Microsoft Music Store in 2004?

[MacRumors]

The Wall Street Journal (http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/031117/0035000033_1.html) is reporting that Microsoft plans to introduce a music download service in 2004 and was recently hiring for a senior-level marketing position for the upcoming service.

First mention of a Microsoft Music Store came in June 2003 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030610081105.shtml) when Microsoft was said to be demoing their version of the online music store to record company executives. Bill Gates later confirmed (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/07/20030726034401.shtml) that Microsoft was exploring the development of a music download service.

According to the article, Microsoft will be offering the service through its MSN Web site.

While Microsoft is only one in a series of music download services being launched over the next year, it has the unique position of being able to promote its service with all Windows installations which could provide them with a significant base market Apple presently enjoys this advantage on the Mac platform with their iTunes jukebox software.

[punter]

plus they have more money to burn then any other company in the world. And if steve is to be believed, online music stores so far are a place to do just that. Unless we see a ms ipod. It's probably only a matter of time.

[stefman]

Wonder what kind of antitrust implications if they use their desktop monopoly to get sales of their music store.

[jholzner]

I think competition is good but in this case Microsoft could ruin apple in the music download business just because it will be installed on all PC's...then again...it won't work with the iPod and everyone wants one of those!

Good Luck Apple.

[vwcruisn]

what! microsux copying apple! now thats a first :rolleyes:

[avus]

From WSJ:

A spokeswoman for the software giant confirmed that Microsoft's MSN Web site will offer such a service in 2004, but declined to provide further details.

If that's the case, then Apple has nothing to worry about...right?

[Exponent]

Here's an angle to think about:

The Microsoft XBox has a hard drive, and runs a Windows variant. It can, I believe, hook into your stereo system.

What if this service worked on the XBox? Would Microsoft then own the "home stereo digital music" market then as well?

There are lots of angles on this market - that's what makes it fun and scary!

I just hope Apple licenses it's protected variant of AAC, lest us owners of these files get locked out of other music playing alternatives. (For those zealots out there, no, the iPod is not the be-all and end-all for all applications. For many uses, it is far from ideal.)

[walexx]

Apple had better hurry up with its World Wide Download service so that Windows users get in the habit of using Itunes.

The more users the better chance Apple has of fighting off MS.

We have iTunes for Mac, and now PC, now we need IMS for the rest of the world before MS comes in and spoils the party.

The iPod might be the best portable music player out there, but others are coming, and the only reason the ipod is so popular is becuause its fashionable to have the ipod. ONce it loses its cool factor and other come on the market, Apple had better be prepared for a fight.

I think Apple need to introduce a cheaper ipod for people who just want music and not a portable HD aswell. Bring back the 5gig iPod at say $99.00 and bring down the price for the rest of the range, and then they will dominate the market pushing out any newcomers. Also please please please apple put in a built in FM radio.

MS always copies APPLE and because all those ignorant people out there trust them, they never know it was Apples ideas, and so MS gets the credit and the marketshare.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by punter
plus they have more money to burn then any other company in the world.

uh walmart?

[splashman]

Remember how everyone was saying that iTunes was doomed in the Windows market because they were tardy with startup? (There never seems to be a shortage of Chicken-Littles, does there?) Regarding MS in 2004, that assessment may be more appropriate.

Consider that by the time MS jumps in, most music-hungry users will already have chosen a service (lots of advertising right now and through the holidays). More than likely, a few of the services will already have died out, leaving only a couple of biggies (iTunes & Napster?) and a niche provider or two. And since the rate of first-time computer users has slowed greatly in the last few years (i.e., near market saturation), MS can't count on getting a ton of users of their music service by default (new computer buyers signing up with MS because it came pre-loaded and they don't know any better).

Over time, integration with the OS may help them, but initially, they'll have to have some kind of "wow" feature to woo savvy users that are quite happy with iTunes. And I expect the only "wow" that will escape my lips upon seeing the MS music service will be followed closely by, "That's ugly!"

[mj_1903]

Originally posted by krossfyter
uh walmart?

Nope. Microsoft has more cash than Walmart, although Walmart has greater revenue.

[Sabenth]

Another one but we knew this one was coming diffrance this one cand cause damage or can it???

wait and see

[ITR 81]

To me they will be coming late to the plate because by then Apple will have started opening up overseas stores and I doubt MS will open worldwide first because they have to jump through the same hurdles Apple did. Also with a new store opening what seems like every week or so I doubt there will be a big market for MS Music store as almost everyone would have by then picked their fav's by then.

MS is really looking to burn money..they are burning money everyday with the Xbox and now they are looking to burn even more money in this business. Why don't they just spend their own money on fixing all their exploits instead of trying to copy everyone else.

[leenoble]

..it has the unique position of being able to promote its service with all Windows installations which could provide them with a significant base market Apple presently enjoys this advantage on the Mac platform with their iTunes jukebox software.

The iTunes music store is currently entered by clicking on one icon in the sources pane of iTunes. There is no other way in. There is no other promotion for it on my system (unless you count the Apple emails to which I have subscribed).
Would Microsoft be as suitably restrained in driving traffic to their music store...

HEY, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE LISTENING TO A 5 YEAR OLD CD ALBUM.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO BUY SOME UP TO DATE MUSIC.

[YES] [MAYBE LATER] [REMIND ME EVERY ****** TIME I HEAR ANYTHING THAT I DIDN'T BUY FROM MS]

[OziMac]

Ha ha. I find the bit about 'providing more consumer related music promotion' to be a lark. In other words, MS will shovel more record industry marketing tripe down our throats than iTunes does. I don't know how long it will last, but does anyone else feel that one of iTunes big selling points is that it lets you look at music and download it with very few obstacles and 'promotional material' in the way? Some people just want to buy music they like, not music forced upon them.

[walexx]

I totally agree.

The fact that you can browse at your leisure without being distracted is a big plus for IMS.

Lets hope MS do come out all guns with all the irritating pop ups and banner advertising and promos shovedi in your face so that people will apprecaite the simplicity of using iTunes instead :)

[Adurbe]

Us poor chaps in europe have no download service worth using so apple really should start offering a service to us too...

