card, :rolleyes:

[Pressure]

In Maya, yes. In 3D Studio Max, it's about 30% slower. For Mac users, a non-issue, though. Wish Apple offered an option for the FireGL cards on the Mac Pro. It's hard to believe that after all this time of Intel Mac Pros, there's only one professional video card option for it, the 5600 Quadro. Though I'm not surprised Apple only offer the most expensive card, :rolleyes:

Weird, reading the only review I can find of the FireGL V7700 (http://www.3dprofessor.org/Reviews%20Folder%20Pages/V7700/v7700p12.htm) it appears to beat everything else.

[Bubba Satori]

Weird, reading the only review I can find of the FireGL V7700 (http://www.3dprofessor.org/Reviews%20Folder%20Pages/V7700/v7700p12.htm) it appears to beat everything else.

Very Impressive. Hadn't seen that. Thanks for the link. Off too the Apple store to see what that adds to the cost of a Power Mac I'll be getting next month. Oh, wait...:mad:

[Pressure]

Very Impressive. Hadn't seen that. Thanks for the link. Off too the Apple store to see what that adds to the cost of a Power Mac I'll be getting next month. Oh, wait...:mad:

It retails for $1,099 but hopefully the plain-jane Radeon HD 3870 will mimick some of that. After all, the FireGL V7700 is just a rebadged Radeon HD 3870.

The bad news seem to be that the RV770 or the successor to the RV670 (Radeon HD 3800 series) is getting released this month (May 2008).

[Bubba Satori]

It retails for $1,099 but hopefully the plain-jane Radeon HD 3870 will mimick some of that. After all, the FireGL V7700 is just a rebadged Radeon HD 3870.

The bad news seem to be that the RV770 or the successor to the RV670 (Radeon HD 3800 series) is getting released this month (May 2008).

Yeah, the 4000 series. That's why the retention of the two generation old 2400 and 2600 cards in the recently "updated" :rolleyes: iMacs is so sad and why I will be getting a Mac Pro that at least has some upgradability. Maybe by the time the Nehalem machines arrive, we will have access to the entire lines of Quadro's and FireGL's and not just one, $2,500, 5600 Quadro. I can't say that I'm very hopefull, though, considering the recent 8800 fiasco and it's poor performance in pro apps compared to the 2 and 3 year old Ati cards.

[Kusakun]

And what About HDMI. Is the ATI going to include that? Really Important to HD output. Im About to buy my Mac Pro and I want to know that

Thanks a lot!

Diego

[Pressure]

And what About HDMI. Is the ATI going to include that? Really Important to HD output. Im About to buy my Mac Pro and I want to know that

Thanks a lot!

Diego

Isn't it only vital for protected content?

I mean, DVI is already digital and pretty much the same as HDMI, just without sound.

[Tallest Skil]

Really Important to HD output.

You don't need HDMI for HD video output; you need HDCP, which no Mac has.

WWDC will change that, though, and Apple will offer a BluperDrive option in the Mac Pro.

If anything else gets a BluperDrive, it'll be the 17" MacBook Pro. NOTHING ELSE.

[Bubba Satori]

You don't need HDMI for HD video output; you need HDCP, which no Mac has.

WWDC will change that, though, and Apple will offer a BluperDrive option in the Mac Pro.

If anything else gets a BluperDrive, it'll be the 17" MacBook Pro. NOTHING ELSE.


And we should fall on our knees in gratitude for this wonderfulness. We are not worthy. :rolleyes:

[kabunaru]

I heard that ATI graphics cards produce a better quality image/video than NVidia cards. Is this true? Do games and the Operating System actually look better with ATI cards than NVIdia ones?
If that's the case, why get the 8800 GT card other than for a better gaming perfomance?

[BenRoethig]

There was a major programing goof from the Apple programing team that did the 8800 drivers. Should be fixed in 10.5.3.

[toke lahti]

I mean, DVI is already digital and pretty much the same as HDMI, just without sound.
Hdmi1.3 can have xvYCC gamut and 10/12/16-bit color depth. Dvi has neither of them.

[winterspan]

winterspan, I cannot thank you enough for your perfect response.


Sometimes things can get out of hand when dealing with X vs. X card, etc. You answered my questions to the best of your knowledge and I really do appreciate the help.


With that said, I believe I will hold out for the Radeon.


I do not do enough SW to justify the expense of a Quadro or FireGL. If that day comes, business would be good, I will then use a dedicated windows box for CAD/CAM work.


For now, ATI it is :)


Now the wait begins !

hey, no problem. I totally agree with your sentiment with graphics card fanboys... I figured I was going to start a huge flame war! :) I'm just out for the truth with the rest of the sane people... lol

[D4F]

any application using OpenGL will benefit having the 8800 several times more than any of currently available ATI cards for mac.
If you are heavy into CG and use a lot of 3D apps then wait till the new ATI gets a decent test from a reliable source. I know I will take a good look at it before I dump my $$. I'm all about 3D (lightwave, cinema 4D, silo, vue, ZBrush) and the 2600 is a pure joke. My iMac's 8800 simply destroys it so I will wait till I see the numbers of the new ATI. Considering my pro will arrive in about 7 days I still have time and hopefully the ATI will be out by then.

[Pressure]

Hdmi1.3 can have xvYCC gamut and 10/12/16-bit color depth. Dvi has neither of them.

That's all fine and dandy but there are no currently available graphic cards that can output HDMI 1.3

[toke lahti]

That's all fine and dandy but there are no currently available graphic cards that can output HDMI 1.3
Would 3870 be the first? ;)
Btw, what GPU playstation3 has?

[winterspan]

Hdmi1.3 can have xvYCC gamut and 10/12/16-bit color depth. Dvi has neither of them.

HDMI 1.3 can doubles HDMI's frequency to 340mhz and thus increases bandwidth to 10.2Gbits/s vs dual-link DVI's 7.92Gbits/s. Also, there is a Type-B cable for HDMI which increases the pins from 19 to 29 (the type-B connector looks just like DVI) and increases bandwidth to over 20Gbits/s. This is enough pixel pushing to support 3840x2400 "Quad-HD" displays. That would certainly make a kick-ass panel replacement for the 30" Apple display..

Btw, what GPU playstation3 has?

Playstation has a sort of custom Nividia GPU based on the Geforce 7800 called the "RSX". Most people think it's a heavily scaled down 7800GTX

[toke lahti]

Playstation has a sort of custom Nividia GPU based on the Geforce 7800 called the "RSX". Most people think it's a heavily scaled down 7800GTX
Have I understood right that it is hdmi1.3 compliant?

[Pressure]

Would 3870 be the first? ;)
Btw, what GPU playstation3 has?

