Windows Goes Multi-Touch

[dant19]

I think this is the direction all things will eventually go, but not by making the screen multi-touch. It makes it too messy, and looking down isnt that natural.

I'd like to see multi-touch on the keyboard. Get rid of the keys, and replace it with an actual screen. This display can change depending on what you are doing. For typing, touch keyboard. For photo manipulation, a grid?? Not thought about it any great depth :P

On a slightly different note, despite it being nice to see Apple with a bit of real competition on the multi-touch front.... Microsoft??

In my head, PC's are used for the following:

-Word processing, spreadsheets etc
-education
-business
-internet
-gaming

Now I truly believe if mac did this they would put in pointless but awesome gimmicks (cover flow on iphone anyone?), which would be fine, because thats just what Mac does (and make things so much simpler and cleaner with the help of quicksilver ;) ). But what exactly would Microsoft do with it? except make the OS even pricier or provide even more options to further confuse those that are not of a technical mind.

Not convinced really.

Dan

[amac4me]

I hope we get some details about the next version of the Mac operating system at WWDC. If so, I'd like to see a demo that includes multi-touch so we can see how Apple's and Microsoft's products compare with each other.

[Eraserhead]

Now I truly believe if mac did this they would put in pointless but awesome gimmicks (cover flow on iphone anyone?),

True, I've never used Coverflow on my iPod Touch, or on my Mac...

[GroundLoop]

I haven't read the entire thread so some of this may be repeated.

I do NOT want to see Mac OS X go multitouch. Current implementations (at this time) are inefficient and will unnecessarily burden the CPU/GPU. Multi-touch, IMO, is only reasonable for MIDs and PMPs.

This is why I am interested in a bigger iPhone/Always-connected MID/PMP. Give me a 7" multi-touch slate that can connect over 3G/802.11n and has the same iPhone OS and I will be in heaven. That slate form-factor would replace my laptop in my living room and could just have my Mac Pro for real computing.

Hickman

[Intarweb]

i think jobs is more than aware that as it stands currently, touch as a MAIN feature for a computer is useless

I'm sure once Apple announces it as a main feature you'll be raising it as the second coming of, Jesus.

All OS's are heading in this direction.

[James17]

Yesterday, SP1. Still slower than XP, S-L-O-W boot time - way too bloated, period, UAC is pathetic, (yes, I am aware it can be disabled) a large number of apps which run on XP do not run properly on Vista - many compatibility issues. 90% of those 90% which have Vista pre-installed have been already well acclimated to having computer issues, and will thus put up with it. It is simply not true that consumers choose a PC because it has any incarnation of Windows on it - they do so to get on-line, buy what their friends and family already have, and to run software used at work. Incidentally, I do not recall seeing any lines outside of stores on the day Vista was released as we witness with OS X releases.

Can I just say that I bought a £399/$787 Samsung laptop with Windows Vista Home Premium last week and after I installed a lot of applications e.g. CS3, Office 07 and lots of small apps the laptop was still fast and the boot-time was excellent. I think UAC is a good thing for security although I understand that it is a nagging tool. Most applications run fine on Vista over a year after it was released but I'm sure there are some that don't. I think Microsoft were wrong in the sense of the system requirements for Vista e.g. 128MB dedicated graphics, at least 1GB RAM when you actually need about 2GB for it to even start running smooth which is unacceptable, however, system requirements aside- I think it is an acceptable product, not exceptional- acceptable. I have never received any issues with Vista on the machines I have with it, no crashing, no viruses, no compatibility as the samsung laptop comes with a DVD full of Vista programs and drivers. Microsoft should have done better with Vista but it is not as bad as people are making out. I think Leopard is a great os and I use it daily, however, from looking around there are still people with problems e.g. airport problems but just because I don't suffer these problems it doesn't mean no-one else does as is evident from the Mac OS X section of these forums.

[Infrared]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch

"Multi-touch technology dates back to 1982, when the University of Toronto developed the first finger pressure multi-touch display.

The same year, Bell Labs and Murray Hill published what is believed to be the first paper discussing touch-screen based interfaces.

In 1984 Bell Labs engineered a touch screen that could manipulate images. The same year Microsoft began research in the area.

A significant breakthrough occurred in 1991, when Pierre Wellner published a paper on his multi-touch “Digital Desk”, which supported multi-finger and pinching motions."

25 years of multi-touch history, then the Iphone.


It's not who does it first, but who does it right first.

[137489]

I did not take the time to read all these posts.... Microsoft has always been working on the new operating system - they said that Vista is not the anticipated LongHorn we all hoped for (well, until I bought my mac - not hoping anymore). It was a far cry because of delays and the trade commission making them take stuff out.

Anyway, I worked for a lab company were we implemented touch monitors. the problems:

1. Software not written for touch screens (boxes to small to accurately click the one you want, especially if multiple boxes are presented in close proximity).

2. Some people though the stylus was a pen (ok, we shipped styluses that really looked like pens) and walked off with it.

3. Styluses were lost and people used a pen (gouged the heck out of the screen).

4. Eww in a lab - I hated to get one returned that was in a lab - you do not know if the screen was in a clean room or not, and trust me some did not come back clean.

there are only a few places I think touch screens are good, if the software is written with big enough boxes:

1. Mobile devices.
2. Resturant terminals.
3. Point of Sale Kiosks
4. tablet PC's where I hace to draw on the screen (circle, highlight, etc) during a presentation.
5. Artists & Architechs who draw alot.

Other than that I do not see much use for them. While my macbook has some touch built into the track pad (2 finger swipe, rest thumb on poad and click to simulate right click, and a few others) - I find it awkward to use. I am much more productive when I plug in a USB 2 button mouse.

I even have trouble working with my palm centrino when I temporarily misplace the stylus (and even with the stylus, smudges are a constant battle). I could not see using a touch screen for typing. I worked with a programmer who touched his screen alot, when I had to look at something on this monitor - I cleaned it first so that I could see what was on the screen.

I do see some uses if implemented correctly, but not on the main screen for laptops and desktops.

[Mykolas]

I agree with you shervieux! This seems useless for me too. Why would I want to manage my photos like that? I don't want to play. I need computer for work.

[goosnarrggh]

True, I've never used Coverflow on my iPod Touch, or on my Mac...

Indeed, I have 3 Leopard-equipped Macs, and I've *never* used Finder's Coverflow mode on any of them. I don't really use Coverflow in iTunes either.

I can honestly say that I perfer the traditional list view (vertical orientation) on my iPod Touch over the Coverflow orientation.

[EagerDragon]

To be fair, all those PC sales would be non-existent without Windows on it. People are buying the computers to run Windows, not to look at the pretty touchpad.

I am not sure about the statement that people buy the computer to run windows.

While you could be right, I would say that 75% of those people purchased the computer to run MS Office because that is the same software than at work, 10% friends told them to get a windows system 15% are gamers.

They are not looking forward to run windows, so windows it self was not the dream feature that sold them on the system. It was office, having a system like others that know, and the Games that so happens to run only on windows.

Most people could care less about the OS. The computer is a tool people want to use it as a tool, even if windows Linux or OSX. However people are a bit afraid of buying something expensive like office and then finding that it does not work well in the particular OS they have so they have a tendency to stick to an OS they know will run it. BY the way most people do not know or use 15% of their OS capabilities.

[swagi]

Indeed, I have 3 Leopard-equipped Macs, and I've *never* used Finder's Coverflow mode on any of them. I don't really use Coverflow in iTunes either.

I can honestly say that I perfer the traditional list view (vertical orientation) on my iPod Touch over the Coverflow orientation.

+1

But CoverFlow is so ubercool, you know...

I hate it.

And anyway, is it just me, or do we see the same stuff every day shown when someone demos multitouch. There was a real lag in touch and reaction, if you ask me.

Guess that's why the piano was not played multitouch.

And honestly, I personally think it's a gimmick, and in no way useful. The current GUI scheme is perfect, esp. when used with a Tablet.

[mashkina]

What's funny is if Apple had demoed the EXACT SAME THING, the majority of you would say this is the coolest thing ever, all positive ratings, etc. You know there is still jealousy, hatred towards Microsoft whenever they do something and it gets bad pub here. Doesn't make much sense to me. Fanboys, you all seem like

Apple doesn't show off technology in demos or in videos, it does it in commercial products, so that you and me can buy in the next week. And let me tell you, that's a big difference. Remember when SJ was asked last sept about multi-touch in the Mac; he answered "it is not an issue to discuss at this moment". Of course, they are working on that, but they won't show it until it is ready. And whenever it comes it will be live, and not in a shixxy video. Gates and Ballmer are nothing but opportunists, pretenders.

What I am still wondering is on how MS is going to do the multitouch thing if they don't do hardware?! If every PC manufacturer provides their own hardware, with different performance (the picture dragging in the video is really 70's), lattency, problems, etc., will they be able to make it? I don't think so. But anyway, at least they confirm that Apple is doing good, which is the first time I hear that from Ballmer.

[farqueue]

looks clumsy as

[Mankin5344]

Multitouch is cool on the iPhone, but I don't think I would really like it on a 13" screen. I'm sure some people would find a need for it. It just isn't something that I think I would use.

[BongoBanger]

I am not sure about the statement that people buy the computer to run windows.

They don't, however the wouldn't buy the computer if it didn't have an OS and the de facto standard OS is Windows. When Ballmer is saying MS sell 270 million PCs that's what he's referring to - there simply wouldn't be a PC market if Windows wasn't available.

Although it would be more honest of him to say "We'll sell 270 million copies of our OS compared to Apple's 10 million".

Most people could care less about the OS. The computer is a tool people want to use it as a tool, even if windows Linux or OSX.

Absolutely true. Most people - and corporations - want something that works, is familiar, well supported and lets them do what they want to do. Like it or not Windows delivers this which is why it's so utterly dominant.

However people are a bit afraid of buying something expensive like office and then finding that it does not work well in the particular OS they have so they have a tendency to stick to an OS they know will run it. BY the way most people do not know or use 15% of their OS capabilities.

Exactly - most people don't care about OSX or Linux because they can do everything they want on Windows at a cheaper price. Leopard may be slightly better than Vista, Apple machines may be a bit more reliable than, say, a Dell but hardly anyone cares because the differences aren't enough to make them switch from something that is comfortable and familiar.

As for W7, too early to say what it'll deliver although the ability to use different interfaces is a good idea.

[Shasterball]

I like that things are going in this direction. I think it will fuel the whole "dockable" tablet computer. Take your comp out, mess with it in the living room, get some pics from your friend's phone/camera without having to move rooms, book movie tickets and then slide it back in on the way out...

[i.maverick]

his thread shows the plans for windows 7. And would you look at that, they want to make the touch platform to be mainstream.

this link, http://microsoft.blognewschannel.com/archives/2008/01/06/exclusive-windows-mobile-7-to-focus-on-touch-and-motion-gestures/
tells us about WM 7. Guess what, touch based again. So, is there nothing left for microsoft to do but follow??
Damn!
:eek:
:cool:

[Shasterball]

I do NOT want to see Mac OS X go multitouch. Current implementations (at this time) are inefficient and will unnecessarily burden the CPU/GPU. Multi-touch, IMO, is only reasonable for MIDs and PMPs.

But, won't mobile/tablet comps be a lot more powerful in a few years when/if multi-touch comes out?

[dicklacara]

I don't want fingerprints on my screen.

I do :D

Better fingerprints on your screen than footprints on your back!

Seriously, the mouse was not universally accepted (even ridiculed by some) when it was broadly introduced.

MultiTouch will not just change how we do things, it will change the kinds of things we do.

Things like manipulation of 3D objects in space-- that would be difficult or impossible with conventional UIs.

[camsoft]

Touch and VR will continue to work their way into computer operating systems, but in an evolutionary fashion. The ergonomics of interacting with an interface by touching objects on a screen are very different from the mouse-and-keyboard approach we've become used to. For one thing, the relatively small muscles used to manipulate a mouse or other pointing device are much more suited to fine manipulation than the larger ones used when moving objects on anything bigger than a small screen.

For text entry, a touch-based interface will be hard pressed to keep up with keyboards and related devices. And even the best current VR systems are flawed, and there are many situations where you don't want the din of multiple users talking to their computers.

Still, Apple and MS are to be applauded for continuing research and for looking for places where incorporating this technology makes sense.

Agreed. But I do think that we have to think outside the box and not try to apply our thoughts on how voice or touch will work with current UI as I think UI will radicly change in the next 50 years.

[i.maverick]

maybe what they would do is keep a hybrid option. like in desktops, u can use the touch and use it with the keyboard and mouse as well. graphic design apps and others which require more precision can be used the old fashioned way.
or maybe they would make a slate. A touch slate replicating the desktop on it and we can do all the touch stuff which would perform the actions on the main screen. And like the iPhone, the keyboard pops up on the slate when required. It would have to have some sort of tactile feedback IMO. Maybe haptic.
Maybe this is what the 'electric computers' are.
:rolleyes:

[wheelhot]

I'd like to see multi-touch on the keyboard. Get rid of the keys, and replace it with an actual screen. This display can change depending on what you are doing. For typing, touch keyboard. For photo manipulation, a grid?? Not thought about it any great depth :P

If I recall, Apple has a patent in multi touch keyboard but the details is sketchy.

Anyway, after reading people comment, I came to agreement that multi touch screen on notebook or PC is useless unless its a 12" screen (maybe 13?). Cause think about it, do you want to constantly touch your 15" screen and drag applications around or such, Its a hassle to control window if you have a big monitor.

Besides, some notebook screens are flimsy, what do you think will happen if people kept touching their flimsy screen to move things around?

I prefer if Apple do like Nintendo DS concept. It would be cool if you have the fully customize touch screen keyboard. Imagine if you have all the photoshop palettes on the tip of your finger.

Overall, multi touch screen on notebook or large monitor is a gimmick and not a function :cool:

[Bubba Satori]

Except when 2010 rolls around if won't be ready, just like Vista. :rolleyes:


Eggsachery. And half of the new features will have been removed. June 2009 MS will announce that 60% of Windows 7 will have to be rewritten. :rolleyes:

[wheelhot]

I'd like to see multi-touch on the keyboard. Get rid of the keys, and replace it with an actual screen. This display can change depending on what you are doing. For typing, touch keyboard. For photo manipulation, a grid?? Not thought about it any great depth :P

If I recall, Apple has a patent in multi touch keyboard but the details is sketchy.

Anyway, after reading people comment, I came to agreement that multi touch screen on notebook or PC is useless unless its a 12" screen (maybe 13?). Cause think about it, do you want to constantly touch your 15" screen and drag applications around or such, Its a hassle to control window if you have a big monitor.

Besides, some notebook screens are flimsy, what do you think will happen if people kept touching their flimsy screen to move things around?

I prefer if Apple do like Nintendo DS concept. It would be cool if you have the fully customize touch screen keyboard. Imagine if you have all the photoshop palettes on the tip of your finger.

Come to think of it, if you have a fully customize keyboard, meaning you will have more screen space for your illustration or design cause all of the palettes can be placed on the tip of your finger :D

Overall, multi touch screen on notebook or large monitor is a gimmick and not a function :cool:

I remember that MS says that they will remove the traditional start menu button in Longhorn but look what Vista shows.

[i.maverick]

or make the os a lot more audio command based. like translating audio inout to text and email it and stuff.
maybe something like the system he has in ironman but a lot more subdued. not pure AI. but somewhat.
hasn't that been done before?
:rolleyes:

[Digitalclips]

The Microsoft implementation running on a full-fledged computer doesn't seem as responsive as the Apple implementation on the resource-strapped iPhone.

Also, I would be shocked if Jobs lets Microsoft steal his* user-interface yet again.

*Yes, I'm aware Jobs stole the ideas from Xerox PARC.

While Gates did steal Mac OS I think Xerox PARK let Steve use their concept.

[dicklacara]

Great! So my big fat hands can get in the way of looking at whats on the screen. What is the big amazing draw to using your hands to manipulate what is on the screen? If it's a coffee table, well fine! But not my laptop screen. There is nothing worse that smudges on an LCD screen.

Thanks, but no thanks.

The MultiTouch surface is not required to be the same surface as the Display surface (e.g. screen). A laptop can easily contain a horizontal MT surface that allows manipulation of objects on the vertical screen.

The OS and "applications" would let you interface with MT, as appropriate-- thus you could get your hands "dirty", but not your screen.

[Dagless]

I don't think anybody believed Sony would be in this position 2 years ago so in a sense the $6bn+ loss of the Xbox project can be seen to be an important strategic move so far - yet there is little sign of MS capitalising on it yet.

Speak for yourself. The PSP was the turning point where Sony wanted to have the graphical and power edge to their systems, only by doing so they added hefty price tags so the PSP and PS3 are now (globally) in last in their respective markets.

But anyways. I don't mind Windows trying this tech out. It likely won't be as well implimented as Apple, they've had this and similar tech out a long time so they're already one step ahead. Just that as a Windows user too I'd like proper touchscreen functionality.
As an RSI sufferer myself I find it good to swap between inputs, an extra, useable one would be nice.

[richard.mac]

While Gates did steal Mac OS I think Xerox PARK let Steve use their concept.

yes Xerox did allow Steve and the gang to use their concept but Apple did too allow Bill and his gang have a peak at the "crown jewels". the problem was that the Apple Macintosh didnt have much software and Microsoft had a lot or developers devloping applications for Windows on the "PC" with the GUI from Apple.

so monkey boy Ballmer is right… its all about the "DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS… (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)"

[bigmc6000]

MS doesn't sell PC's. It's amazing how even MS likes to compare themselves to Apple when Apple is in both the OS and hardware business. MS is going to sell 270 million licenses but, as others have pointed out, that includes all those XP boxes that have free upgrades to Vista if you want it (if being the key word on that one). Also, I think being successful would have to depend on who you talk to - there's millions of people who hold MS shares that aren't at all happy with it's stagnant performance over the past few years.

[macFanDave]

Yet another "me-too", buzzword-compliant product from Microsoft. This adds just another page to the dull, uninspired history to a dull, uninspired company.

You hear about this vaunted Microsoft Research, but what have they ever done? With the amount of money they supposedly spend, they must take the finest minds in computer science and eat their flesh!

[aaronsullivan]

Multi touch is the first significant interface paradigm shift since the mouse and it's pretty funny to see people react with all the naysaying just like people did for the mouse (and, lest we forget, all that naysaying is one reason the original Mac was forced into a niche market.)

Whether it's directly on screen, touching from the back of the screen or using a keyboard/touch-surface combination, this newish way to interface has merit in both intuitiveness (kids and grandmas can get it) and efficiency (give me a mouse equivalent to zooming, moving, and rotating a photo as easily as with multitouch if you disagree.)

