Apple With Specific Plans for P.A. Semi

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

EETimes provides (http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=207501926&cid=RSSfeed_eetimes_semiRSS) a little background to the recent acquisition of P.A. Semi by Apple (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/04/23/apple-to-acquire-chipmaker-p-a-semi-for-278-million/).

According to their source, Apple had already been an investor of the company and had previously been in negotiations with it for low-power PowerPC chips. Apple's switch to Intel, of course, ended these talks and eliminated a potentially large revenue stream from the company.

More recently, Apple is said to have had a new chip design in mind and wanted the P.A. Semi team involved. According to EETimes, P.A. Semi had essentially run out of funding and "the only way to get the project funded was for Apple to pay off the other investors and bring P.A. Semi in-house."

As a result, the $280 million acquisition was to bring their talent in for this new project rather than any specific technologies P.A. Semi had already developed. This explanation is consistent (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/04/23/apples-plans-for-p-a-semi-not-interested-in-the-chips/) with early statements from P.A. Semi to their existing customers that the company was bought for "intellectual property and engineering talent".


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/05/07/apple-with-specific-plans-for-p-a-semi/)

[gphoto]

Sounds awesome! What ever they come up with will be amazing!

[pederg]

Good to know that we'll be staying with intel for a while :p Shame that we miss out on the PowerBook G5 tho.. :D

[twoodcc]

well i hope they are a good help to Apple. i wonder what this new chip will be?

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

It will be interesting to watch this develop and see where it goes.

[swagi]

Yes please!

Gimme back the PPC feeling. Honestly, those Intel iMacs (Core Duo first iteration) really feel bad. The lasting appeal deteriorated so much. For the first time in my Mac life I experience regular system freezes with leaving Safari open for more than 24 hrs.

My PB G4 feels so good in contrast. I fear upgrading to an Intel machine, as at least those iMacs I have behave a bit...let me say...strange!

PPC was a glorious time, so here is to hoping that Universal binaries will stay!

Granted Parallels and Boot Camp are awesome and wouldn't run on PPC.

[deputy_doofy]

Hmmm. Apple gets PA Semi to design a chip that is sort of a PPC/x86 hybrid. Intel then runs with the design for their new Core 4.
Runs all the current stuff today - OS X, WinXP/Vista/9x, Linux, etc. However, due to the extra stuff, Apple gets a bit of the revenue from the chips IF used by other companies (HP, Dell, Alienware, etc.), otherwise, Apple pays for the chips since Intel still has to create them.

Cool. Yes. I just made that up. May Fools == me. :D

[inkswamp]

Good to know that we'll be staying with intel for a while :p Shame that we miss out on the PowerBook G5 tho.. :D

The poor PowerBook G5. Its "next Tuesday" just never came. :D

So not to derail the PA Semi discussion too much with wild-*ss speculation, but let's connect a few dots.

1. PA Semi has experience making PPC chips.

2. Apple believes PA Semi has talent to do something great with the PPC (presumably).

3. Apple has signaled an interest in games lately.

4. XBox 360 and Wii are both powered by PPC processors.

Hmm....

[RedTomato]

My PB G4 feels so good in contrast. I fear upgrading to an Intel machine, as at least those iMacs I have behave a bit...let me say...strange!

I went from a PB15 1.5ghz to a MB C2D, and the change is amazing. It's many times faster, and the dual core goodness is fantastic.

It does need lots of RAM - my MB C2D was **terrible** on 1GB, but flies on 4GB. Fortunately RAM is dirt cheap at the moment so go for it.

Moving to a new architecture is full of pitfalls, and at the same time as a new OSX Leopard is just asking for trouble. I fully expected the first few Intel revs to be buggy as **** and avoided them for this reason. And I avoided the first few 10.5.x releases too.

I only bought my MB once it moved to C2D, GMA X3100, and 10.5.1 (or.2), meaning that every component was on at least its second revision.

The new MBs coming out soon, along with 10.5.3 are finally becoming a mature product.

[BornAgainMac]

A-Box 360 from Apple. Hey Microsoft, how do you like being copied?

[JG271]

Good to see that apple are making their own chips!



1. PA Semi has experience making PPC chips.

2. Apple believes PA Semi has talent to do something great with the PPC (presumably).

3. Apple has signaled an interest in games lately.

4. XBox 360 and Wii are both powered by PPC processors.

Hmm....

Although PA semi have usually made small, power efficient chips though - less need for them in a gaming machine - however - apple cover most of the tech gadgets spectrum, apart from gaming...

[arn]

The poor PowerBook G5. Its "next Tuesday" just never came. :D

So not to derail the PA Semi discussion too much with wild-*ss speculation, but let's connect a few dots.