I am pretty sure it is HDMI v 1.2

[Eidorian]

It's 4870 (http://www.bilgiustam.com/512mb-ati-hd-4870rv770-1gb-geforce-9800-gx2-crysis-ve-3dmark-2006-testleri/) time.

[MacsRgr8]

It's 4870 (http://www.bilgiustam.com/512mb-ati-hd-4870rv770-1gb-geforce-9800-gx2-crysis-ve-3dmark-2006-testleri/) time.

Holy cr@p!

ATi is really coming back!.. well for Windows only I assume ;)
Such a good race: ATi vs nVidia. Who wins? Us, the customers! :)

[cdrtravis]

4870X2. Want it.

[Pressure]

It's 4870 (http://www.bilgiustam.com/512mb-ati-hd-4870rv770-1gb-geforce-9800-gx2-crysis-ve-3dmark-2006-testleri/) time.

Holy cr@p!

ATi is really coming back!.. well for Windows only I assume ;)
Such a good race: ATi vs nVidia. Who wins? Us, the customers! :)

4870X2. Want it.

Don't put too much into it.

It is fake ;)

[toke lahti]

I am pretty sure it is HDMI v 1.2
Wikipedia says it's 1.3a, but who knows...

[Minocan]

I hope ATI will their include "ATI Displays" with their 3870. This program made ATI shine on mac os x.

It wasn't present on intels until you made a little "hack" (works wonders) Hope they'll include it.

[kabunaru]

It's 4870 (http://www.bilgiustam.com/512mb-ati-hd-4870rv770-1gb-geforce-9800-gx2-crysis-ve-3dmark-2006-testleri/) time.

Awesome. I wonder why Apple likes NVIDIA so much when ATI cards are better designed for Mac OS X and for Pro Apps? There's more NVIDIA choices than ATI for the Mac Pro right now. Why does Apple like NVIDIA more than ATI? Why can't the Mac Pro just have all ATI cards since they are better for pro stuff anyways?

[PAUL BRIAN]

will this new card be an option in BTO Macs ?

[Tallest Skil]

will this new card be an option in BTO Macs ?

No. I still don't believe that they'll do it.

[Edd.Dantes]

Any new buzz ?

[Obocop]

Any new buzz ?

My 8800gt just arrived at the apple store so i'm also keen to hear more news on the 3870 too before I take the plunge (or at least hear more about leopard 10.5.3 with rad new drivers for the 8800). I would much rather a 4870 though. :)

[schnee]

Yeah, this is killing me. My pointer was hovering over the 'buy' button for a Mac Pro yesterday. I've hit the refurb area so often - and built up a spec in the shopping cart and then walked away - that I've probably skewed their traffic this month. :D

Glad I found this thread. I'll wait until WWDC, and this video card stuff shakes out.

[Eidorian]

Photos of Radeon HD 4800s (http://www.behardware.com/news/9682/photos-of-radeon-hd-4800s.html)

[aLoC]

Is there any more recent news on the HD 3870 for Mac? I am interested in buying one.

[Kusakun]

Maybe in WWDC. I dont Know... Im going to buy a Macpro with the 8800GT since I need the computer now. Besides in my country it will take almost a month or so to arrive the apple stores :(

[SHOlover]

I want to buy! Now!:o

[NRose8989]

Photos of Radeon HD 4800s (http://www.behardware.com/news/9682/photos-of-radeon-hd-4800s.html)

is that a S-Video Port? Why do they still do that? seriously they should just put a 2x DVI's then a HDMI if anything.

[chewietobbacca]

That S-Video actually allows for component cables

And the DVI is already set so it can do HDMI and I believe DisplayPort for the 4800's

Too bad it might be another 6 months before 4800's get brought over to Macs, if at all

[bpepers]

There was a major programing goof from the Apple programing team that did the 8800 drivers. Should be fixed in 10.5.3.

Any details on what the goof was and what will be corrected in 10.5.3? I'm hoping that this will fix the issue with COD2 being so slow on the Mac with the 8800 and just generally make the UI faster with the 8800.

[Roy]

Any details on what the goof was and what will be corrected in 10.5.3? I'm hoping that this will fix the issue with COD2 being so slow on the Mac with the 8800 and just generally make the UI faster with the 8800.


Is everyone just wishing and hoping for a fix in 10.5.3 or it on the agenda for upcoming fixes to 10.5.2? Wishing and hoping "don't make it so".

[Rankrotten]

Installed 10.5.3 but it still doesn't have the drivers to recognize the 3870x2 in slot 1, in fact the ATI kext versions are unchanged from the previous system. If ATI have drivers for the 38XX series please release them now.

[Pressure]

Installed 10.5.3 but it still doesn't have the drivers to recognize the 3870x2 in slot 1, in fact the ATI kext versions are unchanged from the previous system. If ATI have drivers for the 38XX series please release them now.

The Radeon HD 3800 series have been supported since 10.5.2.

The problem being the lack of an EFI rom for the graphic cards...

[Rankrotten]

Ok but if I let the mac boot with the x1900 I was hopeful the drivers would initialise the 3870 regardless of the ROM. Maybe not.

The OP stated
My source also confirmed that the Radeon 2600 (and 3870) drivers in Leopard 10.5.3 will provide surprising performance enhancements for 3D gamers. And just in case 10.5.3 gets delayed, they will ship the enhanced drivers with the card. but the enhanced drivers do not seem to be rolled into the 10.5.3 update as far as I can see.

[Eidorian]

is that a S-Video Port? Why do they still do that? seriously they should just put a 2x DVI's then a HDMI if anything.It's a mini-DIN breakout connector for Component video. ;)

[Edd.Dantes]

I have received confirmation from a reliable source that ATI will definitely offer a retail version of the Radeon HD 3870 with 512MB DDR4 that will boot OS X Leopard on both current and legacy Mac Pros. It will be "on the shelves" by the end of May.

It will, of course, boot Windows XP or Vista in your Boot Camp partition. And, like the 2600, I expect it to support CrossFire mode under Windows if you have two installed and jumpered.

My source also confirmed that the Radeon 2600 (and 3870) drivers in Leopard 10.5.3 will provide surprising performance enhancements for 3D gamers. And just in case 10.5.3 gets delayed, they will ship the enhanced drivers with the card.



Swing and a miss :cool:

[portishead]

Swing and a miss :cool:


To be fair, he still has 2 days. I'm also eagerly waiting...

[macz1]

The end of may is getting closer and closer... but no news about the 3870. If ATI is putting so much effort into the upcoming 4800 series they could develop the mac version as well at the same time...

[orpheus1120]

Popcorn anyone?

