Desktop OS X Multi-Touch Framework Concept, Demo

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

While users wait for Apple to implement a full desktop version of Multitouch for Mac OS X, some enterprising users have begun development of a 3rd party framework for full screen multitouch interaction.

Lux (http://nuiman.com/log/view/lux/), a 3rd party framework developed by Christian Moore, provides "true multitouch interaction" in Mac OS X and other operating systems. Developed using Flash and C++ (flash for rapid development), Moore says the framework is open-source.

Apple's UITouch its very, very well designed. It runs at the core level, while ours is more a free environment to develop on top... to learn about multitouch and share code.


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/05/16/desktop-osx-multi-touch-framework-concept-demo/)

[Shasterball]

OK, that's pretty damn impressive. We'll all soon be there.

[bennyboi]

It would be cool to have multi-touch available ALONGSIDE keyboard shortcuts for apps like Logic / FCP / Motion / Color. Though we wouldn't get tactile feedback, I'd certainly enjoy on the fly mixing on the Logic faders, rearranging clips in fcp. Again- all these features I would only want alongside current offerings, as I am a but a lab mouse trained to use the current peripherals. :apple::cool::apple::D

[kster]

i cant see how this will be applicable to the day ol' consumer.

especially any tablet... those are more for commercial uses (hosipitals, restaurants, pro editors, graphic designers etc)

when im at home, on a desk or gettin cozy on the couch (surfing, email or chatting) - i dont want to be reaching in front of me to be touching my monitor / tablet. its very unnatural.

[DMann]

This brings Multi-Touch to a new level - rumor has it that the next generation of iMacs will implement multi-touch both on screen and also using a multi-touch mouse. Perhaps this is behind the reason that iMacs went all glossy.

i cant see how this will be applicable to the day ol' consumer.

especially any tablet... those are more for commercial uses (hosipitals, restaurants, pro editors, graphic designers etc)

when im at home, on a desk or gettin cozy on the couch (surfing, email or chatting) - i dont want to be reaching in front of me to be touching my monitor / tablet. its very unnatural.

Very true - I much prefer remote control for that, but for photo rendering, a combination of mouse and multi-touch can be really useful.

[longofest]

I don't know where to get the framework... couldn't find it on any of the sites gizmodo linked to. If anyone can find it, paste the link please.

Of course, making the input device is a bit kludgy :)

[arn]

and the guy apparently built his own multi-touch hardware

arn

[inkswamp]

Of course, making the input device is a bit kludgy :)

Yeah, well let's hope Apple doesn't take any design cues from that. The last thing I want is an all-new "cardboard and tape" look to my Mac. :D

[DMann]

Yeah, well let's hope Apple doesn't take any design cues from that. The last thing I want is an all-new "cardboard and tape" look to my Mac. :D

Have you seen the 'Surface' computer by MS? A $10,000 1.5 ton box filled with infrared sensors, cameras, projectors, lenses, supported by mechanical arms driven by electronic engines. It now seems outdated before having the chance to reach the market. Once again, one giant leap forward for technology, one small step backward for MS.

[blairbeckwith]

This is simply amazing. Motivated people never cease to amaze me. THis is just downright inspirational.

[tgildred]

Brilliant. If only there was some way they could implement this in a coffee table...

[gcmexico]

I would totally buy the tablet if it did anything like that...there are always those that say what is the point...but once the new tech comes out, and people use it, then the naysayers are I can't believe people used keyboards before, they were so backwards!! I know I feel like that when I use the Iphone to text...once u use that, u'll never want to use the keyboard again...that video was off the hook!!

[JohnnyQuest]

I realize most of you all aren't going to believe this, but I thought I would share. My Photography teacher today (I'm a Junior in High School), that a class of 2007 student's father worked to design some of the brushes in Photoshop. He then said that this father is now designing new tools for a touch version of Photoshop, working with Apple, supposedly. I found this VERY interesting.

[EagerDragon]

Very cool, should work better if written by Apple.

I would totally buy the tablet if it did anything like that...there are always those that say what is the point...but once the new tech comes out, and people use it, then the naysayers are I can't believe people used keyboards before, they were so backwards!! I know I feel like that when I use the Iphone to text...once u use that, u'll never want to use the keyboard again...that video was off the hook!!

Naysayers are those with no imagination. They can only think of keyboards and mouse. I remember when those Naysayers were not too conformable with the idea of using a mouse or a graphical interface.

They have no vision, when all one has is a hammer, all problems look like nails.

When one opens our mind and start using our imagination, one discover that interacting with our hands with graphical objects is very natural and efficient.

But the Naysayers would argue otherwise and see no use for this.

[twoodcc]

great things are coming!

[rockinrocker]

makes me wonder how a full sized touched screen keyboard would actually feel and how much easier it would be to use accurately compared with iphone/touch.

[DMann]

Brilliant. If only there was some way they could implement this in a coffee table...

I've got mine of pre-order - ETA Fall/2011

[Kwill]

Very cool, should work better if written by Apple.


I believe Apple already posted a job opening (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/05/13/apple-hiring-for-advanced-multitouch-displays/) for this guy!

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

Brilliant. If only there was some way they could implement this in a coffee table...

That would definitely be cool.

[JeffDM]

i cant see how this will be applicable to the day ol' consumer.

especially any tablet... those are more for commercial uses (hosipitals, restaurants, pro editors, graphic designers etc)

when im at home, on a desk or gettin cozy on the couch (surfing, email or chatting) - i dont want to be reaching in front of me to be touching my monitor / tablet. its very unnatural.

That way would be tiring, but I don't think you'd necessarily be reaching any farther than you would your keyboard. I think because of the CRT bulk, we've gotten used to vertical displays, but the touch system would lend itself to slanted use, where your keyboard & mouse might have been. I wouldn't write it off so quickly either. Sometimes ideas take a while to catch on. Heck, it really took the Mac platform 25 years to really catch on. But if a multitouch notebook turns out to have a viable killer app, I would expect it to be accepted very quickly.

[Peace]

The most useful apps for multi-touch :

iChat conferencing.
Widgets.
Controlling your Apple TV.
Streaming video/audio to your Apple TV/widescreen TV.
Photos.
Spreadsheets on the go.
Presentations on the go.
Synching your Mac or iPhone.

ANY audio/video streaming to any Apple Mac via Airport or WiFi.

The list goes on.

[k2spitfire88]

Yeah, well let's hope Apple doesn't take any design cues from that. The last thing I want is an all-new "cardboard and tape" look to my Mac. :D

really? I thought that it would be awesome. Not only would it be good for the environment (as carboard easily degrades, or can be burned, which may not be so good;) ) but people can paint it any color they want! Cardboard and tape=awesomness! :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, this looks pretty sweet. Can't wait to see it implemented on a machine that was built to run that way, a la star trek computers. I am pretty excited.

[Kwill]

The most useful apps for multi-touch :

iChat conferencing.
Widgets.
Controlling your Apple TV.
Streaming video/audio to your Apple TV/widescreen TV.
Photos.
Spreadsheets on the go.
Presentations on the go.
Synching your Mac or iPhone.

ANY audio/video streaming to any Apple Mac via Airport or WiFi.

The list goes on.

Don't forget CSI Miami.

[aLoC]

when im at home, on a desk or gettin cozy on the couch (surfing, email or chatting) - i dont want to be reaching in front of me to be touching my monitor / tablet. its very unnatural.

I don't think Apple will make the monitor touch sensitive, as you say, your arms would get tired.

I think they'll make a computer that lays flat on your desk, size of a dinner tray, thin as an MacBook Air. The Microsoft table without the table.

