Mac OS X 10.6 to Debut at WWDC 2008? [Archive]

MacRumors

Jun 3, 2008, 10:29 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

TUAW reports (http://www.tuaw.com/2008/06/03/rumor-mac-os-x-10-6-to-debut-at-wwdc-08/) that they have heard that Apple will be seeding developers with an early build of Mac OS X 10.6 at this year's WWDC. This news comes in the midst of reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/06/03/apple_set_to_serve_up_first_builds_of_mac_os_x_10_5_4.html) that Apple is preparing for 10.5.4 -- an ongoing maintenance release of Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard).

TUAW also believes that Mac OS X will quickly ship in January 2009, only 15 months after Leopard's initial release in October 2007. TUAW also believes that Mac OS X 10.6 will ship in January 2009, about 15 months after Leopard's initial release in October 2007. This actually corresponds to Steve Job's comments to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22apple.html) regarding major Mac OS X releases:
"I’m quite pleased with the pace of new operating systems every 12 to 18 months for the foreseeable future,” he said. “We’ve put out major releases on the average of one a year, and it’s given us the ability to polish and polish and improve and improve.”

The blog also revives rumors that Mac OS X 10.6 will drop PowerPC support (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/24/mac-os-x-10-6-to-drop-powerpc-support/) and become Intel-only.

While we can't vouch for the timeframe, MacRumors has also heard that Mac OS X 10.6 would be making a debut at WWDC. We were uncertain, however, how public a release it would be: whether it would be seeded to a limited number of developers or if it would be a more central focus in Jobs' keynote address. According to the report, however, Apple will not be introducing any new significant features in 10.6, instead focusing on "stability and security."

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/03/mac-os-x-10-6-to-debut-at-wwdc-2008/)

richard.mac

Jun 3, 2008, 10:31 PM

i dont know about releasing developer seeds but im thinking that Apple MAY, at the most, show features… way too early to release seeds.

(woohoo! my first page 1 first post!)

ziggyonice

Jun 3, 2008, 10:31 PM

It's time for the king!
10.6 LION, baby!

Luis

Jun 3, 2008, 10:33 PM

10.6 Liger of course

coolant113

Jun 3, 2008, 10:34 PM

PeteyKohut

Jun 3, 2008, 10:35 PM

NO WAY. This is so far out there....nope. Sorry.
:apple:

jasko

Jun 3, 2008, 10:35 PM

Leopard's only been out for a little, wtf.

lol, they'll save Lion for like, OS XI

teleromeo

Jun 3, 2008, 10:36 PM

what's the hurry, I still haven't upgraded to leopard yet.

zedsdead

Jun 3, 2008, 10:36 PM

TuffLuffJimmy

Jun 3, 2008, 10:36 PM

I highly doubt this. I think we're going to be sticking with Leopard for about two years. So... maybe we'll see some seeds about eleven or twelve months after it was released.

Rychy

Jun 3, 2008, 10:37 PM

Maybe a few hints at what's to come, but I can't see anything more... I won't complain about a new OS though. :)

JRomero

Jun 3, 2008, 10:37 PM

I think it's too early for a new OS. I can see Steve making a general announcement about 10.6 and dropping a few details and hints, but as far as announcing a whole new operating system, I would say MWSF '09 at the earliest.

benlee

Jun 3, 2008, 10:37 PM

i dont know about releasing developer seeds but im thinking that Apple MAY, at the most, show features… way too early to release seeds.

(woohoo! my first page 1 first post!)

The first post and probably going to be the most reasonable. This Keynote address is going to be mostly iPhone related. But I do think there will be discussion of 10.6, I doubt they are going to release a paid version that is mostly security and stability. Thats what the free updates are for. Apple knows how to sell things and this scheme just doesn't seem like Apple.

I like TUAW, but sometimes I think they throw out crazy stories like this without any backing.

10.6 Feature that will be announced: Time Machine 2: Back to the Future.
Now you can go forward in time with your documents. Freeing up much needed time to download itunes movies and music and touch applications.

MartiNZ

Jun 3, 2008, 10:38 PM

Sure. Bring on the Cougar!

At this point more excited about 10.5.4 beginning though ... there are still all those bugs that 3 didn't fix.

bacaramac

Jun 3, 2008, 10:38 PM

I thought the dropping PowerPC support was confirmed back when Leopard was released.

richard.mac

Jun 3, 2008, 10:39 PM

i wish they would come out with a new OS.. like 11.xx.... i mean i love apple and everything they do i just think its time to revamp the whole thing.... Isnt it way to early for a new OS?? whatever i know apple will do it right.. looking forward to it!! :):apple::apple:

there wont be OS 11 for a LONGGG time. before Mac OS X there was Mac OS 9 and earlier which was also called System which went up to System 7 before Mac OS 8. This was Mac OS classic.

Mac OS X is the brand name and a completely new OS. the most current version is Mac OS X 10.5.3 "Leopard" and is the fith version of Mac OS X. the first version was Mac OS X 10.0 "Cheetah" and was the public beta.

aLoC

Jun 3, 2008, 10:40 PM

Manzana

Jun 3, 2008, 10:40 PM

I could see a new OS release sometime in 09. What I can't see is dropping the support for PowerPC, that doesn't really make sense.

Nothing wrong with Universal Binaries, and now that we are Intel (and that they had x86 support for a while), what sense does it make to not openly support PowerPC?

Me1000

Jun 3, 2008, 10:41 PM

Please apple! bring it!!!!!
I mean I love leopard to death! I really do, but Im soooooo excited about cougar! :D:D:D:D

rockinrocker

Jun 3, 2008, 10:42 PM

not gonna happen.

they need to finish cleaning up leo before they even think about this...

bankshot

Jun 3, 2008, 10:44 PM

This is ridiculous. How about fixing/polishing Leopard first? OS X continues to become larger and more complex, which means it should logically take more time to do each successive major update. That is, unless Apple intends to approach the quality standards of other, less well-liked software companies.

My money's still on WWDC '09. I'll be the first to admit it if I'm wrong, but I sincerely hope that Apple takes the time to get things right - or at least better than Leopard was at launch! :rolleyes:

Tallest Skil

Jun 3, 2008, 10:45 PM

what sense does it make to not openly support PowerPC?

It's becoming rapidly outdated?

noodle654

Jun 3, 2008, 10:47 PM

Damn that was fast...

Sky Blue

Jun 3, 2008, 10:47 PM

I don't see it. Leopard is too new and needs some work, why rush out 10.6?

and no new features? Apple runs on it's Marketing dept most of the time.

cthomet

Jun 3, 2008, 10:48 PM

Macula

Jun 3, 2008, 10:49 PM

It's quite saddening that by the current standards of software marketing and engineering we cannot expect Mac OS to be stable before the .9 or .10 software update.

At 10.5.3, Leopard is still riddled with highly frustrating bugs. This situation has spoilt my appetite to the point that I am hardly excited about what's in store for 10.6.

socamx

Jun 3, 2008, 10:50 PM

It's becoming rapidly outdated?

Bull, all G5s and many later G4s are still quite capable machines. My Dual 1.8 is far from 'outdated' and is still a good performer in Leopard.

Dropping all PPC support would be just plain dumb. I'm not made of money and can't afford to buy a Intel desktop Mac and my needs both professionally and recreationally require a Mac Pro. iMac isn't an option for me.

My G5 as well as others are still perfectly fine at running OS X, especially the higher end ones with high end video cards.

SirOmega

Jun 3, 2008, 10:52 PM

Hah! I blogged about (http://www.sequence-omega.net/2008/06/02/one-week-to-wwdc-my-predictions/) this last night (among other things).

I expect it to be talked about, though I really didn't expect developers to get a copy, and I definitely don't expect that it would drop PPC support, simply because of the PA Semi acquisition. They have a substantial PPC knowledge base and product line, and I could see Apple putting PA Semi chips in set top boxes and other devices and running OSX on them.

In other words, there is no way Apple will be dropping OSX for PPC.

Chef Medeski

Jun 3, 2008, 10:52 PM

aethelbert

Jun 3, 2008, 10:53 PM

Dropping PPC support for a security/stability update? I call BS on that one.

Mac OS X Ocelot

Jun 3, 2008, 10:54 PM

1) Way too soon. Apple said after Leopard's release that they'll be slowing down a bit.

2) No new features? Stability release? We call that 10.5.4, everybody.

flopticalcube

Jun 3, 2008, 10:56 PM

Bull, all G5s and many later G4s are still quite capable machines. My Dual 1.8 is far from 'outdated' and is still a good performer in Leopard.

Dropping all PPC support would be just plain dumb. I'm not made of money and can't afford to buy a Intel desktop Mac and my needs both professionally and recreationally require a Mac Pro. iMac isn't an option for me.

My G5 as well as others are still perfectly fine at running OS X, especially the higher end ones with high end video cards.
It would only be reasonable to drop PPC support if it came out in 18 months or more. Before that, its too soon. Even the last PowerMacs are less than 2 years old. Just can't see it yet.

swingsong

Jun 3, 2008, 10:57 PM

The landmark event in two ways is the intro of multi-touch on all macs. Perhaps the Mighty Mouse will be trumped by a new way to control a mac in Leopard.

Sky Blue

Jun 3, 2008, 10:57 PM

1) Way too soon. Apple said after Leopard's release that they'll be slowing down a bit.

Nope

"I'm quite pleased with the pace of new operating systems every 12 to 18 months for the foreseeable future," he said. "We’ve put out major releases on the average of one a year, and it’s given us the ability to polish and polish and improve and improve." (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/10/22/steve_jobs_talks_future_mac_os_x_upgrades_mac_sales_and_more.html)

DTphonehome

Jun 3, 2008, 10:58 PM

No way. No new features and drop PPC support? "Security and stability" are features that you shouldn't have to pay to get. If this isn't a sellable upgrade, it may as well just be a 10.5.x release. I can see PPC support being dropped if there are major upgrades to the OS underpinnings, but not if this is just a minor update. Every 10.x release until now has been loaded with impressive features... 10.6 should be no different.

elppa

Jun 3, 2008, 10:59 PM

This is ridiculous. How about fixing/polishing Leopard first?

Leopard will continue to be fixed and polished, with all of that work, plus more all rolled into 10.6. The two developments will be simultaneous, with the last Leopard update coming out shortly before or just after 10.6 shipped. This is the way it has always been, no reason why it will not continue.

OS X continues to become larger and more complex, which means it should logically take more time to do each successive major update.

OS X is larger, but it is the engineers job to make sure it is not prohibitively complex to allow for frequent iterations (or at least iterations within the schedule).

I'm a little surprised at the negative responses. The best software is a result of frequent evolution over time.

I'm pleased Apple is moving forward with their 12/18 month release schedule and an early seed at WWDC will fit right in with that.

Ubuntu is on a 6 month schedule, Apple can't go at that speed, but they will not go slow either.

By January people will be ready for a new operating system I'm sure. It will not feel like too soon.

chadder007

Jun 3, 2008, 10:59 PM

If released that soon, that would only fuel PC fanboy's claim that Apple makes you pay for Service Packs.....

flopticalcube

Jun 3, 2008, 11:01 PM

Every 10.x release until now has been loaded with impressive features... 10.6 should be no different.
Maybe they will just use features that should have made it into Leopard but never did like fast OS switching.

sebastianlewis

Jun 3, 2008, 11:02 PM

Like?

The Graphics bug in 10.5.3 (although I haven't updated yet because of another bug in Disk Utility just refusing to partition my HDD), and the bug where Airport keeps dropping the WiFi connection and sometimes can't connect at all on my school network (especially when I need it to the most dammit).

Sebastian

Chef Medeski

Jun 3, 2008, 11:05 PM

Maybe they will just use features that should have made it into Leopard but never did like fast OS switching.
And ZTF.

Possibly implement more multi-touch features for the trackpad.

ZTF is one thing you would need a new release for.

Plus with a bit of increased speed they could work out another release, it would obviously be smaller but probably a cleanup right before the dump of multi-touch OS in late 2010 or 2011 to match Windows 7.

JPyre

Jun 3, 2008, 11:06 PM

Seeing as how MS is now starting to show signs of the current MacBook/iPhone OSs touch features, I would think a 10.6 Touch announcement would be appropriate right about now before Apple looks like they've been slacking.

Apple has been buying up and developing touch for awhile now and I think they're much further ahead than we think.

One thing to think about is that large touch screens suck, nobody wants to be that close to a desktop or laptop monitor, and they're at the wrong angle. If Apple would do something like an oled touchpad or like a nice wacom (http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/21UX.cfm) I think they might be onto something....

Touch screen, touch keyboard, no mouse.

They've proven that people can type on glass with no tactile feedback and do it very well. The key to this is the auto spell correction, this, above all, will change the way people use computers. Imagine being able to type on glass at the same speed as a regular keyboard with fewer errors (I can now on my iPhone). This is the one feature I miss when going from my iPhone to a computer, although OSX's spell checker is great now, it doesnt auto correct obviuos mistakes. (like the two in the last sentence)

One things for sure... every Mac running 10.6 will have passed the "Lion Certified Compatibility" program without having to bribe someone.

trip1ex

Jun 3, 2008, 11:06 PM

Way too soon.

twoodcc

Jun 3, 2008, 11:07 PM

wow, now this would surprise me. i do look forward to finding out about 10.6 though

sord

Jun 3, 2008, 11:07 PM

PowerBook G5 the Tuesday of WWDC?

My Quad 2.5GHz G5 system will be running for a long time, and is a great performer -- losing Apple's support this soon would be a major disappointment. Either way, I'm planning on not upgrading my machine for another 2 years (have to support my family before updating a perfectly fine machine).