[Obocop]

The end of may is getting closer and closer... but no news about the 3870. If ATI is putting so much effort into the upcoming 4800 series they could develop the mac version as well at the same time...

Yeah, that would be the obvious thing to do to keep Mac customers up to date and happy. It puzzles me why Jobs hasn't tried to strike exclusive deals with ATI (or Nvidia) to get their latest offerings like with Intel. Sucks that we get last gen cards at almost the exact same time as the new PC versions are out. Come on ATI, you like us better than that right? I will gladly give you my money if you show us some love :rolleyes:

[deathshrub]

i genuinely hope apple starts offering more graphics cards for macs. would be a step in the right direction.

really wished they offer the mythical mid-range Mac minitower. which could be upgraded nicely over a 2-3 year period. and then get another one.

it would also be more important to have HDCP compliant video cards, so mac's could also be used with hd content, from blu-ray discs to hd vod via itunes. to be like the apple tv

I'd prefer an OS that wasn't locked down with DRM for now. Just look at Windows Fista - the OS that DRM built.

Also, learn how to use an apostrophe.

[fluidedge]

I'd prefer an OS that wasn't locked down with DRM for now. Just look at Windows Fista - the OS that DRM built.

Also, learn how to use an apostrophe.

I really don't get the arguments about DRM? I have an iPod (as do millions of others) so what's the problem with downloading tracks that only play on an iPod.

DRM is there to try to help prevent piracy and thus keep costs down for law abiding consumers. Films are the same - they can only be played by the person thats downloaded them - fine. If i've paid for something i don't want to share it with anyone else. DRM is fantasic imo. Do you support piracy then?

[Mackilroy]

It's not about piracy. It's about using what you've paid for on any device that you own. Sure, Apple has DRM, but compared to Vista's it's small potatoes.

[schnee]

I really don't get the arguments about DRM? I have an iPod (as do millions of others) so what's the problem with downloading tracks that only play on an iPod.

DRM is there to try to help prevent piracy and thus keep costs down for law abiding consumers. Films are the same - they can only be played by the person thats downloaded them - fine. If i've paid for something i don't want to share it with anyone else. DRM is fantasic imo. Do you support piracy then?

Nice troll.

[Eidorian]

I'd prefer an OS that wasn't locked down with DRM for now. Just look at Windows Fista - the OS that DRM built.

Also, learn how to use an apostrophe.Do you playback anything that has DRM?

[Wild-Bill]

I really don't get the arguments about DRM? :rolleyes:

Well then you are certainly in the extreme minority then.

[Peace]

So here we are. Is this thing out yet?

[portishead]

Also, learn how to use an apostrophe.
If you want correct grammar, take an english class. This is the interweb, nobody gives a $#!+.

[Tallest Skil]

Eight hours to go... where's your vaunted 3870?

Apple has NEVER updated/added a GPU without a CPU change.

If you want correct grammar, take an english class. This is the interweb, nobody gives a $#!+.

Try getting help from now on. If you don't understand the importance of having proper grammar when speaking on the emerging medium for global communication, then you don't deserve to be a part of it.

[Pressure]

Eight hours to go... where's your vaunted 3870?

Apple has NEVER updated/added a GPU without a CPU change.

It could be launched at WWDC :)

[Pressure]

Seems like barefeats are ready to spill the beans soon.


GOOD NEWS AND BAD NEWS
The good news is that the Core Image performance of the GeForce 8800 GS and GT are significantly improved with the Mac OS X 10.5.3 update. The bad news? In most cases, the performance only improved enough to become roughly equal that of the "base" Radeon HD 2600 Pro or XT.

If you want an optional graphics card that significantly improves the Core Image performance of Apple's consumer and pro apps above that of the "base" Radeon 2600, then you're going to be very interested in the test results for the soon-to-ship Radeon HD 3870 -- which we will be posting in a few days.

I surely hope the Radeon HD 4800 family will be released EFI compatible.

Hopefully barefeats can post the firmware ;)

[Rankrotten]

Hopefully barefeats can post the firmware ;)
If anyone posts the mac EFI bios for the 3800 series I will flash both cores on my 3870x2 and report back :D

[MacsRgr8]

So here we are. Is this thing out yet?

Couple of days over it now..

Maybe WWDC is far better time for ATi to launch such a card.
Keeping fingers crossed....

Mind you, I have the 8800 GT card in my Mac Pro, which is doing fine.... but if Barefeats show dramatic speed improvements in both Mac OS X (Apple Pro-apps) and Windows DirectX 10 gaming..... well.... there goes my credit card again.

[Pressure]

Couple of days over it now..

Maybe WWDC is far better time for ATi to launch such a card.
Keeping fingers crossed....

Mind you, I have the 8800 GT card in my Mac Pro, which is doing fine.... but if Barefeats show dramatic speed improvements in both Mac OS X (Apple Pro-apps) and Windows DirectX 10 gaming..... well.... there goes my credit card again.

It doesn't improve your DirectX 10 gaming experience. I thought this were well-known by now ;)

[MacsRgr8]

It doesn't improve your DirectX 10 gaming experience. I thought this were well-known by now ;)

Really?? Haven't done any research, just assumed it might outperform it.

So, now I am sure I wil stick to my 8800 GT :)

[yeroen]

It's June 2nd, two days past the zero hour, and no 3870.

Where's the wailing and gnashing of teeth?

[Spikeanator6982]

I got an order from OWC today and in the box as always came a catalog it has an ad for video cards. it has the ATI Radeon Pro HD 3870 512 MB video card for all Mac Pro Models. says ETA is June 2008, do you think they know that..or guessing?

[Peace]

I got an order from OWC today and in the box as always came a catalog it has an ad for video cards. it has the ATI Radeon Pro HD 3870 512 MB video card for all Mac Pro Models. says ETA is June 2008, do you think they know that..or guessing?

I got the same flyer from OWC.

Could be a guesstimate.

[Pressure]

I got an order from OWC today and in the box as always came a catalog it has an ad for video cards. it has the ATI Radeon Pro HD 3870 512 MB video card for all Mac Pro Models. says ETA is June 2008, do you think they know that..or guessing?

I got the same flyer from OWC.

Could be a guesstimate.

And in two weeks time we will know all about the Radeon HD 4800 series. Heck, we will even be able to buy it. I hope it comes with an EFI compatible rom ;)

[warheart]

Forget the 3870. The Nvidia 8800 GT is the better more powerful card. Apple engineering knows about the 8800 in apple pro apps and in 10.5 in general. They have stated that the drivers are new and first they program for stability and then optimization. It's a software issue. Once this software issue is updated for optimization the 8800 will burn the 3870. The only possible potential behind the 3870 is if your gonna run Crossfire on the windows side.

