A $15,000 AppleTV

[fivepoint]

So... my millionaire friend (I'm not kidding) was telling me the other day that his 'theatre guy' was trying to talk him to being this thing called the Kaleidescape. He described it to me, and I said "wow, that sounds just like my new AppleTV."

The catch is... that this thing was going for over $15,000. I did some more research, and apparently 50 Cent (the hip-hop artist) has one (obviously) but if you go to the website, it is amazing how much the interface looks like AppleTV. They've been around a lot longer than AppleTV I think, so it makes me kind of curious...

I can't believe you could sell someone something in good concious that costs $15,000 with (apparently) less functionality than an AppleTV costing $220. Anyway, here it is. Check out the interface. Parts of it are very "AppleTV-esque"
http://www.kaleidescape.com/experience/

[MacAodh]

There's defo more fetures etc... but not much more then an :apple:tv alright.

[MikieMikie]

This is similar only in it serves up media. But it is significantly different in other, important ways. For one, it implies that it rips your DVDs and CDs automagically for you. Just feed 'em in and it takes care of the rest. It manages storage, backup, etc.

The Apple TV, as good as it is, seems like a poor-man's version of this.

If I had enough money, I'd buy one of these. Right after my Bentley Coupe. Ain't gonna happen, amigos, but, hey, I can dream, can't I? Bye-bye Handbrake, tagging, MacTheRipper, etc?

[PROJECT359]

So in a nutshell, it's the same as :apple:TV but with expandable HD space. No thanks.

[roland.g]

I saw this demoed at a home expo show and it really does blow the Apple TV (which I do have) out of the water. It runs with a 32TB drive (I think they offer more now) and you can load in all your DVDs at full resolution, no weird ripping or compression to think about. They do all the tagging for you with complete actors, directors, producers, plotlines, etc. You can then browse and cross-browse by Genre, Actor, Director, etc. And of course you can hook it to TVs in mutliple rooms all off the one server which can play to multiple units at once. The remote has visual touchscreen info to mimic the TV onscreen info. And they also incorporate large projection screens that are pretty sick too. Certainly out of my price range. The Apple TV and Mac setup is a nice alternative for the everyday consumer but if funds are not an issue, this would be the way to go. The demo I saw was fantastic. Considering all the work I've put in ripping, HB'ing and tagging my DVDs (over 150 to date) this is a much simpler/easier solution. Not to mention my Apple TV still drops the signal to my wifi intermittently - like once a week - which is a pain in the ass.

[fivepoint]

I saw this demoed at a home expo show and it really does blow the Apple TV (which I do have) out of the water. It runs with a 32TB drive (I think they offer more now) and you can load in all your DVDs at full resolution, no weird ripping or compression to think about. They do all the tagging for you with complete actors, directors, producers, plotlines, etc. You can then browse and cross-browse by Genre, Actor, Director, etc. And of course you can hook it to TVs in mutliple rooms all off the one server which can play to multiple units at once. The remote has visual touchscreen info to mimic the TV onscreen info. And they also incorporate large projection screens that are pretty sick too. Certainly out of my price range. The Apple TV and Mac setup is a nice alternative for the everyday consumer but if funds are not an issue, this would be the way to go. The demo I saw was fantastic. Considering all the work I've put in ripping, HB'ing and tagging my DVDs (over 150 to date) this is a much simpler/easier solution. Not to mention my Apple TV still drops the signal to my wifi intermittently - like once a week - which is a pain in the ass.


I wonder what the portability/compatibility of those files are though... I mean, when you get sick of the Kaleidescape, or something new/different comes out (appletv 2 :) can you move all of those files over?

Also, you can't put the files on your iPod, iPhone, or watch them from your computer. Also, I don't think you can use it to buy movies over the internet, can you? How about the album art? Do you have to scan that stuff in?

[VideoFreek]

The one thing Kaleidescape's system DOES do, which the Apple TV can't, is allow you to rip commercial DVDs to the unit's hard drive legally. It was engineered specifically to use licensed CSS keys and to handle the data in a way that is in full compliance with the CSS license. Kaleidescape reportedly went through a lot of trouble to do this, but it didn't stop the DVD-CCA (the outfit that licenses the CSS encryption system) from suing them anyway. Fortunately, Kaleidescape prevailed in court (see article here (http://www.cepro.com/article/kaleidescape_prevails_in_dvd_ripping_case/)).