X38

Jun 3, 2008, 11:07 PM

Dropping PowerPC support doesn't make sense. If this is just a minor update, what would be the point? More importantly though, it's not clear that x86 will always be the right choice. Intel seems to have stagnated a bit again, but IBM has made some big advancements with the POWER 6 series and has some interesting technology in development. The only serious advantage for Apple to staying with Intel is to give customers access to Windows only software with the ability to boot either OSX or Windows on a Mac. As the Mac market share grows, it may soon reach a point that no significant software will remain Windows only and the need for dual booting won't be so important. If IBM makes a significant leap ahead of Intel, Apple would be in the envious position of being able to leap frog their competition by instantly switching back to PowerPC as long as they have continued to support PowerPC in OSX. There may come a day when the cost of maintaining both versions outweighs the likelihood of needing to switch back, but that day will not come with a minor update of OSX released in less than a year. It would be a short sighted move.

arn

Jun 3, 2008, 11:07 PM

regarding timing of 10.6

Steve Jobs to NYTimes
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22apple.html

"I’m quite pleased with the pace of new operating systems every 12 to 18 months for the foreseeable future,” he said. “We’ve put out major releases on the average of one a year, and it’s given us the ability to polish and polish and improve and improve.”

CaryMacGuy

Jun 3, 2008, 11:07 PM

I sure hope that Steve doesn't spend too much time on OS 10.6. I am more interested in hearing all about the 3G iPhone.
This is how I think it will go:
"The next version of Mac OS X is <insert name here> but that is in the future...Today we will be focusing on the iPhone, Apple's newest development platform"

CWallace

Jun 3, 2008, 11:07 PM

Maybe they're re-working the kernel to take advantage of Nehalem's multi-threading abilities? We should start seeing Nehalem development boxes very soon...

a.cube

Jun 3, 2008, 11:08 PM

dblake

Jun 3, 2008, 11:08 PM

Will not happen. Tiger had 11 some odd software updates, Leopard still only has 3. Way too soon.

AmbitiousLemon

Jun 3, 2008, 11:10 PM

This actually corresponds to Steve Job's comments to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22apple.html) regarding major Mac OS X releases:
"I’m quite pleased with the pace of new operating systems every 12 to 18 months for the foreseeable future,” he said. “We’ve put out major releases on the average of one a year, and it’s given us the ability to polish and polish and improve and improve.”

1) Way too soon. Apple said after Leopard's release that they'll be slowing down a bit.

Jobs actually said just the opposite. He said that Leopard was an anchor to build on, he was pleased with 12 month release cycles and didn't want future releases to take as long as leopard but rather saw a return to a 12 month cycle.

Chef Medeski

Jun 3, 2008, 11:11 PM

maybe it is the full multi-touch OS, just in time for the redesign MBP. And beat windows 7 by a couple months.

Jan '09 is not by a couple of months its like a yr or 2. But I can't see it. Thats a huge release, no way they could pull it off in 15 months while working on iPhone. Especially since the signs point to less new features. Def. thing this is interim for next big jump which will be multi-touch. I guess hes trying to squeeze another update so there is not as much work for multi-touch cause I can already imagine thats a huge task.

avigalante

Jun 3, 2008, 11:14 PM

I think Steve will mention 10.6 at WWDC, and make it a point to highlight the features (such as, 'touch' interface/gestures).

MWSF '09 is realistically where I see a full introduction of the new OS, with the usual 'available later this year' (as in October 2009).

jholzner

Jun 3, 2008, 11:15 PM

1) Way too soon. Apple said after Leopard's release that they'll be slowing down a bit.

2) No new features? Stability release? We call that 10.5.4, everybody.

No, Apple did not say that at all. In fact, they said the exact opposite. After Tiger came out they said they would slow down and indeed they did. Once Leopard came out they said they were comfortable releasing new updates every 12 to 18 months so people need to get their facts straight. Steve Jobs said him self in October 07 that he wanted new versions every 12 to 18 months so a January 09 release would be spot on. Don't believe me? Read it for yourself.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/10/22/steve_jobs_talks_future_mac_os_x_upgrades_mac_sales_and_more.html

elppa

Jun 3, 2008, 11:15 PM

Way too soon.

When would be a good time to start talking about it? There are two major events a year. Leopard was late, Apple is on a 12-18 month release schedule:

MacWorld '09 will be 14 months after the release of Leopard.
WWDC '09 will be ~19 months after the release of Leopard.

So really it seems WWDC '08 is the perfect time to give developers the inside track on 10.6. Ship in early '09, then they will have 10.7 ready just before or slightly after Microsoft might be ready with Windows 7, in the year 2010ish.

GenericUsername

Jun 3, 2008, 11:15 PM

Mac OS X is the brand name and a completely new OS. the most current version is Mac OS X 10.5.3 "Leopard" and is the fith version of Mac OS X. the first version was Mac OS X 10.0 "Cheetah" and was the public beta.If 10.0 was the first version, then 10.5 is the sixth version.

bobertoq

Jun 3, 2008, 11:17 PM

Mac haters have always told me that PCs are more secure because of that hacking contest. (Where the Mac got hacked it like 15 minutes, PC took a couple hours, and Linux took forever) It'd be nice if those people were 'proved' wrong with a new version of Mac OS X.

I have no idea what features Apple could add to 10.6. Maybe an option for a 2D or 3D (glass) dock. Maybe a feature where the icon for an open app (in the dock) would feature a preview of the window (like a minimized window) or a 'full screen' option for apps that hides the menu bar (but that's kind of pointless)

But I can't think of any big features like 'Spaces'. Maybe taps in finder? I think they should get rid of the remaining Aqua elements and fully replace them with the iTunes 7 look.

lucasgladding

Jun 3, 2008, 11:18 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if we did see some sort of preview for 10.6 at WWDC. The iPhone SDK reinvents some significant parts of cocoa to leverage things like Core Animation. People complained when Leopard was delayed for the iPhone, but I imagine we will see the iPhone SDK bear fruits in the next version of the Mac OS.

SiliconAddict

Jun 3, 2008, 11:20 PM

Yah right. I wouldn't touch such an OS if you paid me $100. It would either be:

A. buggy as heck.
B. Nothing more then a slight facelift if being done in a little over a year.

If this is the case its simply a knee jerked reaction to MS's press release. Plus what with Apple being completely in the grips of iPhone fever I don't see them dropping the resources needed to speed such a release along.

Mr Maui

Jun 3, 2008, 11:25 PM

scottharwell

Jun 3, 2008, 11:26 PM

I'd be willing to bet major bucks that one thing will be included that's not stability and security; Multitouch. They'll implement it in the OS and then the hardware will come to make it touchscreen on laptops and touchpad for desktops.

KindredMAC

Jun 3, 2008, 11:27 PM

AppleNewton

Jun 3, 2008, 11:28 PM

10.6 Leopard II

I;d like to definitely see Fast OS switching with the advancement of Virtual Machines & bootcamp, i think it might be possible.
ZTF also would make a great addition.

The Menacer

Jun 3, 2008, 11:28 PM

Damn that was fast...

That's what she said!

Mr Maui

Jun 3, 2008, 11:28 PM

JPyre

Jun 3, 2008, 11:29 PM

'beating win7 out of the gate'

Jan '09 is not by a couple of months its like a yr or 2. But I can't see it. Thats a huge release, no way they could pull it off in 15 months while working on iPhone. Especially since the signs point to less new features. Def. thing this is interim for next big jump which will be multi-touch. I guess hes trying to squeeze another update so there is not as much work for multi-touch cause I can already imagine thats a huge task.

They already have most of the work done, and currently have been testing touch on the iPhone and MacBooks for over a year now successfully...

Last time I checked Cocoa Touch was a part of Xcode and available to anyone, so even developers NOW know how to create apps that will work with new Mac Touch OS....

Am I the only one that sees this fact that is so blatantly obvious? The iPhone SDK is the beta for the 10.6 SDK....

Rocketman

Jun 3, 2008, 11:31 PM

If this is yet another thing we see at WWDC, we are really in store for a treat, just look at the potential:

(1) iPhone 2.0 Software Release
(2) App Store up and Running ahead of schedule
(3) 3g iPhone & maybe an iPhone Nano given recent rumors
(4) OSX 10.6 - LION!
(5) me.com replaces .mac

I agree.

This thread has not produced much content (yet), but 10.6 is "very forward leaning".

10.5 was about portable compatibility and server side unix compliance.

10.6 will be about ZFS, media servers, cloud effects, server side V2.0, and wireless everything. It will be about new I/O schemas.

That said, all 10.x updates have to be backward compatible. If however the rumor is true that 10.6 is not backward compatible with PPC, which given Apple's history is entirely believable, one wonders what it is going to be compatible with going FORWARD?

Intel mobile, cloud services, palmtop supercomputers, 10.6 ON YOUR iPHONE 3.

Rocketman

Update: This new rumor confirms my claim.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=493741

Apple made 10 more stable than 9 by eliminating plenty of features. 10.6 will kill many features of 10.5, making 10.5 the OS of the era alongside 10.4.11.

Telp

Jun 3, 2008, 11:31 PM

I don't see it. Leopard is too new and needs some work, why rush out 10.6?

and no new features? Apple runs on it's Marketing dept most of the time.

I agree. 10.5 is too new, and not stable enough for them to go full throttle into 10.6. This WWDC will be about the iPhone, and the MacBook Air.

28monkeys

Jun 3, 2008, 11:32 PM

to compete with windows 7 ? just wondering...

Also i hope that @ WWDC 08, Steve will introduce a new cool thing that will blow microsoft's multi-touch sensors away!

Mainyehc

Jun 3, 2008, 11:39 PM

And ZTF.

Possibly implement more multi-touch features for the trackpad.

ZTF is one thing you would need a new release for.

Plus with a bit of increased speed they could work out another release, it would obviously be smaller but probably a cleanup right before the dump of multi-touch OS in late 2010 or 2011 to match Windows 7.

10.6 Leopard II

I;d like to definitely see Fast OS switching with the advancement of Virtual Machines & bootcamp, i think it might be possible.
ZTF also would make a great addition.

Err... care to elaborate on what that "ZTF" thing is?
Or are you talking about the new ZFS filesystem from Sun Microsystems? :confused:

In case it's really the ZFS filesystem you're talking about, yes, it would need a whole new release to be implemented... But, AFAIK, it is far from being usable and dependable for a full operating system as of yet, so I'm betting you'd have to wait for at least 10.7 to see it implemented.

By the way, while I'm at it, I, too, think it is premature to end PowerPC support. One thing is killing Classic, which was *really* old when they did so (OS X was introduced in the early 2000's, so they started phasing out Classic at least 7 years ago); the other is to end support for an entire platform which, frankly, still has some life to it, besides having been fully discontinued only two years ago. My four-year-old Rev.A G5 iMac, clocked at a "measly" 1.8 GHz, still shows a very decent performance under Leopard (better than some new PCs running Vista, I could argue).

Also, in Leopard, Apple revamped already quite a lot of the system's underpinnings, so a new release focused mainly on security, stability and the obvious marketable features (like Tiger was, for instance) which maintained PPC support would seem obvious to me.

caliguy

Jun 3, 2008, 11:42 PM

Eh, all of this 10.6 stuff is probably being confused with the touch version of Leopard that will be introduced along with the new tablet Mac at WWDC.

Now, that would make sense, right? A new touch platform for developers to begin developing for.

davebarnes

Jun 3, 2008, 11:43 PM

Leopard's only been out for a little, WTF.

Exactly my thought.

Personally, I like "Garfield" for the cat name.

Phillyzero

Jun 3, 2008, 11:44 PM

Sure. Bring on the Cougar!

At this point more excited about 10.5.4 beginning though ... there are still all those bugs that 3 didn't fix.

Or Lynx :D

Either way, I agree, we'd need a couple more fixes before 10.6 can really be considered.

azentropy

Jun 3, 2008, 11:44 PM

For WWDC '08 they will announce 10.6 (Lynx) and demo some of the upcoming features (multitouch, a new hypervisor, refreshed GUI, and a few other unique features)

There won't be a version released to developers yet, but in a "couple of months". They won't announce a release date, they never do. However, it will probably ship in March/April '09.

Darkroom

Jun 3, 2008, 11:44 PM

so, let me get this straight: apple wants to update Mac OS X, but it's going to be the same thing as the current version only "more stable", and they're going to rebrand it Mac OS 10.6? um... wouldn't that be role of Mac OS 10.5.4? on top of all that drop PPC support?

if this turns out to be true, than it's official that Apple is becoming more and more retarded as the years go by.

bed

Jun 3, 2008, 11:45 PM

Exactly my thought.

Personally, I like "Garfield" for the cat name.

Nah, Garfield would be bloated, fat and slow - ie Vista.

There's a new mac vs pc advert :D

inkswamp

Jun 3, 2008, 11:49 PM

It would be great if 10.6 focused more on features important to enterprise and admin-type needs. I know that's boring stuff for most users, but when you look at where Windows is in that regard compared to OS X, it's like night and day. I love OS X, but I wouldn't take it over Windows when it comes to admin work. There's just no contest. Apple talks a good game when it comes to these things, but their record leaves a lot to be desired.

Amdahl

Jun 3, 2008, 11:50 PM

It's becoming rapidly outdated?

No, it is slowly becoming outdated. In case you hadn't noticed, CPU speeds maxed out a few years ago. The fastest G5 was 2.7Ghz, and the fastest Mac today still only does 3.2Ghz.

Sky Blue

Jun 3, 2008, 11:51 PM

elppa

Jun 3, 2008, 11:52 PM

I agree. 10.5 is too new, and not stable enough for them to go full throttle into 10.6. This WWDC will be about the iPhone, and the MacBook Air.