But the EU is tackling MS on their media player monoploly in paticular, if the EU suceed (which i feel they may) It will crush Microsofts ideas, allowing hardware companys to include whatever player they wish with each having access to the full Media Player APIs

Although technically this will onlyaffect the EU market @ first it would only be so long before the U.S. followed suit

[gola]

Originally posted by walexx
I think Apple need to introduce a cheaper ipod for people who just want music and not a portable HD aswell. Bring back the 5gig iPod at say $99.00 and bring down the price for the rest of the range, and then they will dominate the market pushing out any newcomers. Also please please please apple put in a built in FM radio.

I hear this all the time, and think it is a very bad idea to introduce some kind of cheap ipod. Basic marketing (and social) knowledge tells us that making a consumer ipod would make the ipod "uncool" among the cultural-technological elite, and in the end kill it. Let the copyists take care of the consumer part, as they always do.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by splashman
Remember how everyone was saying that iTunes was doomed in the Windows market because they were tardy with startup? (There never seems to be a shortage of Chicken-Littles, does there?) Regarding MS in 2004, that assessment may be more appropriate.

Consider that by the time MS jumps in, most music-hungry users will already have chosen a service (lots of advertising right now and through the holidays). More than likely, a few of the services will already have died out, leaving only a couple of biggies (iTunes & Napster?) and a niche provider or two. And since the rate of first-time computer users has slowed greatly in the last few years (i.e., near market saturation), MS can't count on getting a ton of users of their music service by default (new computer buyers signing up with MS because it came pre-loaded and they don't know any better).

Over time, integration with the OS may help them, but initially, they'll have to have some kind of "wow" feature to woo savvy users that are quite happy with iTunes. And I expect the only "wow" that will escape my lips upon seeing the MS music service will be followed closely by, "That's ugly!"

Microsoft is never too late... They're like the government. The might be wrong, they might be slow, they might be stupid, but they have inertia. All they have to do is plop down in a market and refuse to move and they'll eventually own it.

MS was way late into the Web. They used to come into the Media Lab and talk about how misguided everyone was to be focusing on the Internet as a force in computing. Netscape had 95% market share, and now look at them.

MS was late in the PDA market-- Palm owned it without a question. CE failed for years. Now look at it.

Heck, MS was late getting into the GUI game...

No, MS is never late. Especially given the fact that everyone but iTMS has foolishly chosen the MS audio format-- all those users will eventually get lazy and just consolidate their libraries with whatever MS has bundled, or more likely get tired of having to redefine their default player and and having to reorganize their music libraries with each upgrade.

It's not about making money on this venture for them, it's about not losing in an emerging market. I don't think MSN has made money yet, but they're not pulling the plug and conceding the market.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by stefman
Wonder what kind of antitrust implications if they use their desktop monopoly to get sales of their music store.

Same as always, I'd guess. "We told MS to play nice, and they said they would, so we're dropping the charges."

They have a pretty good case this time-- Apple is bundling, so there's no reason they shouldn't be able to.

We can't sit here and laugh about how Apple is so far ahead in integrating features and building a seamless experience and then ask to have MS legally barred from doing the same...

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by ITR 81
To me they will be coming late to the plate because by then Apple will have started opening up overseas stores and I doubt MS will open worldwide first because they have to jump through the same hurdles Apple did.

Yeah, this will be interesting to see. Does Apple really have a special arrangement with the labels?

I'm guessing they aren't looking at Apple as something special. I think when they decide they're willing to allow international distribution, they'll open it to everyone. They can only gain by doing so.

Apple isn't a limited testbed anymore-- iTunes is cross platform.

In Europe, at least, I think the problem has been that each country has it's own licensing authority. It's just a question of who they're willing to talk to first-- Apple or MS. Given that they've shown little concern for their customers in the past, I'm guessing it's a question of who gives them a sweeter deal...

Doesn't BMG still own Napster? Hmm... Would they rather the world chose WMA or AAC?

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by gola
I hear this all the time, and think it is a very bad idea to introduce some kind of cheap ipod. Basic marketing (and social) knowledge tells us that making a consumer ipod would make the ipod "uncool" among the cultural-technological elite, and in the end kill it. Let the copyists take care of the consumer part, as they always do.

Except that, at least for now, the "copyists" can't sell an AAC/Fairplay player to the consumer market... Apple isn't licensing the format.

[mymemory]

That software of Micrsof would be another way to import viruses in to your PC.

I do not think MS is gonna be a problem, they never create good interfaces any way.

All the interfaces for PCs take too much room in the desktop, despite all the bugs and security flaws that come together with a MS software.

Be sure some one is gonna hack it and start to download the songs for free or something.

[the_mole1314]

I think there is one way to for Apple to ruin M$'s plans.....

Allow for iTunes to convert WMA to AAC or MP3. That'll kill them.

[yakirz]

on the M$ service:

"This file is not playable on this machine. In order to play music not from our service with Windows Media Player, you must make a burnt offering to the RIAA, followed by the sacrifice of your first born son in the name of Gates. If we deem you worthy, you may then play a non-Microsoft Music Service file. Thank you."

[Trimix]

Is that so noteworthy ?
Who really deep down cares wether they get into it or not ?
At least they will push out dorks like this Blum character -

[Wonder Boy]

there are already a lot of windows music stores. just because its from microsoft, does in mean it will be any better? i dont think so...

[jcshas]

I don't like the sound of this (pun intended)!

[ebow]

Originally posted by avus
From WSJ:
A spokeswoman for the software giant confirmed that Microsoft's MSN Web site will offer such a service in 2004, but declined to provide further details.
If that's the case, then Apple has nothing to worry about...right?

Sadly, many Windows users I know (and these aren't totally braindead people, either) use MSN as their homepage... very likely because it's the page that loaded by default when they first booted their computers. So hey, why not browse those headlines? Oh, I can click straight into my Hotmail account? And get maps... Why bother setting my own homepage? And hey, why not check out this new "Buy Music" link I just noticed?

Sigh... by having it as part of MSN it'll get a LOT of notice, I'm betting. :(

[Hawthorne]

Us poor chaps in europe have no download service worth using so apple really should start offering a service to us too...

