Mac OS X 10.6 to Debut at WWDC 2008? [Archive] - Page 2

Earendil

Jun 4, 2008, 09:42 AM

When Apple announced the move to Intel I think we all knew that the PowerPCs days were numbered.

I would imagine that it is quite a strain on developers (and Apple itself) to compile both PowerPC and x86 versions for the Apple platform. I see Adobe is the first software developer to create an App that only runs on Intel Macs -Adobe Soundbooth Beta (http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/soundboothcs4/) - and I'm sure we will see other developers following their lead in the coming months. Eventually one has to look at the bottom line and I think Apple would probably be better suited having it's developers and it's OS engineers concentrating on one binary.

You just brought up an interesting point, and not the one you think you did. Some high end developers, who's costumer base is the leading edge (Adobe software for example) will drop old computers first, it makes sense. But other Developers would be stupid to do so with the number if PPC computers out there. Remember the newest PPC isn't even 3 years old yet, and we all brag about how the life span of these machines is 3-5 years?

Anyway, as a developer who still has to, or wants to, develope for both, you makes things HARDER for them by ditching support in the newest OS. Now they will have to program in 10.5 on XCode2 for PPC support, AND in 10.6 XCode3 to get Intel support for 10.6.

There may be some ways around this, but you don't want to have to split the dev environment up.

Peace

Jun 4, 2008, 09:48 AM

As soon as Apple drops Carbon support that's when they will be Cocoa 64-bit Intel only.

And that's possible with 10.5.6

mgworek

Jun 4, 2008, 09:48 AM

arent the first gen intel machines (CoreDuo) only 32 bit as well.

I can see them going intel only with a new OS but not 64 bit only if the first intel machines are only 32 bit.

rols

Jun 4, 2008, 09:51 AM

I'm not sure why this is being viewed so negatively.

If this is to be believed (big IF) then this release is all about improved security and stability, rather than a slew of new features. I dunno, improved security and stability sounds okay to me.

I agree - and if it's security and stability that's a 10.5.x release. Remember we have to buy version number changes, and that's ok if there is real increased functionality in there. Security and stability comes under the heading of 'bugfixes' to me, and those should be free.

So if 10.6 is only fixes for leopard .. that's not really a new version worthy of the 10.6 moniker.

retroneo

Jun 4, 2008, 09:55 AM

IBM is far from dead in the PPC world. If the Power6 and Power7 work out as planned, it would make more sense for Apple to abandon the XEON chips and use the Powers in the Mac Pros.

Rosetta works both ways (not in Mac OS X however - see link below), so this is always a simple possibility if Intel falls behind. Intel may fall behind as AMD isn't competing as aggressively. I believe Apple doesn't want to be tied to Intel and will always keep its options open.

Its good programming practice to keep it portable. Apple also supports Mac OS X on ARM in the form of iPhone OS. ARM also has an impressive roadmap - a wide variety of vendors and great high performing multicore and low power offerings that beat Intel's Atom out of the water.

It's great that Apple has all these options for the future.

http://www.transitive.com/news/press_full/77

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 09:57 AM

Could you point me to some info on the upcoming PPC chips? If it is to be based on the POWER arch then you may be a little disappointed (think Cell).

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070521-ibms-power6-flies-the-coop-at-4-7ghz.html

TheSpaz

Jun 4, 2008, 09:58 AM

I'm glad I have an Intel Mac

chicagdan

Jun 4, 2008, 10:00 AM

I doubt they are going to release a paid version that is mostly security and stability.

If they were to do such a thing, it would be a horrible statement about Leopard ... okay, sorry folks, we didn't get it right the first time. Please pay us another $120 to get the secure, stable version ... and oh by the way, you PPC owners can go to hell.

AidenShaw

Jun 4, 2008, 10:05 AM

arent the first gen intel machines (CoreDuo) only 32 bit as well.

I can see them going intel only with a new OS but not 64 bit only if the first intel machines are only 32 bit.

There were relatively few x86 Apples sold - mainly to early adopters, many of which have already been replaced by x64 (Core 2) machines.

I do think that 10.6 is probably a bit early to drop PPC support, but I could see dropping both PPC and x86 in 10.7.

Peace

Jun 4, 2008, 10:14 AM

Apple really wants to be rid of the Altivec engine. What better way than to do Intel only.

Shackler

Jun 4, 2008, 10:15 AM

This seems 100% legit.
A landmark event in more ways then one.
it can't ONLy be about the iPhone.

electronboy

Jun 4, 2008, 10:21 AM

Unless there are compelling new features contained in 10.6. Large numbers of folks will NOT upgrade to a new operating system for security or performance reasons alone especially if it drops support for the large base of PowerPC equipment still installed, some of which is currently less than 3 years old.

If Apple is going to release a new operating system there WILL be new features. If they don't then its called a major patch or minor release. I suspect that there will be new features, but they are still under development and not yet ready to disclose them or not sure if they will make into the next OS. Example: Microsoft repeatedly eating crow after pulling WinFS from several releases. Along this note, I expect full support for ZFS volumes in 10.6 and Apple to begin its transition away from HFS+. Being able to write to NTFS w/o 3rd party apps would be nice too, but I'm not holding my breath.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 10:22 AM

Apple really wants to be rid of the Altivec engine.

Why? I'm genuinely curious.

Peace

Jun 4, 2008, 10:24 AM

Why?

Because it's PPC and Apple has really BIG plans for future video/audio in their O/S that don't fit into that picture.

Engineers really want to stop doing both PPC and Intel and concentrate on SSE4/5/6

And by doing Universal apps it's becoming bloated. Just look at the last point release 10.5.3. For some it was 500Mb.

If Apple is going to start "pushing" things they'd rather have it half the size.

pbkiller

Jun 4, 2008, 10:24 AM

I don't see it. Leopard is too new and needs some work, why rush out 10.6?

and no new features? Apple runs on it's Marketing dept most of the time.

Hmm, could be that 10.6 is a Fix up for Leopard? I mean smoothing out the details? More like the update from Panther to Tiger? Panther was an awesome OS, but then they released Tiger and it made it even better, the most stable Mac OS ever... At least for me it was. I bought my first iBook with Panther, and when i upgraded to Tiger, didn't notice any super major changes (not like in Leopard, for example, the finder, new dock, time machine, spaces, etc)

chadder007

Jun 4, 2008, 10:30 AM

If they were to do such a thing, it would be a horrible statement about Leopard ... okay, sorry folks, we didn't get it right the first time. Please pay us another $120 to get the secure, stable version ... and oh by the way, you PPC owners can go to hell.

Agreed, that will piss me off to no end if they do that.

vohdoun

Jun 4, 2008, 10:36 AM

I'm glad I have an Intel Mac

/me will keep that noted for the future

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 10:38 AM

Because it's PPC and Apple has really BIG plans for future video/audio in their O/S that don't fit into that picture.

Engineers really want to stop doing both PPC and Intel and concentrate on SSE4/5/6

They can just optimise for Intel (i.e. SSE) if they want and still provide a product for PPC users, and other software manufacturers can decide to drop PPC support like Adobe Soundbooth if they want.

Anyway by 10.7 it'll be November 2010, so that would be over 4 years since the first Intel Mac shipped so dropping it then wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes.