[Pressure]

Forget the 3870. The Nvidia 8800 GT is the better more powerful card. Apple engineering knows about the 8800 in apple pro apps and in 10.5 in general. They have stated that the drivers are new and first they program for stability and then optimization. It's a software issue. Once this software issue is updated for optimization the 8800 will burn the 3870. The only possible potential behind the 3870 is if your gonna run Crossfire on the windows side.

Actually, this is not the case in professional applications.

[D4F]

Actually, this is not the case in professional applications.

Proof?

[BenRoethig]

Forget the 3870. The Nvidia 8800 GT is the better more powerful card. Apple engineering knows about the 8800 in apple pro apps and in 10.5 in general. They have stated that the drivers are new and first they program for stability and then optimization. It's a software issue. Once this software issue is updated for optimization the 8800 will burn the 3870. The only possible potential behind the 3870 is if your gonna run Crossfire on the windows side.

The 8800 may be the better card, but the Geforce drivers suck on OSX.

[BenRoethig]

Proof?

http://www.macworld.com/article/131949/2008/02/macproeight28.html

http://www.barefeats.com/imp04.html

[D4F]

http://www.macworld.com/article/131949/2008/02/macproeight28.html

http://www.barefeats.com/imp04.html

I was talking against the 3 series actually.
The 8800 was suposed to be better out of the box and it wasn't so I just wonder if the same thing will happen with the new ATI.

[BenRoethig]

I was talking against the 3 series actually.
The 8800 was suposed to be better out of the box and it wasn't so I just wonder if the same thing will happen with the new ATI.

ATI does their own OSX drivers and puts a lot of effort into them. Apple does the Nvidia drivers and doesn't put a whole lot of effort into them. The 3870 should have very good core image performance.

[D4F]

ATI does their own OSX drivers and puts a lot of effort into them. Apple does the Nvidia drivers and doesn't put a whole lot of effort into them.

I don't get things for granted with Apple anymore :)
Obvious isn't obvious anymore so I simply wait to see the numbers before I make statements better/worse.

[OddThomas]

I got the same flyer from OWC.

Could be a guesstimate.

Very excited to see this.. probably means ATI is prepping them. Should be a good card for those of us that still have the 2600. Looks like the driver for the 8800 is making progress as well, given the barefeats tests that we've seen.

[dogbait]

ATI does their own OSX drivers and puts a lot of effort into them. Apple does the Nvidia drivers and doesn't put a whole lot of effort into them. The 3870 should have very good core image performance.

Where did you hear that? I'm curious since ATI's Linux drivers have an appalling reputation, so it would be very surprising if ATI could code decent drivers for a different flavor of *ix.

[yeroen]

I don't get things for granted with Apple anymore :)
Obvious isn't obvious anymore so I simply wait to see the numbers before I make statements better/worse.

ATI and Apple both write the drivers. They have teams which share source code under a non-disclosure agreement. It's a collaborative effort.

(Somewhere, I have to find the link, there was an interview with one of ATI's higher ups (a vice president, I think) discussing their relationship with Apple, and about Apple's graphics architecture in the then new Leopard)

[zmttoxics]

Where did you hear that? I'm curious since ATI's Linux drivers have an appalling reputation, so it would be very surprising if ATI could code decent drivers for a different flavor of *ix.

It's different for OS X though. You have to keep in track the time lines. ATI has been doing video cards for Mac and Sun based computers for years (yes, a lot of those old ultras and blades have ATI video cards in them). They are very capable of making drivers for those platforms.

Unfortunately, unlike nVidia who has had linux drivers for many years now, ATI only started making official drivers for them a few years ago. So it was a choice between crappy open source linux drivers or crappy new age ATI closed source drivers. A bout a year or 2 ago (i cant remember) ATI heard our cries and open sourced the drivers allowing for more rapid development.

Now, something to note, you can't compare OS X or Solaris or Linux as flavours of "*ix" as you put it because they dont have the same kernels. The kernels (and binary systems for that matter) are all completely different and do not support each other drivers. What allows for cross platform software (not drivers) are programming standards like POSIX and System V compliance. They are what allow for unix and linux programs to easily be moved across platforms (that support the same standards).

[Frozonecold]

ATI and Apple both write the drivers. They have teams which share source code under a non-disclosure agreement. It's a collaborative effort.

(Somewhere, I have to find the link, there was an interview with one of ATI's higher ups (a vice president, I think) discussing their relationship with Apple, and about Apple's graphics architecture in the then new Leopard)
If you can find the link please post it as I am very interested in reading about it.

[yeroen]

If you can find the link please post it as I am very interested in reading about it.



Architosh interview with ATI (http://architosh.com/features/2007/chatside/ati/070128_ati-1.html)

Here's the quote:

It's not an arm's length relationship. We are close. We don't just
throw Apple a little package of binaries at the end of each day. Rather, we see 50% of their source code and they see 80% of ours. We sync up with each other's source depot every day or two. Sometimes it gets to several times a day. There are probably about 50 conversations a week with Apple engineers. Working with Apple is different than working with any other computer manufacturer. Basically we function as an extended part of their team. The only way to write drivers for the Mac is to work this way with Apple

[Rankrotten]

Where is this card, May has gone, WWDC is over :confused:

[rpaloalto]

Wwdc goes to the 13th, their still is hope. Keep them fingers crossed. ya right:(

[Edd.Dantes]

Since AMD(ATI) has been doing so poorly, against Intel & Nvidia, I cannot imagine that delay tactics work in their interest.


From a business standpoint, releasing it when it is ready is # 1.


They could just make a big show at WWDC, after the fact.


Everyday that they delay, if that is the case, is one more day that users purchase the 8800GT. [ Those that are not aware of ATI's work on the 3870 ]


So, either it isn't ready or they are stupid for waiting.


I honestly have no idea which it is :confused:

[fluidedge]

just because it wasn't announced at the most boring keynote in the history of keynotes doesn't mean it won't be announced at WWDC. It's just the sort of thing they could release once all the dust has settled around the iPod announcement. Perhaps Wednesday?

[yeroen]

Maybe they'll give us the 4870, FireGL, together with a GPGU stream processing API.

Then again, maybe not.

[Bubba Satori]

Maybe they'll give us the 4870, FireGL, together with a GPGU stream processing API.

Then again, maybe not.

As badly as I want those, I'm thinking probably not. It's no longer Apple Computer. No headless macs, no non-glossy imacs, limited choices of video cards, no blu-ray, no $600-$800 mid range laptops, un-updated minis and ACDs for years. Seems I picked a bad time to switch, when computers are not the prime focus. I applaud Apple's, but it's sad to see the computers become the redheaded stepchild after such a glorious history.