[DMann]

I don't think Apple will make the monitor touch sensitive, as you say, your arms would get tired.

I think they'll make a computer that lays flat on your desk, size of a dinner tray, thin as an MacBook Air. The Microsoft table without the table.

Sounds like a Multi-Touch Tablet is on the horizon.

[aLoC]

Sounds like a Multi-Touch Tablet is on the horizon.

I think of a tablet as something handheld, about the size of a piece of legal paper. What I suspect Apple will make is something bigger, flatter and more tray-like. Maybe 24". But I don't have any inside info.

[Peace]

i cant see how this will be applicable to the day ol' consumer.

especially any tablet... those are more for commercial uses (hosipitals, restaurants, pro editors, graphic designers etc)

when im at home, on a desk or gettin cozy on the couch (surfing, email or chatting) - i dont want to be reaching in front of me to be touching my monitor / tablet. its very unnatural.

From what you describe it sounds like you are either "surfing,email or chatting" using a laptop or iPhone on the couch.

Imagine not having that big clunky keyboard and area gone. Just tap on an app and there you go!
If your chatting the multi-touch keyboard area would be larger allowing for more accurate and easier "typing". If you're video chatting via iChat there's no need for a physical keyboard.

Seems more natural to me.

[JNB]

Freaking amazing. This guy is working for Apple by the end of the quarter.

[D4F]

So inventive...:rolleyes:
That's a copy/paste from Microsoft.

[Rot'nApple]

and the guy apparently built his own multi-touch hardware

arn


I'm starting mine... already got the cardboard box... :)

[Rot'nApple]

Brilliant. If only there was some way they could implement this in a coffee table...

Saw off a few inches for MS 'Surface". ;)

[Marble]

Quite neat looking - seems like this tech would be especially good for parsing lots of similar data. Still, for writing you're going to want a keyboard in addition, and for most tasks I can't imagine a finger ever being more precise a pointer than the mouse.

Navigating the filesystem and using the OS X GUI would be a dream with a system like this, though.

[bmk]

From what you describe it sounds like you are either "surfing,email or chatting" using a laptop or iPhone on the couch.

Imagine not having that big clunky keyboard and area gone. Just tap on an app and there you go!
If your chatting the multi-touch keyboard area would be larger allowing for more accurate and easier "typing". If you're video chatting via iChat there's no need for a physical keyboard.

Seems more natural to me.

You have got to be joking, right? There is no way on earth that tying onto a multi touch screen would be as fast or natural as typing on a conventional keyboard. And it's not just because it's a new concept and we're not used to it. Try typing with your hands at near vertical and see how easy it is. Yes, if you're the kind of person who wants to type one-fingered monosyllabic replies on a chat site, maybe it would be fun, but otherwise it's a no starter. (Think about how you'd insert the cursor into a word on screen if you wanted to correct the spelling - your finger would obscure the point at which you wanted to do the insert. That is just one of a thousand common actions that would have be solved first before a real switch from mouse to multi-touch screen functionality could be effected.)

You also completely underestimate what is involved in porting a sytem interface which has been entirely mouse and kepboard operated since its inception, into an interface which is fully-functional through touch (there seems to be an oversimplification in general here, between the multi-touch capabilities offered by a track-pad and the notion of a touch screen that would fulfill all the functions previously carried out by mouse/keyboard - the two things are very different).

[Maldini]

So inventive...:rolleyes:
That's a copy/paste from Microsoft.
I'm with you on that, Apple are the leaders of innovation..but this time Microsoft was first..

[Gee4orce]

Another desktop mutitouch demo that fails totally to demonstrate anything actually useful.

Also, I shudder at the thought of Flash becoming an application development framework (already happening, with Adobe's online Photoshop and word processor) - you can kiss goodbye all those years of interoperability and unified look and feel, keyboard shortcuts, cut 'n' paste, drag 'n' drop, unified spell checking, and everything else that we take for granted on Mac OS X.

I tried to test out the Flash based word processor yesterday - I got as far as the registration screen, and gave up when I realised that the scroll box that contains the Ts&Cs didn't respond to my scroll wheel, and had a non-standard scroller too. Not a good start.

I really wish Flash rolled over and died. It's an abomination. Here's hoping that Apple dusts down WebObjects and turns it into .Net-Cocoa or something. Anything to save us from a future of flash UIs....

[fabian9]

Also, I shudder at the thought of Flash becoming an application development framework (already happening, with Adobe's online Photoshop and word processor) - you can kiss goodbye all those years of interoperability and unified look and feel, keyboard shortcuts, cut 'n' paste, drag 'n' drop, unified spell checking, and everything else that we take for granted on Mac OS X.

The way that I understood it is that he did it on flash only because it's faster to prototype using flash. something to show people... i doubt the final apps would be flash UIs?

[Brianstorm91]

Is there much advantage to MultiTouch for the average consumer?

It seems like a far more pro-app thing to me, short of little gimmicks and quirks around OS X.

[Peace]

You have got to be joking, right? There is no way on earth that tying onto a multi touch screen would be as fast or natural as typing on a conventional keyboard. And it's not just because it's a new concept and we're not used to it. Try typing with your hands at near vertical and see how easy it is. Yes, if you're the kind of person who wants to type one-fingered monosyllabic replies on a chat site, maybe it would be fun, but otherwise it's a no starter. (Think about how you'd insert the cursor into a word on screen if you wanted to correct the spelling - your finger would obscure the point at which you wanted to do the insert. That is just one of a thousand common actions that would have be solved first before a real switch from mouse to multi-touch screen functionality could be effected.)

You also completely underestimate what is involved in porting a sytem interface which has been entirely mouse and kepboard operated since its inception, into an interface which is fully-functional through touch (there seems to be an oversimplification in general here, between the multi-touch capabilities offered by a track-pad and the notion of a touch screen that would fulfill all the functions previously carried out by mouse/keyboard - the two things are very different).

It wouldn't be built and designed for people that just type.

[attila]

I think it looks just like the old multi-touch demo, but with a Mac OS X dock, less multi-touch gestures and more sluggish. There wasn't even a pinch gesture in the map application.

Keep up the good work, though

[hhaeschen]

Another desktop mutitouch demo that fails totally to demonstrate anything actually useful.


Apple products always have been very useful especially for creative people, be it professional or consumer. And Apple will be able to implement this new technology in a stunning way, I am sure! Working with multimedia will get a whole lot easier than it is today.

It's only a year ago that Apple made their first step introducing multi-touch gestures on the iPhone. I don't remember anyone saying "what a bunch of BS" at that time.

The average consumer has simply not enough imaginativeness to to think of useful applications right now. Just wait a few years.
And until then think of this quote:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

[Marble]

It wouldn't be built and designed for people that just type.

Part of the problem is that it wouldn't be built and designed for people that even sometimes need to type, which most people do, especially students.

I guess you could get a keyboard for those "rare" occasions, but the problem is that they're pretty much mutually exclusive. Either you've got your tablet sitting in front of you or you've got your keyboard. As has been pointed out, reaching out and interacting with a vertical screen isn't really acceptable.

[psychofreak]

Part of the problem is that it wouldn't be built and designed for people that even sometimes need to type, which most people do, especially students.

I guess you could get a keyboard for those "rare" occasions, but the problem is that they're pretty much mutually exclusive. Either you've got your tablet sitting in front of you or you've got your keyboard. As has been pointed out, reaching out and interacting with a vertical screen isn't really acceptable.

