Windows Goes Multi-Touch

[Mykbibby]

At the tech conference All things D, Microsoft gave a small preview of Windows 7 with... multi-touch support.

I can tell you one thing... if Microsoft beats Apple to the punch on this one, Jobs sure wont be happy!

Click for Link (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/microsoft-demonstrates-multi-touch.aspx)

[darklyt]

I think Jobs already won since the iPhone runs OS X and has multitouch. Also, the Macbooks Air and Pro have multitouch trackpads, so OS X (the one on computers) definitely has some multitouch already. The difference is, no Mac has multitouch on the display yet.

[NT1440]

i think jobs is more than aware that as it stands currently, touch as a MAIN feature for a computer is useless

[sushi]

Watched the video.

Nothing earth shattering there.

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The next major version of Windows (currently dubbed 'Windows 7') was demoed briefly today at the All Things Digital conference (http://allthingsd.com/). Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer spoke (http://d6.allthingsd.com/20080527/gates_ballmer/) with Walt Mossberg and Kara Swisher and briefly demoed multi-touch Windows 7.

Microsoft has adapted the multi-touch technology of their Surface computer (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/05/30/microsoft-launches-multitouch-surface-computing/) into Windows.


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/05/27/windows-7-multi-touch-demoed-at-all-things-digital/)

[mmccaskill]

There's a lot in Windows 7, and our goal's got to be, with our hardware partners, to produce fantastic PCs. ... We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.
Except when 2010 rolls around if won't be ready, just like Vista. :rolleyes:

[NT1440]

and nothing of value was gained.......

does M$ really think that every computer is going to have multitouch screens when this gets released in 3, no 4, no 6 years?

its nice on a small device, but for an actual computer its pretty pointless, also did anyone see how buggy/not userfriendly the pictures rotate and expand?

[stefanski]

>We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

Got to love this guy. Windows 7... To be released soon. :D

[mduser63]

I'm glad to see this. If it's successful in Windows, Apple will certainly do the same sort of thing in Mac OS X. Of course Apple's implementation will undoubtedly be much better than Microsoft's. If it's a flop in Windows, I'd rather it be a flop for MS than for Apple. All that said, I think multitouch in general is pretty predictable at this point. The iPhone showed that it was very much viable, and it's pretty obviously the evolution path for UI design for next few years.

[richard.mac]

so they just demoed "Multi-Touch" in Windows 7 and not the "keyboard & mouse" desktop.

i thought Apple patented Multi-Touch?

[Lershac]

get the touch out in the tablets. Put out a touch tablet. If Apple doesnt do it and MS does, ugh. I want one of these. If it was available today for a reasonable premium (heck even unreasonable) I would have one.

[flopticalcube]

I don't want fingerprints on my screen.

[Lershac]

so they just demoed "Multi-Touch" in Windows 7 and not the "keyboard & mouse" desktop.

i thought Apple patented Multi-Touch?

They protected the method they devloped to implement it, not the whole idea of multi touch... that would be like patenting ... keyboards. or the stylus.

[CANEHDN]

Nothing we haven't already seen. Although that piano thing was kind of cool.

[hiimamac]

Except when 2010 rolls around if won't be ready, just like Vista. :rolleyes:

I don't know about that - as a Mac user, who like/had no choice at one time but to use XP, Vista was/still is horrible. But until Apple went INTC, MACS were by far a slow dog.

Anyway, the point is, I have heard and read MSFT has always been working on a OS seperate from Vista and have been for a while. The bottom line is, Vista=software developers and if Win 7 is more consumer like, they could have a hit on their hands and whoever wins will be the one who makes it work out of the box, angle, arm fatigue, et-cetera.

Can't really say anyone is stealing either.
Dock=not Apple but some Kobulator
Widgets=always around
Spotlght=search developed by MSFT but intro'd 1st by mac.

Google Sun's Microsystem's light house? Now there is a OS that works.
Who knows, for once MSFT might have a winner this time.

[bshelly]

Great! So my big fat hands can get in the way of looking at whats on the screen. What is the big amazing draw to using your hands to manipulate what is on the screen? If it's a coffee table, well fine! But not my laptop screen. There is nothing worse that smudges on an LCD screen.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[kdum8]

although it's not groundbreaking at least it gives an indication into the direction that pc's are heading. In a few years when all notebook screens are touch-capable you'll wonder why it never happened sooner. Apple are already heading down this route so it's only a matter of time.

Roll on the future...

[Lershac]

I don't want fingerprints on my screen.

They have a coating material now that helps with that. You can touch with PB&J and it comes right off.

Me I see it as a lap/living room computer. Its what I use a Macbook for now. Casual browsing (I do alot of that) and if they built a low-power mode (e-ink or similar) like on the OLPC xo-1 I would use it as a reader too. Make it say a hair smaller than a sheet of paper in footprint and Iphone-like in thickness (maybe a lil thicker) with a dock I can charge it in.

[Adokimus]

Woot!!! +1 for competition. I personally can't wait for my touchscreen MBP dual-booting OS X v.10.6 and Window's 7 via bootcamp. Now I just need to invest in some stock of "screen cleaner" companies...

[EricNau]

Multi-touch seems a bit awkward on larger screens, but perhaps it will become second nature after some time. For now, I believe Apple is correct in separating the multi-touch surface from the screen.

Plus, I fail to see the benefit of multi-touch in Microsoft's example; they started with a typical organized computer screen and turned it into a jumbled mess. :confused:

Although I'll agree with others in saying that competition is always a good thing.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Watched the video.

Nothing earth shattering there.

I agree. I'm going to sound so much like a fanboy here, but this is essentially all stuff Apple has been doing for a while now on the iPhone and with Multi-touch/widgets, et cetera. Look at the way the photos are all managed...you use a finger to drag it, you zoom in with an outward pinch, and you click the bottom right corner to see the back-side info:

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117521&stc=1&d=1211945574

Ah, wait, silly me, Microsoft made that...

Anyways, I'm not saying Surface isn't cool, and it's good to see Microsoft's trying to stay in the game, but first of all I don't think Microsoft is going to deliver this like previewed/promised, and second, I don't believe this is anything really innovative and new anymore. We'll see how it pans out.

[CWallace]

It makes sense for tablets and UMPCs, which Microsoft is pushing. I like the touchscreen on the Panasonic Toughbook, but that is because I hate trackpads. So it might see use in laptops. I don't see it on desktops, really.

[Animaniac]

The Microsoft implementation running on a full-fledged computer doesn't seem as responsive as the Apple implementation on the resource-strapped iPhone.

Also, I would be shocked if Jobs lets Microsoft steal his* user-interface yet again.

*Yes, I'm aware Jobs stole the ideas from Xerox PARC.

[queshy]

anyone know when/where the full video of the interview will/will be/is posted?

[Mykbibby]

I agree. I'm going to sound so much like a fanboy here, but this is essentially all stuff Apple has been doing for a while now on the iPhone and with Multi-touch/widgets, et cetera. Look at the way the photos are all managed...you use a finger to drag it, you zoom in with an outward pinch, and you click the bottom right corner to see the back-side info:

snip

Ah, wait, silly me, Microsoft made that...

Anyways, I'm not saying Surface isn't cool, and it's good to see Microsoft's trying to stay in the game, but first of all I don't think Microsoft is going to deliver this like previewed/promised, and second, I don't believe this is anything really innovative and new anymore. We'll see how it pans out.

If it was Apple, everyone would say it was the greatest, most revolutionary development since the Macintosh...

Including me ;-)

[dagamer34]

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple.

[ckurowic]

At the tech conference All things D, Microsoft gave a small preview of Windows 7 with... multi-touch support.

I can tell you one thing... if Microsoft beats Apple to the punch on this one, Jobs sure wont be happy!

Click for Link (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/microsoft-demonstrates-multi-touch.aspx)

Cut, Print, Ga...errr..."alternative lifestyle..."....yeah, this is pretty dumb. But lest we forget how many of us Mac enthusiasts were salivating over multi-touch on the Mac? This video just proves my point of how clunky and useless this "technology" is.

[Rocketman]

Let's disregard for a moment any real implementation will happen YEARS after the Apple implementation AND be inferior on release.

Let's disregard for a moment Microsoft is a "copy machine" with a scratched drum.

Let's disregard Microsoft has no "vision thing" overseeing the implementation of the technology.

That said.

Microsoft got its start marketing on an IBM text based OS that was forsaked by them and overtly copied by their EMPLOYEE Bill Gates. No conflict of interest there ?!!?

Rocketman

[Feng Shui]

when will microsoft stop copying?......

[arn]

anyone know when/where the full video of the interview will/will be/is posted?

It will probably appear eventually on http://allthingsd.com/

arn

[toxicbomber]

At the tech conference All things D, Microsoft gave a small preview of Windows 7 with... multi-touch support.

I can tell you one thing... if Microsoft beats Apple to the punch on this one, Jobs sure wont be happy!

Click for Link (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/microsoft-demonstrates-multi-touch.aspx)

WWDC should be intresting this year. They should already go ahead and give us a beta preview of some of the features. Just a sneak peek. I'm not going to give a good reason as of why. That's for you to figure out.

[chuckzee]

Microsoft doesn't sell any PC's, And by the time windoze 7 comes out, their hardware "partners" will be pre-installing XP service pack 5 on their systems.

[dashiel]

There's a lot in Windows 7, and our goal's got to be, with our hardware partners, to produce fantastic PCs. ... We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

uhm no you'll sell zero PCs next year. last time i checked you don't make PCs steve... maybe that's why microsoft is in such a rut. balmer doesn't realize what he's actually selling.

[futureswitcher]

i watched the entire video but didn't see a single useful feature.

[MacTheSpoon]

To my surprise, I was kind of underwhelmed by this demo.

I think it's going to take Apple to bring out the coolness of a multi-touch OS. Then MSFT will copy it in Windows 8.

[bdkennedy1]

The worlds richest man and his sweaty, gorilla pet demoed the future of Windows using Windows Paint - an application that has barely been updated since Windows 3.0, 17 years ago.

But at least... at the very least they were standing right there watching as they showed the world they just don't get it anymore.

[AidenShaw]

Microsoft shows off multitouch sensor prototype

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20080522/IMG_4067_540x359.jpg

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9950674-7.html


That screen is an off-the-shelf Samsung SyncMaster 305T (http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=computersperipherals&type=monitors&subtype=lcd&model_cd=LS30HUBCB/XAA) 30" LCD. Above the screen is an infrared webcam that tracks the fingers in real time (much image processing offloaded to the GPU).

Windows Vista is the OS.

[Superdrive]

Call me "traditional," but I would rather manipulate things with a few whips of the finger or mouse instead of using two hands not resting on a surface. Aside from applications on small surfaces (MBA/iPhone), I really think this multitouch is a gimmick (Surface/MultiTouch iMac).

[in/flux]

*takes cover hearing mac fanboy **** flying over his head*
This isn't going to be good.

[deputylove8]

Hahahaaa..Let's face it. Windows wants to be more Apple-ish.
1st it was Vista with the addition of their own version of widgets and making it supposedly for graphically asthetic.

In the end...its is a RAM and Power hungry machine that well..still hangs
and gets a flu from viruses ...hehehe

Now multitouch? Hehehe...I wonder what's next. But hey! It is still cool technology!

With both windows and apple entering the multi touch race. I bet this is good for consumers as both would wanna improve the tech more and keep prices attractive to seduce us consumers...

hehehehe...Go windows! Go Apple! :D:D

[queshy]

It will probably appear eventually on http://allthingsd.com/

arn

cool thanks! ill be on the lookout...its hard to believe an entire year almost has gone by since steve and bill were on allthings D. I remember it like it was yesterday, haha.
Howcome Gates gets more airtime than steve?

[Peace]

Microsoft doesn't sell any PC's, And by the time windoze 7 comes out, their hardware "partners" will be pre-installing XP service pack 5 on their systems.

That's kind of funny because in reality glass or some other more expensive type of screen needed to do multi-touch will keep companies from selling more computers. That or raise the price.

And by the time M$ ships Windows 7 Mac OS XI will be out and have the same multi-touch type interface.

This is more of a hardware thing than any software.

ymmv :)

[EagerDragon]

Well it looks like a big competition between Apple and M$. I imagine that Apple will continue to release earlier than M$ and perfect it in the process. But also perfect it into the mind of the consumers so they think the Apple methodology is better for them.

There are a lot of people out there that do not get it, just like they did not get the use of a mouse.

We have seen some of Apple practical applications they need to show more. That tablet must be coming soon.

[EgbertAttrick]

WWDC should be intresting this year. They should already go ahead and give us a beta preview of some of the features. Just a sneak peek. I'm not going to give a good reason as of why. That's for you to figure out.

So, you're saying Apple Touch Tablet at WWDC? Perhaps an unveiling immediately after "giving props" to M$ and their "great new direction"?

Sweet!

[AidenShaw]

i thought Apple patented Multi-Touch?

Also, I would be shocked if Jobs lets Microsoft steal his* user-interface yet again.

when will microsoft stop copying?......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch

"Multi-touch technology dates back to 1982, when the University of Toronto developed the first finger pressure multi-touch display.

The same year, Bell Labs and Murray Hill published what is believed to be the first paper discussing touch-screen based interfaces.

In 1984 Bell Labs engineered a touch screen that could manipulate images. The same year Microsoft began research in the area.

A significant breakthrough occurred in 1991, when Pierre Wellner published a paper on his multi-touch “Digital Desk”, which supported multi-finger and pinching motions."

25 years of multi-touch history, then the Iphone.



This is more of a hardware thing than any software.

Look back at post 37 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=5491539&postcount=37) to see a Microsoft invention that uses software, a webcam and a standard LCD screen to do multi-touch.

Also note that the demo was done on a standard Dell Latitude XT (http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_xt?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz) tablet - nothing special in the hardware.

[Michael CM1]

i think jobs is more than aware that as it stands currently, touch as a MAIN feature for a computer is useless

For a personal computer at home, probably. But when I last worked at Chick-fil-A in 2001, they had touch-screen cash registers that were new to me after working at a couple other locations of theirs. These new systems were just single touch, but they were MUCH MUCH MUCH better than having to recall where every darn button on the previous machine was. Just like the iPhone touch buttons are quite simple and explanatory (hit "end call" to end call, etc.), this software was similar back in the day. I know people not as geniusified as me work at fast food places then and now, so multitouch could have huge implications in businesses.

But as you said, it's not really that great as a main feature on your usual PC now. It's great for portables, but most desktop PC stuff needs keyboard/mouse input. I also spent too much time learning how to type 80 wpm on a physical keyboard to be convinced to type on a virtual one on a screen. Keyboards will probably stay physical for desktops, but they will probably get thinner and use OLEDs.

[ZiggyPastorius]

If it was Apple, everyone would say it was the greatest, most revolutionary development since the Macintosh...

Including me ;-)

Yes and no. Apple does a lot of cool stuff, and their implementations of Multi-touch are one of those things, but I don't go so far as to say they innovate everything, or everything they do is innovative. I try to be fair and give credit where credit is due, it's just most of the time Apple is ahead on these things...but if Microsoft does come up with something great, I will definitely applaude them, as I am not anti-Microsoft. I do hate Ballmer, though..

[toxicbomber]

So, you're saying Apple Touch Tablet at WWDC? Perhaps an unveiling immediately after "giving props" to M$ and their "great new direction"?

Sweet!

I do believe that MIGHT happen. It seems quite right. Talking about the iPhone and the tablet. They are VERY close related.

[slevit1]

There's a lot in Windows 7, and our goal's got to be, with our hardware partners, to produce fantastic PCs. ... We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.
Well this explains a lot...the CEO of Microsoft doesn't even know what the hell he's talking about. Microsoft will sell 270m copies of an operating system. Apple will sell 10m computers. There are an awful lot of assumptions here. First, the enormous (and surely flawed) assumption that Windows 7 will be completed in the next 5 years. Next, that the people who actually make the computers will integrate a multi-touch screen into their computers. Is it really an impressive feature of the operating system if only a small handful of people have access to it? I can't figure out why Microsoft always seems to just be so far off base.

[PhotoPhoenix]

you can't hate on Microsoft for making a cool product. anything touch is fun though, of course. i doubt microsoft will make a better user friendly product than apple though.

[MacFly123]

I really am not counting on Microsoft to implement Multi-Touch in a good way. Half the things they showed in that video were slower and less efficient that with a traditional mouse and keyboard. Not to mention it will almost for sure be delayed and very bugy when it comes out. Not to mention actual consistent compatibility with their countless hardware vendors to make it all come together and work lol.

Now Apple has already introduced Multi-Touch very successfully and has been training and easing people into it for over a year now. I definitely trust that Apple will implement it in a way that actually IS more efficient and sensible. They also will have a solid release and seamless integration with their hardware.

LOLOL it is seriously sad to think that people are already avoiding Vista and they will avoid Windows 7 just the same because it is an even more drastic change and unwanted adaptation for people. Think about it, we are literally going to be seeing people running Windows XP on their computers in the year 2010 and later LOLOLOL so sad...... so sad!

[G58]

And you like touching your screen?

Mine is already dirty enough without me putting my fingers all over it.

I'm ready to do 15 to life if anyone so much as thinks about touching my screen. It's a disgusting habit. It's for kids and retards. It really won't take off.

Trust me. This isn't one of those things we didn't know we wanted.


At the tech conference All things D, Microsoft gave a small preview of Windows 7 with... multi-touch support.

I can tell you one thing... if Microsoft beats Apple to the punch on this one, Jobs sure wont be happy!

Click for Link (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/microsoft-demonstrates-multi-touch.aspx)

[wirelessmac]

>We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

Got to love this guy. Windows 7... To be released soon. :D

Does MS sell PCs? I thought they sold software?

[junkmailbonzai]

I hate to repeat what has already been said but it is true, just not impressive!
:confused::eek::mad::eek::confused:
Good luck making much money with that M$.