They'll already be full throttle into 10.6. Development would have started before the release of Leopard. This is how it works. It's not a decision to be made.

WWDC is a developers conference, for developers of software. It will not be about the MacBook Air.

Software will be on the agenda, namely Mac OS X and iPhone OS. Probably version 6 and 2 respectively.

joeshell383

Jun 3, 2008, 11:57 PM

The first post and probably going to be the most reasonable. This Keynote address is going to be mostly iPhone related. But I do think there will be discussion of 10.6, I doubt they are going to release a paid version that is mostly security and stability. Thats what the free updates are for. Apple knows how to sell things and this scheme just doesn't seem like Apple.

I like TUAW, but sometimes I think they throw out crazy stories like this without any backing.

10.6 Feature that will be announced: Time Machine 2: Back to the Future.
Now you can go forward in time with your documents. Freeing up much needed time to download itunes movies and music and touch applications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_os_x_puma

Will_reed

Jun 3, 2008, 11:57 PM

My suspicion is that they will just announce the code name for the next version of OS X after all a similar announcement was made for leopard the WWDC after Tiger was released.

akac

Jun 4, 2008, 12:00 AM

Its not too soon. Sure if 10.6 was to be released this year, but its not. Leopard was talked about at WWDC in 2006 and then 2007 and then released late 2007. So if Apple talks about 10.6 now, that makes sense. Then they can talk about it again in 2009 and release it.

kitki83

Jun 4, 2008, 12:01 AM

jmadlena

Jun 4, 2008, 12:04 AM

The very fact that so many people here have said "No way" makes me assume that 10.6 will make an appearance. And like it or not people, Apple has already been working on 10.6 for a while now. It's not like they release 10.5.4 and then start working on the next major update. Not how things work.

I'm not saying a major preview or anything, but just some talking points about it. Give developers something to look forward to.

Also, concerning dropping PPC support, I don't think it will happen *this* soon, but people do know that Apple wants people to buy new machines, right? This would be a good way to force people to upgrade. It sucks that people are forced into this position at all (PPC -> Intel transition), but compare our situation to Vista users. Not that bad.

Pants Dragon

Jun 4, 2008, 12:05 AM

Please name it Ocelot! It's the coolest cat name, plus, WWDC is right around when Metal Gear Solid 4 comes out! :p

KurtangleTN

Jun 4, 2008, 12:09 AM

Maybe get Leopard running as well as Tiger, and then talk about a new version, Apple.

And also, please next time release updates that don't cause constant kernel panics to my Mac.

Thanks!

whoami

Jun 4, 2008, 12:09 AM

I'm calling BS on it being seeded.
I DO think they will show at least a lil something..
I'm sure it will be much more impressive than the windows 7 demo to say the least! ;)

EgbertAttrick

Jun 4, 2008, 12:19 AM

Not supporting PPC is bunk! Intel Macs have only been out for 2.5 years. My PowerBook 12" still has PLENTY of mileage left on it... PLENTY!

beez1717

Jun 4, 2008, 12:22 AM

What if they designed something like core graphics which alowed the OS to start using things like open GL?

maxrobertson

Jun 4, 2008, 12:23 AM

I thought the dropping PowerPC support was confirmed back when Leopard was released.

No, no it wasn't. It's just one of those annoying things that keeps getting repeated constantly.

beez1717

Jun 4, 2008, 12:24 AM

terryzx

Jun 4, 2008, 12:29 AM

iceman1234

Jun 4, 2008, 12:36 AM

I think they may integrate multi-touch into Leopard if and when they release a multi-touch display. Whos to say if this is a totaly new OS or just a revamp of leopard.:confused:

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 12:39 AM

WAY too early to create a new OS. Leopard's still not working completely as it should, so I can’t see PAYING for a new upgrade...at least til Leopard has been working RIGHT for a while. Unless it would be a FREE upgrade:)

Some companies "can" walk and chew gum at the same time ;)

I'm sure the 10.6 team is cranking away and the 10.5 team is as well.

It does "feel" early but that's because Leopard was 4 months late. Clearly Apple had to shift some engineers from some depts and that likely caused the delay. Let us not forget that OS X shipped on two new platforms last year. The Apple TV and the iPhone. Now that those two products have seen a maiden voyage I expect that updates for all OS X versions to commence rather quickly

A Spring launch of 10.6 is in line with Jobs comments about OS refreshes. PPC support may be dropped and that would suck for some people but it sure would speed up testing and development not having to worry about legacy support. Leopard is a fine OS for PPC.

inkswamp

Jun 4, 2008, 12:40 AM

I agree that they should be more focused on the enterprise. I'd love built in Exchange support. However, I'd take OS X over Windows for admin work any day (and I do, everyday!).

Seriously? I do admin work for both OS X and Windows machines and OS X's limitations really irritate me sometimes. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating Windows. For every day stuff and my own personal work, I will always take a Mac, but when I do admin work, I get sort of bummed out that Windows has so many conveniences and so many little touches that make admin work much easier and OS X doesn't.

BillyBobBongo

Jun 4, 2008, 12:46 AM

Man, what have TUAW been smoking?!

Not a snowballs........

I love the rumors that kick around before these things. Some people just seem to have the most outlandish of ideas. :D

NicP

Jun 4, 2008, 12:49 AM

No, it is slowly becoming outdated. In case you hadn't noticed, CPU speeds maxed out a few years ago. The fastest G5 was 2.7Ghz, and the fastest Mac today still only does 3.2Ghz.

The clock speed of a cpu does not tell you how much "work" a processor can do in a given amount of time. I went from a p4 2.4ghz to a core 2.0ghz and got an increase in performance. Manufactures have shifted away from simply ramping up the clock speed to increase performance.

NickolasSin

Jun 4, 2008, 12:51 AM

I can't believe you guys didn't know about any of this. Ugh. 10.6 is going to be called orion, and is dropping powerpc support for brain-cell technology.;)
And for once apple is releasing an operating system, with NO new features.

bankshot

Jun 4, 2008, 12:52 AM

Some companies "can" walk and chew gum at the same time ;)

Yes, and Apple has repeatedly shown that it is not one of those companies. :p

The biggest example of this, of course, is the iPhone OS taking resources away from Leopard development. But you see it often with other Apple products: the company gets hot on one thing (iPod, iTunes, iPhone, etc), letting other products languish (Mac mini, enterprise products, .Mac, etc).

I think it may have to do with the fact that Steve Jobs is a control freak and likes to be personally involved in every project. It's not so much a lack of resources, or even poor resource planning; it's that Apple as a whole tends to focus more on the products that Steve is currently excited about. Other products suffer a lack of updates, until he either gets completely tired of them and kills them, or his excitement is suddenly renewed and Apple does a big, overdue update to them.

On the topic of this thread in particular: yes, Apple can and does develop for multiple versions of the OS at once. They've always made updates to the current or previous OS while the next one was in active development or recently released. But make no mistake: a shift in focus to 10.6 means that a majority of OS developers will be moved onto that project, leaving a much smaller group to continue updating 10.5. I, for one, think it's too soon to make that shift in resources. And it seems I have some company in that sentiment. ;)

maddogeco

Jun 4, 2008, 12:55 AM

iMikeT

Jun 4, 2008, 12:57 AM

Release in January 2009, yeah right. Too much wishful thinking I think. :rolleyes:

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 12:57 AM

I view Leopard as still being a "Transition" OS.

It must support PPC and Intel
It must support a hodge podge of Carbon and Cocoa apps

No matter how much screaming people do Apple simply must boil OS X down a clearer set of tools and hardware.

Put the work into Cocoa and Intel optimization. I agree Apple has showed growing pains from trying to please everyone but it's time to move forward with a same solution.

trentoncain

Jun 4, 2008, 01:00 AM

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 01:00 AM

Release in January 2009, yeah right. Too much wishful thinking I think. :rolleyes:

What exactly is wishful about it? January 09 is over a year from the launch date of Leopard which was itself delayed. I don't know where you guys are buying your healthy dosage of incredulity but you don't have much in the way of facts to back up your assertion considering this very post leads off with a quote from Jobs about speeding up the development cycle.

VanNess

Jun 4, 2008, 01:02 AM

I guess with Windows 7 rumored to be seeded or released in 09 Apple will amp it up. Also its probably gonna be just demonstration on concepts they want to introduce to the public, which is good they can get a feel on what was favored and what was hated.

That's pretty much my feeling as well. After throwing Vista under the bus, Microsoft has been actively crowing about the next version of Windows, most recently showing off the touch screen interface. I just can't imagine Apple (Jobs) letting the Windows 7 dog and pony show go unanswered.

Apple has always hyped the fact that OS X is "years ahead" of the competition, and WWDC has been the forum of choice for Microsoft bashing concerning Windows. All in all, it may be just an announcement, short on details, but long on implied "secret" features that just can't be announced at this time - lest Microsoft fills the lead copycat position in the Windows 7 development team. In any event, it will almost certainly be suggested that the next version of OS X ("a history-making breakthrough release" - I can hear it now) will ship around the same time as Microsoft currently claims Windows 7 will ship.

Apple won't let Microsoft hog the spotlight (or the attention of the press or internet mindshare) for any extended period of time.

trevorlsciact

Jun 4, 2008, 01:06 AM

I'm thinking that apple is going to go in a new direction with their OS to make os7 look primitive yet again. I don't know how they will do it, but once they do it then yet again microsoft will have to play the catch up game.

god i hope so, because leopard is FUGLY! :( I love the features, but, transparent menu bar. REFLECTIVE dock!? what the HELL were they thinkin! I do think reflectiveness has a place in a beautiful interface, but NOT how apple implemented it in leopard. About the only visual element of leopard I like better is the nice unified theme for the windows, along with the plainly obvious front window, it is very nice looking and useful. But the menu bar and dock look retched.
If I were to add some nice pretty reflectiveness to the interface it would be windows in the background reflecting, subtly, the windows in front of them, just in the area's where the window frame or whatever you want to call it is, and slightly warp it around the edges to give the windows a curved look. Basically make the mettle more realistic. Some other subtle reflectiveness could be added to buttons, etc, things that look good, and are not obtrusive or gaudy. :apple:

Quillz

Jun 4, 2008, 01:06 AM

there wont be OS 11 for a LONGGG time. before Mac OS X there was Mac OS 9 and earlier which was also called System which went up to System 7 before Mac OS 8. This was Mac OS classic.

Mac OS X is the brand name and a completely new OS. the most current version is Mac OS X 10.5.3 "Leopard" and is the fith version of Mac OS X. the first version was Mac OS X 10.0 "Cheetah" and was the public beta.Not correct. The Public Beta was an independent release, a 0.x release, if you will. Cheetah was not a beta (although many still considered it unusuable), and was the first retail version of Mac OS X.

Quillz

Jun 4, 2008, 01:10 AM

I haven't agreed with a lot of the "upgrades" Apple has done for the past few years. It feels like their upgrades are really just service packs.

Also, every time they release a new upgrade it's buggy as hell and not worth messing with until 10.x.2-3. Why can't they just wait it out and THOROUGHLY test it before releasing? Especially if they were to use ZFS and implement multi-touch all around the GUI.

Another thing that bothers me is while you have to pay for the upgrade you also have to go out and by iLife again. Can't they simply include this with the OS for the same price???? 200 bucks is a lot to drop every year to year 1/2.

Trenton
And people make the argument that Windows is expensive. I bought Vista Ultimate at my college for $129. The same price as Leopard.

jmadlena

Jun 4, 2008, 01:12 AM

im doubtful im stil running tiger (go minimalism) but i can garentee it wont be call loin. loin is the wrong type of cat (we're yet to have a maned cat) my money is on cougar or lynx

wikipedia claims apple has trade marked those names

I agree, it will definitely not be called 'Loin.' It would have to called 'Loin Cloth.'

But keeping with the cat theme, maybe 'Loin Claw.'

Hell, maybe 'Lion.'

:D

VanNess

Jun 4, 2008, 01:15 AM

And people make the argument that Windows is expensive. I bought Vista Ultimate at my college for $129. The same price as Leopard.

Your college wasn't offering Leopard at the $116 student price?

phytonix

Jun 4, 2008, 01:22 AM

And people make the argument that Windows is expensive. I bought Vista Ultimate at my college for $129. The same price as Leopard.

Here is $69 for Leopard.
Well, and institution order is $19.

MacFly123

Jun 4, 2008, 01:23 AM

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 01:23 AM

I haven't agreed with a lot of the "upgrades" Apple has done for the past few years. It feels like their upgrades are really just service packs.

Also, every time they release a new upgrade it's buggy as hell and not worth messing with until 10.x.2-3. Why can't they just wait it out and THOROUGHLY test it before releasing? Especially if they were to use ZFS and implement multi-touch all around the GUI.

Another thing that bothers me is while you have to pay for the upgrade you also have to go out and by iLife again. Can't they simply include this with the OS for the same price???? 200 bucks is a lot to drop every year to year 1/2.

Trenton
:confused: You don't have to buy iLife just because you made a OS upgrade. My iLife from Tiger is the same iLife that runs fine under Leopard.

If you don't understand the differences between Service Packs and OS X updates then just leave it at that. Every new version of OS X has implemented a new "Core" tool in addition to updates all over the system. The feature changes are certainly behond the scope of most service packs I'm aware of.

wincc

Jun 4, 2008, 01:24 AM

Bull, all G5s and many later G4s are still quite capable machines. My Dual 1.8 is far from 'outdated' and is still a good performer in Leopard.

Dropping all PPC support would be just plain dumb. I'm not made of money and can't afford to buy a Intel desktop Mac and my needs both professionally and recreationally require a Mac Pro. iMac isn't an option for me.