How about the iMac G4 design, when you can manoeuvre the screen into the position you want?

http://www.dttservice.com/imac/imacg4.gif

[JG271]

This looks awesome, but its going to be hard to implement it in an apple-like way. I can't really see them putting out a tablet for use with a mac, maybe they'll incorporate this in the keyboard somehow?

I'd love this for logic. It would be like a kaoss pad!

[Marble]

How about the iMac G4 design, when you can manoeuvre the screen into the position you want?

However you swing it (he he), you've still only got one position where your wrists and fingers can be both productive and comfortable: resting almost horizontally with palms down on your work surface. Mouse, keyboard, tablet, or pad of paper, it's all the same. The tablet has to replace that spot where the mouse and keyboard would be—I don't see how they can coexist efficiently.

[stevearm]

Have you seen the 'Surface' computer by MS? A $10,000 1.5 ton box filled with infrared sensors, cameras, projectors, lenses, supported by mechanical arms driven by electronic engines. It now seems outdated before having the chance to reach the market. Once again, one giant leap forward for technology, one small step backward for MS.

Sorry I fail to see what's so impressive here. We've all seen it before on Microsoft Surface, and this doesn't look anywhere near as impressive or feature-packed as that.

[Marble]

I suppose the interesting thing is that this is being prototyped on a consumer machine.

[crees!]

I really wish Flash rolled over and died. It's an abomination. Here's hoping that Apple dusts down WebObjects and turns it into .Net-Cocoa or something. Anything to save us from a future of flash UIs....
The public beta of Flash Player 10 was just released yesterday. One thing it offers is "[e]asily transform and animate any display object through 3D space while retaining full interactivity." Now that is bad-ass.

labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/

[crees!]

I'm with you on that, Apple are the leaders of innovation..but this time Microsoft was first.. First with what? How many Surface systems do you see out in the real world? Microsoft was not first. Neither was Apple. Apple (and some others) have been able to market their tech to the masses. In the end, that's what counts.

[Marble]

If only this dude was one of the Unity programmers. :p

[JeffDM]

You have got to be joking, right? There is no way on earth that tying onto a multi touch screen would be as fast or natural as typing on a conventional keyboard.

How many people really type? I think us touch typists are in quite a minority.

Try typing with your hands at near vertical and see how easy it is.

Lame reason. Who told you the screen had to be vertical? If you saw Jeff Han's presentation, the surface he used was a very low slant.

Yes, if you're the kind of person who wants to type one-fingered monosyllabic replies on a chat site, maybe it would be fun, but otherwise it's a no starter. (Think about how you'd insert the cursor into a word on screen if you wanted to correct the spelling - your finger would obscure the point at which you wanted to do the insert. That is just one of a thousand common actions that would have be solved first before a real switch from mouse to multi-touch screen functionality could be effected.)

I think the iPhone UI shows how the finger position ambiguity issue can be solved pretty well. Please understand that the hurdles you describe are not insurmountable, I don't even think solving those problems are nearly as difficult as you seem to be saying.

I'm a bit tired of people noting problems as if no one has thought about them before.

[batchtaster]

However you swing it (he he), you've still only got one position where your wrists and fingers can be both productive and comfortable: resting almost horizontally with palms down on your work surface. Mouse, keyboard, tablet, or pad of paper, it's all the same. The tablet has to replace that spot where the mouse and keyboard would be—I don't see how they can coexist efficiently.

And you'd have to be looking down all the time. Multi-touch computers are an ergonomic nightmare, because your hands and vision have to be directed at the same point. Either your hands have to be raised up, which is tiring, or you have to be looking down at your hands which is problematic for your neck.

Many of the things we do on a daily basis don't require us to look at our hands, eg: driving, brushing teeth. Some do, eg: cutting food, but we don't sit in one spot, the one position, doing them for hours.

I'm not saying multi-touch isn't cool and useful, but it's only suitable for certain applications, like iPhone; it's certainly not suitable for general computing use or long-term device operation.

How many people really type? I think us touch typists are in quite a minority.

Based on....? They still teach typing. And even if you don't touch-type, that doesn't make things any better, because you'll be staring at the keyboard all day, since that's also where the screen is (ie: you won't get that look up, look down, look up, look down variance). While typing in general is not great for you, touch-typing is ergonomically better, because it doesn't involve unnatural body positions.

[Obi-Wan Kubrick]

It is only a matter of time before Apple introduces this for real. I think people are against the idea of multi-touch because they think it will replace the mouse and keyboard. It wont.

[notsofatjames]

i think the most important thing here is that this is implementable on a setup that costs next to nothing, and doesn't cost the thousands that Microsoft say 'Surface' is worth.

As for suitable consumer applications, who says this has to be a touch SCREEN interface. For example, you could have this set up so your coffee table is the touchable input, and then your TV on the wall the video output. It would be a fantastic way for Apple to present all forms of media, and in theory could be an extension to the Apple TV brand.
In the video on Gizmodo's site, the home made touch panel isn't a visual display, and you interact with what's shown on the screen.

This would also stop a lot of the ergonomic issues raised here, though not quite all of them.

[hhaeschen]

It is only a matter of time before Apple introduces this for real. I think people are against the idea of multi-touch because they think it will replace the mouse and keyboard. It wont.

It won't replace them all of a sudden but it will, eventually. By then people will see the advantages of such systems and question themselves how they could live for so many years without.
Again, the creativity of the average human being is very limited, which is why many dislike leap-frog changes at first but get used to them slowly and embrace them in the end.

[Rafox2]

You'll always need the keyboard. One needs the structure under their fingers in order type blindly. Hands are resting on the table while typing and my head can be in a natural position. Looking down all the time will not be confortable. Multi-touch is really cool but a mouse and keyboard is more precise and thus shall not be replaced. For now....

[k2spitfire88]

How about the iMac G4 design, when you can manoeuvre the screen into the position you want?

http://www.dttservice.com/imac/imacg4.gif

That could work. It could also be some slanted type of computer. Or, we could go with interactive walls and tv's, etc. I think, in the future, there will be no typing required, just voice recognition, and video conferencing, etc. We are starting to move towards a paperless society, and this is one of the many steps that are required to make it there.

[genshi]

And you'd have to be looking down all the time. Multi-touch computers are an ergonomic nightmare, because your hands and vision have to be directed at the same point.


As for suitable consumer applications, who says this has to be a touch SCREEN interface. For example, you could have this set up so your coffee table is the touchable input, and then your TV on the wall the video output.

These are both very good points. For certain applications at the moment, multi-touch is actually a very creative and useful way of computing in ways unachievable with the general computing of today (imagine a musician being able to control multiple sound generating objects on a screen with all 10 fingers as opposed to a single mouse.)

I do think multi-touch in everyday computing is not only inevitable, but is the natural evolution of computing. At the moment it has been geared more towards proprietary applications (music, photography, scientific research) which, for people like me, have been a boon and makes for a very exciting and promising (not to mention mind opening) time in computing. Being both a musician and a photographer myself, experiencing things like the reacTable (http://reactable.iua.upf.edu/?media) have not only given us a glimpse of what is possible, but has spurred an onslaught of others to experiment and push the boundaries of the technology.

reacTable image:
http://reactable.iua.upf.edu/pics/xavi06.jpg

I have been following projects such as Jeff Han's original research (http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/), the reacTable (http://reactable.iua.upf.edu/?media) and many others (like the Audiopad (http://www.jamespatten.com/audiopad/)) for quite awhile, long before the Microsoft Surface, so the news of something like this coming to a Mac (via either third part means or by Apple themselves) should not be surprising, and should be embraced as it will be the eventual main mode of interfacing for all of general computing... sooner than you may think.