1. PA Semi has experience making PPC chips.


while true, I think PA Semi's experience is making low-power PPC chips, so they do have some skill that could be useful for portable devices that could translate beyond PPC.

I took a look through their patents but it was a bit technical, so I was unable to get anything out of it.

arn

[sk8mash]

Interesting stuff...i wonder whats coming... :o

Anyway, a bit of an error...

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)


P.A. Semi had essentially run out of funding and and "the only way to get the project funded was for Apple to pay off the other investors and bring P.A. Semi in-house."

[ChrisA]

People here keep thinking the a CPU chip is the only kind of chip. Open up any Mac and look inside. Count those little black square things that are soldered to the PCB and notice that the non-CPU chips greatly outnumber the CPU chips. If you want to make the device smaller, cheaper and use less power, even if the CPU were zero-size you don't save much. We all know that a Mac's mainboard is many times larger than a CPU.

I'm sure what Apple would like is to be able to greatly reduce the nuber of non-CPU chips. Doing this is the only way to greatly reduce the size of a maniboard. but you can only do that if you have the abilty to do chip-level design.

I think it is clear that Apple knows that a small designer can't really compete with Intel when it comes to CPUs. They did not Buy PA Semi so that they can build better comonity chips, They bought them to design custom lowvolume device specific chips

I think these might find their way into products like the Apple TV or the iPod.

[swagi]

I went from a PB15 1.5ghz to a MB C2D, and the change is amazing. It's many times faster, and the dual core goodness is fantastic.

It does need lots of RAM - my MB C2D was **terrible** on 1GB, but flies on 4GB. Fortunately RAM is dirt cheap at the moment so go for it.

Moving to a new architecture is full of pitfalls, and at the same time as a new OSX Leopard is just asking for trouble. I fully expected the first few Intel revs to be buggy as **** and avoided them for this reason. And I avoided the first few 10.5.x releases too.

I only bought my MB once it moved to C2D, GMA X3100, and 10.5.1 (or.2), meaning that every component was on at least its second revision.

The new MBs coming out soon, along with 10.5.3 are finally becoming a mature product.

Thanx for the advice! I will upgrade sooner or later and I hear you.

I think I'll wait for the Nehalem MBP in about 9 months from now. But then I'll give it a go! :D

[deputy_doofy]

I went from a PB15 1.5ghz to a MB C2D, and the change is amazing. It's many times faster, and the dual core goodness is fantastic.

It does need lots of RAM - my MB C2D was **terrible** on 1GB, but flies on 4GB. Fortunately RAM is dirt cheap at the moment so go for it.

Moving to a new architecture is full of pitfalls, and at the same time as a new OSX Leopard is just asking for trouble. I fully expected the first few Intel revs to be buggy as **** and avoided them for this reason. And I avoided the first few 10.5.x releases too.

I only bought my MB once it moved to C2D, GMA X3100, and 10.5.1 (or.2), meaning that every component was on at least its second revision.

The new MBs coming out soon, along with 10.5.3 are finally becoming a mature product.


I went from a PB 12" (1GHz, 512MB RAM) to a MBP (See sig). The difference is night and day. Throw out the notion that Intel is the bad guy. Pentium 4s were crap and highly inefficient, but the Core 2s are very nice. :)

[aLoC]

Apple has a chip idea? Surprising, but they must think it's a good one to buy an entire semiconductor company to try and implement it.

[CaptainScarlet]

while true, I think PA Semi's experience is making low-power PPC chips, so they do have some skill that could be useful for portable devices that could translate beyond PPC.
arn

I would have to agree that the "PPC" isn't necessarily the point here. The patents and or the technology for the low watt chips are.

If Intel can't design the same type of chip, I'd suspect that PA Semi will design the chip and Intel will produce it (as someone stated before).

This all probably revolves around battery life.....

[KindredMAC]

The beauty of Universal Binary is that Apple can slap whatever chip they want into a Mac and everything will run perfectly.

Keeps the door open without having to commit to staying at Intel's house party in the event that IBM's Power6/7's party starts rocking the neighborhood and looks more enticing to be the place to be.

Still prefer the PPC over the X86 chips.... just me though.

Still never understood why the PowerMac couldn't have stuck around but with a Power6 chip in it instead of a XEON chip. I miss the name "PowerMac" also. Mac Pro just doesn't sound as awe-inspiring.

[aLoC]

This all probably revolves around battery life.....

I agree. Nearly anything that can be done on a custom chip can be done in software on a general purpose chip, so if they are doing a custom chip it must be for efficiency reasons, whether that be battery life or pure performance I don't know.