My G5 as well as others are still perfectly fine at running OS X, especially the higher end ones with high end video cards.

G4 & G5 is going to run Leopard as fine as now even if Apple release 10.6.

I hope Apple make 10.6 64bit Intel only put ZFS into it and make use of the TPM chip to make life harder for those "Hackintoshers". Drop Tiger and make Leopard a free download as an update.

Aranince

Jun 4, 2008, 01:26 AM

I think its a good idea to drop PPC systems. Apple has stopped development of PPC based computers several years ago, its time to move on. Dropping PPC and Carbon support will greatly enhance OS X in speed, stability, security, and size. Speed, stability, security, and size will all be enhanced due to a very large code base being removed from the system, leaving much less room for errors and bugs which makes it easier to maintain, keep secure, and keep speedy.

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 01:26 AM

10.5.3 is giving me glitches with my screen dimming by its self without me doing anything, after waking from sleep, restarting, even when I turned up my volume the screen started dimming lol. What the HE!! Apple???

I'm on a 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro by the way. Anyone else getting this crap?

I think this rumor is BS, way too early. Not to mention if Apple did this and didn't really advance the multi-touch etc. it would really really really hurt them in the war for the new OS against Micro$oft, and I do NOT see Apple blowing it like that when they finally have a fighting chance which they have been preparing for in the wake of Vista for years.

Multi-Touch is more salient in portable use. Sure it'll creep desktop usage but Microsoft has it all wrong and Apple and anyone with a brain knows this. People don't want to touch their screen to compute all day unless they have very specific needs.

I think its a good idea to drop PPC systems. Apple has stopped development of PPC based computers several years ago, its time to move on. Dropping PPC and Carbon support will greatly enhance OS X in speed, stability, security, and size. Speed, stability, security, and size will all be enhanced due to a very large code base being removed from the system, leaving much less room for errors and bugs which makes it easier to maintain, keep secure, and keep speedy.

Bingo ..we have a winner folks!

skellener

Jun 4, 2008, 01:30 AM

Way too soon.Don't forget, developers get this stuff waaaay before the general public. I can see them getting it, but I really doubt the release in Jan. 2009.

Switz213

Jun 4, 2008, 01:31 AM

10.6 - Ferret

Nermal

Jun 4, 2008, 01:33 AM

I hope Apple make 10.6 64bit Intel only put ZFS into it and make use of the TPM chip to make life harder for those "Hackintoshers". Drop Tiger and make Leopard a free download as an update.

I don't believe that all current systems have a TPM chip; I'm fairly sure that my MBP doesn't have one (at least, Vista doesn't see it and can't use Bitlocker or whatever it's called).

Earendil

Jun 4, 2008, 01:34 AM

And people make the argument that Windows is expensive. I bought Vista Ultimate at my college for $129. The same price as Leopard.

And it is expensive. Your point is not valid for the majority of consumers, and when comparing the regular retail price, Vista costs a lot more. Heck, I bet you the average price paid for Vista is a lot more.

Now on point.
I see a lot of silly foolishness in this thread.

People say that a Jan release is too soon. You kids have nothing to base this on, not past release times and dates, not Steve Jobs' own words, not anything except this feeling.

Oh wait, they are only on 5.3, so obviously we can't be 1/2 the progress on a new Operating system. Afterall, Apple, not being very good at software dev, only has 3 guys working over there, and none of them specialize in anything special, so they all work on only one thing at a time :rolleyes:
[/large amounts of sarcasm]

They have some 17,000 employees, I'm pretty sure they can have a few thousand working on 10.6, a few thousand working on 10.5.4, and still have a couple people left to work on really advanced dev and other areas.

And all this "Apple focuses on OSX and leaves things like the Mini behind" ? Like what, all the Computer Science majors walk over to the material engineers and say they want to help? There is obviously a shifting of resources and focus as a company, but it doesn't shift THAT much, not in a company the size of Apple.

Wake up guys, you are all living in a dream world full of fantasies and unreal expectations.

As a side note, 10.6 can't be both stability only AND drop PPC support.
Dropping PPC support implies a huge change under the hood, like massive to the point where it is worth dropping PPC "early". And I do think it would be early (He says from his trusty Powerbook).

But you don't just turn off PPC one day for the fun of it :rolleyes:

~Earendil

messedkid

Jun 4, 2008, 01:36 AM

starflyer

Jun 4, 2008, 01:39 AM

Leopard was late, Apple is on a 12-18 month release schedule:

Exactly. Keep in mind that Leopard was scheduled to be released in June '07, but was delayed due to the iPhone OS. Sounds like they are right on schedule now.

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 01:44 AM

OS X Release dates

Leopard- Oct 2007
Tiger- April 2005
Panther- Oct 2003
Jaguar- Aug 2002
Puma- Sept 2001
Cheetah- March 2001

You see Leopard was one of the longest development cycles that OS X has had but it is NOT the norm. January 09 is not "way too early" by any stretch.

hobbbz

Jun 4, 2008, 01:51 AM

I'm all for dropping PPC, and I only own PPC machines (currently).

Just because 10.6 won't run on a PPC doesn't make your PPC stop working. It just means eventually you'll have to buy a new machine if you want the latest OS features.

10.4 went to 10.4.11 and if 10.5 is the last PPC OS I'm sure apple will sew it up nice and tight to ensure it's the best it can possibly be for the last OS an older machine can run.

MacFly123

Jun 4, 2008, 01:51 AM

Multi-Touch is more salient in portable use. Sure it'll creep desktop usage but Microsoft has it all wrong and Apple and anyone with a brain knows this. People don't want to touch their screen to compute all day unless they have very specific needs.

I agree with you and I know that Microsoft has it all wrong, but Apple still needs to lead the way. I think Apple will do multi-touch with the full touch surface that replaces the keyboard and mouse and also inflates in some way to provide a realistic typing surface like their patents show, and they will use the touch screen multi-touch on smaller portable devices but not the laptops and desktops.

Cloudmover

Jun 4, 2008, 02:00 AM

When Apple announced the move to Intel I think we all knew that the PowerPCs days were numbered.

I would imagine that it is quite a strain on developers (and Apple itself) to compile both PowerPC and x86 versions for the Apple platform. I see Adobe is the first software developer to create an App that only runs on Intel Macs -Adobe Soundbooth Beta (http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/soundboothcs4/) - and I'm sure we will see other developers following their lead in the coming months. Eventually one has to look at the bottom line and I think Apple would probably be better suited having it's developers and it's OS engineers concentrating on one binary.

Still, it does make me sad...

I have used my G4 MDD for about five years and it does what I want it to. However, if I'm honest, after five years working on the G4 MDD, it's showing it's age. When I do music, it can barely keep up with Logic 8 or Pro Tools and if I create any image in Photoshop over 300 dpi - letter size, it slows down dramatically. I don't see how any five year old machine can be expected to keep up with the rapid advances in technology and I'm frankly stunned that this PPC Mac has held it's own so long.

I hope my new Mac Pro will enjoy the same longevity as my G4 MDD.

BongoBanger

Jun 4, 2008, 02:03 AM

Multi-Touch is more salient in portable use. Sure it'll creep desktop usage but Microsoft has it all wrong and Apple and anyone with a brain knows this. People don't want to touch their screen to compute all day unless they have very specific needs.

Well that's great because that's not what MS's touch model asks you to do - I mean, sure, you have the option but it's not going to be compulsory - because it'll work in harmony with other, more traditional, input methods.

Maybe you should actually know what you're talking about before saying they have it all wrong, hmm?

Anyway, on topic:

I can't see why people get excited about a new OS coming out every 12-18 months because, to me, it's just a way of getting more money out of gullible people. OS's should be driven by improvements in technology and since Leopard is still a bit rusty the idea of a new commercial release coming out seems silly.

Hopefully this is just a rumour.

stagi

Jun 4, 2008, 02:09 AM

If there are no new additions just extra security and better performance then this might be the first upgrade I might miss. But AAPL is smarter than that, they always have a few extra features that I have to have and pay $130 for them :)

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 02:13 AM

Well that's great because that's not what MS's touch model asks you to do - I mean, sure, you have the option but it's not going to be compulsory - because it'll work in harmony with other, more traditional, input methods.

Maybe you should actually know what you're talking about before saying they have it all wrong, hmm?

Anyway, on topic:

I can't see why people get excited about a new OS coming out every 12-18 months because, to me, it's just a way of getting more money out of gullible people. OS's should be driven by improvements in technology and since Leopard is still a bit rusty the idea of a new commercial release coming out seems silly.

Hopefully this is just a rumour.

I do know what I'm talking about. I worked for an Assistive Technology firm and trained Doctors and people with disabilities in addition to helping with ergonomic assessments. I never said it was going to be compulsory. It'll work for certain narrow uses. So what was that that you were saying again?

While OS advancement may sound silly to you others realize that Apple is on the cusp of multiple transitions. From Carbon to Cocoa...from PPC to Intel and from 32-Bit to 64-bit. How long should we expect for the ship to stop rocking here?

dAlen

Jun 4, 2008, 02:14 AM

Think about what Apple just did with Adobe.
hint: why mac users wont have 64bit CS4.

Adobe sat on their butts and didnt use what Apple told them they wanted them to transition to years back.

Well, now Apple is going to help give the consumers a good push along.
Truth is new OSs only really shine on new boxes, so what is the big deal.
Its just my opinion, but dont be surprised if they do drop binaries. - again, Adobe was shocked, otherwise they would be able to give us 64bit with CS4. ;)

Peace

dAlen

swissmann

Jun 4, 2008, 02:15 AM

2) No new features? Stability release? We call that 10.5.4, everybody.

Exactly. Well or maybe 10.5.5 or 10.5.6 or 10.5.11 or something like that.

I don't mind the pace but I sure wish the quality accompanied it. There are many bugs in Apple's software that I would like to see fixed and often time don't until a new version comes out and sometimes not even then.

One example. Try the insert date and time in Numbers. If you don't reformat while it's doing it no time is inserted just the date and noon. So if it doesn't insert the time why does it say insert date and time?

hansen

Jun 4, 2008, 02:18 AM

Apple will not be introducing any new significant features in 10.6, instead focusing on "stability and security.

So now I have to pay to get a fix to errors in the product I just bought??? oh - and I need to buy a new computer too...

Cassie

Jun 4, 2008, 02:18 AM

How does dropping PPC support NOT make sense?

Apple has had a boner for Intel for quite some time now, and has been pushing their "Transition to Intel" on all their Macs.

It makes total sense to stop bringing out brand new software/OS' for their old product line, to force users to buy their new and improved products.

I don't think Apple is that greedy.

First of all, even though Leopard was delayed and took longer then expected to come out, it's way too soon for 10.6. (BTW, I'm putting my bets on "Cougar" not "Lion") Developers builds, maybe at WWDC. That's a big maybe. I would guess 10.6 to be released at WWDC '09.

Second, PPC isn't going anywhere. I think 10.6 will drop most G4 support, perhaps allowing the high end PowerBooks. G5's will be supported through 10.7, perhaps 10.8, if OS X goes that far.

ezekielrage_99

Jun 4, 2008, 02:19 AM

Mac OSX LOLcat all the way :cool:

iMat77

Jun 4, 2008, 02:21 AM

My opinion:

WWDC stands for "Worldwide Developer Conference" that is the most suited place for "pro apps" related information as well as OS related ones. Of course iPhone is the Steve's creature and it will have a prominent space.

The way I see it is the following:
- announce iPhone 3G
- peak at 10.6 which will be the last OSX iteration. Next one will be OS XI (with a more prominent space theme (and name scheme)).
- Maybe also some info about pro Apps (Aperture, Final Cut, and the like)

New MacBooks and MacBook Pros (as well as, possibily, new MacMini and Mac Pro, including cinema display (LED cough cough, a lot thinner...)) will be announced towards the end of the back to school program (or right after it) at an invitation special event. This also because Intel announced delay in shipping Centrino 2 platform. This allows Apple to concentrate on Developer related issues at WWDC.

Since Jobs is no "developer" himself, his keynote will be centered on the "fun and ooooh" stuff like, as I said, 10.6 and iPhone. With the announcement that 10.6 is the last OSX.

OS XI will mark a clear cut with the "old" tech (Carbon, 32 bit, PPC support among others, possibly old file system as well). 10.6 will introduce option for ZFS but OS XI will be ZFS only. So transition will be made smoothly with the last to releases of OSX (Leopard and the next one). And then a fresh new start with OS XI (just before Windows 7 SHOULD (stress should) be made available).

nuckinfutz

Jun 4, 2008, 02:27 AM

cthomet

Jun 4, 2008, 02:32 AM

stephenli

Jun 4, 2008, 02:35 AM

i just got my 24 months instalments on my PowerMac G5 Quad settled last week...
dropping PowerPC support?! noooooo.....it wasn't funny....
i do wish my G5 could be used for a longer time with new OS..its still working very fine right now...

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 02:38 AM

Apple dropping PPC in 10.6 does not compute.
That would be taking the beauty of the UNIVERSAL BINARY and throwing it out the window. UB keeps a door open for Apple to jump onto any new chip out there that might look more appealing.

IBM is far from dead in the PPC world. If the Power6 and Power7 work out as planned, it would make more sense for Apple to abandon the XEON chips and use the Powers in the Mac Pros.

Besides, every G5 chip out there in iMacs or Power Macs are more than capable of tearing apart an OS for at least 3-4 more years.

I totally agree with this statement, UB is very important to apple, I wouldn't be surprised, if a a few years time apple makes a partial or preferably full transition back to PPC. UB is there so apps can still be used when apple makes the decision to go back to PPC.

