Apple Adds Java SE 6 to Leopard

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Today, Apple issued a 57MB update (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/javaformacosx105update1.html) to Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard), adding support for Java SE 6 version 1.6.0_05.This Java for Mac OS X 10.5 Update 1 adds Java SE 6 version 1.6.0_05 to your Mac. This update does not replace the existing installation of J2SE 5.0 or change the default version of Java.
The update requires Mac OS X 10.5.2 or later, and a 64-bit Intel-based Mac. Apple had previously seeded (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/18/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-10-5-2-and-java-se-6-preview-8-for-leopard/) a developer's preview of Java SE 6 for Leopard to ADC developers.

The lack of Java 6 support when Leopard was released had received much criticism (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2202328/apple-leopard-stomach-java).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/04/29/apple-adds-java-se-6-to-leopard/)

[LukeHarrison]

Ooh, good news!

EDIT: Ah, just seen that it's Intel only, maybe not so good.

[nineteentwelve]

Now they just need to add it to the iPhone. :rolleyes:

[darthraige]

Yayyyy, new computer when I get home. Love downloading updates! Keep em comin'. :D

[nineteentwelve]

The update requires Mac OS X 10.5.2 or later, and a 64-bit Intel-based Mac.

I've just installed this on my MacBook. So it doesn't need a 64-bit Intel-based Mac. Just an Intel-based Mac. :confused:

[cloudnine]

Stupid question, but how does this benefit the end user?

Just curious :)

[AnthonyKinyon]

Original posting said: "The update requires Mac OS X 10.5.2 or later, and a 64-bit Intel-based Mac. "

Sounds like a decent update but how come there's no 32-bit version for early Intel Mac Mini machines, or any update for PowerPC at all, even if the system is running Leopard? Seems kind of odd that they'd just "forget about" all of those loyal users. Maybe an update for those machines is forthcoming.

[socamx]

I've just installed this on my MacBook. So it doesn't need a 64-bit Intel-based Mac. Just an Intel-based Mac. :confused:

All Core 2s (and the Xeons Apple has used so far) are 64 bit, only older Core Duo/Solo Macs aren't 64 bit Intel.

[Eraserhead]

EDIT: Ah, just seen that it's Intel only, maybe not so good.

And 64 bit only :rolleyes:. This is lame Apple.

Stupid question, but how does this benefit the end user?

Just curious :)

They can run applications designed for Java SE 6, which I imagine adds new features for developers.

[damacus]

Anyone have an idea why they didn't also release this for the PPC?

[Claytoniss]

Sounds like a decent update but how come there's no 32-bit version for early Intel Mac Mini machines, or any update for PowerPC at all, even if the system is running Leopard? Seems kind of odd that they'd just "forget about" all of those loyal users. Maybe an update for those machines is forthcoming.

Yes what about the loyal PPC people! Maybe tomorrow?

[daneoni]

I've just installed this on my MacBook. So it doesn't need a 64-bit Intel-based Mac. Just an Intel-based Mac. :confused:

Your MacBook is a Core 2 Duo surely thats a 64-bit processor?

On another note, why did they ignore Tiger...it is a 64-bit OS after all....at least on some level

[Eraserhead]

Your MacBook is a Core 2 Duo surely thats a 64-bit processor?

Yes. Any Core 2 Mac is 64 bit.

[nineteentwelve]

Your MacBook is a Core 2 Duo surely thats a 64-bit processor?

My mistake. You learn something new everyday, huh?

[AnthonyKinyon]

Your MacBook is a Core 2 Duo surely thats a 64-bit processor?

Yes, all Core 2 Duo CPUs are 64-bit. Core Duo is 32-bit.

[Cromulent]

Anyone have an idea why they didn't also release this for the PPC?

Yes what about the loyal PPC people! Maybe tomorrow?

I guess because they decided it wasn't worth the effort. Every computer sold for the last year or so has been a 64bit Intel computer and will continue to be so. I guess they decided that they may as well support the computers that will be in most use in the future.

[socamx]

Maybe noting in the article which Macs are 64 bit Intel would be helpful for people, this really only applies to newer Macs and leaves a lot hanging.

[AnthonyKinyon]

My mistake. You learn something new everyday, huh?

Well you just learned you have a 64-bit CPU instead of a 32-bit one. Free upgrade. :) Sort of. In other words, its better than you thought it was.

[Cromulent]

Maybe noting in the article which Macs are 64 bit Intel would be helpful for people, this really only applies to newer Macs and leaves a lot hanging.

I doubt it shows up for computers without the required components. Anyone want to confirm or deny this for reference?

[Eraserhead]

Every computer sold for the last year or so has been a 64bit Intel computer and will continue to be so.

Mac Mini's before last August were 32 bit.

I guess they decided that they may as well support the computers that will be in most use in the future.

Come on, this is lame, Java applications for Mac STILL won't be able to use Java 6 that was released for Windows 18 months ago, they'll be pissing off too many users still using older Macs. There is no defending this move, Java doesn't require a 64 bit processor to run.

[AnthonyKinyon]

Maybe noting in the article which Macs are 64 bit Intel would be helpful for people, this really only applies to newer Macs and leaves a lot hanging.

Anything Core 2 Duo or above is 64-bit Intel (IA64).

Anything Core Duo is 32-bit Intel (IA32/x86).

Anything Gx (G5, G4 G3) is PowerPC (PPC).

You can check by going to the Apple Logo at the top left and clicking "About This Mac" to see what you've got.

[big_malk]

This Java for Mac OS X 10.5 Update 1 adds Java SE 6 version 1.6.0_05 to your Mac. This update does not replace the existing installation of J2SE 5.0 or change the default version of Java

This might be another silly question, but why wouldn't it replace the older version of Java? And why not make it the default version? Since I assume newer means better...?

[socamx]

I doubt it shows up for computers without the required components. Anyone want to confirm or deny this for reference?

I'm sure it doesn't, but clarification is always nice to keep confusion down.

Doesn't show up on my dual G5 for obvious reasons though. Hopefully it'll get pushed out for all Macs.

[Eraserhead]

This might be another silly question, but why wouldn't it replace the older version of Java?

Because some applications are version specific.

Apple is very Microsoftian on Java (well except for the backwards compatibility)

[Cromulent]

Mac Mini's before last August were 32 bit.

Fair enough. I thought they stopped them earlier.

Come on, this is lame, Java applications for Mac STILL won't be able to use Java 6 that was released for Windows 18 months ago, they'll be pissing off too many users still using older Macs. There is no defending this move, Java doesn't require a 64 bit processor to run.

Lame or not that is the situation.

I don't know if you have followed the developer previews but iirc they have been 64bit Intel only too meaning PPC and 32bit Intel releases are unlikely any time soon. Hopefully I'm wrong on that.

[flopticalcube]

It would be a poor show of judgement from Apple if they did forgo all the Core Duo/Solo and G4/G5 users. If Leopard is allowed to run on the machine, any updates should be made available. I will reserve judgement, however, for a few days to see if another release for the older processors is coming.

[Stella]

At last!

Apple drag their heels so much over Java.

OSX would be worse off without Java.

[Eraserhead]

I don't know if you have followed the developer previews but iirc they have been 64bit Intel only too meaning PPC and 32bit Intel releases are unlikely any time soon. Hopefully I'm wrong on that.

Yeah, but there were older ones before the latest batch weren't 64 bit only.

To be honest Apple is pretty bad for only letting the iPhone stuff work on Intel Macs rather than PPC too, but at least developers should be on Intel by now.

[Sky Blue]

Yes what about the loyal PPC people!

Loyal?? You haven't bought a new mac in years! :p

[AnthonyKinyon]

The page over at http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=47531 has some information about changing the default Java release used.

[Eraserhead]

It would be a poor show of judgement from Apple if they did forgo all the Core Duo/Solo and G4/G5 users. If Leopard is allowed to run on the machine, any updates should be made available. I will reserve judgement, however, for a few days to see if another release for the older processors is coming.

As the latest developer releases were 64 bit only, I wouldn't hold your breath.

[AnthonyKinyon]

Loyal?? You haven't bought a new mac in years! :p

They may have more than one Mac, including Intel-based, plus they may have purchased an iPhone, newer iPod, iLife/iWork, QuickTime Pro, or other Apple software, or made purchases on iTunes. So they could be a loyal customer and not have purchased a new Mac, or could simply have more than 1 Mac. :)

[superted666]

Applications > Utilities > Java > Java Prefrences then select Java 6 SE.

It does however post a strange warning claiming safari is only a 32 bit browser so it will not use java 6.

Doesnt this make it a pointless update?

[AnthonyKinyon]

It would be a poor show of judgement from Apple if they did forgo all the Core Duo/Solo and G4/G5 users. If Leopard is allowed to run on the machine, any updates should be made available. I will reserve judgement, however, for a few days to see if another release for the older processors is coming.

I agree with you. Your statement was reasonable, fair and measured.

[Sky Blue]

They may have more than one Mac, including Intel-based, plus they may have purchased an iPhone, newer iPod, iLife/iWork, QuickTime Pro, or other Apple software, or made purchases on iTunes. So they could be a loyal customer and not have purchased a new Mac, or could simply have more than 1 Mac. :)

dude, i'm kidding. Chill out.

[Eraserhead]

It does however post a strange warning claiming safari is only a 32 bit browser so it will not use java 6.

So not only does it not run on 32 bit/PPC Macs, but won't run web applets in Apple's default browser :eek:.

Does it even run 32 bit Java apps or is that not an issue.

[Yuppi]

That really was about time..
My bet is that Apple did not want to invest so much time into something that is quite useless. The problem with java 6 is that it still requires lots of special libraries. So I guess that Java 7 will arrive by far quicker because it is completely open source.

[AnthonyKinyon]

Applications > Utilities > Java > Java Prefrences then select Java 6 SE.

It does however post a strange warning claiming safari is only a 32 bit browser so it will not use java 6.

Doesnt this make it a pointless update?


Not necessarily, as many other apps can use Java (or require it) such as Limewire, Frostwire, OpenOffice and others.

[Cromulent]

That really was about time..
My bet is that Apple did not want to invest so much time into something that is quite useless. The problem with java 6 is that it still requires lots of special libraries. So I guess that Java 7 will arrive by far quicker because it is completely open source.

How did you come to the conclusion that Java 6 was useless?

[mserrano303]

The link in the OP is incorrect.

Here is the correct link: http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/javaformacosx105update1.html

[superted666]

The link in the OP is incorrect.

Here is the correct link: http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/javaformacosx105update1.html

True but safari would be its biggest use..........

[MichaelLatta]

Anyone have an idea why they didn't also release this for the PPC?

Because the HotSpot VM from sun favors Intel. Because Apple does not want to put resources into supporting code generation for PPC machines they no longer sell. Because the differences between 5 and 6 are not so critical that they see it as worth the effort. Those would be my guess.

[RedTomato]

The page over at http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=47531 has some information about changing the default Java release used.

You realise that link is from nearly THREE YEARS ago? It talks about the update from Java 4 to Java 5. We're on Java 6 now.

Whether any advice in that link is still correct is a matter of hit and miss.

[commander.data]

So if Java 6 is 64-bit, is the Safari browser compiled as 64-bit now too? Otherwise would a 64-bit plug-in work in a 32-bit Safari? And if you are running a 64-bit Safari, have other plug-ins been compiled as 64-bit yet?

[G4DP]

The funniest things for me "Requires Mac OS 10.5.2 at least"

Duh, that's all they've bloody given us, or has that slipped their minds.

[Peace]

So not only does it not run on 32 bit/PPC Macs, but won't run web applets in Apple's default browser :eek:.

Does it even run 32 bit Java apps or is that not an issue.

All good things in time.;)

[Claytoniss]

dude, i'm kidding. Chill out.

Well good thing you are kidding, I was going to say...

Thats just my home mac. I haven't needed to do anything to it for 2 years. Runs leopard just fine. Its stable.

At work I have a Mac Pro to worry about and along with 3 other Macs but I won't run leopard on them until they fix things with adobe that they KNOW about.

I sometimes feel I am not loyal, but more of a snob when it comes to macs and who has them and what they do with them.

Whatever I am done talking....:)

[AnthonyKinyon]

You realise that link is from nearly THREE YEARS ago? It talks about the update from Java 4 to Java 5. We're on Java 6 now.

Whether any advice in that link is still correct is a matter of hit and miss.