In the mean time, some of us are able to enjoy these types of technology now for our own particular needs.

Audiopad images:
http://www.jamespatten.com/audiopad/audiopad-id011.jpg

http://www.jamespatten.com/audiopad/audiopad-id005.jpg

You'll always need the keyboard. One needs the structure under their fingers in order type blindly. Hands are resting on the table while typing and my head can be in a natural position. Looking down all the time will not be confortable. Multi-touch is really cool but a mouse and keyboard is more precise and thus shall not be replaced. For now....
If you haven't seen it already, I do recommend for everyone to watch Jeff Han's original demo (http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/) (before the big multi-touch wall (http://www.perceptivepixel.com/)) of his research to see all of the applications and the possibilities multi-touch has with each of these applications, including typing.

[EagerDragon]

How about the iMac G4 design, when you can manoeuvre the screen into the position you want?

http://www.dttservice.com/imac/imacg4.gif

I love that system, you could position it in any way you wanted, I liked it low to the ground (desk), tilted upward, close to me and I looked down. The chin in the new model and the lack of movement, has kept me from getting an iMac.

To me that was the best ever.

[stevearm]

http://www.ministryoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/microsoft-surface.jpg

was first

[psychofreak]

[Picture of Surface]

was first
No it wasn't, check out Jeff Han.

[decksnap]

http://www.ministryoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/microsoft-surface.jpg

was first

:rolleyes: No.

Also, isn't that thing run with huge projectors behind the table?

[psychofreak]

However you swing it (he he), you've still only got one position where your wrists and fingers can be both productive and comfortable: resting almost horizontally with palms down on your work surface. Mouse, keyboard, tablet, or pad of paper, it's all the same. The tablet has to replace that spot where the mouse and keyboard would be—I don't see how they can coexist efficiently.

I think that the perfect position would be at an angle, like Jeff Han had at his TED presentation: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/65

[genshi]

http://www.ministryoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/microsoft-surface.jpg

was first

No it wasn't, check out Jeff Han.

I think that the perfect position would be at an angle, like Jeff Han had at his TED presentation: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/65

Wow, did you guys just completely miss my little post directly above your posts referencing Jeff Han and how that was before the Surface and that there are many other projects before that as well (I even included pictures and links)!?

Here it all is again for those with ADD:

And you'd have to be looking down all the time. Multi-touch computers are an ergonomic nightmare, because your hands and vision have to be directed at the same point.


As for suitable consumer applications, who says this has to be a touch SCREEN interface. For example, you could have this set up so your coffee table is the touchable input, and then your TV on the wall the video output.

These are both very good points. For certain applications at the moment, multi-touch is actually a very creative and useful way of computing in ways unachievable with the general computing of today (imagine a musician being able to control multiple sound generating objects on a screen with all 10 fingers as opposed to a single mouse.)

I do think multi-touch in everyday computing is not only inevitable, but is the natural evolution of computing. At the moment it has been geared more towards proprietary applications (music, photography, scientific research) which, for people like me, have been boon and makes it a very exciting and promising (not to mention mind opening) time in computing. Being both a musician and a photographer myself, experiencing things like the reacTable (http://reactable.iua.upf.edu/?media) have not only given us a glimpse of what is possible, but has spurred an onslaught of others to experiment and push the boundaries of the technology.

reacTable image:
http://reactable.iua.upf.edu/pics/xavi06.jpg

I have been following projects such as Jeff Han's original research (http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/), the reacTable (http://reactable.iua.upf.edu/?media) and many others (like the Audiopad (http://www.jamespatten.com/audiopad/)) for quite awhile, long before the Microsoft Surface, so the news of something like this coming to a Mac (via either third part means or by Apple themselves) should not be surprising, and should be embraced as it will be the eventual main mode of interfacing for all of general computing... sooner than you may think.

In the mean time, some of us are able to enjoy these types of technology now for our own particular needs.

Audiopad images:
http://www.jamespatten.com/audiopad/audiopad-id011.jpg

http://www.jamespatten.com/audiopad/audiopad-id005.jpg

You'll always need the keyboard. One needs the structure under their fingers in order type blindly. Hands are resting on the table while typing and my head can be in a natural position. Looking down all the time will not be confortable. Multi-touch is really cool but a mouse and keyboard is more precise and thus shall not be replaced. For now....
If you haven't seen it already, I do recommend for everyone to watch Jeff Han's original demo (http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/) (before the big multi-touch wall (http://www.perceptivepixel.com/)) of his research to see all of the applications and the possibilities multi-touch has with each of these applications, including typing.

[uaaerospace]

I'm a bit tired of people noting problems as if no one has thought about them before.

The problems should continue to be mentioned until solutions are presented. Just because something is "cool" doesn't make it a good idea. Realizing the shortcomings and finding solutions make a good idea.

So far, I don't think ANYONE will agree that typing on a flat surface is half as efficient as typing on a regular keyboard. There is no feedback, so you don't really know if a press registered or not. Plus, how do you know you even hit the key? It's been said before, but I'll say it again. Typing on something similar to the iPhone (but full sized) is ok for one-fingered typists, however it will not work well for people who can actually type.

[N10248]

http://www.ministryoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/microsoft-surface.jpg

was first

they may have been first but under that table is still...

[Trip.Tucker]

Another desktop mutitouch demo that fails totally to demonstrate anything actually useful.

Also, I shudder at the thought of Flash becoming an application development framework (already happening, with Adobe's online Photoshop and word processor) - you can kiss goodbye all those years of interoperability and unified look and feel, keyboard shortcuts, cut 'n' paste, drag 'n' drop, unified spell checking, and everything else that we take for granted on Mac OS X.

I tried to test out the Flash based word processor yesterday - I got as far as the registration screen, and gave up when I realised that the scroll box that contains the Ts&Cs didn't respond to my scroll wheel, and had a non-standard scroller too. Not a good start.

I really wish Flash rolled over and died. It's an abomination. Here's hoping that Apple dusts down WebObjects and turns it into .Net-Cocoa or something. Anything to save us from a future of flash UIs....

I have to agree, Flash needs to be a flash in the pan. Horrible piece of work.

[Trip.Tucker]

The public beta of Flash Player 10 was just released yesterday. One thing it offers is "[e]asily transform and animate any display object through 3D space while retaining full interactivity." Now that is bad-ass.

labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/

...no. Just more ass.

[fewgraphik]

Me I simply think about that praticaly : the future is there, just hope the reactivity will be there on the final apple software patent N° 212012145662 call surely iTouch 1.0 ? on new cinema multitouch displays ;-) ??? IMO this is why no change on the line for a while.

Can't wait to work on photoshop, motion, particleillusion and protools with that !

@ Trip.Tucker
sounds like interfaces will change radicaly soon, but the keyboard is here to stay, almost for a while. my 5 years old kid will probably never use one in a couple of years.

things like this make me happy, quand-même, but make me older.

[fewgraphik]

Also, I shudder at the thought of Flash becoming an application development framework.

I really wish Flash rolled over and died. It's an abomination. Here's hoping that Apple dusts down WebObjects and turns it into .Net-Cocoa or something. Anything to save us from a future of flash UIs....

I use flash. It's a popular vector based graphic software run by actionscript and really powerful. It means that is here to stay. the AIR concept by Adobe is somewhere to clarify all the standards for the future to evitate full flash sites.

[inkswamp]

http://www.ministryoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/microsoft-surface.jpg

was first

I don't consider anyone "first" unless the product is commercially available. So, no Microsoft Surface wasn't first with multitouch. That's typical MS. They like to hype things they haven't even completed yet.