The visual interface will need to transform in order for it to be utilized better in just the same way the interface transformed after the mouse replaced the keyboard as the primary input device. Also, the form factor of a computer could very well change. I can see the iMac leaning towards a sort of light table configuration for instance.

Personally, I hope the implementations begin to include optional pressure sensitive stylus input, as well. This would be like shown in a previous Apple patent. It recognizes the signature of the side of your hand pressing against the surface and ignores it while looking for the tiny stylus "blob".

Fight it if you want. I look forward to Apple's demonstrations which will, at the very least, have more flair. At least the photos will have young people in the outdoors and stuff. ;)

(Oh, and all these naysayers on Microsoft R&D. The Surface is real, and excellently implemented with plenty of new ideas and will be widespread in a couple years. I'm no lover of Microsoft but at least have the decency/objectivity to recognize when they come up with some great stuff!)

[johnsy]

microsoft will wait till Dell will advance their hardware and Dell will wait till Microsoft will advance their software... Hmmm.

Competition is good however.

[MacSimoPark]

Windows doesn't GO multi-touch, it just spatchcocks multi-touch features into a boring and unoriginal operating system to little or no effect.

[EagerDragon]

I believe that multi-touch is just the beginning of how we will interact with computers in the future. Voice control will also need to be integrated. Most operations like writing, note taking, commands like open file, searches, can all be implemented via voice. Touch then is used to interact with the material being displayed.

The combination of voice and multi-touch is where we are going, however multi-touch is a misnomer, as there would be little need to actually touch the screen. The computer via a camera or via the screen integrated sensors (Apple patent where camera sensors were part of the screen) can view and react to our gestures (minority report like).

I think we are at the edge of a big shift on how we interact with computers. Yes voice recognition and multi-touch have a ways to go, but we are already at the beginning of the yellow brick road.

It is now time to open our minds and recognize it. Forget keyboards and mice they hold you back and keep from from the vision.

Both companies M$ and Apple should be commended for recognizing the need and for the research they are doing in user interaction with out the need to actually touch the computer.

Use your imagination, it is coming.:apple:

Forget the 12 hours at the keyboard, remove from your mind the tired limbs from holding your arms at odd angles. All that is holding you back, you are thinking of the mechanics and implementation. Those are issues to be solved by Apple and M$. Your job is to ignore all of that and instead dream how to write the applications that can be controlled via speech and gestures. Leave the mechanics to Apple and M$. Computers are very powerful and will be even more powerful in the future. 12 cores, 64 cores, 1024 cores will be possible. Your tone and voice will be recognized with 99.99997% accuracy and the computer will correct it at the end of the sentence when it can then see if the word it selected fit within the sentence or not.

[goosnarrggh]

MS is going to sell 270 million licenses but, as others have pointed out, that includes all those XP boxes that have free upgrades to Vista if you want it (if being the key word on that one).

There was a transition period where OEM copies of XP pre-installed on certain models manufactured by MS's approved partners list, included a "free" Vista upgrade. That is no longer available on any machines sold today (unless some specific manufacturers are internally purchasing OEM Vista licenses and exercising their downgrade rights - see below - in that case, MS is still getting paid).

Conversely, what's happening now is that all OEM copies of Vista Business and Vista Ulimate come with a free license to switch back to XP if the end-user chooses. That is proving to be a very popular option.

[Rot'nApple]

They have a coating material now that helps with that. You can touch with PB&J and it comes right off.

It's called 'Glass'... :D

[Kwill]

Nothing we haven't already seen. Although that piano thing was kind of cool.

Piano was REAL cool. Touch screen opens up additional opportunities for Kiosks and custom retail applications such as cash registers in restaurants.

[diegofcam]

At the tech conference All things D, Microsoft gave a small preview of Windows 7 with... multi-touch support.

I can tell you one thing... if Microsoft beats Apple to the punch on this one, Jobs sure wont be happy!

Click for Link (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/microsoft-demonstrates-multi-touch.aspx)

I dont see the use of this. I rather use the mouse than extend mi arm into the screen. This is a complete waste of time for desktops and laptops. It will be a nice feature on tablet computers, but since tablet computers have a tiny portion of the martket, this is completely irrelevant.

Microsoft is completely clueless.

[miyazakifan]

Originally Posted by Steve Balmer
There's a lot in Windows 7, and our goal's got to be, with our hardware partners, to produce fantastic PCs. ... We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

Um . . . since when does MS sell PCs? Ballmer really is such an idiot.

And as for all those wonderful new features in Windows 7, well . . . .

Anybody remember that great long list of "new" features for Longhorn? And inevitably it will be delayed at least 2 years.

[aaronsullivan]

Hmm... so this thread seems to divide people into just a few categories.

Those who read rumor sites in eager anticipation of the tech they have already imagined becoming real.

Those who read rumor sites in order to naysay anything new until they begin to use and appreciate it and compare all other new things negatively to it.

Those who are bored and just like saying stupid stuff on forums to see how people react.

Of course, there's all the in-betweens I guess. :p

[L3X]

All that stuff is easier with a mouse.

Multi-touch is nice, but an OS should not be built around multi-touch unless it's something like the Surface computer which could be used in coffee shops and such.

[CaptainScarlet]

These touch-screen computer don't look very comfortable at all. How long can you keep up your arms out to move pictures around. Looks like your bending over too much in your chair and kissing the screen to do these motions. I see this as a gimmick for consumers...."Look what I can do!!!"...

[eXan]

What's funny is if Apple had demoed the EXACT SAME THING, the majority of you would say this is the coolest thing ever, all positive ratings, etc. You know there is still jealousy, hatred towards Microsoft whenever they do something and it gets bad pub here. Doesn't make much sense to me. Fanboys, you all seem like

I suggest you read the thread before posting...

[dicklacara]

My thoughts exactly. If this was about Steve Jobs demoing a new multi-touch Mac, everyone would be ooing and ahhing over it, but since it's Microsoft, everyone comes out in true fanboi form. I have no doubt that Apple has something up their sleeve that will top this by a landslide, but to sit around and act like all of a sudden none of us are interested in having multi-touch display & operating system built into our desktop/laptop computers is just naive. Heck, I remember when there was a thread going on here not to long ago with everyone posting mockups of what a multi-touch iMac might look like.

Well said!

Whether we like it or not, MultiTouch and MultiTouch Screens are facts of life.

We can argue who's innovating, who's copying... to what purpose.

We can [try to] justify the status quo by saying MT can't do WP, spreadsheets, CAD... whatever, as well as a mouse/kb/graphics tablet... barcode reader (whatever).

That may well be true... but, MT allows you to do things you just can't do (or do as easily) with other UIs.

With MT, every computer display can be: a light table; a multi-key equalizer; a piano keyboard; a guitar fretboard; an interactive business planner*; a security monitor/control center; a 3D blank slate for artists & musicians.

*Something like interactively manipulating business charts & presos to change the desired "results" and then generating the "numbers" required to achieve these "results".

Just look at what MT has already spawned, for example: HP's media computer ads, CNN & Fox Election Walls, and yes, the iPhone with its simple, elegant hyper-focused UI.

To deny that MT is here, has/will change what we do, and that there is so much more to come is just Pissin' in the wind!

[johnnyjibbs]

It's all a blatant rip-off of what we've seen on the iphone/multi-touch. I admit that the Surface looks good, but you can trust Microsoft to balls it up. So far there looks like nothing new over what Apple has shown. Just wait until Lynx* comes to town and blows Microsoft's measly implementation of Windows 7 out of the water.

Or maybe Microsoft wants to add a further version of windows to its future line-up - "Vista 2 Multi-Touch Home Premium"? :D



* or whatever Mac OS X 10.6 ends up being called.

[OllyW]

I think this is the direction all things will eventually go, but not by making the screen multi-touch. It makes it too messy, and looking down isnt that natural.

I'd like to see multi-touch on the keyboard. Get rid of the keys, and replace it with an actual screen. This display can change depending on what you are doing. For typing, touch keyboard. For photo manipulation, a grid?? Not thought about it any great depth :P

This is exactly as I see it working out.

I can't even reach the screen on my 24" iMac from where I am sitting. A multi-touch screen / keypad to replace the keyboard and mouse would work, at least with desktop computers.

[dwsolberg]

I think the essential confusion here is that Microsoft sells PCs. It doesn't.

To make multi-touch work, you need two parts: software and hardware. At least for PCs, Microsoft only makes software. That means implementation will depend on PC makers adding multi-touch components, which until at least 2010 is unlikely to happen. That means everyone has to buy hardware to support multi-touch (which MS partners love). Because there is no incremental build-up or testing against known hardware, multi-touch on PCs will be unlikely to work well at first. Over time, the truly useful elements of multi-touch will be discovered, then MS will promise another operating system to build those in, and there will be another round of buying to get the originally promised features. This plan works well enough for a monopoly power like MS because customers continue to buy. Unfortunately, the customer will have to wait quite a while to get an implementation that works. In the meantime, customers get more bloated, incompatible crap with promises for a brighter future.

My opinion is that the future is now: XP (SP2) is probably as close to working well as MS is likely to get. Pretty much all the software works, the drivers work, and it's speedy and relatively stable. (Of course, it's also old technology with memory and processor limitations.) In five years, Vista will probably be pretty good but similarly behind the times.

[Phillyzero]

In the future will there be fingerprint/oil/smudge proof screens :(

[RichardI]

They announced Widows 7 for 2010? So, 2015 then??:D

Rich :cool:

[daveporter]

Nothing on that video that my iPhone does not already do in essentially the same way.

Just M$ trying to innovate by emulation again.

Wonder if they will even come up with an idea on their own?

[blindzero]

Looks cool. Although nothing remotely new at this point. Surface was what a year ago? And of course IPhone and all the "touch" phones. You think a computer running multi touch would all you to do more than play with images and maps. Give real world scenarios instead of Wii level "fun".

Funny how the laptop screen is pushed around from his pecking in the beginning and then it looks like it was locked down so it didn't move for the second half. I don't mind the smudges but it looks like it would be a huge pain to do on a laptop. Not enough stability.

[gkarris]

^^^^

I think mainly it would be for "convertible" Tablets. You can use it as a surface, or convert to use as a standard PC.

They announced Widows 7 for 2010? So, 2015 then??:D

Rich :cool:

Meanwhile, OS X Touch, already used in iPhones and iPod Touches, gets extended to the new Newton on June 6th, and a new Mac Tablet this August.... :eek:

Windows 7 2015, Mac OS X Touch 2007...

[happydude]

huh, so windows playing catchup again. undoubtedly an inferior product will be created and marketed, full of holes and bugs, but as ballmer said, they'll get it installed in 27 million computers because their blind base will buy anything dropped in front of them (sounds familiar . . . but at least the apple blind base can have a bit more confidence in stability and security . . . )

[AidenShaw]

While Gates did steal Mac OS I think Xerox PARK let Steve use their concept.


The courts ruled that Apple licensed the Mac OS UI to Microsoft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer%2C_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation

[mrrydogg]

>We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

Got to love this guy. Windows 7... To be released soon. :D

I was unaware Microsoft sold PC's, I thought they were a software company. We have seen what happens when they try to make their own hardware (Zune, Xbox Ring of Death).

[trip1ex]

Typical MS. Pure copy of what Apple already has. It looks awkward using the tech on a regular laptop screen too which shows you that MS is clueless as to ways to make this tech useful to consumers other than what Apple showed them.

[Clive At Five]

I've never liked mice. The only advantage I feel they bring is for gaming. When I'm on my laptop, the only time I plug in my mouse it is to play StarCraft. Otherwise, I prefer almost exclusively keyboard navigation... supplimented occasionally by trackpad... or in some futurized implementation, I could see myself using a virtual keyboard with trackpad-like functionality.

My ideal navigational tool for today's technology would be a keyboard with a trackpad on it (I can never find one with a full keyboard, trackpad, arrow pad and numeric keypad). I had the genius idea a while back to create a modular keyboard where a user could purchase components (s)he needed and attach them adjacent to a keyboard in any order (s)he pleased... but then I discovered Apple already patented it (http://www.google.com/patents?id=3wMpAAAAEBAJ). ;):p

Damn them. I could be rich.

I like that things are going in this direction. I think it will fuel the whole "dockable" tablet computer. Take your comp out, mess with it in the living room, get some pics from your friend's phone/camera without having to move rooms, book movie tickets and then slide it back in on the way out...

I was almost certain the recent iMac redesign would be just this. I mean, they're already using the mobile parts for the iMac... give the tablet portion the CPU, enough solid-state memory for system essentials, and WiFi to use "Back To My Mac" to interface with the base station, which houses an HDD, GPU, optical drive and other garbage.

*****... is there a patent for a convertable computer? I better get on that before Apple beats me again!

-Clive

[ilflyya]

If this takes off with consumers, it is time to buy stock in screen cleaning products! I for one hate it when someone touches my screen! Now, touching an iPhone screen is obviously different...

[DaddyShortLegs]

...as well as having to upgrade your PC when this rubbish comes out (latest Processor, huge amount of RAM, latest graphics card, etc) you will also need a second mouse!

[rdrr]

First let me state that I am a fan of Apple products, and I have replaced all of my systems with Macs. Well... Except the xbox 360... :o

Can't we all just get along? Even SJ said, "good artists copy, great ones steal". I don't think that SJ of BG stay awake at night and worry about which one is coming out with technology X. They both have made significant contributions to the computer market. They both are multi-gazillionairs, (Bill more than Steve), they both think they are the best, and they both don't care if you or I buy a Mac or PC w/Windows.

[backdraft]

Multitouch screens are interesting, but its going no where for the average consumer/business owner.

What I am surprised MS is not doing is focusing on workflow. How can they tweak their OS to make business more productive? They completely ignore the subtle tweaks to their interface they could be making to make windows more productive for their huge market share in business.

On the other hand you see the roots of NeXT (efficient work flow) continually improved in Mac OS. Are spaces or Expose revolutionary features? No. However, Apple is continually looking at technologies out there that can be added to improve work flow. This is important not only to your home user, but to someone who has to get work done on a computer. The less time fiddling around, is time better spent on other tasks.

If you were at all involved in the Longhorn/Vista Beta process then you know how disappointing the result is. If this is Windows 7, then it seems to be following in the path of Longhorn. Lots of ephemeral focus on inconsequential features.

Speaking of workflow (on a totally random note): http://www.gridironsoftware.com/Flow/guidedtour

Could see multi-touch applied here for navigating the node interface.

[GQB]

At the tech conference All things D, Microsoft gave a small preview of Windows 7 with... multi-touch support.

I can tell you one thing... if Microsoft beats Apple to the punch on this one, Jobs sure wont be happy!

Click for Link (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/microsoft-demonstrates-multi-touch.aspx)

Beat Apple to the punch with what?
Mocked up demos of non-existent features for a non-existent OS?
Oh right... that's how MS has 'produced' things for the past 20 years.
Its called "FUD".

[gcortega]

stop hating all you haters

[Peruchito]

For the record, I asked Steve Wozniak whether Apple stole the idea from Xerox Parc. He told me that Apple gave Xerox stock options in the company in return for the idea. So you can say it was a "steal" based upon it's success in comparison to what the options were worth, but by definition that is not stolen. Xerox sold it for what they wanted for it.

also, most of parc went to work for apple.

[elgruga]

VAPOURWARE.
Thats what this is.
Whats even worse is its vapourware of a dubious quality. Stupid Microsoft cant even do vapourware well.

Waving your arms about to touch the computer screen? NO. Aint going to happen.

The only reason the iPhone has a touch screen is because its a unified product and uses the touch screen to avoid having a pull-out keyboard. By combining all the functions on the screen the iPhone becomes the brilliant device it is.

But its a small hand-held communications device. Not a Big Ass Table or a PC.

This is about as stupid as saying that the steering wheel is a thing of the past and the windshield on your car is where you can do everything.
Now you are doing 100, with your nose 3" from the windshield. Nice.
And its all smudged from your greasy pizza-eating fingers as well.

Please stop with these STUPID stories. Reporting M$ vapourware is a waste of bandwidth.

[elgruga]

stop hating all you haters

Thats not a post.

If there is anger about Microsoft that leads to what you so eloquently call 'haters', then it is because Microsoft has cheated and lied and stolen for many years.

Perhaps some folks are annoyed at that.

[dicklacara]

...For text entry, a touch-based interface will be hard pressed to keep up with keyboards and related devices...

Mmmm... rather than trying to make a MT surface into a KB, maybe the solution is to evolve the KB into a MT surface.

I wonder if there were a way to create a flexible, flat, surface with a "feel" similar to a KB (subtle depressions/bumps), while at the same time being usable as a continuous MT surface. Display technology need not be included in the surface (but could be).

Then, there is a totally different approach. Abandon the QWERTY keyboard as we know it. A good typist gets 100 wpm... a good stenotypist gets 200-300 wpm on a smaller KB.

When Doug Englebart introduced the mouse, at the same demo he used a 5-key chordset keyboard for text entry. He claimed that with a few hours training, experienced typists were more proficient on the chordset (with one hand) than on the QWERTY.

Now, say this is true, and we rethink the "entry surface" on a laptop or a desktop. While a non-tactile virtual QWERTY KB may be difficult to simulate/use, a virtual 5-Key Chordset KB should be relative easy.

In fact the Chordset KB could come and go, say with a double-tap. It would be available anywhere on the "surface" with either hand. Not only that, the virtual Chordset would conform itself to fit the individual's hand rather than vice versa.

So, we could have a flat surface (horizontal, or tilted to any comfortable angle) that allows production (chordset) typing with either hand and MT mousing (positioning, selecting, scrolling, zooming, tapping, pinching, flicking) with the other hand (or both)... say hello to productivity, and goodbye to carpal-tunnel!

When, viewed this way MT and KB/Mouse are not conflicting technologies, rather they are supportive as a "means to an end", result: Productivity!

[guzhogi]

VAPOURWARE.
Thats what this is.
Whats even worse is its vapourware of a dubious quality. Stupid Microsoft cant even do vapourware well.

Waving your arms about to touch the computer screen? NO. Aint going to happen.

The only reason the iPhone has a touch screen is because its a unified product and uses the touch screen to avoid having a pull-out keyboard. By combining all the functions on the screen the iPhone becomes the brilliant device it is.

But its a small hand-held communications device. Not a Big Ass Table or a PC.

This is about as stupid as saying that the steering wheel is a thing of the past and the windshield on your car is where you can do everything.
Now you are doing 100, with your nose 3" from the windshield. Nice.
And its all smudged from your greasy pizza-eating fingers as well.

Please stop with these STUPID stories. Reporting M$ vapourware is a waste of bandwidth.

Similar things have been said when Apple first released the original iMac w/o a floppy drive.

[t0mat0]

Then, there is a totally different approach. Abandon the QWERTY keyboard as we know it.
<SNIP> When, viewed this way MT and KB/Mouse are not conflicting technologies, rather they are supportive as a "means to an end", result: Productivity!