[dukeblue91]

I think it's a chip that will go into every Mac computer and that will be the only way OS 10.6 will run.
Perfect solution for fending off those pesky osx86 wannabe companies in the future.

Apple made Apple controlled.

[DaBrain]

well i hope they are a good help to Apple. i wonder what this new chip will be?

Yep! I sure was wondering just what this special chip may be used for and what platform or product Apple is planning on implementing them? Very Interesting!

For them to invest $250 million plus IM sure Apple plans on reaping mucho profits from this chip production down the road. Guess only time will tell! :)

[wordmunger]

The bad news: Your company has been acquired
The good news: You still have a job
The bad news: You now have the pickiest, crankiest boss on the planet

[eddietr]

I think it's a chip that will go into every Mac computer and that will be the only way OS 10.6 will run.
Perfect solution for fending off those pesky osx86 wannabe companies in the future.

Apple made Apple controlled.

They could do that very easily without buying a chip company. Basically you're talking about an integrated dongle (remember those?)

I think this is either one or both of the following:

(a) Apple wants to continue what they already started with the MBA, which is a real reduction in size and power consumption of Mac motherboards. What Intel can do with the CPUs is just part of that equation.

(b) Apple wants to build a next generation mobile chipsets that will consume less power than the chipsets they are forced to choose from today. Remember other than the CPU, the iPhone also uses off the shelf parts for communicating with the phone network. And this puts real limitations on the iPhone capabilities and design (and battery life). My guess is that some people at Apple or PA Semi think they build a better solution themselves. In other words, this is step one to a really thin iPhone and/or an iPhone nano and/or a really interesting umpc or small tablet.

[DaBrain]

I think it's a chip that will go into every Mac computer and that will be the only way OS 10.6 will run.
Perfect solution for fending off those pesky osx86 wannabe companies in the future.

Apple made Apple controlled.

That's not a bad idea! Much better than Micro Sloth Genuine Advantage. ;)

[rhg84]

I think it's a chip that will go into every Mac computer and that will be the only way OS 10.6 will run.
Perfect solution for fending off those pesky osx86 wannabe companies in the future.

Apple made Apple controlled.

yea nothing like pissing off every old mac owner by not letting them upgrade

[firewood]

while true, I think PA Semi's experience is making low-power PPC chips, so they do have some skill that could be useful for portable devices that could translate beyond PPC.

I took a look through their patents but it was a bit technical, so I was unable to get anything out of it.


A few random theories:

PA Semi might have patents (issued or pending) on low-power design technologies that could cover what Apple wants to do with portable devices in the future (as well as Apple's competitors!).

If those patents cover something Intel needs on its future roadmap, that would put Apple in an even better position when time comes to negotiate pricing the next few rounds.

Portions of PA Semi's team have already designed an ARM processor, and with higher performance than ARM Inc. could at the time. And Safari on the iPod is still a bit sluggish. But the XCode toolpath doesn't seem to care what CPU architecture is under the hood.

PA Semi's current technology includes something like an integrated security processor, the kind that might make jailbreaking an iPad many orders of magnitude more difficult. Might be one reason the defense industry is buying PA Semi's current products, as well as performance/power ratio.

Lastly, buying PA Semi might have been cheaper than the cost of a potential lawsuit for backing away from some sort of letter of intent.

^^
(but all the above are just some random characters due to my cat walking across the keyboard... )

[drcreek]

Chip doesn't mean CPU.

It could be a secondary chip for encoding MP4 or for handling different tasks than the main operating system.

It would be nice for quickly encoding things to MP4.

Currently you can't download and own a HD film to your iMac and have the same film on your iPod/iPhone.

If you had extra little chips for encoding you can download the HD version from apple and let the chip encode whatever version you need for your device.

[emulator]

Gimme back the PPC feeling. Honestly, those Intel iMacs (Core Duo first iteration) really feel bad. The lasting appeal deteriorated so much. For the first time in my Mac life I experience regular system freezes with leaving Safari open for more than 24 hrs.Sure it has nothing to do with bad software engineering but the kind of CPU. Right.

[dizastor]

Apple With Specific Plans for P.A. Semi

I certainly hope they have specific plans for something they just spent almost $300 million to buy.

;)

[mdriftmeyer]

Yes they want their talent but no it is indeed for their chip designs that aren't Intel based. They will not use their current chips, but will use their acquired IP to complete Apple's chip goals outside of Intel.

EETimes can't embrace being half correct and half incorrect.

[coolfactor]

Yes please!