[kabunaru]

As badly as I want those, I'm thinking probably not. It's no longer Apple Computer. No headless macs, no non-glossy imacs, limited choices of video cards, no blu-ray, no $600-$800 mid range laptops, un-updated minis and ACDs for years. Seems I picked a bad time to switch, when computers are not the prime focus. I applaud Apple's, but it's sad to see the computers become the redheaded stepchild after such a glorious history.

Blame it all on the iPhone.
I sometimes wish Apple hasn't made the iPhone because it looks like they lost a lot of interest in their computer stuff. :rolleyes:

[Topper]

Blame it all on the iPhone.
I sometimes wish Apple hasn't made the iPhone because it looks like they lost a lot of interest in their computer stuff. :rolleyes:

I can't complain. I love the Mac Pro.
I look at it this way, as long as iPhone is making money for Apple, then Apple is happy and I'm happy.:)

[MatchFrame]

Blame it all on the iPhone.
I sometimes wish Apple hasn't made the iPhone because it looks like they lost a lot of interest in their computer stuff. :rolleyes:

The iPod-->iPhone trend seemed to divert a lot of Apple's attention; however, they may be looking at it as customers gained for their computers.

The iPhone just got a lot more affordable (for the first time I'm actually considering getting one), has plenty of mass-appeal new features, AND the integration/sync with their computer counterparts is the greatest it's been.

The iPhone was an industry breakthrough in "coolness" but not revolutionary for Apple as a company. NOW it can really penetrate the market, build its iPhone base (all those people that couldn't afford an iPhone before and all the people who couldn't justify the price of an iPod for its limited-by-comparison functionality), and convince all of them that their Mac OS X is just as innovative and user-friendly as the "iPhone OS X" as Apple called it.

This could be the case. I don't know if it was the plan, but hopefully it will turn things back towards the computers.

All the same, when will they announce the HD 3870 ALREADY!!!! You're killing me Apple!

[kabunaru]

All the same, when will they announce the HD 3870 ALREADY!!!! You're killing me Apple!

Or when will they announce the HD 4870 already? :p I think they might as well just skip the 3870 now.

[slughead]

So am I to understand that NVidia writes the Mac video card drivers? I thought it was Apple, or at least collaborative.

[Firefly2002]

As badly as I want those, I'm thinking probably not. It's no longer Apple Computer. No headless macs, no non-glossy imacs, limited choices of video cards, no blu-ray, no $600-$800 mid range laptops, un-updated minis and ACDs for years. Seems I picked a bad time to switch, when computers are not the prime focus. I applaud Apple's, but it's sad to see the computers become the redheaded stepchild after such a glorious history.

During what time period in Apple's history did they embody most of the qualities you're talking about..?

When did they ever have a $6-800 lappy? Macs are the cheapest they've ever been by far.... the first PowerBook G3 (running on the old architecture- 50 MHz bus, EDO RAM, not 66 MHz/SDRAM- cost what.... $4999?

They've never been quick (or cheap) about upgrading their display lines... remember how much the original "HUGE!" 22" Apple Cinema Display cost? $3999! For something like 1600x1024 res?

And Apple's choice of video cards has always been limited. There was a time the only kind you could get was ATI... and by ATI, I mean a Rage IIc or a Rage Pro... later a Rage 128, then finally we got 3dfx and ATI.. and of course 3dfx went out of business, lol.

I agree with you the options aren't great... and the Mac Mini hasn't been updated in forever, but you picked pretty much the best time you could have as far as I can tell, especially when it comes to the way they're updating their OSes.

As for Blu-Ray, well, Apple's always been something of a latecomer to technology shifts... think PCI, ATA, SATA, AGP, PCI-E, etc. I've heard they've said they're not going to do it, but then, you have to take everything Apple says with a grain of salt.. possibly block of salt. Half the time they make an absolute statement like that it's completely untrue by the next year. ;)

I hear you on the iPod/iPhone thing, though...

Anyway, it's not so bad as it seems :D

[schnee]

During what time period in Apple's history did they embody most of the qualities you're talking about..?

Yeah, I was gonna say that too. Let's all go back to the glorious days of NuBus, ADB, chatty Appletalk, etc...

[kabunaru]

I am starting to think that this HD 3870 rumor is false...

[Obocop]

I'm glad i bought my 8800gt now. I would be so angry right now if i had of kept waiting for the 3870. I agree with others in that they should just scrap the 3870 plans now and focus on getting a mac 4870 out. They missed the boat on the former.

[Rankrotten]

There has never been any official announcement from Apple or ATI regarding 3870 cards.

[H00NER]

There has never been any official announcement from Apple or ATI regarding 3870 cards.

Indeed, this pernicious rumor was begun by two sites: Barefeats and xlr8yourmac.com. This story was then reprinted by other websites, many often quoting directly from Barefeats. I suspect that this has had the effect of driving a lot of traffic to these two sites. In the end, I doubt there will be any new card for the MacPro. As others have noted, Apple only introduces new graphics card with the release of a new model of the MacPro. Now that the WWDC has ended, I think that is a moment to reflect on the circulation of "Mac rumors" and to call out those who spread them.

[dogbait]

It's different for OS X though. You have to keep in track the time lines. ATI has been doing video cards for Mac and Sun based computers for years (yes, a lot of those old ultras and blades have ATI video cards in them). They are very capable of making drivers for those platforms...

Ah, I see, thanks for the explanation :)

[ToastyX]

Indeed, this pernicious rumor was begun by two sites: Barefeats and xlr8yourmac.com. This story was then reprinted by other websites, many often quoting directly from Barefeats. I suspect that this has had the effect of driving a lot of traffic to these two sites. In the end, I doubt there will be any new card for the MacPro. As others have noted, Apple only introduces new graphics card with the release of a new model of the MacPro. Now that the WWDC has ended, I think that is a moment to reflect on the circulation of "Mac rumors" and to call out those who spread them.
I thought everyone knew that "coming end of May" is marketing speak for "shipping by the end of June". That's how it always works. It's coming. Just give it a couple more weeks. Also, it's not Apple releasing a new graphics card. This will be a retail card from AMD/ATI.