1. Apple would love to do just that (and Canada, too). However, dealing with the legal hassles re: licensing and copyright is proving to be a beeyatch. Steve will be hyping iTMS to the skies come Macworld, I wouldn't be surprised if he unveils iTMS for either/both Europe and Canada then.

2. Anyone want to place bets that installation/use of the Micro$oft Music Store will "accidentally" break the functionality of Napster, MusicMatch, and iTunes?

[gwuMACaddict]

Originally posted by ebow

Sigh... by having it as part of MSN it'll get a LOT of notice, I'm betting. :(

i dont think it matters where microsoft puts it at all... they have the money to burn and the instant name recognition to boot. ought to be interesting. i still want to know if the same artist can be represented by all these services?

[cr2sh]

Originally posted by vwcruisn
what! microsux copying apple! now thats a first :rolleyes:
Should we be worried though that they're only a year behind us now? Its like they're narrowing the gap! :eek:

Originally posted by mj_1903
Walmart has greater revenue.
I heard a statistic the other day that 8% of everything sold in the US.. is sold by Walmart. Scary.

[MorganX]

My bet is this music service working with Xbox Live! will be a big promo.

Apple cannot reasonably expect that iPod will be the single dominant player forever, and they are tied to that.

I would like to see iTunes become the defacto music management/store browser software for all players. But that will only be possible when the iPod becomes marginalized.

[stoid]

I don't think that it matters that Microsoft is coming in late to the party, that's their style. Reminiscent of Dick Tracy they always bust down the doors machine guns at the ready and mow down anyone who stands in their way.

I think that MS will find a way so that in order to play music on their computers you have to have a subscription account to their music service. And since you are already paying for it, you might as well use it.

I hope very much that Microsoft mis-judges the market just like they did with the XBox and their inferior product still doesn't attract the consumer.

Further more, yes Apple does have integration, but you can easily use other services, oh wait, no one else makes a service for Macintosh. Microsoft on the other hand has many services available to it's Windows lemmings, and still MS will force these poor people to use their service.

Oh, yeah, and count on Microsoft claiming that they pioneered the market or something.

*sheds a tear for the end of the free computing world

[hayesk]

Originally posted by walexx

I think Apple need to introduce a cheaper ipod for people who just want music and not a portable HD aswell. Bring back the 5gig iPod at say $99.00 and bring down the price for the rest of the range, and then they will dominate the market pushing out any newcomers. Also please please please apple put in a built in FM radio.


PowerMac G5's at $500 would be popular too, but that doesn't mean they can do it without losing money.

A 5G iPod at $99 can't be done profitably. I doubt even $199 is possible.

[Photorun]

[sigh] yes, sadly peecee weenie press and people will hail Microcrap's music service as "genius" and they'll all jump on it like it's the newest thing sinces sliced bread.

The problem is that Microsoft controls the vertical AND horizontal, Windoze lusers are by majority a lot of clueless chumps that feed on the bile laden chum M$ pumps out and haven't a clue there is options out there, despite Apple or other marketing. As noted by the person above, the default browser (which of course is by M$) points to MSN, which of course is super bias laden to all things M$ (understandably).

Fact is Microsuck CAN throw gobs of dough at thep problem because they have the gobs of dough. They could sell tunes for $49 and loose money on each track and just wait while all other music services die out, including iTunes use on the peecee. Then of course, and it'd be typical Microshaft to wait until there was no other options then jack the prices back up.

M$, the champions of mediocrity, be prepared to be underwhelmed, lulled, then the masses of zombies that use their crap held captive.

[the_mole1314]

Originally posted by hayesk
PowerMac G5's at $500 would be popular too, but that doesn't mean they can do it without losing money.

A 5G iPod at $99 can't be done profitably. I doubt even $199 is possible.

Tehehehe :D

I won't say anything.

[iEric]

God damn Microsoft can never think of their own ideas.

[racolvin]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Same as always, I'd guess. "We told MS to play nice, and they said they would, so we're dropping the charges."

They have a pretty good case this time-- Apple is bundling, so there's no reason they shouldn't be able to.

We can't sit here and laugh about how Apple is so far ahead in integrating features and building a seamless experience and then ask to have MS legally barred from doing the same...

.... I think my feeling just boils down to this: Regardless of Microsoft screwed Apple early on, I'm just totally ***** tired of seeing Microsoft's name everywhere and on friggin everything. Let them come out with a music store, hell everyone else is so why not? *I* certainly won't buy into it, purely on principle but that certainly won't keep them from grabbing marketshare.

But I do have one question: When Apple introduced the ITMS originally, why didn't they bloody well patent the idea of having access to the store from inside the jukebox software, etc? That at least would have kept the competitors at a disadvantage for a while ...

Oh well .. yet another good Apple innovation soon to be relegated to the footnotes section of computer history

[Java]

Jeez. Before too long, Microsoft could be seen as a monopoly…oh wait:p .

[stoid]

Originally posted by Photorun
They could sell tunes for $49 and loose money on each track and just wait while all other music services die out, including iTunes use on the peecee.

I'm guessing you meant 49¢ ;)

Anyway, good point, as I said, like the XBox, a product sold at loss value to gain a market share.


Originally posted by the_mole1314
Tehehehe :D

I won't say anything.

Then please don't waste our time by trying to raise your post count.



Anyway though, I think that we should trying to focus on the positive here.

So..... ummm...... *looks for the bright side.....


Ah! It's possible that once this comes out, Apple will innovate like hell and make a product so durn advanced that even MS with all it's advantages (legal and not-quite-as-legal) won't be able to snuff it out.

[rjwill246]

Originally posted by Macrumors
While Microsoft is only one in a series of music download services being launched over the next year, it has the unique position of being able to promote its service with all Windows installations which could provide them with a significant base market Apple presently enjoys this advantage on the Mac platform with their iTunes jukebox software.

Interesting: I wonder what happened to iTunes for Windows? Must have been an Apple flight of fantasy!