Gimme back the PPC feeling. Honestly, those Intel iMacs (Core Duo first iteration) really feel bad. The lasting appeal deteriorated so much. For the first time in my Mac life I
...
My PB G4 feels so good in contrast. I fear upgrading to an Intel machine, as at least those iMacs I have behave a bit...let me say...strange!

PPC was a glorious time, so here is to hoping that Universal binaries will stay!


I agree! My PPC machines are more stable than the Intel machines. They also feel more "solid". The Intel machines may be faster, but they feel fragile rather than a powerhouse.

[BenRoethig]

The bad news: Your company has been acquired
The good news: You still have a job
The bad news: You now have the pickiest, crankiest boss on the planet

The other bad news, the good news depends on how said boss feels that particular morning.

[tobian]

Yes please!

Gimme back the PPC feeling. Honestly, those Intel iMacs (Core Duo first iteration) really feel bad. The lasting appeal deteriorated so much. For the first time in my Mac life I experience regular system freezes with leaving Safari open for more than 24 hrs.

My PB G4 feels so good in contrast. I fear upgrading to an Intel machine, as at least those iMacs I have behave a bit...let me say...strange!

PPC was a glorious time, so here is to hoping that Universal binaries will stay!

Granted Parallels and Boot Camp are awesome and wouldn't run on PPC.

Exactly! Try to imagine that - each processor is a pipe.. those PPCs are thinner, but always clear - you can feel you know, when the process will be done.
Intel chips are wider pipes.. but sometimes gets blocked.
Roughly described.. just mention the "megahertz myth", pipelining.. Steve was comparing Pentiums with G4s on one of his keynotes.

That's why I hate to use Intel Macs with Photoshop.. still using my good old G4 :)

[cnote678]

while true, I think PA Semi's experience is making low-power PPC chips, so they do have some skill that could be useful for portable devices that could translate beyond PPC.

Perhaps the interest in low-power chips + the interest in games = handheld gaming device? We all know how miserably the Nokia N-Gage failed but...could Apple pull it off?

[bobbleheadbob]

Thems gotta be sum really wicked smaht and talented en-ginn-ears to be worth $280 millions dollars. ;)

Must be nice to have that much cash lying around to buy such extraordinary talent and IC. I just wish someone would step up and buy me for $280 mill. :eek:

[dr_lha]

I think it's a chip that will go into every Mac computer and that will be the only way OS 10.6 will run.
Perfect solution for fending off those pesky osx86 wannabe companies in the future.

Apple made Apple controlled.
Except you'd have to have 10.6 work on current Macs that don't have this chip too, rendering this sort of protection moot.

[mdriftmeyer]

The bad news: Your company has been acquired
The good news: You still have a job
The bad news: You now have the pickiest, crankiest boss on the planet

Not even close. I worked for him at NeXT and Apple. Perhaps I'm just a hard driven, perfectionist who can't stomach mediocrity because I found him to be the most engaging, bluntly honest and compassionate boss I've ever worked under.

If you want angry, lifeless, morons just work in the Seattle Area.

[mdriftmeyer]

Chip doesn't mean CPU.

It could be a secondary chip for encoding MP4 or for handling different tasks than the main operating system.

It would be nice for quickly encoding things to MP4.

Currently you can't download and own a HD film to your iMac and have the same film on your iPod/iPhone.

If you had extra little chips for encoding you can download the HD version from apple and let the chip encode whatever version you need for your device.

Here's a hint. Apple is not using Intel Atom. I'll leave the rest for speculation.

[swagi]

The beauty of Universal Binary is that Apple can slap whatever chip they want into a Mac and everything will run perfectly.

Keeps the door open without having to commit to staying at Intel's house party in the event that IBM's Power6/7's party starts rocking the neighborhood and looks more enticing to be the place to be.

Still prefer the PPC over the X86 chips.... just me though.

Still never understood why the PowerMac couldn't have stuck around but with a Power6 chip in it instead of a XEON chip. I miss the name "PowerMac" also. Mac Pro just doesn't sound as awe-inspiring.

I couldn't agree more. Still dreaming of a return of the PowerMac G6. Mac Pro just sounds...so generic. Same applies to PowerBool :(

[ChrisA]

I think it's a chip that will go into every Mac computer and that will be the only way OS 10.6 will run.


If this is true then OS 10.6 would not run on any mac that is currently sold. None of the current or older macs have this yet to be designed chip.

I'm sure Apple would not obsolite all of their user current hardware. So, not matter what Apple does, if some one wants to build a "hacktosh" all that have to do is make sure it "looks" like a 2008 vintage iMac, Mini or MP.

[swagi]

Sure it has nothing to do with bad software engineering but the kind of CPU. Right.