Yes I realize it is an old link. The procedure is still the same, as far as I am aware. Just because something is old doesn't mean it no longer works. :) It COULD be different but I'm not sure that it is. I was just trying to provide additional information incase it might be helpful to some. You are right though, that it may no longer pertain to OS X in Leopard.

[/dev/toaster]

Stupid question, but how does this benefit the end user?

Just curious :)

Its Java ... so it doesn't :D

[ArtOfWarfare]

Oh good.

I was worried my computer had somehow been compromised by a virus or something. I mean, Software update just popped up and told me it had already downloaded the patch and it just needed installing. Seems really weird... doesn't it normally wait for someone to approve of the downloads?

...

also, I've noticed applications crashing pretty frequently recently. (Quake 4 crashed 2 days ago, required a restart. StarCraft crashed while loading yesterday, required a restart. Safari has crashed twice in the past week... it didn't require me to restart though.)

...

possibly a virus disguised as a real patch? Oh well... damage is done because I've already approved of it. Maybe I should have thought of that before approving. Or maybe I've just had an unlucky week this pass week with my computer and now I'm being paranoid.

[Eraserhead]

Or maybe I've just had an unlucky week this pass week with my computer and now I'm being paranoid.

I'm afraid so.

[diamond.g]

Anything Core 2 Duo or above is 64-bit Intel (IA64).

Anything Core Duo is 32-bit Intel (IA32/x86).

Anything Gx (G5, G4 G3) is PowerPC (PPC).

You can check by going to the Apple Logo at the top left and clicking "About This Mac" to see what you've got.
Just for reference, only Itanium use IA64. All other Intel chips are x86-64 (or EMT64, AMD64, or just x64). Remember AMD won that war...

[FatGolfer]

All I can say is it's about time!

[Data]

OK ,it has installed, now what, should i go to the java pref's and select it even do Safari my default browser will not be able to use it, or will it just run for any app that does need java 6 even do it's not selected manualy.

I don't get it why this is so unclear on OSX.

Also, since 10.5 , when ever i am on a java based webcam site, i can not move the main page of that website to my dock while the cams stay on my desktop, is this something you can set in settings some where maybe, it's realy anoying.
Thanks. data.

[elppa]

True but safari would be its biggest use..........

No, those Apps (Limewire, Open Office) are written in Java.

Safari is not, it just uses the plugin to display java applets, which are few and far between.

[whynot83706]

And 64 bit only :rolleyes:. This is lame Apple.



They can run applications designed for Java SE 6, which I imagine adds new features for developers.

Thanks

[daneoni]

Great. I installed it on my BlackBook and then tried to go to the preferences to set it as default and it slaps me with the image below. I also have to resort to force quitting to quit the app. Also when i launch the web start app i also get an error

Great update Apple :rolleyes:

[moutian]

Safari won't use java 6. I put Java 6 as my first preference, then Azureus would not start.

So I just installed something I cannot use.

[ravenvii]

OK ,it has installed, now what, should i go to the java pref's and select it even do Safari my default browser will not be able to use it, or will it just run for any app that does need java 6 even do it's not selected manualy.

I don't get it why this is so unclear on OSX.

You've installed it. Hurray. End of story. You don't have to do anything. If an app requires it, it'll use it. You only want to manually turn it into the default if there's some benefit to doing so, and as far as I see there are not as of yet.

Forget about it, you've lived without it and probably didn't even know Java 6 exists until today. Quit freaking over it and get on with your life.

kthxbai

[Cromulent]

Safari won't use java 6. I put Java 6 as my first preference, then Azureus would not start.

So I just installed something I cannot use.

That's because they are all 32bit applications. The reason this requires a 64bit CPU is because it only includes the 64bit versions of the libraries.

[Eraserhead]

That's because they are all 32bit applications.

So the update is pretty much completely useless.

[psychofreak]

So the update is pretty much completely useless.
Until you get 64bit Java apps.

[Eraserhead]

Until you get 64bit Java apps.

Are there any of note yet?

[Data]

You've installed it. Hurray. End of story. You don't have to do anything. If an app requires it, it'll use it. You only want to manually turn it into the default if there's some benefit to doing so, and as far as I see there are not as of yet.

Forget about it, you've lived without it and probably didn't even know Java 6 exists until today. Quit freaking over it and get on with your life.

kthxbai

Well the fact is that i am on a java based webcam site almost every day, and i was hoping it would resolve the problem of the web cam windows not staying on my desktop when i move the main page of the site to the dock, that's why was interested in it, so cool down ;-).

[Stella]

Until you get 64bit Java apps.


Are there any of note yet?

The existing Java applications will work using Java6 , such as Eclipse, Open Office etc etc ( assuming they have no problems running with JRE 6.0 ).

[AnthonyKinyon]

Just for reference, only Itanium use IA64. All other Intel chips are x86-64 (or EMT64, AMD64, or just x64). Remember AMD won that war...

Sorry. Technically you are correct. I was just thinking Intel 64-bit = Intel Architecture 64-bit but IA64 is probably considered a specific seperate thing.

[pjarvi]

I thought Leopard was supposed to let you run all 64 bit software on a 32 bit cpu? I distinctly remember Steve-o making a big hoopla about that during a conference.

[Eraserhead]

The existing Java applications will work using Java6 , such as Eclipse, Open Office etc etc ( assuming they have no problems running with JRE 6.0 ).

It appears only if they're 64 bit ;).

I thought Leopard was supposed to let you run all 64 bit software on a 32 bit cpu? I distinctly remember Steve-o making a big hoopla about that during a conference.

No that isn't possible.

[Cromulent]

The existing Java applications will work using Java6 , such as Eclipse, Open Office etc etc ( assuming they have no problems running with JRE 6.0 ).

Are you sure they are using Java 6 and not just dropping back down to Java 5?

[deputy_doofy]

Can someone confirm that NeoOffice still runs after the update?

[macsmurf]

Finally! I wonder why they didn't include javadoc and source. It's there in 1.5. No matter, I got it from Sun.

This upgrade is of no interest to end-users, unless if you happen to program in Java.

[Cromulent]

Can someone confirm that NeoOffice still runs after the update?

It should do. It doesn't touch the existing Java just adds 64bit Java 6.

[RaceTripper]

It looks like the update also installed a 64-bit Java 5 runtime, because I certainly don't remember seeing that in Java Preferences before (and I just looked a couple days ago).

I'm going to switch to Java 6 as the default and see if Eclipse runs better/faster.

[Stella]

Are you sure they are using Java 6 and not just dropping back down to Java 5?

Yes, your right, I've just run Eclipse again and looking in the console, it does appear to drop back.

Boo.

However, compilation ( from command line - so I know I'm using Java 6 ) is a bit faster than Java 5.

[asdavis10]

Now we just need to get this and Flash for the iPhone 2.0.

[BRLawyer]

Its Java ... so it doesn't :D

Exactly, I don't even know why people are having this pissing contest now...if it's Java 5 or 6, nobody cares...Java applets and apps are close to useless in current personal computing scenarios, and slow as molasses in most configurations...and don't even tell me about alternative Java-based Office apps...;)

[deputy_doofy]

It should do. It doesn't touch the existing Java just adds 64bit Java 6.

Thanks. I like my machine to be as up-to-date as possible, provided that it doesn't break my "regulars." :)

[macsmurf]

Exactly, I don't even know why people are having this pissing contest now...if it's Java 5 or 6, nobody cares...Java applets and apps are close to useless in current personal computing scenarios

True. On the other hand a lot of Java developers made the switch to OS X some time ago, and they certainly do care.


, and slow as molasses in most configurations...and don't even tell me about alternative Java-based Office apps.


Well, I recently implemented an algorithm in Ruby and ported it to Java afterwards. That gave me a ~250x performance boost. Java is actually quite efficient these days.

[Eraserhead]

True. On the other hand a lot of Java developers made the switch to OS X some time ago, and they certainly do care.

Apple have really screwed up Java here to be honest.

[JSchwage]

Anyone have an idea why they didn't also release this for the PPC?Because Apple wants you to buy an Intel Mac. Not a good practice in my opinion.

[twoodcc]

good news! i bet this will make a lot of people happy, including me

[compuguy1088]

Because some applications are version specific.

Apple is very Microsoftian on Java (well except for the backwards compatibility)

LOL! Seriously, the changes between java 5 and 6 were not that drastic that there would be a need to have both on one machine.....

That's because they are all 32bit applications. The reason this requires a 64bit CPU is because it only includes the 64bit versions of the libraries.

That makes absolutely NO SENSE! Java is platform independent the last time I checked. Something that is compiled on Windows for java 6 should work on a mac with the 64 bit build. The only limitation with using 64-bit java is that it will not work on a 32 bit browser (the same thing with 64-bit version on windows). What I do not get is that there is no real advantage of having java compiled for 64 bit. It would make more sense to of made it for 32 bit to allow all intel macs to take advantage of Java 6....

[macsmurf]

Apple have really screwed up Java here to be honest.

I agree. I think it will difficult for Apple to be taken seriously in the Java world again without providing some sort of roadmap.

[Aaargh!]

Until you get 64bit Java apps.
There is no such thing as a 32-bit or 64-bit java app.

It's just the JVM that's 32 or 64 bits, there is no reason why a java app should not run on the 64bit JVM just because it's 64-bit.

[compuguy1088]

There is no such thing as a 32-bit or 64-bit java app.

It's just the JVM that's 32 or 64 bits, there is no reason why a java app should not run on the 64bit JVM just because it's 64-bit.

Agreed. Java is platform independent, allowing a app made in windows for java 6 to work in OSX. The only limitation with the OSX version of Java 6 is that it is 64-bit. This limits it to being used with 64 bit browsers (I cannot think of any at the moment for the mac...).

I agree. I think it will difficult for Apple to be taken seriously in the Java world again without providing some sort of roadmap.

It is lucky that Java isn't used widespread...oh wait a minute! Computer Science A and AB (AB is gone), are based on Java. (I wish they never switched from C++...)

[e7e]

so where can i download this? tried apple auto update nothing, and the link at 1st post seems broken

[Cromulent]

It's just the JVM that's 32 or 64 bits, there is no reason why a java app should not run on the 64bit JVM just because it's 64-bit.

Then using your logic all 32bit apps should work correctly in 64bit Windows but we know that is not the case. There are changes that need to be made to some applications.

[philips]

Stupid question, but how does this benefit the end user?

Personally as end-user I do not care about Java.

But I know there are lots of fans of the language.

And most importantly, Apple notebooks are one of the favorite machines among developers. Most of cries for Java actually were coming from developers - not end-users. You can hardly code eye-candy apps - MacOS famous for - in Java.

But now using Apple machines as workstations for the developers again became possible.

[flopticalcube]

so where can i download this? tried apple auto update nothing, and the link at 1st post seems broken
If Software Update didn't find it, you don't need it/can't use it. What Mac do you have?

[lkrupp]

At last!

Apple drag their heels so much over Java.

OSX would be worse off without Java.

As a consumer level user I can't think of a single site that uses Java that I visit on a regular basis. Not my banking site, not my credit cards sites, no forums, not any of the social networking sites. The only site I get the Java coffee cup loading indication is on one old speed test site. And I sure as h*ll don't know of any that use Java 6.0. This sounds to me like another one of those Geek Squad things that only a few weirdos need for online games and such. Again, as a consumer level, home user I just don't see the need for Java on the OS X platform.

And of course we all know that Javascript and Java are two completely different animals and related in name only.:confused:

[e7e]

I have a Macbook pro SR model (2.4) shouldnt the updater be able to find this?

[Eraserhead]

But now using Apple machines as workstations for the developers again became possible.

Well only if you have a 64 bit Intel Mac ;).

I have a Macbook pro SR model (2.4) shouldnt the updater be able to find this?

Yes, download it manually (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/javaformacosx105update1.html).

[bacaramac]

How do I get the nice ebay functions when I go to sell something? I thought it had something to do with Java, but I may be wrong. I have to list items on my windows work laptop in order to have the nice formatting. Anyone help on this?

I was hoping this would fix that, but not sure it will.

[compuguy1088]

Then using your logic all 32bit apps should work correctly in 64bit Windows but we know that is not the case. There are changes that need to be made to some applications.

Not necessarily...from the fact that Java is platform independent...there may be some minor changes needed in the interfaces of apps to work with Java 6 on the mac, but the apps should run fine. The only real problem is that Java 6 cannot be used with 32-bit browsers....for the obvious reasons.

Well only if you have a 64 bit Intel Mac ;).