[stoid]

Originally posted by rjwill246
Interesting: I wonder what happened to iTunes for Windows? Must have been an Apple flight of fantasy!
Does anyone have numbers on the latest market shares? Has good ol' Napster that's not Napster been "gaining public knowledge and slowly stealing iTunes market share?"

It would be great to get an update as to how iTMS is faring on the dark side.


(just noticed: the built-in speller checker doesn't like Napster, or BuyMusic, but it has no problem with iTMS. :D )

[DeusOmnis]

I dont think it would be wise for Microsoft to get into this battle... It would be smarter for them to rebrand another service.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by mj_1903
Nope. Microsoft has more cash than Walmart, although Walmart has greater revenue.

yes but why does walmart have the ability to throw more cash around than microsoft?

think hard.

[IJ Reilly]

The antitrust case settlement didn't do much, but one thing it did accomplish was to prevent Microsoft from standing in the way of the OEMs bundling the software of their choice with the Windows PCs they sell. It was only a matter of time before Microsoft came barreling into this market, so we can only hope that Apple is working diligently with the PC makers on including iTunes for Windows.

[the_mole1314]

Originally posted by stoid

Then please don't waste our time by trying to raise your post count.

Just trying to drop clues and info without going all out. Read what I've said and you can piece it together. If you don't want me to speak, then fine.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by avus
From WSJ:

If that's the case, then Apple has nothing to worry about...right?

Never mind the fact that every purchased PC and every downloaded and installed copy of IE points to MSN. Ya nothing to worry about.

I don’t want to be the eternal pessimist but iTunes is dead or if not that will be relegated to niche market yet again. :(
Lets look at Microsoft.
-They have millions to shell out on this.
-They have a 90%+ market share.
-Every copy of Windows ships with Media Player.
-They can advertise their music store right inside windows so they can reach a 90%+ market share as easy as adding a prompt to install a new version of Windows Media player with Windows update.
-They have 70%+/- market share of music players. (iPod owns 30% of the market.) I don’t have a figure as to what % of that 70% can play WMA but its got to be a big % and for those that only support non-DRMed WMA it would be a simple task to update the ROM.
-Finally like it or not 90% market share brings more clout then Apple has when it comes to getting the various music companies to open up. (This is why less then 5% market share is a long term death sentence to Apple.)


I wish Apple all the luck in the world and I will continue to use iTunes simply because by next year I will have a rather large collection but I think Microsoft is going to slowly kill iTMS. It’s not going to be an overnight thing but in 5 years iTMS will be at 5% market share. God I hate that company. Every day I wish for an EMP to flash fry MS Campus. :)

[greenstork]

Originally posted by the_mole1314
I think there is one way to for Apple to ruin M$'s plans.....

Allow for iTunes to convert WMA to AAC or MP3. That'll kill them.

I was just about to say something like this. this battle will be about codecs. If MS can get the RIAA to think AAC is bad, they will have gained an enormous leg up.

That said, I just don't understand the move. Microsoft is entering a loss leader market with no hardware to compensate for insignificant profit from online music sales.

There must be something up their sleeve, you can bet they'll be doing something in the home media domain that we haven't heard about yet.

[scat999999]

I wonder if that means you'd have to be an MSN user to access it? It may not necessarily be iTunes they are targeting, but using it as a way to pull customers from AOL, Earthlink and other ISPs to grow their MSN service. MSN is monthly income coming in. Gates and MS are all about revenue.

[jmerk]

B]"The might be wrong, they might be slow, they might be stupid, but they have inertia. All they have to do is plop down in a market and refuse to move and they'll eventually own it.

Netscape had 95% market share, and now look at them.

MS was late in the PDA market-- Palm owned it without a question. CE failed for years. Now look at it."[/B]

I have been making this very argument on other boards. As you have conveniently pointed out, their business model is this:

"See what is emerging as a success, copy it, make a "good enough", uninspired product, make it cheaper and take a loss, leverage the monopoly and slowly bleed the competition to death."

You mentioned how this worked in browsers, you mentioned how it is working in handhelds, I would go one step further in asserting that this model is currently in progress in the console gaming market.

Dreamcast-dead. GameCube-dying. Playstation 2-market leader. XBox enters market-at a large loss. My prediction for 2004-2005. Nintendo stops making console gamestations and starts developing game titles for Playstation 2 and XBox. XBox moves up to at least 50% market share...Playstation slowly bleeds to death and becomes niche player.

Musicmatch-dead in the water. BuyMusic-dead in the water. Pressplay-dead in the water. Napster-dying. iTunes-market leader. Windows Media Player enters market with Windows Media Player Device at a large loss. WMP and Device are cheaper, bundled, and default. Apple/Jobs indignantly insists iTunes/iPod "better" and does not lower price to compete.-iTunes/iPod slowly bleeds to death and becomes niche player.

Sound familiar? If not, please reference desktop computing circa 1977-present.

I hope I am wrong and this time Apple/Jobs does it right and the superior product wins...here's hoping...

j

[Fukui]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Microsoft is never too late... They're like the government. The might be wrong, they might be slow, they might be stupid, but they have inertia. All they have to do is plop down in a market and refuse to move and they'll eventually own it.

MS was way late into the Web. They used to come into the Media Lab and talk about how misguided everyone was to be focusing on the Internet as a force in computing. Netscape had 95% market share, and now look at them.

MS was late in the PDA market-- Palm owned it without a question. CE failed for years. Now look at it.

Heck, MS was late getting into the GUI game...

No, MS is never late. Especially given the fact that everyone but iTMS has foolishly chosen the MS audio format-- all those users will eventually get lazy and just consolidate their libraries with whatever MS has bundled, or more likely get tired of having to redefine their default player and and having to reorganize their music libraries with each upgrade.

It's not about making money on this venture for them, it's about not losing in an emerging market. I don't think MSN has made money yet, but they're not pulling the plug and conceding the market.
You beat me to it.
Its more about reinforcing the Windows Monopoly than anything else.
Apple is getting thier foot in the door, and of course, MS doesn't like it.
Windows is thier playground, not Apples'
:rolleyes:

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Fukui
You beat me to it.
Its more about reinforcing the Windows Monopoly than anything else.
Apple is getting thier foot in the door, and of course, MS doesn't like it.
Windows is thier playground, not Apples'
:rolleyes:


You beat me to saying "you beat me to it." ;)


And just as a FYI to the people bringing up the Xboxes being sold at a loss. All consoles are sold at a loss. The money is in the games and the accessories and/or services (i.e. Xbox live).