Apart from your call for haptics, I think you have an interesting point. I'm a fan of Engelbart's work too, ever since I saw the Scoble interview with him.

What I'm thinking is feasible, is the software to link a chord based system onto a iPhone or other Apple device. It might not push to everyone, but i'd imagine Engelbart might like a crack at porting over his glove concept to typing and gesturing via a Touch OS... You might not sell many, but it might be superior in certain applications

[BongoBanger]

Thats not a post.

If there is anger about Microsoft that leads to what you so eloquently call 'haters', then it is because Microsoft has cheated and lied and stolen for many years.

Perhaps some folks are annoyed at that.

Well so have Apple and most corporations.

[infowarfare]

Vista is more secure than XP (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9084738) --ComputerWorld

Vista More Secure than XP (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/32596/108/) --TgDaily

Its really up in the air at this point.

Ahh, there you go again, not actually doing your research. When someone mentions Vista is no more secure than XP you simply searched for "Vista More secure than XP" and come up with these two articles... but you didn't bother to read them did you (or maybe didn't understand them?)

The first one, if you actually read it, conceded that Vista was not that much more secure than XP and that it would have to do a whole lot better to make the claims that it does. (they even go so far as to say that Windows 2000 was more secure than both XP and Vista!) here is an excerpt from that article:

Overall, Greene was disappointed in the stats for Windows. "I didn't think the situation would be this bad in general," he said, adding that Microsoft's claims that Vista is substantially more secure than XP doesn't jibe with the ThreatFire numbers.

And the second article gets even better, with it's outrages claims (making it look like Vista is more secure than any other OS out of the gate) because if you actually see where the original article is from, it was written by Jeff Jones who is the Director Of Security at Microsoft! So of COURSE he's going to say that he found less vulnerabilities than any other OS and that he caught them all and fixed them... his job is at stake!

Just more Fear Uncertainty and Doubt from the Microsoft camp as per usual..

[BongoBanger]

The first one, if you actually read it, conceded that Vista was not that much more secure than XP

But more, not less. I'd also point out that CRN tested Vista without AV software which, as arstechnica put it:

Faulting an AV-less Vista for not stopping viruses is a bit like faulting a door without a lock for opening when the handle is twisted

Here's the full article which gives some perspective on the issue:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070530-windows-vista-no-more-secure-than-xp-report.html

And the second article gets even better, with it's outrages claims (making it look like Vista is more secure than any other OS out of the gate) because if you actually see where the original article is from, it was written by Jeff Jones who is the Director Of Security at Microsoft! So of COURSE he's going to say that he found less vulnerabilities than any other OS and that he caught them all and fixed them... his job is at stake!

Tut tut. Jeff Jones is one of the most respected security people in the industry which is why MS employ him - if you're the biggest OS manufacturer in the world then you get the best people in.

Jones is perfectly open about his employment with MS and has also been open with the test criteria - which are independent - to the point of being quite happy for anyone else to run the tests.

Here's a link to his blog:

http://blogs.technet.com/security/

Just more Fear Uncertainty and Doubt from the Microsoft camp as per usual..

Well, no. Just more ill informed nonsense form people who don't do their research.

[jpine]

Try this experiment. Hold your arm out straight for 60 seconds. A little fatigued, no? Now multiply that by your best guess as to how long you use your computer during the day. My point is that using multi-touch on a vertical surface for an extended length of time will be painful to the neck and shoulder. It is bad enough for some using a keyboard and mouse when gravity is not such an issue. Just my $.02 :D

[NT1440]

Try this experiment. Hold your arm out straight for 60 seconds. A little fatigued, no? Now multiply that by your best guess as to how long you use your computer during the day. My point is that using multi-touch on a vertical surface for an extended length of time will be painful to the neck and shoulder. It is bad enough for some using a keyboard and mouse when gravity is not such an issue. Just my $.02 :D

may be just your two sense, but also a very true and common sense fact, now why cant a certain company see taht?:apple:

[louden]

I'm all for competition, but I just have more faith in Apple's design team to build a better user experience. This will be Microsoft's first release of multi-touch usage, and experience shows Microsoft's first release of anything always has flaws...

I also think MS and it's processes are fundamentally flawed. I'm going to gues whatever they produce will be over-engineered.

[Rhosfelt]

Of course this is ugly it is windows, i mean, even the pictures were ugly.

This is not a good idea, windows will mess up the multi-touch technology for next year, and mac will have to save the computing world once again. Plus I can do just about all of that with my iPod touch, even if I have to use the installer. They pretty much have nothing new going on...

[NT1440]

Of course this is ugly it is windows, i mean, even the pictures were ugly.

This is not a good idea, windows will mess up the multi-touch technology for next year, and mac will have to save the computing world once again. Plus I can do just about all of that with my iPod touch, even if I have to use the installer. They pretty much have nothing new going on...

does windows ever?

and what makes me laugh is that they are essentially relying on computer companies to have multi touch STANDARD capable computers by the release of this "new" OS. Not likely to happen, or be inexpensive. Without the touch capabilities, its essentiall vista (its been stated its built directly from vista).

no dice microsoft.

:apple:

[inkswamp]

It has to bug them that Apple is the "darling" of the media with the iPhone and their multitouch etc... while MS is portrayed as the evil one.

I actually do think it would bother them. (well, maybe just Ballmer)

I'm sure Apple is on their radar and they are aware of the media and consumer perceptions and that they have their own opinions/feelings about that, but what I think is weird is when my fellow Mac users on these forums talk about how MS is timing any of their product releases or announcements in relation to some bit of rumored minutiae at WWDC. I'm willing to bet that most execs at MS, including Gates and Ballmer, are only peripherally aware of WWDC and are completely unaware of any rumored announcements that may occur there.

[Much Ado]

Hmm...

The reason there's multi-touch on the iPhone is to maximize what you can do with it, e.g. no plastic keyboards required. It makes what screen space there is more versatile.

With a desktop- err... why not just buy a keyboard?

Answers on a postcard, Microsoft.

[BongoBanger]

You guys do realise that it's not an exclusive means of operation, right?

Please, for the love of God, tell me you do.

[bikemonkey]

Quite!

This is the company that has never innovated. Never got anything right. Why does anyone think that just because they pretend this is new, that people will buy it?

To be ahead of the game you have to be right. M$ have never been right.

Interesting point of view...considering Windows is by far the highest selling and most used operating system in the world.

Also, what is with this Microsoft bashing from everyone? Yeh yeh, it's not smooth, but that's beta software for you. At least MS is trying. Who knows what input devices we'll be using in five years time and MS may have even worked out really good ergonomics for such a device by then.

I'm glad to see such a large company pushing this technology as they are in the best position to influence the market. Also, like a few people have said, if Apple had demoed this, everyone would be singing them praise.

Sometimes I feel embarrassed to use a Mac...

[John Dillinger]

I mean, who really would have believed Microsoft would be outselling the playstation?

They're not actually anymore. Playstation 3 with its higher price has been outselling the 360 worldwide since october/nov 07. In the US too, bar a few weeks, since jan this year. Even in the U.S.

360 has outsold the PS3 overall because it was rushed out a year early--which led to design flaws and a 3year extended warranty costing $1Billion in losses. They still havent fixed it thats whys IGN-the biggest online gaming site- runs a podcast entitled "The Three Red Rings Podcast". IGN will keep it so until the errors return to an acceptable rate. Thats embarrassing. They're the world's richest tech company. It came out November '05.

In fact, if you even compare sales of first year for 360 versus PS3, the PS3 has been selling much better, again despite retailing significantly higher. That is some achievement when you factor in all the negative press it received for being so expensive, having no games etc.

see here: http://www.vgchartz.com/

[dicklacara]

Apart from your call for haptics, I think you have an interesting point. I'm a fan of Engelbart's work too, ever since I saw the Scoble interview with him.

What I'm thinking is feasible, is the software to link a chord based system onto a iPhone or other Apple device. It might not push to everyone, but i'd imagine Engelbart might like a crack at porting over his glove concept to typing and gesturing via a Touch OS... You might not sell many, but it might be superior in certain applications

Yes! It is interesting to me how proficient touch-typists can also be proficient text messagers-- using two thumbs, teensy keys, or even a touch keypad.

A chord-based system, done right, could also have very broad appeal to 2-finger typists-- just because it is (or could be) easier to learn and use) than what is currently being used by millions on non-QWERTY cell phones!

If you can figure out how to single/double/triple-press keys on a 10-key pad to enter text (with some speed), playing chords to do the same should be a piece of cake!

The point: If you are going to [try to] supersede the QWERTY KB, don't give 'em a "Virtual QWERTY KB". Rather give them a solution that allows 'em to do more (and better) with less!

That, IMO, is the potential, and it applies to typists and non-typists, alike!

[Syrus28]

does windows ever?

and what makes me laugh is that they are essentially relying on computer companies to have multi touch STANDARD capable computers by the release of this "new" OS. Not likely to happen, or be inexpensive. Without the touch capabilities, its essentiall vista (its been stated its built directly from vista).

no dice microsoft.

:apple:
Not be to rude, but don't you think that Microsoft would have a large degree of leverage over the PC manufactures, who essentially base their entire multi-billion $ existence on their product. Especially Dell, who is probably looking for any chance to take Apple out of the picture.

[NT1440]

You guys do realise that it's not an exclusive means of operation, right?

Please, for the love of God, tell me you do.
yes, but this is essentially the "defining" difference (why else would they demo it) between 7 and vista. and frankly not even the microsoft fanboys are all that impressed (take a hop over to engadget or giz). Sure there will be a few more tweaks and differences, but 7 is built upon vista.

[Much Ado]

You guys do realise that it's not an exclusive means of operation, right?

Please, for the love of God, tell me you do.

Why design something like this if you do not expect extended use?

[BongoBanger]

Why design something like this if you do not expect extended use?

I think you're confusing extended and constant.

[NT1440]

Not be to rude, but don't you think that Microsoft would have a large degree of leverage over the PC manufactures, who essentially base their entire multi-billion $ existence on their product. Especially Dell, who is probably looking for any chance to take Apple out of the picture.

well of course, but with pc's getting cheaper and cheaper, i dont think users are going to adopt pricey touchscreens very readily. For this feature to be "big" its going to have to be on almost ALL pc's, and thats just not gonna happen until prices drop substantially

[BongoBanger]

yes, but this is essentially the "defining" difference (why else would they demo it) between 7 and vista. and frankly not even the microsoft fanboys are all that impressed (take a hop over to engadget or giz). Sure there will be a few more tweaks and differences, but 7 is built upon vista.


Well no, it's just a taster. Since they didn't really show anything else about W7 how can we say it's the defining experience?

It's cool and no doubt Apple will follow suit.

[NT1440]

Interesting point of view...considering Windows is by far the highest selling and most used operating system in the world.

Also, what is with this Microsoft bashing from everyone? Yeh yeh, it's not smooth, but that's beta software for you. At least MS is trying. Who knows what input devices we'll be using in five years time and MS may have even worked out really good ergonomics for such a device by then.

I'm glad to see such a large company pushing this technology as they are in the best position to influence the market. Also, like a few people have said, if Apple had demoed this, everyone would be singing them praise.

Sometimes I feel embarrassed to use a Mac...
um, not me, touchscreen to me is completely useless on a desktop AND laptop to me, trackpad is alright, but i dont feel the need to keep touching my screen. Even if Apple had released it i personally wouldnt like it that much, but at least theres a very good OS behind it, with 7, uh, not so much (vista)

Well no, it's just a taster. Since they didn't really show anything else about W7 how can we say it's the defining experience?

It's cool and no doubt Apple will follow suit.

when people do demos, they usually show off some of the best theyve got...

[John Dillinger]

I'm sure Apple is on their radar and they are aware of the media and consumer perceptions and that they have their own opinions/feelings about that, but what I think is weird is when my fellow Mac users on these forums talk about how MS is timing any of their product releases or announcements in relation to some bit of rumored minutiae at WWDC. I'm willing to bet that most execs at MS, including Gates and Ballmer, are only peripherally aware of WWDC and are completely unaware of any rumored announcements that may occur there.


Im sure they have small teams dedicated to finding out exactly what the competitor is doing. It would be stupid not to. You think Steve or Bill Gates dont care about having honours of releasing x technology first?? Theyre Tech companies. And theyre CEO who are sure to have Massive Ego's. Theres a small matter of pride and esteem at stake. These are basic human traits and trust, they care and would prefer to be out first. Which company (or person for that matter) would be content to be trailing and not leading? Certainly not leading companies like Apple or Microsoft.

[BongoBanger]

when people do demos, they usually show off some of the best theyve got...

Well usually some cool stuff. The more interesting stuff will be how W7 functions.

I think they did this to steal a march on Apple and it worked.

[NT1440]

Well usually some cool stuff. The more interesting stuff will be how W7 functions.

I think they did this to steal a march on Apple and it worked.

well lets just hope that they got their act together this time...for their sake

(written on a toshiba laptop running vista, whos taskbar literally crashes EVERYTIME i go to click on a different program, requires a restart of explorer)

god i cant wait till i have the money for a (hopefully redesigned) macbook:apple:

[infowarfare]

Interesting point of view...considering Windows is by far the highest selling and most used operating system in the world.


And for a time Brittany Spears and the Backstreet Boys were the biggest selling and most heard music acts in the world, but that doesn't mean they were better or more talented than everyone else. :rolleyes:

Not be to rude, but don't you think that Microsoft would have a large degree of leverage over the PC manufactures, who essentially base their entire multi-billion $ existence on their product. Especially Dell, who is probably looking for any chance to take Apple out of the picture.

Very good point. I guess that's one thing we all have to realize, it's not that Microsoft Windows is so bad in and of itself, its that they have to play to the lowest common denominator which is all the various PC Brands and their particular configurations.

When Microsoft does do it right, it's when they take a hint from the Apple playbook, i.e. when they make their own hardware like the Surface, the Xbox and the Zune. Though the latter 2 have their faults, still it shows what happens when Microsoft controls both the hardware and the software, but it's not their normal business model unfortunately.

[Syrus28]

And for a time Brittany Spears and the Backstreet Boys were the biggest selling and most heard music acts in the world, but that doesn't mean they were better or more talented than everyone else. :rolleyes:
Their success would lead me to believe they did something right, which I believe is what bikemoney is referring to when G58 stated Microsoft never got anything right.

[hiimamac]

It would be nice, but would never happen. Microsoft gets sued for including Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player already, anything else would be suicide.


True. I know Apple has the best OS right now, just not fond of some of their business practices - I mean really, if the macbook (and this is just one example) can never play games and you can get motion to work, why rape the system for the small 1% of Pro users? What's the point? All in all, why not make it so a macbook and mini can play games and let them sell them in the millions. I just don't get it at all. From a business stand point, the loss of PRO's buying cheaper machines to run motion, FCP, would be hugely offset by the number of college kids saying wow, this is one fast machine (gaming) and would intro more people into gaming and editing. I think its a matter of when not if.

Now on to Microsoft, I read about the new OS before Vista came out and 7 will probably be what Vista should have been with bells and whistles and some competition is good. Imagine if someone wrote some code to run mac programs on a PC without the OS for example? And users got iLife?

On the other hand, you are stuck scratching your head sometimes wondering why with the billions can't Microsoft come out with something decent. I mean, hello, Zune? Time for them to step away from the copyright (same goes for mac) and make the machines more for the consumer.

I worked in the music business and saw the hit coming along time before it actually happened when I was one of the few with high speed. I predict that once we have pipe light speed in everyone's house, the networks will take a hit as will cable and satellite providers. You can already watch premium sports on the net anyway. Imagine once light speed is everywhere, all the shows that will be produced. Now add that satellite will provide net/phone access anywhere - editors will be in demand as will composers, shows will be in the thousands online and in your hand. I think Macbook Pro's 4 core with 4/8/16 core blocks to add to the machine (dock) will be the future (same for pc) and the desktop will disappear. Most laptops will be replaced by phones and small tablets. Would also like to see a paper size flexible screen that you can load documents onto and flip to read and store 100+ pages on it so you can read articles, and more. I think that will happen sooner rathe than later.

[Erwin-Br]

I think the whole touch screen thing will work best on a tablet PC. Holding my arms in the air is not quite convenient, so I don't think I would use this on a normal laptop or workstation.

I wish people would stop with the copycat complaining. It's embarrassing, because the technology has been around since the eighties. As a matter of fact, the first Microsoft demonstration was shown long before anyone even heard about the iPhone. :rolleyes:

--Erwin

[twoodcc]

why am i not surprised? man, it's not that i love apple and hate microsoft, but i sure seem to really dislike this ballmer

[hiimamac]

This is exactly as I see it working out.

I can't even reach the screen on my 24" iMac from where I am sitting. A multi-touch screen / keypad to replace the keyboard and mouse would work, at least with desktop computers.

Look in Junes imac issue - - can't remember the persons name but he has been selling a keyboard that actually changes to whatever program you are using like a skin, then the article went on to say APPLE has a patient (new) for Apple Touch Keyboard, so if you load photoshop, all the keyboard short cuts are there, same for games. This will probably happen within next few years - problem is, many need the feel of tactile, so they will have to deal with that as a keyboard simply like a large iphone won't cut it.

[DMann]

Would also like to see a paper size flexible screen that you can load documents onto and flip to read and store 100+ pages on it so you can read articles, and more. I think that will happen sooner rathe than later.

OLED prototypes are already out - paper sized flexible screen you can literally roll up - brighter and crisper than LED.


It's cool and no doubt Apple will follow suit.

Follow suit? Already been in progress.

[Syrus28]

OLED prototypes are already out - paper sized flexible screen you can literally roll up - brighter and crisper than LED.
Yep. Here's one Sony just showed off. [engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/28/sony-unveils-0-3-inch-thick-oled-display/#comments)]

Follow suit? Already been in progress.
Truthfully, what source of progress do we have for any type of a Mac tablet other than rabid speculation?

[CIrawI3riCIge]

That's kind of funny because in reality glass or some other more expensive type of screen needed to do multi-touch will keep companies from selling more computers. That or raise the price.

And by the time M$ ships Windows 7 Mac OS XI will be out and have the same multi-touch type interface.

This is more of a hardware thing than any software.

ymmv :)

IIRC, Bill Gates said there is a push for Windows 7 to ship in late 2009. M$ being sticklers for punctuality, we know they will not let the date slip.

W7 is architecturally the same as Vista; it just incorporates a face lift and some new features. Prior to Vista's poorer than expected sales, Windows 7 was a planned revolutionary shift to drop legacy support and simplify the platform. It has since been dumbed down and cobbled together to be quickly thrown out the door.

I was hoping a paradigm shift would increase competition between Windows and OSX (tech wise). That would almost certainly mean good things for us. Now it seems OSX (or OSXI) won't be challenged until Windows X, sometime in 2525.

