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MacRumors
Nov 21, 2003, 02:02 PM
Appleinsider claims that the 90nm PowerPC was officially "taped out" and ready for production.

According to this report, the new chip is said to use a Strained Silicon on Insulator (SSOI) technology. The new technology offers speed boosts and decreased power requirements for upcoming chips by combining Strained Silicon and Silicon on Insultaor (SOI) technology. However, according tocomments from Bijan Davari, vice president of technology development at IBM Microelectronics, IBM is not planning on introducing SSOI technology until 65nm -- which is expected in 2005. This discrepancy raises questions about the validity of this new report.

However, that being said, 90nm PowerPC 970 technology is imminent -- with IBM offering a presentation on the 90nm PowerPC 970 in February 2004 at the 2004 ISSCC Conference.

The 90nm PowerPC 970 likely represents the "GPUL2" that was referenced by eWeek in July. eWeek expected the GPUL2 to be introduced by mid-2004

yoman
Nov 21, 2003, 02:06 PM
Seems far fetched to me

Karim
Nov 21, 2003, 02:06 PM
Powerbook G5 here we come! MWSF '04 ?? I hoooope so.

AmigoMac
Nov 21, 2003, 02:07 PM
Powerbook G5, I'm waiting for you...:D

Ambrose Chapel
Nov 21, 2003, 02:08 PM
this would finally prove that the days of being kept down by motorola are over

for the power macs at least...
;)

macMaestro
Nov 21, 2003, 02:08 PM
Hmm...

The CEO or AppleInsider, the CEO or AppleInsider.

Sorry, but I believe the IBM's CEO on this one. SSOI in 2005.

nagromme
Nov 21, 2003, 02:10 PM
No PBG5 yet. Having the chips ready is ONE factor--and good for future PMG5s or even iMacs (neither of which seems likely to be refreshed as soon as Jan). But Apple has other engineering challenges to solve and work through.

My pending order for a PowerBook G4 in no way biases my predictions :)

arn
Nov 21, 2003, 02:17 PM
small correction on the article. SSOI was not introduced in 2001. That was just Strained Silicon. SSOI is Strained Silicon + SOI.

arn

@HomeNow
Nov 21, 2003, 02:17 PM
I wouldnt be suprised if IBM were to deliver this technology early. A year early is streatching it a bit. so I wont hold my breath.

Lancetx
Nov 21, 2003, 02:18 PM
Yep, I'm just hoping we'll see the G5 PowerBooks and iMacs by the 2nd half of 2004 at this point. Anything sooner than that I don't think would be to realistic to expect.

Bunzi2k4
Nov 21, 2003, 02:42 PM
i hope this is false... don't get me wrong its great to have pb g5's, but i just made a bet with my friend that powerbook g5's won't make it in wwdc 04... o well... i thought that there was gonna be new imacs, but new ones already came out... so... i don't know, what will come out in wwdc 04?

AmigoMac
Nov 21, 2003, 02:49 PM
Speed for Powermacs, next summer, every PM will go Dual-Processor from now on, ok, after they find a replacement for the single 1.6. MWSF 05, PB G5, of course single processor, at the 05 summer, they will announce Mac OS X (10.5) going 64 bit totally for PM's and PB's ... until that happens, every mac will get just a speed bump after we see Emac/iBook at 1.25 GHz... and iMac at 1.33 or 1.42 GHz, of course there will be those speeds for PBs as well until they reach G5, can see some 60 / 80 GB iPods :) ... prices shouldn't go really high, it won't be new technology at all, just some HD increase, USB 2.0 and FW800 for all, VGA will go away, guess, 12" PB with Gigabit ethernet and some time in between, a new wireless mouse with some track-pad like the ipod for scrolling - it could be one button :) - If I have something new, I'll post again, I didn't want to go off topic but I'm really waiting a PB G5 like most of you... sorry for my long lines but, sometimes you have to tell your dreams someone...:D

gwuMACaddict
Nov 21, 2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by @HomeNow
A year early is streatching it a bit. so I wont hold my breath.

a bit is prolly an understatement. as nice as this sounds i would be very very surprised if it turns out to be true. IBM must really working overtime, considering all these rumors about the smaller 970 and the new 980. seems like its all right around the corner

TyleRomeo
Nov 21, 2003, 02:56 PM
regardless all these rumors are definately a good thing. Some of them are going to come true and 2004 might just be the year of the Desktop. Two G5 Powermacs and one G5 iMac.