[engles]

If it was Apple, everyone would say it was the greatest, most revolutionary development since the Macintosh...

Including me ;-)

Thats a stupid argument because Apple would be copying itself and implementing something that they have already created with the iphone. we all know that Apple will introduce a touch interface on its computers... the operating system for multi-touch is already available... OSX supports multi-touch. they just need to do the hardware end and create the applications that could really benefit from it.

[powderblue17]

Microsoft needs to wake up and realize that multi-touch is not suited for a desktop or laptop because the ergonomics just don't work. It's the same reason why the tablet has been a failure and why I don't think Apple will release one unless it's just a slightly bigger version of the iPhone that can still be held in one hand. Who is gonna work on a computer when their arms will need to be floating in the air all the time except for gadget geeks? The problem for Microsoft is that while multi-touch makes sense for Surface it's only a niche product while the iphone is a mass market product so they are trying to force multi-touch onto PC's where it doesn't belong. Apple realizes this and that's why they made a touchpad that can do multi-touch as the ergonomics of that implementation actually make sense.

[shakenmartini]

Multitouch screens are interesting, but its going no where for the average consumer/business owner.

What I am surprised MS is not doing is focusing on workflow. How can they tweak their OS to make business more productive? They completely ignore the subtle tweaks to their interface they could be making to make windows more productive for their huge market share in business.

On the other hand you see the roots of NeXT (efficient work flow) continually improved in Mac OS. Are spaces or Expose revolutionary features? No. However, Apple is continually looking at technologies out there that can be added to improve work flow. This is important not only to your home user, but to someone who has to get work done on a computer. The less time fiddling around, is time better spent on other tasks.

If you were at all involved in the Longhorn/Vista Beta process then you know how disappointing the result is. If this is Windows 7, then it seems to be following in the path of Longhorn. Lots of ephemeral focus on inconsequential features.

[AppleMojo]

Cut, Print, Ga...errr..."alternative lifestyle..."....yeah, this is pretty dumb. But lest we forget how many of us Mac enthusiasts were salivating over multi-touch on the Mac? This video just proves my point of how clunky and useless this "technology" is.

I agree totally. Last week I picked up a 20" Wacom Cintiq (Pen Display) and although it is wonderful to use with the pen, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to target and use OS / App features with my finger(s).

I imagine there are of course applications in which full screen or large scale multi-touch is welcomed, but for the standard PC/Mac user in your home or office, it just doesn't seem useful.

I am currently sitting about 3 1/2 feet from nose to screen in a comfortable position. I don't want to hunch over my desk to use standard OS features, like I do with the Cintiq in specific apps.

[GSV]

We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m

This is like Ballmer's comment from Jan. 07 when he said something like "we've sold millions and millions of phones, Apple has sold zero." It's kind of insulting to the OEMs if you think about it, he's taking credit for their sales.

[DMann]

The difference is, no Mac has multitouch on the display yet.

Thank god:

1) smudge-marks on matte surface (yuck)

2) Arm fatigue

3) Great for OS X Tablet (WWDC perhaps?)

OS X has already been demoed doing this - MS continues to lag behind.

and nothing of value was gained.......

does M$ really think that every computer is going to have multitouch screens when this gets released in 3, no 4, no 6 years?

its nice on a small device, but for an actual computer its pretty pointless, also did anyone see how buggy/not userfriendly the pictures rotate and expand?

Pure MS logic

They have a coating material now that helps with that. You can touch with PB&J and it comes right off.

Please, no additional layering, especially on a matte screen.

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple.

And Apple leads the way.

Let's disregard for a moment any real implementation will happen YEARS after the Apple implementation AND be inferior on release.

Let's disregard for a moment Microsoft is a "copy machine" with a scratched drum.

Let's disregard Microsoft has no "vision thing" overseeing the implementation of the technology.

That said.

Microsoft got its start marketing on an IBM text based OS that was forsaked by them and overtly copied by their EMPLOYEE Bill Gates. No conflict of interest there ?!!?

Rocketman

Bravo, well stated.

[G58]

Okay, let's just deal with why Apple deployed the multi touch screen, and why any manufacturer SHOULD BE doing it: to save space. Right?

On a handheld device this is logical, imperative even. But on a desktop or laptop? No. It's just stupid. And anyway, there are already devices out there for special purposes that have touch screens. Where they're needed, in shopping malls for instance, it's a great idea. But not on personal computers.

This is just dumb. No-one wants it. No-one needs it.


I'm glad to see this. If it's successful in Windows, Apple will certainly do the same sort of thing in Mac OS X. Of course Apple's implementation will undoubtedly be much better than Microsoft's. If it's a flop in Windows, I'd rather it be a flop for MS than for Apple. All that said, I think multitouch in general is pretty predictable at this point. The iPhone showed that it was very much viable, and it's pretty obviously the evolution path for UI design for next few years.

[G58]

Quite!

This is the company that has never innovated. Never got anything right. Why does anyone think that just because they pretend this is new, that people will buy it?

To be ahead of the game you have to be right. M$ have never been right.


although it's not groundbreaking at least it gives an indication into the direction that pc's are heading. In a few years when all notebook screens are touch-capable you'll wonder why it never happened sooner. Apple are already heading down this route so it's only a matter of time.

Roll on the future...

[DMann]

when will microsoft stop copying?......

This is their only option.

Multitouch screens are interesting, but its going no where for the average consumer/business owner.

What I am surprised MS is not doing is focusing on workflow. How can they tweak their OS to make business more productive? They completely ignore the subtle tweaks to their interface they could be making to make windows more productive for their huge market share in business. Lots of ephemeral focus on inconsequential features.

To focus on workflow would require innovation. I truly enjoyed the Longhorn demoes back in 2003 with paper jiggling on the screen, and vidoes being played in a kaleidoscopic formation - trivial to the extreme.

Good luck making much money with that M$.

If the hundreds of dollars MS loses with each Xbox they sell is any indication........

[shakenmartini]

Okay, let's just deal with why Apple deployed the multi touch screen, and why any manufacturer SHOULD BE doing it: to save space. Right?


The funny thing about this whole multi-touch on Win 7 is that Apple nailed multi-touch on laptops. In the TRACKPAD. I have no interest in touching the screen, but add a few gestures to the trackpad, genius.

[oyebto]

lets just wait for the beta to be out and den decide if its significantly better. but ms loves delays lol

[LizKat]

And you like touching your screen?

Mine is already dirty enough without me putting my fingers all over it.

I'm ready to do 15 to life if anyone so much as thinks about touching my screen. It's a disgusting habit. It's for kids and retards. It really won't take off.

Trust me. This isn't one of those things we didn't know we wanted.

Uh, we haven't seen exactly what Apple thinks some of us might want yet. So the jury is necessarily still out, in my book. All i know for sure are that I love two-finger scrolling on a trackpad and I love using iPhone's software buttons and virtual keyboards. Neither of those did I have on a wishlist when Apple rolled them out. I will be happy to see what Apple brings next. It's like being on a road that's still under construction. Don't have to stay on it, of course, but it's been an entertaining trip so far!

[Mykbibby]

Walt asks Ballmer if he’s worried about the next iteration of Mac OS X, which will likely be released before Windows 7. Is there a risk that the work you’re doing now with multi-touch will look dated when Apple releases its next OS?
Ballmer says he’s confident Microsoft will have fantastic Windows 7 PCs, regardless of what Apple’s got on the market. “There’s a lot in Windows 7, and our goal is to produce fantastic PCs with our hardware partners.
Walt presses him, noting Apple’s recent growth in the PC market.
Ballmer notes the difference in scale between the two companies: “We sell 270 millions PCs a year, and Apple sells 10 million. They’re fantastically successful, and so are we.”
Walt hits on Windows quality issue, noting that he’s seen old Macs running significantly faster than new Vista machines.
Ballmer admits there’s room for improvement: Steve Jobs has a great business, he says. His model works well. But so does ours. 10 million people like his model. 290 million like ours.
Kara asks Gates how it feels to have Microsoft defined by Apple via its “I’m a Mac, I’m a PC” campaign.
Gates clearly isn’t happy with that question. Dodges. Ballmer jumps in. Hits that 290 million metric again. “Every share point Apple picks up is a share point we don’t like. But we like selling 290 million units.
Walt’s not letting him off that easy : “C’mon, you CAN’T be happy with the way this Vista thing has gone.”
Ballmer: “What’s an appropriate response to that question?” Gates bristles: “You’re repeating yourself,” he says, alluding to the fact that the question has been asked already.


This is straight from the interview!

[caliguy]

I'm betting Apple has had a team working on a touch tablet computer/OSX for a long, long time. These cool gadgets by Microsoft that we're seeing now Apple has probably been innovating and enhancing as well, but they've just been kept under wraps.

Remember when Jobs said when the PPC to Intel switch was announced that Apple had been creating Intel versions of Mac OS X for years? The same is probably true for fully touch-capable operating systems.

[Mykbibby]

Imagine if Apple announced system wide multitouch at WWDC for the next version of OS X. That would sure piss off the Windows 7 team!!!

[morphineseason]

If it was Apple, everyone would say it was the greatest, most revolutionary development since the Macintosh...

Including me ;-)

My thoughts exactly. If this was about Steve Jobs demoing a new multi-touch Mac, everyone would be ooing and ahhing over it, but since it's Microsoft, everyone comes out in true fanboi form. I have no doubt that Apple has something up their sleeve that will top this by a landslide, but to sit around and act like all of a sudden none of us are interested in having multi-touch display & operating system built into our desktop/laptop computers is just naive. Heck, I remember when there was a thread going on here not to long ago with everyone posting mockups of what a multi-touch iMac might look like.

[G58]

Thanks for that Mykbibby. When I clicked the link, all I got was:
___________________________________________________
Your browser or operating system is not supported
If you would like to continue anyway, click the button below.
Continue to MSN Video

We recommend the following browsers:
Internet Explorer 6 or 7 and FireFox 2.x on Windows XP SP2
Internet Explorer 7 and FireFox 2.x on Windows Vista
FireFox 2.x on Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger
___________________________________________________

I'm using Safari on a MacBook Pro running 10.4.11.

Sure, I could launch Firefox and copy paste the url, but really, these two clowns have had their day. They aren't funny anymore. Nothing they say is credible. I've seen and heard it all before.

I'd rather watch Walt take his afternoon nap.

But here's the latest news from England:

It's raining heavily outside, and the wind is blowing from the south west! <ironic smiley>




Walt asks Ballmer if he’s worried about the next iteration of Mac OS X, which will likely be released before Windows 7. Is there a risk that the work you’re doing now with multi-touch will look dated when Apple releases its next OS?
Ballmer says he’s confident Microsoft will have fantastic Windows 7 PCs, regardless of what Apple’s got on the market. “There’s a lot in Windows 7, and our goal is to produce fantastic PCs with our hardware partners.
Walt presses him, noting Apple’s recent growth in the PC market.
Ballmer notes the difference in scale between the two companies: “We sell 270 millions PCs a year, and Apple sells 10 million. They’re fantastically successful, and so are we.”
Walt hits on Windows quality issue, noting that he’s seen old Macs running significantly faster than new Vista machines.
Ballmer admits there’s room for improvement: Steve Jobs has a great business, he says. His model works well. But so does ours. 10 million people like his model. 290 million like ours.
Kara asks Gates how it feels to have Microsoft defined by Apple via its “I’m a Mac, I’m a PC” campaign.
Gates clearly isn’t happy with that question. Dodges. Ballmer jumps in. Hits that 290 million metric again. “Every share point Apple picks up is a share point we don’t like. But we like selling 290 million units.
Walt’s not letting him off that easy : “C’mon, you CAN’T be happy with the way this Vista thing has gone.”
Ballmer: “What’s an appropriate response to that question?” Gates bristles: “You’re repeating yourself,” he says, alluding to the fact that the question has been asked already.


This is straight from the interview!

[puckhead193]

seems like MS is following apple yet again on the "modern mouse"
At times it would be simple to just point but i don't see this just for zooming in photos...

[thirdwaver]

*Yes, I'm aware Jobs stole the ideas from Xerox PARC.

For the record, I asked Steve Wozniak whether Apple stole the idea from Xerox Parc. He told me that Apple gave Xerox stock options in the company in return for the idea. So you can say it was a "steal" based upon it's success in comparison to what the options were worth, but by definition that is not stolen. Xerox sold it for what they wanted for it.

[planetgenova]

A couple more years until Microsoft releases a giant iPhone. *yawn* There really isn't anything Windows 7 does that my iPhone can't do right now.

[Syrus28]

Quite!

This is the company that has never innovated. Never got anything right. Why does anyone think that just because they pretend this is new, that people will buy it?

To be ahead of the game you have to be right. M$ have never been right.
Im glad you think Microsoft, the biggest tech company in existence, has never got anything right. How about Windows being the first major OS to add preemptive multitasking and memory protection, or a standard harware architecture that allows games to run without assigning IRQs. Apple didn't have any of these things until OSX, except OpenGL, which only existed as an alternative to DirectX, i.e. a Microsoft product.


If the hundreds of dollars MS loses with each Xbox they sell is any indication........
Umm... Its pretty common knowledge that both the PS3 and 360 are sold at an initial loss, which is made up in software/peripheral sales, and XBL subscriptions. This is not a Microsoft only thing my friend.

[DMann]

>We'll sell 270m PCs a year, and Apple will sell 10m. Apple is fantastically successful, and so are we.

Got to love this guy. Windows 7... To be released soon. :D

MS doesn't even sell PCs - Dell, HP, Gateway, Sony, etc. do. Steve Ballmer is a clueless megalomaniac who cannot seem to justify his own pitiful existence.

[zmit]

for once..... ballmer didnt COMPLETELY put his foot in it....

"apple is fantastically successful, and so are we"

at least he made a relatively neutral comment towards apple....
i tip my hat to him showing ONE sign of possibly growing up!


... it will be the last time :)

edit: ok. he is definitely ignorant as well, as the post above elaborates on.

[Syrus28]

MS doesn't even sell PCs - Dell, HP, Gateway, Sony, etc. do. Steve Ballmer is a clueless megalomaniac who cannot seem to justify his own pitiful existence.
To be fair, all those PC sales would be non-existent without Windows on it. People are buying the computers to run Windows, not to look at the pretty touchpad.

[G58]

Okay, you guys who want multi touch on a computer screen, give me a list of things you want to do with multi touch and why?

And then tell us all how any of that will be better, as in easier or more efficient, than using a trackpad, keyboard and mouse.

"Cool" takes you only so far. Nothing I've seen so far is even useful.

And finally, these fools have just sold this thing on a world forum using the blatant LIE that they SELL 270/290 million PCs every year.

If they had something that was capable of soliciting any more meaningful or higher response, than "cool", if this really was something new, if it was really useful... they wouldn't need to lie. Let me repeat that:

T H E Y
W O U L D N ' T
N E E D
T O
L I E.


I'm betting Apple has had a team working on a touch tablet computer/OSX for a long, long time. These cool gadgets by Microsoft that we're seeing now Apple has probably been innovating and enhancing as well, but they've just been kept under wraps.

Remember when Jobs said when the PPC to Intel switch was announced that Apple had been creating Intel versions of Mac OS X for years? The same is probably true for fully touch-capable operating systems.

[DMann]

Umm... Its pretty common knowledge that both the PS3 and 360 are sold at an initial loss, which is made up in software/peripheral sales, and XBL subscriptions. This is not a Microsoft only thing my friend.

True, that is if every customer buys 20 or 30 games.

Read the following article and learn how the econimics of the Xbox get worse over time:

http://www.red-mercury.com/mmceo/mmceo_current.html

[Peace]

To be fair, all those PC sales would be non-existent without Windows on it. People are buying the computers to run Windows, not to look at the pretty touchpad.


I disagree. Windows already comes on most PC's and not because consumers want it that way but because that's the way advertising (Microsoft/Dell et.al. ) wants it.
People buy a PC because it's A. Cheap and B. something they think will be easy and useful for them.


Something Apple does quite well. Usually.

[karlfranz]

10 years from now we will all be sitting in front of a 50" multi-touch display littered with stickers warning us of the hazards of using our displays for extended periods of time due to potential head, neck and shoulder injuries. A 400-page booklet will accompany the display written in verbose legalese with pretty diagrams showing you proper posture and technique for using your display while minimizing the risk of injury. There will be a 20 page addendum with a disclaimer for any potential liability from use/misuse, all stemming from the famous landmark decision made by a court after a particularly public lawsuit by a consumer who developed whiplash from using this type of display in 2015.

Several companies will release a system of cables strapped from your wrists to a set of counterweights through a series of pulleys to assist you in moving your icons on the desktop or scrolling through your billboard-sized Word 2018 document once your shoulder muscles give out.

A fancy new company, priding itself in its high-end industrial design, will make a $10,000 version of the contraption that replaces the counterweight system with a series of stepper motors in a dizzying array of fancy anodized colors and finishes to match the decor of your home or office.

Eventually, the technology-privileged will evolve by developing larger and broader shoulders that will distinguish them from the tech-deprived masses. For the first time ever, it will be the techno-nerds and geeks who are muscle-bound, kicking sand on the puny 98lb weaklings at the beach. Charles Atlas and Bill Gates will be proud...

[Syrus28]

Okay, you guys who want multi touch on a computer screen, give me a list of things you want to do with multi touch and why?

And then tell us all how any of that will be better, as in easier or more efficient, than using a trackpad, keyboard and mouse.

"Cool" takes you only so far. Nothing I've seen so far is even useful.
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed... Anyways, I agree on the multi-touch, its pretty useless. But people would be hailing it as the next great coming if this were a Mac.