[parkie]

just seen this, not sure if it's been posted already but it's looking good for the mac version of the 3870.

http://www.amdzone.com/index.php/component/content/article/92-amd/9811--amd-pushes-macr-based-visual-computing-beyond-hd

p

[kabunaru]

just seen this, not sure if it's been posted already but it's looking good for the mac version of the 3870.

http://www.amdzone.com/index.php/component/content/article/92-amd/9811--amd-pushes-macr-based-visual-computing-beyond-hd

p

So it finally has been released it looks like? :confused:

Edit: Found another link: http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/06/12/amd.radeon.hd.3870.for.mac/

[yeroen]

Or here:

(report of) 3870 announcement (http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/06/12/amd.radeon.hd.3870.for.mac/)

[MacsRgr8]

Indeed, this pernicious rumor was begun by two sites: Barefeats and xlr8yourmac.com. This story was then reprinted by other websites, many often quoting directly from Barefeats. I suspect that this has had the effect of driving a lot of traffic to these two sites. In the end, I doubt there will be any new card for the MacPro. As others have noted, Apple only introduces new graphics card with the release of a new model of the MacPro. Now that the WWDC has ended, I think that is a moment to reflect on the circulation of "Mac rumors" and to call out those who spread them.

I don't agree.
Barefeats and xlr8yourmac are both very respectable sites. They don't need this kind of "traffic-generating-fud", and I'm pretty sure Barefeats really was informed that ATi would make a Mac verison of the 3870.
ATi have made retail cards for the Mac before without them being introduced in new Macs.
Cards like the 8500 AGP, 9200 PCI, 9800 Pro, X800 XT are all aftermarket retail cards, with excellent driver support and fun extra features like TV-out and 3D add-ons for games.
It wouldn't surprise me that the 3870 is promised, but (as usual) delayed...

EDIT:
Cheers, yeroen and kabunaru :)

[yeroen]

and now there's even a review:

xlr8yourmac 3870 Review (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/ATI_3870_Mac_PC_review/radeonhd3870_review.html#storytop)

[MacsRgr8]

and now there's even a review:

xlr8yourmac 3870 Review (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/ATI_3870_Mac_PC_review/radeonhd3870_review.html#storytop)

TNX!!

The Radeon HD 3870 lags a little behind the GeForce 8800 GT in most games tested - the notable exception is Mac-UT2004
Hmm... interesting. Me glad wid da 8800 GT :D

[kabunaru]

TNX!!


Hmm... interesting. Me glad wid da 8800 GT :D

If I were to get the Mac Pro today, I will order it with 3870. I think ATI cards are better for OS X overall (besides gaming).

Edit: Interesting on the Crysis test...

[slughead]

Indeed, this pernicious rumor was begun by two sites: Barefeats and xlr8yourmac.com. This story was then reprinted by other websites, many often quoting directly from Barefeats. I suspect that this has had the effect of driving a lot of traffic to these two sites. In the end, I doubt there will be any new card for the MacPro. As others have noted, Apple only introduces new graphics card with the release of a new model of the MacPro. Now that the WWDC has ended, I think that is a moment to reflect on the circulation of "Mac rumors" and to call out those who spread them.

That's really paranoid dude.

Also: you're wrong.

[Edd.Dantes]

Where to pre-order ?


Anyone got a lead ?

[yeroen]

Where to pre-order ?


Anyone got a lead ?

Someone here saw it with a 'coming soon' caption in an OWC catalog.

OWC is where I'll likely buy it.

[kabunaru]

Or here:

(report of) 3870 announcement (http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/06/12/amd.radeon.hd.3870.for.mac/)

and now there's even a review:

xlr8yourmac 3870 Review (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/ATI_3870_Mac_PC_review/radeonhd3870_review.html#storytop)

Why isn't this Front Page news yet? This should be Front Page news as soon as possible so that more people would know about this.

[Edd.Dantes]

Someone here saw it with a 'coming soon' caption in an OWC catalog.

OWC is where I'll likely buy it.


Thank you kindly !

[yeroen]

OWC now has it available for pre-order at $227.99

http://eshop.macsales.com/search/video+cards+PCI+Express

[Edd.Dantes]

Sweet, just pre-ordered !


I look forward to Barefeats review tomorrow.


https://eshop.macsales.com/search/video+cards+PCI+Express

[yeroen]

Sweet, just pre-ordered !


I look forward to Barefeats review tomorrow.


https://eshop.macsales.com/search/video+cards+PCI+Express

Did they charge or put a hold on your credit card?

[kabunaru]

Great... Now "8800 GT or HD 3870?" threads are going to fill up the Mac Pro forum. :rolleyes:

[barefeats]

I'll give you guys an early look at my test results on the Radeon HD 3870 Mac & PC Edition (vs other GPUs for the 2006-2008 Mac Pro).

http://www.barefeats.com/harper16.html (Core Image apps)

http://www.barefeats.com/harper17.html (Mac Games)

http://www.barefeats.com/harper18.html (PC only Games under Vista 64)

[kabunaru]

I'll give you guys an early look at my test results on the Radeon HD 3870 Mac & PC Edition (vs other GPUs for the 2006-2008 Mac Pro).

http://www.barefeats.com/harper16.html (Core Image apps)

http://www.barefeats.com/harper17.html (Mac Games)

http://www.barefeats.com/harper18.html (PC only Games under Vista 64)

Thanks Barefeats. The ATI Radeon HD 3870 is a good all-around card. I wonder if people are going to choose this card more than the 8800 GT for their Mac Pros?

[SCSnare]

Thanks Barefeats. The ATI Radeon HD 3870 is a good all-around card. I wonder if people are going to choose this card more than the 8800 GT for their Mac Pros?

I'm already leaning that way. I'm gonna wait a bit though to make sure all is well with the card.

[Mackilroy]

Thanks for the info, Barefeats.

[toke lahti]

Pretty lame that 3870 has same amount of memory than 1900 two years before.
Does Moore's law work anywhere anymore?

And 3870 has same performance with older MPs with FCS than with 1900.
What a progress!

[cxc]

Twice the price of the PC Version and obviously a welcome way to unload stock before the 4850/70 and their budget brethrens hit the PC shelves.
Why no 4850/70 for the MAC?

[Kusakun]

I will stick with the 8800GT. I actually use the computer for Pro applications but i will not change the video card to gain 30 secs to 1 minute in video rendering. I bought my Mac Pro last friday because I been waiting the 3870 for a couple of weeks and nothing... -I sold my G5 QUAD more than 1 month ago and I needed a Computer-...

Pity... -but I guess can live with that-

[Kusakun]

Twice the price of the PC Version and obviously a welcome way to unload stock before the 4850/70 and their budget brethrens hit the PC shelves.
Why no 4850/70 for the MAC?

I dont know why... We are a little bit behind in mac. We have the 8800 -PC the 9800-. We have the 3870 -PC the 4870-.

[Celeron]

How much quieter is this new ATI card compared to the ATI X1900?