Lethal

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by scat999999
I wonder if that means you'd have to be an MSN user to access it? It may not necessarily be iTunes they are targeting, but using it as a way to pull customers from AOL, Earthlink and other ISPs to grow their MSN service. MSN is monthly income coming in. Gates and MS are all about revenue.

Nope. Most likely www.msn.com which every browser in windows defaults to. Did I mention yet how much I hate that company? http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/new_2gunsfiring_v1.gif

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
You beat me to saying "you beat me to it." ;)


And just as a FYI to the people bringing up the Xboxes being sold at a loss. All consoles are sold at a loss. The money is in the games and the accessories and/or services (i.e. Xbox live).
Lethal

Ya all gaming companies take a loss and from what I understands its anywhere from $100-$200 but I've heard MS isn't taking a small hit on these boxes. I'm hearing in the range of $300+ on each system. Granted that was when it was first released but still. MS can afford to play these games and kill off the competition. If it wasn't for their whore cash reserve that they have MS would have never won the browser war, never bothered with PDA's, never even looked at the gaming industry.
Heck does anyone know how much $$$$$ MS shells out for free software? I'd love to know. Anytime MS hosts an event such as MS Xtreme, or Pocket PC mobile tour, etc they are giving *** loads of software away. I was amazed at walking away with several thousand dollars, relatively speaking since MS overprices their **** to begin with, of software. If I've said it once I've said it 1,000 times. Microsoft is a marketing company that just happens to make software.

[the_mole1314]

I really can't see M$ selling songs at a loss like iTunes. I really think that prices will be the same or more, I doubt we'll see $.49 a song. Unlike iTunes, M$ isn't selling another device that'll make up the losses. Plus, I think that the new serive could very well be against the anti-trust agreement M$ made with the government. I think that M$ is won't win this, they've dropped the ball, even early 2004 is too late. Buy.com came shortly after amazon.com, but they are failing, even though they came out and had lower prices, and other things. With AOL, Pepsi, and possably McDs, Apple has inserted themselves firmly into the music market, and I doubt that M$ will be able to break that. I still say that Palm OS is the dominant force in the PDA market, with most new PDA/phones using it along with the cheapest PDAs. Even M$'s usual buddies at Dell and Gateway arn't using M$ for their MP3 operating systems.

Another problem is that they're selling them through the browser, so they'll face the same buymusic.com problems of licensing and technical problems.

[SiliconAddict]

Microsoft's chief technology officer touted the Blackberry e-mail device and Apple Computer's iPod in front of an audience of information technology directors and developers.

In addition to owning a Blackberry and loving the iPod, David Vaskevitch said he always carries a digital camera. But he didn't mention using one of Microsoft's own Pocket PC devices.

Vaskevitch, who reports directly to company Chairman Bill Gates and is responsible for developing a strategy and architecture for future Microsoft platforms, was speaking for a discussion panel on wireless devices at the Salesforce.com user and developer conference in San Francisco on Tuesday. According to Vaskevitch, he carries an Apple iPod, Research in Motion's BlackBerry device and a digital camera when traveling, because each device is tailored to a specific job and does that job very well.


Someone apparently forgot to tell this guy that Apple was the enemy. :D What next G5's at Redmond???.....oh wait...... :cool:

[mrsebastian]

typical m$. apple does it first, does it right and then m$ re-creates a cheap version to sell to the masses.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by the_mole1314
Just trying to drop clues and info without going all out. Read what I've said and you can piece it together. If you don't want me to speak, then fine.

Unless you enjoy the intrigue aspect of it, I'm sure Apple Legal can piece things together faster than most other readers of this board ... so, you can be all cloak-and-dagger and then get sued without many people knowing what you're talking about, or you can be open about it and everyone will know what you're talking about while Apple sues you. Or you can be quiet or at least more subtle in your "leaking".

For myself, I know what you're talking about (a cheap iPod this Christmas, as you've said previously). It's silly playing naive here ...

[JoE950]

i dont understand this cheap iPod thing.. MP3 players before the hd, seemed usless to me. i freaking carried around my powerbook for a while and used it as an mp3 player because it held all my music untill the iPod came out. it just seems pointless to:
A] settle for a low amount of storage when cds still hold more for less$$ and are faster at burning then transferring to a cheap slow flash card
or B] buy a bunch of expensive fast memory sticks just to have some small player that ends up costing as much as a low end iPod

nobody even mentions the fact that you can get iPods for REALLY cheap used. especially since everyones trying to sell their old ones to upgrade to new ones. you cant argue that a 32 megabyte player is worth 100 bucks when you can get an mp3 reading cd player for that and 50 disks... im finished

[Kid Red]

Let's clear some issues up for those who seem confused-

1) Music downloads don't make a lot of profit

2)ITMS is solely for the purpose of selling more iPods, so it's more a feature then cash crop

3)MS won't make any (much) money off this no matter how good (haha) it is

4)There is no music service competition for Apple because ITMS is to sell iPods not compete for people's downloading-mp3-cash.

So who cares if there is 30 music download services, as long as Apple sells the iPod, promotes the iPod and updates iTunes, Apple will be OK.

The iPod is the key and no other company has anything close.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by the_mole1314
I really can't see M$ selling songs at a loss like iTunes. I really think that prices will be the same or more, I doubt we'll see $.49 a song.

Apple isn't selling the songs at a loss, they make like 10-20¢ a song IIRC. They made like 50 million since ITMS went live I believe.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by Kid Red
Apple isn't selling the songs at a loss, they make like 10-20¢ a song IIRC. They made like 50 million since ITMS went live I believe.

Minus the process of cutting and preping audio tracks and adding them to the dbase, minus servers, minus data backups, minus bandwidth, minus site costs to hold all these servers, minus AC to cool said servers....etc....etc...etc.
It takes money to make money. The question I have is how much after the tab has been settled does Apple make off of iTMS?