And finally, these fools have just sold this thing on a world forum using the blatant LIE that they SELL 270/290 million PCs every year.
Eh. Are people not buying the PCs for the sole reason of running Windows? When comparing Macs to PCs, people often relate PCs to Microsoft, and Macs to Apple. He's doing the same here. No reason to call him out. You know what he's getting at.

[heyromantic]

I remember watching a piece on this it was called like surface or something. This was a few months before the iPhone came out, and it was to be tested and released in restaurants as a new way of ordering food. Then slowly moving to personal computers. Now Windows are scrambling!

[DMann]

To be fair, all those PC sales would be non-existent without Windows on it. People are buying the computers to run Windows, not to look at the pretty touchpad.

But MS doesn't sell PC's - this is what Ballmer claims. People are NOT buying PC's to run Windows on them, they're buying PCs with Windows pre-installed on them - it's not like they have a choice of OS when purchasing a PC. Many erase Windows and install Linux instead - others suffer through endless loss of productivity due to perpetual restarts, malware slowdowns, and enormous peripheral compatibility problems.

[Peace]

But MS doesn't sell PC's - this is what Ballmer claims. People are NOT buying PC's to run Windows on them, they're buying PCs with Windows pre-installed on them. Many erase Windows and install Linux instead - others suffer through endless loss of productivity due to perpetual restarts, malware slowdowns, and enormous peripheral compatibility problems.

That's called "Restless Windoze Syndrome". Take a pill and re-boot.:p

[Syrus28]

True, that is if every customer buys 20 or 30 games.

Read the following article and learn how the econimics of the Xbox get worse over time:

http://www.red-mercury.com/mmceo/mmceo_current.html
Well that article was about the last generation of consoles. It would have been relevant had Sony not sold their current console at a loss. Its looking increasingly difficult to profit off of hardware sales (unless your Nintendo) as people are expecting more power for less money.

Also, the Xbox's Entertainment and Devices Division has turned a profit for the last 2 quarters, and I don't think its because of the Zune. Link (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/24/the-xbox-turns-a-profit/)

[tobyx]

I don't know if anyone really thinks differently here but I'm VERY careful not to touch my computer displays at all and clean them VERY carefully and thoroughly. As someone has said before, I don't want fingerprints on my screen.

Not even if Apple releases something similar (which I hope they don't in the near future, it's useless.) Can you imagine the strain on your arms, using multitouch on such a large surface in a crooked way?

[MacGohil]

LOL
Just visited Gizmodo to check this article in more detail...

There is a fanboy war flaming there....

I pity M$ fanboys.... by the time Win-7 comes out.... Entire Apple product line up would be running Multitouch in some way and apple would have innovated something else and taken off in a totally new direction.

M$ will always remain a few steps behind.... to be on the bleeding edge of technology you need to invent and innovate and not just copy ideas....

[Watabou]

And what is this I hear about a OS X-like dock? Really Microsoft? Even the dock? I mean what's the whole idea here?

[Syrus28]

But MS doesn't sell PC's - this is what Ballmer claims. People are NOT buying PC's to run Windows on them, they're buying PCs with Windows pre-installed on them - it's not like they have a choice of OS when purchasing a PC. Many erase Windows and install Linux instead - others suffer through endless loss of productivity due to perpetual restarts, malware slowdowns, and enormous peripheral compatibility problems.
Yes, Ballmer claimed to have "sold" that many PCs. His word choice is debatable, but his point is not. People ARE buying PCs to run Windows on them, you only need to look at Windows market share. If Dell just decided to replace all Windows PCs with Linux, I would bet their sales would flatten overnight. The consumers have a choice, with Dell, the 2nd largest PC manufacturer, offering Linux as a OS choice. If you don't want either of those, nothing is stopping them from buying a Mac. Also, "endless loose of productivity due to perpetual restarts, malware slowdowns, and enormous peripheral compatibility problems" makes me think you haven't used Vista in a while. The problems are largely overstated.

[Timjo124]

i kill ppl who put finger prints on my (computer) screen... why would someone buy a finger print magnet. not to mention how dumb you are if you want to angle your picture. haha. stupid.

pc everything sucks. and always will.


2.2 ghz MacBook 4gb ram. 160 HD:apple:

MacBook Pro 2gb ram. 100 HD:apple:

8 gb iPhone:apple: (R.I.P) lost on roller coaster at six flags.

30 gb iPod classic:apple:

8 gb ipod nano:apple:

[DMann]

the Xbox's Entertainment and Devices Division has turned a profit for the last 2 quarters, and I don't think its because of the Zune. Link (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/24/the-xbox-turns-a-profit/)

Turned a profit, but no mention of Net. Since Microsoft Admits All Xbox360's Are Defective, lot's of that profit has evaporated:

http://www.fastsilicon.com/latest-news/microsoft-admits-all-xbox360s-are-defective.html

Returns have been pouring in all year, and will continue to do so.

[miketcool]

Lame. Wake me up when my dual processor PowerBook G5 can make a complete skillet breakfast on its aluminum nonstick casing. Thats the only Surface computing I care about.
I can't wait for multi-touch viruses and the ability to pinch and zoom the blue screen of death.

[DMann]

Yes, Ballmer claimed to have "sold" that many PCs. His word choice is debatable, but his point is not. People ARE buying PCs to run Windows on them, you only need to look at Windows market share. Yes, Window's continually eroding market share.

If Dell just decided to replace all Windows PCs with Linux, I would bet their sales would flatten overnight.

Unfortunately, Linux is not yet stable enough, but Linux has indeed caused erosion in Windows Marketshare, as has OS X.

The consumers have a choice

And they are exercising it by regressively choosing XP over Vista.

The problems are largely overstated.

Only according to MS.

[G58]

I'm a very happy bunny actually.

People are buying PCs with Windows on board because it's what they've always bought. People were the same about diesel in cars once! If PC buyers have no choice, M$ have no right to claim responsibility for the sales.

And they have not sold a single PC. But they still take credit for it. Whereas Apple have sold 10M computers because they have two revenue streams.

This isn't a new argument. Nor is it a new hypothesis. The practice of getting your market hooked on your product is very common in business. M$ just happen to have been the most successful at it. But comparing them with drug dealers is about as accurate as one could get. Actually I should have said drug barons.



Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed... Anyways, I agree on the multi-touch, its pretty useless. But people would be hailing it as the next great coming if this were a Mac.

Eh. Are people not buying the PCs for the sole reason of running Windows? When comparing Macs to PCs, people often relate PCs to Microsoft, and Macs to Apple. He's doing the same here. No reason to call him out. You know what he's getting at.

Yup, buddy. You loose all credibility here. Your comparing Microsoft and Windows to drug dealers... Wow."

[Syrus28]

Turned a profit, but no mention of Net. Since Microsoft Admits All Xbox360's Are Defective, lot's of that profit has evaporated:

http://www.fastsilicon.com/latest-news/microsoft-admits-all-xbox360s-are-defective.html

Returns have been pouring in all year, and will continue to do so.
Again, your clinging to old problems. That article was wrote nearly a year ago, and I can't help but notice no major publication has that story. Also, Microsoft claimed all Xbox 360s sold in the 19 months before that had a defect that MAY lead to problems. Fast forward 11 months and 8 million more 360' sold, the Division has claimed a profit of $90 million for the last 2 quarters.

[miketcool]

Seriously instead of arguing who is better, or why we shouldnt fight because were friends; lets think about all the endless hilarious possibilities a multi-touch windows environment would be.
I hurt from laughing thinking about the hours you could spend spinning all those pop up adds around like a DJ because Explorer is stuck opening more. You could have an entire screen of off-kilter popup windows. Some could be spun so hard that 5-6 windows later they are still slowly turning under the new popups.
If you though Windows was chaotic and unpredictable now, lets toss in a hysterical GUI that makes that environment look like a fun house. Who said PCs were all work?

[kjs862]

Nice, but I just don't see the touch screen interface taking over the mouse and keyboard - it just doesn't seem as practical to me.

[the1payday]

Most people DO NOT buy a computer because it has windows...most people buy a computer because they need one for internet and email, the most basic of tasks, and only want to pay maybe a max of $500. The fact that it has windows is irrelevant to these people until they start getting viruses and such and then with shock exclaim "you mean there is another OS we could run that DOESN'T mess up all of the time?" Most people just don't want to put down $1200 for a computer up front...they would rather buy windows and pay $400 a year on either
A: services to disinfect, or cleanup said windows computer.
or B: a new computer to replace the windows computer that crapped out.
Of course doing this yearly, it's really just the same cost to buy a Mac that would last you 3 to 4 years anyways. I guess you can't fix "stupid" though.

Another thing is that people use Windows, because it's the only thing that most of them know. Their parents use it, their siblings use it, their work uses it, and their neighbors use it. I recently had a conversation with my mother who said that she had never considered buying a Mac until recent extensive use with my MacBook. She had never used one before. She knew no one who used them. But she saw from mine how clearly superior they are, and now my parents will be purchasing a new iMac for their house in the coming weeks. Macs market share has risen slowly over the years...I believe it is still only at about 7-9%. I have a feeling that once the Mac market share hits about 15%, that it will skyrocket within the 2 or 3 years after that...because people will suddenly start seeing them more frequently and knowing that there IS a BETTER alternative to Windows. It's just a theory but I think it makes sense.

I completely agree with the "touch will never truly take over the desktop" theory. Touch works AMAZING on portable devices, such as cell phones and iPods because of the simplicity of the devices. Surfing the web and emailing are awesome on touch devices, and more convenient in my opinion, then on a desktop. I could even see conventional laptops being replaced in the future with touch devices. I don't however think that the desktop could be replaced. It's just not comfortable or convenient to hold your arms in the air for a touch monitor, unless they incorporate it into the table. The desktop computer with advanced applications like Photoshop or Final Cut, is also much to advanced, with an exact precision needed that can only be obtained with a mouse so far. I don't think multi-touch is close to matching the precision needed for those certain applications yet.

And in closing this little essay/rant of mine:

Microsoft really needs to get busy innovating, or get busy shutting down. The company offers nothing of value anymore and it would be nice if they'd just give their money to Apple, so we could get some amazing technology. I can dream right?

[Syrus28]

Yes, Window's continually eroding market share.

Yes, with its worldwide decline of about .2% a year, Mac OS X will have overtaken it by the year 2500...

Unfortunately, Linux is not yet stable enough, but Linux has indeed caused erosion in Windows Marketshare, as has OS X.
You can't deny the impact Mac OS X has had, but Linux... Not so much. What is its market share, less than 1%?

And they are exercising it by regressively choosing XP over Vista.

Really? Im pretty sure Vista sales are more than double the present Xp sales. Either way, it's money in Microsoft's pocket.

[Clive At Five]

Yes, we've seen demos like this before but mainly from Jeff Han's team. This is the first time we've seen something like it from someone with the cash to implement it. Sure the iPhone has "multi-touch," but in a very limited sense of the term, especially in comparison to the demos of Han, and now Microsoft. (Pinch & swipe? That's it?)

To all the annoying MS-bashers, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Windows XP is to Windows ME as Windows 7 is to Windows Vista. Translation, Windows users are in for a treat. As predominantly a Mac user, I'm happy that MS will finally bring a little competition to the table. Competition leads to better products for all consumers. The MS-bashers just don't understand that.

-Clive

[DMann]

Again, your clinging to old problems. That article was wrote nearly a year ago, and I can't help but notice no major publication has that story. Also, Microsoft claimed all Xbox 360s sold in the 19 months before that had a defect that MAY lead to problems. Fast forward 11 months and 8 million more 360' sold, the Division has claimed a profit of $90 million for the last 2 quarters.

If FOX News and Associated Press are not major in the publication world, then
I stand corrected:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288313,00.html

a potential 1 Billion dollar loss in Q3 2007 will certainly eat a mere $90 Million profit (again, not net) in Q1,2

[Syrus28]

If FOX News and Associated Press are not major in the publication world, then
I stand corrected:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288313,00.html

a potential 1 Billion dollar loss in Q3 2007 will certainly eat a mere $90 Million profit (again, not net) in Q1,2
Which is a sharp contrast from Microsoft claiming "All Xbox 360's sold for the last 19 months are defective"

Also, the Billion dollars was written off by Microsoft as a whole, not the Xbox Division itself, therefore still technically "profitable" for the last 2 quarters.

[Peace]

Which is a sharp contrast from Microsoft claiming "All Xbox 360's sold for the last 19 months are defective"

Also, the Billion dollars was written off by Microsoft as a whole, not the Xbox Division itself, therefore still technically "profitable" for the last 2 quarters.

"Microsoft has written down larger amounts in the past — more than $10 billion in the late 1990s related to investments in telecommunications companies, and more than $5 billion related to antitrust issues — but a $1 billion write-down for one division in one quarter is significant."

[G58]

Agreed.

The only people I forgive for touching my screen are under five years old. Above that age, I assume they understand the phrase: "Please don't touch the screen". Below that age, I assume it's my fault for letting them.

I want to barf when I see that photo being kinked at an angle. I've been in marketing for too many years, and I know someone's got no taste when they do that on a brochure or ad leaflet. The only time it works is when the suggestion is being made that a photo has been dropped casually, and a drop shadow is employed. Otherwise it's for fools.

Nothing about this 'surface' warmed-up coffee table idea has any use whatsoever. And those who're suggesting we'd all be singing a different song if Apple had come up with it, are fools. Apple did come up with it, where it's useful - in a small device with no keyboard.

If Apple release a dual screen iPhone Pro, in which the second screen has multiple interfaces... that's a very different matter. It will be useful.


I don't know if anyone really thinks differently here but I'm VERY careful not to touch my computer displays at all and clean them VERY carefully and thoroughly. As someone has said before, I don't want fingerprints on my screen.

Not even if Apple releases something similar (which I hope they don't in the near future, it's useless.) Can you imagine the strain on your arms, using multitouch on such a large surface in a crooked way?

[DMann]

Yes, with its worldwide decline of about .2% a year, Mac OS X will have overtaken it by 2500...

No one ever mentioned overtaking anyone's marketshare.

You can't deny the impact Mac OS X has had, but Linux... Not so much. What is its market share, less than 1%?

Linux has undergone 61.6% growth since May of 2007. (from 1.25% to 2.01% of Internet users in March of 2008) As the platform matures, the growth will so continue.

Really? Im pretty sure Vista sales are more than double the present Xp sales. Either way, it's money in Microsoft's pocket.

Vista Sales do not reflect returns and exhanges for XP. With the enormous market share Windows has, at this time, the conversion to Vista has been disappointing, to say the least.

[Dan9794]

Am I the only one that thinks M$ should be fixing Vista instead of thinking about coming out with a new OS. That's like giving someone a sandwich with only bread then giving them another sanwich with only bread. (Bread=Bad OS)

[SirROM]

Imagine if Apple announced system wide multitouch at WWDC for the next version of OS X. That would sure piss off the Windows 7 team!!!

That's WHY Ball-Gate announced the touch aspect of Windows 7 already, because they fear Apple is going to release a tablet/touchOS at WWDC and they want to ride the coattails. Remember when Apple was supposed to release a tablet/phone and just before MacWorld, Microsoft announced the UMPC concept? They wanted to appear as being first and that Apple had stolen their idea.

Of course, they are just talking about what they plan to to do, Apple and Steve will show the world what they have already accomplished

[DMann]

Most people DO NOT buy a computer because it has windows...most people buy a computer because they need one for internet and email, the most basic of tasks, and only want to pay maybe a max of $500. The fact that it has windows is irrelevant to these people until they start getting viruses and such and then with shock exclaim "you mean there is another OS we could run that DOESN'T mess up all of the time?" Most people just don't want to put down $1200 for a computer up front...they would rather buy windows and pay $400 a year on either
A: services to disinfect, or cleanup said windows computer.
or B: a new computer to replace the windows computer that crapped out.
Of course doing this yearly, it's really just the same cost to buy a Mac that would last you 3 to 4 years anyways. I guess you can't fix "stupid" though.

Another thing is that people use Windows, because it's the only thing that most of them know. Their parents use it, their siblings use it, their work uses it, and their neighbors use it. I recently had a conversation with my mother who said that she had never considered buying a Mac until recent extensive use with my MacBook. She had never used one before. She knew no one who used them. But she saw from mine how clearly superior they are, and now my parents will be purchasing a new iMac for their house in the coming weeks. Macs market share has risen slowly over the years...I believe it is still only at about 7-9%. I have a feeling that once the Mac market share hits about 15%, that it will skyrocket within the 2 or 3 years after that...because people will suddenly start seeing them more frequently and knowing that there IS a BETTER alternative to Windows. It's just a theory but I think it makes sense.

I completely agree with the "touch will never truly take over the desktop" theory. Touch works AMAZING on portable devices, such as cell phones and iPods because of the simplicity of the devices. Surfing the web and emailing are awesome on touch devices, and more convenient in my opinion, then on a desktop. I could even see conventional laptops being replaced in the future with touch devices. I don't however think that the desktop could be replaced. It's just not comfortable or convenient to hold your arms in the air for a touch monitor, unless they incorporate it into the table. The desktop computer with advanced applications like Photoshop or Final Cut, is also much to advanced, with an exact precision needed that can only be obtained with a mouse so far. I don't think multi-touch is close to matching the precision needed for those certain applications yet.

And in closing this little essay/rant of mine:

Microsoft really needs to get busy innovating, or get busy shutting down. The company offers nothing of value anymore and it would be nice if they'd just give their money to Apple, so we could get some amazing technology. I can dream right?

Right you are! Unfortunately, MicroSoft is not in the business of innovation. They will continue to cater to those who are willing to settle for 'barely good enough,' to those who are unaware of anything else, (OSX) or to those who need to run certain MS programs, which will never be ported to OS X, for fear of greater Windows defection. The Apple Store strategy seems to be opening the eyes of many poor souls who have been previously unaware of a better alternative, to a much better alternative.