I bring this us because I think people around here tend to lose sight of the fact that ripping DVDs is presently, at least in the US, a crime under the DMCA. Forget what you think you know about "fair use," it doesn't apply. I'm not getting preachy about whether it's right or wrong, I'm merely pointing out that we must always remember the law is not on our side at present, and that we should continually pressure our legislators to restore "fair use" rights to private citizens who want to view their legally-purchased content from a server instead of a DVD player.

[milo]

The one thing Kaleidescape's system DOES do, which the Apple TV can't, is allow you to rip commercial DVDs to the unit's hard drive legally. It was engineered specifically to use licensed CSS keys and to handle the data in a way that is in full compliance with the CSS license. Kaleidescape reportedly went through a lot of trouble to do this, but it didn't stop the DVD-CCA (the outfit that licenses the CSS encryption system) from suing them anyway. Fortunately, Kaleidescape prevailed in court (see article here (http://www.cepro.com/article/kaleidescape_prevails_in_dvd_ripping_case/)).

I bring this us because I think people around here tend to lose sight of the fact that ripping DVDs is presently, at least in the US, a crime under the DMCA. Forget what you think you know about "fair use," it doesn't apply. I'm not getting preachy about whether it's right or wrong, I'm merely pointing out that we must always remember the law is not on our side at present, and that we should continually pressure our legislators to restore "fair use" rights to private citizens who want to view their legally-purchased content from a server instead of a DVD player.

If Kaleidescape won, that's legal precedent. The MPAA can claim all they want, but I doubt they'd win a case against a consumer ripping DVDs they bought to format shift.

It would be great to see the law change, but the current one is probably unenforceable anyway.

[VideoFreek]

If Kaleidescape won, that's legal precedent. The MPAA can claim all they want, but I doubt they'd win a case against a consumer ripping DVDs they bought to format shift.

It would be great to see the law change, but the current one is probably unenforceable anyway.Kaleidescape is NOT legal precedent, because their system does not rely on circumventing access protection controls, which is at the heart of the DMCA.

The MPAA doesn't have to "win" a case; the law is on their side and is pretty clear. The enforceability of the DMCA has not been well-tested, as you say, but on the other hand you wouldn't want to be the poor sucker singled out by the MPAA to make an example of. Life's too short to go through that sort of misery. All I'm saying is that we should not be complacent about this, and should push Congress to change a really bad law.

[roland.g]

I wonder what the portability/compatibility of those files are though... I mean, when you get sick of the Kaleidescape, or something new/different comes out (appletv 2 :) can you move all of those files over?

Also, you can't put the files on your iPod, iPhone, or watch them from your computer. Also, I don't think you can use it to buy movies over the internet, can you? How about the album art? Do you have to scan that stuff in?

Album art and all tagging is provided by them. You put in the DVD and it does everything else. But yes, no portability to other systems. Fine with me, the few movies I want on my iPhone I rip at iPhone resolution 480x320, 400MB per movie. I don't do one version for all formats. I have about 20 movies that I can put on my iPhone and they are unchecked in the movies list so they don't show up as duplicates on my Apple TV menu. But they still sync to my phone. Now true, you can't buy or but I'm sure you're pretty safe with that system for a while in terms of futureproofing. Anyway, if you can afford it, you can probably buy all the DVDs you want rather than renting or wanting to buy digital. Who knows they may begin offering a download in their version 2.

[pprior]

I can't believe you could sell someone something in good concious that costs $15,000 with (apparently) less functionality than an AppleTV costing $220. Anyway, here it is. Check out the interface. Parts of it are very "AppleTV-esque"
http://www.kaleidescape.com/experience/

You have no idea what you are talking about. Kaleidescape is WAY beyond apple TV.

Show me where your apple TV can play back hundreds of DVDs from multiple rooms in the home with RAID backup all with absolutely top notch touchpad interface and incredible support (including they will rip your DVDs for you).

I own an appleTV so I'm not bashing, but please don't embarrass yourself by thinking it's even close to that system.