Personally I think the Universal applications are good as they add flexibility.

pbkiller

Jun 4, 2008, 10:40 AM

That site about PPC chips going to almost 5 Ghz its impressive, but in think Apple left the "Muscle Car Chips" for the new "Hybrid with most miles per gallon chips". They want Longer battery times, performance per watt, energy saver, smaller setups. They cant do that with PPC, at least not for the past couple of years.

Peace

Jun 4, 2008, 10:42 AM

They can just optimise for Intel (i.e. SSE) if they want and still provide a product for PPC users.

Anyway by 10.7 it'll be November 2010, so that would be over 4 years since the first Intel Mac shipped so dropping it then wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes.

Personally I think the Universal applications are good as they add flexibility.

"just optimizing for Intel" isn't as easy as it sounds. Engineers don't just flip a switch. During the transition from PPC to Intel that was a sticky widget that did indeed delay the Intel platform internally. From where I stood it was a last minute fix that got us to the Intel platform on time.

Literally.

agentsmithone

Jun 4, 2008, 10:43 AM

I think its likely OS X 10.6 could be named at WWDC but not much more. In the past this has been the case, such as with Leopard being named and it was left to another day to say more. Then eventually there was the 10 feature rundown quickly. It would be secure to say that it would be too soon to say another Apple OS is in the cards inside the next 6 months.

Maybe we'll see those Piles patented so long ago in 10.6.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 10:51 AM

"just optimizing for Intel" isn't as easy as it sounds. Engineers don't just flip a switch.

Sure, but you don't write SSE code from day one. You write normal code from day one, and then you optimise the bits that need it. I'd have thought you can mostly leave the original code in place for PPC users (and not add Altivec) and just add SSE for Intel users.

sunfast

Jun 4, 2008, 10:54 AM

Mac OSX LOLcat all the way :cool:

That's be awesome!

I can has input now? :)

SpinThis!

Jun 4, 2008, 10:57 AM

Since when has TUAW ever been a half reliable source? I call BS.

That said, there's some merit in dropping PPC support, though 10.6 is way too early. Maybe their tipster meant 10.6 will be the last OS to support PowerPC (not drop it)? I wouldn't put it past TUAW to screw up/embellish a detail like that...

morespce54

Jun 4, 2008, 10:58 AM

I really don't think they will release seeds yet.
To much people are still on Tiger, and a lot are still on PPC. So if 10.6 really drop the PPC and go Intel only, it *is* way too early to release seeds. Plus, 10.5.3 is still buggy for me (what's up with the blinking windows?)

10.6 will be really interesting 'tho... whenever it comes out... Which should be way before Win 7 anyways... ;)

Peace

Jun 4, 2008, 10:59 AM

Folks really need to start letting go of PPC. It's been 3 years now and besides PPC Macs can still run Leopard just like newer PeeCees can still run XP but M$ wants their major partners to start testing Windows 7.

Apple wants their developers to start testing OS X 10.6 which imho will include multi-touch and maybe ZFS if Apple can ever figure out how to keep it from running wild on it's own.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 11:05 AM

Folks really need to start letting go of PPC.

It'll go in its own sweet time, I see no need to make a big deal about it, that's all.

He'd be an idiot to drop it as the performance will slip if the target is a 1.6Ghz Intel Core Duo, which means it'll need a 2.0Ghz Core 2 Duo to run efficiently.

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 11:06 AM

Me personally I have a 32-bit Mac system.

I have no fears about Apple moving to 64-bit nor do I have fears about them jettisoning PPC support.

Why?

Because Leopard is a good OS and getting better everyday. But Apple's gotta cut bait. They have to get developers on Cocoa and x64.

If you have a Mac that's 3+ years old you have every right to ask for support from the latest OS but Apple's not obligated to support these demands.

When I buy my next Mac I want it optimized from hardware to software. Apple has got to deprecate PPC, 32-bit and Carbon now. If they don't do it now they have to try to make developers and consumers do this for 10.7 which appears likely to go head to head with Windows 7.

Look at the potential timeline people.

If Apple drops a 10.6 without PPC support native 32-bit support in Spring of 09 they can shoot for a late release of 10.7 in 2010 or early 2011.

Microsoft depended on developers to be ready for Vista and MANY dropped the ball which made Microsoft look bad. Apple better drop the hammer now and deal with the aftermath.

10.6 doesn't have to have a bunch of new features. Polish what's there and add more support for iPhone and whatever other devices Apple has planned. Those that don't want to go up to 10.6 can stay on Leopard and Apple can focus on making 10.7 a phenominal leap forward and the OS that everyone migrates to quickly (new hardware purchases :) )

Legacy =Baggage and baggage slows the platform down.

Luap

Jun 4, 2008, 11:11 AM

Its such a ridiculous 'news' story, that for all the difference it makes, it may as well be an april fools joke. I can't believe so many people take this seriously.

Amdahl

Jun 4, 2008, 11:11 AM

The clock speed of a cpu does not tell you how much "work" a processor can do in a given amount of time. I went from a p4 2.4ghz to a core 2.0ghz and got an increase in performance. Manufactures have shifted away from simply ramping up the clock speed to increase performance.

How nice. Welcome to Apple 1994.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 11:12 AM

They have to get developers on Cocoa and x64.

The thing is that 64 bit only brings benifits to a very small number of applications. Apple have already got a 64 bit OS on the hardware that can support it so within 3-4 years they can quietly drop 32 bit machines with no fuss, and they will still be years ahead of Microsoft (as Windows 7 will be 32 and 64 bit). Additionally 64 bit clean code will still compile/work on 32 bit systems.

They've already set the ship sailing towards Intel/64 bit and its not going back but there is no point it throwing those people overboard until they want to move on.

If developers want to move ahead of Apple they can, and no-one will stop them.

EDIT: The difference between the OS 9/OS X transition was that OS X wasn't clearly superior at the beginning, but they had to get people to move over.

EDIT 2: In fact if Apple trumpets 64 bit only they'll be doing Microsoft a favour as they are having real problems getting people to use 64 bit versions of their OS rather than 32 bit versions they are going to be either in real trouble if they try and push or that transition will be very very slow.

MacsRgr8

Jun 4, 2008, 11:15 AM

the a lot larger gap between Tiger and Leopard is because there were actually two versions of Tiger, PPC and Intel. so there was a lot more work to be done on Tiger than there was for Leopard and future OSs.

I don't think so.
As Steve has said, and as it really was clear all along ("Marklar", free Darwin for Intel, OPENSTEP..) Mac OS X has always had an Intel version. Nothing new about Leopard's or Tiger's x86-ness.
Also, Leopard wasn't the first UB OS. Mac OS X Server 10.4.7 had a Universal release.

And TBH... I am SURE Steve did say a few years back (maybe at one of the Tiger-related WWDCs) that Apple would slow down the release cycle of Mac OS X.... and now he says that Apple would "keep" it to 12-18 months...
In the case of Apple counting Tiger for Intel as a new release.... well, that's debatable IMHO.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 11:17 AM

In the case of Apple counting Tiger for Intel as a new release.... well, that's debatable IMHO.

They certainly spent a lot of time getting Tiger for Intel up to scratch, now it may have compiled before on Intel, but it wasn't releasable.

SpinThis!

Jun 4, 2008, 11:20 AM

Folks really need to start letting go of PPC. It's been 3 years now
3 years? Please get your facts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Macintosh#Timeline_of_Macintosh_models) straight before you post dates. Among those, the XServe G5 was released in late 2006 and many iMac models were still selling.