Tyler

stockscalper
Nov 21, 2003, 03:11 PM
Purrrfect for the new Powerbooks! Now, while we're dreaming about new PB's what are some enhancements you would like to see besides 64 bit processing?

For me it's higher screen resolution, greater battery life, faster ram, faster front side bus (167mz is ridiculous), 72rpm hard drives and larger L2 cache.

Then you would truly have a desktop replacement machine. With the current crop of PB's all you've got is a desktop replacement for last year's imac.

sethypoo
Nov 21, 2003, 03:32 PM
This should work, I think the PBG5 will come out in about a year and a half, give or take.

About then I'll be ready to buy a new laptop, maybe later.

I sure hope that they can fix the heating problems.

:) :rolleyes: :D Can't wait!

vannote
Nov 21, 2003, 03:35 PM
Daddy needs a new PowerBook...

peejay
Nov 21, 2003, 03:43 PM
Just so everyone knows, "taped out" is when the designs for the photomasks are finalized and sent to the mask house on a tape. What still needs to happen after this: The masks (about twenty different layers) are made and tested, the process is established (all process testing was probably done in the fab with a set of test masks, but some kinks will develop with the real masks), engineering wafer starts, then production starts. When wafers are complete, there's all the back-end processing, like dicing and packaging. I worked in wafer fabs (including IBM) for thirteen years, and I can tell you many things can still go wrong. Cross your fingers, and we'll have G5 powerbooks by March.

blogo
Nov 21, 2003, 03:55 PM
does a 1,5ghz g5 produce more heat than a 1,5ghz g4?

sharky2313
Nov 21, 2003, 03:59 PM
powerbook here I come :)

Rocketman
Nov 21, 2003, 04:08 PM
Wouldn't it be cool if at MacWorld you arrived to a wall of G5 Rev B (and NEW iMac) boxes ready for deliveryand by the end of the show they were all DELIVERED to attendees?

Sounding more practical all the time.

Rocketman

SiliconAddict
Nov 21, 2003, 04:10 PM
Did anyone else have an almost orgasmic experience at the mention of 65nm. :D Mmmmmmmm ;)

killmoms
Nov 21, 2003, 04:12 PM
I, for one, don't understand why everyone's so down on the new PowerBooks and so incredibly eager for the PowerBook G5. I just got the 1.25GHz PB 15"and it's quite a capable little computer. I've been consistantly amazed at what it can do despite its "low" MHz rating. It feels just as fast as my Athlon 2000+ desktop from 1.5 years ago (which is still a decent system in that it can play the latest games). Final Cut editing is quite possible, and to be honest, how often is a video professional going to be editing on a laptop?

Laptops are great for what they're for: travelling word processing and internet access, with the occasional game and such thrown in for good measure. Even "pro" users on "pro" laptops don't do their main work on said machines. They'll have G5 towers back in the studio for the real workhorse applications.

The G4 is getting tired, yes, but that doesn't make the current crop of PowerBooks worthless by any stretch of the imagination.

--Cless

ITR 81
Nov 21, 2003, 04:36 PM
I still say Apple will release a 1.42 G4 PB before the G5 comes out. I expect the new G4 to show up in probably next 3 months.

I'm thinking the G5 will come in 3 flavors.
1.6,1.8, and 2.0
To make this happen I'm figureing the G5 PM's will probably be on the 980 PPC by then.

TMay
Nov 21, 2003, 04:39 PM
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/34124.html

I'm inclined to believe this, but for another reason. IBM sees Intel(HP) in a bit of a predicament on the Itanium II, and with both the Power5 coming on line, Opterons in the mid range, and PPC 970's in blades, IBM looks to have a very solid 64 bit lineup. Keeping the pressure on with 90nm will reduce costs and drive applications to 64 bit hardware that much faster, benefitting everyone but Intel, who aren't keen to risk damage to Itanium with a 64 bit x86 product.