[Jaschr]

Where did they say they were going to put Ctrl, Alt, and Delete? I'm going to play with one at Bestbuy after I eat some chicken wings. :D

[Syrus28]

No one ever mentioned overtaking anyone's marketshare.
Yes, but you did comment on Window's degrading market share. I was simply putting it in perspective.

Linux has undergone 61.6% growth since May of 2007. (from 1.25% to 2.01% of Internet users in March of 2008) As the platform matures, the growth will so continue.
No doubt it will grow, but its market share is still minimal. Reportedy, Linux market share just passed Windows 98 last year, standing at 1.48% worldwide.

Vista Sales do not reflect returns and exhanges for XP. With the enormous market share Windows has, at this time, the conversion to Vista has been disappointing, to say the least.
Yes, but it would be nice to note that with Dell offering XP, Linux, and Vista, while HP and Lenovo offer Linux, and Vista, over 90% of new computer sales are coming with Vista.

[DMann]

Am I the only one that thinks M$ should be fixing Vista instead of thinking about coming out with a new OS. That's like giving someone a sandwich with only bread then giving them another sanwich with only bread. (Bread=Bad OS)

Unfortunately, Vista cannot be fixed. As it was, over 80% of it's code needed to be trashed, and features were dropped. It was a miracle, according to an employee in their OS division, that it was released at all.

[Syrus28]

That's WHY Ball-Gate announced the touch aspect of Windows 7 already, because they fear Apple is going to release a tablet/touchOS at WWDC and they want to ride the coattails. Remember when Apple was supposed to release a tablet/phone and just before MacWorld, Microsoft announced the UMPC concept? They wanted to appear as being first and that Apple had stolen their idea.

Of course, they are just talking about what they plan to to do, Apple and Steve will show the world what they have already accomplished
Microsoft's multi-touch is significant is that by putting it in Windows, it will have about 15 times more outreach than Apple incorporating it into their next OS.

[Syrus28]

Unfortunately, Vista cannot be fixed. As it was, over 80% of it's code needed to be trashed, and features were dropped. It was a miracle, according to an employee in their OS division, that it was released at all.
May I ask, when is the last time you used Vista? You seem to be clinging onto old problems. If Vista was truly as bad as you make it out to be, 90% of new computers wouldn't be ordered with them. There are alternatives.

[Agathon]

The problem of multitouch is not getting the technology to work, but creating useful interface paradigms for it to work with. The Microsoft demo doesn't do the latter. There's nothing there that isn't completely obvious or hasn't been done before.

A multitouch computer is going to have to have a fundamentally different kind of GUI.

Anyway, it is completely obvious that Apple is working on bringing multitouch to its other products, because that is the way Apple has always worked: try something out in one place and then bring it elsewhere. That's why the Finder looks more like iTunes these days.

Microsoft won't do anything worthwhile with multitouch because they are a useless company. All they do are show off cool tech demos that never make it into the final product. Go look at some of the tech demos of Longhorn. Those were far better than the stinker that ended up being released as Vista. When Apple gives a tech demo, the result usually ends up being commercially released. That's why people are always pleasantly surprised by Apple products and usually disappointed with MS junk.

[SiliconAddict]

I think Jobs already won since the iPhone runs OS X and has multitouch. Also, the Macbooks Air and Pro have multitouch trackpads, so OS X (the one on computers) definitely has some multitouch already. The difference is, no Mac has multitouch on the display yet.

Yah because the iPhone == a good OS wide implementation of touch. :rolleyes: Ditto with the Apple's use of multitouch with the trackpad. This is in the same vein as coverflow....the concept was purchased from a third party and since day one has felt tacked on to the OS\iTunes\Etc.

[DMann]

Microsoft's multi-touch is significant is that by putting it in Windows, it will have about 15 times more outreach than Apple incorporating it into their next OS.

Those numbers will likely be less by the time 2012 rolls around.

[ipedro]

I think this is going to be one of those threads like the iPod thread where everybody is calling it "useless", "just a gimmick", "will be dead in just a few years"...

Multi Touch is the future of UI. People are trying to apply multi-touch to the technology and standards of today... which is why it doesn't make sense.

PC's as they exist today will be seen as relics of the past.. sitting at a desk or with a computer in your lap for hours doing all your work and entertainment? Why?

"Computers" will be decentralized, casual use and specific use devices –ubiquitous to our daily lives.

You'll be able to go up to a wall or a screen on your fridge and quickly pay a bill, manage the home HVAC or purchase a song to listen to while you make dinner.

If you want to sit down and watch a TV show or view your photos, something like :apple:TV will be the device you turn to.

You want to read the news or a certain written based website? Grab a tablet that looks like an oversized iPhone, hit a few touch screen buttons to go to your favorite site and begin reading. Drag or flick to scroll/change the page.

For work, I can imagine Photoshop for example beginning to turn to all stylus/finger based. You do your drawing and manipulation directly on the screen with a stylus – how much more intuitive can you get? – and select tools and buttons with your fingers. The screen/computer would be a slate type and drawn on/manipulated like a piece of paper on the desk.
Coding work as well as writing would continue to make use of a keyboard.

I can see multi touch becoming very useful.. just not with the standard setup we use today.

People have this perception that a screen must be perpendicular to a surface. They have this perception because either all their lives – for the young members out there – or since computers became mainstream, computer displays had a limitation derived from CRT screens: they were big and bulky and had to be positioned in a way that the tube was pointing away from the user. As computers and their displays get slim enough (they're already there really), it'll become practical to use a computer just as people intuitively used paper before computers were around.

I've been saying it since Leopard was launched: Leopard is the last OS X iteration. I'm willing to bet that Jobs will announce the next version of Mac OS will be a multi touch based OS that will move in the direction that I've explained above.

OS iPhone and OS :apple:TV will be joined by Mac OS (whatever the name will be) as a multi touch family of digital devices who will each have their own ideal function.

[Syrus28]

Those numbers will likely be less by the time 2012 rolls around.
Less, yes. But how much less? Not much.

[tylerhbrown]

Really!!????
I mean you guys arent totally psyched to be able to do the same Fing thing you can do with your phone!?!?! Spinning pictures!?!?! thats the most productive app I have ever seen!!!! If only Gates's team can figure out a way to make a video if a dancing baby pop up on your screen and stream using minimal band with, well, then.... Then that guy just might make a million dollars.
THB

THBproductions.com

[inkswamp]

Im glad you think Microsoft, the biggest tech company in existence, has never got anything right. How about Windows being the first major OS to add preemptive multitasking and memory protection,

Hell, let's get right down to it and give MS credit for their biggest success: the GUI. Apple was first to get the GUI into a commercial product, but it was Microsoft that successfully pushed it out to a wider audience and a larger market and made it universally accepted as opposed to just being a cool feature on one company's products.

[netdog]

I don't want fingerprints on my screen.

This is really what it comes down to. I agree. It's not appropriate for most of our primary computing devices.

Now a large trackpad with an LCD and multi-touch, that's another story.

[SiliconAddict]

May I ask, when is the last time you used Vista? You seem to be clinging onto old problems. If Vista was truly as bad as you make it out to be, 90% of new computers wouldn't be ordered with them. There are alternatives.

They never did. That's the point. Mac zealots talk trash about crap they don't know ANYTHING at all about. Vista is a supreme modular OS. The the biggest point of Vista and its descendants is its modularity. You don't need to start from scratch to replace this or that. But again. _MANY_ but not all Mac users are people who are ignorant trash talkers who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about anything Microsoft beyond the party line of "OMG! M$! SUCKS! AHHH SUCKS!" remember...Think Lemming guys.

Seriously though it would be refreshing to see people think for themselves for once.

[Syrus28]

I think this is going to be one of those threads like the iPod thread where everybody is calling it "useless", "just a gimmick", "will be dead in just a few years"...

Multi Touch is the future of UI. People are trying to apply multi-touch to the technology and standards of today... which is why it doesn't make sense.

PC's as they exist today will be seen as relics of the past.. sitting at a desk or with a computer in your lap for hours doing all your work and entertainment? Why?

"Computers" will be decentralized, casual use and specific use devices –ubiquitous to our daily lives.

You'll be able to go up to a wall or a screen on your fridge and quickly pay a bill, manage the home HVAC or purchase a song to listen to while you make dinner.

If you want to sit down and watch a TV show or view your photos, something like :apple:TV will be the device you turn to.

You want to read the news or certain writing based website? Grab a tablet that looks like an oversized iPhone, hit a few touch screen buttons to go to your favorite site and begin reading. Drag or flick to scroll/change the page.

I can see multi touch becoming very useful.. just not with the standard setup we use today.

I've been saying it since Leopard was launched: Leopard is the last OS X iteration. I'm willing to bet that Jobs will announce the next version of Mac OS will be a multi touch based OS that will move in the direction that I've explained above.
While nice, do you really think that after creating a multi touch phone, that Apple will no longer create a conventional OS and go straight into a full-fledged multi-touch based OS? Thats a big jump.

[inkswamp]

That's WHY Ball-Gate announced the touch aspect of Windows 7 already, because they fear Apple is going to release a tablet/touchOS at WWDC and they want to ride the coattails. Remember when Apple was supposed to release a tablet/phone and just before MacWorld, Microsoft announced the UMPC concept? They wanted to appear as being first and that Apple had stolen their idea.

Seriously, do you really think Ballmer and Gates actually care about beating Apple to the punch on anything? The way some of you talk, you'd think Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer do nothing but sit around scheming over how they're going to one-up Apple, by golly.

These guys are the central figures of the most powerful software company on the planet. I'm sure they've got enough to keep them busy and don't give a rip what Apple's doing or how they're going to time things vs. possible announcements at WWDC.

[DMann]

May I ask, when is the last time you used Vista? You seem to be clinging onto old problems. If Vista was truly as bad as you make it out to be, 90% of new computers wouldn't be ordered with them. There are alternatives.

Yesterday, SP1. Still slower than XP, S-L-O-W boot time - way too bloated, period, UAC is pathetic, (yes, I am aware it can be disabled) a large number of apps which run on XP do not run properly on Vista - many compatibility issues. 90% of those 90% which have Vista pre-installed have been already well acclimated to having computer issues, and will thus put up with it. It is simply not true that consumers choose a PC because it has any incarnation of Windows on it - they do so to get on-line, buy what their friends and family already have, and to run software used at work. Incidentally, I do not recall seeing any lines outside of stores on the day Vista was released as we witness with OS X releases.

[arn]

Seriously, do you really think Ballmer and Gates actually care about beating Apple to the punch on anything? The way some of you talk, you'd think Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer do nothing but sit around scheming over how they're going to one-up Apple, by golly.

It has to bug them that Apple is the "darling" of the media with the iPhone and their multitouch etc... while MS is portrayed as the evil one.

I actually do think it would bother them. (well, maybe just Ballmer)

arn

[Abstract]

I agree.

Well I don't. It's earth shattering technology. It just happens to be useless on a typical laptop or desktop. Just keep that tech on tables and stuff, and I can see it being useful.

[ipedro]

While nice, do you really think that after creating a multi touch phone, that Apple will no longer create a conventional OS and go straight into a full-fledged multi-touch based OS? Thats a big jump.

Not at all. I think that OS 11 (?) will be very familiar to OS X users but will make extensive use of multi touch principles. It'll probably be introduced with a new iMac Touch and a tablet style Mac.

While you'll be able to use it with a Mouse and Keyboard, many people will find that it'll be easier to just use your finger for surfing purposes.

Of course, writing – like I'm doing now – will be more practical on a traditional keyboard.

Who says they can't coexist?

[beez1717]

I can already see that microsoft has a ways to go with this technology: it's there and working, but items are not snapping to grids ect. What we need is a tablet with this technology and all apple has to do is make their iphone larger and more powerful, and give it some more applications and they might have hit gold

[G58]

The [ironic] Mac Zealot's Prayer

Oh Lord please teach me to think for myself
I bought PCs for ten years and went though hell
I bought a Mac and my life was better
Mac OS X changed my life

But I realise now, that it's all an illusion
I've been brainwashed by cruel zealots
who are fooling me into believing I'm happier
So Lord, please teach me to think for myself



They never did. That's the point. Mac zealots talk trash about crap they don't know ANYTHING at all about. Vista is a supreme modular OS. The the biggest point of Vista and its descendants is its modularity. You don't need to start from scratch to replace this or that. But again. _MANY_ but not all Mac users are people who are ignorant trash talkers who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about anything Microsoft beyond the party line of "OMG! M$! SUCKS! AHHH SUCKS!" remember...Think Lemming guys.

Seriously though it would be refreshing to see people think for themselves for once.

[ipedro]

If we drop the old concepts of perpendicular screens and doing everything on one device, what uses would multi touch have today?

The answer is in what we're already using it for... the iPhone is the perfect multi touch device because it's casual use. Most people won't "sit at" their iPhones. They'll want to perform a task such as checking their email, making a phone call or looking up a stock or the weather... they'll perform that task and store their iPhone. Do that on a "sit at your computer" concept with a traditional keyboard + mouse combo and see which is more intuitive/comfortable.

If you want to write a blog for example... the keyboard approach is much better suited.

Managing your music? Neither multi-touch, nor keyboard. :apple:TV does it very well and I can see it improving as it moves from "hobby" to 3rd Apple OS. Yes.. three Apple OS's co-existing together, each suited for different tasks.

Reading the morning paper? Pick up the Mac tablet from your coffee table and read it there (i.e. Kindle).

When you think of many devices throughout your home, multi touch makes a lot of sense in many of them.

[beez1717]

here's the fundimental problem with this technology: there is no on screen keyboard, or double tapping that I can see so this seems to not work at all like the more advanced iphone

What needs to be doen is to elminate the keyboard in my opinion.

[stainlessliquid]

That's WHY Ball-Gate announced the touch aspect of Windows 7 already, because they fear Apple is going to release a tablet/touchOS at WWDC and they want to ride the coattails. Remember when Apple was supposed to release a tablet/phone and just before MacWorld, Microsoft announced the UMPC concept? They wanted to appear as being first and that Apple had stolen their idea.

Of course, they are just talking about what they plan to to do, Apple and Steve will show the world what they have already accomplished

Huh? Theyre riding the coat tails of a product that is nothing more than a really shakey rumor? That would be some sad spin by the fanboys if they ever claimed that.

Microsoft already has a product that uses this multitouch stuff. Its been out for awhile, its called Surface. No planning here, just some been there and done that. Surface is also by far the best multi touch solution out there, its so good that it looks like something from a sci-fi movie, they know what they are doing and would be foolish to try and copy an inferior multitouch system like the iphone.

[redsteven]

Multitouch screens are interesting, but its going no where for the average consumer/business owner.

Yup. Right now I'm sitting at my desk with my hands comfortably on my keyboard.

In a typical situation, why the hell would I want to have to hold my arms up in the air to use the computer? If I want to move the mouse across my 20" screen I only have to move it an inch or two. If I had to do it touch-screen style we'd be talking about moving my arm 20" for every 2" I have to move the mouse.

Touch screens and multi touch and other *touch stuff are nice and all, and I'm not saying that microsoft is stupid for working on the tech.

I'm just saying that... almost all of us... shouldn't care at all. It's reasonable for the Surface and that's about it right now : \

[DMann]

They never did. That's the point. Mac zealots talk trash about crap they don't know ANYTHING at all about. Vista is a supreme modular OS. The the biggest point of Vista and its descendants is its modularity. You don't need to start from scratch to replace this or that. But again. _MANY_ but not all Mac users are people who are ignorant trash talkers who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about anything Microsoft beyond the party line of "OMG! M$! SUCKS! AHHH SUCKS!" remember...Think Lemming guys.

Seriously though it would be refreshing to see people think for themselves for once.

Just stating what is true. MS DID have to trash much of Vista's error ridden code. The core kernel and services were reset to Windows Server 2003 SP1 and some of the Vista features ported over to the new kernel. True, code was moved and merged between code branches, but many features needed to be scrapped, most notably, WinFS. We'll see how things go circa 2012.

The [ironic] Mac Zealot's Prayer

Oh Lord please teach me to think for myself
I bought PCs for ten years and went though hell
I bought a Mac and my life was better
Mac OS X changed my life

But I realise now, that it's all an illusion
I've been brainwashed by cruel zealots
who are fooling me into believing I'm happier
So Lord, please teach me to think for myself

Oh, and please pray for those who suck Bill's d***
:rolleyes::apple::cool:

Bravo!

[infowarfare]

Quite!

This is the company that has never innovated. Never got anything right. Why does anyone think that just because they pretend this is new, that people will buy it?

To be ahead of the game you have to be right. M$ have never been right.

Im glad you think Microsoft, the biggest tech company in existence, has never got anything right. How about Windows being the first major OS to add preemptive multitasking ...

WRONG! Amiga OS was the first in 1985, then Mac OS9 and later Windows NT. Microsoft once again was way late to the game and implemented it horribly.

[shikimo]

Call me "traditional," but I would rather manipulate things with a few whips of the finger or mouse instead of using two hands not resting on a surface. Aside from applications on small surfaces (MBA/iPhone), I really think this multitouch is a gimmick (Surface/MultiTouch iMac).

Yeah...I'd like to spend the R/D money to go straight from keyboards to three-dimensional virtual-touch, 100% voice recognition home computing. That will be an innovation worth waiting for...until then, the keyboard and mouse are as efficient as it's going to get (just talking about HOME computing here, not handhelds, tablets or even some business usage, for which touchscreen is wonderful...but not new).


Gates and Ballmer are no better than drug dealers. They've got millions of people hooked on their product and now they're treating them like ****. I sometimes think people today would vote for Hitler if he had a cool schtick!

If your marketing message is trying to compete with "Arbeit macht frei", you're officially a world class c***

I can almost see the drug-dealer analogy, but how do we get from there to Hitler? I've walked under the wrought-iron gate at Auschwitz with 'arbeit macht frei' written on it, the one separating the prisoner barracks, human experimentation building, execution wall and the ovens from the officers' quarters and the current administrative offices/snack bar, and I don't get your metaphor...what the hell is that comment supposed to mean?? :rolleyes:

I'm a very happy bunny actually.