It's not just about dropping support or running the latest OS... a new Mac OS X version is a cashcow for Apple. A lot of people who can't afford a new Mac can afford a new OS. Especially for the XServe, Apple would love to sell you a version of 10.6 server.

In my experience, Apple usually supports 3 OS versions on a machine before they drop support. Especially with the XServe and iMac G5s, that would be a little premature to drop support for the latest OS.

I do think 10.6 will be the last version to support PPC though... with some PPC models not making the cut anyway.

i.mac

Jun 4, 2008, 11:22 AM

Agreed, that will piss me off to no end if they do that.

why? You always have the choice of not updating! get over it.

cannot understand folks that get upset about new updates on software and/or hardware. statements like this always remind me to ask: why not build bridges (visit Salamanca) and aqueducts (visit Segovia) the way Romans did thousands of years ago?

Peace

Jun 4, 2008, 11:24 AM

Please get your facts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Macintosh#Timeline_of_Macintosh_models) straight before you post dates. Among those, the XServe G5 was released in late 2006 and many iMac models were still selling.

Sorry I was referring to the switch from PPC OS to the Intel version not the hardware.

Just to clarify.

Amdahl

Jun 4, 2008, 11:27 AM

I hope you know freq. has nothing to do with work done in a clock cycle... thus making your answer senseless.

IBM G5 cpus still fast, but they are a dead technology as they are incapable to cope with sets of instructions that latest software needs

It's funny watching people try to use the same argument that was used in favor of PPC, against it.

ckurowic

Jun 4, 2008, 11:29 AM

Snap. I skipped 10.3 because there wasn't enough to justify the upgrade. Now I'm on 10.4 and feel the same about 10.5. Quick view would be nice but not essential, so I think I'll wait.

Theres more to 10.5 than just quicklook. I can't stand using 10.4 now that I'm on 10.5

vassillios

Jun 4, 2008, 11:32 AM

so....why all the negative comments? Why is everybody acting like it's a surprise that a new version of OS X MAY be coming out in January, especially when Mr. Jobs said this (more frequent releases) would be the norm in the future.

rockdog

Jun 4, 2008, 11:44 AM

137489

Jun 4, 2008, 11:52 AM

I am not quite sure why so many people are hyperventilating here. Someone merely speculated that maybe PowerPCs would no longer be supported in the new OS.

For all anyone knows the old processors might be supported in the next two versions of OS X.

I also don't understand why some say its too soon for another version simply because they just got Leopard. You don't have to buy each and every version. Many individuals and companies only buy every other version of many software suites & OS's and get along just fine.

Only my humble opinion

I worked for a company that was running 1970's main fraim software, 2004 macromedia software (or whatever year Cold Fusion was before Studio MX - they had not upgraded to MX), and Windows 98, 2000, or NT4 on some machines. Updates or trying to implement software to these was a pain (oh yea, they also ran office 97 - so our docs were not even compatible) Since they could not get suuport - they hired people (also a pain as the people they hired only worked with the latest versions, they never told the applicant they were several years behind and that was what they were going to support)....

viniciusc

Jun 4, 2008, 11:52 AM

Until this rumor, I didn't even think OS 10.6 could be announced at WWDC. It is just awful, not impossible, but... Really really doubtful.

Consultant

Jun 4, 2008, 11:56 AM

Lol. It's impossible. 10.5 is only .3, thus they are not going to have 10.6 as developer release any time soon.

The Internet made too many people gullible.

JoeDMD

Jun 4, 2008, 12:00 PM

Microsoft just showed off some new features of Windows 7.
It could be the purpose of this rumor, or even an early seed, is to demostrate that Apple is going to stay on top.

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 12:02 PM

Until this rumor, I didn't even think OS 10.6 could be announced at WWDC. It is just awful, not impossible, but... Really really doubtful.

Why? I'm really nonplussed about why so many of you think it's some sort of improbability or impossibility for 10.6 to be announced at WWDC or even a Developer Preview.

Go look at the WWDC schedule. Note the the Presidio is the largest room and the Conference kicks off the the State of the Union addresses in the Presidio and then it's pretty much a clean sweep for iPhone courses.

Then note there there are 19..count'em 19 "To Be Announced" sessions.

Something's coming folks. Many developers already have the iphone SDK so they have a good inkling about the features.

Considering there are so many TBA sessios it's certainly plausible that Apple outlines a strategy for 10.6 and generates a roadmap. This "is" a Developers conference.

Leopard was late folks and while this probably delayed 10.6 some the two OS are developed concurrently.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 12:07 PM

Lol. It's impossible. 10.5 is only .3, thus they are not going to have 10.6 as developer release any time soon.

The Internet made too many people gullible.

While I don't believe this article 100% Steve Jobs has said 10.6 is due 12-18 months after Leopard so the dates make sense. We'll know for sure in a week anyway.

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 12:08 PM

Lol. It's impossible. 10.5 is only .3, thus they are not going to have 10.6 as developer release any time soon.

The Internet made too many people gullible.

This makes absolutely no sense. It's like you haven't even read the thread. If Apple delivers a rough draft of 10.6 next week the plan would be go GM by years end and deliver a Final Candidate or release at WWDC. By then Leopard would most likely be at 10.4.6 or higher.

Now I realize that dropping PPC support or moving to 64-bit only is a bit of a stretch that would require some savvy explanation by Apple but had Leopard shipped in June/July like it was supposed to Jan 09 would be roughly 16 months from the originally planned update. A typical upgrade cycle for OS X save for the extended Leopard cycle.

Nothing impossible at all about it.

TheSpaz

Jun 4, 2008, 12:09 PM

I don't care how many "new features" they put in the OS, but if the new features don't work or make the OS unstable and buggy... I don't think it's worth it. I really hope 10.6 is just a more refined 10.5 and not a whole new OS with a bunch of features... I mean, how many more features can they cram into a beautiful OS without making it slow or bloated?

TheSpaz

Jun 4, 2008, 12:10 PM

By then Leopard would most likely be at 10.4.6 or higher.

I hope it's way higher than 10.4.6 ;)

HailToTheVictor

Jun 4, 2008, 12:11 PM

12-18 months is what was stated when Leopard was released. January '09 is right in the middle of that time frame. 10.6 will drop at MWSF

volk

Jun 4, 2008, 12:14 PM

Maybe it's not a new desktop OS...maybe it is a preview of a completely new version of Mac OS X for a new line of portable devices? That would make a lot of sense, especially with the rumors of an impending tablet device.

HailToTheVictor

Jun 4, 2008, 12:16 PM

This makes absolutely no sense. It's like you haven't even read the thread. If Apple delivers a rough draft of 10.6 next week the plan would be go GM by years end and deliver a Final Candidate or release at WWDC. By then Leopard would most likely be at 10.4.6 or higher.

Hopefully Apple does not wait 6 months to release 10.6 after they have a GM :D

Peace

Jun 4, 2008, 12:17 PM

What's really going to be great is when Jobs stands up there and looks at his cards like he does.

D4F

Jun 4, 2008, 12:22 PM

I just wonder what will happen with 3rd party apps compatibility.