Intel is just a hold over until the PPC alliance gets back into gear, and if the PPC 6 & 7 chips turn out like they say they are going to apple will be using PPC again with in 5 years. If it weren't for the G5 problems apple would still be releasing new PPC machines. That's my opinion at least.

As for 10.6 dropping PPC support it won't happen. G5, and even some G4 machines are still really great machines. IMHO.

Don

Trip.Tucker

Jun 4, 2008, 02:39 AM

It's time for the king!
10.6 LION, baby!

Lynx, actually. ;)

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 02:42 AM

Lynx, actually. ;)

Sounds way to much like Linux. Lynx won't happen, I say cougar, then Lion, then OS XI.

EricNau

Jun 4, 2008, 02:42 AM

I can't imagine Apple popping out another OS in less than 8 months, much less holding preview next week. After all, we're only on 10.5.3, as Apple is clearly focusing on the iPhone sdk at the moment.

...Unless of course Apple plays the "we were creating two separate OS's at the same time" card again. If that were the case OS 10.6 would need to be drastically different, not just a few tweaks as was the case with Leopard.

PS - My bet's on OS 10.6 Cougar.

MattInOz

Jun 4, 2008, 02:43 AM

Not to soon at all to preview 10.6.
Indeed as others have the timing is about right to give developers time to take advantage of the features. That is all that will be shown, features that have API's developers can take advantage of.

Thing to remember that OS10.6 is also the OS for iPhone3 they are going to have to keep close to yearly as well and best to streamline things where they can.

Maybe the release date is a bit off, would have thought March/April for MacOSX not January, but a full preview at macworld. Maybe June/July for iPhoneOSX

MattInOz

Jun 4, 2008, 02:54 AM

I totally agree with this statement, UB is very important to apple, I wouldn't be surprised, if a a few years time apple makes a partial or preferably full transition back to PPC. UB is there so apps can still be used when apple makes the decision to go back to PPC.

Intel is just a hold over until the PPC alliance gets back into gear, and if the PPC 6 & 7 chips turn out like they say they are going to apple will be using PPC again with in 5 years. If it weren't for the G5 problems apple would still be releasing new PPC machines. That's my opinion at least.

As for 10.6 dropping PPC support it won't happen. G5, and even some G4 machines are still really great machines. IMHO.

Don

I can't see a drop of PPC next version, but maybe the version after at the earliest. Still no reason to drop it altogether they would still maintain PPC or POWER support even if there isn't a machine within the spec of OSX.7 just to leave the door open.

UB is still important as Apple have ARM architecture to support with in the OS builds as Mac/iPhone OSX get closer and closer together. The iPhone just wouldn't have happened without UB.

allbrokeup

Jun 4, 2008, 02:55 AM

10.6 Cougar!!!! (sorry needed to say that :D)

Remember when OS X 10.0 came out? 10.1 was a free upgrade wasn't it? Maybe Apple will do that for Leopard, Leopard may have been an intermittent release of OS X before the true new version in 2008. Who knows? Apple has surprised us in the past. As for the iPhone lite/nano/micro/mini/tiny or whatever I think it is very likely.

I hope OS X 10.6 is released because it will truly be Intel Only by the sounds of things going around. If Leopard dropped PowerPC G3 and G4 below 850 MhZ then 10.6 is likely to drop all of the PowerPC models, except faster G5's. I think Apple is gradually phasing out OS X updates to PowerPC-based Macs just like they did for Mac OS 9, only continuing to Mac OS 9.2.2 and then eventually only being supported in the Classic Environment.

Just my two cents :D

allbrokeup
:apple::eek::mad::apple:

curmi

Jun 4, 2008, 02:56 AM

Given how buggy Leopard Server is, you would hope we didn't have to wait for 10.6 (and have to pay another $1000) to get the bugs sorted out. :)

psychofreak

Jun 4, 2008, 02:58 AM

I'm betting Leopard will be the last cat. Bring on the space names.

abijnk

Jun 4, 2008, 03:00 AM

I think those of you responding to this thread who say this is too early should really bone up on standard software development processes and cycles, and/or read the original article and what Steve Jobs said...

I think this would be a great time to demo some features and seed either in Apples closest circle of developers or, if their ready, go ahead and do a full seeding to all developers. Then, at MWSF '09 they can do a more in depth demo and give us some hard release dates.

Also, while I completely understand PPC users being upset at the idea of being forced to upgrade to Intel machines (or at least not being able to use the new features until you do), it really would be a significant step forward as far as speeding things up and shedding a lot of that redundant software that is strictly for backwards compatibility purposes.

but I secretly don't give a flip about anything except the iPhone right now...

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 03:03 AM

I can't see a drop of PPC next version, but maybe the version after at the earliest. Still no reason to drop it altogether they would still maintain PPC or POWER support even if there isn't a machine within the spec of OSX.7 just to leave the door open.

UB is still important as Apple have ARM architecture to support with in the OS builds as Mac/iPhone OSX get closer and closer together. The iPhone just wouldn't have happened without UB.

Yes, UB is also very important for the ARM chips. But, I still maintain, that UB is there for use as a bridge to go back to PPC. if apple really wanted to they could use an intel chip in the iphone/ipod touch. ARM is just an excuse to keep UB alive so apple can go back to PPC without much of a hassle.

Don

MattInOz

Jun 4, 2008, 03:04 AM

No guesses here on the name for OS X.6

But would put money on the successor for OS X being...
Apple OS C and the big change will be that the GPU will be the main processor.

Oh Yep all 3D interface and space names does sound like a chance.
Although Apple have had problems BHA

psychofreak

Jun 4, 2008, 03:07 AM

Yes, UB is also very important for the ARM chips. But, I still maintain, that UB is there for use as a bridge to go back to PPC. if apple really wanted to they could use an intel chip in the iphone/ipod touch. ARM is just an excuse to keep UB alive so apple can go back to PPC without much of a hassle.

Don

I think Apple have realised (with Boot Camp and virtualisation) that the Intel switch has more to offer than faster releases and lower power uses.

Eric S.

Jun 4, 2008, 03:18 AM

I thought the dropping PowerPC support was confirmed back when Leopard was released.

No, but it wouldn't be surprising. Abandoning Classic mode and dropping support for anything under G4/867 MHz in Leopard was a clear indicator that all PPCs would be put out to pasture soon.

I could see a new OS release sometime in 09. What I can't see is dropping the support for PowerPC, that doesn't really make sense.

Nothing wrong with Universal Binaries, and now that we are Intel (and that they had x86 support for a while), what sense does it make to not openly support PowerPC?

It's called marketing - force your customers onto new hardware. Now I wouldn't mind moving to an Intel system except that there's nothing between the underpowered Mini and the overpowered (for me) Mac Pro. Well, there's the iMac but the integrated monitor makes that a nonstarter.

I think 10.6 will drop most G4 support, perhaps allowing the high end PowerBooks. G5's will be supported through 10.7, perhaps 10.8, if OS X goes that far.

I don't see how that makes sense. 95% of the overhead of supporting PPC has to be just making any PPC release. IMO they're a lot more likely to drop PPC support altogether than restricting it a little further.

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 03:20 AM

I think Apple have realised (with Boot Camp and virtualisation) that the Intel switch has more to offer than faster releases and lower power uses.

Yes, boot camp/virtualization is great, but in my opinion the PPC macs were much more stable and reliable. the ability is the one thing that intel chips have over PPC chips. But, the forthcoming PPC chips will be much more powerful than the forthcoming Intel chips. IF you really need to use windows, go get a beige box and run windows off of that. When apple switched to Intel, it became the very thing it had fought against since 1976. Now nothing would be stopping apple from making PPC and Intel machines. IMHO. The buyer could chose between x86 and PPC?:)

Don

damacus

Jun 4, 2008, 03:29 AM

I doubt they are going to release a paid version that is mostly security and stability. Thats what the free updates are for.

On the dot. Like others have said, they REALLY need to polish Leopard to a shine. I've personally not had many problems with it, especially after 10.5.2, but in Open Directory environments, there's still a good deal left to be done before we even contemplate another version.

Also, a lot of people have only recently upgraded to Leopard. As far as institutions, most are also now getting around to rolling out Leopard. Throwing another release at them possibly 6 - 12 months from now is just going to make techs cry.

By this point the API has got to be more stable such that more can be maintained in a single major release without bumping to a new cat.

Please, Apple, 2 year cycles minimum.

Fukui

Jun 4, 2008, 03:30 AM

jacobj

Jun 4, 2008, 03:32 AM

If this is yet another thing we see at WWDC, we are really in store for a treat, just look at the potential:

(1) iPhone 2.0 Software Release
(2) App Store up and Running ahead of schedule
(3) 3g iPhone & maybe an iPhone Nano given recent rumors
(4) OSX 10.6 - LION!
(5) me.com replaces .mac

This is not to say that the older rumors aren't happening either:
(5) Macbook/Macbook Pro case re-design
(6) Mac Mini Case redesign
(7) New Cinema Displays

All of these are not going to happen, but there is potential for a really great WWDC presentation...thank goodness too considering the past two years haven't been all that exciting.

There is lies the disappointment: we're all thinking there's this and that; a dozen candidates for us to get excited about and even if only 4 or 5 of them happen that will be awesome. In my experience I get disappointed when I think like that and then watch it. So being a pragmatist I am going for 3G iphone without 32GB or GPS or upgraded camera. I am not expecting 10.6, or any new case re-designs.

I am also expecting some time dedicated to what developers have achieved with the iPhone SDK and maybe even 10 minutes on .mac (.me), but it will not be revolutionary, as it was not revolutionary last time these rumours circulated.

So, 3G iPhone (simple option), iPhone Apps, and .mac.

God I hope I'm wrong.... damn... stop it jacob... get over it... keep your expectations low and be happy.....GPS, woo hoo.... can't wait and I can finally upgrade my crappy R1 MacBook Pro that shuts off every 30 seconds.....

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 03:41 AM

Dmac77, thats 99.99999% likely NOT to happen. IMO anyways...........
To do so would negate any market share gains apple has made BECAUSE of the switch to intel............ to support two architectures requires almost double the support cost..... thats one reason why carbon is on its way out as well.....

It was just a thought that they could support two architectures (they are doing it now), I would still prefer that they go back to PPC only. Yes, I'll be the first to admit that the switch to intel helped with market share, a lot. But, you have to admit that, many of the switchers, don't have a clue about computers. I really don't think that apple would stop gaining market share if they switched back to PPC, i think it would help, because PPC chips are far superior to x86 chips. IMO anyway.

Don

EDIT: What MAJOR app that is available on Windows, isn't available on OS X?

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 04:00 AM

EDIT: What MAJOR app that is available on Windows, isn't available on OS X?

AutoCAD. But other than that it'll be harder to find other applications.

I'd be disappointed to see them drop PowerPC just yet as it keeps them on their toes from a performance perspective, especially with the G4. Additionally people will be Intel Macs soon enough, there's no need for any other persuasion.

Zwhaler

Jun 4, 2008, 04:01 AM

If 10.6 doesnt have any groundbreaking features, I think I will sit that one out. 10.5 was great in terms of new features, but perhaps Apple is running out of ideas for the future :o

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 04:03 AM

If 10.6 doesnt have any groundbreaking features, I think I will sit that one out. 10.5 was great in terms of new features, but perhaps Apple is running out of ideas for the future :o

Exchange Support and built in App-Store come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

i think it would help, because PPC chips are far superior to x86 chips. IMO anyway.

There is no opinion here, its a fact that Intel chips are faster, so I'm afraid you're wrong.

aLoC

Jun 4, 2008, 04:07 AM

Microsoft are improving a lot lately in their development practices. If Apple wants to stay ahead they have to be nimble. Which means small. Which means dropping PPC, Carbon, and even some of the deprecated Cocoa stuff.

zioxide

Jun 4, 2008, 04:09 AM

In response to the two main things in this thread:

Dropping PowerPC

Seems like a good idea to me. They can code it more efficiently if they're only working on it for Intel. PowerPC is old, outdated, and obsolete. By the time 10.6 comes out next year, it will have been 3 years since the Intel transition. This seems like a decent amount of time. Developing OS X for two platforms requires more resources and more money which could better be spent working on new features, security, etc for the new OS.

Remember, your PowerPC Macs won't stop working just because Apple doesn't support them in the new OS. You'll still be able to run Leopard fine on them (just like Tiger on G3s).

"It's too soon!!!!"

No it's not. You people act like 10.6 is going to be released next week. It's just going to be a preview. They're probably targeting a April 2009 release for 10.6, which would be 18 months after the release of Leopard. This fits right in with all of their releases so far (except for delayed Leopard).

Let's look at the release dates for all of the OS X releases:

10.0 Cheetah - March 2001
10.1 Puma - September 2001
10.2 Jaguar - August 2002
10.3 Panther - October 2003
10.4 Tiger - April 2005
10.4 Tiger/Intel - January 2006
10.5 Leopard - October 2007 (delayed from April 2007)

So, looking at that, April 2009 or so looks to be about the right timing for 10.6.

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 04:11 AM

Exchange Support and built in App-Store come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

There is no opinion here, its a fact that Intel chips are faster, so I'm afraid you're wrong.

They maybe faster but they aren't as stable, and with the upcoming PPC 6 & 7 chips intel chips are going to be inferior.

Stridder44

Jun 4, 2008, 04:14 AM

If they indeed make it Intel-only and 64-bit only then that should reduce the size and speed it up quite a bit.

(It would speed it up because the kernel can be recompiled to use the extra registers of Intel's 64-bit architecture)

That would be freaking amazing! 64-bit all the way!