[fivepoint]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Kaleidescape is WAY beyond apple TV.

Show me where your apple TV can play back hundreds of DVDs from multiple rooms in the home with RAID backup all with absolutely top notch touchpad interface and incredible support (including they will rip your DVDs for you).

I own an appleTV so I'm not bashing, but please don't embarrass yourself by thinking it's even close to that system.



Anyway, My AppleTV (if I had more than 1) CAN play back hundreds of DVDS from multiple rooms in the home with RAID backup... but that is besides the point. Apparently that is not the main appeal of the Kaliedescape. I would guess that it is the simplicity/legality of the ripping process. For someone less computer-skilled the ability to simply put the DVD in and let it do the rest... is worth a lot of money!

I didn't know much about the Kaliedescape when I started the thread this morning... I have been enjoying reading about it on here and getting a better grip on it. I don't see why you have to go all crazy and start making me out to be a bad guy. Pretty uncalled for, dude.

[fivepoint]

Also... I would like to add, there are MANY customers out there who would probably much rather have an AppleTV from what I've heard this morning. I'm one of them, and this is why:


Downloadable rental content.
Downloadable purchased SD content.
Downloadable purchased HD content.
YouTube access.
Flickr access.
.Mac Gallery access.
iPhoto integration.
iTunes integration.
iTunes store integration.
Podcast support.
AirTunes support.
Simplistic "grandma ready" remote control.
Common MP4 format.
Mac and PC compatibility.
iPod and iPhone compatibility.
Much Smaller.
~$15,000 CHEAPER!!!


NOTICE: I did not say ALL customers would prefer it... I said MANY.

[pagansoul]

I love this system and if I had a home of 500k or more and the income I would jump all over this. However, I live in a small 130k home and spend all my surplus pay on actual DVD/BR/CDs. For me the :apple:TV is more in line with my pocket-book. I have a huge collection of DVDs that I have been collecting since the format began. I know I passed the 2k DVD disc and have over 500 CDs and only about 25 blu-ray. The manual time and effort that goes into set-up is my hobby but Kaleidescape takes care of that, at a price I am not willing to pay. If I was in the movie/music business and doing well this would be in my home along with my theatre.

[wmealer]

I just had a hilarious thought... I bet more than a few people out there have paid a boat-load of money for this, and still use their netflix and/or usenet accounts to fill it with illegal content.

Now THAT'S comedy. :D

[roland.g]

I just had a hilarious thought... I bet more than a few people out there have paid a boat-load of money for this, and still use their netflix and/or usenet accounts to fill it with illegal content.

Now THAT'S comedy. :D

When I saw the demo, the guy specifically said not to do that with netflix. CYA of course. But remember at a home show the people there most likely can't afford it. And those that can will purchase the DVDs rather than dealing with netflix or other rentals.

[2contagious]

the two products are clearly not aimed at the same "type of people" and not for (exactly) the same purposes..so why compare them? :confused:

[pprior]

the two products are clearly not aimed at the same "type of people" and not for (exactly) the same purposes..so why compare them? :confused:

Exactly.

And to the poster that said his apple TV can play multiple movies all over the house, I don't think so. That system can stream multiple movies at the same time to multiple screens anywhere in the home. ATV can stream one movie at one time, maybe to multiple rooms, but a single stream.

I briefly considered it at one time, just for the high WAF and simplicity of use, but the price goes well north of 15K and in the end I just couldn't justify that kind of money at my income level

They just aren't even close and the OP was making out someone who bought one to be a fool, and that's just not the case. Don't bash what you can't afford just because it's expensive. In life you generally get what you pay for. I own an ATV, but would love one of those systems!

[fivepoint]

Exactly.

And to the poster that said his apple TV can play multiple movies all over the house, I don't think so. That system can stream multiple movies at the same time to multiple screens anywhere in the home. ATV can stream one movie at one time, maybe to multiple rooms, but a single stream.

I briefly considered it at one time, just for the high WAF and simplicity of use, but the price goes well north of 15K and in the end I just couldn't justify that kind of money at my income level

They just aren't even close and the OP was making out someone who bought one to be a fool, and that's just not the case. Don't bash what you can't afford just because it's expensive. In life you generally get what you pay for. I own an ATV, but would love one of those systems!