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 12:28 PM

Hopefully Apple does not wait 6 months to release 10.6 after they have a GM :D

LOL :D Brain said "type MWSF" fingers said "FU I'm typing WWDC"

sigh.

stoutboy1

Jun 4, 2008, 12:30 PM

10.6 will add security and stability with no new features? I thought that's what all the intermediate 10.5.(Something) steps were for. Are they going to come out and say we've fixed the security and bugs in leopard and if you'd like that send us another $129 dollars. That would make leopard $260... Sounds a little like Microsoft pricing.

surferfromuk

Jun 4, 2008, 12:43 PM

What a lot of bitching and moaning.

I think it's fantastic news and I will be well thrilled if it's true...

...more gorgeous Apple magic coming our way. Who knows what they have up there sleeve - and who knows what they *left* out of the Leopard update to carry over into 10.6!

...another swift kick to the microsoft gonads- this very likely means there will be ANOTHER OSX version releasing when Windows 7 get's released (End of 2010 I reckon!) - and that will be 10.7 no less!!

...Apple into top gear and flying along merrily...

What's to get upset about ?

Leopard was fixing the foundations to the house of OSX and now here comes the extensions, the swimming pool and the jacussi's!!

PPC - anyone know how old the last PPC computer will be by June 2009 ( which will realistically be when it's released) and really, if it's getting on for 4 years is it truly unreasonable to drop it ? Do we REALLY want Apple to get hampered by backwards support the way Microsoft have ? Let's face it anyone on a 4 year old PPC will be getting a seriously major update when they go intel and 10.6 in the latter half of 2009...

Chris Bangle

Jun 4, 2008, 12:45 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/06/07/photos-of-wwdc-2007-banners-at-moscone-west/

BANNERS TOMMAROW? Thursday, keynote Monday,, same format as last year????

skellener

Jun 4, 2008, 12:51 PM

The timing is perfect. Announcement that OS X 10.6 is in the works and a quick look at some of the new features - probably resolution independence as one of the biggies - so Apple needs to get the developers rolling on this to ensure that their apps will work (Apple have been telling developers to work towards this for the past two releases). New file system may be ready to roll (I was glad they didn't try to rush that into 10.5). Lots of enhancements to other features.

Apple need to get 10.6 into the hands of developers within the next few months if they are to be in a position to ship it around April/May next year. In other words by the time the next dev conference comes around OS X 10.6 will be shipping. Agree 100%

Fuchal

Jun 4, 2008, 12:51 PM

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 12:53 PM

PPC - anyone know how old the last PPC computer will be by June 2009 ( which will realistically be when it's released)

Less than 3 years. And its a PowerMac, they usually get 6 years of support.

moving back to XP and complaining about Vista's security and stability.

Vista has perfectly good security and stability.

MShock

Jun 4, 2008, 12:57 PM

this would seem more likely to release something major in a year, compared to 6 months. That would be about 4-6 months ahead of schedule for Apple. I could definitely see 10.6 features being previewed and a developer release. This would probably be needed for the transition away from HFS+ to ZFS. Plus zfs still has a long way to go, they are only on build 117 and do not have every bug worked out. Plus Apple has had to redesign the Finder, Spotlight, Time Machine, etc. just to name a few features, for zfs. I could see a tarball update for zfs in 10.5 if someone was really smart, after WWDC.

TwinCities Dan

Jun 4, 2008, 01:03 PM

The Graphics bug in 10.5.3 (although I haven't updated yet because of another bug in Disk Utility just refusing to partition my HDD), and the bug where Airport keeps dropping the WiFi connection and sometimes can't connect at all on my school network (especially when I need it to the most dammit).

Sebastian

I don't know if the Airport problem is Apple's fault, perhaps you are getting some interference or something. I have had a Airport network in my home for years and I NEVER drop connections, I really don't understand why people are having trouble, I think the software is solid.

kap91

Jun 4, 2008, 01:11 PM

However, if I'm honest, after five years working on the G4 MDD, it's showing it's age. ...I'm frankly stunned that this PPC Mac has held it's own so long.

The thing that is making me a little mad if this rumor is true is not this though. My iMac Core Duo isn't really showing its age. It's not the fastest computer anymore but it still handles practically everything fine. It's the fact that the late G5's and specifically the Intel Core Duo support would also be dropped. I don't think this is exactly fair. If this rumor is true I would have only had my iMac Core Duo for about 2 1/2 years before I won't be able to update to the new operating system or any software that comes out for it later. I don't think that this is right.

I understand that Apple has to do what is best for Apple but I do not agree with it. Intel support (even if it is only 32 bit) should not be dropped at least until 10.7. I can see support for PPC G4's possibly being dropped but G5's and Intel are still perfectly capable machines that surely could run whatever new features are developed for 10.6. It's not like this will affect Apple's decision but I can hope can't I?

Just my $0.02

TheSpaz

Jun 4, 2008, 01:13 PM

I don't know if the Airport problem is Apple's fault, perhaps you are getting some interference or something. I have had a Airport network in my home for years and I NEVER drop connections, I really don't understand why people are having trouble, I think the software is solid.

I had interference for a little while, then I switched channels and all is fine now. Also, maybe Belkin and those other companies need to update their drivers for Apple's new OS.

MacsRgr8

Jun 4, 2008, 01:13 PM

They certainly spent a lot of time getting Tiger for Intel up to scratch, now it may have compiled before on Intel, but it wasn't releasable.

There was nothing non-releasable about the Tiger versions which were made available for the Developer's "Intel-Power Mac" (and some folks made bootable on generic PC's)
The first release was 10.4.1, and ran without any problems. It was not until the first MacBook Pro was in the stores that the Intel version of Tiger was publicly available, of course.
The developer release was purely intended for software developers to test their apps on x86 / Universal.
Nothing "beta" about the OS.

ert3

Jun 4, 2008, 01:14 PM

i dont know about releasing developer seeds but im thinking that Apple MAY, at the most, show features… way too early to release seeds.

(woohoo! my first page 1 first post!)

They once deleted me for that and I agree.

This seems a bit to convient to be true.

Also it seems a bit out of place that the new version of OSX lack features entirely new and is just some sort of patch.

like 10.6 Lynx.

Well we added linux libs now so guess what you can actually run more linux specific apps like compiz fusion or something

Kwill

Jun 4, 2008, 01:18 PM

NO WAY. This is so far out there....nope. Sorry.
:apple:

I heard that. Though I don't encourage bloatware, Apple has already nurtured a self-imposed 300-new-features standard to justify the value of upgrades. A release focussing purely on security and stability is a free update.

milo

Jun 4, 2008, 01:29 PM

I think it is too soon (and I really doubt this rumor is legit, I guess we'll find out next week), unless it includes some absolutely groundbreaking new features. I'd be perfectly happy to see apple just add things to 10.5 and keep fixing bugs. I don't ever want to see a release like Leopard again, ignore the calendar and don't ship 10.6.0 until it is at least as stable and bug free as 10.5.3 (or .4!).

I remember what Jobs said, and at the time I hoped what he was saying wouldn't actually happen. It takes time to settle into a major upgrade. I'd much rather see 24+ months for the sake of upgrade turmoil and $$$.

And they'll get some ugly backlash if they dump PPC, especially since the quad G5 is still a competitive machine. Same goes for 32 bit intel, that screws all the early adopters (the mini was still 32 bit not that long ago, right?). Not upgrading isn't much of an option when the latest versions of apps require the latest versions of the OS.