Though I have to agree it leaves one question wide open:

Why does Safari 3 work rather solid on my PB (though eating up the memory quite fast) while it generally crashes my iMac.

Just a simple test (I have four Imac Core Duo first iteration with differing Apple RAM): Leave Safari open for more than 24 hours. I can repeatedly generate a totally hung system with that. And with totally hung I mean that I even can't Force Quit, I have to use the Power Button.

My current PB uptime (with Safari open 24/7) is 25 days! :eek:

[danbob]

Perhaps the interest in low-power chips + the interest in games = handheld gaming device? We all know how miserably the Nokia N-Gage failed but...could Apple pull it off?

Doesn't Apple already have a handheld gaming device - called the iPhone and/or iPod Touch? The games are not available just yet, but will be soon...

Will be interesting to see what Apple has in mind, and where they intend to apply the P.A. Semi chip stuff... I'm guessing its not going to be in one specific area, but a number of areas.

[shakhashiro]

People here keep thinking the a CPU chip is the only kind of chip. Open up any Mac and look inside. Count those little black square things that are soldered to the PCB and notice that the non-CPU chips greatly outnumber the CPU chips. If you want to make the device smaller, cheaper and use less power, even if the CPU were zero-size you don't save much. We all know that a Mac's mainboard is many times larger than a CPU.

I'm sure what Apple would like is to be able to greatly reduce the nuber of non-CPU chips. Doing this is the only way to greatly reduce the size of a maniboard. but you can only do that if you have the abilty to do chip-level design.

I think it is clear that Apple knows that a small designer can't really compete with Intel when it comes to CPUs. They did not Buy PA Semi so that they can build better comonity chips, They bought them to design custom lowvolume device specific chips

I think these might find their way into products like the Apple TV or the iPod.

that may be linked with the "making the imac smaller" rumor it fits

[inkswamp]

Although PA semi have usually made small, power efficient chips though - less need for them in a gaming machine - however - apple cover most of the tech gadgets spectrum, apart from gaming...

while true, I think PA Semi's experience is making low-power PPC chips, so they do have some skill that could be useful for portable devices that could translate beyond PPC.

Right, but remember that Apple isn't buying them for their existing chips but rather for what they know. Could lead to just about anything.

I don't know. I just think it's interesting that Apple is buying a PPC chip maker when two of the three big game consoles use them.

[gnasher729]

The bad news: Your company has been acquired
The good news: You still have a job
The bad news: You now have the pickiest, crankiest boss on the planet

The excellent news: Your work will be used in products that you can be proud of and that people love.

[inkswamp]

The excellent news: Your work will be used in products that you can be proud of and that people love.

The not-so-excellent news: those products will always have essential features missing for no good reason beyond your new boss thinking them unnecessary or inelegant.

[lazyrighteye]

So not to derail the PA Semi discussion too much with wild-*ss speculation, but let's connect a few dots.

1. PA Semi has experience making PPC chips.

2. Apple believes PA Semi has talent to do something great with the PPC (presumably).

3. Apple has signaled an interest in games lately.

4. XBox 360 and Wii are both powered by PPC processors.

Hmm....

Mmmm, yes. I like your wild-*ss speculation.
Tell me more. :p

[EagerDragon]

Thanx for the advice! I will upgrade sooner or later and I hear you.

I think I'll wait for the Nehalem MBP in about 9 months from now. But then I'll give it a go! :D

MBP Nehalem and new case redesign should be available Feb or March.

[nyquist11]

What if the idea is to make some sort of like new(not yet invented) 5g chip that is faster than 4G and uses much less power. iphone 3?:eek:

P.S.: I get that this company really dosent make wireless chips(at least none that anyone else has posted about.

[G4DP]

MBP Nehalem and new case redesign should be available Feb or March.

Your having a laugh. No chance.

These chips will be for future iPod, iPhones etc.

[JohnHawkins]

I totally agree with the iphone but does anyone think they could screw the mini with this, they have been FORCED to update their processor a lot lately because of their lax additude

[EagerDragon]

Your having a laugh. No chance.

These chips will be for future iPod, iPhones etc.

no, you misread what I said. I was responding to another guy about when Nehalen was going to be available. I was not refering to PA chips.

[gnasher729]

The bad news: Your company has been acquired
The good news: You still have a job
The bad news: You now have the pickiest, crankiest boss on the planet

The good news: Someone decided that you and your 149 colleagues are worth $260,000,000. Which means they value _you_ at about $1.7 million. How many Apple share options does it take to keep you at least for the next five years?

Wordmunger, as tempting as it seems to put the worst possible spin on this acquisition, this is not a buyout to get rid of a competitor, this is not a buyout to gain "synergy", this is a strategical purchase with the goal of getting and keeping these developers.