Intel may not have a choice if AMD gets some momentum on Athlon64 and Opteron.

Naturally, Apple benefits with speedbumps and G5 Powerbooks.

diehldun
Nov 21, 2003, 04:53 PM
i've already delayed purchasing a new Powerbook 17" G4 for several months, anticipating a new G5 model; waited until around Nov. 26 (my birthday), was determined for sure to get it on the 28th (Apple Store event). but now, after hearing these news, i don't know if it's worth waiting just a few more months...

WHY CAN'T THEY JUST INTRODUCE IT AT THE APPLE STORE EVENT ON NOVEMBER 28TH, 2003????????

arn
Nov 21, 2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by diehldun
i've already delayed purchasing a new Powerbook 17" G4 for several months, anticipating a new G5 model; waited until around Nov. 26 (my birthday), was determined for sure to get it on the 28th (Apple Store event). but now, after hearing these news, i don't know if it's worth waiting just a few more months...


This is not "news". These are possibly unfounded rumors that say nothing about the possibility of a G5 PowerBook.

Steve Jobs has stated that he hopes to get a PowerBook G5 done by end of 2004.

arn

killmoms
Nov 21, 2003, 05:05 PM
i've already delayed purchasing a new Powerbook 17" G4 for several months, anticipating a new G5 model; waited until around Nov. 26 (my birthday), was determined for sure to get it on the 28th (Apple Store event). but now, after hearing these news, i don't know if it's worth waiting just a few more months...
Dude, just go ahead and get it. I think that a G5 PowerBook even by WWDC of next year is optomistic. Before the end of the next year means just that, but I think the emphasis on "end" means closer to there than here. ~_^

--Cless

SiliconAddict
Nov 21, 2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Cless
I just got the 1.25GHz PB 15"and it's quite a capable little computer.
--Cless

That's the same thing that was said of the G4 before the G5 blew it out of the water. capable is a word you don't apply to the G5 is it?

There is an expectation, and IMHO rightly so, that the CPU between the pro series of desktops and the pro series of laptops should be at least in the same class if not the same speed. The G4 is now in the iMac, iBook, PowerBook lines with the G5 PowerMac striding ahead and to be honest I'm not going to hold my breath expecting any major leaps in performance with Moto's next round of speed bumps. Maybe in realworld use the current PB G4's are "good enough" but at this point its about expectations not real world performance.
*shrugs* Or that's my take on it at any rate.

killmoms
Nov 21, 2003, 05:19 PM
Maybe in realworld use the current PB G4's are "good enough" but at this point its about expectations not real world performance.
And my point is that that is the primary fallacy of this entire argument. If it isn't about real-world performance, it certainly should be! That's what important! Does is do what you need it to do? If yes, no problem. That "image" or "expectations" are more important than effectiveness is ridiculous, borderline asinine.

Keep in mind also that, despite the G3 laptops and desktops premiering at the same time, the G4 didn't make it into the PowerBooks until almost one and a half YEARS after its desktop debut. People seem to treat the G5 notable absence from the PowerBook like it's some sort of insult to the community.

Wake up folks, putting a modern, power-hungry and (literally) hot chip into a thin, sexy notebook is difficult! It was hard for the G4, it will be hard for the G5, and will likely be hard for every new chip after this. Apple won't sacrifice their high-standard of design to appease the performance zealots, who (in stark contrast to this website) don't make up the majority of Mac users.

The G5 will appear in a PowerBook, and Apple's not sitting around slowing the process. But it will take time, and that's all their is to it.