I'm also very curious about how much 10.6 will push developers toward cocoa and 64 bit code. I'm skeptical that they will push very hard since most apple apps are still carbon and they don't seem to be in any hurry to update. Just today I read the head of Logic development has said publicly that they NEVER plan to update the whole app to 64 bit, it's not worth the trouble.

Vista has perfectly good security and stability.

That may be...but it sure looks like it has pretty poor performance compared with XP.

guzhogi

Jun 4, 2008, 01:37 PM

If they indeed make it Intel-only and 64-bit only then that should reduce the size and speed it up quite a bit.

(It would speed it up because the kernel can be recompiled to use the extra registers of Intel's 64-bit architecture)

Core 2 Duos are 64-bit? I remember hearing they were, but on the other hand, I bought Windows Vista (for games) and tried installing the 64-bit version on my C2D MBP, but it didn't want to. I'm stuck w/ the 32-bit version.

I could see a new OS release sometime in 09. What I can't see is dropping the support for PowerPC, that doesn't really make sense.

Nothing wrong with Universal Binaries, and now that we are Intel (and that they had x86 support for a while), what sense does it make to not openly support PowerPC?

I remember in earlier threads about 10.6 dropping PowerPC support, many people were mad b/c Power Mac G5s are way more powerful than Mac Minis, the first MacBooks, etc. While a valid point, I get the feeling they don't understand the difficulty of supporting both platforms. I know, Apple has had an Intel version of Mac OS X since the beginning, but going to just Intel (and whatever the Iphone/iPod Touch & Apple TV run) would make development a lot easier. Developers wouldn't have to spend so much time optimizing their apps/OS for 2 platforms, they'd just have 1. This means we could see either Apple taking the same amount of time between major OS versions (ie 10.5 & 10.6) and add more features or have the same amount of new features, but deliver it quicker. Plus, a lot less bugs, hopefully!

I heard that. Though I don't encourage bloatware, Apple has already nurtured a self-imposed 300-new-features standard to justify the value of upgrades. A release focussing purely on security and stability is a free update.

I agree. Security/stability should be free upDATES. UpGRADES should be to add features. Plus, the 300 feature thing is kinda stupid. I remember hearing that in 10.4 (or whatever one it was which introduced dashboard widgets), each widget was a "new feature". That's kinda low. If I had my way, Dashboard would be one feature, while the widgets would just be a part of that 1, not additional ones.

Sky Blue

Jun 4, 2008, 01:38 PM

Snow Leopard?

The next version of Mac OS X is code-named "Snow Leopard," and will indeed be Intel-only, we have learned. This info is hot on the heels of TUAW's original scoop about Mac OS X 10.6 being readied for shipment as soon as Macworld 2009 and being Intel-only.

People familiar with the situation has confirmed to us that TUAW's details are true—Snow Leopard is currently on track to come out during next January's Macworld, and it will not contain major OS changes. Instead, the release is heavily focused on performance and nailing down speed and stability. With Apple's current (and future) focus on smaller, thinner, and more mobile devices, this move makes perfect sense. Things like the MacBook Air, iPhone, iPod touch, and other mysterious devices that have yet to be announced need better performance for better battery life, and that's definitely something Apple wants to excel at in the years to come. Our sources did not note whether Apple planned to discuss Snow Leopard at this year's WWDC.

Something else that may happen is that Apple may eventually wrap everything in Cocoa—things that are currently only Carbon accessible will be no longer. This (which is reportedly not yet in stone) should make many Objective-C programmers happy, although those who are married to Carbon may get a bit bristly at the news. Of course, it seems like 10.6 is all about making graybeards bristly, as PowerPC users will soon be left out in the cold too.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/06/04/mac-os-x-10-6-code-named-snow-leopard-may-be-pure-cocoa

Zygon Gambit

Jun 4, 2008, 01:41 PM

If the new release is to be called 'Snow Leopard' it's clearly a part-upgrade, rather than a full new release. I would expect it to be priced accordingly.

It won't be a full release price, but neither will it be free. And, of course, it will be optional.

Tallest Skil

Jun 4, 2008, 01:41 PM

Snow Leopard?

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/06/04/mac-os-x-10-6-code-named-snow-leopard-may-be-pure-cocoa

Let me go against my normal penchant for writing things out...

ROFL. Yeah, freakin', right.

SheriffParker

Jun 4, 2008, 01:45 PM

Bull, all G5s and many later G4s are still quite capable machines. My Dual 1.8 is far from 'outdated' and is still a good performer in Leopard.

Dropping all PPC support would be just plain dumb. I'm not made of money and can't afford to buy a Intel desktop Mac and my needs both professionally and recreationally require a Mac Pro. iMac isn't an option for me.

My G5 as well as others are still perfectly fine at running OS X, especially the higher end ones with high end video cards.

Whatever, your dual 1.8 Ghz G5 is a snail. Even the slowest iMac would blow it out of the water, and they only cost 1200.

Peace

Jun 4, 2008, 01:45 PM

I can see Snow Leopard.

We would have Leopard which is for Universal type Mac's ( PPC and Core duo ) then we would have Snow Leopard. Designed for 64-bit Intel only with no carbon. Only Cocoa.

This would please both sides of the aisle.

diamond.g

Jun 4, 2008, 01:47 PM

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070521-ibms-power6-flies-the-coop-at-4-7ghz.html

Ah, okay. Well POWER 6 is not OOE. Wiki claims that IBM claims that not being OOE isn't a problem, but code will have to be rewritten to take advantage of in order execution. At that point Apple could look at Cell instead...
:D

morespce54

Jun 4, 2008, 01:50 PM

Its not too soon. Sure if 10.6 was to be released this year, but its not. Leopard was talked about at WWDC in 2006 and then 2007 and then released late 2007. So if Apple talks about 10.6 now, that makes sense. Then they can talk about it again in 2009 and release it.

Sure, they're already working on it. And probably on 10.7 as well since a some features won't be ready (technologically speaking) to roll into 10.6. Heck, some are probably already working on OS-post-X...
But there is such a leap between thinking/creating and developing the software that they certainly may show some "rough" features but can't possibly seed it to developers in June 08...

Or that means they already spent more time working on 10.6 then they did on 10.5... ;)

MacsRgr8

Jun 4, 2008, 01:51 PM

Whatever, your dual 1.8 Ghz G5 is a snail. Even the slowest iMac would blow it out of the water, and they only cost 1200.

Agreed the newest slowest iMac will blow this G5 away... if the app is UB ;)
But a Quad G5 with GeForce 7800 GT is no way a snail. If all 4 cores are used, I bet the Quad G5 blows the newest iMac away.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 01:53 PM

Let me go against my normal penchant for writing things out...

ROFL. Yeah, freakin', right.

Totally, there is no way in a million years it'll be called Snow Leopard.

This is the most implausible of today's Mac OS X rumours.

Scrapping PPC, OK but not great, pushing the boat out more than I'd like but still.
Scrapping Intel 32, a poor move, a bit like dropping the floppy disk in 1995.
Scrapping Carbon completely, Apple's giving up and handing the money back to the shareholders.

And of the names Snow Leopard that's the worst software name ever, especially when they've already got an OS called Leopard.

Tallest Skil

Jun 4, 2008, 01:54 PM

Totally, there is no way in a million years it'll be called Snow Leopard.