[G58]

But thanks to the fact that we live in a nominally free society, we both have the right to hold our own, opposing views on this.

Mine, as someone who lost family in the camps, is that it's a question of perspective and tolerance. Specifically, if we tolerate one level of lie, we are naturally predisposed to tolerate varying levels of lies on a sliding scale.

If, as a society, we were more vocal and less tolerant of lies, there would be a genuine culture that seeks the truth, instead of versions that have been spun, and the liars wouldn't be in charge.

So you see my point was more than valid, it was central to who we are. We are either seekers of truth and decency, or tolerators of lies and deception. Sadly, we are all the latter, right up to the point where we recognise the mistakes and misdeed of the past, stand up and say: "No More!"

But while we have a debate about what is and is not an acceptable analogy, we do at least have hope. But denying that there is a link is irresponsible.

Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer are the most senior personnel in the most powerful company in the world. They both regularly lie. We tolerate it. Our governments allow torture and rendition and start illegal wars on the basis of lies. We tolerate it.

When they sold me an operating system that was crap, I said nothing. When they sold me a car that killed my family, I said nothing. When they sold me a war, I said nothing. When they came for my neighbour - he didn't look like me, so I did nothing. When they for me, there was no-one left to speak.

No animals or real humans were injured in the making of this illustration.


Just for the record, the Nazi commander who had that particular gate installed--Hoss, I believe his name was--was a former POW during the Weimar years who, by all accounts, really believed that manual labor helped him build character and survive his internment.

As a majority of the people locked up and/or murdered at Auschwitz didn't understand written German--most were from eastern and central European countries--most historians have concluded that the 'arbeit macht frei' gate, like those found at multiple concentration camps, were there to subliminally reassure the workers more than the prisoners.

Even if it was appropriate to include a computer company with questionable motives/practices/marketing strategies in an anology with death camps--which it isn't--the comparison doesn't make any sense.

[BongoBanger]

Godwin's law. The sure sign of a bad argument.

[DMann]

Truthfully, what source of progress do we have for any type of a Mac tablet other than rabid speculation?

The iPhone, iPod Touch, Multi-Touch Pad - these were the first things introduced on the roadmap of 'Touch' technology by Apple.

[Syrus28]

When they sold me an operating system that was crap, I said nothing. When they sold me a car that killed my family, I said nothing. When they sold me a war, I said nothing. When they came for my neighbour - he didn't look like me, so I did nothing. When they for me, there was no-one left to speak.

No animals or real humans were injured in the making of this illustration.
Do you seriously believe a company that sells Office applications, a computer operating system, a mp3 player, and a gaming console is comparable to starting illegal wars, torturing, genuine culture that seeks the truth, or anything to do with Nazis and camps? Something is seriously wrong with you...

[Analog Kid]

Ok, I gave up trying to read everything before I post, so forgive me if I'm repeating...

Does anyone else think the reason everything is done with two hands, rather than finger and thumb, is because they can't reliably track a finger and thumb? That's part of what makes the demo look so awkward-- two fingers stabbing at the screen. That, and using a laptop that looks like it's about to tip over backwards.

I really think MS made a mistake in showing this. It's obviously a me-too demo that would have been better kept under wraps until they had it streamlined. I think they wanted to preempt WWDC, which ironically, probably will not introduce multitouch throughout the OS and just sets up the Apple PR team with an opportunity to discuss how MS has done a great job of demonstrating why a multitouch display is such a bad idea.

When OS X does include it, I expect it to be along the lines of inkwell. Absolutely fantastic for certain applications, but a sideshow for the rest of us. There will be no point in making extensive use of this until the MB display can fold over backwards- and even then, everything will require an alternate (non touch) input method.

Plus, I fail to see the benefit of multi-touch in Microsoft's example; they started with a typical organized computer screen and turned it into a jumbled mess. :confused:
That was my first thought too-- it's the desktop equivalent of finger painting. That demo is appalling.
all stemming from the famous landmark decision made by a court after a particularly public lawsuit by a consumer who developed whiplash from using this type of display in 2015.
Just had to add that the lawsuit you describe will almost certainly be leveled against Apple. I don't understand why, but they're a magnet for this kind of thing.
I can see multi touch becoming very useful.. just not with the standard setup we use today.

People have this perception that a screen must be perpendicular to a surface.
There's a good reason my screen must be perpendicular to my desk-- there's no room for it flat. As much as I wish I could get away without it, I still need paper and books. I don't think that will change anytime soon, and I just can't clear out a 20" diagonal space for a display.

I think the hardware for this should come from the likes of Cintiq-- give me a flat LCD tablet that I can use as a peripheral if my work has a use for it.

[DMann]

Do you seriously believe a company that sells Office applications, a computer operating system, a mp3 player, and a gaming console is comparable to starting illegal wars, torturing, genuine culture that seeks the truth, or anything to do with Nazis and camps? Something is seriously wrong with you...

Think again,

Concerns about disturbing symbolic messages using the WingDings, and then using the same three keys in Webdings, which Microsoft believed it had assuaged nearly a decade ago, had resurfaced in the wake of terrorist attacks on New York.

Using MS Webdings font 72 pt, Type N-Y-C
Change to Wingdings font 72 Pt - N-Y-C

Odds of this being a coincidence are less than one in 1 trillion. They still haven't fixed this, by the way.................

[Syrus28]

Think again,

Concerns about disturbing symbolic messages using the WingDings, and then using the same three keys in Webdings, which Microsoft believed it had assuaged nearly a decade ago, had resurfaced in the wake of terrorist attacks on New York.

Using MS Webdings font 72 pt, Type N-Y-C
Change to Wingdings font 72 Pt - N-Y-C

Odds pf this being a coincidence are less than one in 1 trillion.
Yes, Microsoft is the epitome of evil and is now behind 9/11 attacks. What are you getting at?



Is logic completely lost on you altogether?

The very fact that you're prepared to argue against a point that I haven't made suggests it is.

Go back and read what I wrote again and think before you post please.

Well then may I ask you to clarify. You used a common analogy of the Holocaust "When they came for me..." including Microsoft selling you a OS, as the first "step" in them "coming for you". Next was killing your family by selling you a car. This is laughable, and no matter how you try to justify it, it was plain stupid and shows how childish you disdain for Microsoft is.

[DMann]

Yes, Microsoft is the epitome of evil and is now behind 9/11 attacks. What are you getting at?

Behind the attacks? I doubt it, but wouldn't rule it out. If this is the work of an employee, shame on him/her. What is questionable is why MS hasn't, in nearly seven years, corrected this disgraceful atrocity? MS has been associated with anti-semitism for quite some time, and this is only one small tidbit.

[elcid]

I think it is funny how Microsoft reveals this and so many people complain about how useless it is and how no one cares.

Yet go to some other threads, before the Air came out for sure, and everyone is talking about a tablet and multi-touch on their laptops.


Hah.

[fagosu]

What if Apple made something like this? this has a large multitouch surface that can be used with your fingers OR a stylus for when you need greater precision, a virtual keyboard that appears at the bottom of the screen kind of like the dock when set to autohide, and you will be seating and working in a natural way.

What do you guys think?
~fagosu

[DMann]

I think it is funny how Microsoft reveals this and so many people complain about how useless it is and how no one cares.

Yet go to some other threads, before the Air came out for sure, and everyone is talking about a tablet and multi-touch on their laptops.


Hah.

Big difference - MS involves blocking/touching the screen and getting arm fatigue while Apple's Multi-Touch pad allows you to do the same without smudging/blocking the screen and getting arm fatigue.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

i think jobs is more than aware that as it stands currently, touch as a MAIN feature for a computer is useless

What the heck is a "MAIN" feature? It would certainly be the major selling point to a tablet PC. Beyond that, can you say endless awful fingerprints? Oh wait, my iPod Touch has them all over the place.

[Syrus28]

Behind the attacks? I doubt it, but wouldn't rule it out. If this is the work of an employee, shame on him/her. What is questionable is why MS hasn't, in nearly seven years, corrected this disgraceful atrocity? MS has been associated with anti-semitism for quite some time, and this is only one small tidbit.
Actually, the font was made by font design firm Bigelow & Holmes, only to be purchased by Microsoft in 1990. Second, don't you think changing the symbols on a 18 year old font would cause problems? What would happen when people wanted to transfer their work into the newer version? You should read this... [Wired (http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2001/09/47042?currentPage=1)]

[Syrus28]

Big difference - MS involves blocking/touching the screen and getting arm fatigue while Apple's Multi-Touch pad allows you to do the same without smudging/blocking the screen and getting arm fatigue.
Yes, but what about the supposed progress of an Apple "tablet"? Obviously that would require touching the screen, would it not?

[notjustjay]

What do you guys think?
~fagosu

Very cool illustration, but the problem would be that if I'm to use the "desk" as any sort of work surface -- to put papers on, to read a book, to hold my coffee cup, to write with a pen and paper -- I would be very afraid of damaging the monitor surface, or at the very least wary of touches from my arms, elbows, pen, etc. being misinterpreted by the computer. Quick, look down at your desk -- I bet it's cluttered with stuff, just like mine. A screen like that would require us all to be ridiculously neat and tidy.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

and nothing of value was gained.......

does M$ really think that every computer is going to have multitouch screens when this gets released in 3, no 4, no 6 years?


I love when people do their seer seeing routine just to put Microsoft down. Yet when Steve Jobs announces full multi-touch for MacOSX in the future, those SAME people will go on and on about how awesome MacOSX is and how far ahead it is than stupid old Windows. Hypocrisy is rampant in the Mac "community".


its nice on a small device, but for an actual computer its pretty pointless,


I'm sure the same thing was said about the MOUSE the first time it was demonstrated. Oh how cute! But how is THAT going to be of any use on my (command line based) PC? Once again, 100% worthless technology that has NO place in computing!

Honestly, if you can't see the value of being able manipulate a graphical user interface DIRECTLY without needing a mouse, you don't deserve a graphical interface computer, IMO. Heck, I'm just waiting for a flight simulator where I can touch the actual cockpit controls on-screen without having to use a mouse which slows the interaction down by 3-5x what it would take to touch the switch directly. As larger and larger flat-screen monitors become cheaper and cheaper, the value of being able to say touch a dock icon instead of having to reach for the mouse and click it will become obvious. Being able to pick up say 2-5 dock icons and rearrange their positions by simply moving your fingers will magnify productivity for many operations.

Let's make it simpler. Imagine being forced to type with just 1 finger instead of 10!!! THAT is the comparison people will one day make to compare using a mouse to direct touch for many operations (Oops, I just gave M$ it's name to avoid being sued for calling it "multi-touch"). I can foresee holographic glasses overlay interface some day for compact computers whereby you manipulate your environment completely with your fingers in a virtual touch-screen environment. Or do you think someone would want to have to pull out a mouse from their pocket to move the pointer around in front of you? Put a tracking device onto a glasses clip on that tracks your fingers just like newer digital camera track faces and you're in business. Heads-Up Computing! Who gets there first is beside the point to me. I simply want easier/faster interfaces to get things done BETTER.


also did anyone see how buggy/not userfriendly the pictures rotate and expand?

It's an alpha stage demonstration and you're nit-picking? Where's Apple's demonstration for direct screen manipulation that you can pick M$'s apart?

[notjustjay]

Yes, but what about the supposed progress of an Apple "tablet"? Obviously that would require touching the screen, would it not?

Well, first of all, a tablet is a special form-factor device. What goes into a tablet is not the same as what goes into a laptop or desktop PC and monitor. So you can do special things with a tablet (such as touch all over the screen) and get away with it even though doing those same things would be a bad idea on other form factors. When you buy a tablet, you know what to expect going in. You hold a tablet in your hand, so there's no issue with distance there.

We don't even know, at this point, that an Apple tablet is actually happening.

I can't see multi-touch happening on current form-factor laptop screens or vertical-orientation desktop monitors. Try it -- go ahead, put your arm up and pretend to touch your big 20" monitor from where you're sitting right now. Keep that up for a few minutes as you pretend to surf or organize your photos. Arms getting tired yet?

[Dmac77]

All this tells me, is that Ballmer has his head stuck up his fat ass. If Gates was smart he would put a shock collar on his gorilla, and train it.

[CIrawI3riCIge]

Behind the attacks? I doubt it, but wouldn't rule it out. If this is the work of an employee, shame on him/her. What is questionable is why MS hasn't, in nearly seven years, corrected this disgraceful atrocity? MS has been associated with anti-semitism for quite some time, and this is only one small tidbit.

1. M$ demos Windows 7 features
2. People go insane

[Syrus28]

1. M$ demos Windows 7 features
2. People go insane

3. People associate anti-semitism and possible terrorists attacks to Microsoft, along with comparisons to drug dealers, death camps, illegal wars, and such.

4. Apple demos future touch-enabled Mac OS X features

5. World cheers.

Apple really has something here...

[fagosu]

Very cool illustration, but the problem would be that if I'm to use the "desk" as any sort of work surface -- to put papers on, to read a book, to hold my coffee cup, to write with a pen and paper -- I would be very afraid of damaging the monitor surface, or at the very least wary of touches from my arms, elbows, pen, etc. being misinterpreted by the computer. Quick, look down at your desk -- I bet it's cluttered with stuff, just like mine. A screen like that would require us all to be ridiculously neat and tidy.

Well, that's why it has holders on the side(s), you can put your pens and coffee there, and the surface will be smart enough to recognize when you touch it with your fingers or stylus and when you rest your arms or elbows in it. Also, picture charging/syncing your iPod/iPhone just by putting them on the desk, and on a productivity note imagine tracing your sketches in photoshop in this thing! :cool:

[DMann]

don't you think changing the symbols on a 18 year old font would cause problems? What would happen when people wanted to transfer their work into the newer version? You should read this... [Wired (http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2001/09/47042?currentPage=1)]

Read that........... As if MS would care about one or two characters needing editing when users transfer work - this is a lame excuse - swapping the Star of David for the triangle would eliminate the problem, and would only be a minimal editing inconvenience to anyone who needs to transfer work. Besides, by Microsoft admitting that they did consider altering the Wingdings font in the early 1990s, after concerns over the perceived anti-Semitic message first surfaced, they were aware of this and most certainly would have crossed referenced when creating Webdings.


Yes, but what about the supposed progress of an Apple "tablet"? Obviously that would require touching the screen, would it not?

For all we know, a tablet too may have a track pad area to do the touching upon.

[Syrus28]

Read that........... As if MS would care about one or two characters needing editing when users transfer work - this is a lame excuse - swapping the Star of David for the triangle would eliminate the problem, and would only be a minimal editing inconvenience to anyone who needs to transfer work. Besides, by Microsoft admitting that they did consider altering the Wingdings font in the early 1990s, after concerns over the perceived anti-Semitic message first surfaced, they were aware of this and most certainly would have crossed referenced when creating Webdings.
Obviously it did not generate enough concern for Microsoft to put in the effort to change it. Whether is was or not is not up for debate, as it still exists, and this is the 1st time I've ever head about it.


For all we know, a tablet too may have a track pad area to do the touching upon.
How would it type?

Including a keyboard, a trackpad and a non-touch sensitive screen does not constitute a tablet, my friend. Its called a laptop.

[Chairman Plow]

>We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

Got to love this guy. Windows 7... To be released soon. :D

Er... did Bill pull him to the side afterwards and whisper "dude, we don't actually sell PCs"?

[DMann]

Obviously it did not generate enough concern for Microsoft to put in the effort to change it. Whether is was or not is not up for debate, as it still exists, and this is the 1st time I've ever head about it. Yes, this is obvious.


How would it type?

Including a keyboard, a trackpad and a non-touch sensitive screen does not constitute a tablet, my friend. Its called a laptop.

No, I said, 'track pad area' - a small area designated for multi-touch functionality. This would most likely be optional, as the tablet itself would have full multi-touch capabilities. They keyboard would be virtual, and, no, it would not have the form factor of a current laptop.

[kmarty009]

If it was Apple, everyone would say it was the greatest, most revolutionary development since the Macintosh...

Including me ;-)

Funny how it has 229 negatives and only 96 postives... If Apple was releasing a preview of this, then those stats would be reversed. However, I was lucky enough to actually see a demo of there touch panel (Microsoft's). I am giving them props, it was really nice.... Even if it was based on Vista at that time. Honestly, I think Microsoft is going to beat Apple at getting this to the market first. Not often do I say Microsoft has something impressive, but this certainly was!

[ErikCLDR]

There's a lot in Windows 7, and our goal's got to be, with our hardware partners, to produce fantastic PCs. ... We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

And then Steve Ballmer screamed in excitement....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc&feature=related

[Syrus28]

No, I said, 'track pad area' - a small area designated for multi-touch functionality. This would most likely be optional, as the tablet itself would have full multi-touch capabilities. They keyboard would be virtual, and, no, it would not have the form factor of a current laptop.
Ok, I'm confused...:confused:

I think it is funny how Microsoft reveals this and so many people complain about how useless it is and how no one cares.

Yet go to some other threads, before the Air came out for sure, and everyone is talking about a tablet and multi-touch on their laptops.

Hah.
Big difference - MS involves blocking/touching the screen and getting arm fatigue while Apple's Multi-Touch pad allows you to do the same without smudging/blocking the screen and getting arm fatigue.
Yes, but what about the supposed progress of an Apple "tablet"? Obviously that would require touching the screen, would it not?
No, I said, 'track pad area' - a small area designated for multi-touch functionality. This would most likely be optional, as the tablet itself would have full multi-touch capabilities. They keyboard would be virtual, and, no, it would not have the form factor of a current laptop.
So, your saying it will have full touchscreen capability , which involves touching/blocking the screen -- Just like Microsoft's demo.

[PeterC-7]

"We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m." Steve Ballmer

Reality distortion zone: MS doesn't sell PC's. It sells software and the MS software certainly doesn't sell them. Quote should read: "We'll sell zero PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m."

[Syrus28]

"We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m." Steve Ballmer

Reality distortion zone: MS doesn't sell PC's. It sells software and the MS software certainly doesn't sell them. Quote should read: "We'll sell zero PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m."
Well to be fair, his wording was a bit off. However, the computer wouldn't be of much use without Windows on it... People are buying the computer with the anticipation (either good or bad) of running Windows. That, essentially, is selling it.

[DMann]

So, your saying it will have full touchscreen capability , which involves touching/blocking the screen -- Just like Microsoft's demo.

No, because a tablet can be set down on a table or lap, minimizing the arm fatigue. By using the track pad area and touching the screen, only when necessary, this minimizes the blocking of the screen.

[Syrus28]

No, because a tablet can be set down on a table or lap, minimizing the arm fatigue. By using the track pad area and touching the screen, only when necessary, this minimizes the blocking of the screen.
Who is to say that the touch capabilities of Windows 7 wouldn't be on a tablet? This was, a demo after all.