[JoE950]

Originally posted by Kid Red
Apple isn't selling the songs at a loss, they make like 10-20¢ a song IIRC. They made like 50 million since ITMS went live I believe.

they dont consider that making money.. it costs them money run the service and most of that 50 million is going directly to keeping it going and well advertised. steve said they hope to just break even while stating the 50 million earned.

[Awimoway]

Originally posted by Hawthorne
2. Anyone want to place bets that installation/use of the Micro$oft Music Store will "accidentally" break the functionality of Napster, MusicMatch, and iTunes?

For that matter, the Service Pack Release of the Day® will probably break them as soon as Windows music store is released.

[asphalt-proof]

I worry about Microsoft in the realm. They have proven before that they do not fear the US gov't when it comes to anti-trust issues. I can't think of any major computing market that they have gone after and failed to achieve market share. (feel free to correct me). Yes, it's not about the money... Apple says that downloads are a losslead. But it is about the future of where the music industry will go. Someday dowloads may not be a loss leader. Does Apple want to be left behind when it had the lead all to istself once? THis really is the browser wars all over again and everybody knows it... that's why all these companies want on the wagon. THink of the money involved if your company is the major (think 70-80% ) of all music sales... not just CD's. Everything. Pretty soon you can tell the content people how much THEY will give Microsoft to sell their stuff.
I believe that Microsoft is the leader in this market despite the the popularity of iTunes and the iPod and the reason is that Microsoft can throw as much money as they want to get the marketshare. Imagine buying a computer, opening up your internet browser and finding you MSN portal telling you to sign up for Passport and the MSN account and getting 100 freedown loads. Who cares if the interface is crappy... hey its all free! This explains why IE is the most popular browser, why Windows is so ubiquitous etc. Once again, Microsoft has never failed to dominate a market they put all their resources into. I want Apple to kick their butts so bad in this area. And I really think that it could take Microsoft down a peg or two in the process. But I worry that Microsoft will buy their way into the clueless hearts of the uncaring masses and make Apple that much more irrelevant. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by JoE950
they dont consider that making money.. it costs them money run the service and most of that 50 million is going directly to keeping it going and well advertised. steve said they hope to just break even while stating the 50 million earned.

Exactly, my reply was separate from my first post. ITMS is only around to sell iPods and is not here to make money. Therefore, any competition is pretty much throwing money away. However, Apple isn't running iTunes at a loss tho, just not at a big profit either.

[ITR 81]

Originally posted by jmerk
B]"The might be wrong, they might be slow, they might be stupid, but they have inertia. All they have to do is plop down in a market and refuse to move and they'll eventually own it.

Netscape had 95% market share, and now look at them.

MS was late in the PDA market-- Palm owned it without a question. CE failed for years. Now look at it."

I have been making this very argument on other boards. As you have conveniently pointed out, their business model is this:

"See what is emerging as a success, copy it, make a "good enough", uninspired product, make it cheaper and take a loss, leverage the monopoly and slowly bleed the competition to death."

You mentioned how this worked in browsers, you mentioned how it is working in handhelds, I would go one step further in asserting that this model is currently in progress in the console gaming market.

Dreamcast-dead. GameCube-dying. Playstation 2-market leader. XBox enters market-at a large loss. My prediction for 2004-2005. Nintendo stops making console gamestations and starts developing game titles for Playstation 2 and XBox. XBox moves up to at least 50% market share...Playstation slowly bleeds to death and becomes niche player.

Musicmatch-dead in the water. BuyMusic-dead in the water. Pressplay-dead in the water. Napster-dying. iTunes-market leader. Windows Media Player enters market with Windows Media Player Device at a large loss. WMP and Device are cheaper, bundled, and default. Apple/Jobs indignantly insists iTunes/iPod "better" and does not lower price to compete.-iTunes/iPod slowly bleeds to death and becomes niche player.

Sound familiar? If not, please reference desktop computing circa 1977-present.

I hope I am wrong and this time Apple/Jobs does it right and the superior product wins...here's hoping...

j [/B]

Firstly, the GameCube is not dying and I'm not sure why anyone would think so. Last I checked they had over 300+ games which is alot more then the Xbox. Nintendo actually made money off it's console and when they dropped the price which is sure sign that new console is coming they took overall sales outselling both the Xbox and PS2. The only thing that keeps folks on board with Sony is it's huge PSONE lib. if not for that I doubt they would had alot folks buy PS2. Also as for Nintendo to be dying I doubt it as they are coming out with new console next yr that will play all reg cube games and will be out over a yr before the Xbox and PS2 future console hits the market.
I believe in this move Nintendo will start to pull in marketshare for it's self. In Japan the Xbox has always been distant 3rd place marketshare holder.

As for Apple this looks like deal only for MSN sub. base. I don't think they will win any share of earthlink or aol customers away as both those ISP's have biggest sub. base. MS might put MSN on all new PC's but how many folks actually use MSN if only to get online for the first time? Most folks go Earthlink, AOL or local ISP. I only see a MS store as being a marketing tool to pull users their way..but I doubt that will happen. If Earthlink decides to jump on the iTunes bandwagon I don't see MS stopping iTunes anytime soon.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by stoid
Does anyone have numbers on the latest market shares? Has good ol' Napster that's not Napster been "gaining public knowledge and slowly stealing iTunes market share?"

It would be great to get an update as to how iTMS is faring on the dark side.


(just noticed: the built-in speller checker doesn't like Napster, or BuyMusic, but it has no problem with iTMS. :D )
Yes. *Scrounges for the numbers*
http://home.wanadoo.nl/hoofdaccount/iTunes_and_Napster.JPG

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by ITR 81

As for Apple this looks like deal only for MSN sub. base. I don't think they will win any share of earthlink or aol customers away as both those ISP's have biggest sub. base. MS might put MSN on all new PC's but how many folks actually use MSN if only to get online for the first time? Most folks go Earthlink, AOL or local ISP. I only see a MS store as being a marketing tool to pull users their way..but I doubt that will happen. If Earthlink decides to jump on the iTunes bandwagon I don't see MS stopping iTunes anytime soon.