And now it's its own thread... and growing fast... Well, some people didn't think it would be called the "Air"...

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 01:56 PM

And now it's its own thread... and growing fast... Well, some people didn't think it would be called the "Air"...

The Air is at least a reasonable name. And it isn't a customer support nightmare.

Q: What OS are you running?
A: Leopard
Q: Just Leopard or Snow Leopard?
A: I dunno...

AndyHogan

Jun 4, 2008, 02:00 PM

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be somewhat of a preview of 10.6 at the WWDC. EVERY WWDC in recent history has introduced some aspect of the next OS. At the WWDC 2003 we saw a preview to Panther only 10 months after the Jaguar Release. At the WWDC 2004 we saw a preview of Tiger only 8 months after the Panther Release. And of course at the WWDC 2005 we saw an intro to Leopard A WHOLE 2 MONTHS AFTER THE RELEASE OF TIGER. We WILL see a preview of 10.6 there is no question about that. The question is how much will we see and when will it be released.

seashellz

Jun 4, 2008, 02:09 PM

10.7......'Hello Kitty' :eek:

TheSpaz

Jun 4, 2008, 02:15 PM

The Air is at least a reasonable name. And it isn't a customer support nightmare.

Q: What OS are you running?
A: Leopard
Q: Just Leopard or Snow Leopard?
A: I dunno...

Hahahahahahahahaha! That made me laugh!

This is what happens to me currently:
Q: What OS are you running?
A: Mac OS Ecks
Q: What version?
A: I dunno...

Actually, it's more like this:
Q: Whatcha got there?
A: iMac
Q: What OS are you running?
A: I dunno...
Q: How fast is it?
A: I dunno...
Q: How much RAM?
A: I dunno...
Q: What video card?
A: 17 Inch?

....oh brother.

surferfromuk

Jun 4, 2008, 02:22 PM

Why is everyone with a PPC freaking out like there computers are suddenly useless ? - do they not currently run Leopard nicely ? Are they not as great today as they were yesterday....so you may not be able to run ALL the operating systems in the future that are ever released - that's hardly a surprise is it ?

If Apple announced that my current Macbook Pro not to be able to run OSX 10.8 in 2012 I'd be thinking that it's definitely time to be getting a new mac...

tirerim

Jun 4, 2008, 02:32 PM

EDIT: What MAJOR app that is available on Windows, isn't available on OS X?

Internet Explorer. :-P

(Actually, I'm serious. As a web developer, it's a pain to have to start up my crappy Dell everytime I need to check how something looks in IE. I tried VirtualPC on my G5, and it was slow as molasses. Having an Intel Mac will be very handy when I finally get one... which may still not be for a while yet, since for every other purpose my existing machines work fine.)

There are also probably a bunch of popular games, though I don't play them.

The main thing, though, is that Apple is getting a lot of switchers because they've heard that they can run Windows on their Macs, so they know that they can keep using their old software if they need to. With Apple's marketing philosophy, there's no way they would make their product lineup more complicated than they had to by forcing people to choose between two different architectures, only one of which could also run Windows.

As for dropping PowerPC support, I don't think it will happen until 10.7. When Apple switched from 68k to PPC, it was over four and a half years from the first PPC-supporting OS (7.1.2 in March 1994) to the first non-68k-supporting OS (8.5 in October 1998). The first Intel-supporting OS was only 10.4.4 in January 2006, so assuming they stick to Jobs' putative release schedule, 10.7 would come out sometime mid-2010, and it would be reasonable to drop PPC support then.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a preview of 10.6 at WWDC. Again, if they stick to the schedule the actual release would be first half of 2009, and they generally offer previews of major features long in advance of actual releases (and I guarantee that there will be major features -- that is, after all, how Apple sells people new OSes). Not sure how far in advance they start handing out developer betas, though.

TheSpaz

Jun 4, 2008, 02:39 PM

Internet Explorer. :-P

(Actually, I'm serious. As a web developer, it's a pain to have to start up my crappy Dell everytime I need to check how something looks in IE. I tried VirtualPC on my G5, and it was slow as molasses. Having an Intel Mac will be very handy when I finally get one... which may still not be for a while yet, since for every other purpose my existing machines work fine.)

There are also probably a bunch of popular games, though I don't play them.

The main thing, though, is that Apple is getting a lot of switchers because they've heard that they can run Windows on their Macs, so they know that they can keep using their old software if they need to. With Apple's marketing philosophy, there's no way they would make their product lineup more complicated than they had to by forcing people to choose between two different architectures, only one of which could also run Windows.

As for dropping PowerPC support, I don't think it will happen until 10.7. When Apple switched from 68k to PPC, it was over four and a half years from the first PPC-supporting OS (7.1.2 in March 1994) to the first non-68k-supporting OS (8.5 in October 1998). The first Intel-supporting OS was only 10.4.4 in January 2006, so assuming they stick to Jobs' putative release schedule, 10.7 would come out sometime mid-2010, and it would be reasonable to drop PPC support then.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a preview of 10.6 at WWDC. Again, if they stick to the schedule the actual release would be first half of 2009, and they generally offer previews of major features long in advance of actual releases (and I guarantee that there will be major features -- that is, after all, how Apple sells people new OSes). Not sure how far in advance they start handing out developer betas, though.

Safari has a mode called "Developer Mode" and you can render your site in a variety of browser engines and I believe there are a few IE options (IE 7, IE 6, IE 5.5, IE 5.2.3). So why do you have to boot up your Dell? I could be wrong though... I mean, I'm not perfect :)

milo

Jun 4, 2008, 02:41 PM

Why is everyone with a PPC freaking out like there computers are suddenly useless ? - do they not currently run Leopard nicely ? Are they not as great today as they were yesterday....so you may not be able to run ALL the operating systems in the future that are ever released - that's hardly a surprise is it ?

They will keep running leopard, but app updates will require the latest OS. Part of the issue is that if they drop PPC support this soon, it means a much shorter cycle of support for those machines than apple historically does. Everybody expects their machine to be obsolete eventually - it usually isn't this fast for a mac.

socamx

Jun 4, 2008, 04:29 PM

Whatever, your dual 1.8 Ghz G5 is a snail. Even the slowest iMac would blow it out of the water, and they only cost 1200.

You and other people just don't get it.

I like being able to replace my own parts. My G5 I can open up, replace anything I want in it and be good to go. No need to send it out to Apple or a repair center.

My G5 may not have mind-blowing 3D game performance but it is still a great photoshop and video editing machine. It is no snail and you are seriously out of touch if you think it is.

The iMac isn't a good machine for me and I don't feel I have to go into detail listing why, but here's a good one... I don't like LCD screens and the restricted resolution of them.

Any desktop G5 with a good video card can handle anything Leopard does, so if there are no significant updates to 10.6 then why drop PPC support? Universal binaries work great.

And yes, I know I'm not the voice of everyone but I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people just like me.

TheSpaz

Jun 4, 2008, 05:23 PM

2. Why on earth would Apple drop the 10.X before 10.9? That makes no sense. Although they are running out of big cat names. Somehow OS 10.9 Domesticated Housecat doesn't seem to appeal so much.

I don't even remember an OS 8.7, 8.8, or 8.9 before they jumped to 9.0. So your logic doesn't make sense. Also, I don't think there was a 7.7, 7.8 or 7.9 either... they stopped at 7.6.1 didn't they?