I think we're looking at 2 different sides to this. Im looking at the software implementation at it, which I believe is what Microsoft seems to be showing off. The specialized hardware would come at a later point. Looking this way, what would be the difference between Microsoft's implementation and the supposed Apple implementation?

[DMann]

Who is to say that the touch capabilities of Windows 7 wouldn't be on a tablet? This was, a demo after all.

I think we're looking at 2 different sides to this. Im looking at the software implementation at it, which I believe is what Microsoft seems to be showing off. The specialized hardware would come at a later point. Looking this way, what would be the difference between Microsoft's implementation and the supposed Apple implementation?

Implementation is the key difference here. By Apple implementing Multi-Touch using a Multi-Touch pad, they have eliminated the problems of fatigue and visual interference on a larger laptop screen. By implementing Multi-Touch on a small hand held device, such as an iPhone of iPod touch, using Capacitive touch technology (instead of the laggier Resistive touch used in HTC Win Mobile phones) these Capacitive devices are highly responsive, and easy to operate. Microsoft's implementation of this tech in 'Surface' leaves much to be desired. By the time MS releases Windows 7, Capacitive touch screen technology will have evolved to the next level, where contact with the screen will be rendered unnecessary as the electronic field of the hand in close proximity will exhibit enough capacitance to control items on the screen. Windows, however, is planning to utilize resistive touch technology for their upcoming projects.

[inkswamp]

Im sure they have small teams dedicated to finding out exactly what the competitor is doing. It would be stupid not to.

That's not what I'm saying.

You think Steve or Bill Gates dont care about having honours of releasing x technology first?? Theyre Tech companies. And theyre CEO who are sure to have Massive Ego's. Theres a small matter of pride and esteem at stake. These are basic human traits and trust, they care and would prefer to be out first. Which company (or person for that matter) would be content to be trailing and not leading? Certainly not leading companies like Apple or Microsoft.

Again, that's not what I'm saying. What I said is that I really doubt Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer are aware of any rumored product releases at WWDC. I doubt if they care. There very well may be people within MS tasked with keeping track of that kind of thing, but I have serious doubts that information like that makes its way that far up the ladder.

[Syrus28]

Implementation is the key difference here. By Apple implementing Multi-Touch using a Multi-Touch pad, they have eliminated the problems of fatigue and visual interference on a larger laptop screen. By implementing Multi-Touch on a small hand held device, such as an iPhone of iPod touch, using Capacitive touch technology (instead of the laggier Resistive touch used in HTC Win Mobile phones) these Capacitive devices are highly responsive, and easy to operate. Microsoft's implementation of this tech in 'Surface' leaves much to be desired. By the time MS releases Windows 7, Capacitive touch screen technology will have evolved to the next level, where contact with the screen will be rendered unnecessary as the electronic field of the hand in close proximity will exhibit enough capacitance to control items on the screen. Windows, however, is planning to utilize resistive touch technology for their upcoming projects.
You must have a crystal ball or something... ;)

[goosnarrggh]

By implementing Multi-Touch on a small hand held device, such as an iPhone of iPod touch, using Capacitive touch technology (instead of the laggier Resistive touch used in HTC Win Mobile phones) these Capacitive devices are highly responsive, and easy to operate.

Got a reference for that? I'd very much like to see evidence that the lagginess in Microsoft's demo is directly attributable to the physical process by which the gestures are converted from physical motions to electrical impulses, and not due to the much more likely possibility of inefficient computational algorithms being used to react to the gestures.

As far as this issue goes, having worked on an in-house software application which uses touch screens for about a year now, I can attest that in switching between various types of COTS (commercial, off-the-shelf) physical transducers for the touch screen (resistive, capacitive, surface accoustive wave, and most recently infrared) the only thing that had to change in most cases was was the kernal driver. All the application software remained identical.

And with the exception of the infrared screen, the application software's responsiveness was virtually identical in every case. The infrared screen we tried had very poor response to dragging gestures; we didn't sample any similar offerings, so I don't know if it was ultimately a problem with infrared transducers in general, or just with this particular type. The resistive touch screen was rejected because of problems with haziness in the transducer film interfering with image quality. The capacitive touch screen was rejected because it became totally useless in the presence of high-power RF fields which are typical for our application.

[Neuro]

Adding to my quick post earlier - I can see widespread use of multi-touch displays as a huge new area for health & safety court cases. If people are getting time off work for mouse RSI, imagine how much worse it could be!

All that prolonged leaning forward to a touch monitor and even bending to a table device.

Multi-touch = bad back + arm strain

[DMann]

Got a reference for that? I'd very much like to see evidence that the lagginess in Microsoft's demo is directly attributable to the physical process by which the gestures are converted from physical motions to electrical impulses, and not due to the much more likely possibility of inefficient computational algorithms being used to react to the gestures.


Very likely the cause, I do agree, thank you.

[Chris Stroud]

I think you guys are crazy. Apple definitely has their foot in the door with multi-touch and they have most of the research done towards providing a tablet. They just need to wait for the MacBook Air to settle down a little. It wouldn't make sense to release the worlds thinest Laptop, then release the worlds most feelable one right on top of it lol.

[Analog Kid]

Little known fact, but the Nazi V2s ran an embedded version of Linux. This knowledge was withheld from Hitler who insisted that all equipment run on a preproduction version of WinCE.

Huh? What? Are we back on topic now? Oh cool...

Got a reference for that? I'd very much like to see evidence that the lagginess in Microsoft's demo is directly attributable to the physical process by which the gestures are converted from physical motions to electrical impulses, and not due to the much more likely possibility of inefficient computational algorithms being used to react to the gestures.

As far as this issue goes, having worked on an in-house software application which uses touch screens for about a year now, I can attest that in switching between various types of COTS (commercial, off-the-shelf) physical transducers for the touch screen (resistive, capacitive, surface accoustive wave, and most recently infrared) the only thing that had to change in most cases was was the kernal driver. All the application software remained identical.

And with the exception of the infrared screen, the application software's responsiveness was virtually identical in every case. The infrared screen we tried had very poor response to dragging gestures; we didn't sample any similar offerings, so I don't know if it was ultimately a problem with infrared transducers in general, or just with this particular type. The resistive touch screen was rejected because of problems with haziness in the transducer film interfering with image quality. The capacitive touch screen was rejected because it became totally useless in the presence of high-power RF fields which are typical for our application.
If I had to guess, infrared lagged because of the thermal capacity of whatever the finger was touching. Just a guess...

There would certainly need to be more than driver changes to go from the single touch to multitouch type devices, no? I thought resistive/capacitive could only handle one point of contact.

[DMann]

I think you guys are crazy. Apple definitely has their foot in the door with multi-touch and they have most of the research done towards providing a tablet. They just need to wait for the MacBook Air to settle down a little. It wouldn't make sense to release the worlds thinest Laptop, then release the worlds most feelable one right on top of it lol.

True, but the market for thin laptops would not likely be cannibalized by the introduction of a tablet. Doing so would likely attract new sectors into the market, such as medical lab workers, hospital workers, photographers, and any object/image oriented professionals who need direct input and image manipulation.

[Analog Kid]

True, but the market for thin laptops would not likely be cannibalized by the introduction of a tablet. Doing so would likely attract new sectors into the market, such as medical lab workers, hospital workers, photographers, and any object/image oriented professionals who need direct input and image manipulation.
It would cannibalize the Air most of all. Yes, it might also bring in some verticals, but it would also give another thin-and-light option, now with touch. Photographers are the perfect example of people who would prefer a tablet but are probably settling for an Air right now.

[nrecob]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

And the people are supposed to wait till 2010 for THAT?

Anything short of Minority Report is a disappointment....

Sorry Windoze fanbois.....

[Chris Stroud]

True, but the market for thin laptops would not likely be cannibalized by the introduction of a tablet. Doing so would likely attract new sectors into the market, such as medical lab workers, hospital workers, photographers, and any object/image oriented professionals who need direct input and image manipulation.

Yes I think it would murder the Air. Intel put too much work into that custom processor for Apple to weaken that relationship by saying "oh well, this is better thanks anyway" If that makes any sense (it's getting late lol)

It would cannibalize the Air most of all. Yes, it might also bring in some verticals, but it would also give another thin-and-light option, now with touch. Photographers are the perfect example of people who would prefer a tablet but are probably settling for an Air right now.
Glad to see someone agrees with me :)

[DMann]

It would cannibalize the Air most of all. Yes, it might also bring in some verticals, but it would also give another thin-and-light option, now with touch. Photographers are the perfect example of people who would prefer a tablet but are probably settling for an Air right now.

Yes I think it would murder the Air. Intel put too much work into that custom processor for Apple to weaken that relationship by saying "oh well, this is better thanks anyway"

Excellent points, I do agree.

[AidenShaw]

Intel put too much work into that custom processor ...

HaHa.

It's a standard processor (actually, an older 65nm CPU) placed into a standard package being designed for a new piece of silicon.

The only work was the "custom soldering" to connect the old CPU to the pins on the new package.

Had Apple actually had Intel create a custom processor, the car analogies for the Mac Book Cube Air would be "costs as much as a BMW"!

Excellent points, I do agree.

How not surprising....

[NT1440]

HaHa.

It's a standard processor (actually, an older 65nm CPU) placed into a standard package being designed for a new piece of silicon.

The only work was the "custom soldering" to connect the old CPU to the pins on the new package.




How not surprising....
source?

unless they lied to us, the setup was supposed to be specifically designed with the air in mind

[AidenShaw]

source?

unless they lied to us, the setup was supposed to be specifically designed with the air in mind


How 'bout this - it's the first of 5,000,000 hits in Yahoo! for '"macbook air" intel cpu'....

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3203

The CPU in the MacBook Air is a 65nm Merom based Core 2 Duo, with a 4MB L2 cache, 800MHz FSB and runs at either 1.6GHz or 1.8GHz.

The packaging technology used for this CPU is what makes it unique; the CPU comes in a package that was originally reserved for mobile Penryn due out in the second half of 2008 with the Montevina SFF Centrino platform.

Intel accelerated the introduction of the packaging technology specifically for Apple it seems.

I think that's almost exactly what I said ;) ...

Apple also lowered the voltage and clock a little to reduce the TDP, but any overclocker knows that you can underclock as well.


unless they lied to us....

Surely you've learned by now never to believe *anything* that the Lord God Jobs says in a keynote?

[Analog Kid]

HaHa.

It's a standard processor (actually, an older 65nm CPU) placed into a standard package being designed for a new piece of silicon.

The only work was the "custom soldering" to connect the old CPU to the pins on the new package.

Had Apple actually had Intel create a custom processor, the car analogies for the Mac Book Cube Air would be "costs as much as a BMW"!

How not surprising....
If you're going to get all specific about what's a custom processor, and what is a custom package for an existing processor, you might want to be specific enough to use the term "custom bonding". Could be wrong, I suppose, but I don't think there's any solder in that package-- I suspect it's ultrasonically bonded from the pads to the lead frame or substrate.

Not sure what larger point you were trying to make though...

[AidenShaw]

If you're going to get all specific about what's a custom processor, and what is a custom package for an existing processor, you might want to be specific enough to use the term "custom bonding". Could be wrong, I suppose, but I don't think there's any solder in that package-- I suspect it's ultrasonically bonded from the pads to the lead frame or substrate.

I said 'The only work was the "custom soldering" to connect the old CPU to the pins on the new package.'.

I would think that the quotation marks around "custom soldering" should indicate to most people that I was not referring to traditional tin-lead soldering. What's your point, then?

Not sure what larger point you were trying to make though...

I was replying to:

Originally Posted by Chris Stroud
Intel put too much work into that custom processor ...

My point is that it wasn't "too much work".

Intel didn't make new silicon - it wasn't a custom CPU in that sense.

Intel took an existing (actually an older generation) silicon CPU and "soldered" it into a new package that they already had under development for a different chip.

[alandail]

I don't know if anyone really thinks differently here but I'm VERY careful not to touch my computer displays at all and clean them VERY carefully and thoroughly. As someone has said before, I don't want fingerprints on my screen.

Not even if Apple releases something similar (which I hope they don't in the near future, it's useless.) Can you imagine the strain on your arms, using multitouch on such a large surface in a crooked way?

#1 - The fingerprints thing hasn't been a problem, at all, for my iPhone. Do you think Apple forgot how to solve it?

#2 - Don't you think Apple would address the obvious issue of user strain before releasing something to the public?

I posted the rest of this on another forum, it applies here as well

some of the comments in this discussion sound a lot like the comments 24 years ago about the mouse. The mouse never replaced the keyboard, but it sure did a heck of a job supplementing it and making computers both easier to use and more functional. Touch/multitouch has the potential to advance user interface in much the same way.

Forget the MS demo, which was awful (I love how when the reporters weren't saying "works like like an iPhone", they asked about the new mac style dock) and instead just look at the Mac and the iPhone.

Both have cover flow - it's a heck of a lot easier to use coverflow on the iPhone than on the Mac - i.e. you don't need to hit a scroll bar with a mouse to start moving through the list, you just flip through with your finger. And after nearly a year of using an iPhone, I have yet to wish I could hook a mouse up to it.

Both have safari - one works with mouse and keyboard, the other works with multi-touch. Both UIs work quite well. And again, it would certainly be easier to scroll safari on the mac if you could just flip it with your finger instead of having to hit the scroll bar with the mouse to get started.

And just because the iPhone has a small screen doesn't at all mean multi-touch is only suited for a small screen. My #1 desired feature in a future iPhone would be a larger screen, which would make Safari, Mail, Maps, iPod, etc, all work even better.

Apple didn't do an iPhone first because they don't thing multi-touch would work on a desktop computer, they did it first because it was a huge untapped market where they could innovate and there was no legacy installed codebase to deal with during a transition period.

Just as MacOS X runs the iPhone, I'm sure Cocoa Touch runs on prototype macs in Apple's labs, and not just in an iPhone emulator.

[nrecob]

Microsoft doesn't sell any PC's, And by the time windoze 7 comes out, their hardware "partners" will be pre-installing XP service pack 5 on their systems.

lol.


You weren't throwing eggs at Ballmer last week were you? lol

[DMann]

How not surprising....

That a tablet can potentially hurt sales of the 'Air?'

If I believed that Intel put more effort into setting the processors into the Air then they did, well then, thanks for the clarification. However, your manic sarcasm is hardly warranted here.

[alandail]

Im glad you think Microsoft, the biggest tech company in existence, has never got anything right. How about Windows being the first major OS to add preemptive multitasking and memory protection

Ever heard of UNIX or the other mainframe/mini-computer OSes that predated Microsoft and had these features. Preemptive multitasking and memory protection were around for decades before Microsoft added it to windows. It's not some major innovation they came up with, it was an evolutionary addition to personal computer OSes as their hardware approached the power of the minicomputers and mainframes that came before them.

Also, MS wasn't first anyway, NeXT had these features before MS and the NeXT OS evolved into the current Macintosh.

[Syrus28]

Ever heard of UNIX or the other mainframe/mini-computer OSes that predated Microsoft and had these features. Preemptive multitasking and memory protection were around for decades before Microsoft added it to windows. It's not some major innovation they came up with, it was an evolutionary addition to personal computer OSes as their hardware approached the power of the minicomputers and mainframes that came before them.

Also, MS wasn't first anyway, NeXT had these features before MS and the NeXT OS evolved into the current Macintosh.

"being the first major OS..."

Either way, your late to the party. We settled this already.

[alandail]

"being the first major OS..."


Unix, VMS, OS/360 were all certainly major OSes that predated Microsoft's existence.

[Analog Kid]

I said 'The only work was the "custom soldering" to connect the old CPU to the pins on the new package.'.

I would think that the quotation marks around "custom soldering" should indicate to most people that I was not referring to traditional tin-lead soldering. What's your point, then?
My point is that if Intel really did custom soldering on these little devices, the car analogy would be that the Mac Book Air "costs as much as a BMW"!

The self contraction in your comments struck me as odd-- if you expect people to know that by "soldering" you meant ultrasonic bonding then you could expect the same level of indirection in substituting "packaged processor" for "processor".

I'm sure you know just as well as I do that when people talk about the "processor" they are just a likely to be talking about the component on the board as they are the sliver of silicon inside the package, but you came in full of 'haha' bluster to make a largely unnecessary technical clarification and fell short of actually being technically correct. I'm probably being presumptuous here, but your tone didn't suggest that putting quotation marks around "processor" would have spared Chris your derision.
I was replying to:

Originally Posted by Chris Stroud
Intel put too much work into that custom processor ...

My point is that it wasn't "too much work".

Intel didn't make new silicon - it wasn't a custom CPU in that sense.

Intel took an existing (actually an older generation) silicon CPU and "soldered" it into a new package that they already had under development for a different chip.
From Intel's point of view, that certainly is a lot of work. Intel gets its leverage from volume-- doing millions of identical parts. Running a small low volume line is an exception they made for Apple. The chip and the package are in production, but they're doing custom bonding, running custom device tests, and maintaining separate forcasting, inventory, product tracking, technical support and failure analysis.

I'm sure every customer would like some special consideration from Intel, but we don't see a whole lot of that which indicates that it's enough work for Intel to at least discourage if not outright refuse to do it in most cases. I'm also sure that Apple had to make commitments to Intel in order to receive this special treatment and that there would be penalties for breaking those commitments.

All in all, I think it was a valid point.

[Analog Kid]

#1 - The fingerprints thing hasn't been a problem, at all, for my iPhone. Do you think Apple forgot how to solve it?

#2 - Don't you think Apple would address the obvious issue of user strain before releasing something to the public?

I posted the rest of this on another forum, it applies here as well

some of the comments in this discussion sound a lot like the comments 24 years ago about the mouse. The mouse never replaced the keyboard, but it sure did a heck of a job supplementing it and making computers both easier to use and more functional. Touch/multitouch has the potential to advance user interface in much the same way.

Forget the MS demo, which was awful (I love how when the reporters weren't saying "works like like an iPhone", they asked about the new mac style dock) and instead just look at the Mac and the iPhone.

Both have cover flow - it's a heck of a lot easier to use coverflow on the iPhone than on the Mac - i.e. you don't need to hit a scroll bar with a mouse to start moving through the list, you just flip through with your finger. And after nearly a year of using an iPhone, I have yet to wish I could hook a mouse up to it.

Both have safari - one works with mouse and keyboard, the other works with multi-touch. Both UIs work quite well. And again, it would certainly be easier to scroll safari on the mac if you could just flip it with your finger instead of having to hit the scroll bar with the mouse to get started.

And just because the iPhone has a small screen doesn't at all mean multi-touch is only suited for a small screen. My #1 desired feature in a future iPhone would be a larger screen, which would make Safari, Mail, Maps, iPod, etc, all work even better.