And Steve Jobs is light years away from being the pickiest, crankiest boss on the planet. You are confusing absolute devotion to quality with begin "picky" and "cranky". People who are picky and cranky don't turn $10bn companies into $100bn companies.

[MattInOz]

Has anyone thought Apple might have something fun planned in the other direction?
XServe Xtrem sure they haven't made much ground in server space but small academic clusters has been good to them.
What better to fight of competition in this space than a superlow power chipset to back up a low power CPU/GPU then stacked to together on mass.

Make a nice render farm for the graphic apps.
or a bladeMac for corporate work.

[gnasher729]

The not-so-excellent news: those products will always have essential features missing for no good reason beyond your new boss thinking them unnecessary or inelegant.

Ah, there is inkswamp again. Now tell us please, what essential features have been left out of Apple products for these reasons? I'd suggest that you look at products that don't sell well, like... Can't think of any right now. It seems that Apple's customers don't agree with you.

[inkswamp]

Ah, there is inkswamp again. Now tell us please, what essential features have been left out of Apple products for these reasons? I'd suggest that you look at products that don't sell well, like... Can't think of any right now. It seems that Apple's customers don't agree with you.

Done any copying and pasting on your iPhone lately?

[macduke]

I don't have time to read through all the comments because I'm in the middle of some crazy college finals, but I bet you ten bucks that they want that special chip for an iTablet device.

[PowerBookRelic]

Really, we have no idea what the driving force behind the acquisition was. Here is an article from the wall street journal blog that may help shed some light (note: reference to iPod and iPhone...)

http://blogs.wsj.com/biztech/2008/04/24/jobs-still-hearts-intel/?mod=WSJBlog

[jpine]

Though I have to agree it leaves one question wide open:

Why does Safari 3 work rather solid on my PB (though eating up the memory quite fast) while it generally crashes my iMac.

Just a simple test (I have four Imac Core Duo first iteration with differing Apple RAM): Leave Safari open for more than 24 hours. I can repeatedly generate a totally hung system with that. And with totally hung I mean that I even can't Force Quit, I have to use the Power Button.

My current PB uptime (with Safari open 24/7) is 25 days! :eek:

I do OK with Safari on my PowerMac G5 unless I open a PDF in the window. Safari will crash almost every time.

[Towhead]

My current project, a security system sold to the military, is made of a multitude of small processors. It has PSoC (Cypress) chips, Microchip PICs, Altera CPLDs (a clock-based FPGA), audio transformers, radio controllers (FSK audio), and finally all the application brains on a 80C320 (Dallas 8-Bit Micro) with 512K FLASH and 512K RAM. Maxed out, my project, through its descending levels to the actual actuated sensors, is 264 PICs, 2 Alteras, 1 PSoC, 1 80C320.

When the load is spread across a multitude of processors, it's easy to make the little guys who're but low-level circuit managers that can do many neat things. Each part accentuating the whole, each nuance carefully balanced in the order of things.

Apple knows this. It's almost as it was when Cortez's (Actually Balboa, Chapman screwed up) men first saw the Pacific at the Isthmus, Apple's pioneers are "with wild surmise" but only beginning to explore the realms of where no man has gone before.

I can hardly wait ...

[johnnyvenom]

Maybe it is true about a newly redesigned Mac Mini. Who knows, maybe P.A has a way to shrink the motherboard or something or someway to include High Definition playback on the little thing. :D

[BoRegardless]

Here's a hint. Apple is not using Intel Atom. I'll leave the rest for speculation.

Well, with Macs & iPhones around 8 digit levels & going up, and iPods in high 8 digit levels, one can imagine the savings if you get 2-4 separate chips integrated into one and then have the power level dropped, too.

Apple is committed to offering smaller better, easier to use consumer products, and I firmly believe they do not intend to be anything less than #1. Vertical Integration Innovation at its finest.

[bigwig]

I agree. Nearly anything that can be done on a custom chip can be done in software on a general purpose chip, so if they are doing a custom chip it must be for efficiency reasons, whether that be battery life or pure performance I don't know.
The PA Semi low-power PPC everybody is talking about has 10-Gig ethernet with the IP stack in hardware.

[swagi]

I do OK with Safari on my PowerMac G5 unless I open a PDF in the window. Safari will crash almost every time.

Agrred. PDF interaction in Safari plainly sucks.

Ah, there is inkswamp again. Now tell us please, what essential features have been left out of Apple products for these reasons? I'd suggest that you look at products that don't sell well, like... Can't think of any right now. It seems that Apple's customers don't agree with you.