People bitch about Apple's secrecy, but one nice side-effect is that when Steve Jobs is talking about a product on-stage, you know it's actually close to shipping.

[Project]

People need to expand their horizons a little.

This kind of stuff is clearly the future of embedded computing.

[gmoney550]

Wow it's saturday and there hasn't been a single rumor! :mad:

[Intarweb]

Apple products always have been very useful especially for creative people, be it professional or consumer.

The MacbookAir says hello! That's the most useless POS Apple has released since Newton. Nobody in their right mind would buy that unless they are fanbots or mentally deranged. Yes, spend more money for LESS computer than a Macbook. Airamfail.

[bretm]

Wow it's saturday and there hasn't been a single rumor! :mad:

I think you'll notice MR rarely posts on weekends. Give Arn a couple days off.

[k2spitfire88]

I think you'll notice MR rarely posts on weekends. Give Arn a couple days off.

Either that, or we get odd things that entertain us that come up as rumors. :D Or even better-we are out doing things through out the weekend, so we dont check MR. I guess I don't fall into that category though :D

[sonicwind]

I think it's funny that Apple refuses to put 2 buttons on a mouse, but is pioneering multi-touch interfaces.

[MacRonin]

I think it's funny that Apple refuses to put 2 buttons on a mouse, but is pioneering multi-touch interfaces.

They have been shipping the Mighty Mouse with all iMacs & Mac Pros for awhile now, last I checked that thing had four buttons (right, left, sides & scroll) and a multi-directional scroll function…

[ckurowic]

OK, that's pretty damn impressive. We'll all soon be there.

Whatever man. You can be the first and only one to purchase this crap. I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but this seems pretty stupid to me.

[kjs862]

I personally do not want to see the touch interface expanding to the mainstream and replacing the mouse. I love my iphone, however I have sweaty hands so my screen gets all gross and doesn't work as well if my hands were dry.

[candykane]

Wel guys think your drifting off the point here!
These guys showed you one hell of a piece of work!
**applause**
You might like it or you might not. But how expensive is a cardboard box web cam and a piece of paper with some sticky tape? :confused: and we can all go play with it at home. im sure going to try it might even be fun so Come on don't be so negative have you tryed it.

now for some personal experience
I work with touch screens every day and well i can tell you it suck's
We use them to control the printing presses. And my god how many times i wished for a mouse. Problem is that well your fingers are not that accurate when your pointing at some thing. Second ergonomics its a nightmare.
So I dont think there will be a touch screen but will be an interface tablet.
because some stuff thats works on the mac books is real cool and easy to use and makes you work faster.

Back to the point i think we will see more of this stuff external usb touch sensitive stuff and with that there will be great apps.
I do have confidence that this tech is a break though for embedded systems.giving you more control no more buttons, on screen keyboards ect
a single monitor/pc that does it all.

[fewgraphik]

Whatever man. You can be the first and only one to purchase this crap. I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but this seems pretty stupid to me.

Waow, that is clever ckurowic. It's a concept. Know the word ?

[dicklacara]

You'll always need the keyboard. One needs the structure under their fingers in order type blindly. Hands are resting on the table while typing and my head can be in a natural position. Looking down all the time will not be confortable. Multi-touch is really cool but a mouse and keyboard is more precise and thus shall not be replaced. For now....

I am not so sure. Doug Englebart introduced a 5-key chordset at the same demo where he introduced the mouse,

http://kobnet.net/misc/www.cedmagic.com/history/first-computer-mouse.html

The mouse caught on but the chordset did not.

Today, with multitouch, haptics, etc, we have the technology to make it possible to (feel/touch) chord-type with one hand while simultaneously pointing, selecting, multitouch manipulating with the other. This would be done on a horizontal, flat, surface-- while looking looking elsewhere (presumably at a virtical display).

Who's to say that, in a few years, touch typing won't be taught on a chordset multitouch flat surface (it doesn't necessarily need to be vertical or a screen).

"Engelbart proved that trained typists, after just a few hours of training, could perform more efficiently using a chord keyboard than a conventional QWERTY keyboard."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard

The advantages of a multitouch surface are many:

1) no moving parts
2) sealed, hardened, environment resistant to moisture (ever spilled a Dr. Pepper on your QWERTY?).
3) customizable to user and application.
4) potential lower-cost mass production than QWERTY kbs.
5) new applications

For the latter, think of an instrument (guitar, piano) fretboard and/or keyboard where the artist can perform attack (hammering on, pulling off, plucking), tremolo & vibrato, and other effects-- simply by (multitouch) massaging/pinching virtual strings or keys. At the same time, another surface could be totally customized to mix and equalize the music from the instruments.

[MacsAttack]

The advantages of a multitouch surface are many:


And there are even more disadvantages...

An experiment. Take a book (say Hillegass' Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X). Sit holding the book out in front of you with both hands with arms fully extended. Do this for 30 minutes. You now know what using a touch display all day is going to be like.

Multitouch technology does have its applications (the iPhone/Touch are a practical example of the technology - it works because it is the most effective way to control a small portable device without cluttering things up with mice, keyboards, or a stylus). For a desktop of notebook it if far less compelling because you have the keyboard/mouse/touchpad that is the result of many years of evolution. Keyboard input is much faster than a mouse or touch screen ever will be for most practical applications.

[dicklacara]

And there are even more disadvantages...

An experiment. Take a book (say Hillegass' Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X). Sit holding the book out in front of you with both hands with arms fully extended. Do this for 30 minutes. You now know what using a touch display all day is going to be like.


Ahh...but, you are confusing multitouch surface and multitouch display.

If you read my post, you would know that I made the distinction:


Today, with multitouch, haptics, etc, we have the technology to make it possible to (feel/touch) chord-type with one hand while simultaneously pointing, selecting, multitouch manipulating with the other. This would be done on a horizontal, flat, surface-- while looking looking elsewhere (presumably at a virtical display).


Don't you love quoting yourself? :D

For some apps it makes sense to have separate surfaces for data entry/selection and display. I think a kb/mouse & separate display will evolve to a multitouch surface & separate display.

For other apps (light table, equalizer, navigation, etc.), a combo multitouch surface for entry/display makes sense.

With economies of mass production, I suspect that it will make sense to make a combo device that can be used for both types of apps-- a flat horizontal surface used for key/mouse entry to be shown on a separate display. As a user option, this flat entry surface can function as a display, too.

Succinctly, a multitouch surface can be:

1) a replacement for traditional kb & mouse
2) an alternative entry and display device
3) both

[Manic Mouse]

I touch type fairly successfully on my iPhone (I look at what I'm typing and not the keyboard), I don't see how it would be any different with a full sized keyboard. Apple already has the software to correct minor mistakes in the iPhone (I still don't know why it isn't in Leopard).

A MacBook with a second, multitouch screen instead of keyboard and trackpad would be a dream. The things you could do with it are fathomless.

All you nay-sayers are really rather depressing. You can't even think beyond the box of touching your current screen instead of having a second one to act as your mouse and keyboard (but be capable of much more). Heck, you could still have your mouse (and external keyboard if you must).

The iPhone has demonstrated that mutlitouch interfaces can work wonderfully, and are a million times more flexible than a M&K. They are the future.

[infowarfare]

And there are even more disadvantages...

An experiment. Take a book (say Hillegass' Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X). Sit holding the book out in front of you with both hands with arms fully extended. Do this for 30 minutes. You now know what using a touch display all day is going to be like.


What!? Are you kidding? You can't be that daft, seriously.