SFauconnier

Jun 4, 2008, 05:53 PM

The only reasonable scenario I can think of (IF this is true) is that we'll have 2 leopards living right next to each other untill Cugar or whatever comes out.
One would be Snow Leopard, the other just Leopard. Living next to each other and each getting semi-same updates.
Snow Leopard would then be intel only and well.. (maybe as a direct result, I don't know) more stable and secure.
The normal leopard would be multi-platform (PPC) but still receive the same updates.

And with pricing? I wouldn't have a clue..
Maybe that current Leopard users would get a discount or maybe even "free" (though unlikely, there must have gone lotsa working hours into this).

This is, of course, taking into account they'll release it ~ january.
If they release it ~december 2009, then it might be a different story.

But if it's planned for January and if it's just "security, stability and intell-only" stuff, I highly doubt they'll call it OS 10.7 nor that it'll replace the current Leopard.

Quillz

Jun 4, 2008, 06:19 PM

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

Apple announces their plan to release their new OS touting security and stability as the main features right in the midst of the PC world calling feature-creeped Vista a failure, moving back to XP and complaining about Vista's security and stability.

Who wouldn't switch?
Except Vista isn't a failure, and an extremely vocal minority of PC users are the only ones who are even doing such a stupid thing like downgrading to XP. It's about as dumb as downgrading from Leopard to Tiger.

TwinCities Dan

Jun 4, 2008, 06:20 PM

Whenever the next OS X comes out Apple had better re-vamp the GUI - like get rid of the stupid rounded, bubbly, blue, shadowed scroll bars and button elements, etc. These UI elements are so GAY :mad:

I dunno, I like 'em. (No, that doesn't mean I like men) :rolleyes:

SpinThis!

Jun 4, 2008, 08:16 PM

I call BS again.

I doubt Apple can kill off Carbon, at least not now. Final Cut, Logic, and Apple's other pro applications are still Carbon. Apple wouldn't do that unless they have shipping versions of those applications ready to roll. But as far as I can tell, that's a huge undertaking—basically they're still in the same boat as Adobe in that respect. And there's still G5 towers and XServes that would love to run the latest FCP. Apple's losing a sale there, especially if some can justify the software purchase but not new hardware yet.

SpinThis!

Jun 4, 2008, 08:31 PM

Safari has a mode called "Developer Mode" and you can render your site in a variety of browser engines
haha, that's funny... Apple ported over the rendering engine of Microsoft just so developers can test their applications in it! Sorry, not a chance!

Actually, all the develop menu does is change the User Agent string of the web browser. This lets you tell sites you're "using" IE but it won't actually render like IE—doing this can sometimes let you into websites who are still (stupidly) browser sniffing where you normally might get shut out. But, it can also be useful for developing web pages for the iPhone or seeing if your favorite sites have iPhone versions (for example, Facebook).

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 08:42 PM

Any desktop G5 with a good video card can handle anything Leopard does, so if there are no significant updates to 10.6 then why drop PPC support? Universal binaries work great.

And yes, I know I'm not the voice of everyone but I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people just like me.

Because Universal Binaries work great because they're tested before they ship. It's similar to developing a webpage. It'd be great if you could just target one browswer but since there are a plethora of browsers you have to target more. The testing is what brings the tedium. Same thing with UB. You have to test the Intel version and then test the PPC version. No one would say a high end G5 isn't a good performer but with each quartert that goes by the PPC machines lose more and more marketshare and developers are eager to jettison that second step of QA testing.

I call BS again.

I doubt Apple can kill off Carbon, at least not now. Final Cut, Logic, and Apple's other pro applications are still Carbon. Apple wouldn't do that unless they have shipping versions of those applications ready to roll. But as far as I can tell, that's a huge undertaking—basically they're still in the same boat as Adobe in that respect. And there's still G5 towers and XServes that would love to run the latest FCP. Apple's losing a sale there, especially if some can justify the software purchase but not new hardware yet.

Nope Carbon can't be killed off...Apple will wean developers off it slowly. Final Cut Studio is likely not going to ship this year so I expect that next year we will see a Cocoa FCS, Aperture, Logic Studio and more. Luckily even when Apple delivers a 10.6 it's not likely to have changes so drastic that there are a bunch of 10.6 only applications. Those G5 Powermacs and Xserve will continue to run Leopard like a champ.

AidenShaw

Jun 4, 2008, 10:37 PM

Nope Carbon can't be killed off...Apple will wean developers off it slowly.

If you have a 64-bit app, it seems to be that "killed" is the appropriate description.

Anyway, Apple needs to kill x86 completely.

Nevermind the people who were silly enough to buy Yonahs when Meroms were already sampling. Just kill x86. Now.

(If you look through the archives, I've always questioned why Apple used Yonah for a few systems - when Merom was out just a couple of months later. It's time for the "hindsight is always 20-20" cliché....)

heisetax

Jun 4, 2008, 11:41 PM

i wish they would come out with a new OS.. like 11.xx.... i mean i love apple and everything they do i just think its time to revamp the whole thing.... Isnt it way to early for a new OS?? whatever i know apple will do it right.. looking forward to it!! :):apple::apple:

it just seems that way as for many, I'm included in that group have found that Mac OS 10.5 is not ready for prime time My average time to freeze or crash on my Intel Mac Pro is about 15 minutes. And that may be an overstatement because of themany times it doesn't even make it through the boot process. Mac OS 10.4.11 can run for days without a probllem.

Many people will be skipping Mac OS 10.5. Those will be the lucky ones as Apple will be charging their normal price (upgrade price only) as they are calling what should be something like Mac OS 10.5.8 or 10.5.9 update. Or maybe they just want a new name to cover their lack of quality, speed & stability. They seem to be copying MS Windows in more ways these days & this is just another of those ways.

Mac OS 10.0 was like Vistat, ahead of its software & support. 10.1 was beter, but still not there for those with mainly OS 9 software. After some early FW problems were solved 10.2 won me over as most of my needed software was OS X compatible. OS 10.3 was good from the start, great by time it ended at 10.3.9. OS 10.4 followed with a good, stable, fast & useful time with Mac OS 10.4.11 the best that Apple has done. Then something has happened. Mac OS 10.5 is no better at its present 10.5.3 than at 10.5.0. At the rate that things are getting better & Apple's statment that there will be little new iwth just speed, stability & security increases. That's what I thought we were to get when Apple went from 10.5 to 10.5.1 to 10.5.2 to 10.5.3 & on down the line until the release of what sounds like a point upgrade comes & is called Mac OS 10.6, Snow Leopard. Does that mean that 10.5 was the snow job or that 10.6 continues the snow job.

Just like most people question whether MS Office 2007 & 2008 are upgrades or just another new, poor quality product from MS. Vista is like Mac OS 10.0 new & not ready for use. I g¨´ss Steve Jobs saw how much software MS could sell with its questionable quality, so he seems to have had Apple follow MS's lead in this area with the introduction of Mac OS 10.5 Leopard.

I've always purchased Apple's systems updates the first day they come out. I then install them on an FW external drive. I run it from there until it becomes more useful &/or stable than the previous system. Mac OS 10.5 has not gotten out of the testing stage. At the rate it is progressing I'm not sure that it ever will.