Though there are unoffical builds of Java 6 that work with 32-bit only macs...SoyLatte for instance...
http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/

[elppa]

This seems quite a shoddy update for “the best Java delivery platform on the planet (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/03/mac.osx.html)” (the words of Steve Jobs, not me).

Have I surmised the situation correctly:
[1] Intel only
[2] 64bit only
[3] Still need Java 5 to run all of your current Java applications.

It seems to me Apple gave up on Java a while ago and it will die a slow death on the platform for as long as they have control of the JVM.

Taking away any pro or anti Java arguments, it is still a mistake, here's why:
[1] Apple sells to education, many computer science courses teach Java.
[2] Apple sells to developers, many developers write Java.

I believe Apple will loose at least some hardware sales as a result of this. How much of an impact it will make is debatable. No doubt they will have already done the maths.

Apple's thought of the day appears to be wake up and smell the Cocoa.

[stephan.works]

Fine but this is not what I was -personally- expecting...

http://utvv.blogspot.com/2008/04/java-6-finally-comes-to-mac.html

[Cromulent]

Not necessarily...from the fact that Java is platform independent...there may be some minor changes needed in the interfaces of apps to work with Java 6 on the mac, but the apps should run fine. The only real problem is that Java 6 cannot be used with 32-bit browsers....for the obvious reasons.

Irrelevant to the point made. Just because it is running on a virtual machine and not directly on the real machine does not remove the common problems that software faces when moving from a 32 to 64 bit implementation.

[e7e]

Well only if you have a 64 bit Intel Mac ;).



Yes, download it manually (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/javaformacosx105update1.html).

thanks :D

[RaceTripper]

I need to have both Java 5 and Java 6 for projects I'm working on. One is distributed to customers running on AIX that does not have a Java 6 runtime, and another that uses features of Java 6 not available in Java 5. I'm happy that both are available now.

[iJawn108]

Well uhh **** you apple. :mad:

[wrldwzrd89]

As a Java developer, I am highly disappointed. Shame on you, Apple.

*sigh* I guess there's no better time than now to bite the bullet and learn Objective-C.

[ryan.axiom]

So if Java 6 is 64-bit, is the Safari browser compiled as 64-bit now too? Otherwise would a 64-bit plug-in work in a 32-bit Safari? And if you are running a 64-bit Safari, have other plug-ins been compiled as 64-bit yet?

Safari is still 32 bit. If you run Activity Monitor the type of process will be displayed under the kind column. If it's 32 bit Intel it will say just Intel, 64 bit intel will say Intel(64-bit) or something like that...I haven't run Mathematica 6 (64-bit) in a while, so I can't remember exactly. Also PPC shows up as well.

Perhaps this is to prepare for a 64-bit Safari option?
:apple:

[macsmurf]

As a consumer level user I can't think of a single site that uses Java that I visit on a regular basis. Not my banking site, not my credit cards sites, no forums, not any of the social networking sites. The only site I get the Java coffee cup loading indication is on one old speed test site. And I sure as h*ll don't know of any that use Java 6.0. This sounds to me like another one of those Geek Squad things that only a few weirdos need for online games and such. Again, as a consumer level, home user I just don't see the need for Java on the OS X platform.


Java is primarily used on the server side, so you might be using a site that uses java without you knowing about it (such as ebay).

[compuguy1088]

This seems quite a shoddy update for “the best Java delivery platform on the planet (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/03/mac.osx.html)” (the words of Steve Jobs, not me).

Have I surmised the situation correctly:
[1] Intel only
[2] 64bit only
[3] Still need Java 5 to run all of your current Java applications.

It seems to me Apple gave up on Java a while ago and it will die a slow death on the platform for as long as they have control of the JVM.

Taking away any pro or anti Java arguments, it is still a mistake, here's why:
[1] Apple sells to education, many computer science courses teach Java.
[2] Apple sells to developers, many developers write Java.

I believe Apple will loose at least some hardware sales as a result of this. How much of an impact it will make is debatable. No doubt they will have already done the maths.

Apple's thought of the day appears to be wake up and smell the Cocoa.

It is not most.....it is all (at least in the United States) if they are AP. College courses are also focused on Java (to an extent).

As a Java developer, I am highly disappointed. Shame on you, Apple.

*sigh* I guess there's no better time than now to bite the bullet and learn Objective-C.

*Quotes previous post*


Though there are unoffical builds of Java 6 that work with 32-bit only macs...SoyLatte for instance...
http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/

[therevolution]

That makes absolutely NO SENSE! Java is platform independent the last time I checked. Something that is compiled on Windows for java 6 should work on a mac with the 64 bit build. The only limitation with using 64-bit java is that it will not work on a 32 bit browser (the same thing with 64-bit version on windows). What I do not get is that there is no real advantage of having java compiled for 64 bit. It would make more sense to of made it for 32 bit to allow all intel macs to take advantage of Java 6....

It has nothing to do with how many "bits" your browser is. It has to do with the fact that while Java *applications* are platform independent, the JVM on each platform is not.

If you want to run Java on a 64-bit platform, then you need a JVM compiled for that architecture. As far as I know, Intel 64-bit isn't the same as Intel 32-bit, both of which of course do not work with PPC (of any bits). It looks like in order to simplify their own development process, Apple chose to just support the latest architecture and forget the others. Which is a serious bummer.

[elppa]

It is not most.....it is all (at least in the United States) if they are AP. College courses are also focused on Java (to an extent).

I said many and I wouldn't assume I was talking about the US only, because I wasn't. ;)

Java is primarily used on the server side, so you might be using a site that uses java without you knowing about it (such as ebay).

In which case it is running on their servers on not your computer, so the original poster's argument would still stand.

Edit: I'd be annoyed if I brought a 64bit PowerMac G5. Those are such capable machines, yet seem to get treated as an after thought by Apple.

[compuguy1088]

It has nothing to do with how many "bits" your browser is. It has to do with the fact that while Java *applications* are platform independent, the JVM on each platform is not.

If you want to run Java on a 64-bit platform, then you need a JVM compiled for that architecture. As far as I know, Intel 64-bit isn't the same as Intel 32-bit, both of which of course do not work with PPC (of any bits). It looks like in order to simplify their own development process, Apple chose to just support the latest architecture and forget the others. Which is a serious bummer.

So the JVM is different. That should not prevent compiled code for Java 6 to run. This does prevent developers with 32-bit or PPC processors from using Java 6.

[Cromulent]

That makes absolutely NO SENSE! Java is platform independent the last time I checked. Something that is compiled on Windows for java 6 should work on a mac with the 64 bit build. The only limitation with using 64-bit java is that it will not work on a 32 bit browser (the same thing with 64-bit version on windows). What I do not get is that there is no real advantage of having java compiled for 64 bit. It would make more sense to of made it for 32 bit to allow all intel macs to take advantage of Java 6....

Was this aimed at me?

Do you understand the difference between a virtual machine and the real hardware that you are using? A virtual machine does not magically change the way software works at a fundamental level it mearly adds another layer that the software runs off. Thus bad design choices made when writing the application that would affect a 32 bit to 64 bit transition will still have a negative effect.

All a virtual machine is is another set of instructions that software uses which are then converted into native instructions for the real hardware. You could invent a whole new CPU architecture yourself if you wanted using virtual machines, in fact that is what one of the most famous computer science books does as a theoretical basis.

And just because Java source code is platform independent does not mean the Java implementation is platform independent.

[compuguy1088]

Was this aimed at me?

Do you understand the difference between a virtual machine and the real hardware that you are using? A virtual machine does not magically change the way software works at a fundamental level it mearly adds another layer that the software runs off. Thus bad design choices made when writing the application that would affect a 32 bit to 64 bit transition will still have a negative effect.

All a virtual machine is is another set of instructions that software uses which are then converted into native instructions for the real hardware. You could invent a whole new CPU architecture yourself if you wanted using virtual machines, in fact that is what one of the most famous computer science books does as a theoretical basis.

And just because Java source code is platform independent does not mean the Java implementation is platform independent.

Yes I understand, but if the VM is written to follow the standards of Java 6, then a simple java app (say some bouncing squares) should run in both Windows (32-bit VM) and in OSX (64-bit VM).

[therevolution]

So the JVM is different. That should not prevent compiled code for Java 6 to run. This does prevent developers with 32-bit or PPC processors from using Java 6.

Code compiled for Java 6 will not run on previous versions of Java. Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. I don't think you understand the difference between Java applications and the Java virtual machine (JVM).

[feri]

For the first time I can browse hotmail on safari. Is this related to the Java update? or .... what?

[macsmurf]

In which case it is running on their servers on not your computer, so the original poster's argument would still stand.


Yeah, but someone has to make those server-side applications. Personally, I would prefer to do it on a mac, but Apple haven't exactly been forthcoming on their future plans for Java.

[danielwsmithee]

I've just installed this on my MacBook. So it doesn't need a 64-bit Intel-based Mac. Just an Intel-based Mac. :confused:Most MacBooks are 64-bit. Only the original Core Duo Mac Books were not. All of the Core 2 Duos are.

[RaceTripper]

Yeah, but someone has to make those server-side applications. Personally, I would prefer to do it on a mac, but Apple haven't exactly been forthcoming on their future plans for Java.And not all apps are server side. I work on thick (Swing) clients that run on Windows and AIX, but I prefer to work on my Mac.

[elppa]

For the first time I can browse hotmail on safari. Is this related to the Java update? or .... what?

No.

Yeah, but someone has to make those server-side applications. Personally, I would prefer to do it on a mac, but Apple haven't exactly been forthcoming on their future plans for Java.

Fair enough, I can see your predicament.

IKrupps original point was:

At a consumer level

So I guess it comes down to the fact that not all consumers are developers, although obviously all developers are consumers. :D

[dogbait]

I like most Java devs can only say YYEEEEEEEESSSSS!

But seriously, Leopard only? That means our apps when compiled for Java 6 will be Leopard only?

BOOOOOOOOO!!!

[leRiCl]

Most MacBooks are 64-bit. Only the original Core Duo Mac Books were not. All of the Core 2 Duos are.

Far out.... My core duo macbook is only a year and a bit old.... and already starting to miss hardware requirements.... No, I don't have enough cash to buy a new one until next year, at least.

Then again Java 5 is enough... Hell, Java 4 is enough.

[e7e]

sorry for this stupid question, but how can i add this to eclipse?

[russellelly]

Please Apple, just let Sun do the JVM. This is a farce, and it's over a year late. And it does, directly, affect me as a Java Developer. Write Once Run Anywhere except on a PPC Mac :mad:

[milo]

This seems quite a shoddy update for “the best Java delivery platform on the planet (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/03/mac.osx.html)” (the words of Steve Jobs, not me).

Have I surmised the situation correctly:
[1] Intel only
[2] 64bit only
[3] Still need Java 5 to run all of your current Java applications.

It seems to me Apple gave up on Java a while ago and it will die a slow death on the platform for as long as they have control of the JVM.

Taking away any pro or anti Java arguments, it is still a mistake, here's why:
[1] Apple sells to education, many computer science courses teach Java.
[2] Apple sells to developers, many developers write Java.

I believe Apple will loose at least some hardware sales as a result of this. How much of an impact it will make is debatable. No doubt they will have already done the maths.

Apple's thought of the day appears to be wake up and smell the Cocoa.

And you didn't even mention that this new Java build doesn't run on 10.4.x.

Wow, what a debacle.

It looks like apple either hates Java and is practically trying to sabotage its use on Mac, or they're completely incompetent with it. Both possibilities are pretty ugly.

[thefunkymunky]

Why no 32-bit version?

[macsmurf]

It looks like apple either hates Java and is practically trying to sabotage its use on Mac, or they're completely incompetent with it. Both possibilities are pretty ugly.

Maybe Apple just love Linux and want to persuade as many Java developers to switch to that platform as humanely possibly. Giving back to the open-source community and all that ;)

[Iroganai]

I think

i) Apple just hates Java,

ii) Apple thinks their target demographic doesn't use Java apps,

iii) Apple thinks College students who need to do Java don't need Java 6

iv) Apple thinks most Java developers who use Macs have 64-bit intel Macs.

[mdriftmeyer]

You just got a dose of reality.

I told you it was dropped and you didn't listen to a damn thing.

Sit and spin on that one.

Apple is targeting 64 bit clean systems.