--Cless

dongmin
Nov 21, 2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Cless
Dude, just go ahead and get it. I think that a G5 PowerBook even by WWDC of next year is optomistic. Before the end of the next year means just that, but I think the emphasis on "end" means closer to there than here. ~_^

--Cless

People seem to be making a one to one connection between 90nm 970s and G5 PowerBooks, but I'm not too sure about this. There may be other issues, like the motherboard or new batter/fuel technologies, that may delay the G5 PowerBook until later than sooner. There's been a plenty of rumors surrounding the 970/980 development, but I don't think there's been one rumor recently regarding G5 PowerBooks. All I remember is MacWhispers making guarantees about G5 PowerBooks making an appearance in the summer. And of course Steve Jobs saying they 'hope' to have G5s in the PBs by the end of 2004.

tex210
Nov 21, 2003, 05:29 PM
I would say go for it... Financially tough times have been the only thing stopping me from upgrading, But I'm still getting all of my work done on my old little G3. I think the G4 has plenty of life left in it, at least until the os becomes AI eccentric, and has things to think about while I'm working on something. I think there's at least another five years of G4 for most people and ten for many. It will probably be another 2-3 years before you can only get a G5 in an apple computer (not counting gobi+altivec in the handheld), and the g6 or higher will be in the pro-line.

Mr.Hey
Nov 21, 2003, 05:36 PM
OMG! OMG!!!! this is happening to quickly ....slow it down Apple, what kind of consumer do you take me for, I'm not that kind of person.... :p

rog
Nov 21, 2003, 05:36 PM
This is inconsistent with everything else I've heard and I know because my sister's mother's son who has been to an Apple Store informed me that Apple instead plans to cut costs severely by using the hundreds of thousands of discarded 601 100 MHz processors and releasing machines with 64 processors for a total of 6.4 GHz of power! G5 Shmee-five!

copperpipe
Nov 21, 2003, 06:58 PM
the rumors are certainly flying lately, eh? Well, as I sit here killing some time, I figure I'll throw down some predictions:

the new eMac II released late January
- low end 867 g4 for $599
- high end 1.25 g4 w/superdrive for $??

New Powermacs released in March
- high end dual 2.5 gz
Headless mac released in March
- 1.6 G5 for $899

New Powerbooks released in July/August (Macworld)
1.6 G5 to 1.8 G5's

New iMacs released in October
1.6 G5 to 1.8 G5

New iBooks released in October
to 1.42 G4

TomSmithMacEd
Nov 21, 2003, 08:56 PM
I think it would be nice to see dual g4 powerbooks. I've never heard of a laptop that has dual processors. I'm sure there is such thing, but who knows. It would at least tie all you over until late 2004 when the Powerbook G5 will truly come out.

Catfish_Man
Nov 21, 2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Eple
does a 1,5ghz g5 produce more heat than a 1,5ghz g4?

Yes, if a 1.5GHz G4 existed (it'd have to be the newer MPC7457, which is lower heat than most existing G4s, which are slightly lower heat than the G5).

wizard
Nov 21, 2003, 10:04 PM
HI there;


From my perspective you may be better off getting a new laptop now. To be truely effective in a laptop the 970+ would have to cut power usage by more than 50% at 2GHz. I'm not ot certain that IBM will be able to get that much of a savings and even if it did you will still have a power hungery processor relative to the G4. Lets face it on the optimistic side 50% of the current 970 may place us at 25 watts, this is still excessive for a portable and I find it hard to believe that IBM has so many ticks up its sleeve that it will do much better than 50% power reduction.

As far as the G4 goes I think we will see one more rev.

There are also rumors floating around that IBM & Apple are working on a very low power chip for portables and such. This could be a ways off, but might indicate that Apple does not have any intention at all of putting a 970 into a portable.

DAve


Originally posted by diehldun
i've already delayed purchasing a new Powerbook 17" G4 for several months, anticipating a new G5 model; waited until around Nov. 26 (my birthday), was determined for sure to get it on the 28th (Apple Store event). but now, after hearing these news, i don't know if it's worth waiting just a few more months...

WHY CAN'T THEY JUST INTRODUCE IT AT THE APPLE STORE EVENT ON NOVEMBER 28TH, 2003????????

isgoed
Nov 22, 2003, 04:49 AM
here is an old roadmap from december 2001 which describes what the G6 will look like right now:

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2001dec/bch20011203009125.htm

visor
Nov 22, 2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by diehldun
i've already delayed purchasing a new Powerbook 17" G4 for several months, anticipating a new G5 model; waited until around Nov. 26 (my birthday), was determined for sure to get it on the 28th (Apple Store event). but now, after hearing these news, i don't know if it's worth waiting just a few more months...