Wrong. He is my good friend and I was looking out for him. A) He doesn't own one. He was told about it... and that's all. B)I never told him anything to the tune of "that would be a dumb idea when the AppleTV does the exact same thing!". All I said was "that sounds similar to my new AppleTV." Here's some advice... stop putting words in other people' mouths.

I posted on here to get people's reaction to the incredible price of this product and to hopefully learn something more about it. All you've done is come on here, insult my intelligence and attack me for even insinuating that there was something similar between the two devices. Your posts should be removed for being inflamatory and for criticizing me personally.

[gcmexico]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Kaleidescape is WAY beyond apple TV.

Show me where your apple TV can play back hundreds of DVDs from multiple rooms in the home with RAID backup all with absolutely top notch touchpad interface and incredible support (including they will rip your DVDs for you).

I own an appleTV so I'm not bashing, but please don't embarrass yourself by thinking it's even close to that system.

**
I think you will need multiple Apple TV's to do this...it should work, if you have everything on Time Capsule (1tb is not sufficient, Apple will need to make a 32tb backup drive)...but it is possible to do what the 15,000 machine can do...it will just take a little thinking and a lot less money:cool:

[MikieMikie]

fivepoint:
breathe in, breathe out, relax. :)

I agree that people are quick to criticize, and I wanted to thank you for the link. I never knew anything like this existed before you posted the link.

And I wasn't kidding: if I could afford it (i.e.: had more money that sense), I would buy one in a heartbeat.

I do find it interesting how much we can get out Apple TVs to do for so little $ and a lot of effort.

[pprior]

Well, here is what you posted... (including sic "concious"):


I can't believe you could sell someone something in good concious that costs $15,000 with (apparently) less functionality than an AppleTV costing $220.
http://www.kaleidescape.com/experience/

-you- are clearly implying that anyone selling that system is doing so in bad faith (i.e. the "good conscience" remark) and also therefore implying that the only reason a buyer would choose it is because he's being misled by the salesperson and therefore is a fool.

I see this all the time, people assume that something at a lower price point that has similar features makes it equal to a much higher priced product. I find that particularly amusing in an apple forum.

If you are so thin skinned that you find my legitimate objection to your personal attack on a salesperson (and a company) that provides a very high end product, then I would suggest you refrain from making such hostile comments in the future. The clear implication is that this "millionaire" friend of yours should be soooo thankful to have you around to educate him. The reality that you may not understand is that to many people with high incomes, time is more valuable than money and his installer may be right on track to provide him a legal product (your DVD rips on apple TV may not be) that is very high in the service sector.

Can you serve up a similar experience with a HTPC, or even an appleTV, yes. That's why I own one of each. But to assume that everyone's needs are the same as yours and that only someone of bad conscience would sell a product like kaleidescape is not only foolish and naive, but reeks of the same judgemental attitude to which you wish to ascribe me.

Kettle and the pot, and all that.

[pprior]

**
I think you will need multiple Apple TV's to do this...it should work, if you have everything on Time Capsule (1tb is not sufficient, Apple will need to make a 32tb backup drive)...but it is possible to do what the 15,000 machine can do...it will just take a little thinking and a lot less money:cool:

Well that's the point. And how do you control each atv separately with a single remote that also had beautiful graphics and that anyone can use without prior instruction. Companies like kaleidescape sell a high end product to people who want it just to WORK and work well, without the time and hassle factor that many of us put up with because we either need to (financially) or wish to (because we're cheap/frugal).

If someone who owned one of these products came in and started saying what idiots we were for trying to do similar things with ATV, I would object to that as well. The point is that there are different products and different price levels because people's needs are different. The OP made the point that his poor friend was being ripped off by a sleezy salesman, and that's just as wrong.

[mr_matalino]

Wrong. He is my good friend and I was looking out for him. A) He doesn't own one. He was told about it... and that's all. B)I never told him anything to the tune of "that would be a dumb idea when the AppleTV does the exact same thing!". All I said was "that sounds similar to my new AppleTV." Here's some advice... stop putting words in other people' mouths.

I posted on here to get people's reaction to the incredible price of this product and to hopefully learn something more about it. All you've done is come on here, insult my intelligence and attack me for even insinuating that there was something similar between the two devices. Your posts should be removed for being inflamatory and for criticizing me personally.