[Montserrat]

Needs 64 bit browser (Safari is 32 bit), so not sure when one would use this yet anyway, so don't worry, all those people with older macs, I'm sure it'll be available by the time Safari goes 64 bit

[e7e]

does this replace the Java DP's (8,9 etc..) btw?

[milo]

To All the Morons who told this Engineer to stick it about Java 6 on Tiger

You just got a dose of reality.

I told you it was dropped and you didn't listen to a damn thing.

Sit and spin on that one.

Apple is targeting 64 bit clean systems.

Wow, holy out of context, Batman.

[Ti_Poussin]

I'm glad I'm not a Java developers (nightmare ahead!). Sad that they screw so much with Java, hope they fix all this for the version 7. OS X is fun to develope except for:
- C#/.net (well duhhh, but still soo)
- Java

but I don't understand why Apple seem to dislike Java soo much. Maybe when you look at some Java applications from the Linux world you don't want that on your platform, Azureus for exemple, what a ressource ogre for what it does...

Seriously, people learning Java in University should change of University, many company begin to complain about that (segmentation fault anyone). In school, you should learn C/C++, OpenMP, assembly, prolog or lisp, and a scripting language at least. So you get a good base, after that, Java will be easy anyway.

[BBCWatcher]

To recap:

Intel only
64-bit only
Leopard only
Doesn't support Safari
Late
Backlevel (Sun released the _06 build (http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/ReleaseNotes.html#160_06) some time ago; this is _05)

This is awful. The software doesn't even run on machines Apple sold new mere months ago and still sells refurbished with full warranties (and optional AppleCare). And there are zero technical reasons for these limitations. Meanwhile, Apple is flush with cash and could actually put another developer or two on this project (or at least contract it out). And Apple didn't, putting the lie to Steve Jobs's own boasts about the Mac's alleged strengths as a Java platform.

[irun5k]

Per the April programming community index (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html):

Java is #1, and Objective-C is #38, behind almost everything. If you think Java is useless and nobody uses it, perhaps you should evaluate whether or not you have a true global view of the overall IT community. You might also try searching for "Java" vs. "Objective-C" on Monster, Dice, etc.

The facts say something different. They seem to say that nobody is using Objective-C.

I'm all for keeping the cobwebs out of the attic, so to speak. Vista carries around a lot of legacy baggage. However, the fact that I have a machine that has over a year's worth of AppleCare left that won't run Java 6 is a little hard to swallow. I built a digital picture frame years ago with an EPIA 5000 motherboard running Damn Small Linux, and it has been running Java 6 for the last year (I wrote the slideshow software in Java.)

If you still don't care about Java, maybe you will care about the next thing that Apple decides they are too good to support on your relatively new hardware.

[HLdan]

Yayyyy, new computer when I get home. Love downloading updates! Keep em comin'. :D

I agree, seems a bit weird but I get excited about downloading new updates too. :D

[Aaargh!]

Irrelevant to the point made. Just because it is running on a virtual machine and not directly on the real machine does not remove the common problems that software faces when moving from a 32 to 64 bit implementation.
Yes it does.

Java is completely agnostic to this. Java has always been available on 64-bit platforms and there is absolutely no reason that why an application wouldn't run on a 64-bit JVM.

The 'common problems' you speak of are simply non existent for java apps.

[Iroganai]

Most people who program for Mac use Objective-C,
and that's what Apple cares.

Thanks to the exposure of iPhone to the developers, Objective-C will become more popular, and that's what Apple cares.

I think Apple doesn't care what people in general use in programming.

[macsmurf]

Seriously, people learning Java in University should change of University, many company begin to complain about that (segmentation fault anyone). In school, you should learn C/C++, OpenMP, assembly, prolog or lisp, and a scripting language at least. So you get a good base, after that, Java will be easy anyway.

Using Java as a tool for learning object-oriented programming is fine. Learning different programming paradigms is what's important.

[elppa]

And you didn't even mention that this new Java build doesn't run on 10.4.x.

Wow, what a debacle.

It looks like apple either hates Java and is practically trying to sabotage its use on Mac, or they're completely incompetent with it. Both possibilities are pretty ugly.

Well Apple isn't incompetent, you don't amass billions of dollars through incompetence <insert your own joke here>, so that only leaves one explanation…

Maybe Apple just love Linux and want to persuade as many Java developers to switch to that platform as humanely possibly. Giving back to the open-source community and all that ;)

Or Solaris: The Most Advanced Operating System on the Planet.

Hyperbole aside, it is actually very good.

[Yuppi]

The reason applications that use SWT do not work is because they load a native library. I wrote a bug report about this and they blamed Eclipse. None of the current SWT components work as far as I know. And if it is really only 64 bit then I guess that is the problem.

[gmeddles]

Yes it does.

Java is completely agnostic to this. Java has always been available on 64-bit platforms and there is absolutely no reason that why an application wouldn't run on a 64-bit JVM.

The 'common problems' you speak of are simply non existent for java apps.

Coding a JVM has very little to do with the whole "Write once, run everywhere" mantra. The interpreted code is agnostic, but the JVM itself is written with C libs ( and maybe a spare piece of Cocoa junk) that is more dependent on sizes of address spaces and other C like concerns.

Since WAS, WLS, and jboss will likely never support running with a 1.6 JVM on OSX I don't see many java developers ever flocking to the platform to ply their trades. So this whole thing is rather pointless except for maybe the occasional mac zealot who wants to run eclipse outside of a VM. In the real world : public static final long JAVA = COBOL + 30 *(1000*60*60*24*365.25);

[irun5k]

Coding a JVM has very little to do with the whole "Write once, run everywhere" mantra. The interpreted code is agnostic, but the JVM itself is written with C libs ( and maybe a spare piece of Cocoa junk) that is more dependent on sizes of address spaces and other C like concerns.

Since WAS, WLS, and jboss will likely never support running with a 1.6 JVM on OSX I don't see many java developers ever flocking to the platform to ply their trades. So this whole thing is rather pointless except for maybe the occasional mac zealot who wants to run eclipse outside of a VM. In the real world : public static final long JAVA = COBOL + 30 *(1000*60*60*24*365.25);

It is worth noting that the SoyLatte project was successful in porting the BSD JDK (1.6) to OS X. It runs quite well in my experience but the big shortcoming is that it doesn't have the Swing - Cocoa bindings- it just utilizes X11.

At any Java tradeshow/conference/etc. you'll see lots of developers with MacBooks. However, it is a virtual guarantee (no pun intended) that they're all running Parallels or VMWare with XP/Vista. These aren't just the flunkies like me who paid a couple grand to get into the conference- presenters from Sun, Google, etc. will also be seen using MacBooks.

Is that really such bad company to keep? Friggin' engineers from Sun and Google?!? Don't know about you but I would LOVE to have these guys buying and using my stuff, if I were in...oh, I don't know... the software and hardware business.

[compuguy1088]

Code compiled for Java 6 will not run on previous versions of Java. Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. I don't think you understand the difference between Java applications and the Java virtual machine (JVM).

I know that java 5 code will not run on java 6...it has to be recompiled.

Edit: incorrect, it can run previous code. Alot of these arguments about the Java VM on leopard are getting kind of muddled.

I'm glad I'm not a Java developers (nightmare ahead!). Sad that they screw so much with Java, hope they fix all this for the version 7. OS X is fun to develope except for:
- C#/.net (well duhhh, but still soo)
- Java

but I don't understand why Apple seem to dislike Java soo much. Maybe when you look at some Java applications from the Linux world you don't want that on your platform, Azureus for exemple, what a ressource ogre for what it does...

Seriously, people learning Java in University should change of University, many company begin to complain about that (segmentation fault anyone). In school, you should learn C/C++, OpenMP, assembly, prolog or lisp, and a scripting language at least. So you get a good base, after that, Java will be easy anyway.

Unfourtuantley Java is more focused in the beginning of Computer Science, at least as far as I have gone...


Per the April programming community index (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html):

Java is #1, and Objective-C is #38, behind almost everything. If you think Java is useless and nobody uses it, perhaps you should evaluate whether or not you have a true global view of the overall IT community. You might also try searching for "Java" vs. "Objective-C" on Monster, Dice, etc.

The facts say something different. They seem to say that nobody is using Objective-C.

I'm all for keeping the cobwebs out of the attic, so to speak. Vista carries around a lot of legacy baggage. However, the fact that I have a machine that has over a year's worth of AppleCare left that won't run Java 6 is a little hard to swallow. I built a digital picture frame years ago with an EPIA 5000 motherboard running Damn Small Linux, and it has been running Java 6 for the last year (I wrote the slideshow software in Java.)

If you still don't care about Java, maybe you will care about the next thing that Apple decides they are too good to support on your relatively new hardware.

I've seen that java is #1, but most of the things that are used by most people are coded in different languages mainly C++ (and C). Note that C is #2.

Using Java as a tool for learning object-oriented programming is fine. Learning different programming paradigms is what's important.

Exactly why Java is used in the teaching of Computer Science. Though sometimes I regret that they do not teach C or C++ instead....

[RaceTripper]

I know that java 5 code will not run on java 6...it has to be recompiled.That is not correct.

If that were true Java applications that use 3rd party libraries would break all over the place. There would be hell to pay. Java 6 should run any bytecode compiled with any previous version of Java (although I'll admit I haven't run any Java 1 code recently that I'm aware of).

[Eduardo1971]

Ok please tell me this is just a bad coincidence. I just updated the new update; restarted and now Safari 3.1.1 (5525.18) has CRASHED FOUR TIMES!

I've never has Safari crash this often.:eek::(

[macsmurf]

Exactly why Java is used in the teaching of Computer Science. Though sometimes I regret that they do not teach C or C++ instead....

Well, at my university (where Bjarne Stroustrup (creator of C++) was educated once upon a time) Java is taught in the first programming course, and further on in a more advanced course, but that's about it. Other languages such as ML and prolog are touched upon in a more general purpose programming language course, and ML is used intermittently with java in a compiler course. C is used in an operating systems course where you mess around with the Linux kernel and scripting languages such as Python have been used in courses such as Distributed Systems and Bioinformatics (I used Ruby in that class, just for the fun of it). C++ is used extensively in a game development course. None of these languages are taught as such, except Java. You're expected to learn it on your own. Generally speaking, specific languages are used where it makes sense with a slight bias towards Java, if any language will do. Students will generally fall back on Java, but usually the professors are OK with whatever language you use.

It don't really see a need for courses such as C 101, Erlang 101, Scala 101 etc. in computer science. A computer scientist should be taught to pick up any language fast and it's IMHO better to teach the underlying concepts.

Are we off-topic yet? :)

[compuguy1088]

That is not correct.

If that were true Java applications that use 3rd party libraries would break all over the place. There would be hell to pay. Java 6 should run any bytecode compiled with any previous version of Java (although I'll admit I haven't run any Java 1 code recently that I'm aware of).

Previous post corrected. This is what I originally thought. Since this is true....why does Apple still have previous versions installed?

Well, at my university (where Bjarne Stroustrup (creator of C++) was educated once upon a time) Java is taught in the first programming course, and further on in a more advanced course, but that's about it. Other languages such as ML and prolog are touched upon in a more general purpose programming language course, and ML is used intermittently with java in a compiler course. C is used in an operating systems course where you mess around with the Linux kernel and scripting languages such as Python have been used in courses such as Distributed Systems and Bioinformatics (I used Ruby in that class, just for the fun of it). C++ is used extensively in a game development course. None of these languages are taught as such, except Java. You're expected to learn it on your own. Generally speaking, specific languages are used where it makes sense with a slight bias towards Java, if any language will do. Students will generally fall back on Java, but usually the professors are OK with whatever language you use.

It don't really see a need for courses such as C 101, Erlang 101, Scala 101 etc. in computer science. A computer scientist should be taught to pick up any language fast and it's IMHO better to teach the underlying concepts.

Are we off-topic yet? :)

From what your describing...the courses sound good :D

Also...we have reached the off-topic realm....after falling a very high cliff.....

[younker]

does this replace the Java DP's (8,9 etc..) btw?

Yes, it does, i installed this release and it automatically upgrade the DP version

[therevolution]

I know that java 5 code will not run on java 6...it has to be recompiled.

Edit: incorrect, it can run previous code. Alot of these arguments about the Java VM on leopard are getting kind of muddled.

You got me backwards. I said code compiled for Java 6 can't run on previous versions (like Java 5). Yes, you can go from earlier to later, say 5 to 6.