I swear, some of you people really have absolutely no vision, foresight or even the slightest shred of imagination (not to mention even common sense) to be able to see the usefulness and possibilities of a technology such as this can bring. Instead, you want to immediately dismiss it because it threatens your precious little comfort zone when in reality you fear it may actually reveal your own inadequacies. (but given the chance, may actually help you, but unfortunately some of you are too dim to realize that.)

And to a previous poster who claimed "touch screens suck" because he works on one at a printing press or whatever, that's really comparing Apples to Oranges. That's like someone offering you a chance to drive a Ferrari over your horse and you saying "No thanks, I tried using those car things. My work makes me drive a Yugo and it's so slow and weak, I just couldn't recommend anyone ever using any car." WTF!?! That's what you people all sound like! The same people that dismissed the iPhone before it came out because they said "Touch screen PDAs have been around for years and they suck" well it's NOT even close to the same thing as we now know.

<SLAP> WAKE UP PEOPLE! And get out of your tiny, safe bubbles you've created around yourselves! There's more to the world out there than what you think you know...

[infowarfare]

And there are even more disadvantages...

An experiment. Take a book (say Hillegass' Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X). Sit holding the book out in front of you with both hands with arms fully extended. Do this for 30 minutes. You now know what using a touch display all day is going to be like.


ARRGH! Re-reading this, your statement pissed me off so much in it's ignorance I just had to post a second reply to it. Heres my rebuttal (equivalent to your ignorance):

An experiment. Take your 10 fingers and dip them in a pot of boiling water. Do this for 30 minutes. You now know what using a keyboard all day is going to be like.

:rolleyes:

[inkswamp]

An experiment. Take your 10 fingers and dip them in a pot of boiling water. Do this for 30 minutes. You now know what using a keyboard all day is going to be like.

:rolleyes:

He's right though. Touch screens can be extremely dangerous. Why, I once knew a touch screen that was so mean, it shot a man just to watch him die.

[dicklacara]

I touch type fairly successfully on my iPhone (I look at what I'm typing and not the keyboard), I don't see how it would be any different with a full sized keyboard. Apple already has the software to correct minor mistakes in the iPhone (I still don't know why it isn't in Leopard).

A MacBook with a second, multitouch screen instead of keyboard and trackpad would be a dream. The things you could do with it are fathomless.

All you nay-sayers are really rather depressing. You can't even think beyond the box of touching your current screen instead of having a second one to act as your mouse and keyboard (but be capable of much more). Heck, you could still have your mouse (and external keyboard if you must).

The iPhone has demonstrated that mutlitouch interfaces can work wonderfully, and are a million times more flexible than a M&K. They are the future.

Well said!

I have portables, iPhones, iPods, and Macs (Minis and iMacs) and the latest 2 generations of mice and kbs.

When I go from the iPhone to anything else, I feel as if something's missing. I want to reach up to the display and flick or pinch that list, space, window, movie, image, whatever-- to just do what I want to do. I am constrained by the lack of multitouch... M&K just get in the way for these operations.

I want both!

If the horizontal multitouch surface (replacing the M&K) is another display... all the better-- I can customize it to my preferences (and maybe even to chordset touch typing).

If the vertical display surface is multitouch, then I can control it directly when it makes sense.

The mind boggles when you begin to think of some of the applications.

1) 2 multitouch/entry/display surfaces in portables & desktops
2) 1 multitouch/entry/display surface as a tablet, iPhone, iPod, Universal Remote, gaming device, etc.
3) multiple multitouch/entry/display surfaces as a n-dimensional video wall
4) multiple multitouch/entry/display surfaces as a customizable n-dimensional control panel

...and that's just for starters

[infowarfare]

He's right though. Touch screens can be extremely dangerous. Why, I once knew a touch screen that was so mean, it shot a man just to watch him die.

lol, thanks for that.

Now this mean touch screen you know, was it wearing black? Did this take place in Reno?

;)

[dicklacara]

Mmmm....maybe unrelated, but, all the recent talk about tablets, multitouch display/entry surfaces, WWDC...

...how long has it been since Apple refreshed its standalone displays?

[swagi]

Me I simply think about that praticaly : the future is there, just hope the reactivity will be there on the final apple software patent N° 212012145662 call surely iTouch 1.0 ? on new cinema multitouch displays ;-) ??? IMO this is why no change on the line for a while.

Can't wait to work on photoshop, motion, particleillusion and protools with that !

@ Trip.Tucker
sounds like interfaces will change radicaly soon, but the keyboard is here to stay, almost for a while. my 5 years old kid will probably never use one in a couple of years.

things like this make me happy, quand-même, but make me older.

Well, I have to agree with you and on the other han have to disagree with you. Yes, interfaces will change drastically in the near future. Will Multitouch be a special part of that? You bet.

OTOH there is the next major step to take. Full 3D-displays will be the future. There are current sytems with 1024*768 resolution in development. 10 years back in the past this was the normal 2D resolution, so no need for crying out.

So question is: Who will bring both worlds together first?

[t0mat0]

Well, I have to agree with you and on the other han have to disagree with you. Yes, interfaces will change drastically in the near future. Will Multitouch be a special part of that? You bet.

OTOH there is the next major step to take. Full 3D-displays will be the future. There are current sytems with 1024*768 resolution in development. 10 years back in the past this was the normal 2D resolution, so no need for crying out.

So question is: Who will bring both worlds together first?

Pseudo 3D comes first. Don the IR goggles folks. Johhny's hacks are coming mainstream :)

Prediction - The multi-touch OS mashed up with mainstream OS X.
If you look at the Modbook reviews - it sorely misses out by not having Multi-touch. In some shape or form - from a swivelling screen on a laptop converting a laptop to a tablet (with hardened screen to do multi-touch on/ use a yucky stylus on), through to using iPhones as slaved UI devices, much as we use wireless mice today.

Whilst Microsoft's Surface has gone vertical, Apple's multi-touch could "go ballistic" if they pushed it. They took a gamble with the iPhone. Hope they take more...

[ThunderSkunk]

Imagine replacing the ball on your mighty mouse with a little touchpad. Handy! No more lurching around crazily, no more intermittent & sporadic behavior. Just smooth, 2.5 axis control. Make the touchpad multitouch, and increase its size, and suddenly who needs click buttons? Just tap your fingertips. Taking it a step further, why have to slide the thing around on your desktop at all?

I think the evolution will jump quickly to a simple keyboard with a little multi-touchpad, say a 5x7 or so (though not necessarily a touchscreen) off to one side, like the ten-key pad is. Probably make the whole thing modular, so it could be plugged into either side for lefties & righties, or adjusted for angle, due to the whole console getting a bit wide. You'd still be looking unobstructed at your nice big clear and color-accurate monitor, and your ergonomics wouldn't be any different than they currently are.

This could be used with a desktop system to great advantage. Not only as a mouse replacement for a lot of people, but for the oh, three or four of us out there that do more with our computers than email and surf the web, having the greater Cad, Photoshop, Illustrator, FCS, Logic functionality handy at your fingertips would be invaluable.

Dragging a finger around would constitute cursor movement (probably something like a little ripple ring for each finger) and mouse-over's, and a click would require you to actually tap or double-tap on the screen.
A good feature would probably be to provide an option for scaling the work area around wherever the cursor is at, or absolute coordinates, for increased accuracy when needed. And probably adjustable vector smoothing for cursor motions.

I design bicycles. ...& sometimes electronic gizmo's, that I have no way of ever building.