I saw this product a few months ago and thought the same thing. While it's not a system I'd be interested in buying, it's exciting to see what will eventually be available for consumers down the road. And I think ATV will help out us poor people in the mean time.

Also, just a word of advice. Try not to take comments from others personally. Usually I found out that it's just some punk 13 year old who likes to talk trash behind his computer screen when he'd be scared to death of you in real life. The more you show that it's personal, the more they do it. My $.02

[fivepoint]

Well, here is what you posted... (including sic "concious"):.

Ahhh... I see, so you're starting out by criticizing my spelling. Very classy, I hope everybody takes notice... the easiest way to recognize a troll is with attacks just like this one. Taking little digs at me, should have seen it coming.



-you- are clearly implying that anyone selling that system is doing so in bad faith (i.e. the "good conscience" remark) and also therefore implying that the only reason a buyer would choose it is because he's being misled by the salesperson and therefore is a fool.


I agree that it was a mistake to indicate this. It was my gut reaction without knowing the in's and out's of the system yet. Based on the information posted here, I would now freely admit that the system has some merit, and would be the perfect solution for a very select group of consumers. I should not have indicated that anyone selling the system was doing so in bad-faith. Regardless, you are dead wrong that I was implying that he was a fool. People make decision based on the information given to them. I do however think some people are fools, especially those who put words in other people's mouths to lift up their own spirits and make themselves seem more important.



I see this all the time, people assume that something at a lower price point that has similar features makes it equal to a much higher priced product. I find that particularly amusing in an apple forum.

If you are so thin skinned that you find my legitimate objection to your personal attack on a salesperson (and a company) that provides a very high end product, then I would suggest you refrain from making such hostile comments in the future. The clear implication is that this "millionaire" friend of yours should be soooo thankful to have you around to educate him. The reality that you may not understand is that to many people with high incomes, time is more valuable than money and his installer may be right on track to provide him a legal product (your DVD rips on apple TV may not be) that is very high in the service sector.


Hahaha, wow, boy... you are just full of compliments. I find it amazing how you took one sentence that I wrote, and have already determined the type of person I am and how I operate in society. It shows great intelligence to make vague generalizations about a person based on virtually zero information.

To be honest, the only reason I told you about the friend and the conversation I had with him was to segway into the rest of the post. I gave a personal introduction to the post instead of just posting "hey, look, a $15,000 AppleTV". I am sorry if my personal story offended you, salesmen of any sort, or my apparent 'fool' friend.

My suggestion to you is to get off of your high-horse, and be helpful instead of hateful. Instead of telling me more about the system, educating me and the rest of us about its merits (LIKE SOME OF THE EARLIER POSTERS DID) than we wouldn't be having this ridiculous conversation. But instead, you choose to attack me personally, criticize my spelling of all things, and suggest that I think my own very good friend is a 'fool'. Heck, I will even admit to agreeing 100% to your point about people assuming that something at a lower price point that has similar features makes it equal to a much higher priced product... I completely agree. Like I said, it was a gut reaction, and I was glad that some people simply told me about the system and why that system was sold the way it was.

Yeah, you aren't to blame at all! :rolleyes:

[fivepoint]

I saw this product a few months ago and thought the same thing. While it's not a system I'd be interested in buying, it's exciting to see what will eventually be available for consumers down the road. And I think ATV will help out us poor people in the mean time.

Also, just a word of advice. Try not to take comments from others personally. Usually I found out that it's just some punk 13 year old who likes to talk trash behind his computer screen when he'd be scared to death of you in real life. The more you show that it's personal, the more they do it. My $.02


Very, very, good advice. Thank you. I will just try and leave it alone as of now. It is clear that he is just out to try and ruffle someone's feathers and turn my thread into something inflamatory.

Sorry if my first post offended anyone. That was not the intent... not by a long shot.

[pprior]

Ok dude, your post ticked me off because it came across to me as insulting to the salesperson and as I said it seemed to imply that only an idiot would spend that kind of money.

Obviously you didn't mean it that way, and if my subsequent responses similarly ticked you off, they weren't intended that way either. Sometimes we read too much into messages on the internet.