I think you're right though; I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. :p

[RaceTripper]

Previous post corrected. This is what I originally thought. Since this is true....why does Apple still have previous versions installed?Because, for example, I have to compile one of my projects with Java 5 to deploy on AIX where Java 6 isn't available. And it's only about a half year ago that I only had Java 1.4.2 available on that system.

I need to be able support Java 1.4.2, Java 5, and Java 6 JVMs, so I need all of them to build applications.

[irun5k]

Previous post corrected. This is what I originally thought. Since this is true....why does Apple still have previous versions installed?

Sometimes developers have to work around bugs in certain Java releases. So I might write some code to compensate for that bug in Apples 1.4.2 release. But then Java 5 came out and Apple fixed the bug. Until I update my application and you download and install it, you're running code that works around a non-existent bug (in Java 5), which as a result probably introduces new, unwanted behavior. But if you fall back to 1.4.2 you get the benefit of running it exactly like it used to run.

That is one reason, but there are several others. Even though the JDK is backwards compatible, you're still running with a new set of implementation classes from an updated JDK, which may change the way your app runs in a way that you don't like.

[compuguy1088]

Because, for example, I have to compile one of my projects with Java 5 to deploy on AIX where Java 6 isn't available. And it's only about a half year ago that I only had Java 1.4.2 available on that system.

I need to be able support Java 1.4.2, Java 5, and Java 6 JVMs, so I need all of them to build applications.

True....for a developer. The common user though may not need them all (I don't mind).

[Lord Zedd]

There better be a PPC version coming tomorrow, even if its 64-bit only.

[godrifle]

Yo, Apple, bring on Safari 3.1.2 64-bit! Oww! :p

[bljfour]

I had the developer preview of Java 6 installed. After installing the update today, my Java Prefences pane won't show up, Java webstart crashed immediately on startup.

Even the simplest of Java code won't run with Java 6 set as my default version. It was working when Java 6 preview was installed.

[northernmunky]

Couple of questions I hope someone more familiar with Java can answer:

1. In the Java prefs, is you select to use Java SE 6 as default it states "Java 6 is only available in 64-bit capable browsers...... Including Safari"

After a quick search, I can't find any 64-bit browsers available for Mac... doesnt this mean the Java 6 Applet runtime is currently completely useless to all of us?

2. Under Java Application Runtime Settings, shouldnt we change the order of the Java versions to be highest first? I.e. Java SE6 (64-bit), J2SE 5.0 (64bit), J2SE 5.0, J2SE 1.4.2?

3. If so why isn't that done by default?

4. Should it be wiser to just shut up and leave it alone? :D

[aront54]

This release is indeed targeted for professional developers more than hobbyists. While it is true than some professional developers need 1.6, despite all the whining to the contrary, the vast majority of Java developers are still on 1.5, for the following reason: almost anybody who develops enterprise applications is at best using 1.5, since the EJB3 appservers all run on 1.5. And the fact remains Java is #1 because it is number one in enterprise application development.

For those who claim Java applets will run just howdy doody in 1.6. I use a certain payroll company that requires you to run their client side Java app in IE. I foolishly upgraded my Windows to 1.6 and it broke the applet. Fortunately this was in Fusion so I was able to roll back to an earlier version of the VM.

It is for these reasons that Apple wisely decided to keep 1.5 standard and allow the choice of 1.6, which will be mostly used by those developers who need/want 1.6. For 99% of the rest of the Apple computer users, 1.5 is more than fine. Not just for broswer applets, but for full core Java apps: Azureus works great, and I think someone noted 1.6 breaks Azureus.

As for people who claim to be "professional developers" and are still using PowerPC machines, my jaw dropped on that one. If you are being paid to code in Java you are presumably being paid quite well. Your computer is your most important tool, and once you load up eclipse with a gazillion plugins, JBoss, the console log, Firefox and whatever else you need to get the job done, you sure as hell want the fastest computer out there with as much memory as possible. I tend to replace my Mac every two years (giving the older 'puter to one of my greatful kids) since the faster models increase my productivity significantly. Time is money, so I can make up the cost of a new model quite quickly by the improved performance. Hence Apple's decision to forego the minute number of developers on PPCs or 32 bit intel machines, is hardly going to lose Apple any market share. If you can't afford to upgrade your development box, you should be developing on an Asus Eee PC.

Finally for all the whiners who are crying about Apple not having a public road map for Java. Apple doesn't have a public road map for anything. I have tried Windows and Linux for development and Mac OS X wins hands down. I will continue to develop on Apple and enjoy my vastly increased productivity by doing so. If you don't like it, there are alternatives, so go use them and stop whining.

[compuguy1088]

Couple of questions I hope someone more familiar with Java can answer:

1. In the Java prefs, is you select to use Java SE 6 as default it states "Java 6 is only available in 64-bit capable browsers...... Including Safari"

After a quick search, I can't find any 64-bit browsers available for Mac... doesnt this mean the Java 6 Applet runtime is currently completely useless to all of us?

2. Under Java Application Runtime Settings, shouldnt we change the order of the Java versions to be highest first? I.e. Java SE6 (64-bit), J2SE 5.0 (64bit), J2SE 5.0, J2SE 1.4.2?

3. If so why isn't that done by default?

4. Should it be wiser to just shut up and leave it alone? :D

For Java Applets, Java 6 will not work with 32-bit browsers. It should work with regular java programs (i.e Neooffice, Azeurus).

[Headrush69]

Yo, Apple, bring on Safari 3.1.2 64-bit! Oww! :p

Didn't you hear, coming in soon to be released 10.5.3. ;)

[aLoC]

The most important reason to have Java is to make OS X server a viable platform. Servers are usually more powerful boxes, hence Intel 64 only. Apple probably don't want Java apps on the client.

[RaceTripper]

True....for a developer. The common user though may not need them all (I don't mind).True, but having them all just costs disk space, and not really all that much in the grand scheme of things. Probably simpler to just have them all.

[compuguy1088]

This release is indeed targeted for professional developers more than hobbyists. While it is true than some professional developers need 1.6, despite all the whining to the contrary, the vast majority of Java developers are still on 1.5, for the following reason: almost anybody who develops enterprise applications is at best using 1.5, since the EJB3 appservers all run on 1.5. And the fact remains Java is #1 because it is number one in enterprise application development.
(MEGA SNIP)

In that case, you would have both Java 1.5 and Java 6 as well installed to work with both. From what I recall Java 6 has some performance improvements.

[aront54]

In that case, you would have both Java 1.5 and Java 6 as well installed to work with both. From what I recall Java 6 has some performance improvements.

Which is exactly the option Apple is providing, with the wise move that Java 5 is default. And yes, Java 6 does have performance improvements but as I said that isn't really much use for people using JBoss or Websphere or....

[kbotc]

I haven't gone through everything, but...

[Mjolnir:~/Desktop/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6.0/Resources/JavaPluginCocoa.bundle/Contents/MacOS ] nick% file JavaPluginCocoa
JavaPluginCocoa: Mach-O universal binary with 3 architectures
JavaPluginCocoa (for architecture i386): Mach-O bundle i386
JavaPluginCocoa (for architecture ppc7400): Mach-O bundle ppc
JavaPluginCocoa (for architecture x86_64): Mach-O 64-bit bundle x86_64
[Mjolnir:~/Desktop/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6.0/Resources/JavaPluginCocoa.bundle/Contents/MacOS ] nick% cd /Users/nick/Desktop/JavaVM.framework/Versions/A
[Mjolnir:~/Desktop/JavaVM.framework/Versions/A ] nick% file JavaVM
JavaVM: Mach-O universal binary with 4 architectures
JavaVM (for architecture ppc7400): Mach-O dynamically linked shared library ppc
JavaVM (for architecture ppc64): Mach-O 64-bit dynamically linked shared library ppc64
JavaVM (for architecture i386): Mach-O dynamically linked shared library i386
JavaVM (for architecture x86_64): Mach-O 64-bit dynamically linked shared library x86_64


(I extracted everything to my desktop with Pacifist and went through the major binaries). They're still fat binaries. Haven't checked if they can run yet, but really... common Apple.

Yea, the java command is still x86_64, but the rest of the installable stuff still seems to be fat.

[northernmunky]

For Java Applets, Java 6 will not work with 32-bit browsers. It should work with regular java programs (i.e Neooffice, Azeurus).

I think I get it now... just realised Azureus now wont run, (although Neooffice will) with the default set to Java 6... set it back to J2SE 5.0 and it works fine.

[macsmurf]

Finally for all the whiners who are crying about Apple not having a public road map for Java. Apple doesn't have a public road map for anything.


iPhone API? Apple seemed to be very public about it being released in june.


I have tried Windows and Linux for development and Mac OS X wins hands down. I will continue to develop on Apple and enjoy my vastly increased productivity by doing so. If you don't like it, there are alternatives, so go use them and stop whining.

OK, Windows is painful, but what are the benefits of OS X over Linux, when it comes to Java development?

[irun5k]

This release is indeed targeted for professional developers more than hobbyists. While it is true than some professional developers need 1.6, despite all the whining to the contrary, the vast majority of Java developers are still on 1.5, for the following reason: almost anybody who develops enterprise applications is at best using 1.5, since the EJB3 appservers all run on 1.5. And the fact remains Java is #1 because it is number one in enterprise application development.

Not sure where you've been, but I've been using Java 6 for well over a year now at work and home. The performance is solid, built in debug tools are strong (jmap/jhat) and if you deploy Swing apps on Vista, you really want to be using Java 6. The Windows impl of Java 6 has a new, more native way of rendering Swing widgets. In this process I also naturally started using some 1.6 specific API's. This is when I stopped supporting OS X as a deployment platform.

While it is true that some monolithic companies may be stuck at Java 1.4.2, there are plenty of smaller companies that have been consuming the latest and greatest for quite some time.

P.S. As soon as Java 6 update N comes out, I'll be switching to it. I plan on ditching JGoodies L&F on my non-Windows deployment platforms and switching to Nimbus.

[Kar98]

This upgrade is of no interest to end-users, unless if you happen to program in Java.

Pretty much. If you didn't miss it, you don't have to fret ;)

[mauldus]

This is actually small update as 1.6.0_04 has been out for a while for developers, though it's much anticipated for my team. Hopefully the JAX-WS utilities are working now. I had to open a linux vm just to use wsimport.

sorry for this stupid question, but how can i add this to eclipse?

Open Eclipse, Preferences. Under Java, click on Installed JREs. Click add and enter:
JRE type: MacOS X VM
JRE name: JVM 1.6
JRE home directory: /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6/Home
Click OK
Select desired JRE
Enjoy

[Elektronkind]

I thought Leopard was supposed to let you run all 64 bit software on a 32 bit cpu? I distinctly remember Steve-o making a big hoopla about that during a conference.

You must have heard wrong.

64bit programs have to run on a 64bit kernel (OS)... which in turn requires the underlying hardware architecture to be 64bit.

/dale

[rtdunham]

Your MacBook is a Core 2 Duo surely thats a 64-bit processor?

my 2.0GHz Macbook is a Core Duo according to "about this mac" in the finder.

[mrtekkid]

iPhoto seems snappier... :D

[lostfan916]

Did anyone else get an error when installing?

Said it couldn't be verified and I tried installing again and it was just still at "configuring installation"

Downloading it from Apple.com now....

[AidenShaw]

Original posting said: "The update requires Mac OS X 10.5.2 or later, and a 64-bit Intel-based Mac. "

Sounds like a decent update but how come there's no 32-bit version for early Intel Mac Mini machines...

Because Apple wants you to buy new machines, of course :p .

Apple's just put the 32-bit Yonah systems into the PowerPC "deprecated" heap, no longer supported with new stuff.

People attacked me when I predicted this would happen....

[liberty4all]

Java 1.6 for other Macs, see:
http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/

[compuguy1088]

Because Apple wants you to buy new machines, of course :p .

Apple's just put the 32-bit Yonah systems into the PowerPC "deprecated" heap, no longer supported with new stuff.

People attacked me when I predicted this would happen....

It is pretty sad that the core processors did not have x64 bit support. If I recall, AMD had that capability in there Desktop and Mobile processors (even some semparons).

Java 1.6 for other Macs, see:
http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/

Already been posted....it has the limitation of not having SWING...only X11 support, otherwise it is perfectly working Java.

[bommai]

Anything Core 2 Duo or above is 64-bit Intel (IA64).

Anything Core Duo is 32-bit Intel (IA32/x86).

Anything Gx (G5, G4 G3) is PowerPC (PPC).