People are buying PCs with Windows on board because it's what they've always bought. People were the same about diesel in cars once!

Deisel cars make up more than half of new-car purchases in Europe. Even in the US, where politically-driven emissions regulations have hurt diesel development, the market is once again growing:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/02/bosch_us_diesel.html

Yes, with its worldwide decline of about .2% a year, Mac OS X will have overtaken it by the year 2500...

You can't deny the impact Mac OS X has had, but Linux... Not so much. What is its market share, less than 1%?

True, Linux is only somewhere between one and two percent of the PC OS market, but a) that's still a lot of computers, and b) it now accounts for 12% of server OS (http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5369154346.html), so it is having an effect.

[G58]

All the characters in Skoopydoo managed it just fine!:D

Bill forgot to mention that we're all going to have eye track detectors fitted. All we have to do is look > and the thing will move... right off the screen if we want... right across the room to a friend's screen, blink to copy their work, look back at our own screens, blink twice more and bam! their idea is ours!!

Easy really. Who needs a mouse? Who needs an idea?

... why the hell would I want to have to hold my arms up in the air to use the computer? If I want to move the mouse across my 20" screen I only have to move it an inch or two. If I had to do it touch-screen style we'd be talking about moving my arm 20" for every 2" I have to move the mouse... \

[ipedro]

Yup. Right now I'm sitting at my desk with my hands comfortably on my keyboard.

In a typical situation, why the hell would I want to have to hold my arms up in the air to use the computer? If I want to move the mouse across my 20" screen I only have to move it an inch or two. If I had to do it touch-screen style we'd be talking about moving my arm 20" for every 2" I have to move the mouse.


There we are again: being closed minded. Why must your screen be perpendicular to a surface? Why should the screen be in front of you? Is that how you read a book? Is that how you write on a paper?

In the example of reading this site, you'd have a slate style screen that you'd pick up with one or two hands and read like a book. You could rest it on your lap or hold it up... whichever is more comfortable to you. You'd flick the screen to scroll or change pages.

We don't have the constraints of heavy displays any longer, therefore you don't have to reach up in front of you with your arms up in the air.

[G58]

"Arbeit Macht Frei" - the biggest lie in history. Every dictator and megalomaniac since has been competing with that one.

I can almost see the drug-dealer analogy, but how do we get from there to Hitler? I've walked under the wrought-iron gate at Auschwitz with 'arbeit macht frei' written on it, the one separating the prisoner barracks, human experimentation building, execution wall and the ovens from the officers' quarters and the current administrative offices/snack bar, and I don't get your metaphor...what the hell is that comment supposed to mean?? :rolleyes:

[DMann]

Less, yes. But how much less? Not much.

This too shall be seen....... I, too, owned a Sony Walkman, when they had 90% market share of portable music players.

[Syrus28]

Yesterday, SP1. Still slower than XP, S-L-O-W boot time - way too bloated, period, UAC is pathetic, (yes, I am aware it can be disabled) a large number of apps which run on XP do not run properly on Vista - many compatibility issues. 90% of those 90% which have Vista pre-installed have been already well acclimated to having computer issues, and will thus put up with it. It is simply not true that consumers choose a PC because it has any incarnation of Windows on it - they do so to get on-line, buy what their friends and family already have, and to run software used at work. Incidentally, I do not recall seeing any lines outside of stores on the day Vista was released as we witness with OS X releases.
Are you serious? People are buying PCs because it has Windows on it. While they may not share the love for it many Apple zealots show for Mac OS X, that does not mean they don't prefer it. They are buying Windows to use Internet Explorer to get online, and Windows to run their software. They obviously were satisfied enough with their last experience that they did not go looking for alternatives. Especially now, when Macs, iPods, and iPhones are so popular. Still, PC sales are still growing in record numbers. I wonder why?

I have a Media Tech class at my high school, which is purely popular because they use Macs. However, ask the students at the end of the year and they are no closer to purchasing Macs than they were before. While nice, there are issues with Macs just like any computer. Never ending "beach balls", reboots, programs crashing, screen frozen, etc. I think you have watched too many Mac vs PC commercials and are simply caught up with all things Apple. Its ok to have a preference, and Mac OS X may very well suit you better, but its a little foolish to think people put up with Windows only because they are use to problems, or don't know about macs.

And frankly, it seems many Apple fans are like that. Apple has the "wow" factor that seems to attract people. No doubt, people lined up overnight to get Leopard for what? Time Machine, Spaces, and Stacks? You need look no further than the recent lines at the NY Apple Store to see that people line up for anything. They get caught up in the hype, and that has nothing to do on whether the product delivers or not, only that its Apple. In that case, there was no product. People lined up because it was a Apple Store and they say others lining up. Now, to base Windows popularity on whether lines develop at the local electronic store seems a little foolish, doesn't it?

[G58]

Agreed. That's why I said: "People WERE the same about diesel in cars once!".

Deisel cars make up more than half of new-car purchases in Europe. Even in the US, where politically-driven emissions regulations have hurt diesel development, the market is once again growing:

[foniks2020]

Multi Touch is the future of UI. People are trying to apply multi-touch to the technology and standards of today... which is why it doesn't make sense.

PC's as they exist today will be seen as relics of the past.. sitting at a desk or with a computer in your lap for hours doing all your work and entertainment? Why?

"Computers" will be decentralized, casual use and specific use devices –ubiquitous to our daily lives.


Touch is already huge with dedicated devices AKA appliances... like GPS, hi-end kitchen appliances, point of sale terminals, etc.

Multi-touch will become more standard with these devices but will also be used for General Computing... but not the way we do it today...

Touch UI works for almost everything except word processing. It works for graphic design, game play, navigating menus, flipping through text 'pages', photo albums, music collections... anything that is basically read only.

When you add in auto-suggest for things like searching and filtering it works for web browsing in general... ie: type the first few letters then pick your selection as it rises to the top, no need to type out the entire sentence/keyword set.

There definitely will need to be a move away from typing intensive tasks, letting the computer do most of the work with the operator gently guiding and suggesting via a touch UI which decisions it makes along the way.

I can see all sorts of drag and drop UIs that let you build queries or task lists similar to how Automator works... all kinds of preset building blocks that the user wires together to create their own personal workflow. Once you have selected a general direction for your task (Spreadsheet, Online Purchase, Photo Editing, for example) there are only so many options left... and a wizard interface would be very quick when you are not moving a mouse around the screen and instead are simply jabbing at the options with a finger.

I don't think most people can really imagine what a great Touch UI would be like. They are so oriented to doing all the work themselves using a keyboard and mouse that they are blind to how much extra thought processing goes in to the hand-eye coordination required to even do the simplest task using a mouse....

****where's my cursor, okay found it by waving the mouse around, now get it over to the window, click to focus, now position it just over the item I want to click on, click once (not twice, don't want to open it) to highlight it, now right-click to bring up the context menu, now ease that cursor ever so slightly over to the right and down so that the rename item is active, now click once. whoooh.... got it, oh crap don't click anywhere or I'll have to redo all that right-click stuff... okay now start typing the name and.... hit enter. Good now my file is named WTFTookSoLongToRenameThisFile.****

Multi-touch version:

****Cursor what cursor... there's my file, -touch-, got it selected, now I'll hit the edit file menu, -touch-, good it's open... now tap "rename file", ok that popped up a dialogue with a keyboard, tap-tap-tap "ThisWasSoFreakinEasy" and done.

[camsoft]

Microsoft needs to wake up and realize that multi-touch is not suited for a desktop or laptop because the ergonomics just don't work. It's the same reason why the tablet has been a failure and why I don't think Apple will release one unless it's just a slightly bigger version of the iPhone that can still be held in one hand. Who is gonna work on a computer when their arms will need to be floating in the air all the time except for gadget geeks? The problem for Microsoft is that while multi-touch makes sense for Surface it's only a niche product while the iphone is a mass market product so they are trying to force multi-touch onto PC's where it doesn't belong. Apple realizes this and that's why they made a touchpad that can do multi-touch as the ergonomics of that implementation actually make sense.


That is just so wrong. What you think the ergonomics of a keyboard and mouse are more natural than using your hands.

Microsoft are spot on with their direction. Microsoft are spending a lot of time working towards touch and voice recognition. You put a person that has never used a computer before in front of a keyboard and mouse, and watch them struggle. You put someone in front of a Nintendo Wii for example or a touch screen and I guarantee they would pick it up instantly.

You have to remember that these videos are of prototype software/hardware and of course the user experience will be improved.

I also think that if Steve Jobs was demoing this at MacWorld you lot would be saying how amazing this is.

Apple did NOT invent multi-touch it was being developed by lots of different people. Give Microsoft some credit, they do innovate, just checkout the Microsoft Research projects, like Photosynth etc.

[DMann]

And frankly, it seems many Apple fans are like that. Apple has the "wow" factor that seems to attract people. No doubt, people lined up overnight to get Leopard for what? Time Machine, Spaces, and Stacks? You need look no further than the recent lines at the NY Apple Store to see that people line up for anything. They get caught up in the hype, and that has nothing to do on whether the product delivers or not, only that its Apple. In that case, there was no product. People lined up because it was a Apple Store and they say others lining up. Now, to base Windows popularity on whether lines develop at the local electronic store seems a little foolish, doesn't it?

Yes, the wow factor has greatly to do with, "I can now use a machine which looks great, with a reliable OS designed to run on it specifically, furnished with applications which are well integrated and easy to use (uncluttered by comparison to MS menus) with FAR FEWER glitches than those I've put up with previously on a PC running Windows. The hype you mention might pertain to the extreme joy people feel in discovering a solution to their frustrating experiences of the past. At least, if a spinning beach ball occurs, a force quit will allow you to resume and save work, in contrast to a non-productive Ctrl+Alt+Del solution for a blue screen of death.

[infowarfare]

They never did. That's the point. Mac zealots talk trash about crap they don't know ANYTHING at all about. Vista is a supreme modular OS. The the biggest point of Vista and its descendants is its modularity. You don't need to start from scratch to replace this or that. But again. _MANY_ but not all Mac users are people who are ignorant trash talkers who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about anything Microsoft beyond the party line of "OMG! M$! SUCKS! AHHH SUCKS!" remember...Think Lemming guys.

Seriously though it would be refreshing to see people think for themselves for once.

You know, people like you make me laugh. You don't realize that Windows users are and have been the true lemmings...

The difference between Apple Fanboys (me included) and Apple bashers (like you) is that Apple bashers aren't really Microsoft fanboys; they don't really love Windows the way Apple users love Apple, it's that, deep down inside they feel they made the wrong choice because they followed blindly with the rest of the mindless Microsoft herd. And of course when you hear people switching over to a Mac and the joy and revelation it brings; to finally realize what was wrong with computing in the Windows world (i.e. having to "deal" with the OS constantly instead of just getting on with the enjoyment of computing) you get frustrated and angry and start bashing on every Mac forum you can find to somehow prove that your Windows choice is valid and better and that Mac users are all blind.

But the truth of the matter actually is; when Ballmer says "10 Million people like Macs and 290 Million people like Windows PC" he (as always) is wrong. 10 Million people CHOSE Macs because it actually makes them more productive and their computing experience more enjoyable... and probably about 80% of the 290 Million Windows people just didn't know any better! They didn't realize they had a choice! I STILL have friends that use Windows not because they like it (in fact, they really truly hate it) but because they don't think there is a true choice. I ask them why not switch to a Mac? They always say, "Oh, I thought about it. They look sexy and all but, I don't want to have to relearn computing and aren't they way more expensive? And aren't they supposed to be going out of business soon or something?" And that's the old fallacy. Now all things being equal (with Intel processors) a brand name PC with the same specs as an Apple will cost the same, but the Apple will have more useful software, be more stable, have a better user experience and be easier to learn out of the box, have a longer resell value and THESE are the reasons that Mac converts become fanboys... because they have seen the light. And THIS is the reason Apple bashers that still use Windows hate Mac users, because they didn't really truly explore their options and they feel left out now from the "in" crowd. They just don't get it...

Ok, rant over.

[Marble]

There we are again: being closed minded. Why must your screen be perpendicular to a surface? Why should the screen be in front of you? Is that how you read a book? Is that how you write on a paper?

In the example of reading this site, you'd have a slate style screen that you'd pick up with one or two hands and read like a book. You could rest it on your lap or hold it up... whichever is more comfortable to you. You'd flick the screen to scroll or change pages.

We don't have the constraints of heavy displays any longer, therefore you don't have to reach up in front of you with your arms up in the air.

It doesn't matter. Without a vertical screen you can't use a keyboard unless it's on the screen, and then:

1) Typing on a seamless surface is problematic. Even haptic surfaces are a primitive replacement for a physical thing, because they don't give touch-related information when not actively in use.

2) Typing on a seamless surface is not ergonomic... unless at the exact angle a keyboard would be, and in the same place in front of your body. Hold your touch-screen too flat, too steep, or put it too close or too far from your body and typing becomes a lot less comfortable and safe.

3) Typing on a touch screen obscures a portion of what would normally be your work area... requiring you to shift around your workspace more frequently. This is both distracting and antiproductive.

Finally, the vertical screen is the most desirable because it creates the least amount of perspective distortion based on viewing angle. Reading text like this is much easier when the surface is as close to perpendicular to one's POV as possible.

Touch as an input method remains only marginally more productive than keyboard + mouse for a handful of occasional tasks. Even for these, the k + m are perfectly capable, and for everything else they are irreplaceable. Basically, the idea of multi-touch (possibly haptic) computer screens would be a superfluous and very expensive appendage for any typical application of the personal computer.

[shikimo]

"Arbeit Macht Frei" - the biggest lie in history. Every dictator and megalomaniac since has been competing with that one.

Just for the record, the Nazi commander who had that particular gate installed--Hoss, I believe his name was--was a former POW during the Weimar years who, by all accounts, really believed that manual labor helped him build character and survive his internment.

As a majority of the people locked up and/or murdered at Auschwitz didn't understand written German--most were from eastern and central European countries--most historians have concluded that the 'arbeit macht frei' gate, like those found at multiple concentration camps, were there to subliminally reassure the workers more than the prisoners.

Even if it was appropriate to include a computer company with questionable motives/practices/marketing strategies in an anology with death camps--which it isn't--the comparison doesn't make any sense.

[kamiboy]

27 to 1, that sounds like the going rate of swine to perl.

[Syrus28]

You know, people like you make me laugh. You don't realize that Windows users are and have been the true lemmings...

The difference between Apple Fanboys (me included) and Apple bashers (like you) is that Apple bashers aren't really Microsoft fanboys; they don't really love Windows the way Apple users love Apple, it's that, deep down inside they feel they made the wrong choice because they followed blindly with the rest of the mindless Microsoft herd. And of course when you hear people switching over to a Mac and the joy and revelation it brings; to finally realize what was wrong with computing in the Windows world (i.e. having to "deal" with the OS constantly instead of just getting on with the enjoyment of computing) you get frustrated and angry and start bashing on every Mac forum you can find to somehow prove that your Windows choice is valid and better and that Mac users are all blind.

But the truth of the matter actually is; when Ballmer says "10 Million people like Macs and 290 Million people like Windows PC" he (as always) is wrong. 10 Million people CHOSE Macs because it actually makes them more productive and their computing experience more enjoyable... and probably about 80% of the 290 Million Windows people just didn't know any better! They didn't realize they had a choice! I STILL have friends that use Windows not because they like it (in fact, they really truly hate it) but because they don't think there is a true choice. I ask them why not switch to a Mac? They always say, "Oh, I thought about it. They look sexy and all but, I don't want to have to relearn computing and aren't they way more expensive? And aren't they supposed to be going out of business soon or something?" And that's the old fallacy. Now all things being equal (with Intel processors) a brand name PC with the same specs as an Apple will cost the same, but the Apple will have more useful software, be more stable, have a better user experience and be easier to learn out of the box, have a longer resell value and THESE are the reasons that Mac converts become fanboys... because they have seen the light. And THIS is the reason Apple bashers that still use Windows hate Mac users, because they didn't really truly explore their options and they feel left out now from the "in" crowd. They just don't get it...

Ok, rant over.
You are exactly the type of person he is describing.

P.S 20% of 290 million is still 58 million---i.e. more than 10 million

[foniks2020]

There we are again: being closed minded. Why must your screen be perpendicular to a surface? Why should the screen be in front of you? Is that how you read a book? Is that how you write on a paper?

In the example of reading this site, you'd have a slate style screen that you'd pick up with one or two hands and read like a book. You could rest it on your lap or hold it up... whichever is more comfortable to you. You'd flick the screen to scroll or change pages.

We don't have the constraints of heavy displays any longer, therefore you don't have to reach up in front of you with your arms up in the air.

To be fair... nobody should be using a 20 in. touch display unless they are presenting something or it's a workgroup display (like MS Surface)... Touch Screen hardware is going to need to be hi-res and independent res... as in like the iPhone/iPod Touch it needs to be 160 dpi + and ideally would be at the resolution of a high quality magazine 2400 dpi.... yeah, that good.

When the display is of such a high quality, you no longer have to sit at arms length for optimal viewing (both in terms of eye strain and in terms of aliasing artifacts getting in the way of a quality composite image).

So with a smallish, 13 - 15 in. display at very high resolution, you'll be able to interact with a lot more information than what you currently work with on a 30 in. display. With resolution independence aka vector based UI, you can make icons, text, etc. whatever size you need to best work on the task at hand.

Most personal tasks will not need anything larger than a 13 - 15 in. display... whereas for professional work such as what a designer might need to do... a separate large display would be great for previewing a composition but still most editing work can be done on the smaller touch screen.