Bull, all G5s and many later G4s are still quite capable machines. My Dual 1.8 is far from 'outdated' and is still a good performer in Leopard.

Dropping all PPC support would be just plain dumb. I'm not made of money and can't afford to buy a Intel desktop Mac and my needs both professionally and recreationally require a Mac Pro. iMac isn't an option for me.

My G5 as well as others are still perfectly fine at running OS X, especially the higher end ones with high end video cards.

You ≠ everyone.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 04:15 AM

If Apple wants to stay ahead they have to be nimble. Which means small.

The reason they are nimble is because Cocoa (and frankly Carbon) are better than Microsoft's equivalent API's (.NET and Win32).

Which means dropping PPC, Carbon, and even some of the deprecated Cocoa stuff.

Dropping existing code doesn't make writing new code easier, it just pisses off developers. There is no way they'd drop Carbon completely as then MS Office and Photoshop wouldn't run at all. PPC hopefully won't be dropped as I've described above.

Mykbibby

Jun 4, 2008, 04:15 AM

The landmark event in two ways is the intro of multi-touch on all macs. Perhaps the Mighty Mouse will be trumped by a new way to control a mac in Leopard.

Bingo! We have a winner!!!

That's exactly what is going to come out. Remember: You heard it here first.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 04:17 AM

That would be freaking amazing! 64-bit all the way!

No it wouldn't as they'd piss of 32 bit Mac owners some of who have Macs less than a year old, and that would reduce adoption significantly. Apple have already handled the 64 bit transition pretty well (minus dropping Carbon 64 bit), so they don't need to do anything else.

Stridder44

Jun 4, 2008, 04:27 AM

Some companies "can" walk and chew gum at the same time ;)

I'm sure the 10.6 team is cranking away and the 10.5 team is as well.

It does "feel" early but that's because Leopard was 4 months late. Clearly Apple had to shift some engineers from some depts and that likely caused the delay. Let us not forget that OS X shipped on two new platforms last year. The Apple TV and the iPhone. Now that those two products have seen a maiden voyage I expect that updates for all OS X versions to commence rather quickly

A Spring launch of 10.6 is in line with Jobs comments about OS refreshes. PPC support may be dropped and that would suck for some people but it sure would speed up testing and development not having to worry about legacy support. Leopard is a fine OS for PPC.

Quoted for truth. I'm excited about the potential 10.6! And yes, dropping PPC support would suck for some, but it's been...what, how many years? 10.5 is a fine OS for PPC. I find it funny that those who are saying 10.5 is fine the way it is are also running PPC machines. You can't deny the support/development would benefit greatly from being Intel/64-bit only.

I mean the Leopard requirements should have been a given, as it pretty much only supported the higher end G5's. Besides, no one is forcing you to upgrade. Stop throwing tantrums.

god i hope so, because leopard is FUGLY! :( I love the features, but, transparent menu bar. REFLECTIVE dock!? what the HELL were they thinkin! I do think reflectiveness has a place in a beautiful interface, but NOT how apple implemented it in leopard. About the only visual element of leopard I like better is the nice unified theme for the windows, along with the plainly obvious front window, it is very nice looking and useful. But the menu bar and dock look retched.
If I were to add some nice pretty reflectiveness to the interface it would be windows in the background reflecting, subtly, the windows in front of them, just in the area's where the window frame or whatever you want to call it is, and slightly warp it around the edges to give the windows a curved look. Basically make the mettle more realistic. Some other subtle reflectiveness could be added to buttons, etc, things that look good, and are not obtrusive or gaudy. :apple:

Totally agree. That gray look is getting very boring.

richard.mac

Jun 4, 2008, 04:37 AM

If 10.0 was the first version, then 10.5 is the sixth version.

ya your right, sorry!… i was in a hurry to go to uni.

you knew i meant the sixth anyway as i said 10.0 was the first.

PMR

Jun 4, 2008, 04:38 AM

No, it is slowly becoming outdated. In case you hadn't noticed, CPU speeds maxed out a few years ago. The fastest G5 was 2.7Ghz, and the fastest Mac today still only does 3.2Ghz.

I hope you know freq. has nothing to do with work done in a clock cycle... thus making your answer senseless.

IBM G5 cpus still fast, but they are a dead technology as they are incapable to cope with sets of instructions that latest software needs

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 04:38 AM

You can't deny the support/development would benefit greatly from being Intel/64-bit only.

Intel maybe, but they have Universal binaries so its not an issue outside of the framework development team, and if you want to make an Intel only application you can right now.

Going 64 bit only won't benefit anyone as so few applications are even 64 bit at the moment, and writing 64 bit clean code still runs/compiles on 32 bit hardware at the moment so there is no benefit there.

but they are a dead technology as they are incapable to cope with sets of instructions that latest software needs

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense.

Stridder44

Jun 4, 2008, 04:45 AM

Intel maybe, but they have Universal binaries so its not an issue outside of the framework development team, and if you want to make an Intel only application you can right now.

Going 64 bit only won't benefit anyone as so few applications are even 64 bit at the moment, and writing 64 bit clean code still runs/compiles on 32 bit hardware at the moment so there is no benefit there.

Doesn't change the fact that PPC is dead to the Mac (READ: not in general, just for Apple). It has been for a while. Again, Leopard's PPC requirements should have been a huge giant sign from Apple saying "Last call". They've been nice about it so far (Universal Binary, etc.), but it's time to let it go. Do you want OS X to become Windows and support legacy hardware forever?

This is how Apple works. This is how they've always worked. They were the first to kill off the floppy. They were the first to kill off CRTs.

JG271

Jun 4, 2008, 04:46 AM

They'd be some pretty angry Powermac G5 owners i think...
To introduce 10.6 in just a year, would just make so many people who bought leopard pay for a security update, if this rumor is to be believed.
Not only that, but pro tools users still don't have leopard plugins. It would'nt make sense to bring out a new OS so soon!

I guess apple can do what they like, because its not like they're going to lose mac users to windows!

Unless it's a free update, i can't really see this happening for at least another year.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 04:48 AM

Do you want OS X to become Windows and support legacy hardware forever?

No, I expect them to support it for around 3-6 years as they normally do.

Manic Mouse

Jun 4, 2008, 04:49 AM

mixel

Jun 4, 2008, 04:50 AM

EDIT: What MAJOR app that is available on Windows, isn't available on OS X?
3D Studio Max.. :( which is a real bummer considering how important it is in large parts of the games industry.

---

Looking forward to seeing some 10.6 features anyway.. I really wouldn't have a problem with them dropping PPC support at this point. Anything to trim out the fat - PPC isn't the future anymore.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 04:51 AM

Not only that, but pro tools users still don't have leopard plugins. It would'nt make sense to bring out a new OS so soon!

To solve that they just need to support the old OS on new hardware for a year or so, which they should do anyway, and it doesn't stop them doing new OS releases every 18 months.

It could be that 10.6 is the multi-touch version of OSX. In other words, it wouldn't have any new "core" features (such as quick look or time machine) but will instead be a reworked OS to work with multitouch. This would also explain why it would be intel and 64-bit only as only new Macs would be multi-touch capable.

This is what my money is on.

Intel only maybe, 64 bit only makes no sense yet. Apple have done the 64 bit transition well, so there is no point.

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 04:53 AM

It could be that 10.6 is the multi-touch version of OSX. In other words, it wouldn't have any new "core" features (such as quick look or time machine) but will instead be a reworked OS to work with multitouch. This would also explain why it would be intel and 64-bit only as only new Macs would be multi-touch capable.

This is what my money is on.

I still don't understand, why people want multi-touch on their notebooks/desktops, unless we're talking wacom stylus type touch, or trackpad multi-touch. Why would you want your screen to get all dirty? doesn't make sense to me. To each his own.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 04:56 AM

3D Studio Max.

Shockingly its made by Autodesk, the guys who make AutoCAD which also doesn't have a Mac version :rolleyes:.

Manic Mouse

Jun 4, 2008, 04:59 AM

I still don't understand, why people want multi-touch on their notebooks/desktops, unless we're talking wacom stylus type touch, or trackpad multi-touch. Why would you want your screen to get all dirty? doesn't make sense to me. To each his own.

Replace the bottom keyboard/tackpad of a laptop with another multi-touch display (a la the DS). Much more versatile than what we have. I would imagine this is a fairly obvious application for the technology. After the iPhone the standard keyboard/trackpad/mouse feels pretty limited.

Intel only maybe, 64 bit only makes no sense yet. Apple have done the 64 bit transition well, so there is no point.

Well the only hardware running 10.6 (were this to be true) would be 64 bit, so why not?

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 05:03 AM

Well the only hardware running 10.6 (were this to be true) would be 64 bit, so why not?

Core Duo was 32 bit ;). So the first generation of Intel Macs was 32 bit only.

richard.mac

Jun 4, 2008, 05:08 AM

Core Duo was 32 bit ;). So the first generation of Intel Macs was 32 bit only.

i can confirm this as i have a core duo MBP. damn Apple for being so secretive and me not waiting a little while longer for the core 2 duos to come out :( i could be using 64bit glory right now! and my comment would have been snappier! :D

AndyClarke

Jun 4, 2008, 05:09 AM

This just feels far to early. Or maybe time has just flown by. I would prefer Leopard with far less bugs before 10.6, or maybe 10.6 will give us bluray etc and less bugs with no other major changes to the OS. But surely this can be in a revised version of 10.5.

Will just have to wait and see...

NickFalk

Jun 4, 2008, 05:16 AM

The Problem is:

There's no cache to "OS X XI" it looks and sounds awkward.

"Oh Ess Eleven" too verbose. People will start calling it "Oh ess exx eye" as well. Expect Apple to ride the 10.x nomenclature all the way to the end.
There are no rules demanding Apple use Roman Numerals. After all OS9 wasn't called OS IX. OS 11 looks ok to me, but I don't think that will happen for a while...

BornAgainMac

Jun 4, 2008, 05:26 AM

I think the secret features that Steve Jobs talked about a few years ago were not Coverflow or the new finder (wallpaper?). Those features he was talking about were just not ready so they will include them with this 10.6 release. And I bet it will drop PowerPC support because they just can't compete with Intel's future CPUs in 2009/2010. It is ready to die like OS 9 and make the OS even more streamline and efficient.

Dmac77

Jun 4, 2008, 05:31 AM

Well the only hardware running 10.6 (were this to be true) would be 64 bit, so why not?

Core Duo's are 32 bit. If it were true that only 64 bit would be supported, a lot of early intel adopters would be pissed off.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 05:34 AM

It is ready to die like OS 9 and make the OS even more streamline and efficient.

Aside from HD space dropping PPC won't make the OS more efficient ;).

BongoBanger

Jun 4, 2008, 05:56 AM

I do know what I'm talking about. I worked for an Assistive Technology firm and trained Doctors and people with disabilities in addition to helping with ergonomic assessments. I never said it was going to be compulsory. It'll work for certain narrow uses. So what was that that you were saying again?

You said they had it all wrong. Clearly they don't.

While OS advancement may sound silly to you others realize that Apple is on the cusp of multiple transitions.

All of which require you to purchase a new operating system every 12-18 months? No, I don't think so.

From Carbon to Cocoa...from PPC to Intel and from 32-Bit to 64-bit. How long should we expect for the ship to stop rocking here?

Well, since XP has been around for seven years, kept up with technology, works fine with VBA, .NET, etc, runs on Intel and AMD architecture and has 32 and 64 bit versions all without having to buy a new OS everytime they introduced new things you tell me.

It's a rip off aimed at gullible people which, unfortunately, seems to work.

Manic Mouse

Jun 4, 2008, 06:00 AM

Core Duo was 32 bit ;). So the first generation of Intel Macs was 32 bit only.

I mean my theory, that 10.6 is only for new multi-touch Macs.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 06:02 AM

I mean my theory, that 10.6 is only for new multi-touch Macs.

No way. It might have a multi-touch option, but multi-touch only? When no multi-touch Macs are shipping? No way.

abrooks

Jun 4, 2008, 06:12 AM

They have some 17,000 employees, I'm pretty sure they can have a few thousand working on 10.6, a few thousand working on 10.5.4, and still have a couple people left to work on really advanced dev and other areas.

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Around 10,000 of those employees are retail related as well.

Ade-iMac-177

Jun 4, 2008, 06:30 AM

No - i very much doubt that 10.6 will drop PPC support, however it may have features that are intel only. i reckon that 10.7 will be intel only - and january 2009 seems a bit soon - only 15 months after leopard - perhaps june/july 2009.

Reckon it's called Cougar

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 06:43 AM

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Especially in Software, read Mythical Man Month or just about OS/360 for System/360 for why.

ziggyonice

Jun 4, 2008, 06:44 AM

I'm thinking that releasing the new edition in January 09 is awfully early. If they were to do it, I'd hope they'd make it a downloadable software update and just boost the version number up to 10.6. Especially if it's just a "stability" release.

thejadedmonkey

Jun 4, 2008, 06:46 AM

Another thing that bothers me is while you have to pay for the upgrade you also have to go out and by iLife again. Can't they simply include this with the OS for the same price???? 200 bucks is a lot to drop every year to year 1/2.

Trenton

Then be like me and don't upgrade. My mini is still running 10.3.9 :cool:

I'm hoping for some speed increases though, and more customization options. Leopard (while it mostly works amazingly well) needs refinement.

PMR

Jun 4, 2008, 06:49 AM

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense.

I'm not speaking of the OS alone, but all other software. Since all macs are intel, a lot of software is coded to take advantage of ,VT sse3, ssse3 or sse4 in the new penryns.