*sighs* Why do I even bother.

Reread the news item that says
service through its MSN Web site.

Not the MSN service.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by greenstork
I was just about to say something like this. this battle will be about codecs. If MS can get the RIAA to think AAC is bad, they will have gained an enormous leg up.

That said, I just don't understand the move. Microsoft is entering a loss leader market with no hardware to compensate for insignificant profit from online music sales.

There must be something up their sleeve, you can bet they'll be doing something in the home media domain that we haven't heard about yet.

Windows Media Center. We've heard about it...

[savar]

Originally posted by stoid
I'm guessing you meant 49¢ ;)

Anyway, good point, as I said, like the XBox, a product sold at loss value to gain a market share.

Maybe I'm naive, but selling products at a loss in order to beat out the competition is *Very* illegal.

XBox is different--all console manufacturers lose money at least for the first year or so of production, but recoup expenses on licensing fees, SDKs, developer support, etc.

Just like Apple is hardly making a profit on iTMS, yet they can point to iPod sales and say "hey we're making money on this" which is a legal defense.

If you can show, economically, that you're not intentionally operating at a loss, then its not considered anti-competitive.

A few years back, however, Target got slammed for selling a number of products *below cost* and could not explain how that was economically feasible, except to mumble "we're burning through our bank account" and they were stopped and fined.

Of course, I'm sure others here will point to more cases where the opposite has happened--and I am fully aware of the DoJ's blunderings with MS's obvious monopolistic practices for the last 8 years now--however, I really believe that they will not be able to drastically undercut other music services. I'm guesing they sell at .90 to .95 cents a song, if not 99.

Apple, frankly, is the only service that I can see turning much of a profit, because its the only service with iPod, which is not only a best seller, but also an extremely high margin product. Apple makes around $175 on the top model units! By contrast, they makes a few pennies per song after covering overhead. (~.35 gross profit). iTMS is only projected to bring in about 50 mil this year.

Humbly yours.. :D

[Sheebahawk]

in apple jobs and ipod. I still haven't bought my ipod yet, but I plan to soon. I don't know anyone that would want another mp3 player over the pod. Ipod works great with itunes, it syncs great with itunes, and it syncs better than anything most pc users have had experiance with. selling wma formatted songs through their ****ty website will not ehance any windows users computer experiane, other than offering already available services on yet, another website, possibly their start page. If this worries you then floss your ipods. Make everyone envious of it, and mock people who use anything less. be a smug elitist apple using snob. I've oly seen apple improve their situation year after year, and this trend looks to me like it will ontinue. The "masses" are starting to recognize quality.

as for Xbox, microsoft has every right to dominate the video game market. They offer the biggest, baddest machine, with the best games and online playig experiance. The machine's quality is crap, but maybe the next xbox will be better having ibm and ati hardware. If apple really cared about video games, they would still be in the market, or they would have purchased Bungie years ago. apples been snoozing and lost out, but i'm certain there won't be any snoozing when it comes to the ipod.

[the_mole1314]

Originally posted by ryaxnb
Yes. *Scrounges for the numbers*
http://home.wanadoo.nl/hoofdaccount/iTunes_and_Napster.JPG

I doubt that that's an accurate representation, since Apple has been promoting their service THROUGH apple.com/itunes not download.com, while Napster relies mostly on download.com.

[tazznb]

Microsoft is. They will sell music online for 49 cents, and let Apple's service whither away; people are too stupid, and will choose freeware music instead of what works best. Sure M$ will be sued, and taken to court, but not be dealt with properly.

Even if they were punished the way they should be it would be much too late for the competition ( Netscape ring a bell?).

:eek:

[Trekkie]

what do you want to bet that you have to have MSN or something similar to see this service? If anything I'd bet it's a ploy to sell more MSN subscriptions

[tazznb]

Originally posted by Trekkie
what do you want to bet that you have to have MSN or something similar to see this service? If anything I'd bet it's a ploy to sell more MSN subscriptions

I would rather say it's a ploy to kill chances of ITMS giving Apple's technology / computer getting more market share.

If Apple does gain substanstial marketshare Billy & Co will be in a bit of trouble (Windows' unsightly blemishes will be much more apparent when placed beside OS X, and with people hearing about palladium many are ready to bail; just gotta hope it's not into the arms of Linux.

[rdowns]

Originally posted by mrsebastian
typical m$. apple does it first, does it right and then m$ re-creates a cheap version to sell to the masses.

As much as I love Apple and dislike M$, one could easily argue:

Typical Apple, invent something great, focus on high margins and let someone else come in and steal your market.

[stoid]

Originally posted by rdowns
Typical Apple, invent something great, focus on high margins and let someone else come in and steal your market.

I thought that Jobs made it abundantly clear that they would be lucky if the iTMS broke even.

Not what I call a high margin. ;)

[Jetson]

*deleted*

[andrewc]

Originally posted by stoid
I hope very much that Microsoft mis-judges the market just like they did with the XBox and their inferior product still doesn't attract the consumer.


I don't think that the Xbox could be considered an inferior product by any stretch of the imagination. It is technically the best console by far. I'd even go so far as to say that the sales have to be considered a success given the reality of the market. In many ways, Xbox sales have really been earned. There was no reason for people to buy Xbox other than it's own merits. MS didn't have the leverage they have in the PC space for a consumer device. And they have failed on many consumer devices (Ultimate TV, WebTV, etc.)

I think there is room for more than one online music store. It seems to me that your choice of playback device (portable or other) really dictates where you will go to buy your music anyway. It's not like we do all our shopping at one store for anything else.

Also, what about Amazon? They are the "Walmart" of the web. Seems like they could kick everyone's butt if they decided to go with an online music store. If I was Steve Jobs, I'd be doing whatever it took to get in bed with those guys. There is massive synergy available via the Amazon portal.

[rdowns]

Originally posted by stoid
I thought that Jobs made it abundantly clear that they would be lucky if the iTMS broke even.

Not what I call a high margin. ;)

I'm talking hardware, the iPod.