Apple didn't do an iPhone first because they don't thing multi-touch would work on a desktop computer, they did it first because it was a huge untapped market where they could innovate and there was no legacy installed codebase to deal with during a transition period.

Just as MacOS X runs the iPhone, I'm sure Cocoa Touch runs on prototype macs in Apple's labs, and not just in an iPhone emulator.
I do think multitouch has its place on the desktop (and probably quite literally, on the desktop) but its not going to supplant the keyboard and mouse until we get comfortable putting our displays low and in front of us.

If I remember Minority report correctly, he never touched the screens-- he used gestures from a distance to manipulate the display. For an upright screen at the distance I'm comfortable with, that would be much easier for me to work with if they can make it controllable.

To resurrect a point I made before we got into a debate about Microsoft's role in taking down the twin towers, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cocoa Touch in the full OS (and it would fit well with the apparent theme of the WWDC) but I would expect it to be a minor feature along the lines of Inkwell. Great for people who need it, and a novelty for everyone else.

[BongoBanger]

To clear things up:

Intel did develop the reduced size Merom on Apple's spec, however they are now cheerfully selling it to anyone else. Like all big corporations Intel value their key customers and Apple - although not in the same league in terms of sales volume as HP or Dell - are a key customer.

[Analog Kid]

To clear things up:

Intel did develop the reduced size Merom on Apple's spec, however they are now cheerfully selling it to anyone else. Like all big corporations Intel value their key customers and Apple - although not in the same league in terms of sales volume as HP or Dell - are a key customer.
Not surprising... Do you know if anyone else is buying it?

Apple is certainly a key customer-- Intel has coveted their business for at least a decade and probably since the beginning, and well beyond Apple's incremental revenue stream. I think they mostly didn't like that there was someone out there bucking the trend and proving you could get away with it.

I also think Intel likes Apple as a test market and early adopter. They can't play favorites among the Windows clones, but because Apple is different from the rest Intel can get away with making special arrangements. It doesn't come off as anti-competitive.

[GroundLoop]

But, won't mobile/tablet comps be a lot more powerful in a few years when/if multi-touch comes out?

That may be true, but that still doesn't get past how imprecise multi-touch is. It would irritate the heck out of me trying to work on a multi-touch computer for all of my tasks. My hands would always be in the way of what I was trying to manipulate.

I do not deny that the feature is coming, I just hope that I can turn it off.

Hickman

[AidenShaw]

That a tablet can potentially hurt sales of the 'Air?'

I'm always puzzled by the "please Apple, don't give us what we want - it might lower the sales of systems that aren't what we need" arguments.

Mini-tower, tablet, mini-mac, better graphics in the MacBook, ... Keep hearing that refrain.


Note that one of Apple's suppliers has quite a different opinion on the issue:

http://www.siliconvalley.com/news/ci_9405717?nclick_check=1

Otellini isn't concerned that low-power processors could "cannibalize," or steal, sales from Intel's high-end, high-margin products.

"If a higher-priced notebook isn't substantially better and doesn't offer more utility, shame on us," he said. "If there's cannibalization, I'd rather be the cannibal than someone else."

I don't consider cannibalization a bad thing - isn't it better to lose a MacBook Cube Air sale to an Apple subnotebook, rather than to Lenovo or Sony?

The MacBook Cube Air is really large - thin, but large. It's almost certain that some people compromise on the MacBook Cube Air, when they really want something smaller. It's also almost certain that some people buy small notebooks from other vendors, and don't buy from Apple. If Apple offered a subnotebook or tablet, they'd still sell to the former, and pick up new sales from the latter.

[johncarync]

Have you tried multi-touch on your own computer? I simulated multi-touch by just faking it (touching my screen and it does nothing) for one minute. The result? My arms got tired after 40 seconds. A second test of switching between fake typing and fake multi-touching showed me that it's a surprisingly cumbersome act to take your hands off the keyboard and move them up to the screen and back to the keyboard and back to the screen. I predict it will be a cool, eye-candy feature that people will try out for a few minutes and then go back to the keyboard--a lot like speech recognition.

My guess is that Microsoft will follow the "touch the monitor" approach and fail while Apple will follow a more natural and usable "keyboard doubles as a touchscreen" approach. I believe Apple has some patents for a keyboard where bumps can appear and disappear on the keyboard so it can be flat for a touchscreen and then have bumps in the right place to simulate keyboard keys.

[jwpoore]

i wonder how many BSOD's you'll get out of that thing. :rolleyes:

[kamm]

At the tech conference All things D, Microsoft gave a small preview of Windows 7 with... multi-touch support.

I can tell you one thing... if Microsoft beats Apple to the punch on this one, Jobs sure wont be happy!

Click for Link (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/microsoft-demonstrates-multi-touch.aspx)

yAWN. :rolleyes:

Ditch Vista, that could help, this is jus pure gimmicks, nobody would give a flying $%&* about it except some enthusiastic basement kids and the usual clueless IT press crowd.

[kamm]

Ever heard of UNIX or the other mainframe/mini-computer OSes that predated Microsoft and had these features. Preemptive multitasking and memory protection were around for decades before Microsoft added it to windows. It's not some major innovation they came up with, it was an evolutionary addition to personal computer OSes as their hardware approached the power of the minicomputers and mainframes that came before them.

Also, MS wasn't first anyway, NeXT had these features before MS and the NeXT OS evolved into the current Macintosh.

Let's forget NeXT, it was an utter crap. It has now less in common with Leopard than XP has with NT 3.5 BTW.

[Quillz]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

And the people are supposed to wait till 2010 for THAT?

Anything short of Minority Report is a disappointment....

Sorry Windoze fanbois.....
If you had any brain cells, surely you'd realize it was an EXTREMELY BASIC DEMO. If you were expecting Microsoft to somehow show off the entirety of Windows 7, then I don't really know what to say.

[Quillz]

i wonder how many BSOD's you'll get out of that thing. :rolleyes:
Probably not nearly as many kernel panics that I've gotten on Leopard.

[jwpoore]

Probably not nearly as many kernel panics that I've gotten on Leopard.

+1

Gotta say, i've had a few. Hope 10.5.3 has fixed them :)

[Syrus28]

Have you tried multi-touch on your own computer? I simulated multi-touch by just faking it (touching my screen and it does nothing) for one minute. The result? My arms got tired after 40 seconds. A second test of switching between fake typing and fake multi-touching showed me that it's a surprisingly cumbersome act to take your hands off the keyboard and move them up to the screen and back to the keyboard and back to the screen. I predict it will be a cool, eye-candy feature that people will try out for a few minutes and then go back to the keyboard--a lot like speech recognition.
Ok, I tried it. Going through normal routine, using my "finger to screen" instead of trackpad. Unless you are constantly holding your hand out, I don't see any problem of fatigue. Also, I don't see how its cumbersome. Its just as cumbersome as taking your hand off of the keyboard to get to the trackpad.

This is what I did:

1.) Try opening mail, looking at the new mail, and opening one, reading it and occasionally scrolling down.

2.) Open Safari, read through my homepage, open a new tab, switch to one of my favorites, read through that.

Now, don't expect for this to replace a keyboard, but for a replacement for the mouse, it works fine in my experience.

My guess is that Microsoft will follow the "touch the monitor" approach and fail while Apple will follow a more natural and usable "keyboard doubles as a touchscreen" approach. I believe Apple has some patents for a keyboard where bumps can appear and disappear on the keyboard so it can be flat for a touchscreen and then have bumps in the right place to simulate keyboard keys.
Very cool, but its just a patent. Companies file patents all the time with weird, advanced, and amazing methods of doing things -- Most don't make it to the real world.

[EgbertAttrick]

But people would be hailing it as the next great coming if this were a Mac.

I think that is because when Apple does it, Apple does it RIGHT. M$ can come up with all sorts of great ideas, but they can't seem to properly execute them, anymore.

[NT1440]

If you had any brain cells, surely you'd realize it was an EXTREMELY BASIC DEMO. If you were expecting Microsoft to somehow show off the entirety of Windows 7, then I don't really know what to say.
actually, judging from the video of moving/manipulating the photos, its about as polished as the surface was. That is a finished product (im talking about the surface) and frankly the touch response isnt terrible, but its far from great.

[Syrus28]

actually, judging from the video of moving/manipulating the photos, its about as polished as the surface was. That is a finished product (im talking about the surface) and frankly the touch response isnt terrible, but its far from great.
Realize these are 2 different projects. While the demo may have been derived from the Surface, both utilize 2 different technologies, and there is no reason why Windows 7's cant be further improved.

[Analog Kid]

If you had any brain cells, surely you'd realize it was an EXTREMELY BASIC DEMO. If you were expecting Microsoft to somehow show off the entirety of Windows 7, then I don't really know what to say.
I don't think anyone here expects Microsoft to know what technologies will be in Windows 7 until after June 9, at the earliest. What I did find strange is that the demo was as basic as it was-- I'm surprised they exposed the public to it.

The only explanation I can think of is that they felt the need to put something out there so they could claim they demonstrated desktop multitouch first. Other than that, it was completely uninspiring, even when compared to Surface.
Realize these are 2 different projects. While the demo may have been derived from the Surface, both utilize 2 different technologies, and there is no reason why Windows 7's cant be further improved.It's actually not the touch part that bothers me-- it's MS's take on it. Everything hanging at odd angles, jumping on top of each other, no real discipline. Is this the direction they plan to take it in?

Are they expecting that everyone is going to want to use two index fingers to stretch a picture? Is stab and wait the new right click?

For a technology demo, it just didn't fill me with excitement about the future. I didn't see anything I haven't seen before.

[Syrus28]

I don't think anyone here expects Microsoft to know what technologies will be in Windows 7 until after June 9, at the earliest. What I did find strange is that the demo was as basic as it was-- I'm surprised they exposed the public to it.
Apparentely this demo wasn't for you...

The only explanation I can think of is that they felt the need to put something out there so they could claim they demonstrated desktop multitouch first. Other than that, it was completely uninspiring, even when compared to Surface.
Yes, Microsoft is just so concerned about Apple and whether or not they get it out first that they strategically planned to reveal a multi-touch concept that they've been hinting at since 2005 and the inception of the Microsoft Surface... It had nothing to do with demoing new feature in their upcoming OS. :rolleyes:

It's actually not the touch part that bothers me-- it's MS's take on it. Everything hanging at odd angles, jumping on top of each other, no real discipline. Is this the direction they plan to take it in?
For a product that is not coming for another 18 months, your being awfully cynical. Its a concept, and nothing is set in stone, other than Windows 7 will have multi-touch capabilities.

Are they expecting that everyone is going to want to use two index fingers to stretch a picture? Is stab and wait the new right click?
They aren't expecting anything.
For a technology demo, it just didn't fill me with excitement about the future. I didn't see anything I haven't seen before.
They weren't exactly labeling the demo as "all new features" or "the next big revolution in computing", now were they? It seems to be you were expecting too much.

[DMann]

Yes, Microsoft is just so concerned about Apple and whether or not they get it out first that they strategically planned to reveal a multi-touch concept that they've been hinting at since 2005 and the inception of the Microsoft Surface... Actually, MS is quite impressed with Apple's ability to innovate, their implementation of their innovations in terms of OS, applications, design and software integration, hardware design, and their ability to actually produce a product and market it successfully. Why MS attempted to follow suit with, for example, the Zune is beyond comprehension - without the ability to innovate on a truly functional and useful level and actually follow through, billions of dollars of time, effort, and money seem to have been squandered. As far as 'Surface' is concerned, it is one great big table, but Jeff Han did much of the innovating there, and his version seems much more practical.

It had nothing to do with demoing new feature in their upcoming OS.

Absolutely correct, what we saw of Windows 7 was hardly a demo of Windows 7, since there is nothing significant enough yet developed on that front to show. For a single feature, this was merely a teaser, but hardly one to be considered highly practical. It was fun, however, listening to the interview steer toward more pertinent things, such as 'the good old days' when Bill was at Harvard...... Do bear in mind, that Longhorn's touted demo back in 2003 featured innovations i.e. simulation of jiggling paper across the screen, kaleidoscopic projections of multiple movie files in mirrored formats, and other features which had hinted at any level of practicality. However, it was a demo, though, and did suggest an eventual release.

For a product that is not coming for another 18 months, your being awfully cynical. Its a concept, and nothing is set in stone, other than Windows 7 will have multi-touch capabilities. Yes, it is safe to predict that Windows 7 will have multi-touch capabilities.

They aren't expecting anything. You're probably right.

They weren't exactly labeling the demo as "all new features" or "the next big revolution in computing", now were they? It seems to be you were expecting too much. True, let's cut 'em some slack - when they come up with another feature, I'm sure we'll be hearing about it.

[Syrus28]

Actually, MS is quite impressed with Apple's ability to innovate, their implementation of their innovations in terms of OS, applications, design and software integration, hardware design, and their ability to actually produce a product and market it successfully. Why MS attempted to follow suit with, for example, the Zune is beyond comprehension - without the ability to innovate on a truly functional and useful level and actually follow through, billions of dollars of time, effort, and money seem to have been squandered. As far as 'Surface' is concerned, it is one great big table, but Jeff Han did much of the innovating there, and his version seems much more practical.
Actually, have you ever used a Zune? Talking about the Zune the way you did would suggest you haven't. May I direct you to [Cnet (http://reviews.cnet.com/portable-video-players-pvps/zune-second-generation-80gb/4505-6499_7-32638989.html?tag=prod.img.2)]

The general consensus (http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/11/12/zune.80.edging.ipod/) is that its a worthy iPod alternative and in some regards, better.

The Surface IS one big table. Its supposed to be used in public areas, involving more than 1 person. Nothing wrong with that...

[Analog Kid]

Apparentely this demo wasn't for you...
If not me, then who?
Yes, Microsoft is just so concerned about Apple and whether or not they get it out first that they strategically planned to reveal a multi-touch concept that they've been hinting at since 2005 and the inception of the Microsoft Surface... It had nothing to do with demoing new feature in their upcoming OS. :rolleyes:
Oh, right. It was meant for you...

Yes, you nailed exactly what I was trying to say, and backed it up with a fine example. That 2005 date when Surface was incepted? Milestone date. Now you have another you can store away for the next big argument over who-did-what-first.

You yourself are saying that what we saw isn't tied to the implementation that will be in Windows 7, and the videos for Surface were much more inspiring as far as thinking about where the technology could go, so what other reason can there be? They wanted to show it rolled into desktop Windows.
For a product that is not coming for another 18 months, your being awfully cynical. Its a concept, and nothing is set in stone, other than Windows 7 will have multi-touch capabilities.
I dunno, WinFS sounded pretty set in stone too... I'm not placing bets on touch.

Anyway, the whole point of a "concept demo" is to demonstrate a concept-- and they didn't. That was my point. This wasn't an engineering design review where they were showing that they have the plumbing in place to handle touch, this was a media demo for D-- a tech press orgy. What I saw, I wouldn't have exposed to the public. I would have rolled out a Surface table and demoed that, with the constant verbal point being made that we are moving this same technology into Windows 7. Surface=cool. Windows 7=Surface. Transitive property.

Instead, I just kind of got the felling that my computer is going to look like my desk.
They aren't expecting anything.
I think you're right and it quite compactly sums up their problem. No vision.

Multitouch is a checkbox item, not driving a concept in computing.
They weren't exactly labeling the demo as "all new features" or "the next big revolution in computing", now were they? It seems to be you were expecting too much.
I was expecting the largest software R&D operation on the planet to show me something new. I was expecting an idea of where the world was heading, or at least where MS thought it was.

[crusadernm]

What is this even doing on a mac forum site. This is only flamebait for Apple fanboys to froth over.

[SodiumBenzoate]

i thought Apple patented Multi-Touch?

They patented some specific gestures, and I think they copyrighted the term "multitouch".

Multi-touch in general (touch sensitivity to multiple points of contact) has existed for years (not necessarily in consumer products) and Apple was not the first company to develop a multitouch technology.

[DMann]

Actually, have you ever used a Zune? Talking about the Zune the way you did would suggest you haven't.

Actually, a client gave me a black Zune 4 as a gift. Worthy of an iPod alternative, Perhaps, but only if iPods were not in existence. I won't begin to vent/elaborate on the plethora of shortcomings, as the public has already spoken for themselves: Gamestop decided to discontinue sales of Microsoft Zune:

http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2008/05/23/gamestop-discontinue-sales-microsoft%2526%2523039%3Bs-zune

The Surface IS one big table. Its supposed to be used in public areas, involving more than 1 person. Nothing wrong with that... Public areas, yes, "cheers, I'll drink to that!! (CRASH)

What is this even doing on a mac forum site. This is only flamebait for Apple fanboys to froth over.

Try, MS's true exposure for what it is - a company which does not have the ability to innovate, despite it's vast monetary resources, implement, or even dream of concrete and useful things for the future. Let's face it, MS has indeed released much flamebait for the entire world to wonder about.

[Syrus28]

Actually, a client gave me a black Zune 4 as a gift. Worthy of an iPod alternative, Perhaps, but only if iPods were not in existence. I won't begin to vent/elaborate on the plethora of shortcomings, as the public has already spoken for themselves: Gamestop decided to discontinue sales of Microsoft Zune:

http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2008/05/23/gamestop-discontinue-sales-microsoft%2526%2523039%3Bs-zune

Wow. Your basing the Zune's shortcoming based on it sales in a video game store. Get Real

"GameStop also said that one of the factors that led to the decision of giving up Zune sales was the fact that it does not match the product types they are offering (video games and related hardware)." - Yahoo


Try, MS's true exposure for what it is - a company which does not have the ability to innovate, despite it's vast monetary resources, implement, or even dream of concrete and useful things for the future. Let's face it, MS has indeed released much flamebait for the entire world to wonder about.
No, actually, I think crusadermn nailed it. I mean, look at you...

[DMann]

Wow. Your basing the Zune's shortcoming based on it sales in a video game store. Get Real

I could write a 10 page article on why it is a problematic product with problematic software and menu navigation, but I'd much rather keep trying to find someone to swap a song with using the sharing feature - ooops only plays 2.5 times and then (poof)

I mean, look at you... I'm not the one who claimed the Zune would be an iPod killer, nor am I the one who claimed Vista would be a Leopard killer. (take a closer look at MS, I'm not even the messenger, just a passing observer)

[Syrus28]

I could write a 10 page article on why it is a problematic product with problematic software and menu navigation, but I'd much rather
keep trying to find someone to swap a song with using the sharing feature.
Please do... I'd like to hear your opinion.

I'm not the one who claimed the Zune would be an iPod killer, nor am I the one who claimed Vista would be a Leopard killer. (take a closer look at MS, I'm not even the messenger, just a passing observer)
Yes, Microsoft claimed the Zune would be an iPod killer... When? The zune was labeled an "iPod killer" only by the press.