Ah. Gnasher found a way to use MMS on the iPhone.

[macduke]

Ah. Gnasher found a way to use MMS on the iPhone.

I've been sending and receiving MMS on the iPhone for awhile now.

For example, when my I send my girlfriend a picture, I email it to her phone number @vzwpix.com for Verizon wireless. When she sends me one I get a text with a code and have to go to viewmymessage.com. This is the only part that sucks, as the code is usually complicated so I have to switch between the Text and Safari screens a few times to get it right. Copy and paste would be helpful here.

I've been thinking about writing an MMS program for the iPhone. Does the SDK have any hooks for the Text screen? Basically it could auto detect when a MMS text message code was sent, log into the website with the codes and download the image into the program. To send a MMS, you could access your contacts list, and the coding would put the appropriate email address at the end to make it send correctly. It would, of course, have hooks to access the Camera Roll. Voila! SDK MMS. Probably not that easy at all, but if someone who is a better coder then I am could figure it out, then hurry up and finish it! And hopefully give me some credit and some of the money you make, lol.

[swagi]

I've been sending and receiving MMS on the iPhone for awhile now.

For example, when my I send my girlfriend a picture, I email it to her phone number @vzwpix.com for Verizon wireless. When she sends me one I get a text with a code and have to go to viewmymessage.com. This is the only part that sucks, as the code is usually complicated so I have to switch between the Text and Safari screens a few times to get it right. Copy and paste would be helpful here.

I've been thinking about writing an MMS program for the iPhone. Does the SDK have any hooks for the Text screen? Basically it could auto detect when a MMS text message code was sent, log into the website with the codes and download the image into the program. To send a MMS, you could access your contacts list, and the coding would put the appropriate email address at the end to make it send correctly. It would, of course, have hooks to access the Camera Roll. Voila! SDK MMS. Probably not that easy at all, but if someone who is a better coder then I am could figure it out, then hurry up and finish it! And hopefully give me some credit and some of the money you make, lol.

Totally off topic, but you would be many people's hero. In Germany we have a different situation. T-mobile doesn't offer any way to send an MMS from the iPhone.

And receiving is even worse. They have a dedicated internet page for MMS, but alas, the iPhone doesn't correctly render the Play button. Lord knows why. Therefore you only can view it with your computer, though havint "The internet on your phone"

[gnasher729]

Done any copying and pasting on your iPhone lately?

Propose a user interface. Command-C and Command-V are not available. If it takes you more than ten seconds to come up with a user interface that doesn't cause any problems, then you failed (remember: you said "for no good reason")

[gnasher729]

Ah. Gnasher found a way to use MMS on the iPhone.

Is MMS an "essential feature"? Considering that Apple has sold a few million iPhones, it seems not.

[inkswamp]

Propose a user interface. Command-C and Command-V are not available. If it takes you more than ten seconds to come up with a user interface that doesn't cause any problems, then you failed (remember: you said "for no good reason")

I failed because I don't have an implementation for copy-and-paste on the iPhone? Since when does Apple rely on my ideas? :rolleyes:

You're changing the topic anyway. I commented that features viewed as essential to many users are left out because Steve Jobs deems them inelegant or unnecessary. You challenged me to name one such feature. I named copy-and-paste missing from the iPhone. And you try to muddy the subject by coming back with this nonsense about me coming up with an implementation. (And if that's the issue, then go do a Google search. Many implementations have been proposed out there. It was left out for no good reason.)

So anyway, you're wrong. Deal with it.

[swagi]

Is MMS an "essential feature"? Considering that Apple has sold a few million iPhones, it seems not.

Nope, same applies to WebApps or Safari, you know. The only essential App is making a phone call. This point is taken.

But there is no obvious reason despite of ignorance and stupidity to bash MMS. It's an obviously often used protocol. Every other phone on the market supports it, doesn't it?

From a business point of view it's even worse to leave out MMS, as it generates a billable service. Normal price range in Europe is between 20 and 40 cents. Why leave that profit out, especially when you have a revenue sharing agreement?

Third it is a major disappointment. Believe me or not, it is. The lack of MMS makes us Europeans ridicule the iPhone. My wife loves her iPhone (proud user for 3 days), but imagine the frustration:

You get a nice new mobile as a birthday present and you can't, in any way, open those birthday MMSes, your friends and family send you.

Your argument about Copy and Paste is valid. But there is no obvious argument, that can give leaving out MMS a positive spin.

But I'm thinking positive. Either Apple will get their act together with Software 2.0, or some developer will get very, very rich, when a MMS-app hits the App store. Imagine selling this app for 0.99 on the store. You'll be a millionaire afterwards, I'll promise!