You can check by going to the Apple Logo at the top left and clicking "About This Mac" to see what you've got.

Small correction in the nomenclature. IA64 is used for the Itanium Architecture, not the x86 based 64-bit architecture. In fact, the 64-bit extension for the x86 architecture was created by AMD. That is what Intel is using now. IA64 is an entirely different architecture that intel created along with HP for the itanium which did not have much success.

[MrCrowbar]

Dang, I'm developing in Java on my Macbook and it's a Core (1) Duo (32 bit). :mad:
"SE" stands for standard edition, right? I know "ME" is mobile and "CE" is corporate edition.

[javierbds]

At last, I have the reason that stopped me from buying Leopard removed ...
And to those that say Java is only for server, and that only Java 5 is important ... Recheck the Java desktop space ... If you think Cocoa is not going to follow the Java 6 path (bye (non-G5) PCC, bye 32-bit for new APIs) get ready for more surprises ...

One can understand 32-bit being left behind, but many early Intel adopters are going to be pissed ...

[OS X Dude]

Why did we have to wait 18 months after Windows users got it??

Surely porting it to OS X doesn't take that long

[javierbds]

Why did we have to wait 18 months after Windows users got it??

Surely porting it to OS X doesn't take that long
Well, (Fuller?) SoyLatte showed that, except for Aqua, porting is not so hard.
I *guess* Apple is mid-way through a UI rework that did not make it to Leopard ... Either that or Objective-C has Java-envy :rolleyes: (now with GC ...) or some political moves that involve stuff for conspiracy buffs (iPhone is got to be involved here too) ...
People under-appreciate the work Sun has put into MS's platforms too

Azureus works great, and I think someone noted 1.6 breaks Azureus.

I guess (but I haven´t checked lately) this problem is SWT-Eclipse related ...

[knightlie]

As a consumer level user I can't think of a single site that uses Java that I visit on a regular basis. Not my banking site, not my credit cards sites, no forums, not any of the social networking sites. The only site I get the Java coffee cup loading indication is on one old speed test site. And I sure as h*ll don't know of any that use Java 6.0. This sounds to me like another one of those Geek Squad things that only a few weirdos need for online games and such. Again, as a consumer level, home user I just don't see the need for Java on the OS X platform.

As one of those "wierdos" whose University diploma is entirely Java based, I'm happy that Java is being maintained on OSX. I don't give a rats arse what you think about it.


My Core Duo iMac doesn't have the update, which means it's Core 2 Duo only. That sucks, and I think it's a pretty dumb decision on Apple's part. so if I need to use Java 6, I've got to go and get my MacBook and use that instead of my iMac? Stupid. Really stupid.

Seriously, people learning Java in University should change of University, many company begin to complain about that (segmentation fault anyone). In school, you should learn C/C++, OpenMP, assembly, prolog or lisp, and a scripting language at least. So you get a good base, after that, Java will be easy anyway.

Wrong way round. Java will give you a better grounding than C/C++ (I assume you are joking about assembly). Any programmer worth employing won't have much trouble moving between a lot of languages - Java, C++, Delphi, JavaScript, PHP, for example - as they are structurally the same. And most scripting languages I've used, like PHP and Javascript, are virtually identical to Java.

[leRiCl]

And most scripting languages I've used, like PHP and Javascript, are virtually identical to Java.

Javascript is closer to Lisp than Java. Sure its got the same syntax, but you can do much more cool stuff with Javascript (Cool doesn't mean useful, but cool nonetheless, in the geeky way). Javascript can have nested functions and define new functions, new classes at run time, etc...

Btw, I started learning Java before C, I wish it was the other way around.... *sneeze [memory leak]*.

[gmcoates]

Screw Apple.

I have been Mac user for 10 years and I am now switching to aomething else with support. I am learning Java development and needed this so to Solaris or Ubuntu.

Apple has really dropped the ball here. :mad:

[philips]

It looks like apple either hates Java and is practically trying to sabotage its use on Mac, or they're completely incompetent with it. Both possibilities are pretty ugly.

Considering that Apple concentrates on end-users and Java on desktops used mostly by developers, it is obvious that it will be very very low priority.

Also, from reading mail-lists about porting JRE/JDK to Linux and can only relay frustration with all the hacks JVM is filled with and all the platform dependencies making java RT library total mess. Add here all the dumb legalese Sun forces on porters - you get the out-come we have in MacOS: Sun doesn't care much about Java's port of MacOS (Sun is server company) and for Apple it is way too niche product.

[Eraserhead]

Needs 64 bit browser (Safari is 32 bit), so not sure when one would use this yet anyway, so don't worry, all those people with older macs, I'm sure it'll be available by the time Safari goes 64 bit

a) Are there any 64 bit browsers for Mac? (IE and Firefox are 64 bit for Windows)
b) I think Apple will be making Final Cut and most of their other apps 64 bit before Safari (though I know they have different teams for both).

Java is #1, and Objective-C is #38, behind almost everything.

Thats a little unfair, Objective-C is heavily used on the Mac. However I agree Java should be be supported better by Apple.

After a quick search, I can't find any 64-bit browsers available for Mac... doesnt this mean the Java 6 Applet runtime is currently completely useless to all of us?

Yes.

(I extracted everything to my desktop with Pacifist and went through the major binaries). They're still fat binaries. Haven't checked if they can run yet, but really... common Apple.

Yea, the java command is still x86_64, but the rest of the installable stuff still seems to be fat.

:eek: WTF are they doing?

Apple's just put the 32-bit Yonah systems into the PowerPC "deprecated" heap, no longer supported with new stuff.

Wow, so not only do you have to buy a new OS (which at least is only software, and does have other advantages). You also have to buy a new machine every 18 months to be supported by Apple :rolleyes:. That is lame and there is no defending it. Frankly in 2008 I expect my machine to last 4-5 years before needing replacement whatever OS it is running. Though I do buy a fair bit of software along the way for my machine.

Sun doesn't care much about Java's port of MacOS (Sun is server company) and for Apple it is way too niche product.

I'm not sure thats true about Sun, though granted its seems to be true for Apple, though given Java is the #1 used language it seems more than a little foolish on Apple's part.

[RaceTripper]

Dang, I'm developing in Java on my Macbook and it's a Core (1) Duo (32 bit). :mad:
"SE" stands for standard edition, right? I know "ME" is mobile and "CE" is corporate edition.Yes, SE means standard edition.

There is no "CE. I think you mean "EE" which is a superset of SE (i.e. requires SE) and stands for Enterprise Edition. It basically adds all the server side (web, middleware, backend) APIs.

[e7e]

Open Eclipse, Preferences. Under Java, click on Installed JREs. Click add and enter:
JRE type: MacOS X VM
JRE name: JVM 1.6
JRE home directory: /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6/Home
Click OK
Select desired JRE
Enjoy

thank you for the tip. To bad this only supports 64 bit :(

[137489]

I know I am going to get a lot of criticism here (heck, I usually do on these posts), but.....

Java is great and widely used... yes and probably will be for a long time due to how hard it is to rewrite entire applications in something else, and also how many devices (especially portable) support Java.

However, in the companies I have worked at, they are beginning to dump Java due to the abilities of .NET, and the complexity of trying to do anything in Java. Now I know that does not help those us us who have come to love Mac, as .NET (for the moment) is primarily Windows base, and everyone knows that Linux and Unix make better servers (since they keep running without periodic reboots). I do not know too many companies that have Apple servers, but I am sure they are just as reliable due to the Unix understructure.

There has been an unconfirmed rumor I heard from MS-MACBU. While they refuse to speculate and release anything about the future; now that VBA is going away, even on the Windows side, and Visual Studio 6 support ended this year (ticked off a lot of people who still have VB6 apps running). They are looking to do more with .NET, which may even mean bringing .NET to office scripting on the Mac as well.

As I look out on the job boards, I still see Java positions; but they are becoming less frequent (maybe because of my geographic area), and more and more .NET, or C++ jobs listed.

I tried learning Java, but since the company I used to be at is dumping it and the new company I am at uses Visual Studio (6 and .NET), my Java learning has been put on the back burner. I still have my books, so I may pick it up as a hobbyist.

Personally, I wished Python would take off more. Very easy language to learn, very capable.

Oh and a reply to one of the posts I seen earlier - unless you plan on doing application/server development as your career; I agree it is good to learn the basics of many languages and learn scripting. Most I/T shops these days are buying off the shelf applications and need people to do add-ons or scripting to automate them. Sorry, I have been in I/T for 20+ years and that is where we are headed.

[Tattoo]

Anyone have an idea why they didn't also release this for the PPC?

The PPC has been left to the "Dark Side" - Come to the light my son :p

[Eraserhead]

However, in the companies I have worked at, they are beginning to dump Java due to the abilities of .NET, and the complexity of trying to do anything in Java.

Not trying to be a troll, I'm genuinely curious, why is .NET better than Java? I've personally found .NET is very difficult to work with. Feel free to go into technical details if needed.

as .NET (for the moment) is primarily Windows base,

Come on, that's like saying Cocoa (for the moment) is primarily Mac based.

They are looking to do more with .NET, which may even mean bringing .NET to office scripting on the Mac as well.

Interesting, unfortunately I suspect it'll be Windows only however, that is Microsoft's way really.

As I look out on the job boards, I still see Java positions; but they are becoming less frequent (maybe because of my geographic area), and more and more .NET, or C++ jobs listed.

Interesting, especially for C++ as it was around before Java.

[Tattoo]

I know I am going to get a lot of criticism here (heck, I usually do on these posts), but.....

Java is great and widely used... yes and probably will be for a long time due to how hard it is to rewrite entire applications in something else, and also how many devices (especially portable) support Java.

However, in the companies I have worked at, they are beginning to dump Java due to the abilities of .NET, and the complexity of trying to do anything in Java. Now I know that does not help those us us who have come to love Mac, as .NET (for the moment) is primarily Windows base, and everyone knows that Linux and Unix make better servers (since they keep running without periodic reboots). I do not know too many companies that have Apple servers, but I am sure they are just as reliable due to the Unix understructure.

There has been an unconfirmed rumor I heard from MS-MACBU. While they refuse to speculate and release anything about the future; now that VBA is going away, even on the Windows side, and Visual Studio 6 support ended this year (ticked off a lot of people who still have VB6 apps running). They are looking to do more with .NET, which may even mean bringing .NET to office scripting on the Mac as well.

As I look out on the job boards, I still see Java positions; but they are becoming less frequent (maybe because of my geographic area), and more and more .NET, or C++ jobs listed.

I tried learning Java, but since the company I used to be at is dumping it and the new company I am at uses Visual Studio (6 and .NET), my Java learning has been put on the back burner. I still have my books, so I may pick it up as a hobbyist.

Personally, I wished Python would take off more. Very easy language to learn, very capable.

Oh and a reply to one of the posts I seen earlier - unless you plan on doing application/server development as your career; I agree it is good to learn the basics of many languages and learn scripting. Most I/T shops these days are buying off the shelf applications and need people to do add-ons or scripting to automate them. Sorry, I have been in I/T for 20+ years and that is where we are headed.

Your post is sooooo wrong. It makes no sense! Your confused and lost in translation. Please stop posting bad info.















Just kidding..........:p
Just giving you some false "criticism" :D

[gmcoates]

Your post is sooooo wrong. It makes no sense! Your confused and lost in translation. Please stop posting bad info.

Just kidding..........:p
Just giving you some false "criticism" :D

Is Java dying out or not, can someone shed some real light on this.

If it is, fair enough that Apple drops it.
If not, why didn't they support, what must be millions of PPC machines?

[Eraserhead]

Is Java dying out or not, can someone shed some real light on this.

My personal opinion is that probably Java>.NET, but some businesses are so obsessed with Microsoft they are going to use .NET even with its flaws (or they don't know any better). As the world is becoming less obsessed by Microsoft solutions Java and other alternatives will become more popular than .NET than they are at the moment.

To be honest though I doubt any major language will really die as its used in existing code, it'll just be used less. FORTRAN and COBOL are still used extensively today for example.

However I'm not a business coder, and haven't really used .NET or Java enough to have an informed opinion. I think if shervieux can come up with some evidence of why .NET > Java we can hopefully get some interesting information.

[gmcoates]

I am a .NET developer in a place that (for some reason) would not dare try to save some money using Open-Source technology. NBo matter what is has to be Microsoft. .NET is good but does have a lot of problems.