[zmttoxics]

I dont know why... We are a little bit behind in mac. We have the 8800 -PC the 9800-. We have the 3870 -PC the 4870-.

I think its because OS X (and linux / solaris) don't support SLI / Crossfire / Multiprocessor video cards. The 3870x2 is actually a PCIE Birdge on the card for the 2 chips (cards) to talk to each other directly, which is why we didn't get one. The 4xxx are all going to be multi-gpu cards.

[barefeats]

How much quieter is this new ATI card compared to the ATI X1900?

Much quieter. It's on par with the GeForce 8800 GT on noise levels.

[Bubba Satori]

I dont know why... We are a little bit behind in mac. We have the 8800 -PC the 9800-. We have the 3870 -PC the 4870-.

iPhones. Computers are, and will remain, on the backburner. No new ACD, Mini, Blu-ray, non-glossy iMac, card readers on laptops or video card updates. I picked a great time to switch. :mad:

[iLike]

I'll give you guys an early look at my test results on the Radeon HD 3870 Mac & PC Edition (vs other GPUs for the 2006-2008 Mac Pro).

http://www.barefeats.com/harper16.html (Core Image apps)

http://www.barefeats.com/harper17.html (Mac Games)

http://www.barefeats.com/harper18.html (PC only Games under Vista 64)

Is there any chance you could post Cinebench 10 results vs 8800GT BUT only 1vs1??

Thank you

[barefeats]

Is there any chance you could post Cinebench 10 results vs 8800GT BUT only 1vs1??

I'm not a big fan of the Cinebench 10 OpenGL test since it's only in a 1024x768 window and is a combination of CPU and GPU, but I'll post it here.

This is an average of three runs of the Cinebench 10 OpenGL Benchmark:
Radeon HD 2600 XT = 6475
Radeon HD 3870 = 6958
GeForce 8800 GT = 6785

[iLike]

I'm not a big fan of the Cinebench 10 OpenGL test since it's only in a 1024x768 window and is a combination of CPU and GPU, but I'll post it here.

This is an average of three runs of the Cinebench 10 OpenGL Benchmark:
Radeon HD 2600 XT = 6475
Radeon HD 3870 = 6958
GeForce 8800 GT = 6785

Thx.
I like those numbers because they give you great idea how it performs in 3D applications and that is a big deal.
Altho I wonder how you get 64xx with the 2600. Crazy high for some reason.

Now I know that the 3870 is a go for me. Appreciate it a lot.

[Kusakun]

In My oppinion the users that now own the 8800gt they shouldnt swap the card. Is just my oppinion. Different for the Users about to buy a Macpro in the Following weeks or the ones that only have the ATI HD 2600 XT

[Firefly2002]

Pretty lame that 3870 has same amount of memory than 1900 two years before.
Does Moore's law work anywhere anymore?

And 3870 has same performance with older MPs with FCS than with 1900.
What a progress!

Right, because any game on the market today benefits from 1 GB of RAM, and given the Radeon's 256-bit memory architecture, <i>of course</i> it could introduce a 768 MB version like some of the the 384-bit GeForce cards...

Seriously, do you just look at numbers without having a damn clue what they mean? The only cards that need that much memory are workstation graphics cards.

Moore's law has to do with the total number of transistors on a chip doubling every 18 months or so, nothing to do with speed. And actually, it's more complicated than that. Go do some reading.

:rolleyes:

[yeroen]

Twice the price of the PC Version and obviously a welcome way to unload stock before the 4850/70 and their budget brethrens hit the PC shelves.
Why no 4850/70 for the MAC?

Not to kill the new graphics card high everyone's enjoying, but you are exactly right about the offloading of old stock right as the 4800 series comes out.

[kabunaru]

Not to kill the new graphics card high everyone's enjoying, but you are exactly right about the offloading of old stock right as the 4800 series comes out.

And with the Nehalem Mac Pros we will get 4-series Radeon cards while PC users will have 5-series Radeon cards. :rolleyes:

We should ask AMD to release new video cards for the Mac Pro every 6 months. Pretty much a six-month cycle. I think that's a good idea.

[Silencio]

iPhones. Computers are, and will remain, on the backburner. No new ACD, Mini, Blu-ray, non-glossy iMac, card readers on laptops or video card updates. I picked a great time to switch. :mad:

Apple's been behind on the video card front since long before the iPhone. It's simply a much smaller market (obviously limited to only Mac Pros) and thus gets less attention from ATI and Nvidia. There are fewer technical barriers than during the PPC days, so the situation should slowly but surely get better.

I wouldn't hold my breath on Blu-Ray support in Mac OS X, by the way. Knowing Apple, they would be loath to implement the onerous, end-to-end DRM it requires for playback.

[Firefly2002]

I thought it was coming out for $220? That's not twice the price.. at least not twice the introductory price. Did they drop it to $100? That can't be right...

You're not wrong though... but that's generally how it's done with Macs. Kinda always been that way. It's unfortunate, especially given how much faster the 4870's supposed to be.

On the bright side though, it can replace a lot of those 1900XTs, especially given how absurdly overpriced the 1900's were.

I guess they just don't have anywhere near the number of resources devoted to developing Mac drivers/BIOS versions for the card as they do the PC (which makes sense) so it takes them a lot longer to come out. Oh well.

It does seem like they could make it every-other product cycle instead of skipping like three generations, though...

[barefeats]

... any game on the market today benefits from 1 GB of RAM...

I'm told that WoW will gobble up 1GB of VRAM, if you have it to spare, when you set the terrain detail/distance to max.

[barefeats]

And with the Nehalem Mac Pros we will get 4-series Radeon cards while PC users will have 5-series Radeon cards. :rolleyes:

We should ask AMD to release new video cards for the Mac Pro every 6 months. Pretty much a six-month cycle. I think that's a good idea.

The Nahalem Mac Pros may offer the Radeon 4xxx as a CTO, but you can bet that it will also be available for all models of Mac Pro, unlike what Apple did with the GeForce 8800 GT.

[D4F]

That's some good news!
Thx for the numbers Barefeats!
OpenGL looks great so I'm all over it!!!

[Edd.Dantes]

Did they charge or put a hold on your credit card?


Damn !


It appears that they charged me BEFORE shipment :rolleyes:


It may just be a CC ping but it looks like a full charge to me. If it goes away in the next few days, I will report.


Otherwise, assume you will pay the entire amount at the time of order.

[Firefly2002]

I'm told that WoW will gobble up 1GB of VRAM, if you have it to spare, when you set the terrain detail/distance to max.

I don't imagine that could be true, unless it's running uncompressed textures... but even if it were, at any resolution requiring 1 GB of RAM, the Radeon 3870 would already be choking to the point where you'd need a faster graphics card rather than a larger frame buffer.