Apparently I misread you, and I apologize. I'm a woodworker and enjoy your desk project, so I'll cut you some extra slack there for your skills :)

The kaleidescape system is wonderful to dream about, and for 99% of readers here likely never a realistic option. I guess maybe what sets me off about these things is that there seems to be so much class warfare going on nowadays (not by you, but in general) that any attack on the choices of the wealthy just irritates me. I'm not in that category by the way, but I think America wasn't made great by those kind of attitudes (which again I'm not ascribing to you!).

Anyway, enough of my rambling. If your friend does end up with the system I'd be very interested in hearing back from you - I've demoed it but never used it in real life. If he ends up with some high end ATV application, maybe we can scope some ideas there as well. Keep us updated.

[fivepoint]

Ok dude, your post ticked me off because it came across to me as insulting to the salesperson and as I said it seemed to imply that only an idiot would spend that kind of money.

Obviously you didn't mean it that way, and if my subsequent responses similarly ticked you off, they weren't intended that way either. Sometimes we read too much into messages on the internet.

Apparently I misread you, and I apologize. I'm a woodworker and enjoy your desk project, so I'll cut you some extra slack there for your skills :)

The kaleidescape system is wonderful to dream about, and for 99% of readers here likely never a realistic option. I guess maybe what sets me off about these things is that there seems to be so much class warfare going on nowadays (not by you, but in general) that any attack on the choices of the wealthy just irritates me. I'm not in that category by the way, but I think America wasn't made great by those kind of attitudes (which again I'm not ascribing to you!).

Anyway, enough of my rambling. If your friend does end up with the system I'd be very interested in hearing back from you - I've demoed it but never used it in real life. If he ends up with some high end ATV application, maybe we can scope some ideas there as well. Keep us updated.


Well, this doesn't happen very often on the internet either... Let's call a 'truce.'

I realize that my first post wasn't worded perfectly, and again... I do apologize for that. Like I said before, it is obvious that this system has some merit for certain consumers... and that's that. To be honest, when I talk to my friend about it later, I was planning on not recommending the AppleTV for him. Bottom line, he isn't technically savvy enough, and it's that simple. Unless of course he'd rather buy digital movies over the AppleTV instead of buying DVDs...

Anyway, I completely agree with you regarding the class warfare topic as well. This particular friend of mine is the perfect example. He started his own company 20 years ago when he was working for virtuallly minum wage, and has worked his butt off during that time, turning his company into a $25million dollar/year sucess story. It is people like him that make this country a success, and until people stop thinking that all wealthy people are 'evil' and part of 'evil corporations' the warfare will never end. His success the best example of capitalism, free-market, entrepreneurship than I can think of.... and I think these things are way-undervalued by many people.

Anyway, glad we got this cleared up. This thread certainly has taken a unique twist, and went somewhere I did not expect it to! I'm also glad that you have enjoyed my 'ultimate iMac desk' project. I've had a lot of fun with it, and seeing people to enthusiastically following along on this forum has made it that much more fun!

[MikieMikie]

fivepoint,

I just took awhile to read your desk-construction thread, and wanted to thank you for sharing the process with us.

My dad made his living woodworking and, his one comment was, "It's fun to build and a bitch to finish."

Take your time.

-- Mikie

[fivepoint]

fivepoint,

I just took awhile to read your desk-construction thread, and wanted to thank you for sharing the process with us.

My dad made his living woodworking and, his one comment was, "It's fun to build and a bitch to finish."

Take your time.

-- Mikie

Absolutely love the quote... it rings so true, and I have a feeling this is a common feeling among woodworkers. Your last comment, "take your time" is also one that is pretty common. I learned this lesson early on in the process... it makes it more enjoyable, you make fewer mistakes, and half the reason you do it is to relax, so I think that makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for the support man, I do appreciate it.

[Killyp]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Kaleidescape is WAY beyond apple TV.

Show me where your apple TV can play back hundreds of DVDs from multiple rooms in the home with RAID backup all with absolutely top notch touchpad interface and incredible support (including they will rip your DVDs for you).

I own an appleTV so I'm not bashing, but please don't embarrass yourself by thinking it's even close to that system.