Why is this not making sense to you?

iDAG

Jun 4, 2008, 06:56 AM

I wouldn't think that 10.6 would drop PowerPC support. That will come in 10.7 in my opinion. I think that 10.6 would drop G4 support and only support the G5 which would be in iMac and Power Mac models. I still hope that there is still some type of major feature to be reveled that no one here knows about. :cool:

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 06:58 AM

sse3, ssse3 or sse4 in the new penryns.

I see your point, I hadn't though of that :o. But firstly existing Mac code has similar speed-ups for Altivec, and secondly when coding new stuff you only add these optimisations in at the end where they are needed so you can just use the less efficient original code for PPC customers.

officerdick

Jun 4, 2008, 07:07 AM

One thing i noticed in the iPhone SDK was that there is no quicktime framework, it is called MediaPlayer, i believe a rebrand of QuickTime will come, and a rework of it's underpinnings (as far as i know it is still mostly carbon). This makes sense because apple needs to show the world that Carbon is dead, and there is no better way to do it than rewrite all Carbon and semi-Carbon based apps, that would be QuickTime, iTunes, Final Cut Studio, and Aperture (possibly even more apps i can't recall). Other than that we will se Core Touch for desktop Mac's, and MultiTouch views/controlls for all included Applications.

PMR

Jun 4, 2008, 07:08 AM

I see your point, I hadn't though of that :o. But firstly existing Mac code has similar speed-ups for Altivec, and secondly when coding new stuff you only add these optimisations in at the end where they are needed so you can just use the less efficient original code for PPC customers.

True, but remember that even the 600mhz g4 and slower where left in the 10.4 and they can run leopard faster than a Pentium III runs XP. I don't believe they'll exclude PPC from 10.6, but maybe require a fast G5. Clock per clock G5s and G4s are pretty much the same, but they are clocked higher.

MacsRgr8

Jun 4, 2008, 07:08 AM

regarding timing of 10.6

Steve Jobs to NYTimes
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22apple.html

10.0
March 24 2001 >> base

10.1
September 25 2001 >> 6 months later

10.2
August 23 2002 >> 11 months later

10.3
October 24 2003 >> 14 months later

10.4
April 29 2005 >> 18 months later

10.5
October 26 2007 >> 30 months later
(was expected June 2007 >> 26 months later...)

So, the average time between releases might be 12-18 months, but it is pretty clear Apple have slowed down a lot.
I'm pretty sure 10.6 won't be availabe less than 2 years after the release of Leopard....
unless... unless... 10.6 will be a necessary x64 only, with major new features which Apple really want to show-off, and therefore actually have 2 operating systems available on its store.
10.6 x64 only and Leopard for everyone else, which will stay fully supported, and might get a few 10.6-features, but certainly nor more than a few (think of ZFS etc.)

Skeletal-dæmon

Jun 4, 2008, 07:10 AM

1. The timing seems right for 10.6 (Lion? Lynx? Peruvian Snow Leopard? Okay maybe not the third one...)

2. Why on earth would Apple drop the 10.X before 10.9? That makes no sense. Although they are running out of big cat names. Somehow OS 10.9 Domesticated Housecat doesn't seem to appeal so much.

3. Multitouch? But why? How would Multitouch help in iTunes? In Font Book? In EyeTV (I watch TV on my Mac.... saves so much space not needing a separate unit)? And most of all, how would multitouch benefit Terminal, or the Cocoa development tools?

4. Dropping 32-bit/PowerPC support. NO. Just plain no. Apple wouldn't do that. If the next release of OS X isn't going to have any spectacular new features and concentrate mainly on security and operability, then surely it'll run on the G4 and G5 architecture just as well as the original 32-bit Intel architecture?

Well... thats my opinion anyway. I'm open to being corrected.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 07:11 AM

One thing i noticed in the iPhone SDK was that there is no quicktime framework, it is called MediaPlayer

If this is true this is huge. Seriously Quicktime is probably Apple's worst API, its the only major one where DirectShow (the Win32 equivalent) is superior.

I thought they might do this but not this early :eek:.

Saladinos

Jun 4, 2008, 07:11 AM

I've been saying for ages that the iPhone won't be the focus of the WWDC keynote. Yes, it's a new developer platform, but the SDK has been with developers for some time, and they're familiar with what it offers.

OSX 10.6 will be the major announcement. I don't know what it'll bring, but I heavily doubt that it will be multi-touch enabled. Simply because multi-touch is great for handheld devices only. Laptops aren't handheld. You wouldn't get a laptop out on the bus or whilst waiting in a queue.

Multi-touch is only good for handheld devices where typical mouse/keyboard input methods are impractical. That makes it only suitable for tablet-style laptops, which have been a very slow market. The reason for that is that there is no use to them as a tablet. They're too big, and too heavy to carry around. And whilst touching it to use it looks cool, it offers nothing to the experience or practical value of the product.

Apple are proper engineers - they don't fix something unless its broken. They don't add things just for the cool factor. They add things that people will use.

And then there's the software. Most of the software demos you see with Windows 7's multitouch features are just gimmicks - nobody can think of a real practical use for the technology. Which is why it will fail. It works on the iPhone because you are often performing one task, and the screen is small enough to make jumping to buttons easy and not annoying. On a big screen, it gets very annoying. When multitasking, it gets very annoying.

That said, if they really did want to add a tablet in to their product lineup, it would be in the form of an updated MacBook Air. It's light enough to carry around, and not so bulky as to be a real pain. If they do update it, I wouldn't expect it until late 2009. But then, I don't expect them to create a tablet at all.

Muti-touch won't come to iMacs or ACDs as many uninformed kool-aid-addicts seem to want, because it's a stupid idea. Try touching your monitor now, whilst working at your PC. Makes your arm tired really quickly, doesn't it? Try using it for a minute. Now stop shouting about MT-ACDs, because you now know how much of a fool you are.

Yea, so sorry about the long post, but now you will hopefully see why a tablet Mac is not likely any time soon. Probably not with OSX 10.6.

thesdx

Jun 4, 2008, 07:12 AM

unless... unless... 10.6 will be a necessary x64 only, with major new features which Apple really want to show-off, and therefore actually have 2 operating systems available on its store.
10.6 x64 only and Leopard for everyone else, which will stay fully supported, and might get a few 10.6-features, but certainly nor more than a few (think of ZFS etc.)

I don't quite think that would happen. When Steve announced Mac OS X, he said they would follow a singe-OS strategy.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 07:13 AM

So, the average time between releases might be 12-18 months, but it is pretty clear Apple have slowed down a lot.

They've slowed down due to the Intel port and the iPhone. Steve Jobs announced after Leopard that they were going for releases every 12-18 months again.

@ Skeletal daemon, I completely agree with you.

elppa

Jun 4, 2008, 07:18 AM

In any event, it will almost certainly be suggested that the next version of OS X ("a history-making breakthrough release" - I can hear it now) will ship around the same time as Microsoft currently claims Windows 7 will ship..

Except sources have 10.6 pinned at 2009 and Microsoft is promising Windows 7 in 2010ish.

I can't see why people get excited about a new OS coming out every 12-18 months because, to me, it's just a way of getting more money out of gullible people.

Just because we have all in the past been treated to the “new version every four to five years-ish” release cycle from Microsoft, that is not how most software development works.

Faster increments mean you get feedback quicker and provided you have time to use that feedback to improve in a constructive manor, it will result in faster progress.

As already pointed out, Ubuntu do 6 month release cycles and they have absolutely no commercial gain. It's not about fleecing gullible customers, it's about doing the right thing in relation to the software life cycle.

Feedback keeps people honest. You can't ship a gargantuan update and have it thoroughly tested and perfect first time.

Holding all new features back for three/four/five years waiting for a “major advance” in technology that somehow justifies a new OS release is quite simply a terrible idea that is destined to lead to huge problems that blow anything in your “rusty” Leopard out of the water.

Of course as a commercial company Apple will generally charge for major OS updates (of course what they class as major might not be the same as other people's definition of major). In the end though customers have the choice — take it or leave it. Most choose to take it, not because they are gullible, but because they recognise the value provided by the new software.

Exchange Support and built in App-Store come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

There is no opinion here, its a fact that Intel chips are faster, so I'm afraid you're wrong.

Good call on the App Store, this is something various Linux distros do fairly well, so I can see Apple copying it.

In relation to Intel Chips, I too held this assumption and it certainly seems the case overall. Then a MacRumors poster who works in Photoshop for their living corrected me and said that their Dual Processor PPC G5 units are faster in some operations than the early Mac Pro units which replaced them. We never got to the bottom of why (probably altivec "the velocity engine").

Also without wanting to cover old ground on CISC vs RISC thing — one fact remains. Every major super-computing platform uses RISC processors.

I think the secret features that Steve Jobs talked about a few years ago were not Coverflow or the new finder (wallpaper?). Those features he was talking about were just not ready so they will include them with this 10.6 release.

Steve is many things and often creative with the truth. But it is also his style to under promise and over deliver. He also has a good grasp of what excites consumers about technology and what doesn't. So the “secret features” coming back is a very plausible theory.

Of course it will never be acknowledged as such publicly ("you know those top secret features in Leopard — well here they are, just not in Leopard!", doesn't sound right) and we can argue until the cows come home about whether they existed or wheterit was a just a lot of hype to con us, but between you and me I think you may be on to something here.

For me Leopard had enough new additions and improvements to justify the upgrade without the secret features, but it would be nice to see them.

MacsAttack

Jun 4, 2008, 07:20 AM

This just feels far to early. Or maybe time has just flown by.

Time has just flown by.

The timing is perfect. Announcement that OS X 10.6 is in the works and a quick look at some of the new features - probably resolution independence as one of the biggies - so Apple needs to get the developers rolling on this to ensure that their apps will work (Apple have been telling developers to work towards this for the past two releases). New file system may be ready to roll (I was glad they didn't try to rush that into 10.5). Lots of enhancements to other features.

Apple need to get 10.6 into the hands of developers within the next few months if they are to be in a position to ship it around April/May next year. In other words by the time the next dev conference comes around OS X 10.6 will be shipping.

simie

Jun 4, 2008, 07:22 AM

They should name 10.6 Ferrell Cat.

officerdick

Jun 4, 2008, 07:28 AM

If this is true this is huge. Seriously Quicktime is probably Apple's worst API, its the only major one where DirectShow (the Win32 equivalent) is superior.

I thought they might do this but not this early :eek:.

Well i am quite sure it is true, i just saw a iPhone intro video where they talked about MediaPlayer. There is a Quicktime icon though, but a new MediaPlayer icon is also shown. I think they will depricate QTKit, and extend CoreVideo to cover all what it did, in a non-carbon maner. It will make it easier for them to port Final Cut to Cocoa as well.

BongoBanger

Jun 4, 2008, 07:35 AM

Just because we have all in the past been treated to the “new version every four to five years-ish” release cycle from Microsoft, that is not how most software development works.

Actually it is. It's usually a three year cycle though.

Faster increments mean you get feedback quicker and provided you have time to use that feedback to improve in a constructive manor, it will result in faster progress.

Yes, we call the outputs of this 'free service packs', 'patches' and 'free updates'.

As already pointed out, Ubuntu do 6 month release cycles and they have absolutely no commercial gain.

Possibly because it's a non-commercial , developmental platform? I use Ubuntu and like it but I sure as hell wouldn't pay for a new version every six months.

It's not about fleecing gullible customers, it's about doing the right thing in relation to the software life cycle.

Sure. That's why there are such huge differences between the variants of OSX 10 - with the exception of the jump from Tiger to Leopard which did take about three years and put in two major new features - and why they couldn't have been added in Service Packs.

Or not.

Feedback keeps people honest. You can't ship a gargantuan update and have it thoroughly tested and perfect first time.

Which is why MS use Windows Update to freely distribute amendments.

Holding all new features back for three/four/five years waiting for a “major advance” in technology that somehow justifies a new OS release is quite simply a terrible idea that is destined to lead to huge problems that blow anything in your “rusty” Leopard out of the water.

Except, of course, XP was quite capable of dealing with any of the major advances in technology over the last seven years with one paid for release and free support.

Of course as a commercial company Apple will generally charge for major OS updates (of course what they class as major might not be the same as other people's definition of major).

Whilst others don't charge at all.

In the end though customers have the choice — take it or leave it.

Which is where the gullible part comes in.

Most choose to take it, not because they are gullible, but because they recognise the value provided by the new software.

Sure they do. Most take it because it's shiny and new.

officerdick

Jun 4, 2008, 07:36 AM

Just to back my previous claim http://developer.apple.com/iphone/library/navigation/Frameworks/MediaPlayer/index.html

MacsRgr8

Jun 4, 2008, 07:44 AM

They've slowed down due to the Intel port and the iPhone. Steve Jobs announced after Leopard that they were going for releases every 12-18 months again.

@ Skeletal daemon, I completely agree with you.

I know he said that, but how much chance do you give a fully working 10.6 release on April 2009 (which is 18 months after Leopard, only 10 months from now)?
I mean the problems encountered with Leopard (don't forget they like to release the Server version simultaneously) blamed on the iPhone development, shows how much time it takes to create a feature rich OS.
The Intel-port is not the case. Steve said Mac OS X has been running a "secret life", i.e. native on Intel since 10.0 (personally I feel you can state Mac OS X's roots are very much x86 anyway with OPENSTEP...). Added the fact that the iPhone 2.0 software is also very much in development ATM, I think it'll be closer to 24 months before 10.6 is released, certainly if Apple wants a single OS strategy.
Maybe this WWDC Steve could mention what they are up to, show us a road map of future Mac OS X releases (like he did back in '98 talking about Mac OS 8.5 8.6, 9 and X).
But, of course... Apple has surprised me many times. :D

AdeFowler

Jun 4, 2008, 07:52 AM

I'm all for dropping PPC, and I only own PPC machines (currently).