[mjcoder]

This is the URL of the touchlib project where you can download the sources for the library and the demos:

http://nuigroup.com/touchlib

[dicklacara]

Imagine replacing the ball on your mighty mouse with a little touchpad. Handy! No more lurching around crazily, no more intermittent & sporadic behavior. Just smooth, 2.5 axis control. Make the touchpad multitouch, and increase its size, and suddenly who needs click buttons? Just tap your fingertips. Taking it a step further, why have to slide the thing around on your desktop at all?

I think the evolution will jump quickly to a simple keyboard with a little multi-touchpad, say a 5x7 or so (though not necessarily a touchscreen) off to one side, like the ten-key pad is. Probably make the whole thing modular, so it could be plugged into either side for lefties & righties, or adjusted for angle, due to the whole console getting a bit wide. You'd still be looking unobstructed at your nice big clear and color-accurate monitor, and your ergonomics wouldn't be any different than they currently are.

This could be used with a desktop system to great advantage. Not only as a mouse replacement for a lot of people, but for the oh, three or four of us out there that do more with our computers than email and surf the web, having the greater Cad, Photoshop, Illustrator, FCS, Logic functionality handy at your fingertips would be invaluable.

Dragging a finger around would constitute cursor movement (probably something like a little ripple ring for each finger) and mouse-over's, and a click would require you to actually tap or double-tap on the screen.
A good feature would probably be to provide an option for scaling the work area around wherever the cursor is at, or absolute coordinates, for increased accuracy when needed. And probably adjustable vector smoothing for cursor motions.

I design bicycles. ...& sometimes electronic gizmo's, that I have no way of ever building.

Logically, I agree with the above.

But, for two things:

1) Apple needs to press its MT advantage while it has a lead.

2) We're dealin' with SJ here... Steve doesn't evolve things, he revolutionizes them.

[t0mat0]

Imagine replacing the ball on your mighty mouse with a little touchpad. Handy! Make the touchpad multitouch, and increase its size, and suddenly who needs click buttons? Just tap your fingertips. Taking it a step further, why have to slide the thing around on your desktop at all?

I think the evolution will jump quickly to a simple keyboard with a little multi-touchpad, say a 5x7 or so (though not necessarily a touchscreen) off to one side, like the ten-key pad is. Probably make the whole thing modular, so it could be plugged into either side for lefties & righties, or adjusted for angle, due to the whole console getting a bit wide. You'd still be looking unobstructed at your nice big clear and color-accurate monitor, and your ergonomics wouldn't be any different than they currently are.

You mean this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4674847&postcount=336)? ;)
(shout to kontheur for the mockup)

Sounds like we have +2 people to the multi touch pad concept. Bear in mind the iPhone could be slaved to do this possibly (you'd need a v slim dock to stabilise it though)

Maybe as a wireless multi-touch mousepad? I think the demo shows it doesn't have to be high tech to work. webcam + cardboard box upwards...

[bmk]

How many people really type? I think us touch typists are in quite a minority.



Lame reason. Who told you the screen had to be vertical? If you saw Jeff Han's presentation, the surface he used was a very low slant.



I think the iPhone UI shows how the finger position ambiguity issue can be solved pretty well. Please understand that the hurdles you describe are not insurmountable, I don't even think solving those problems are nearly as difficult as you seem to be saying.

I'm a bit tired of people noting problems as if no one has thought about them before.

Sorry to be so late in replying to your objections, but taking them one by one:

I really don't think it's a matter of those who touch type versus those who text/chat. The whole multi-touch/touch screen versus keyboard mouse issue is an interface issue, one which if it is to be successful will have to deal seriously with people who want to do both. Apple is not going to produce some cut down touch screen interface/operating system for people who chat and another for those who can type. Multi-touch offers a challenge to the HIG - I am not saying that multi-touch may not in some future incarnation be able to replace keyboard and mouse combo but just that a complete implementation of multi-touch system wide is still a way off.

As for the screen being vertical - if you work in type, graphics or video - ie most commercial applications for a computer - then a vertical or near vertical screen is just more or less obligatory, for practical as well as health/ergonomic reasons. There may be horizontal table-based applications/uses, but they are not the kinds of uses that most people use most computers for most of the time. Which is one of the reasons why Surface, despite is whizzy graphics, is still in an R and D lab and not in people's houses or offices.

You are right about the iPhone - I am not saying that there aren't really great things abut multi-touch and its implementation in the iPhone, but the key point here is that the iPhone is a completely different interface to the standard Mac interface, and it will be a fairly big paradigm shift for people to go from the standard Mac keyboard/mouse interface to a wholly touch-screen interface.

As to your last comment - I certainly don't think that no one has thought of the points I was making before - but my response was to a number of people in these threads who seem to think that a fully multi touch OS X is (a) just around the corner and (b) will just require a slight revision of Leopard. It isn't, and it won't. When Apple do incorporate full multi-touch I am sure it will be awesome, but it won't be much like the interface we are using now.

[bmk]

oo

[JeffDM]

Based on....? They still teach typing.

Just because typing is still taught doesn't mean a lot of people type a lot.

As for the screen being vertical - if you work in type, graphics or video - ie most commercial applications for a computer - then a vertical or near vertical screen is just more or less obligatory, for practical as well as health/ergonomic reasons. There may be horizontal table-based applications/uses, but they are not the kinds of uses that most people use most computers for most of the time. Which is one of the reasons why Surface, despite is whizzy graphics, is still in an R and D lab and not in people's houses or offices.

It's not about horizontal or vertical. There's a range of 90 degrees that you completely missed. Think drafting table. I don't think horizontal or vertical are the best options. Avid even showed off a slanted editing station last year.

The contemporary thinking on ergonomics is that top edge of the screen be at eye level, so you're actually looking down at least a bit anyway.

I don't think it's a matter of providing two completely different interfaces, but Apple did do away with the keypad on the iphone. I've not seen a big test that showed iphone "typists" can keep up with users of treo and BB devices with tactile keyboards.

[hijofrizbe]

I said this a while back, when iMac's started to hit more and more businesses' desks and check out isles. I wonder what kind of economic boost would hit apple if they made a product that was geared mainly toward the business sector by having touch screens. (We've all seen what iMac's can do as cash registers via our local Apple Store - now imagine it with out a mouse or keyboard?) NCR is a major competitor in this sector (along with a few other crappy based companies, ie. Dell); they also are apart of AT&T, which would also make for a VERY interesting watch.
I can't realistically see this coming to a desk near me, but the local resturant or apple store - sure. The possibility of a tablet... if that's the true implications of the touch technology, is a bit far fetched for me still, especially with the new(er) releases of MacBook(s) and the MacBook Air.

[sighlent]

MS wasn't first
Jeff Han wasn't even first

Check out this page by Bill Buxton, scroll down for implementations dating back to the early 80s
http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html

[gcmexico]

Whatever man. You can be the first and only one to purchase this crap. I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but this seems pretty stupid to me.
***
that movie had some sick tech...if Apple can create a touch tablet anything close to what it was like in the movie..I'm sold!! Also, the movie had all major characters using video calls on their cell phones (it was a verizon type fon, with a video camera in the front)...I so hope the new Iphone will have that option!!! For those that are about to jump on me, saying hey that was a movie, it's all fake!!! hold your horses most of the stuff that has been appearing on movies is now coming out:D

[stephenli]

Have you seen the 'Surface' computer by MS? A $10,000 1.5 ton box filled with infrared sensors, cameras, projectors, lenses, supported by mechanical arms driven by electronic engines. It now seems outdated before having the chance to reach the market. Once again, one giant leap forward for technology, one small step backward for MS.