Personally i would love to have a tablet mac to connect to my 30 in. ACD where I could work on both at the same time with the tablet showing either the entire canvas of the larger screen or only a portion of it but at the same zoom level... with a marquee showing on the larger screen what portion the smaller display is currently previewing/editing.

[infowarfare]

You are exactly the type of person he is describing.

P.S 20% of 290 million is still 58 million---i.e. more than 10 million

And you too are exactly the person I was describing and you STILL don't get it. Reread what I posted, open your mind, explore your options... it's not too late!

[Dagless]

i think jobs is more than aware that as it stands currently, touch as a MAIN feature for a computer is useless

Keep thinking that, my cousin runs a business that sells touchscreen computers (like an iMac) and monitors and they're doing extremely well. I've no idea who's buying them but from first hand experience there is a very big market. But these aren't some kind of super computer - they're just a regular PC with a keyboard and mouse that also houses a touchscreen and some drivers to make it work.

Though on a laptop? It'd need to have one sturdy hinge to stop it being tilted whenever you touched the display.

[Syrus28]

And you too are exactly the person I was describing and you STILL don't get it. Reread what I posted, open your mind, explore your options... it's not too late!
No, I don't get it. I've been using a Macbook since early 2007 and I still don't see the "light"... Thats more your territory, it seems.

[leehericks]

WWDC should be intresting this year. They should already go ahead and give us a beta preview of some of the features. Just a sneak peek. I'm not going to give a good reason as of why. That's for you to figure out.

Perhaps we are on track to hear something about 10.6. I wonder what the next big cat will be. They've finally got a lot of foundations built and the OS unified with 10.5. Perhaps a really useful implementation of multi-touch will be the hot point of the next version. Along with more bug squashing hopefully.

I think the current implementation of multitouch on the trackpad was the wisest choice for now. No extra cost for touch screens and keeping your hands in the "input area" of a laptop and not blocking the display. For traditional laptops, this is really handy. I love playing with the MacBook Air at the store.:D

[timothyjay2004]

Well, it's nice to know that Windows (7) will have finally get established iPhone capabilities... :rolleyes:

Could they please do something for once that no one else has done? I think competition is good, it allows for new ideas to come about and for those ideas to be modified in the best ways. All that Microsoft has done is implement ideas from other companies, not just Apple, into their OS. They used to be good about this, but that was in the Windows 98 or less era. Now, they can't get ahead anymore because they're too busy trying to catch up...

I honestly believe that Apple will have this 1 1/2 years (or more) sooner in their OS (10.6?) before Microsoft attempts to mainstream it into theirs, supposedly in 2010. The smarter thing to do would be to add the code into Vista for SP2 to gain an edge, then build off of it for OS 7 ... but they like to do everything backwards. I honestly believe that their 2010 time frame is too soon. Hell, not enough people have even purchased Vista yet. I firmly believe that their OS 7 will not be available until mid 2012 with a release in Q4 .. and in all truthfulness, it still probably won't be ready by then but at least it'll be out...

[Syrus28]

Well, it's nice to know that Windows (7) will have finally get established iPhone capabilities... :rolleyes:

Could they please do something for once that no one else has done? I think competition is good, it allows for new ideas to come about and for those ideas to be modified in the best ways. All that Microsoft has done is implement ideas from other companies, not just Apple, into their OS. They used to be good about this, but that was in the Windows 98 or less era. Now, they can't get ahead anymore because they're too busy trying to catch up...
What ideas are you talking about? Who are they trying to catch up to? It seems people are just saying things they see other people say.

Sorry if I come off a little hostile...

[JesterJJZ]

"Windows 7" sounds like old technology...

[Syrus28]

"Windows 7" sounds like old technology...

"Leopard" sounds like a cat...:D

[winterspan]

HAHAHAHH! This **** is RIDICULOUS! Microsoft is so retarded.

1) First of all, Microsoft doesn't sell computer hardware

2) The only reason some odd hundred million new PCs will have windows on them next year is only because of market momentum and not having competitors. People don't buy Windows because of it's great feature set, it's just the only real choice for average users. Ubuntu is great, but because of MS's monopoly, many software and hardware developers don't have linux ports of their software and drivers.

3) I especially wouldn't be bragging about how many copies of an OS I'm selling when all of my customers only want to purchase SEVEN YEAR OLD products because our latest is such rubbish.

Avoiding the practicality argument for a moment, I've never understood why ANYONE would want multi-touch on a normal computer screen. Multi-touch interfaces work great on smartphones and small tablets which you hold in your hand and look down towards, thus being an intuitive and painless way to navigate the OS via finger touch. On the other hand, manipulating a multi-touch interface on a laptop or desktop computer by reaching your arms out in front of you and touching the screen is completely impractical. How long do you think you could do that? 10 minutes maybe before you arms would get tired?

And regarding the practicality of multi-touch, again I think it is only really useful on a small phone or tablet to be a means for limited control of certain applications, and possibly gesture control shortcuts. Seriously, look at all the applications that have been invented for multi-touch. Other than navigation of large 2D and 3D spaces (think Google maps / Google Earth), what practical use does anyone see? Now, I'm not saying that there won't be future development of new ways to use the technology outside of entertainment, but for most applications and use cases for a typical PC, the keyboard and mouse are the fastest and most practical input devices for actually getting things done. I really can't think of much that would benefit from having a multi-touch screen bolted onto the existing windows user interface.

Try to find a use for a multi-touch touch-screen for

- web browsing
- software / web development
- graphic design
- video editing and production
- financial / accounting / spreadsheets work
- sales / CRM / HR
- word processing and document management
- CAD/CAM and Engineering
- Scientific computing and Mathematics
- ?



edit: Just for the record, I don't have an intrinsic hate for Microsoft, and I use their technologies for web and software development every day. It's not an Apple thing either, as I criticize them as well. What really bothers me about MS is not only the unethical business tactics they use, but the deliberate arrogance and incompetence they show towards their customers, partners, and the technology industry in general. For a long time now, they've been a negative force for almost everyone. They ran their only browser competitor out of business, and once they had complete domination of the market, they stopped development and progress of IE for years. IE has been the bane of all web developers existence for years. It's the most wide spread browser, and nearly every version of it has been complete rubbish with endless rendering bugs, totally inadequate support of modern web standards, and ugly proprietary extensions that have been the primary driver of all things malware. Microsoft consistently works to undermine technology community standards in order to force "vendor lock-in" and monopolization of their products. They also buy up ALL SORTS of small companies with promising technology, and end up either burying it or turning it into crap. They don't understand the concept of "innovation" or "originality" at all, instead they universally copy and rip-off ideas from other companies and individuals, and yet even those they copy they can't implement correctly. They treat their customers like crap all the time. Whether it's the draconian vista activation crap, to screwing all their PlaysForSure/MSN music customers by shutting down the DRM servers so they can't authorize computers, it is definitely a pattern of arrogance.

Bottom line, Microsoft represents many of the things that we hate in large companies with arrogant executives that think they can screw over partners, distributors, and customers without any consequences. Unfortunately, because their market status in operating systems and software always brings in the cash, they are able to get away with a lot.

[zirngast99]

there is nothing more to say: WOW! What an accomplishment! M$ inocrporated IPhone technology into a PC! What a big leap for mankind! They made somthing really big out of something really small! That's fantastic! Windows-User will love this, as they love everything that is big and heavy and brings a lot of cpu-power (just to keep their OS running).

So what's next? Will we see WinBooks and WinBooks Pro the size of trucks? I'd love these. Or hardeware-based iTunes on Windows? Sorry, we got it already :(

Funny to note, that from directly comparing ones sales figures with the ones of the smaller industry technology leader, you can get a proxy of how much better you are than the competitor. I'm so much more technically skilled than - say - my little cousin, so I MUST be the smartest technician around.

[queshy]

My bet is that SJ will have something to say about 10.6 at WWDC. It will be announced as "one more thing". 10.6 will include multitouch technology. Mark my words!

[DMann]

New York Times
John Markoff

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/28/slow-fade-bill-and-steve-at-the-d-conference/index.html

The joint interview took a slightly odd turn when, halfway through, the Microsoft executives consented to give the audience of computer industry executives a “sneak peek” of the next version of Microsoft’s operating system, known as Windows 7.

Although Windows 7 is not scheduled to ship until the end of 2009, Microsoft has been creating some consternation in the computer industry by talking about the new program as an opportunity to address some of the shortcomings of Windows Vista. On stage Tuesday evening, neither Mr. Gates nor Mr. Ballmer was willing to concede any major shortcomings in Vista. Mr. Ballmer said the company has shipped 150 million copies of the program, but he did acknowledge that Microsoft might have done some things differently “in hindsight.”

He blamed compatibility issues that have led to criticism of the program on the company’s decision to focus on computer security problems.

During the brief onstage demo of Windows 7, a Microsoft software designer made the puzzling choice to unveil a new “multitouch” feature by working with a paint program, evoking memories of the original Macintosh paint program in 1984. She then used the touch-sensitive technology with a photo collection and a mapping program, evoking comparisons to both the iPhone and Google Maps, which already have similar capabilities. (You can watch a video of the multitouch feature on the Microsoft Vista blog.)

Another new feature appeared to be a circular pop-up menu that provided a “concierge” function.

Fencing over the issue of whether Apple will get to market first with desktop multi-touch features, Mr. Ballmer implied that the two companies don’t compete directly.

[fiftydollarshoe]

"Windows 7" sounds like old technology...

I don't see this as an actual product or an actual work in progress. Its mealy a a "show" to investors that Microsoft is keeping up. There is no end product from this demonstration. Its similar to what they have done before and makes good business sense.

[Eraserhead]

Dock=not Apple but some Kobulator


Actually its an improvement on the Windows taskbar.


Widgets=always around


These are what was copied from Konfabulator ;).

Spotlght=search developed by MSFT but intro'd 1st by mac.

Not true, both were announced within a month of each other.

Microsoft got its start marketing on an IBM text based OS that was forsaked by them and overtly copied by their EMPLOYEE Bill Gates. No conflict of interest there ?!!?

That isn't true. Microsoft were chosen by IBM for the IBM-PC as they wore suits. They didn't have an OS but they bought it from another company, not IBM.

except OpenGL, which only existed as an alternative to DirectX, i.e. a Microsoft product.

OpenGL is much older than DirectX and is still used widely in professional applications.

Yah because the iPhone == a good OS wide implementation of touch.

Well yes...

Again, your clinging to old problems. That article was wrote nearly a year ago, and I can't help but notice no major publication has that story. Also, Microsoft claimed all Xbox 360s sold in the 19 months before that had a defect that MAY lead to problems. Fast forward 11 months and 8 million more 360' sold, the Division has claimed a profit of $90 million for the last 2 quarters.

In the last quarter that is down to Mac Office 2008 being released as the Mac Business Unit is also in that division. Before that it was Halo 3.

[MacsAttack]

Except when 2010 rolls around if won't be ready, just like Vista. :rolleyes:

No. it will be ready on time.

But MicroSoft will have stripped out all the cool stuff (like multitouch) that they said would be in it - just like they did with Vista. And the world will say "we would want to upgrade because???". Just like Vista.

[DaveTheGrey]

I get the point of the surface in a hotel/restaurant/casino and so on. But on my MBP? I didn't see any action in this video I wouldn't prefer a mouse over my fingers (except the piano thing, but I think nobody would seriously play on his display) Multitouch is a amazing technology but this was the microsoft way to implement it... no fantasy at all

[mhnajjar]

I have been using those features long time ago on my iPhone :D

[Gee4orce]

Hey, I've found the location of Microsoft's super-secret reasearch and development laboratory !

Here it is on Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1+infinite+loop&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.020054,62.929687&ie=UTF8&z=17&iwloc=addr)
:D

[Syrus28]

there is nothing more to say: WOW! What an accomplishment! M$ inocrporated IPhone technology into a PC! What a big leap for mankind! They made somthing really big out of something really small! That's fantastic! Windows-User will love this, as they love everything that is big and heavy and brings a lot of cpu-power (just to keep their OS running).

So what's next? Will we see WinBooks and WinBooks Pro the size of trucks? I'd love these. Or hardeware-based iTunes on Windows? Sorry, we got it already :(

Funny to note, that from directly comparing ones sales figures with the ones of the smaller industry technology leader, you can get a proxy of how much better you are than the competitor. I'm so much more technically skilled than - say - my little cousin, so I MUST be the smartest technician around.
No. Your the one making it big. Microsoft showed it off as a "small piece" of Windows 7, not "the next great innovation of technology".

Again, Microsoft only quoted sales figures after the interviewer asked if they were worried about Apple. I don't see the gloating your trying to pretend they did.

[infowarfare]

What ideas are you talking about? Who are they trying to catch up to? It seems people are just saying things they see other people say.

Sorry if I come off a little hostile...

I guess you missed my earlier post:

Im glad you think Microsoft, the biggest tech company in existence, has never got anything right. How about Windows being the first major OS to add preemptive multitasking...

WRONG! Amiga OS was the first in 1985, then Mac OS9 and later Windows NT. Microsoft once again was way late to the game and implemented it horribly.

So in answer to your question, who are they (Microsoft) trying to catch up to? The answer is Apple. Not because we are just saying things that we "see other people say" but because these are the facts. This is the history. Plain and simple.

I suggest you do your research and learn your computing history.

[Syrus28]

Hey, I've found the location of Microsoft's super-secret reasearch and development laboratory !

Here it is on Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1+infinite+loop&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.020054,62.929687&ie=UTF8&z=17&iwloc=addr)
:D
That little thing? Microsoft would AT LEAST need this (http://blogs.msdn.com/photos/jim_glass/images/693436/640x433.aspx)... or this (http://www.math.org/informs/microsoft.jpg)...

[Ludde]

...except OpenGL, which only existed as an alternative to DirectX, i.e. a Microsoft product.


It's the other way around there. OpenGL is the multi-platform OPEN standard that makes sense. Direct3D is the proprietary bastard of Microsoft who, as we all know, hates open standards. ;)

[will108]

I think that with Ballmer in charge of MS, Apple are gonna laugh all the way to the bank. The guy seems like a ******* retard... If i was Bill Gates i'd be s****** myself that i'd spent 20 years developing a company only to hand it to Ballmer...

[pmoeser]

To my surprise, I was kind of underwhelmed by this demo.

I think it's going to take Apple to bring out the coolness of a multi-touch OS. Then MSFT will copy it in Windows 8.

The piano keyboard thing was really cool!

Add that to Garage Band please

[Syrus28]

I guess you missed my earlier post:
Ok, I give it to you there. However, Mac OS 9 did NOT have preemptive multitasking as far as I know. Where did you get that?

[iPhelim]

'Cocoa Touch' is already there, as was explained by Jobs last year, so perhaps we will be seeing a touch interface on a device larger than the iPhone soon.

To the people saying things like "touch will never become big", "it isn't made for laptops..." i don't know whether to agree with you or compare your comments to those made by people about the mouse, we'll really just have to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch

"Multi-touch technology dates back to 1982, when the University of Toronto developed the first finger pressure multi-touch display.

The same year, Bell Labs and Murray Hill published what is believed to be the first paper discussing touch-screen based interfaces.

In 1984 Bell Labs engineered a touch screen that could manipulate images. The same year Microsoft began research in the area.

A significant breakthrough occurred in 1991, when Pierre Wellner published a paper on his multi-touch “Digital Desk”, which supported multi-finger and pinching motions."

25 years of multi-touch history, then the Iphone.





Look back at post 37 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=5491539&postcount=37) to see a Microsoft invention that uses software, a webcam and a standard LCD screen to do multi-touch.

Also note that the demo was done on a standard Dell Latitude XT (http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_xt?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz) tablet - nothing special in the hardware.

.....this is all true and i've read it before, but as far as i know Apple is the first high-profile company to bring the technology to consumers. Microsoft have now followed suit...are attempting to follow suit.

[Abstract]

Touch Screen hardware is going to need to be hi-res and independent res... as in like the iPhone/iPod Touch it needs to be 160 dpi + and ideally would be at the resolution of a high quality magazine 2400 dpi.... yeah, that good.


You don't know what 2400 dpi means, do you.



When the display is of such a high quality, you no longer have to sit at arms length for optimal viewing (both in terms of eye strain and in terms of aliasing artifacts getting in the way of a quality composite image).

So with a smallish, 13 - 15 in. display at very high resolution, you'll be able to interact with a lot more information than what you currently work with on a 30 in. display. With resolution independence aka vector based UI, you can make icons, text, etc. whatever size you need to best work on the task at hand.


It's true and its not true. It would be great to have resolution independence and higher resolution screens that come with it to make Touch tech better. However, you can say the same thing about any computer today. I want all these things now. I want these things now, although I have lived this long without it. I think it would be nice for multi-touch to have all the things you mentioned, but it's not necessary.

[DMann]

Microsoft have now followed suit...are attempting to follow suit.

Scrambling, as usual...........

Ok, I give it to you there. However, Mac OS 9 did NOT have preemptive multitasking as far as I know. Where did you get that?

That would be NeXT Openstep OS (S Jobs)

That little thing? Microsoft would AT LEAST need this (http://blogs.msdn.com/photos/jim_glass/images/693436/640x433.aspx)... or this (http://www.math.org/informs/microsoft.jpg)...

Imagine, with billions of $$ of resources, employees, and office space, they can hardly innovate, refine, coordinate among departments, and get things out within six years of a projected release.

[Syrus28]

Imagine, with billions of $$ of resources, employees, and office space, they can hardly innovate, refine, coordinate among departments, and get things out within six years of a projected release.
Yes, but they can post billion dollar profits... They are doing something right. Thats the one thing you can't deny.

[nesado]

Interesting to see how things roll out for MS. They really need something "big" to regain market share...

[DMann]

Yes, but they can post billion dollar profits... They are doing something right. Thats the one thing you can't deny.