I'm already saving to get one for Chrismas. 04 of course... the G5 won't make it into the PB before the end of 04

visor
Nov 22, 2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
There is an expectation, and IMHO rightly so, that the CPU between the pro series of desktops and the pro series of laptops should be at least in the same class if not the same speed.

The Heat sinks in the PMG5 are bigger than a large fist - what are you goint to do? have the CPU connected via Firewire and put it in the fridge? Or do you prefer a little jet turbo compressor to cool the g5?

We won't see any 13nm and probably not even 90 nm G5's in the 'books. With 65nm we're getting close though.

visor
Nov 22, 2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by wizard
HI there;


Lets face it on the optimistic side 50% of the current 970 may place us at 25 watts, this is still excessive for a portable and I find it hard to believe that IBM has so many ticks up its sleeve that it will do much better than 50% power reduction.


check out this thread for real energy measurements on the g5.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47636

It seems that the g5 peaks at about 75W right now - just think about the cooling you need to do to keep the die from dieing..

wizard
Nov 22, 2003, 12:04 PM
An interesting reference you have there visor. While the methods used to measure power usage do not reflect just the 970's usage they do support my argument, which is that the 970 would need a rahter huge power drop in a laptop revision. This is not likely to come from a move to 90NM only.

I think we will see a G5 class laptop when the 9x0 processor has a built in memory interface and HyperTransport. Maybe that is not to far away, I don't really no, all I do know is that the present chip set that makes up the G5 will not stuff nicely into a laptop. This is not to underestimate Apples other options that it could come up with.

The simplest thing that Apple could do is to get Motorola to supply them with a G4 that has an on board memory interface and runs it at 1.6GHz. That is a machine I'd buy real quick. The other options are a completely new low power chip that IBM/Apple are rumored to be working on or a new archetecture.


Thanks
dave



Originally posted by visor
check out this thread for real energy measurements on the g5.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47636

It seems that the g5 peaks at about 75W right now - just think about the cooling you need to do to keep the die from dieing..

nek
Nov 22, 2003, 05:58 PM
(January - March)
Xserve G5
1.6GHz, dual 1.6GHz G5, up to 4GB 400MHz DDR SDRAM, up to 4 x 250GB SATA hard drives, 2 PCI-X slots
Xserve RAID
up to 14 x 250GB SATA drives = 3.5TB
PowerMac G5
dual 1.8GHz, dual 2.0GHz, dual 2.4GHz
optional pro graphics card

(April - June)
PowerBook G4
1.33GHz, 1.42GHz, 1.5GHz G4
iMac
1.4GHz G5, 1.6GHz G5
467-533MHz bus (1/3 processor speed)
better graphic card
eMac
1.25GHz G4
167MHz bus

(July - September)
PowerMac G5
dual 2.4GHz, dual 2.8GHz, dual 3.0GHz
533MHz DDR II
320GB hard drives
Xserve G5
2.0GHz, dual 2.0GHz G5

(October - November)
PowerBook G5
1.6GHz G5, 1.8GHz G5
800-900MHz bus
iBook G4
1.0GHz, 1.25GHz, 1.33GHz G4

manu chao
Nov 24, 2003, 05:02 AM
It's funny that everybody is always expecting Apple to let them have the cake and eat it. On the PC side there are these slim, lightweight laptops with long battery live and so on, and there are the high-end laptops (be it with a Pentium 4 M, aka Centrino, or a Mobile Pentium 4), high-end graphic card (once that is used you can't technically speak of a Centrino anymore, since a Centrino is a Pentium 4 M with an integrated graphic card), DVD-writer and so on which draw a lot more power and are no longer lightweight or slim.

A 1.7 Ghz Pentium 4 M (Centrino) with a high-end graphic card, is a good comprise, admittedly, but not the real high-end in performance terms; a 1.7 Ghz Centrino is comparable to a 2.4 Mobile Pentium 4, the latter chip being available up to 3.2 Ghz.