And MS claiming Vista would "kill" Leopard, an OS that came out after it...The same Leopard that it surpassed, including all its predecessors, in 8 months... Really? That makes no sense!

[DMann]

Yes, Microsoft claimed the Zune would be an iPod killer... When? The zune was labeled an "iPod killer" only by the press. If you say so - since when does Bill Gates represent the press?:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/digital-music/microsofts-zune-is-no-ipod-killer/2006/11/15/1163266598981.html

And MS claiming Vista would "kill" an operating system that came out after it, the same one that surpassed in total lifetime sales in 8 months... Really? That makes no sense! True, but they said it anyway. Surpassed Leopard by default only. I wouldn't be overly proud of Vista's percentage of satisfied customers though:

[nrecob]

Probably not nearly as many kernel panics that I've gotten on Leopard.
I guess I'm lucky--I've had none.....

[bretm]

I guess I'm lucky--I've had none.....

Yep, zero here. Can't remember the last time I saw a kernel panic on OSX of any flavor. Years and years ago.

[bretm]

If you say so - since when does Bill Gates represent the press?:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/digital-music/microsofts-zune-is-no-ipod-killer/2006/11/15/1163266598981.html

True, but they said it anyway. Surpassed Leopard by default only. I wouldn't be overly proud of Vista's percentage of satisfied customers though:

Still no mention of MS being quoted as calling the Zune as an iPod killer. The only thing even close is Ballmer saying we can beat them, but it's not going to be easy.

The iPod killer thing is, as previously noted, a quote invented by the press as their interpretation of MS saying they could beat Apple. And they still might. Who knows.

There is still the very good argument that Apple is traveling down EXACTLY the same path that nearly killed them the first time around. They have created a better and more expensive product mainly because it's a closed system. As the competition (MS) comes out with viable alternatives that are more open and more lucrative to developers to create for, then they will create for whatever is easier and more profitable.

And hardware is another issue. Take Apple's success to the extreme... Apple gains a 80 percent market share! Yay? Well, that would mean they are a thousand times closer to a monopoly than MS. MS pretty much has the OS, but hundreds of manufacturers make the computers. If Apple had won the OS war, then they would have the near monopoly AND they wouldn't allow anyone to be making the hardware either if they didn't license the OS. That is the true big brother scenario. The marketplace will never let that happen.

[Syrus28]

If you say so - since when does Bill Gates represent the press?:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/digital-music/microsofts-zune-is-no-ipod-killer/2006/11/15/1163266598981.html
Did you read that yourself? There's not even a quote from Bill Gates in there... However, Ballmer did say
"We can beat them, but it's not going to be easy," Now how you translate into that being an iPod killer, I don't know... Maybe your hate for Microsoft has blinded you.

True, but they said it anyway. Surpassed Leopard by default only. I wouldn't be overly proud of Vista's percentage of satisfied customers though:
Where/When did they call Vista a "Leopard Killer"? Please, do show.
As for satisfaction, it would be interesting to get some results from SP1. Even Ballmer notes Vista is a "work in progress"

[Remoth]

I really dont like this multi-touch screen. changing from moving a mouse a couple inches at a time to moving both your hands anywhere from an inch to however big your screen is can be very annoying. If you work in 3D media like I do, this idea is very unpractical. while it would be cool to try out. I find it useless. you need to be very accurate when doing photoshop/3d work and a finger half an inch thick will never be as accurate as a mouse pointer with a 1-pixel thick tip. I can sorta see putting stylus-tips on your fingers, but that still brings up the fatigue issue. Try waving your arms around for 2 hours straight, let alone 10 minutes without feeling a bit tired. You cant move your arms for 10 seconds in front of your screen and say that was a decent test of fatigue. THat's like running for 10 seconds and not being tired so you think you can do it forever.

It wouldn't matter to me if apple or MSFT made it, it wouldn't be worth it. all it would be is annoying...plus you have to clean your screen...yuck how many people hate it when people touch your screen?? Most of you? so why would you want to spend your whole time putting your greasy fingers on your screen? The last part is expenses. THe Computer that would be able to do this would be much more costly than normal. I just cant see very many people investing into a computer like this.

[Syrus28]

I really dont like this multi-touch screen. changing from moving a mouse a couple inches at a time to moving both your hands anywhere from an inch to however big your screen is can be very annoying. If you work in 3D media like I do, this idea is very unpractical. while it would be cool to try out. I find it useless. you need to be very accurate when doing photoshop/3d work and a finger half an inch thick will never be as accurate as a mouse pointer with a 1-pixel thick tip. I can sorta see putting stylus-tips on your fingers, but that still brings up the fatigue issue. Try waving your arms around for 2 hours straight, let alone 10 minutes without feeling a bit tired. You cant move your arms for 10 seconds in front of your screen and say that was a decent test of fatigue. THat's like running for 10 seconds and not being tired so you think you can do it forever.

It wouldn't matter to me if apple or MSFT made it, it wouldn't be worth it. all it would be is annoying...plus you have to clean your screen...yuck how many people hate it when people touch your screen?? Most of you? so why would you want to spend your whole time putting your greasy fingers on your screen? The last part is expenses. THe Computer that would be able to do this would be much more costly than normal. I just cant see very many people investing into a computer like this.
The way I see it, I don't think multi-touch is intended to erase the need for a mouse and keyboard. However, In my test, I simulated a casual activity --reading email, or surfing the web, no doubt needs would be different for professional uses or word processing.

[Analog Kid]

No, actually, I think crusadermn nailed it. I mean, look at you...
I haven't seen your opinion on the demo, Syrus. You've done a bang up job of defending Microsoft's honor, but you haven't actually said much about the thread topic.

What's your take? Is the general dissatisfaction being registered here just off the wall flaming? Why? What does the demo show that's worthy of praise?

[AidenShaw]

What does the demo show that's worthy of praise?

...that the multi-touch metaphor is a core UI element for Windows 7, and therefore older applications will benefit, and new applications can really exploit it.

For example, when two-dimensional (up-down) scroll mouses were introduced, the support was in the core - scroll wheels worked in almost all applications, even the oldest.

[Cloudsurfer]

It sounds to my like Microsoft is just trying to be the first for once. After the success of the iPhone, it's pretty obvious Apple is going to introduce this to Mac OS in the future.

However, I think the Apple version of a desktop multi-touch interface will be far more inituive. In fact, I think the multi-touch in Windows 7 will just be an extra, something for people who happen to have a touch screen.

[tjmrpm04]

Did you read that yourself? There's not even a quote from Bill Gates in there... However, Ballmer did say
"We can beat them, but it's not going to be easy," Now how you translate into that being an iPod killer, I don't know... Maybe your hate for Microsoft has blinded you.


Where/When did they call Vista a "Leopard Killer"? Please, do show.
As for satisfaction, it would be interesting to get some results from SP1. Even Ballmer notes Vista is a "work in progress"


Is this soap opera on the same time every day?

[AidenShaw]

It sounds to my like Microsoft is just trying to be the first for once. After the success of the iPhone, it's pretty obvious Apple is going to introduce this to Mac OS in the future.

It's also pretty obvious that Microsoft's been working on multi-touch for years before the Iphone.


In fact, I think the multi-touch in Windows 7 will just be an extra, something for people who happen to have a touch screen.

And how does this differ from Apple? Will Apple be able to add multi-touch to the current alu Imac? (One difference is that Apple doesn't sell any touch screen computers, and there are quite a few tablets and a few desktops available already on the Windows side.)

They'll both introduce new MID and UMPC devices with multi-touch.


Is this soap opera on the same time every day?

It's 24x7 ;)

[alphaod]

My tablet computer has multitouch on it right now; I totally despise it; doesn't work as well as one would like, because you don't need it, if you're using it as a computer, and in tablet mode, it's a little big and weird to be doing gestures and risk dropping.

[Syrus28]

I haven't seen your opinion on the demo, Syrus. You've done a bang up job of defending Microsoft's honor, but you haven't actually said much about the thread topic.

What's your take? Is the general dissatisfaction being registered here just off the wall flaming? Why? What does the demo show that's worthy of praise?

Actually, just one post above yours
The way I see it, I don't think multi-touch is intended to erase the need for a mouse and keyboard. However, In my test, I simulated a casual activity --reading email, or surfing the web, no doubt needs would be different for professional uses or word processing.

And at the top of the page
Ok, I tried it. Going through normal routine, using my "finger to screen" instead of trackpad. Unless you are constantly holding your hand out, I don't see any problem of fatigue. Also, I don't see how its cumbersome. Its just as cumbersome as taking your hand off of the keyboard to get to the trackpad.

This is what I did:

1.) Try opening mail, looking at the new mail, and opening one, reading it and occasionally scrolling down.

2.) Open Safari, read through my homepage, open a new tab, switch to one of my favorites, read through that.

Now, don't expect for this to replace a keyboard, but for a [casual] replacement for the mouse, it works fine in my experience.

As I said before, I don't think Microsoft was showing off the entire package, just the software side of it. The hardware could [and should] come later.

[Analog Kid]

...that the multi-touch metaphor is a core UI element for Windows 7, and therefore older applications will benefit, and new applications can really exploit it.

For example, when two-dimensional (up-down) scroll mouses were introduced, the support was in the core - scroll wheels worked in almost all applications, even the oldest.
Are you seeing that in the demo, or somewhere else? The video seems to show custom views and applications accepting the touch input.

The scroll wheel gets tapped into the scroll bar control of most windows, right? Unless the scroll wheel event is handled uniquely by the application, the system treats it as a press on the scroll bar button. Have they talked about how they're going to integrate touch with the existing event loop?
Actually, just one post above yours

And at the top of the page

As I said before, I don't think Microsoft was showing off the entire package, just the software side of it. The hardware could [and should] come later.
Yeah, I saw those posts, but those are addressing what we already knew about touch. I agree it won't replace the keyboard and mouse, but I'm more concerned about the ergonomics of it given the way most people currently have their systems arranged.

What I was looking for though was your opinion of what Microsoft has just brought to the discussion.

[AidenShaw]

Are you seeing that in the demo, or somewhere else?

I've talked to the Microsoft developers, and seen the demo in person.

[AidenShaw]

Using MS Webdings font 72 pt, Type N-Y-C
Change to Wingdings font 72 Pt - N-Y-C

Odds of this being a coincidence are less than one in 1 trillion. They still haven't fixed this, by the way.................

Microsoft says that it's not a coincidence, so you are right.

They didn't "fix" Wingdings, because reassigning the codes for a font would not be compatible - existing documents would be changed.

For Webdings, they made sure that NYC wasn't the same, and someone with a sense of humor had the codes come out as "I love NY".

[psychofreak]

Big difference - MS involves blocking/touching the screen and getting arm fatigue while Apple's Multi-Touch pad allows you to do the same without smudging/blocking the screen and getting arm fatigue.

Windows 7 could work on any hardware shape, they just demoed it on a less-than-perfect form factor.

[stark2051]

I am a fan of the iPhone and all the fun technology that is in it. The Windows multi touch looks cool, if you say it doesn't you're a liar or a fan-boy. Apple was not the first to see/think that touch and multi-touch was a potential innovation. We've all seen the Microsoft Surface, all of this technology is in development. With Apple you don't get to see anything until it is done, most other manufacturers show us the works-in-progress.

I love my Mac. BUT, I hate it when I see people writing off other groups using similar innovations AND not even recognizing maybe some other kick-ass things happening in the industry. MS and Apple are not the only two companies in the world.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=he-j1BbZf58 --- watch and just try and tell me that anything MS or Apple has done is half as amazing.

OH and if you're up for some back story, check this page/videos (one year prior to iPhone announcement) --- http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/


k thx bai

[AidenShaw]

Originally Posted by DMann
Big difference - MS involves blocking/touching the screen and getting arm fatigue while Apple's Multi-Touch pad allows you to do the same without smudging/blocking the screen and getting arm fatigue

Windows 7 could work on any hardware shape, they just demoed it on a less-than-perfect form factor.

Note here - http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9950674-7.html?tag=bl

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20080522/IMG_4067_540x359.jpg

The screen is lowered and angled so that it is essentially the upper part of the keyboard.

People who think that a multi-touch screen would be mounted vertically on a stand are failing to think differently.

[psychofreak]

Note here - http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9950674-7.html?tag=bl

The screen is lowered and angled so that it is essentially the upper part of the keyboard.

People who think that a multi-touch screen would be mounted vertically on a stand are failing to think differently.

I still think that the iMac G4 form factor would be the best; I'd strain my neck looking at that slightly angled screen all day.

[Analog Kid]

I've talked to the Microsoft developers, and seen the demo in person.
Any idea how they're going to plug it into the existing UI? "Finger as Mouse" is obvious, and that already exists in just about all tablet UIs. How is an existing app going to benefit from the new technology? I'm having a hard time imagining how the new gestures can be mapped to existing events...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=he-j1BbZf58 --- watch and just try and tell me that anything MS or Apple has done is half as amazing.
What Apple has done with iPhone is half as amazing. What MS has shown in their Surface demo is at least half as amazing.

[AidenShaw]

"Finger as Mouse" is obvious, and that already exists in just about all tablet UIs....I'm having a hard time imagining how the new gestures can be mapped to existing events...

"Finger as mouse" is the only sure benefit. Some generalizations are possible ("scroll" can be the "hand" paradigm - moving the finger in the main frame can scroll the image or text, no need to only "finger as mouse" on the scroll bars.

Most of the bang would come from minor mods to existing apps. Google Earth, for example, uses the scroll wheel for "pinch" and "unpinch", and arrows and control arrows for navigation. Either add gestures as synonyms in the event loop, or modify the preferences for the app to add these as synonyms.

Actually, for Google Earth (and MS Streets and probably quite a few other apps), the scroll wheel is zoom in/out (unpinch/pinch) but there aren't any scroll bars. It would be easy for the system to present pinch/unpinch as scroll wheel events to existing apps if the app doesn't have scroll bars for the window in focus.

The engineer I talked to (the guy in the photo, BTW), is mostly excited by new apps on new hardware - what we'll see after this is mainstream for a few years. He's not interested in a "better UI for MSPAINT".

If you bought a new system for Vista, it was because your old one wasn't powerful enough. If you buy a new system for W7, it will be because you really want the multi-touch UI. (If you have a mini-tower, a new screen and graphics card may be enough.)

[G58]

Let's be realistic here. What Apple has done is miniaturise this technology and bring it to market in a very good, top selling product, and utilising it in place of a wand and a miniature keypad. Fact.

What MS has done is show for the second time, the same thing they demonstrated in a coffee table months ago. Both are lame and pointless. And importantly, it isn't available to buy, it isn't at all useful in a normal sized personal computer.

Those people having difficulty understanding this, really need to look at the facts and study basic ergonomics.


What Apple has done with iPhone is half as amazing. What MS has shown in their Surface demo is at least half as amazing.

[BongoBanger]

Let's be realistic here. What Apple has done is miniaturise this technology and bring it to market in a very good, top selling product, and utilising it in place of a wand and a miniature keypad. Fact.

What MS has done is show for the second time, the same thing they demonstrated in a coffee table months ago. Both are lame and pointless. And importantly, it isn't available to buy, it isn't at all useful in a normal sized personal computer.

Those people having difficulty understanding this, really need to look at the facts and study basic ergonomics.

So much argument, so little sense.

[G58]

So little argument, and absolutely no sense.

Every point I made was either a solid fact or a prediction based on real experience that we will probably have to wait years to discover is also equally correct.

It IS lame and pointless. In fact, it's an application looking for a use, but looking in the wrong place!

It isn't available to buy, and probably never should be. But if it is, M$ will lose BILLIONS on it.

It isn't at all useful in a normal sized personal computer.


So much argument, so little sense.

[deputylove8]

Relax dudes and dudettes. Let's all eat some Kit and Kat and chill and relax.....:D:D:D

[~NeonFire372~]

Erm... it seems a little sloppy to me. Don't get me wrong - I'm not an Apple fanboy. I'm using Windows Vista right now. I just don't think touch screen functionality is ideal for home and office use of computers. I like my keyboard and my mouse/touchpad.

[G58]

Your input is perhaps the most telling here.

When the computer buying/using world was still young and naive, the choices were limited and a smelly little geek could con an exclusive deal out of a huge multinational like IBM, stuff like this would have wowed the masses - and sold.

But now, at a time when the entire computer market and user base is largely well matured, the take-up of what is little more than a demo gimmick is bound to be small, for the simple reason that it isn't useful.

It isn't at all surprising that MS have latched onto this though. Their experience of trying to rip off Mac OS X has spawned a wave of disappointment, followed by an unnaturally hasty announcement of a replacement.

The Zune, MS's iPod rip-off has been an utter embarrassment, mainly because it was such an obvious rip-off and it was fat and ugly, had crap, restrictive features, lame user options and buggy GUI.

So they had to go for something else. Even the demo video, is designed to mimmic the beautiful simplicity of the Apple iPhone ads, but without the pro editing and the cute tune.

And why not? If something works, why not copy it? Well, for one thing, eventually, when you've pulled the same stunt so many times, there will be enough people in the world who have seen the original and they are going to spot the imitator, and reject it.

In a mature, intelligent world, the market rewards true innovation, not imitation. And in this case, the numbers will surely speak for themselves.

And whatever anyone's personal definition of a 'fanboy' is, it's insulting to suggest that being a fan of any product is in some way a suitable state for derision. Intelligent people do research, form intelligent opinions and make intelligent decisions based on those opinions.

Therefore, since all the evidence is that Apple are ahead in the innovation game [and by innovation I include the sensible and appropriate application of other people's ideas], being an Apple 'fanboy' is therefore a compliment. It's easy to pretend that the imitator is better, but only in the same way Hans Christian Andersen did in his fairy tale "The Emperor's New Clothes".


Erm... it seems a little sloppy to me. Don't get me wrong - I'm not an Apple fanboy. I'm using Windows Vista right now. I just don't think touch screen functionality is ideal for home and office use of computers. I like my keyboard and my mouse/touchpad.

[iphone.luke]

Come on guys if this was a mac with multi touch you would be saying this is the coolest thing in the world...


I love OS X but Apple hardware is what to expensive and out dated...

My Dell Vostro 1500 with GeForce 8600m GT 256mb, 4 GB Ram and 200gb hd, and 2.4 Ghz Core 2 Duo is as fast as a Macbook pro yet I only payed $1200 Shipped from Dell. The MacBook pro would be $2330 for the same thing...

Apples hardware sucks and is way to expensive...

[G58]

Yep, but no-one ever comes up to you and says: "Cool laptop. Is it a Mac?"

And why? Because it isn't. It's a... what do you call it? A Dell Vostro 1500? What the hell kind of a name is that? Sounds like a Communist era car built in Kazakhstan! It's vomit inducing in the extreme. And Dell wonder why they're in the ****? I just Googled the word - and it doesn't exist. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't even suggest anything you'd want to have anything to do with.