Billions, by literally screwing consumers and businesses with anti-trust behavior. This cannot be denied.

[deputylove8]

Man...Seems like everything now is being multi-touched...

I wish they have mutli touch burgers..with a swipe

of my fingers..i can enlarge 'em cheeseburgers...


ruffles:D

[Eraserhead]

Ok, I give it to you there. However, Mac OS 9 did NOT have preemptive multitasking as far as I know. Where did you get that?

Mac OS 9 didn't have either preemptive multitasking or memory protection.

In the mid-late 1990's Windows was the more innovative OS than Apples.

Yes, but they can post billion dollar profits...

So does Apple.

[DMann]

1990's Windows was the more innovative OS than Apples.

Let's also remember NeXT Openstep OS, which was, by far, more innovative than Windows of the 1990's.

So does Apple.

Yes indeed.

[phalewhale]

All I have to say is that your arms are gonna hurt after a while of using something like this. If the screen is on the desk, it'll be easier on the arms but bad for the neck. Will need some sort of riser to place it on.

This sort of technology won't be any good on a laptop if this is the only way you can control the computer from. Not something I'm interested in. Tablets are a little different though.

Plus, I was forever cleaning my iPhone before I sold it to make a profit - so I'd be doing the same on a tablet if one is released at WWDC.

[psychofreak]

Umm... Its pretty common knowledge that both the PS3 and 360 are sold at an initial loss, which is made up in software/peripheral sales, and XBL subscriptions. This is not a Microsoft only thing my friend.
The Xbox recently started to be profitable

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/24/the-xbox-turns-a-profit/

[hiimamac]

Interesting to see how things roll out for MS. They really need something "big" to regain market share...

*takes cover hearing mac fanboy **** flying over his head*
This isn't going to be good.

Tell me about it...

http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.xml

Done in 2003, way before OSX and I love apple and Sun's looking glass 3D is 2003.

Widgets, Dock? Google Konfabulator, again not a Apple invention.

Spotlight? Microsoft, they had it years before Apple but couldn't get it out until Vista (which still stinks).

Then look at these facts:
You cannot play a game on a Macbook right? But at one time OpenGL for Macbooks were 120%, 140%, 171% (with Leopard) and then RAPED with release of X300, who suffered? The PRO user as at one point you could run Motion, so let's KILL the .001 % of the creatives, who cares about them right? I mean, Apple was at one point for the artist, not any more, not with all the drone hacked iPhone sales, imac drones and puppy dog owners, nope, its all about the consumer while pretending to be innovative.

Then of course there is the iMac, Glossy screen, (again, no pro use) and cheap firewire (non standard) and only the MBP and MAC PRO have the industry standard Texas Instrument FIREWIRE chipsets. Why? Well lets see, iMAC and GLOSS= no Photo shop or any PRO user app with accuracy, audio/video have drop outs due to cheap firewire. Again, Apple screwing the PRO. Then of course, lets release Mac Pro's with ECC server memory so the PRO can't buy their own RAM.

Yeah, okay, Apple innovates and is all about the CONsumer and CREATIVES. Not.

While I will agree OSX is the best OS out there right now, one only has to look at looking glass or google Konfabulator.

It amazes me how much people really don't know and in some major studios I have seen for editing (Avid is still king, as much as I hate it), and USE PC BLADES as the performance is huge.

Perhaps one day Apple will go back to catering to the PRO and stop worrying about their user base buying a cheap machine for CS3, or Motion, or even some college folks wanting to play games. Geesh, if it wasn't for INTEL, Apple would still be in the dark as a Dual G5 is trumped by a 1st GEN Macbook, barring of course, the graphics.

I will say though, they have an excellent marketing plan, buy leaking info, then not letting anyone know until the release date, keeps everyone excited and I will say the iPhone is probably one of the greatest inventions ever, but c'mon folks, stop thinking that Microsoft does all the copying.....and please, apple does not manufacture (wafers) for CPU's, memory, hard drives, motherboards, front bus, side bus, they are all X86 parts now, that's why OSX86 does so well - - a $600 machine that can equal a Mac Pro? Not to shabby and now their is EFI emulator which means all updates can be performed.

To be fair, I will say Apple designed the OS for the consumer and Microsoft developed theirs for their developers and OSX is a far more pleasant experience and their 3rd party software rocks. Now, should Microsoft decide someday to put the consumer first and drop the issue of copyright (speaking of which iTunes is a one way street, thank goodness for 3rd party ripping software), then MSFT could turn things around in a hurry. If they ever bought a computer company say Dell, and built software similar to iLife, it probably would rock. I was reading a few year back that even before Vista, that there was a new OS, so imagine SUN and Microsoft together.

Still, OSX is still the best, but lets be real here.

[Roller]

That is just so wrong. What you think the ergonomics of a keyboard and mouse are more natural than using your hands.

Microsoft are spot on with their direction. Microsoft are spending a lot of time working towards touch and voice recognition. You put a person that has never used a computer before in front of a keyboard and mouse, and watch them struggle. You put someone in front of a Nintendo Wii for example or a touch screen and I guarantee they would pick it up instantly.

Touch and VR will continue to work their way into computer operating systems, but in an evolutionary fashion. The ergonomics of interacting with an interface by touching objects on a screen are very different from the mouse-and-keyboard approach we've become used to. For one thing, the relatively small muscles used to manipulate a mouse or other pointing device are much more suited to fine manipulation than the larger ones used when moving objects on anything bigger than a small screen.

For text entry, a touch-based interface will be hard pressed to keep up with keyboards and related devices. And even the best current VR systems are flawed, and there are many situations where you don't want the din of multiple users talking to their computers.

Still, Apple and MS are to be applauded for continuing research and for looking for places where incorporating this technology makes sense.

[Eraserhead]

The Xbox recently started to be profitable

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/24/the-xbox-turns-a-profit/

Remember Mac Office is in that division and makes several hundred million dollars a year. And Halo 3 was also released in that period.

[edesignuk]

Apple need good competition as much as anyone else. I wish everyone would stop harping on about MS "copying" :rolleyes: Touch screen has been around for years, as well as the idea of multi-touch. Apple have a multi-touch hand-held device, and MS have a whole computer (Surface). It's pretty much a given that multi-touch displays are where we're headed, at least in part, naturally everyone will be getting in on it.

No one's perfect, they're all multi-billion dollar corporates, and I for one am happy to see them pushing each others buttons, it can only result in better products for us.

[Syrus28]

To be fair, I will say Apple designed the OS for the consumer and Microsoft developed theirs for their developers and OSX is a far more pleasant experience and their 3rd party software rocks. Now, should Microsoft decide someday to put the consumer first and drop the issue of copyright (speaking of which iTunes is a one way street, thank goodness for 3rd party ripping software), then MSFT could turn things around in a hurry. If they ever bought a computer company say Dell, and built software similar to iLife, it probably would rock. I was reading a few year back that even before Vista, that there was a new OS, so imagine SUN and Microsoft together.

Still, OSX is still the best, but lets be real here.
It would be nice, but would never happen. Microsoft gets sued for including Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player already, anything else would be suicide.

[Brianstorm91]

Am I the only person who doesn't really care at all for multitouch, short of the trackpad gestures?

and MS have a whole computer (Surface).

It's a big-ass table (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY) :D

[Syrus28]

Remember Mac Office is in that division and makes several hundred million dollars a year. And Halo 3 was also released in that period.
Halo 3 was released last september, year. Microsoft turned a profit last quarter. Also, how is the Mac BU in the Entertainment and Devices Division? I don't think it is.

[DMann]

It's a big-ass table (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY) :D

Outdated before it's release........... brilliant ad, by the way.

[infowarfare]

Apple need good competition as much as anyone else. I wish everyone would stop harping on about MS "copying" :rolleyes: Touch screen has been around for years, as well as the idea of multi-touch. Apple have a multi-touch hand-held device, and MS have a whole computer (Surface). It's pretty much a given that multi-touch displays are where we're headed, at least in part, naturally everyone will be getting in on it.

No one's perfect, they're all multi-billion dollar corporates, and I for one am happy to see them pushing each others buttons, it can only result in better products for us.

Well said.

[Eraserhead]

Halo 3 was released last september, year. Microsoft turned a profit last quarter.

Due to the release of Office 2008 for Mac.

Also, how is the Mac BU in the Entertainment and Devices Division? I don't think it is.

It is, so that division makes some money, and Microsoft gets to hide how much they are making from Mac Office sales (see wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Business_Unit))

It's pretty much a given that multi-touch displays are where we're headed, at least in part, naturally everyone will be getting in on it.

I'm not convinced how useful Multi-touch is on the desktop/laptop however, I don't think its as big as Microsoft think.

No one's perfect, they're all multi-billion dollar corporates, and I for one am happy to see them pushing each others buttons, it can only result in better products for us.

Well said.

[Syrus28]

As part of its third quarter fiscal results (for the period ended March 31, 2008) Microsoft today revealed that its Entertainment and Devices Division (EDD), which houses its Xbox business, has once again posted a net quarterly profit. The division saw an operating profit of $89 million for the quarter, and for the nine-month period its operating income comes to $614 million, a huge improvement over the loss of $746 million during the same period one year ago. EDD head Robbie Bach had promised a profitable 2008 for Xbox and it seems the business is indeed on track.

Revenues in the Xbox division were also way up. During Q3, sales totaled $1.58 billion, an increase of 68 percent. For the nine-month period, sales were up 34 percent to $6.57 billion. In its 10-Q filing, Microsoft attributed much of the success for EDD to the Xbox 360. Microsoft has shipped a total of 7.5 million Xbox 360s in the nine months through March. In Q3 alone the company shipped 1.3 million units. Microsoft noted that "cumulative console sales surpassed 19 million during the quarter, up 74% from a year ago."
I don't think that was because of Office 2008.

[Rhalliwell1]

Steve Jobs has a great business, he says. His model works well. But so does ours. 10 million people like his model. 290 million like ours.

No Steve. 10 million like Apple's model, 289998 people have yours stuffed down their throat and 2 people like it. Thats you and Bill.

Am i the only one that notices whenever Steve Ballmer gets challenged about vista he always compares Microsoft to Apple, but never comments on all the people "downgrading" (i put it in quote because i think its more of an upgrade, you get a performance boost, right?) to XP. He never comments on Apples huge growth recently. Apple are not going to have a dominant market share any time soon, if ever. Yet what % of people complain about OS X? and same for Vista.

It is clear to me who provides the best operating system for the 'average' user.

[Eraserhead]

I don't think that was because of Office 2008.

What the profit or the revenue? Microsoft only had to sell 593000 copies of Office 2008 at $150 each in the first quarter for that to be true, and 2.2 million new Macs were sold so I think its highly likely the profit was entirely down to Mac Office.

[Syrus28]

No Steve. 10 million like Apple's model, 289998 people have yours stuffed down their throat and 2 people like it. Thats you and Bill.
People have to physically drive (or order online) to the store and purchase the laptop just like a Mac. No stuffing of throats involved.

Am i the only one that notices whenever Steve Ballmer gets challenged about vista he always compares Microsoft to Apple, but never comments on all the people "downgrading" (i put it in quote because i think its more of an upgrade, you get a performance boost, right?) to XP. He never comments on Apples huge growth recently. Apple are not going to have a dominant market share any time soon, if ever. Yet what % of people complain about OS X? and same for Vista.

It is clear to me who provides the best operating system for the 'average' user.
Actually, he usually only includes numbers when people ask him about Apple's growth. I mean, he does have to put it in perspective. If you had no knowledge of sales and went only by media coverage, you would think Macs are outselling PCs 10 to 1.

Also, the amount of people downgrading is way overblown. NPD, who tracks software sales, said there is not a significant amount of XP sales, nor a increase of sort that would indicate people are actively downgrading to XP.

You see, when Microsoft releases new software, it does not compete with Apple. They compete with the last version of their product.

[zap2]

cool stuff. problem is, MS now needs to sell hardware makers on it. With Apple(or any software and hardware company) once they have an idea they like, they put it into action.

[eXan]

OMG stop this useless arguing already.

Apple makes what they think is good for them in the long run, so does MS. They are competitors, which makes them try harder.

In the end, its better for customers when there's competition on the market, not 1 company controlling everything.

I say GL to MS, if they make this technology successful it will make Apple bring even better products.

[Mainyehc]

Can't really say anyone is stealing either.
Dock=not Apple but some Kobulator
Widgets=always around
Spotlght=search developed by MSFT but intro'd 1st by mac.


Actually, there are a few things which aren't really quite right:

Dock=not Apple but NeXT (it did come from NeXTSTEP), which is Jobs is Apple :p
Widgets=not some, but completely Konfabulator which, some may argue, was loosely inspired on Apple's desktop accessories from System 1.0)
Spotlight=instant search first implemented by Apple in iTunes (as far as I can remember, it goes as far as iTunes 4, but it may be even older than that), hard drive indexing from Sherlock (maybe copied from Watson? That's a whole 'nother story, anyway)...

[Syrus28]

What the profit or the revenue? Microsoft only had to sell 593000 copies of Office 2008 at $150 each in the first quarter for that to be true, and 2.2 million new Macs were sold so I think its highly likely the profit was entirely down to Mac Office.
Ok, so your saying that the majority of the divisions revenue/profit was due to a product they didn't even mention in the press release? I have a hard time believing that. What reason do we have to believe anything other than what the press release says?

Either way, last year it was profitable because of Halo 3. When they post their earnings next month, your going to say it was because of GTA. Next quarter, Gears of War 2? Do you see a pattern here? The division is largely profitable because of the Xbox.

[phalewhale]

You see, when Microsoft releases new software, it does not compete with Apple. They compete with the last version of their product.

They didn't compete very well this time round then did they? XP is hands-down a quicker and more stable OS than Vista.

[Project]

Xbox didn't make a profit in the last quarter. Microsoft admitted as much recently.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/137377.asp?source=rss

Does the operating profit mean that the company is no longer losing money on the Xbox 360 hardware?

Colleen Healy, Microsoft's general manager of investor relations, didn't answer that question directly when I asked this afternoon. However, she said, "What I can confirm for you is we're making really good progress on that cost curve."

And lets not forget the project as a whole has sunk $6bn. The chances of them recouping what they have invested on the 360 before having to do all of the R&D again for the next version, is slim. The console market is a tough business.

[peterdevries]

Multitouch is cool and all, but I would rather hear comments from Gates and Ballmer such as:

"we are going to make Windows 7 truly intuitive tu use, and give it a uniform look and feel. And in addition we are going to release only one version that everyone can use."

"we will cut the loading time by 30 seconds and increase security"

"we will make the OS more accessible to the general people that do not know how to configure periferals and network settings etc"

All a little too late though. Jobs did this with Apple eons ago. I switched frustrated from Vista 5 months ago and couldn't be happier. I don't think I will go back, if the above things don't happen.

[Syrus28]

They didn't compete very well this time round then did they? XP is hands-down a quicker and more stable OS than Vista.
In some regards, not very well at all. However, Vista is more secure than XP, has some nice features and is showing progress. We only need look at XP when it first came out...

[HiRez]

Leave it to M$ to take great technology and make it buggy, clumsy, and underwhelming. They really managed to suck the magic right out of it. Wake me up when you have something elegant and useful to show, instead of a few useless demo hacks. :rolleyes:

However, competition is good and it should nonetheless spur Apple to make sure they put the technology to its best use.

[Syrus28]

Multitouch is cool and all, but I would rather hear comments from Gates and Ballmer such as:

"we are going to make Windows 7 truly intuitive tu use, and give it a uniform look and feel. And in addition we are going to release only one version that everyone can use."

"we will cut the loading time by 30 seconds and increase security"

"we will make the OS more accessible to the general people that do not know how to configure periferals and network settings etc"

All a little too late though. Jobs did this with Apple eons ago. I switched frustrated from Vista 5 months ago and couldn't be happier. I don't think I will go back, if the above things don't happen.
This wasn't a big event. Just a "small peak" at Windows 7 and some uniform Microsoft vs Apple interview questions. Windows 7 is still 18 months off.

Although, I sure hope the above things will happen.

[deathshrub]

**** you, ballmer.

[phalewhale]

In some regards, not very well at all. However, Vista is more secure than XP, has some nice features and is showing progress. We only need look at XP when it first came out...

Maybe the only thing going for Vista is that it can't get any worse (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070530-windows-vista-no-more-secure-than-xp-report.html) at least until SP2... ;)

[Syrus28]

Xbox didn't make a profit in the last quarter. Microsoft admitted as much recently.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/137377.asp?source=rss

And lets not forget the project as a whole has sunk $6bn. The chances of them recouping what they have invested on the 360 before having to do all of the R&D again for the next version, is slim. The console market is a tough business.
I read the article, where did they say the Xbox division didn't make a profit? It stated the $89 million in operating profit... Just no comment on whether the Xbox was still sold at an initial loss.

Yeah, the market is tough. However, I think the $6 billion was well worth it. They dearly needed a "consumer" product, and now they have made a new name for themselves and potentially new source of income for them. They came in at the right time, introduced the 1st hard drive enabled console, made online gaming big, and is now #2 in console sales. I mean, who really would have believed Microsoft would be outselling the playstation?

[Eraserhead]

Ok, so your saying that the majority of the divisions revenue/profit was due to a product they didn't even mention in the press release? I have a hard time believing that.

Because they don't want to admit the Xbox is failing or how much they are raking in from Apple's booming Mac sales.

What reason do we have to believe anything other than what the press release says?

Because the press-release is marketing speak.

Either way, last year it was profitable because of Halo 3.

Which is made by Microsoft so they get *all* the money from it, that's an exception.


When they post their earnings next month, your going to say it was because of GTA.

If they make a small (<$75 million) profit next quarter it'll be down to Mac Office continuing to sell well. If they make a large profit it'll be down to the Xbox.