But I still intend to learn and work with Java.

Wanted to on my Mac but the support is poor, even with the latest release that is late and only on part of the platform.

Looks like the best thing I can do is buy a good Solaris laptop.

I would like to hear any ideas on Java and .NET.

[Mackan]

About damn time Apple. Aiming for a 24 months porting time when Java 7 comes out? Highly disappointing. Let Sun do the port instead.

[Reason077]

I've just installed this on my MacBook. So it doesn't need a 64-bit Intel-based Mac. Just an Intel-based Mac. :confused:

Most MacBooks are 64-bit. Only the very first (Core Duo) generation of MacBooks were not 64-bit.

[AidenShaw]

Java>.NET


Isn't comparing Java to .NET about the same as comparing Objective-C to Cocoa?

One is a language, the other is an OS framework.

I can use C++, C#, Visual Basic or other languages to write applications in the .NET framework.


"Visual C# C# is a simple, type-safe, object oriented, general-purpose programming language. Visual C# provides code-focused developers with powerful tools and language support to build rich, connected web and client applications on the .NET Framework."

"Visual C++ Visual C++ provides a powerful and flexible development environment for creating Microsoft Windows–based and Microsoft .NET–based applications. It also enables developers to build Web applications, smart-client Windows-based applications, and solutions for thin-client and smart-client mobile devices."

"Visual Basic Visual Basic is a tool for productively building type-safe and object-oriented applications. It allows developers to create a wide range of Windows, Web, mobile, and Office applications built on the .NET Framework."

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualc/default.aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/default.aspx


The .NET framework is richer than the JRE environment, and you get an application that looks and acts like other applications on the PC. Most Java apps, on the other hand, look like something from an alien world and also behave like they're alien.

[liberty4all]

Umm, because Java is slow and it sucks?! ;-)

Because SUN did not bother to port it, but instead only cares about it on iPhone?!

Someone interview SUN and ask THEM!!!!


Why did we have to wait 18 months after Windows users got it??

Surely porting it to OS X doesn't take that long

[liberty4all]

Economics -- they want you to upgrade your Macs... *sigh*



Is Java dying out or not, can someone shed some real light on this.

If it is, fair enough that Apple drops it.
If not, why didn't they support, what must be millions of PPC machines?

[nilk]

Maybe Apple just love Linux and want to persuade as many Java developers to switch to that platform as humanely possibly. Giving back to the open-source community and all that ;)

That must be it. I'm a developer who uses Java a lot and Linux is currently my preferred environment for that because of how long it takes new Java versions to reach OS X.

[Eraserhead]

Isn't comparing Java to .NET about the same as comparing Objective-C to Cocoa?

I was assuming we were comparing the Java frameworks to the .NET frameworks. I know you can use multiple languages in the .NET framework but I'm not convinced that's an advantage.

[dahlio]

Would have been nice if it fixed the Leopard Spaces issue.....

[hayesk]

Umm, because Java is slow and it sucks?! ;-)

Because SUN did not bother to port it, but instead only cares about it on iPhone?!

Someone interview SUN and ask THEM!!!!

You hit the nail on the head. People can complain all they want about Apple not doing their thing, but if Sun wants Java to be a write once, deploy everywhere language/framework, why the heck didn't they do a good MacOS X version instead of making Apple port it?

If you are a Java developer you really have to ask yourself why you bother developing in Java at all if even Sun themselves don't stand behind their own mantra.

[morespce54]

...I'd be annoyed if I brought a 64bit PowerMac G5. Those are such capable machines, yet seem to get treated as an after thought by Apple.

And so expensive too. If they only support Intel regarding the 64Bits, I guess that means that PPC (PowerMac) 64Bits will never really find any useful 64b applications from the Apple (or Java from Apple at least) point of view...

[compuguy1088]

I know I am going to get a lot of criticism here (heck, I usually do on these posts), but.....

Java is great and widely used... yes and probably will be for a long time due to how hard it is to rewrite entire applications in something else, and also how many devices (especially portable) support Java.

However, in the companies I have worked at, they are beginning to dump Java due to the abilities of .NET, and the complexity of trying to do anything in Java. Now I know that does not help those us us who have come to love Mac, as .NET (for the moment) is primarily Windows base, and everyone knows that Linux and Unix make better servers (since they keep running without periodic reboots). I do not know too many companies that have ....

Though Linux and OSX can use .NET (sorta), through Mono.....

Umm, because Java is slow and it sucks?! ;-)

Because SUN did not bother to port it, but instead only cares about it on iPhone?!

Someone interview SUN and ask THEM!!!!

It's slow from the fact that Java is platform independent; code has to be run in a virtual machine, hence why it will be slower. Java 6 did bring some performance increases, and some tweaks in GUI libraries (don't recall exactly what..).

[dmsmith]

I help develop BibleDesktop (http://www.crosswire.org/bibledesktop) in Java. Currently all development is Java 1.4.2 which allows it to run on MacOSX 10.3. We briefly went to Java 1.5, but there was too much of an outcry from Tiger users. So we reverted.

Our policy is to support the current OS and the prior OS level and perhaps earlier.

But, Java 6 is different as it is not available for my Intel Mac Core Duo, which is barely 2 years old. And it is not available for the entire base of Leopard users. So this complicates when we can move to Java 6.

Of course, we could use reflection to make enhanced features available to Java 6 users. But that doesn't seem quite fair.

It is precisely the extra features that Apple added that I'd like to use:

better dock integration
applescript to hide instead of close the app
applescript to speak a selection of text

[Mackan]

You hit the nail on the head. People can complain all they want about Apple not doing their thing, but if Sun wants Java to be a write once, deploy everywhere language/framework, why the heck didn't they do a good MacOS X version instead of making Apple port it?

If you are a Java developer you really have to ask yourself why you bother developing in Java at all if even Sun themselves don't stand behind their own mantra.

Hm, I have heard that Apple told Sun they would do the porting themselves.

[RaceTripper]

I remember in the 90s when Apple abandoned their flavor of the week OpenDoc and said they would follow Sun Java three months behind (and who knows what failed OS of the month they were on at the time). That quickly became 2 years behind, 5 years behind, etc. Apple and their developer program became such a mess that I abandoned Mac altogether around '97 or so, (after having been with it since Mac OS 3, and in the developer program for 5-6 years). I switched to the Solaris and Windows platforms.

I only came back to the Mac last year when I bought my MBP and started developing on it again earlier this year (when the camera-enabled device restriction was relaxed and I was finally able to bring it to work).

I have yet to embrace any development that is specifically Mac-centric (i.e. Obj-C, Carbon, AppleScript, etc) and will think hard before I do.

[137489]

My personal opinion is that probably Java>.NET, but some businesses are so obsessed with Microsoft they are going to use .NET even with its flaws (or they don't know any better). As the world is becoming less obsessed by Microsoft solutions Java and other alternatives will become more popular than .NET than they are at the moment.

To be honest though I doubt any major language will really die as its used in existing code, it'll just be used less. FORTRAN and COBOL are still used extensively today for example.

However I'm not a business coder, and haven't really used .NET or Java enough to have an informed opinion. I think if shervieux can come up with some evidence of why .NET > Java we can hopefully get some interesting information.


1. We are in a 85-90% MS world when it comes to large business platforms, so .NET is a good fit over some other language.
2. Even the owners of JavaLobby (and advocasy group for Java) admits they also user .NET because it is powerful.
3. Many companies are jumping on the C# (C-sharp) bandwagon due to its power over C++ in the Visual Studio world.


Speaking of which, they are ready for me to headback to my VBS and SQL training.

[gnasher729]

Irrelevant to the point made. Just because it is running on a virtual machine and not directly on the real machine does not remove the common problems that software faces when moving from a 32 to 64 bit implementation.

In this case, it does. You don't have to make any changes to your word documents if you use a 32 bit or 64 bit version of Word, and you don't have to make changes to Photoshop files if you use a 32 bit or 64 bit version of Photoshop. You don't make changes to a Java application whether the VM uses PowerPC or Intel code, and you don't make changes whether it uses 32 bit or 64 bit code.

The only time where you have to make changes if you added code written in C or C++ to your Java application; in that case you obviously have to provide 64 bit code to work together with a 64 bit virtual machine.

[Infrared]

It is lucky that Java isn't used widespread...

You think?

-->

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

[Eraserhead]

1. We are in a 85-90% MS world when it comes to large business platforms, so .NET is a good fit over some other language.

Sure from that perspective it makes sense, however it seems .NET is an utterly flawed framework (source (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6330927813/m/917004181931)), so why are people using it?

EDIT: So you don't have to read through the whole thread here's my favourite comment:


My personal favorite is that there are plenty of *new* 3.0/3.5 APIs that aren't using the 2.0 generic collections. Instead they roll their own with names like MyFooBarTypeCollection. Of course, this class is actually lacking a bunch of useful functionality that you'd expect to find, so you end up either having to write that functionality yourself, or you copy to/from a better collection.

You simply don't see this in javaland. Everyone uses the standard collections. So all your collection handling code works fine with them.


Basically a collection is an array with faster access to the elements in it. And that .NET's support for collections is so poor that the .NET developers making other parts of the API make their own versions of them.


2. Even the owners of JavaLobby (and advocasy group for Java) admits they also user .NET because it is powerful.
3. Many companies are jumping on the C# (C-sharp) bandwagon due to its power over C++ in the Visual Studio world.

Can you provide a source/example of C#/.NET's "power" which isn't accessible in Java and C++?

[amiroo79]

I downloaded it last night. But, my computer would not let me select it to install it. Any word on anyone having that same issue? I have a new MacBook.:confused:

[aront54]

iPhone API? Apple seemed to be very public about it being released in june.

This is the one exception that proves the rule.

OK, Windows is painful, but what are the benefits of OS X over Linux, when it comes to Java development?

Given the set of tools I use for development (Eclipse, Ant, JBoss) I find the turnaround from code to deploy/test much faster on Mac OS X than on Linux. Plus little thing (like the console tool) add to my productivity. Your mileage may vary, but it works great for me and apparently many other Java developers. I am not trying to convince anyone to use a Mac as a development platform. My only point is that anyone who doesn't like it has alternatives, and should stop whining and just use those alternatives.

[aront54]

Not sure where you've been, but I've been using Java 6 for well over a year now at work and home.

<snip>.

I didn't say nobody is using Java 6. I said the vast majority of Java developers aren't. The vast majority of Java developers work in larger organizations which tend to be much more conservative about moving over to newer platforms. Hell, Java 1.5 is considered new in many of these places.

As for those worrying about Java disappearing: the fact is that the smartest move Sun ever did was to make Java open source. Java still overwhelms .NET in corporate development despite the corporate love affair with Microsoft (which is now more like a bad marriage - CIO's feel stuck with Microsoft, not happy about it). Many people forget that IBM still dominates the corporate world, and IBM is a bigger Java shop than Sun.

By making Java open source, Sun is creating an even larger pool of developers. Remember, until now (and even now) installing Java on Linux is a bit of a pain, particularly in the Debian derivate distributions, including Ubuntu, because of the license issues. This goes away in Java 7 and you will be able to apt-get the Sun sdk from the regular repositories. So Java will become even more ubiquitous in Linux.

Finally, for those who say Java is slow, you obviously are still thinking about Java browser applets not Java applications, and certainly not server side applications.

[macsmurf]

This is the one exception that proves the rule.


Be that as it may, my point is that where this policy might create a lot of free hype among consumers, it does Apple no good in the business market.


Given the set of tools I use for development (Eclipse, Ant, JBoss) I find the turnaround from code to deploy/test much faster on Mac OS X than on Linux.


Why is that? All of those tools are available on Linux.


Plus little thing (like the console tool) add to my productivity.


I'm guessing the console tool is something OS X specific, that I've never heard of. Could you be a bit more specific?


Your mileage may vary, but it works great for me and apparently many other Java developers. I am not trying to convince anyone to use a Mac as a development platform. My only point is that anyone who doesn't like it has alternatives, and should stop whining and just use those alternatives.

Which is exactly what people do, but I for one have a hard time understanding Apple's policy when it comes to communicating with it's customers.

[macsmurf]

By making Java open source, Sun is creating an even larger pool of developers. Remember, until now (and even now) installing Java on Linux is a bit of a pain, particularly in the Debian derivate distributions, including Ubuntu, because of the license issues. This goes away in Java 7 and you will be able to apt-get the Sun sdk from the regular repositories. So Java will become even more ubiquitous in Linux.