The Apple TV can do all the things you mention. There's nothing stopping you from keeping your iTunes library on a RAID array + backup.

The touchpad interface is also possible too if you go for a good system. B&O's system will allow you to use a touchscreen remote, and even hide the :apple:TV out of sight, heck even in a different room to the 'main' control TV.

[BoulderBum]

Downloadable rental content.
Downloadable purchased SD content.
YouTube access.
Flickr access.
iTunes integration.
Podcast support.
~$15,000 CHEAPER!!!


NOTICE: I did not say ALL customers would prefer it... I said MANY.

I agree. If I had these two units on a shelf, they were the same price and I was asked to pick one, I'd choose the Apple TV. I like that you can rip DVD's to the Kalidescape, but for the price difference you could buy every movie you wanted from iTunes 100x over without worrying about ripping.

Rentals/video podcasts/YouTube/iTunes store access make the Apple TV a more compelling choice, IMO, plus with iTunes content, you have the ability to take it with you on an iPod. The Kaledescape might have been innovative in its day, but the Apple TV is the more robust solution and the obvious winner.

You'd think that for the $15,000 price, you'd at least get the ability to rip Blu Ray content (which would be a fairly compelling feature), but it appears to only work with standard DVD's.

[NP3]

The one thing Kaleidescape's system DOES do, which the Apple TV can't, is allow you to rip commercial DVDs to the unit's hard drive legally. It was engineered specifically to use licensed CSS keys and to handle the data in a way that is in full compliance with the CSS license. Kaleidescape reportedly went through a lot of trouble to do this, but it didn't stop the DVD-CCA (the outfit that licenses the CSS encryption system) from suing them anyway. Fortunately, Kaleidescape prevailed in court (see article here (http://www.cepro.com/article/kaleidescape_prevails_in_dvd_ripping_case/)).

I bring this us because I think people around here tend to lose sight of the fact that ripping DVDs is presently, at least in the US, a crime under the DMCA. Forget what you think you know about "fair use," it doesn't apply. I'm not getting preachy about whether it's right or wrong, I'm merely pointing out that we must always remember the law is not on our side at present, and that we should continually pressure our legislators to restore "fair use" rights to private citizens who want to view their legally-purchased content from a server instead of a DVD player.

I'm really curious if it works well with Sony's latest dvds that are a PITA to rip like Casino Royale.

[VideoFreek]

I'm really curious if it works well with Sony's latest dvds that are a PITA to rip like Casino Royale.Kaleidescape keep a list (http://www.kscapeowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234) of "problem DVDs." It appears they actively work to resolve issues.

[pprior]

You'd think that for the $15,000 price, you'd at least get the ability to rip Blu Ray content (which would be a fairly compelling feature), but it appears to only work with standard DVD's.

You can't rip blu ray because it's illegal to do so. They have legal permission to store normal DVD, but my understanding is that the encryption on blu ray cannot be "broken" without being in violation of the law.

I know that's a very contentious subject, but that's why they don't offer it (yet). It's not a technical limitation, it's a legal one.

[mkrishnan]

the two products are clearly not aimed at the same "type of people" and not for (exactly) the same purposes..so why compare them? :confused:

I don't necessarily agree. The Kaleidoscope seems to have great technology behind it. Right now, they're investing a lot of money in things like addressing problem DVDs. This is something where their effort gets amortized into every unit sold without further cost to them (i.e. they have to do the same thing to make a DVD work on one Kaleidoscope or 50,000 of them). So in the long term, it's in their interest to work the technology downmarket. At $15,000, it's out of the budget of mid-range home theater enthusiasts. If they drop the price by a factor of three... which is often a 24-36 month time window in modern electronics.... $5000 is not out of the range of mid-range home theater enthusiasts. In five years, likewise, a variant of the same technology might involve just 2 or 3 TB of storage space and cost just $2000, and then be fairly realistic for many people.

[CWallace]

As to the price, yes an :apple:tv is $230, but that Xserve head-unit is going to be north of $4000 and the 12TB Promise VTrak E-Class 16x 750 SATA RAID subsystem is $15,000 so you'll need three of those to get similar capacity. :)

[andypress]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Kaleidescape is WAY beyond apple TV.