[andrewc]

Originally posted by Kid Red
Let's clear some issues up for those who seem confused-

1) Music downloads don't make a lot of profit

2)ITMS is solely for the purpose of selling more iPods, so it's more a feature then cash crop

3)MS won't make any (much) money off this no matter how good (haha) it is

4)There is no music service competition for Apple because ITMS is to sell iPods not compete for people's downloading-mp3-cash.

So who cares if there is 30 music download services, as long as Apple sells the iPod, promotes the iPod and updates iTunes, Apple will be OK.

The iPod is the key and no other company has anything close.

And if the MS store is that successful, why can't Apple adapt the iPod to work with it anyway? It wouldn't be the first time Apple had to suck it up and just embrace/extend. You'd lose some of your exclusive reasons to buy one but by that point, wouldn't the iPod be strong enough to sell itself (especially if it works with any music store out there)?

The real rub would be getting MS music store support on the Mac.

[stoid]

Originally posted by rdowns
I'm talking hardware, the iPod.

we're talking about software, there is no mention that Microsoft is even thinking about developing and mp3 player. Comparing a new MS music service to the iPod isn't really a fair comparison. If MS does release a "iPod killer" I think that it will be nearly as unsuccessful as the others. *crosses fingers*

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by andrewc
I don't think that the Xbox could be considered an inferior product by any stretch of the imagination. It is technically the best console by far.

Ya well its the first console I've ever seen blue screen on me. I **** you not on this. I was at a party and someone yelled in the back room that the X-Box just BSODed on him. We all ran back there and sure enough. I wasn't fast enough with my digi cam though. The thing rebooted after 15 seconds.

Sorry but MS makes **** on their first, second, and usually even third attempt at anything. I point you to the Pocket PC as a good example. MS is the only company I know of that can f up countless times *shrug* and try again until they win.

[andrewc]

I won't argue that the Xbox hasn't had its share of reliablity/build issues (mine had to get a new DVD drive after a year). But I've seen Dreamcast and PS "blue screen" (well, their version of it) as well as had my Tivo basically "blue screen" as well. It's not perfect but my point was that it's not really an inferior product relative to its competition.

[Sabenth]

got to say that the xbox even though ive only had mine for a short while seems a lot better built than the PS2 THE GAME CUBE IS FANTASTIC but the xbox is bulit ok the sheer problem with the dam thing is its size its way way wau to big its deffently a pc no dobut about it and the pad desgin dont get me started there ive had nintendos ive had amigas ive had ataris ive had it all and never had a pad like the xbox awful


but blue screens nope not seen one yet then again hardly play on it

[jail]

Originally posted by Sabenth
got to say that the xbox even though ive only had mine for a short while seems a lot better built than the PS2 THE GAME CUBE IS FANTASTIC but the xbox is bulit ok the sheer problem with the dam thing is its size its way way wau to big its deffently a pc no dobut about it and the pad desgin dont get me started there ive had nintendos ive had amigas ive had ataris ive had it all and never had a pad like the xbox awful


but blue screens nope not seen one yet then again hardly play on it

You seem to have forgot to type a few of these, not to worry, i'll make up for it: ;)
...,.,..,,,.,,..,,.,,.,.,..,.,.,,,

[Sabenth]

my grammer is getting worse by the week thanks to the net.

lol :)

[LethalWolfe]

IIRC the first banch of Xboxes had some manufacturing defects that caused blue screens as well as other issues. After that first wave of bad product though I haven't heard any major complaints about the Xbox stability. And, something I never thought I'd see happen, the Xbox actually gaining ground in anti-Windows computer geek circles. After the first year or so people started to take the Xbox seriously. Good games (more than just Halo), Xbox Live, holy crap this thing might not suck so much after all.

I would consider the Xbox a failure by any stretch and in fact I think it was a surprisingly solid first attempt into a very tough market.


Lethal

[Sabenth]

Got to admit because of this thread i went to blockbuster and got some xbox games and re tried to play with it. Oddworld has got me but i still dont like the Pad. Also it dose need to play dvds out of the box like the ps2. other than that it saved me buying a memory card and a network adapta **hint hint sony**

[yakirz]

And this would bother M$ how, exactly? Esp. with the Bu$h admin., whose leader "prefers innovation ************! to litigation?

They'd just give M$ another free pass, the bastards. :mad:

Originally posted by savar
[B]Maybe I'm naive, but selling products at a loss in order to beat out the competition is *Very* illegal.

[bi denis]

And what if MS put something on next windows update to prevent iTunes from being installed on windows 2000 and XP?

[Sabenth]

didnt apple just do that whith music match software

[daveL]

Originally posted by Sabenth
didnt apple just do that whith music match software
Installing iTunes for Windows does NOT disable, delete or cause MusicMatch to malfunction. MusicMatch is completely functional, as it was before iTunes was installed, with the exception that iTunes assumes the responsibility for iPod syncing.

[tazznb]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
IIRC the first banch of Xboxes had some manufacturing defects that caused blue screens as well as other issues. After that first wave of bad product though I haven't heard any major complaints about the Xbox stability. And, something I never thought I'd see happen, the Xbox actually gaining ground in anti-Windows computer geek circles. After the first year or so people started to take the Xbox seriously. Good games (more than just Halo), Xbox Live, holy crap this thing might not suck so much after all.

I would consider the Xbox a failure by any stretch and in fact I think it was a surprisingly solid first attempt into a very tough market.


Lethal

They got where they are in the gaming arena due to their monopoly status;

Windows allows them to have a bad starting product, loose billions, and eventually through having money to burn overtake the competition. If they weren't Microsoft (the monopoly) THEY'D NEVER BE ABLE TO GET EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO HALO & ODDWORLD.

You have to consider that Microsoft used it's gaming monopoly on the pc platform to give themselves an unfair advantage OVER ALL COMPETITION.

If you think I'm wrong..... let Apple try it!

[Sabenth]

Thats all it boils down too money and lots of it crap loads of money but to make money you need an iPod lol..


The store wont make zip and who are we to argue with zip hell if ms want to fire away billions let em 1 less billion they have right..