Huh? Try


sudo apt-get install sun-java6-jdk

[nilk]

Given the set of tools I use for development (Eclipse, Ant, JBoss) I find the turnaround from code to deploy/test much faster on Mac OS X than on Linux. Plus little thing (like the console tool) add to my productivity.

I do Java development in Windows, OS X, and Linux on a regular basis. And I use Eclipse. I haven't found anything really that makes Java development faster on any one particular platform. Could you elaborate on what it is that you find faster?

Which console tool are you talking about? Is it only available for the Mac? Or has features on the Mac that the other platforms don't?

For development, I personally prefer to have a UNIX environment than a Windows environment, but between the OS X and Linux there isn't that much of a difference with regards to Java as far as I know.

[137489]

I help develop BibleDesktop (http://www.crosswire.org/bibledesktop) in Java. Currently all development is Java 1.4.2 which allows it to run on MacOSX 10.3. We briefly went to Java 1.5, but there was too much of an outcry from Tiger users. So we reverted.

Our policy is to support the current OS and the prior OS level and perhaps earlier.

But, Java 6 is different as it is not available for my Intel Mac Core Duo, which is barely 2 years old. And it is not available for the entire base of Leopard users. So this complicates when we can move to Java 6.

Of course, we could use reflection to make enhanced features available to Java 6 users. But that doesn't seem quite fair.

It is precisely the extra features that Apple added that I'd like to use:

better dock integration
applescript to hide instead of close the app
applescript to speak a selection of text



Really, so you develop Bible Desktop - cool :D I tried an earlier version of it, and found it a little slow. I think I will try it again, now that I got my mac which runs fastor.

[compuguy1088]

You think?

-->

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Uh...did you read the rest of my post...I was trying to be slightly sarcastic on that mark...Java is #1 programming language used (at least as mentioned on one site).

[madmax_2069]

I think that Apple needs to hand developing Java back to SUN. cause isnt Java needed for the internet for allot of sites. Java should be on a constant rollout in updates and Apple has just NOW released it.

OS X tiger AND Leopard should get this java update also with PPC and intel support. if Apple cant add PPC support to something that is needed by so many web sites then SUN should step in and do something about it or take back development of java for OS X from Apple and do it themselfs.

if you look at it java that is being developed by SUN and not Apple is way more allong then this outdated (but needed) update that the PC world has already had for a wile now and are far more allong.

this update is rediculos and something needs to be done about it. come on this update should be intel and PPC. this dont require a 64bit CPU to run, it will run just as happily on a G4 as it does a intel CPU.

[aliquis-]

Mac Mini's before last August were 32 bit.Yeah, and I'm sure everyone with a mac mini will cut their wrists due to lack of java 1.6 (ok, maybe there are three java developers which own a mac mini which cares, but that's about it probably.)

I guess 1.6 may be faster in some cases but I would only care for Azureus(spelling..)/bittyrant in that case anyway..

[aliquis-]

Though Linux and OSX can use .NET (sorta), through Mono.....



It's slow from the fact that Java is platform independent; code has to be run in a virtual machine, hence why it will be slower. Java 6 did bring some performance increases, and some tweaks in GUI libraries (don't recall exactly what..).It doesn't HAVE to be slower because it runs on a virtual machine. If for example the virtual machine evaluates and optimize the code if produce while the application is running it may even be faster.

But then all the modern toolkits and layers of layers of software adds a lot of extra load in the end, so yes, with assembly written code which did only what you wanted things would run much faster.

[Ilgaz]

I will tell a very basic thing without going into Technical details or joking/sarcasm.

Windows 2000 users, users of OS which Microsoft abandoned official support, users of 8 years old OS on respective hardware (sometimes) have been running Java 6 for 18 months.

I think it sums up.

[dmsmith]

OS X tiger AND Leopard should get this java update also with PPC and intel support. if Apple cant add PPC support to something that is needed by so many web sites then SUN should step in and do something about it or take back development of java for OS X from Apple and do it themselfs.


For web development, I can't imagine developers requiring Java 6 for applets. Applet writers need to develop for cross platform and need to consider the least common denominator and who their audience may include.

As was stated earlier, many companies are conservative in their approach to upgrades. Many users, also, may not have the money to upgrade.

Looking at the scenario:
MacOSX 10.3 has Java 1.4, but not Java 5
MacOSX 10.4 has Java 5, but not Java 6
MacOSX 10.5.2, for 64 bit Intel only has Java 6.
On Win98/WinNT, one can run Java 5, but not Java 6
Linux and later versions of Win can run Java 6.

So the least common denominator is Java 1.4.

If one has any hope of a J2ME implementation, they'll stick with 1.3 or earlier.

[dmsmith]

Really, so you develop Bible Desktop - cool :D I tried an earlier version of it, and found it a little slow. I think I will try it again, now that I got my mac which runs fastor.

I found that it was unbearably slow on a 10.3 PPC. The problem seemed to be when opening new windows. And was reasonably fast enough elsewhere. My guess was that the Java to native was poorly written.

I have a Mac Mini, core duo 1.66Mhz, 2G ram and under both Tiger and now Leopard, I find that Java performs very well. The program is quite fast.

On the whole "Java is slow" because it is "an interpretive" language argument, I don't buy it. For two reasons: First, I find that the problem is generally in how the program is written. To get good Java performance, one has to put more thought into designing good algorithms. The obvious approach is almost always the slowest. For example, it used to take upwards of 40 minutes to index a Bible, now it is typically less than a minute. And the index is more comprehensive now.

Second, for an interactive program a user's perception and acceptance of slowness changes over time. Generally as they experience faster computers. If the user perceives that the computer is doing something complex, then the user will most likely tolerate slowness. Conversely, simple things should be near instantaneous. A friend of mine uses the phrase "between the keystrokes" to define fast enough. As hardware improves, the slowness argument becomes moot.

On today's hardware, interpreted languages, such as Java, PHP, Perl, ..., can be used for fast programs and even faster program development.

[Daveoc64]

Yeah, and I'm sure everyone with a mac mini will cut their wrists due to lack of java 1.6 (ok, maybe there are three java developers which own a mac mini which cares, but that's about it probably.)

I remember a lot of people claiming that they were using Mac Minis for software development.

They're a cheap way for new/porting developers to get into the Mac platform.

[sord]

Is Java dying out or not, can someone shed some real light on this.

If it is, fair enough that Apple drops it.
If not, why didn't they support, what must be millions of PPC machines?
Short answer - NO it is NOT dying out. Java has a huge developer base, and many enterprise level applications are written in it. It drives pretty much the entire insurance industry, is a huge part of IBM, and has educational institutions behind it. Apple just dropped the ball, and wants people to upgrade. Personally, I use my quad G5 for everything EXCEPT Java...for which I have a Windows machine for.

[RBR2]

Short answer - NO it is NOT dying out. Java has a huge developer base, and many enterprise level applications are written in it. It drives pretty much the entire insurance industry, is a huge part of IBM, and has educational institutions behind it. Apple just dropped the ball, and wants people to upgrade. Personally, I use my quad G5 for everything EXCEPT Java...for which I have a Windows machine for.

There are a lot more JAVA apps out there than most people realize and there are a lot more PPC Macs out there than Apple cares about. Having just had a new app fail to even launch today because of a JAVA error (which probably will remain unresolved) I am not at all pleased with Apple.
:mad:

[gmcoates]

Short answer - NO it is NOT dying out. Java has a huge developer base, and many enterprise level applications are written in it. It drives pretty much the entire insurance industry, is a huge part of IBM, and has educational institutions behind it. Apple just dropped the ball, and wants people to upgrade. Personally, I use my quad G5 for everything EXCEPT Java...for which I have a Windows machine for.

Thanks for the answer, that is what I was expecting and hoping. :D

I have a Dual G4 1.25 PowerMac, yes it's old, but NO it isn't slow or past it. So my anger comes from Apple wanting me to upgrade a great machine fo rno good reason. I would love to upgrade to a nice new MacBook Pro but, I don't have the available funds. But the big problem is what do I then do with the old machine, throw it away, what a waste that would be, I should keep being used until it can no more be useful.

Anyway I will keep studying Java and try to get away from my C# ways and decide if I go to Linux or not.

[javierbds]

For those that say that Java 6 is not important to end users.

In the rest of the world: https://jdk6.dev.java.net/6u10ea.html

You may argue that some of those things are already present in Apple´s Java (or maybe some are not ...).

PS: Java in the desktop is getting traction to be on par with latest stuff from both Microsoft and Adobe ...

[Eraserhead]

Looking at the scenario:
MacOSX 10.3 has Java 1.4, but not Java 5
MacOSX 10.4 has Java 5, but not Java 6
MacOSX 10.5.2, for 64 bit Intel only has Java 6.
On Win98/WinNT, one can run Java 5, but not Java 6
Linux and later versions of Win can run Java 6.

So the least common denominator is Java 1.4.

As the number of people who use Windows 98 and Windows NT users is close to zero, aside from Apple's brainheaded Java support you can support most users with Java 6. Otherwise you can support pretty much everyone with Java 5.

[boingolover]

Anything Core 2 Duo or above is 64-bit Intel (IA64).



IA64 == itanium, not x86-64, a.k.a. em64t in intel-speak.

[madmax_2069]

people with 32 bit intel Mac can always download Soylatte http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ and say screw apple's java development (if you have a 32 bit intel Mac) cause the way Apple works they dont care about you once you buy the Mac from them. they want you to be like every Apple fan boy and buy everything they make (meaning trash your 2 - 3 year old Mac and buy every updated Mac they make)

if you ask me SUN should take back development from Apple for Java for OS X cause to me they are doing a lousy job of it. just look at how long windows had java 6 and other OSes

i dont know if you can install or compile it for PPC or not yet, but there is places that say its for tiger and leopard PPC and intel. but i have yet to see anything offically saying for PPC.

[chillywilly]

On another note, why did they ignore Tiger...it is a 64-bit OS after all....at least on some level

I was wondering the same thing. Seems there is a push to forget about us Tiger users. I'm working on moving to Leopard, but have some apps I use that are not Leopard ready.

[Lord Zedd]

Tiger isn't clean 64-bit

[chillywilly]

Tiger isn't clean 64-bit

Yeah, I figured such. Just would have been nice for Apple/Sun to make a 32-bit version of 1.6 for Tiger. It's not like Tiger quit working once Leopard was released.

[Bergs]

I am running Mac OS X 10.4.11 on a 1.42 GHz PowerPC G4. Would I be correct in saying that there is currently no option for me to use java 1.6? I tried soylatte, but that's apparently only for Intel Macs...

[RBR2]

I am running Mac OS X 10.4.11 on a 1.42 GHz PowerPC G4. Would I be correct in saying that there isn't currently no option for me to use java 1.6? I tried soylatte, but that's apparently only for Intel Macs...

That is my understanding of things. (I have the same hardware, but am running Leopard. There is a Beta release for Intel Macs only which can be had from the developer website, I think.

[RaceTripper]

That is my understanding of things. (I have the same hardware, but am running Leopard. There is a Beta release for Intel Macs only which can be had from the developer website, I think.No, it is not beta anymore. That's what this whole thread is about. Read the first post. Apple released a production version for C2D Macs over a month ago.

[RBR2]

No, it is not beta anymore. That's what this whole thread is about. Read the first post. Apple released a production version for C2D Macs over a month ago.

OK, so it is not beta. It is still pretty much worthless to most of the Mac world. Big deal...oh, it is a big deal. Apple botched it. All the rest of the world is using 1.6, but not most of the Apple users.

[cervaro]

Downloaded last week, but still won't get more than half way through the installation process for some reason. :(

[brbubba]

people with 32 bit intel Mac can always download Soylatte http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ and say screw apple's java development (if you have a 32 bit intel Mac) cause the way Apple works they dont care about you once you buy the Mac from them. they want you to be like every Apple fan boy and buy everything they make (meaning trash your 2 - 3 year old Mac and buy every updated Mac they make)

if you ask me SUN should take back development from Apple for Java for OS X cause to me they are doing a lousy job of it. just look at how long windows had java 6 and other OSes

i dont know if you can install or compile it for PPC or not yet, but there is places that say its for tiger and leopard PPC and intel. but i have yet to see anything offically saying for PPC.

I've installed Soylatte and when i input "java -version" from the command line it works and show v 1.6. When I launch and app from the GUI it won't work and the option is not showing up in java preferences. Any ideas how to fix this?