Show me where your apple TV can play back hundreds of DVDs from multiple rooms in the home with RAID backup all with absolutely top notch touchpad interface and incredible support (including they will rip your DVDs for you).

I own an appleTV so I'm not bashing, but please don't embarrass yourself by thinking it's even close to that system.

The kaleidascape does not have any remote whatsoever as part of "the system". It was likely a custom-designed interface running on a $3,000 remote. It also seems like no one here has mentioned that the kaleidascape server itself has an initial cost of $20k or so, and you must purchase more if you wish to store more. Each set top box required for an individual tv costs around $4,000.

[digitalnicotine]

OP, thanks for sharing about this device. It's out of my price range, but neat to see what's out there for those who can afford it.

In reference to the chat about ripping content (legally) for play on iPods, etc., I noticed the last Blu-ray disk I purchased came with an additional file specifically to load the film onto my iPod or PSP. I thought that was pretty awesome, and hope this is a new trend for Blu-Ray movies. BTW, the movie is Juno, and the box read:

"Simple. Fast. Portable. - With Digital Copy, enjoying a portable version of your favorite film has never been easier. Simply transfer the included file to your PC, iPod, or other compatible player and get your entertainment fix when you want, where you want!"

Then in small print, it noted it's compatible with iTunes, video iPods/iPhone, and Windows PlayForSure compatible products. It was released by Fox.

[BoulderBum]

You can't rip blu ray because it's illegal to do so. They have legal permission to store normal DVD, but my understanding is that the encryption on blu ray cannot be "broken" without being in violation of the law.

I know that's a very contentious subject, but that's why they don't offer it (yet). It's not a technical limitation, it's a legal one.

With the DMCA, they made it illegal to circumvent copy protection, so technically it's illegal to rip a DVD, too. I suspect Kaleidescape worked out some sort of licensing to do so, which might be one of the reasons it's so pricey.

Nevertheless, even if the Kaleidescape were only $230, I'd still choose the Apple TV.

The rentals/video podcasts/Flickr/YouTube capabilities are my most-used features on the Apple TV, and the Kaleidescape doesn't support any of that!

[Malfoy]

With the DMCA, they made it illegal to circumvent copy protection, so technically it's illegal to rip a DVD, too. I suspect Kaleidescape worked out some sort of licensing to do so, which might be one of the reasons it's so pricey.

Nevertheless, even if the Kaleidescape were only $230, I'd still choose the Apple TV.

The rentals/video podcasts/Flickr/YouTube capabilities are my most-used features on the Apple TV, and the Kaleidescape doesn't support any of that!

You'd pass on 32 TBs for 230??!?!:D







Note: I KNOW what you meant. I'm just giving you a had time. :)

[MikieMikie]

You can't rip blu ray because it's illegal to do so. They have legal permission to store normal DVD, but my understanding is that the encryption on blu ray cannot be "broken" without being in violation of the law.

I know that's a very contentious subject, but that's why they don't offer it (yet). It's not a technical limitation, it's a legal one.

Sorry. Here's some info.

http://www.kscapeowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236

Blu-Ray is (or will soon be) rippable by Kaleidoscope.

[BoulderBum]

You'd pass on 32 TBs for 230??!?!:D

Note: I KNOW what you meant. I'm just giving you a had time. :)

Well, maybe not for the resale value, but definately for the capabilities. I think the proper architecture for a digital home entertainment system is to have a scalable home NAS separate from the media streamer so, e.g. an HP MediaSmart Server (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FEX470-MediaSmart-Server-Windows-Drive%2Fdp%2FB000UY1WSK%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Delectronics%26qid%3D1210394649%26sr%3D8-1&tag=colsblo04-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)storing content that gets streamed over the network to an Apple TV which simply serves as the interface to your video/music collection/portal to internet content.

[BoulderBum]

Sorry. Here's some info.

http://www.kscapeowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236

Blu-Ray is (or will soon be) rippable by Kaleidoscope.

See, THAT's a feature that would actually differentiate the Kaleidoscape from the Apple TV. Apple TV's limitation right now is HD quality content.

I still wouldn't pay $15,000 for such a system, though. I'm personally waiting for a good HD PC-to-TV technology which I consider more flexible, though not as well integrated.