With the way Mac OS 10.5 runs or should I say not run on my Intel Mac Pro, I'm fafraid to purchase a new Mac as they will require OS 10.5 to be able to run.

Wating eagerly for some more good OS software from Apple. Maybe it will run again. At least I have OS 10.4.11 to run on my PPC PowerMac & PowerBook, as well as on my Intel Mac Pro.

10.4.11 forever I guess,
Bill the TaxMan

heisetax

Jun 4, 2008, 11:43 PM

what's the hurry, I still haven't upgraded to leopard yet.

Save your money & don't upgrade.

Bill the TaxMan

heisetax

Jun 4, 2008, 11:56 PM

It's becoming rapidly outdated?

My PPC PowerBook handles the internet faster than my Intel Mac Pro does. Sometimes 2-3 times as fast. I downloaded the 350+ MB OS 10.5.3 update at the same time. The only thing that I really like my Intel Mac Pro for other than the 4 large displays attached to it is the speed with which it will run Windows software. With my systems the PPC will be living for a long, long time.

I only used Windows software to do my efiling. So long live the PPC. Is this Intel just another "Snow" job like the sugested Mac OS 10.6 "Snow"leopard?

Bill the TaxMan

heisetax

Jun 5, 2008, 12:24 AM

Will not happen. Tiger had 11 some odd software updates, Leopard still only has 3. Way too soon.

I think they aant tohave a name changed to get away with the aparent lack of quality, stability & speed of all Mac OS 10.5 versions.

Bill the TaxMan

milo

Jun 5, 2008, 07:41 AM

I don't even remember an OS 8.7, 8.8, or 8.9 before they jumped to 9.0. So your logic doesn't make sense. Also, I don't think there was a 7.7, 7.8 or 7.9 either... they stopped at 7.6.1 didn't they?

Apple has switched to a completely different naming convention. Their 10.x releases are comparable to a new X.0 version. I doubt we'll see 11.x until they either get to 10.9 or do an absolutely huge overhaul of the OS that requires a brand new name.

Except Vista isn't a failure, and an extremely vocal minority of PC users are the only ones who are even doing such a stupid thing like downgrading to XP. It's about as dumb as downgrading from Leopard to Tiger.

Vista is widely considered to be somewhat of a failure, and there are still quite a few users buying new machines with XP. Dell is just now saying that they will stop offering XP, saying "last chance" on their site. There are some serious performance issues on Vista - sticking with XP isn't stupid, nor is it remotely comparable to downgrading to Tiger (although there were some apps that didn't play nice with Leopard so I wouldn't be surprised if a few OSX users did downgrade).

it just seems that way as for many, I'm included in that group have found that Mac OS 10.5 is not ready for prime time My average time to freeze or crash on my Intel Mac Pro is about 15 minutes.

That sounds like either a corrupt install of 10.5 or a hardware problem with your machine. Especially if your mac pro is running slower than a PPC laptop. Either way, you should have it looked at, that's not typical behaviour for 10.5 - it would be silly to avoid upgrading the OS simply because it's hosed on one machine, just get the problem fixed.

TheSpaz

Jun 5, 2008, 08:34 AM

Wating eagerly for some more good OS software from Apple. Maybe it will run again. At least I have OS 10.4.11 to run on my PPC PowerMac & PowerBook, as well as on my Intel Mac Pro.

10.4.11 forever I guess,
Bill the TaxMan

It sounds like you have some MAJOR problems. Maybe you should consider backing up, reformatting and reinstalling. I have 10.5.3 running on my Mac Pro at home and I beat that computer up and it stays on for months at a time without freezing. You should also consider what third party apps, control panels, or plugins you're using and check them for new updates to make sure they're running well in the new OS. Leopard should certainly NOT be doing that to you... so it has to be something with third party software you have installed.

APPLENEWBIE

Jun 5, 2008, 11:16 AM

I seems to me highly unlikely that Steve Jobs would stand up in front of the herd with nothing to show but an upgraded iPhone. After all, the addition of 3g/gps/front camera and/or a few new apps is not really very interesting. It is what everyone has expected for an upgraded, V.2 iPhone. No magic there.

Almost without exception, when Jobs is involved, it is to announce something really new.

So, I am expecting some surprises...

chicagdan

Jun 5, 2008, 11:22 AM

APPLENEWBIE

Jun 5, 2008, 11:38 AM

1) 3G iPhone
2) cheaper ($200) 2.5G iPhone
3) demo of new iPhone aps
4) Mobile Me
5) Snow Leopard
6) one more thing ... iTablet (coming in September)

Sounds like quite a show to me.

3g iPhone: yawn, scratch, scratch...
Cheaper 2.5g iPhone: nothing new, just lower price
demo of new iPhone apps: Wow. Apps. Just like I wish blackberry had apps... oh, wait....
Mobile Me: A utility that does hard-to-explain tricks (that I happen to use and like)
Snow Leopard: Holy smoke! it's really gonna be faster and more stable? (faint)
iTablet: nifty new toy. What does it really do better than a laptop for most people?

Sorry for the sarcasm....just having a little fun... you may be quite right!

chicagdan

Jun 5, 2008, 11:56 AM

3g iPhone: yawn, scratch, scratch...
Cheaper 2.5g iPhone: nothing new, just lower price
demo of new iPhone apps: Wow. Apps. Just like I wish blackberry had apps... oh, wait....
Mobile Me: A utility that does hard-to-explain tricks (that I happen to use and like)
Snow Leopard: Holy smoke! it's really gonna be faster and more stable? (faint)
iTablet: nifty new toy. What does it really do better than a laptop for most people?

Sorry for the sarcasm....just having a little fun... you may be quite right!

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is not a consumer electronics show, it's a DEVELOPERS CONFERENCE. They care quite a bit about boring things like OS upgrades and new devices for the OS X mobility platform, regardless of how boring the consumer may find such talk.

APPLENEWBIE

Jun 5, 2008, 12:01 PM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is not a consumer electronics show, it's a DEVELOPERS CONFERENCE. They care quite a bit about boring things like OS upgrades and new devices for the OS X mobility platform, regardless of how boring the consumer may find such talk.

Yup. I probably expect way too much. No offense intended.

DiamondMac

Jun 5, 2008, 11:04 PM

Save your money & don't upgrade.

Bill the TaxMan

Agreed. I have Leopard and enjoy it very much but those still at Tiger are not missing that much, imo

TwinCities Dan

Jun 7, 2008, 05:37 PM

The thing that is making me a little mad if this rumor is true is not this though. My iMac Core Duo isn't really showing its age. It's not the fastest computer anymore but it still handles practically everything fine. It's the fact that the late G5's and specifically the Intel Core Duo support would also be dropped. I don't think this is exactly fair. If this rumor is true I would have only had my iMac Core Duo for about 2 1/2 years before I won't be able to update to the new operating system or any software that comes out for it later. I don't think that this is right.

I understand that Apple has to do what is best for Apple but I do not agree with it. Intel support (even if it is only 32 bit) should not be dropped at least until 10.7. I can see support for PPC G4's possibly being dropped but G5's and Intel are still perfectly capable machines that surely could run whatever new features are developed for 10.6. It's not like this will affect Apple's decision but I can hope can't I?

Just my $0.02

I just suped up my 1.83 CD MBP (2gb/320gb) because I was having the screen replaced. It is just over 2 years old. I hope I didn't screw myself out of 10.6 :o:(