Adding more memory chips to a card isn't the technological challenge, it's the large price rise that would result for (actually, in many cases a tiny performance <i>decrease</i>) the one or two instances out of hundreds where it might help.

ATI is trying to keep prices down because they can't compete at the moment with nVidia at higher price offerings... it wouldn't make any kind of sense, technical or fiscal.

[schnee]

Indeed, this pernicious rumor was begun by two sites: Barefeats and xlr8yourmac.com. This story was then reprinted by other websites, many often quoting directly from Barefeats. I suspect that this has had the effect of driving a lot of traffic to these two sites. In the end, I doubt there will be any new card for the MacPro. As others have noted, Apple only introduces new graphics card with the release of a new model of the MacPro. Now that the WWDC has ended, I think that is a moment to reflect on the circulation of "Mac rumors" and to call out those who spread them.

That's almost libelous, especially considering how much those two sites have done for the Mac community. Quoted for posterity.

[schnee]

Much quieter. It's on par with the GeForce 8800 GT on noise levels.

Would it be too much trouble to see if the layout of the top of the card matches the ATI 2600?

I'm curious if current aftermarket passive heatsinks will fit. I'm a quiet computing nerd. :cool:

[Weepul]

I'll give you guys an early look at my test results on the Radeon HD 3870 Mac & PC Edition (vs other GPUs for the 2006-2008 Mac Pro).

http://www.barefeats.com/harper16.html (Core Image apps)

http://www.barefeats.com/harper17.html (Mac Games)

http://www.barefeats.com/harper18.html (PC only Games under Vista 64)

I've a question: what happens if you leave 2x3870s with Crossfire jumper connected in the machine when you boot into OS X? Certainly you wouldn't get the benefit of Crossfire, but what does happen? Does it boot; do both cards behave normally? Worst case, do their fans run normally with video coming out of at least one?

[barefeats]

I've a question: what happens if you leave 2x3870s with Crossfire jumper connected in the machine when you boot into OS X? Certainly you wouldn't get the benefit of Crossfire, but what does happen? Does it boot; do both cards behave normally? Worst case, do their fans run normally with video coming out of at least one?

It runs normally. Unless you have a display connected to the second card, it is virtually ignored. The same is true when I had two Radeon HD 2600 XTs jumped in Crossfire mode.

[netdog]

Much quieter. It's on par with the GeForce 8800 GT on noise levels.

How do the noise levels and heat generation compare to the ATI HD 2600 in my early 2008 Mac Pro?

[aLoC]

Why do the Barefeats test results look so much better than the Xlr8 ones?

[D4F]

Why do the Barefeats test results look so much better than the Xlr8 ones?

I started to wonder same thing after I saw their OpenGL test of the 2600 which scored about 300 points higher than 95% of website/forums/blogs I've read.

Something isn't completely right here.

[kabunaru]

I started to wonder same thing after I saw their OpenGL test of the 2600 which scored about 300 points higher than 95% of website/forums/blogs I've read.

Something isn't completely right here.

Each machine produces different results, even though they have the same specs. :rolleyes:

[toke lahti]

Seriously, do you just look at numbers without having a damn clue what they mean? The only cards that need that much memory are workstation graphics cards.

Moore's law has to do with the total number of transistors on a chip doubling every 18 months or so, nothing to do with speed. And actually, it's more complicated than that. Go do some reading.

Actually increasing transistor amount usually means reduced line width which usually means more speed.
But my point was that so far AFAIK 3870 doesn't give anything more to pro apps user than 1900 gave 2 years ago. So there must be (again) something really wrong with the drivers.
I'd like to do fullHD graphics with Motion, but 1900 is just too slow and has too little memory for that. I can't afford a gpu which costs as much as the whole other system, so I was hoping that 3870 would be optimal solution for greater power and cost effectiveness. Sadly it does not seem to be that... or maybe we just wait another half an year for better drivers...

[m1stake]

Expecting what is essentially a gaming card to compete with a professional rendering card at the task of rendering is a little silly, no?

[barefeats]

Why do the Barefeats test results look so much better than the Xlr8 ones?

For one thing. XLR8YourMac tested on a 2.66GHz "2006" 4-core Mac Pro (6GB of RAM) and a 2.8GHz "early 2008" 8-core Mac Pro (8GB of RAM).

BareFeats tested on a 3.0GHz "2007" 8-core Mac Pro (16GB of RAM) and a 3.2GHz "early 2008" 8-core Mac Pro (16GB of RAM).

[m1stake]

Oh, so different hardware yields different results?! :rolleyes:

[pprior]

Now I'm normally a barefeats fan, but what the heck is up with the older mac showing the same or slower results with the new card vs the 1900?

This is getting very annoying - I had to send my 8800 card back to apple because the performance on Battlefield 2142 was totally unplayable, and I've been hearing good things about this card, and now the benchmarks show it's no better than a 3-4 year old card??? how can that possibly be? that would be like a 2ghz Intel chip running the same stats as a new 3.2ghz chip.

[SuperGrobi]

Hello there - sorry if my question was already answered in this thread but as far as I understand the Mac&PC edition of the 3870 will support Crossfire on a "Crossfire-supporting mainboard" in Windows/Vista ... this does not necessarily mean that Crossfire is supported running Windows/Vista on a Mac Pro 2008, right? Does anybody have more info about this? For me a switch to the 3870 would only make sense if this would allow me to use two in Crossfire. Also, does anybody know if a 3870x2 will work with the EFI used in the coming 3870?
Thanks for any info & hints!

[Rankrotten]

Also, does anybody know if a 3870x2 will work with the EFI used in the coming 3870?
Thanks for any info & hints!
No idea but I'm willing to try it on my 3870x2. There is a DDR4 v DDR3 RAM difference between the boards but I only need the EFI loader from it and the drivers should take over after the mac boots.

[toke lahti]

Expecting what is essentially a gaming card to compete with a professional rendering card at the task of rendering is a little silly, no?
I'd say that 8800 is a gaming card since it's faster in games and slow with Motion & Color, but I hoped that 3870 would be better choise for Motion & Color than 2600. If you're just using FCS and no 3d modelling software, 3k$ quadro isn't very reasonable choise...

[kabunaru]

I'd say that 8800 is a gaming card since it's faster in games and slow with Motion & Color, but I hoped that 3870 would be better choise for Motion & Color than 2600. If you're just using FCS and no 3d modelling software, 3k$ quadro isn't very reasonable choise...

For me:
HD2600XT: Middle-range card, fine for most people
8800 GT: Gaming card
HD 3870: "Pro" card
FX 5600: Advanced "Pro" card