Can you blame Apple for not offering the equivalent of a 3.2 Ghz Mobile Pentium 4 (at 2.4 Ghz consuming 60W, throttled down to 1.6 Ghz when on battery still consuming 30 W, www.macinfo.de) , a much heavier, hotter laptop than a current Powerbook?
Even the Centrino uses 25 W at 1.7 Ghz, though only 12 W when throttled down when on battery. The 7447/57 consumes less than 10 W at 1Ghz (link (e-www.motorola.com/files/32bit/doc/app_note/AN2436.pdf)) and also has the ability to be throttled down.

I suspect that benchmarks showing the Centrino to be vastly supperior to a 1.25 Ghz Powerbook compare plugged-in performance, once running on battery the difference should narrow noticeably.

manitoubalck
Nov 24, 2003, 06:12 AM
Time will tell, but the futrue is bright, all we need now is a 64-bit operating system.

rjstanford
Nov 24, 2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by manu chao
I suspect that benchmarks showing the Centrino to be vastly supperior to a 1.25 Ghz Powerbook compare plugged-in performance, once running on battery the difference should narrow noticeably. Narrow, but not close. And that's assuming that you don't throttle down the G4. Besides, I would hazard a guess that most business laptops spend a good 90%+ of their time plugged in. Many personal laptops do as well. I know that I have one because I can use it at home (often plugged in), at work (almost always plugged in), in meetings (generally unplugged and unstressed) and on the road (plugged in for hotels, unplugged in the air (although that's changing)). So comparing plugged-in performance isn't unrealistic.

For software developers (for example), a modern intel 1.7ghz laptop with a good harddrive, memory, and a decent display (1400x1050 or better) makes a pretty darn good only-machine. The 1.33ghz G4 laptops just aren't there yet as far as raw power, which does make a difference if you're a) doing lots of compile cycles, or b) running large test databases that take a lot of muscle to execute.

Heck, if you wait for a good deal, you can get a good quality 1.7ghz Centrino laptop with all the goodies for well under $2,000. Admittedly, the PowerBook has more style, but for some (especially commercial customers), style is valued less than substance. Not ignored, but not the most important factor either.

Having said that, I would love for Apple to come out with competitively powered portable hardware, especially with Oracle, et al, supporting OSX. They just have to stop making it competitive with 1-year-old intels at higher price points, that's all.

-Richard

ps: scaling from http://intel.com/products/mobiletechnology/docs/performance_brief.pdf?iid=ipp_perf+perf_brief& (which is pretty accurate), the 1.7ghz P-M is closer to a 3.0ghz P4M. This is borne out in many other 3rd party tests. Don't forget that the presumably superior replacement for this chip is due out in Q1 of 2004 - its been out for quite a while now.

legion
Nov 25, 2003, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by manu chao
(be it with a Pentium 4 M, aka Centrino, or a Mobile Pentium 4), high-end graphic card (once that is used you can't technically speak of a Centrino anymore, since a Centrino is a Pentium 4 M with an integrated graphic card)

NO! I don't know where this piece of misinformation came from, but I've seen it floating around the Mac websites for a few days now.

There is no requirement for a Centrino notebook to have an integrated graphics card.

The requirements for Centrino qualification from Intel are the following:
1) Intel Pentium M processor (currently from 900Mhz to 1.7Ghz)
2) Intel ProWireless miniPCI card (currently only 802.11b standard)
3) The 855PM or 855GM mobo chipset.

I think that last one is throwing people for a loop. The 855PM does not have an integrated graphics card, which is why Intel has it available and this chipset supports AGP 4X GPUs. The 855GM does have an integrated graphics card (I believe it is referred to as "Intel Extreme Graphics" but ATI will be doing the next set of integrated GPUs for Intel and they are promising at least ATI 9200 performance)

As for performance, just because a P-M laptop is unplugged doesn't mean it is throttled down. It is an adaptive processor than ramps up and down very fast. If processing demand is placed on the processor, it will run at full speed (as high as it can run plugged in) so the PB to Centrino laptops comparisons are vaild. Now if you handicap the P-M and set it forced to "very slow" mode, then it will stay throttled down when unplugged