Okay, you might say, 'MacBook' isn't a word. And that's true. But 'MacBook' is onomatopoeic. It describes what it is. It's a book with Mac OS on it. Add 'Pro' to it, and guess what? - Yep, you've got the Pro version!! **** me!

It isn't rocket science. If you're happy telling people you've got a hefty, generic, fat, vomit machine made of boring black plastic, fine. Some people have taste.

And what does: "Apple hardware is what to expensive and out dated" mean?

Are you suggesting Apple hardware is WAY TOO expensive and out dated by any chance? Bollox. Apple are way ahead and about to update their Macbook and MacBook Pro range. Dell have only just caught up. And Apple make a profit.


Come on guys if this was a mac with multi touch you would be saying this is the coolest thing in the world...


I love OS X but Apple hardware is what to expensive and out dated...

My Dell Vostro 1500 with GeForce 8600m GT 256mb, 4 GB Ram and 200gb hd, and 2.4 Ghz Core 2 Duo is as fast as a Macbook pro yet I only payed $1200 Shipped from Dell. The MacBook pro would be $2330 for the same thing...

Apples hardware sucks and is way to expensive...

[DMann]

Did you read that yourself? There's not even a quote from Bill Gates in there... However, Ballmer did say
"We can beat them, but it's not going to be easy," Now how you translate into that being an iPod killer, I don't know... Maybe your hate for Microsoft has blinded you.

Bill Gates didn't have to, the headlines and stories do it for him. It may surprise you that it is not the media, but Microsoft's PR which generates and sends this stuff, i.e. "iPod Killer," to PR Newswire and the media. Bill Gates can then appear modest, while the headlines, generated by his own company, make the "iPod Killer" claims. And indeed, you are correct - Microsoft has blinded most everybody with their desperate and feeble business practices, paid to say reviews, shady product placement, and slippery sales reports (certainly you've heard Ballmer's claim during his Zune interview, that it took about 20-25% of the high end of the market) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

More about Ms's pitiful business practices: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Q4.06/D0BC712B-7DBA-46CA-AA44-19376E64FBA6.html

[BongoBanger]

As soon as anyone posts something from roughlydrafted.com they lose all credibility.

Seriously though, some of you guys need to relax the MS hate a little because you just come across as frothing mouthed lunatics. Sure, MS have some dodgy business practices but so does every large corporation.

And yes, that includes Apple.

Honestly, chill a little.

[AndyClarke]

Multi-touch seems a bit awkward on larger screens, but perhaps it will become second nature after some time. For now, I believe Apple is correct in separating the multi-touch surface from the screen.

Plus, I fail to see the benefit of multi-touch in Microsoft's example; they started with a typical organized computer screen and turned it into a jumbled mess. :confused:

Although I'll agree with others in saying that competition is always a good thing.

I agree. I can not be bothered with all the screen cleaning that would be required. Keep the touch pad seperate.

[Icepik]

I think it'll be cool if they keep it from screwing up and bugging out more than it works.

The tablet PC that HP launched was kind of on the lower end side. I am waiting for apple to release one and destroy it!

[G58]

I have a very simple rule. I never accept advice about anything from anyone I haven't checked out thoroughly.

And my analyst tells me I'm too laid back and need to be more assertive. So I'd ditch the psych career if I were you m8!

A fool attacks the things he doesn't understand. A wise man engages with everything and then discards what he does not need. In pointing out the gross drossness that is M$, we are rejecting what we don't need.

We are also actually educating you. If you haven't paid for your sessions, please see the girl at the door and give her your credit card.:apple::)


As soon as anyone posts something from roughlydrafted.com they lose all credibility.

Seriously though, some of you guys need to relax the MS hate a little because you just come across as frothing mouthed lunatics. Sure, MS have some dodgy business practices but so does every large corporation.

And yes, that includes Apple.

Honestly, chill a little.

[DMann]

As soon as anyone posts something from roughlydrafted.com they lose all credibility.(The pot now calls the kettle black)

Before you trash Daniel Eran Dilger, his website, and his many well researched articles, consider this: CNET, Fox News and ZDNet, are actual news sites; all of which have printed droves of stories, reviews, and articles with much less credibility, research, accuracy, and reliability than Dilger has. This article in particular: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Q4.06/D0BC712B-7DBA-46CA-AA44-19376E64FBA6.html very accurately reveals yet only a small sampling of MS's dodgy business practices you seem to both downplay and deem as unreliable. What makes your comment further perplexing is that you refer to "anyone" as "they" within the same sentence. Surely, you do not intend to be judging credibility here.

Sure, MS have some dodgy business practices but so does every large corporation. Not to the extent we have witnessed here.

[BongoBanger]

(The pot now calls the kettle black)

No, roughlydrafted.com is a joke. End of story.

As for MS being worse than other companies, a lesson in corporate history may sway your views somewhat. You can start with Walmart, Exxon and MacDonalds to begin with.

[DMann]

No, roughlydrafted.com is a joke. End of story. For a joke, he (Dilger) did a pretty decent job at summing things up at a more than cursory level, and insightfully so, to say the least.

As for MS being worse than other companies, a lesson in corporate history may sway your views somewhat. You can start with Walmart, Exxon and MacDonalds to begin with. (McDonald's)

Why not then go back further to the Rockefeller's and Standard Oil, our Beef and Cattle Industry, Coca-Cola, or our own US government? To clarify, MS single handedly holds the world record for global anti-trust lawsuits, and pending anti-trust lawsuits. Wikipedia carries an extensive entry dedicated to the criticism of MS's business practices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft which happens to be quite a bit more extensive than either Walmart's, McDonald's, or Exxon's.

[BongoBanger]

For a joke, he (Dilger) did a pretty decent job at summing things up at a more than cursory level, and insightfully so, to say the least.

LOLno. Seriously, he's a joke amongst virtually the entire tech community, the vast majority of journalists and even most Apple fans.

Why not then go back further to the Rockefeller's and Standard Oil, our Beef and Cattle Industry, Coca-Cola, or our own US government?

Sure, it serves the point equally well.

To clarify, MS single handedly holds the world record for global anti-trust lawsuits, and pending anti-trust lawsuits.

Yes... and...? Given that it's one of the world's biggest companies it's hardly surprising. Now, like I said, have a look at some of the other big companies and their legal records, how many of them are directly responsible for people actually dying and then come back and tell me MS are worse.

Wikipedia carries an extensive entry dedicated to the criticism of MS's business practices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft

Wiki carries criticicism articles for most major corporations, either separately or as part of the main article. Wiki also isn't exactly the best source for in depth review.

which happens to be quite a bit more extensive than either Walmart's, McDonald's, or Exxon's.

An open source encyclopaedia has a more extensive entry on a software company than oil and retail companies? Who'd have thought it!

I'm not going to continue this argument because I don't think you can see past your hatred of MS and look at things objectively.

[G58]

I can put this into some context for you guys. Many years ago I worked in intelligence, and recognise these tactics very clearly. Some can be traced to actual ops carried out by the usual suspects!

Such campaigns do work, but mostly in short bursts for short-term objectives, and then only on an unsophisticated audiences with poor communications and therefore poor access to independent, reliable information.

Discovering that the world's biggest company is employing these tactics is like reading the plot of a really bad 'B' movie. But when you study the leaders... Gates: "I wish I had Steve's taste", and EVERYTHING Ballmer does and says, coupled with the actual customer feedback, it's easy to recognise the desperation that lead to this situation.

If you want to be successful in technology in the 21st C, it's clear you first have to sew genuine seeds, with reliable products, in the 20th C, mainly because the audience today is both very sophisticated and has good communications and reliable access to accurate, verifiable information.

This isn't difficult to work out. But anyone who finds themselves in a situation where they've backed the wrong horse or team in any given situation, is bound to be very defensive. Backing MS ten or fifteen years ago was like past post betting. Backing MS today is letting the whole world know you really haven't thought about your choice.

There's tons of stuff that can be thrown into the mix to support these facts, and it's all there for anyone to find - if you're prepared to put in the hours and be objective. But this is my business now. I'm studying where the puck is going to be, and I'm doing it by watching the Wayne Gretzkys of several different games. If I share all my research, the field will be even more crowded!

Oh, and if you think the roughlydrafted article is flawed, why not research it thoroughly and come back with some evidence?


LOLno. Seriously, he's a joke amongst virtually the entire tech community, the vast majority of journalists and even most Apple fans.



Sure, it serves the point equally well.



Yes... and...? Given that it's one of the world's biggest companies it's hardly surprising. Now, like I said, have a look at some of the other big companies and their legal records, how many of them are directly responsible for people actually dying and then come back and tell me MS are worse.



Wiki carries criticicism articles for most major corporations, either separately or as part of the main article. Wiki also isn't exactly the best source for in depth review.



An open source encyclopaedia has a more extensive entry on a software company than oil and retail companies? Who'd have thought it!

I'm not going to continue this argument because I don't think you can see past your hatred of MS and look at things objectively.

[DMann]

LOLno. Seriously, he's a joke amongst virtually the entire tech community, the vast majority of journalists and even most Apple fans.

Well then, by your own standards, MS is a joke amongst a great majority of the tech community, (a large percentage of whom are at the same time indebted to MS for the countless hours of troubleshooting opportunities MS provides them) a vast majority of reputable journalists, and even most Apple fans. If there happens to be anything inaccurate about Dan's article, as stated above, please do elaborate.

Yes... and...? Given that it's one of the world's biggest companies it's hardly surprising. Now, like I said, have a look at some of the other big companies and their legal records, how many of them are directly responsible for people actually dying and then come back and tell me MS are worse.

And how pitiful that one of the world's biggest companies finds it necessary to resort to such petty, underhanded behavior, and products of substandard quality.


Wiki carries criticicism articles for most major corporations, either separately or as part of the main article. Wiki also isn't exactly the best source for in depth review.

True, however, had I posted 1/10th of the detailed articles related to the business called MS, It would have filled an entire page.

I'm not going to continue this argument because I don't think you can see past your hatred of MS and look at things objectively.

Actually, in a way, I admire MS for their quasi-valiant efforts. Their "Cashback Program" is bound to lure some novice consumers toward their Live search, the Microsoft Point System will eventually convince some that they're getting a better deal than they are, and MS's (Ballmer's) vehement denial that there ever was, or is, anything problematic with any of their products will eventually cause consumers to surrender, and accept things as is. "People are buying it, pirating it, and using it, therefore it doesn't suck....." Despite abysmal customer feedback, this has been Ballmer's perpetual motto of denial......He certainly does go out of his way to look at things objectively.

(even after SP1, Vista still uses waaaaaaay too much RAM when idle, USB file transfer chokes consistently, Audio Encoding, Media Encoding, Video Encoding; no improvement, file compression; minimal improvement, start-up time actually 1 second longer than retail version)

So, apparently, the 2010-2012 version of Windows will still not have the next-gen file system we heard about more than 10 years ago -- when "Cairo" was the lead codename -- let alone a microkernel with modules for OS "personalities" and compatibility.

And you're gonna fend off Google and cloud computing with a touch screen? Good luck. I do hope there's a skunkworks Plan B in the labs. No wonder buying Yahoo "isn't strategic."

[G58]

It's much worse than this.

When a company as bad as Yahoo [and Yahoo is abysmal], rejects a serious offer that inflates their worth beyond any they will ever see again, you have to ask why? Just being an abysmal company isn't good enough of a reason.

During the take-over fiasco, Yahoo was like the prisoner recently released after 30 years from a life sentence on compassionate grounds. Those grounds being that they were terminally ill. And as he stepped out onto the street, a $20,000 a night whore dew up in a diamond encrusted limo and offered him one last blow job... and he turned her down!

Why? How bad could a $20,000 a night whore, be that a condemned man would turn them down?

Answer: She looked and sounded like Ballmer!



And you're gonna fend off Google and cloud computing with a touch screen? Good luck. I do hope there's a skunkworks Plan B in the labs. No wonder buying Yahoo "isn't strategic."

[Syrus28]

BongoBanger, its not worth it... They can't be helped. Just leave them be. :D

[G58]

How much does Bill pay you guys to blog his lost cause?

No, really. I'd like to know.

It would have to one BIG *** to get me to push that rice pudding up hill, with the piece of wet rope he gives you in facts worth repeating in his defence.


BongoBanger, its not worth it... They can't be helped. Just leave them be. :D

[MagnusVonMagnum]

It's much worse than this.

When a company as bad as Yahoo [and Yahoo is abysmal], rejects a serious offer that inflates their worth beyond any they will ever see again, you have to ask why? Just being an abysmal company isn't good enough of a reason.


Like Icahn, you apparently don't care ONE BIT about the companies themselves, consumers or the employees of such companies. For once, I see a company that is NOT all about the almighty dollar and destroying people's lives so a few ultra-rich shareholders can make a quick 500 million or so while everyone else involved in the deal (namely the company and employees) get thrown to the wolves (namely Microsoft, one of the dirtiest companies on Earth that illegally pushes its way around like a schoolyard big bully).

Finally, the day has come where Microsoft has screwed up ROYALLY with its lackluster OS called Vista that is almost universally hated, they're falling leaps and bounds in the browser search market compared to Google and your so-called 'abysmal' company Yahoo. Frankly, if Yahoo is 'abysmal' then what does that make Microsoft considering its position in the same search market??? Less than abysmal? And yet you think Microsoft should acquire them so they can continue to charge at the market based on trying to rule market share to force out competition rather than compete WITH competition on the same grounds. Microsoft has NO ONE to blame but themselves for sucking so hard in the search business. Their own dirty tactics are coming back to haunt them. They clearly have the cash to expand their search engine capability, but no one wants to visit them! They figure the only way they can fix this is to muscle out the 2nd largest competitor and thereby make themselves (possibly in name disguise still using a more popular name like "Yahoo") bigger than they deserve to be. Their product failed on functionality and popularity so now it's time to leverage that money they've made off the backs of forcing out competition in the past to do it again in another market.

It's bad enough that Microsoft would be scum enough to try such tactics to begin with (the king of evil capitalism I suppose), but then you've got BILLIONAIRES that think they should be richer yet by selling out the lives and jobs of thousands of employees. Screw them all, I want to be richer! The sad thing is he can't even hide his sentiments. He's a spoiled little brat who whines and cries that Yahoo seeked to preserve itself as a company and competitor against someone that is doing far worse than them in that segment of the industry. He wants to replace management so he can sell the company out. That's not management. That's a bunch of stooges set up to ruin the company for a fast buck. I'm sure billionaire shareholders that buy stock like it's a gambling event and resell it as quickly as possible will LOVE that idea if they happen to own Yahoo stock they bought on speculation but didn't quite pan out for them, but it's no good for the company or its employees. Mergers always result in less competition, people getting canned and less choice for consumers.

I, like many others have Yahoo e-mail accounts. I do not have a M$ e-mail account for a very good reason. I hate the company, their dirty tactics and their complete disregard for privacy in favor of hacking their own OS to provide such information to them (take a closer look at Vista). If M$ somehow manages to acquire Yahoo, I will be closing that account (despite all the secondary companies I reference that account as an e-mail address to and the inconvenience of having to change them all) and go to Google. This will not help Yahoo or Microsoft. It will help their competitor, the leader, Google. People who don't like Microsoft will not like them under a new name either.

As for your views on multi-touch, you are clearly short-sighted and act like you know more than everyone on earth. I'm sure you really believe that. Your continued 'f-bomb' outbursts show how small your vocabulary is and the contempt you have for other people on here trying to discuss things in a civil manner. I will ignore your comments in the future. They do not merit replies.

[DMann]

BongoBanger, its not worth it... They can't be helped. Just leave them be. :D

Neither can MS:

http://thesmallwave.com/2008/06/06/microsoft-our-smartphones-have-already-accomplished-something-in-the-future/

from the small wave:

Microsoft: Our Smartphones Have Already Accomplished Something in the Future.

The letter Microsoft’s Andy Lees sent to their hardware, carrier, and software partners is comical on many levels, not the least of which is that why would you want to emphasize the fact that you’ve got nothing to say?

It really is kind of a stupid letter, but it follows the classic Microsoft argument (indeed, the only one they’ve ever had): When you got nothin’, toss around big numbers.

But in this case, the number doesn’t yet exist, which makes it all the more funny. Lees states:

"It’s now my honor and privilege to announce a milestone that our partnership has accomplished. This fiscal year we will sell nearly 20 million Windows Mobile smartphone licenses"

The second sentence cannot logically follow from the first. Microsoft has accomplished a milestone that will take place in the current fiscal year? How silly can you get? At the very least, Mr. Lees, say you’re on a pace to sell that many, or predict you will, or are on track to, etc. But don’t pronounce a milestone as “accomplished” (past tense) by stating it “will” (future tense) happen, ‘K? The letter is already silly enough, don’t make it worse.

Oops, he made it worse:

"You’ve [Handset Makers] delivered Windows Mobile phones with features like GPS, 3+ megapixel cameras, and voice activation — features that other operating systems have been slow to deliver."

Operating systems can deliver those features? Really? Now that’s some serious coding, and a level of expertise for which I would not have given Microsoft credit. How cool is it that an upgrade to your OS can add, say, GPS to your GPS-less phone. Wow. Those guys in Redmond must be really good.

The whole letter is nothing but an attempt at attention right before the iPhone 2.0 announcement. But why draw attention to yourself if you have nothing substantial to report?

[DMann]

How much does Bill pay you guys to blog his lost cause?

No, really. I'd like to know.

It would have to one BIG *** to get me to push that rice pudding up hill, with the piece of wet rope he gives you in facts worth repeating in his defence.

In all fairness, no profanities were ever directly written or spelled out in this post before the edit. As far as compensation goes, for anyones sake, let's hope Bill ain't offering stock options as he does for the rest o' his boys.

[DMann]

Fujitsu advertising "Last Chance to buy Windows XP." speaks volumes, for the underwhelming demand for Vista:

[JayMan8081]

I would say that Apple already wins this race since the iPhone runs a modified OS X and has multi-touch. Plus, by the time Windows 7 ships Apple may have added this tech to desktop OS X. But I agree that it's usefulness in the desktop marketplace is rather limited since most people do not have touchscreen monitors sitting on their desks.

[Quillz]

I would say that Apple already wins this race since the iPhone runs a modified OS X and has multi-touch. Plus, by the time Windows 7 ships Apple may have added this tech to desktop OS X. But I agree that it's usefulness in the desktop marketplace is rather limited since most people do not have touchscreen monitors sitting on their desks.
Windows 7 is supposed to be coming out in 2010. At the rate technology is expanding, who knows what desktops will look like three years from now. Touchscreens will slowly and surely become larger and more commonplace.