Does it powered by...Windows? Will it have Blue screen of death? :p
Actually I like the idea of coffee table + computer, but I still cannot think of a good way to use it at home, and it is at concept stage and to be too expensive.
A small, Apple Multi-touch tablet would be very nice.

[ThunderSkunk]

You mean...

I dunno, I'm thinking just something like this. It's easy, practical, your fingers can still feel where they are on the keyboard, you've got the convenience of a real numberpad, and the total human touch of the touchpad. I'd go with a MBP-like touchpad over a glass one, since it stays smooth, whereas the glass on the iPhone gums up the motion as it gets oily.

Much like how MT was more subtly implemented on the MBP's, I think this makes sense with the way people use desktops. They aren't going to want to be using a touchpad to do everything, but it's right there when needed, and it'd do a much better job of cursor control than a mouse.

No doubt jobs likes revolutionary, as do I, but I see desktops as somewhat limiting in their ergonomics. If you were going to have a touchscreen monitor on your Mac Pro, you'd want it positioned like a Wacom Monitor, like you hold and read a book sitting at a table. But this desktop arrangement is cumbersome and is one that people usually set up only when they need it, adn then take down again when they're done with that task.

Revolutionary is a fully functional touchscreen tablet built around MT.

I'll make a couple mockups.

[Otaviano]

I really can't believe that there are so many posters arguing against this technology. Where are the forward thinkers? This is Apple, the company that told us to think different.

Why would multi-touch replace a keyboard and mouse rather than augment it? With the technology we have, a wireless keyboard and mouse need only be arms reach away. Imagine a tablet mac roughly the size of a MacBook Pro. It comes with a stand and can be position like an easel, or it can be laid flat down on your desk. As I already said, the keyboard and mouse only as complicated as turning on bluetooth on the machine.

Then imagine all of the radical applications that can be made. The most blatant is clearly a touch version of Photoshop, but that's only the beginning. Creative applications would have a renaissance under this technology. A pro DJ application that pulls songs from iTunes and allows you to manipulate them on screen (pitch shift, scratch, mix). For years now DJs have been dragging their laptops out and using them in their routines, now the laptop would be the only piece of equipment they need. Even an application like Final Cut Pro could become an entire new experience as you can quickly scroll and scrub through footage with your hands.

[headfuzz]

I dunno, I'm thinking just something like this. It's easy, practical, your fingers can still feel where they are on the keyboard, you've got the convenience of a real numberpad, and the total human touch of the touchpad. I'd go with a MBP-like touchpad over a glass one, since it stays smooth, whereas the glass on the iPhone gums up the motion as it gets oily.

Much like how MT was more subtly implemented on the MBP's, I think this makes sense with the way people use desktops. They aren't going to want to be using a touchpad to do everything, but it's right there when needed, and it'd do a much better job of cursor control than a mouse.

No doubt jobs likes revolutionary, as do I, but I see desktops as somewhat limiting in their ergonomics. If you were going to have a touchscreen monitor on your Mac Pro, you'd want it positioned like a Wacom Monitor, like you hold and read a book sitting at a table. But this desktop arrangement is cumbersome and is one that people usually set up only when they need it, adn then take down again when they're done with that task.

Revolutionary is a fully functional touchscreen tablet built around MT.

I'll make a couple mockups.

Your mockup indicates that Apple don't like left handed people :p

[DMann]

Does it powered by...Windows? Will it have Blue screen of death? :p
Actually I like the idea of coffee table + computer, but I still cannot think of a good way to use it at home, and it is at concept stage and to be too expensive.
A small, Apple Multi-touch tablet would be very nice.

Yes, it is powered by Windows, and is indeed prone to the 'Blue-Screen-Of-Death. A Mac Tablet could easily outperform such a cumbersome and clunky monstrosity, which would be not be restricted to being anchored down by outdated machinery and hardware. Looking forward to WWDC 2008.

[ThunderSkunk]

Your mockup indicates that Apple don't like left handed people :p

Nope, look again. That's what I meant before about the unit being modular. That touchpad unit would plug in on either side. ...or just be wireless I suppose, but then, more batteries, more pairing...

[macfan70]

I think the touch OS for a desktop is a great idea but it needs a hardware fix.
I just recently went through an ergonomic evaluation at work and learned a few things. First the screen has to be level with you eyes and the keyboard has to be low and level with your arms at rest on the arm rests of the chair. This makes the use of a large flat screen on your desk but at an angle not a very good option. So maybe we need a large curved touch screen ( pardon my rough mockup :o )

This way the interactive part of the screen is close to you for comfort sake and the viewable area it oriented at a more reasonable viewing angle.

Just my thoughts.

[DMann]

This makes the use of a large flat screen on your desk but at an angle not a very good option. So maybe we need a large curved touch screen ( pardon my rough mockup :o )

This way the interactive part of the screen is close to you for comfort sake and the viewable area it oriented at a more reasonable viewing angle.

Just my thoughts.

Great mockup. You are correct, and on the cutting edge of OLED technology. This will indeed be possible using OLED - a 3mm paper thin monitor with no back light necessary, 1,000,000/1 contrast ratio, and amazingly vivid and bright.

It was demoed by Sony at CES - Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ufs9Wx0VXQ

[ThunderSkunk]

ok, here's muy little experment. I'm using a neaat little app called trackpad.app in conjunction woth my jailbroken iphone, which is laying flat on my desktop next to my keyboard, and presntly undr my fingers.

i'm actially typing yhos on iphons touchscreen keyboard. i can type pretty efficenty on it usually, buy lying flat youre kidn of behind yourhand, and can't see what you're hitting. not so good, but it's a small keyboard. ...Ok, back to my imacs keyboard. Kind of what some suspected, typing on a flat, slick, featureless surface does keep your eyes pretty well fixated on it. Probably on-screen touch typing makes sense for portable devices.

However, using the iphone/trackpad as a mouse substitute was really nice. Not paying for a full touchpad license which includes ScreenView functionality (turns your iphone into a fully-functional touchscreen remote desktop for your mac) I disabled the feature entirely in prefs, so it's just a trackpad with no display components sucking any resources. In this condition, this particular app is very fast and efficient (MUCH moreso than its competitor VNSea), and the cursor motion is very fluid and controlled. Compared to my mighty mouse, it's very smooth. I find the setup works better rotated sideways to match the widescreen. Funny though, I couldn't keep another finger from dangling onto the screen occasionally and mucking things up. You kind of wind up holding your hand in this elevated "Claw" pose, which makes for a little kink in the wrist after a couple hours. But, the main thing is, the accuracy required for graphics work just isn't there, to no fault of the equipments'. You just don't have as much control in one unsupported fingertip blobbing around under the weight of an also unsupported hand as you do with a whole hand gripping a pencil or stylus and stabilizing itself on a surface.

If Apple makes a tablet, and intends for creative people to be able to use it for things like graphics & possibly even cad, SJ is going to have to eat his words on the stylus issue.

And by graphics work, I mean more than rotating jpgs to some arbitrary angle for viewing in a disorganized pile on your desktop. If I see one more demo of that I'm gonna strangle someone.

[dicklacara]

If Apple makes a tablet, and intends for creative people to be able to use it for things like graphics & possibly even cad, SJ is going to have to eat his words on the stylus issue.


Maybe not... Apple has a patent application for a virtual stylus. You arrange your thumb & fingers as if you are holding a pen or pencil and place them on the MT surface. The UI software triangulates the position of the virtual stylus from the finger positions. If done well, this should give more accuracy than a mouse, using the "natural" act of writing.

AIR, there is also a patent application where MT software can detect brush or pen "pressure" by evaluating the difference (in surface use) between a "normal" touch and a "pressed" touch.