<edit> Considering your argument: Maybe Airbags are not essential features in cars. I mean, millions of cars without Airbags sell every day, don't they?

The amount of sold iPhones doesn't give your argument any justification, as I could hypothetically say, the number would be double if it had MMS.</edit>

[inkswamp]

The amount of sold iPhones doesn't give your argument any justification, as I could hypothetically say, the number would be double if it had MMS.

That's a good point and not unlike the same point I've tried to make about the iMac. Sure, it has sold well enough, but imagine what how it might have sold if it weren't burdened with a lousy display.

Likewise, Gnasher is equivocating the term "essential." When I used it originally, I meant it in the sense that it's a feature that most other similar products come with thus it being perceived as an essential feature by customers. He's trying to whittle it down to mean "essential" in the sense of the product being useless without which is obviously not how I meant it.

[MattInOz]

I've been sending and receiving MMS on the iPhone for awhile now.

For example, when my I send my girlfriend a picture, I email it to her phone number @vzwpix.com for Verizon wireless. When she sends me one I get a text with a code and have to go to viewmymessage.com. This is the only part that sucks, as the code is usually complicated so I have to switch between the Text and Safari screens a few times to get it right. Copy and paste would be helpful here.


2 options
a) get your girlfriend to add your email address to her address book and send MMS there not your phone number.
b) get service provider to forward all MMS to your email address.

Not a technical issue, more a willingness issue.

[swagi]

Nevermind

Oh, @inky, I think your points are valid on second thought. I mean copy & paste has been done with hundreds of stylus-driven devices. So your finger is your stylus. It should work.

[Leilyn Real]

Hey there guys. Apple has the best product don`t worry about the rumors around guys.
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Leilyn Real
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[ChrisA]

That's not a bad idea! Much better than Micro Sloth Genuine Advantage. ;)

What do you mean? It's a horrible idea. At least with Microsofts "Genuine Advantage" it was still possible to run Windows on hardware you already owned. If Mac OS X only ran on computers that had the special chip inside then it would not run on any current Mac as none of the current Macs have that yet to be built chip

Could you imagine the uproar and revolt that would happen if 10.6 would only run on new Macs sold after 10.6 was released? Apple would not be so stupid. After all they will want to sell as many coopies of 10.6 as possable and I'm sure they will need to suport even the old G4 and G5 Macs too.

[RedTomato]

If Mac OS X only ran on computers that had the special chip inside then it would not run on any current Mac as none of the current Macs have that yet to be built chip

Could you imagine the uproar and revolt that would happen if 10.6 would only run on new Macs sold after 10.6 was released? Apple would not be so stupid. After all they will want to sell as many coopies of 10.6 as possable and I'm sure they will need to suport even the old G4 and G5 Macs too.

You're not looking far enough into the future. Steve Jobs kept a project running OSX on Intel in secret for over 5 years before making the change from PPC. He certainly has the next 10-15 years mapped out.

10.5 runs on all current macs, even PPC. 10.6 *may* run on PPC or not. 10.7 certainly will be Intel only.

Macs sold with 10.6 (or even 10.7) may have the activation chip, but it will not be required. 10.6 will run on all macs, with or without the chip. When 10.7 or 10.8 comes around, it may require the chip.

By that point, all current macs from 10.6 onwards will already have the chip.

That's only if Jobs intends to go down the chip activation route, which I personally don't think he does. Desktop computers are a dying breed. Will they still be around in large numbers in 10 years time? The money is in laptops, ipod, iphone etc.

[MattInOz]

^^
On the same theory they may already have a couple of plan B built in to the hardware. So that current Intel based hardware can move forward regardless.

Or (and back on topic) they follow Steve Jobs all purpose contingency plan.
"innovate through downturn/problem/....."

Apple's advantage is they have control of both hardware and the software to drive it they don't have to wait (like microsoft) for new hardware to mature fully they can in some ways support a moving target, and incorporate new ideas as they to market.

So PA Semi buy up could be about putting their hardware on the leading edge, knowing they have now made the software hardware agnostic and ready to adapt to what the future is willing to throw at it.

[chickenninja]

secret apple chip development project eh? juicy!

[jemo07]

The bad news: Your company has been acquired
The bad news: You now have the pickiest, crankiest boss on the planet

Your company been acquired is not necessarily a bad thing, you don't know the detail of the deal (or do you? :D)

You could also think of his Steveness as been the most future looking boss in the world, capable of producing products that not only impact UI, design, but even pop culture. His might not be the courtliest person on the planet, but heck you could learn alot from the man IMHO.

JM