[phrygiana]

If I were living in "Second Life", that would make sense, but
in real world, I would choose to see real photos in my real album
with real feeling, listening to the music being played on turntable or
CD player. Going all digital does seem erase the real world, I mean
tangible & physical world.

[Kinderhauz]

On the debate about the usefulness of multi-touch, I think good arguments are being made on both sides.

I definitely see multi-touch changing the way we interact with computers. Anyone who watches the demos of Microsoft Surface has to admit that the technology is not only extremely cool, but extremely useful in a variety of contexts.

However, I agree that multi-touch on the laptop as shown in the Windows 7 demo is kind of silly. Not only will your arms get tired, but the impact of your fingers against the screen will cause the laptop screen to bob around on its hinges. And when the person in the demo uses two hands on that little laptop screen, it looks pretty cramped and awkward.

I think multi-touch would be great in a tablet form, where you can look down at the screen, or look at it at an angle.

I can also imagine a time when desktops are multi-touch. As others have pointed out, the screen will not be perpindicular. I imagine the screen being like a canvas, propped up at about a 30 degree angle. If you needed to type, you could pull up a virtual keyboard. And that's assuming voice recognition hasn't made typing obsolete.

As for the argument that virtual keyboards do not provide enough tactile feedback -- I think this notion is just based on the fact that we are accustomed to clunky physical keyboards. If we were raised on virtual keyboards like in Star Trek, we wouldn't miss the tactile feedback (or haptic response would be all we needed).

Besides, a virtual keyboard would be a lot smarter than the inanimate objects that we currently do our typing on. A virtual keyboard would fit itself to our hand sizes and ergonomic preferences. It would be smart enough to predict the keys we are trying to stroke if we give an ambiguous input.

- web browsing
- software / web development
- graphic design
- video editing and production
- financial / accounting / spreadsheets work
- sales / CRM / HR
- word processing and document management
- CAD/CAM and Engineering
- Scientific computing and Mathematics

I can see multi-touch being useful in all of these areas -- particularly things like graphic design, CAD, and video editing. These things are inherently visual and lend themselves to graphic modeling and direct manipulation of objects.

Also, I think we need to assume that voice recognition will also be an integral part of future interfaces (I suspect a lot of web browsing will be done by voice commands).

As far as sales -- have you watched the videos for the Microsoft Surface? You know, I always thought the first widely-used multi-touch applications would be silly paint programs or something, but it turns out Microsoft is putting multi-touch to work in a really impressive way in business environments. There is a cool video on YouTube where a guy is using Surface to customize different snowboards at a hypothetical snowboard store.

I imagine multi-touch would work with web browsing in a similar way. You could go to Amazon and browse though books like a library. If you find books that interest you, you physically move them aside and put them on a stack instead of clicking on "Add to Wishlist" and waiting for another webpage to load and then having to click your way back to where you were before.

I also think multi-touch has interesting applications in science and math vis-a-vis how we visualize and manipulate data.

[Syrus28]

Maybe the only thing going for Vista is that it can't get any worse (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070530-windows-vista-no-more-secure-than-xp-report.html) at least until SP2... ;)

Vista is more secure than XP (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9084738) --ComputerWorld

Vista More Secure than XP (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/32596/108/) --TgDaily

Its really up in the air at this point.

[Digital Skunk]

SO where's the beef?

I hope Windows 7 doesn't include the best of 2008 technology and multitouch in 2010.

I actually want Windows 7 to be a kick @$$ OS so I could possibly own some PCs along with the Mac that are strung across my office.

[Eraserhead]

is now #2 in console sales.

Overall for the generation yes.

I mean, who really would have believed Microsoft would be outselling the playstation?

They aren't currently outselling the Playstation worldwide. They are a few hundred units ahead in the US and are behind in all other markets.

[Syrus28]

Because they don't want to admit the Xbox is failing or how much they are raking in from Apple's booming Mac sales.

Because the press-release is marketing speak.

Which is made by Microsoft so they get *all* the money from it, that's an exception.

If they make a small (<$75 million) profit next quarter it'll be down to Mac Office continuing to sell well. If they make a large profit it'll be down to the Xbox.
I like how everything Microsoft has seems to involve Apple in some way. There is simply no reason to believe Mac 2008 was the dominating source of income for the division, when it is not even mentioned in the press release. They did, however, contribute the success to the Xbox 360. Who are we to say they are wrong? We could go on and on about this, but Microsoft contributes the success to the Xbox 360, and we know nothing more.

They aren't currently outselling the Playstation worldwide. They are a few hundred units ahead in the US and are behind in all other markets.
Overall, the Xbox has sold some 19 million, with the PS3 at 12.6 million, which was what I was referring to.

[hurtle]

*Yes, I'm aware Jobs stole the ideas from Xerox PARC.

Your awareness is incorrect, Apple licensed the technology from xerox parc. Which wasn't very developed anyway, there were no drop down menus for example. Most of what we nowadays think of as the Graphical User Interface was invented by Apple

[fluidedge]

doesn't look very multi touch to me - hitting one piano key at a time is so 1993 and making photos bigger/smaller with the pinch method is nothing new to iPhone users

i thought windows 7 multitouch was going to 'blow us away' - or are they keeping some of these features super secret till the launch like Jobs did with Leopard (what a let down that turned out to be)

[phalewhale]

Vista is more secure than XP (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9084738) --ComputerWorld

Scroll down to the article summary and it says:
"I don't think Vista is really any more secure than XP," he said. "People still need to practice safe computing and need to have good security software, and keep their machines patched and up to date."

Vista More Secure than XP (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/32596/108/) --TgDaily

Its really up in the air at this point.

That article was from June 2007, as was the one I quoted in a previous post.

My experience of Vista was awful. It took ages to move/copy/delete files. It was actually quicker to perform such actions from within an XP Virtual Machine on Vista! I believe this was something to do with DRM and may have been improved in an update? The OS simply felt too bloated and slow for my needs. It was on a fairly speedy machine too. Needless to say, I went back to XP for the odd few tasks I now need to carry out on a Microsoft platform...

[CJM]

But MS doesn't sell PC's - this is what Ballmer claims. People are NOT buying PC's to run Windows on them, they're buying PCs with Windows pre-installed on them - it's not like they have a choice of OS when purchasing a PC. Many erase Windows and install Linux instead - others suffer through endless loss of productivity due to perpetual restarts, malware slowdowns, and enormous peripheral compatibility problems.


Many?

A couple erase Windows...

[Syrus28]

.
My experience of Vista was awful. It took ages to move/copy/delete files. It was actually quicker to perform such actions from within an XP Virtual Machine on Vista! I believe this was something to do with DRM and may have been improved in an update? The OS simply felt too bloated and slow for my needs. It was on a fairly speedy machine too. Needless to say, I went back to XP for the odd few tasks I now need to carry out on a Microsoft platform...
Yeah, that was bad. Part of it was the time it took to estimate the time it takes... However, SP1 got rid of that. Much faster indeed.

[Eraserhead]

I like how everything Microsoft has seems to involve Apple in some way.

It does when the MacBU is in that division.

There is simply no reason to believe Mac 2008 was the dominating source of income for the division,

http://bigtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/03/25/microsoft-looks-to-cash-in-on-the-iphone/

Fortune reckon $200 million a year profit from the Mac Business Unit (i.e. $50 million/quarter), it seems more than reasonable to me that they would do better than that in the quarter when the first Intel native version of Office for Mac was released ;).

[phalewhale]

Yeah, that was bad. Part of it was the time it took to estimate the time it takes... However, SP1 got rid of that. Much faster indeed.

Good to hear SP1 sorted that out. That was THE major gripe for me.

[Neuro]

Hmm, tired arms after 10 mins use!

[fluidedge]

Hmm, tired arms after 10 mins use!

very true! lol

thats whats so great about the mouse. I use a tablet to do some PS work and stuff sometimes and i really do get tired with that after an hour or so, imagine what using multitouch (OK not all the time) would do to you.

You have to concentrate on being more accurate when not using a mouse too. There is a large margin for error on where you click when using a mouse. Multi touch with fat fingers will be fun!

[BornAgainMac]

I bet it will freeze up a lot and run slow with all the spyware. Viruses will be designed for multitouch and trick the user to pull a virtual finger and have their data removed.

[Eidorian]

Not a terribly valuable feature to entice me get me to buy Windows 7. I'm more concerned about the rest of the operating system.

Leopard and Vista are working fine here.

[xUKHCx]

For all those that bash multi-touch what will you say when apple implements it because it has been quite obvious for some time that apple will in fact do so.

Competition is good.

[Tallest Skil]

Apple's plan for OS XI was multitouch and the eradication of the mouse. To do this, the word "computer" would need to be redefined to accommodate the new style of interface. Steve is fine with that; releasing another set of mold-breakers.

Now that the Microtards are jumping his gun, we'll see Apple innovate faster.

[Project]

I read the article, where did they say the Xbox division didn't make a profit? It stated the $89 million in operating profit... Just no comment on whether the Xbox was still sold at an initial loss.

Yeah, the market is tough. However, I think the $6 billion was well worth it. They dearly needed a "consumer" product, and now they have made a new name for themselves and potentially new source of income for them. They came in at the right time, introduced the 1st hard drive enabled console, made online gaming big, and is now #2 in console sales. I mean, who really would have believed Microsoft would be outselling the playstation?


You have to read between the lines.

Given the small profit the E&D division made, the analyst asked whether the 360 is now profitable. They said "we are making progress on that".

As Mac Office was launched during that quarter, and Microsoft themselves stated that it was around 3x more successful as a launch than 2004, we can safely assume the profit made in that division was from the MacBU.

Perhaps the $6bn will be worth it in the future, but as of right now they haven't really made a penny on the Xbox. So you can't really say that the money is well worth it. Its sales have slowed down dramatically in recent months and the PS3 is outselling it every month in all markets except the US. And that doesn't even include the Wii sales...

Thats not to say the 360 isn't a good product. It is. Its the only console I own from this generation. And they have done a lot of great things with it. But doing so has cost them an obscene amount of money (relatively to what we have seen before in the console business).

[Syrus28]

It does when the MacBU is in that division.



http://bigtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/03/25/microsoft-looks-to-cash-in-on-the-iphone/

Fortune reckon $200 million a year from the Mac Business Unit (i.e. $50 million/quarter), it seems more than reasonable to me that they would do better than that in the quarter when the first Intel native version of Office for Mac was released ;).
Well then. Who are we supposed to believe?

The division brought in $614 million, a huge improvement over the loss of $746 million during the same time last year. Thats a increase of about $1.3 billion. Mac BU is estimated to bring in $350 million a year, so about $262 million in the 9 month period. Considering Office 08 launched, lets say $300 million. That still leaves about $1 billion in operating income unaccounted for. Im gonna go on a limb and say it wasn't the Zune or Windows Mobile devices, so...

There isn't a bunch of info for individual profits, but this does give us a perspective... The Xbox seems largely responsible for the growth of the division.

[BoyBach]

Whilst it undeniably looks a little rough around the edges, I'm quietly impressed.

I cant imagine using it for everyday use - achy arm syndrome! - but for quick manipulation of photos and so on, it looks promising.

[Eraserhead]

The division brought in $614 million, a huge improvement over the loss of $746 million during the same time last year.

Your talking about the year to date, and most of that was down to Halo 3 last year as I said in my first post. However that doesn't apply to the profit last quarter, which was clearly down to Mac Office. Project explains this well too.

Can we please put this to bed?

For all those that bash multi-touch what will you say when apple implements it because it has been quite obvious for some time that apple will in fact do so.

Competition is good.

I'm not convinced that multi-touch is the be all and end all. The piano showed it was useful for that.

However I think you'd get irritated by waving your hand around a larger screen though it would reduce RSI so I'm not sure I'm right overall...

but for quick manipulation of photos and so on, it looks promising.

True. But the MacBook Air does that now.

There is also the problem of the API for accessing this. Microsoft isn't great at getting people to use the "latest and greatest" API features in Vista as it is so I'm not convinced they'll really get it to take off...

[Project]

Well then. Who are we supposed to believe?

The division brought in $614 million, a huge improvement over the loss of $746 million during the same time last year. Thats a increase of about $1.3 billion. Mac BU is estimated to bring in $350 million a year, so about $262 million in the 9 month period. Considering Office 08 launched, lets say $300 million. That still leaves about $1 billion in operating income unaccounted for. Im gonna go on a limb and say it wasn't the Zune or Windows Mobile devices, so...

There isn't a bunch of info for individual profits, but this does give us a perspective... The Xbox seems largely responsible for the growth of the division.

Where are you getting your figures from?

These are the figures:


http://www.microsoft-watch.com/fy0802a.jpg

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/fy0802b.jpg

[Eraserhead]

^^ Microsoft's Q2 2008 is from October to December 2007, so it isn't the current quarter.

Apple's Q2 2008 is from January to March 2008, which is the latest reported quarter for Microsoft you need Q3 2008 figures ;).

[xUKHCx]

I'm not convinced that multi-touch is the be all and end all. The piano showed it was useful for that.

However I think you'd get irritated by waving your hand around a larger screen though it would reduce RSI so I'm not sure I'm right overall...



True. But the MacBook Air does that now.

There is also the problem of the API for accessing this. Microsoft isn't great at getting people to use the "latest and greatest" API features in Vista as it is so I'm not convinced they'll really get it to take off...


Granted it might not be the be all and end all however the arguments against Microsoft in regards to multitouch can surely be aimed at apple when they implement it.

It's not like apple releasing it will suddenly make all our fingers thinner for example (silly argument against multitouch anyway because the iPhone has already shown that people with fat fingers, i.e. me, can perfectly use the device).

I just find it odd that people are so ready to bash multi-touch when it is obvious that apple will release it and I am curious as to what those same people will think at the time. I take the view of don't knock it until you have tried it because I for one love multitouch on my iPhone and can't wait to see it implemented as such on a tablet like device (hopefully with scanning pixeld/document reader type display, dating back to the patents long long ago). Students dream.

[Project]

^^ Microsoft's Q2 2008 is from October to December 2007, so it isn't the current quarter.

Apple's Q2 2008 is from January to March 2008, which is the latest reported quarter for Microsoft you need Q3 2008 figures ;).

So what I posted was the Halo quarter? Got my dates wrong.

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/q0308a.jpg

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/q0308b.jpg

[Syrus28]

Perhaps the $6bn will be worth it in the future, but as of right now they haven't really made a penny on the Xbox. So you can't really say that the money is well worth it. Its sales have slowed down dramatically in recent months and the PS3 is outselling it every month in all markets except the US. And that doesn't even include the Wii sales...
Overall, not a penny. I am simply referring to the recent months of profit for the division, a first since the Xbox came out, as a sign for hope. Also, the Xbox name has brought Microsoft a new, fresher, look to younger people. I'd say that warrants $6 billion all by itself.

Thats not to say the 360 isn't a good product. It is. Its the only console I own from this generation. And they have done a lot of great things with it. But doing so has cost them an obscene amount of money (relatively to what we have seen before in the console business).
Not so. The PS3 division incurred a $2 Billion dollar loss last year alone. Link (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/32064/118/)



^^^^I got my figures from GameDaily (http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/xbox-division-posts-89-million-profit-in-q3-on-robust-demand-for-360/?biz=1)

[kap91]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm rehashing...

I really don't think anyone is going to want to use a touchscreen in this manner for a long period of time. You arms are going to get very tired holding them out in front of you for extended periods. This goes for both Apple and Microsoft. Multitouch on the screen is good for devices that you hold in you hand or arms. Once the device rests on a table then its just not good anymore. If we want multitouch on desktop computers and notebooks (which I do) the best option is to basicaly have what the Macbook Air has in terms of a multiouch trackpad. On laptops it would be built into the case and for desktops it would have to be in addition to a mouse or keyboard(preferably it would be a multitouch keyboard). Using a multitouch screen on anything but a handheld device is just not practically, the technology is but the physical placement of the arms and hands would just not be comfortable.

Also, while I commend Microsoft for advancing their technology I also think that they really should try their own approaches to technology-at least use different demos.

Just my thoughts.

[MrSmith]

Ditto about not reading the whole shebang, but what has Microsoft-vs-Apple got to do with anything? There's a still-new technology being produced, but since it's not by Apple then, well, "MS sucks". :rolleyes:

[dwd3885]

What's funny is if Apple had demoed the EXACT SAME THING, the majority of you would say this is the coolest thing ever, all positive ratings, etc. You know there is still jealousy, hatred towards Microsoft whenever they do something and it gets bad pub here. Doesn't make much sense to me. Fanboys, you all seem like

[Project]

Overall, not a penny. I am simply referring to the recent months of profit for the division, a first since the Xbox came out, as a sign for hope. Also, the Xbox name has brought Microsoft a new, fresher, look to younger people. I'd say that warrants $6 billion all by itself.


Not so. The PS3 division incurred a $2 Billion dollar loss last year alone. Link (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/32064/118/)



^^^^I got my figures from GameDaily (http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/xbox-division-posts-89-million-profit-in-q3-on-robust-demand-for-360/?biz=1)

It's a bit disingenuous to separate out the PS3 figures from the grand scheme of things for them. Sony had to ship expensive Blu-ray drives with the PS3 and in doing so it raised the production costs to record levels but singlehandedly won them the format war. That will be worth more to them than the $2bn lost last year. Sony will see a visible return on that investment last year when the royalties come in. And more importantly, they have publicly stated they will not be aggressively cutting the price point of the PS3 now that it is nearing profitability - yet they are outselling the 360 globally despite its own price cuts in the last year.

I don't think anybody believed Sony would be in this position 2 years ago so in a sense the $6bn+ loss of the Xbox project can be seen to be an important strategic move so far - yet there is little sign of MS capitalising on it yet. They are still being outsold by the Wii/PS3 right now, music/video sales remain a footnote when compared to iTunes and the Zune has gained little traction despite this increased consumer perception you speak of.