Just because 10.6 won't run on a PPC doesn't make your PPC stop working. It just means eventually you'll have to buy a new machine if you want the latest OS features.

Agree 100%. Both my macs are PPC and I wouldn't have a hissy fit if Apple's next OS didn't work on them. As it stands I'm still running Tiger on my G5 because of Leopard's issues with CS3.

officerdick

Jun 4, 2008, 07:53 AM

Agree 100%. Both my macs are PPC and I wouldn't have a hissy fit if Apple's next OS didn't work on them. As it stands I'm still running Tiger on my G5 because of Leopard's issues with CS3.

That would be CS3's issues with Leopard ;)

aussie_geek

Jun 4, 2008, 08:07 AM

No way - leopard has only been out for a little while.

My theory is that Apple will release 10.6 before the official Microsoft shipping date for windows 7. MS will no doubtably have problems and push the date back.

aussie_geek

skillwill

Jun 4, 2008, 08:08 AM

People who are moaning that they are seeding 10.6 too soon are the same people that will be moaning when 10.6 comes out that it's unreliable/rushed/buggy etc.

These same people are saying Apple shouldn't rush things - so why are they complaining that Apple is starting development on the new OS a 10 months/1 year/ even a year and a half before the release - if you ask me, that's not rushing the release, that's using the time they have sensibly - why leave the testing a few months when you can start now and make an even better OS system - rather than start in 5 months time and then have to rush it.

MagicBoy

Jun 4, 2008, 08:10 AM

So will 10.6 (Scottish Wildcat) also drop support for Core Duo users like myself?

BongoBanger

Jun 4, 2008, 08:19 AM

carrjar

Jun 4, 2008, 08:21 AM

All of these are not going to happen, but there is potential for a really great WWDC presentation...thank goodness too considering the past two years haven't been all that exciting.

Yeah, iPhone...Yawn. ??

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 08:21 AM

Well i am quite sure it is true, i just saw a iPhone intro video where they talked about MediaPlayer. There is a Quicktime icon though, but a new MediaPlayer icon is also shown. I think they will depricate QTKit, and extend CoreVideo to cover all what it did, in a non-carbon maner. It will make it easier for them to port Final Cut to Cocoa as well.

Sounds perfectly sensible to me.

I know he said that, but how much chance do you give a fully working 10.6 release on April 2009 (which is 18 months after Leopard, only 10 months from now)?

Very high. By June 2009, practically 100%. Remember that the iPhone is now out so they should be going on with their own team. Its far less efficient to get another team to help significantly for a start.

Yes, we call the outputs of this 'free service packs', 'patches' and 'free updates'.

There is no way you can compare that to a full OS release. Yes they released significant improvements to Windows Media Player, and to a lesser extent Internet Explorer, but Apple releases iTunes/Quicktime and Safari like that too...

Sure. That's why there are such huge differences between the variants of OSX 10 - with the exception of the jump from Tiger to Leopard which did take about three years and put in two major new features - and why they couldn't have been added in Service Packs.

Well yes, the difference between 10.1 and 10.2 and 10.2 and 10.3 seem to have been significant, and the changes between 10.3 and 10.4 were cerrtainly more comparable to the changes between XP and Vista than any Service Pack. (EDIT: For example in 10.4 Spotlight was added, as was Automator and Dashboard (though these are less useful) Improvements were made to Safari and Mail, and from a developer perspective Core Audio, Core Video, Core Image and Core Data were added)

Which is why MS use Windows Update to freely distribute amendments.

So does Apple. The more interesting MS add-ons are only available if you trawl through their website so that they can then sell them in the next OS version.

Except, of course, XP was quite capable of dealing with any of the major advances in technology over the last seven years with one paid for release and free support.

That's because XP was better than Mac OS X 10.0/10.1 (and frankly 10.2), the same doesn't apply now.

Sure they do. Most take it because it's shiny and new.

And Vista is just flying off the shelves onto peoples existing PC's.

You do realise that Leopard was late too, right?

Which was down to the iPhone's initial release and them needing to develop for that.

kornyboy

Jun 4, 2008, 08:25 AM

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

I'm interested to see the new features but I do think it will still be a bit early to seed to developers. It will also be a bit of a bummer if they discontinue PowerPC support but that day had to come sometime.

elppa

Jun 4, 2008, 08:26 AM

As always, I'm not going to agree.

Actually it is. It's usually a three year cycle though.

Please give me some examples of a major consumer software product on three year release cycles from a company outside Redmond, Washington. When you are trying to establish a product, you increment quickly. I can't think of any application in my applications folder which has not had at least one update within three years. Most have had more. Many have been updated this year.

Yes, we call the outputs of this 'free service packs', 'patches' and 'free updates'.

Who is we?

Also, Apple too releases these patches and updates for free. They also have major releases as well. Patches and point updates do not add features. The major releases do.

Possibly because it's a non-commercial , developmental platform? I use Ubuntu and like it but I sure as hell wouldn't pay for a new version every six months.

You miss the point.

It is precisely because it is non-commercial that it is a good example.

The Ubuntu team are free to do the best thing in relation to the release cycle rather than being motivated by business and commerical constraints.

And guess what? They choose increment quickly. All this does is validate Apple's decision to increment quickly.

Sure. That's why there are such huge differences between the variants of OSX 10 - with the exception of the jump from Tiger to Leopard which did take about three years and put in two major new features - and why they couldn't have been added in Service Packs.

Or not.

Um actually I think you underestimate the differences to be honest. If you gave OS 10.4 to someone running OS 10.2 and ask to compare they would find plenty of improvements. For developers the differences are even more pronounced.10.3 -> 10.4 saw huge changes at the Kernel level. Each version has added new frameworks all the bundled apps received updates and overhauls. We also got new bundled applications with each release as well.

I've used all releases, I notice differences that I feel I am justified in paying for. Many others agree. If you don't then you can choose to skip the updates.

Which is why MS use Windows Update to freely distribute amendments.

So do Apple. They use Apple Software Update to freely distribute amendments. Then when they have a new release, they ship it as a shrink-wrapped product.

Except, of course, XP was quite capable of dealing with any of the major advances in technology over the last seven years with one paid for release and free support.

Your first told me that you only need a new OS for major changes in technology and now you are telling me you don't need a new OS for major changes in technology because Windows XP can handle them all. Doesn't sound right to me.

Whilst others don't charge at all.

Apple also don't sell support contracts and per seat licences. Microsoft do. Both companies make their money in different ways, Apple is consumer focussed, Microsoft is business focussed. This comparison has little merit. Companies who sell Linux server solutions are selling the support contracts and not the software, because the software is free. They are different models.

If Microsoft could get away with charging for service packs then believe me, they would. But they can't justify because service packs don't add significant new features. And even if they did, businesses wouldn't pay for them anyway.

Which is where the gullible part comes in.

No, this is where the “take it or leave it” bit comes in. Plenty of Mac users are still on Tiger. Some have upgraded or brought new machines with Leopard. Some are happy running old machines with Panther or Jaguar.

Sure they do. Most take it because it's shiny and new.

Assuming all Mac users are gullible and have no grasp of technology.

Fact is we need to progress. Businesses don't like change in Software (for very good reasons) and like to stay conservative.

But in the consumer space people are open to good, new, innovative ideas and things that will make their lives easier.

Reading between the lines, all of the above seems like a lot of bluster to conceal two points:
[A] You don't see much value in good software.
[B] You'd rather not pay at all, or at least not very often.
[C] You can't distinguish between the requirements of the consumer space and the business space.

That's all weel and good, that's where most average people stand (most of my friends as well). But you should be upfront about it.

Hawkeye411

Jun 4, 2008, 08:33 AM

What about 10.6 Ragdoll? (JK)

It would be cool to get a teaser about the possible future direction for OS X.

Cheers.
:):apple:

Digitalclips

Jun 4, 2008, 08:43 AM

If released that soon, that would only fuel PC fanboy's claim that Apple makes you pay for Service Packs.....

But not if OS S 10.6 Coon Cat has 3D interface, holographic visual displays and reads you mind for auto complete :)

BongoBanger

Jun 4, 2008, 08:44 AM

There is no way you can compare that to a full OS release. Yes they released significant improvements to Windows Media Player, and to a lesser extent Internet Explorer, but Apple releases iTunes/Quicktime and Safari like that too...

Let's see...

XP had Program Access Defaults, USB 2.0 support, .NET framework support, bluetooth support, enhanced security...

I could go on but you see the point. These updates were free.

Well yes, the difference between 10.1 and 10.2 seems to have been significant, and the changes between 10.3 and 10.4 are more comparable to XP and Vista than any Service Pack.

Disagree. Name the differences and I'll explain why. Whilst you're at it explain why they couldn't be consolidated. As for 10.3 and 10.4, rubbish. Tiger and Leopard maybe, but Panther and Tiger? Please.

So does Apple. The more interesting MS add-ons are only available if you trawl through their website so that they can then sell them in the next OS version.

Yup, they do.

That's because XP was better than Mac OS X 10.0/10.1 (and frankly 10.2), the same doesn't apply now.

And, let's be honest here, 10.3 and 10.4.

[qquote]And Vista is just flying off the shelves onto peoples existing PC's.[/quote]

But that's just the point. PC users don't have to upgrade because there's no need to until a new PC is bought. I'm going to guarantee you that when most individual PC users upgrade their units - which they do every three years or so - they'll have Vista on it. In the meantime XP does everything it needs to and supports all the applications they need.

PC users don't generally upgrade their OS on new release because there's no need to unless you need the upgraded version for a specific reason like, say DirectX 10 for gamers. This despite the fact that Vista is better than XP. XP is good enough for most people so why upgrade when you don't have to?

Which was down to the iPhone's initial release and them needing to develop for that.

Wow! You really do fall for anything Apple's PR come out with, don't you? Obviously Vista's delay was due to the development of WinMo 6.0 then.

diamond.g

Jun 4, 2008, 08:53 AM

Exchange Support
Why would Apple build a proprietary MS technology into their next OS? (Has Apple ever done that?)

They maybe faster but they aren't as stable, and with the upcoming PPC 6 & 7 chips intel chips are going to be inferior.
Could you point me to some info on the upcoming PPC chips? If it is to be based on the POWER arch then you may be a little disappointed (think Cell).

Digitalclips

Jun 4, 2008, 08:54 AM

So will 10.6 (Scottish Wildcat) also drop support for Core Duo users like myself?

Only for the users in Manchester. The rest have Intel Core Duos ;)

MacVault

Jun 4, 2008, 08:56 AM

Whenever the next OS X comes out Apple had better re-vamp the GUI - like get rid of the stupid rounded, bubbly, blue, shadowed scroll bars and button elements, etc. These UI elements are so GAY :mad:

iMat77

Jun 4, 2008, 09:00 AM

OS X "catwoman", at least it's going to be a sexy release :D

I still maintain the idea that 10.6 will be previewed at WWDC because that's what the meeting is all about (developers and not consumers).

And that 10.6 is the last cat we are going to see. Apple, if they play smart, will release OS 11 in time or just before Windows 7, also because of the marketing impact of such a move. Microsoft releases a new OS and so will Apple, otherwise Microsoft might start the mantra "ours is a new version while Apple is still "completing" their OS 10 version. Apple's marketing is too smart for that. MARKETING, I am not talking about which features will justify a change in name.

As for being time for 10.6 (and then start with OS 11).

10.6 is the first OS from Apple which has to take into account, from the start, the whole range of products and services (iPhone (2.0), AppleTV take 2, TouchPad (pinch and stuff)).
These things will be integrated and made similar throught the entire OSX line in a polished and uniform way (they still have to find a suitable FrontRow interface, currently there are 2 (computer and AppleTV).
Also: never thought that the whole "me.com" history might be related in part with 10.6? It might be launched now, but to reach it's full potential the whole system has to take it into account (such as iLife does with .mac).

iPhone, AppleTV, "pinch and stuff gestures", ZFS, Cocoa.... All these things will have to be integrated in a thought through manner in the OS. And that's where the "fixes and security" of OS 10.6 comes from in my opinion. Apple will surely add some "oooooh" factor to push sales (should they decide to sell that version of OS X).

10.6 being done, I personally think it will then be time to develop a new OS from ground up (they are most likely already doing it, albeit in a more elegant manner than Redmont (i.e. without constantly bragging about this or the other feat. that might or might not make it into the final OS).
The new OS should be built around the idea that various "declinations" of it will have to fit different devices, still keeping the same framework and concept all the way. Apple's already doing it well (no programmer but from what I read it is my understanding that they handled the introduction of devices like the iPhone and AppleTV well from a software perspective).

A line between past and future is suited at this point.

OS XI might run in all iPods (increasing the features that are available (Nike + and may others), all iPhones (maybe more than one model), evtl Newton like device, AppleTV and, of course, all Macintosh computers.

That's how I see it and why I think 10.6 is the last...

(sorry for the long post)

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 09:01 AM

XP had Program Access Defaults,

To comply with anti-trust law.

USB 2.0 support,

So did Apple (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25524).

.NET framework support,

As it shipped about 2 months after XP did, it was fairly obviously because it wasn't ready yet.

bluetooth support,

True, but its hardly a major change.

enhanced security...

True, they basically had to though thanks to Blaster.

EDIT: So we are left with bluetooth support, and possibly the security. However there is no way they'd have got away with charging for that, however much they'd have liked to.

Name the differences and I'll explain why.

Already done in my last post.

But that's just the point. PC users don't have to upgrade because there's no need to until a new PC is bought. I'm going to guarantee you that when most individual PC users upgrade their units - which they do every three years or so - they'll have Vista on it. In the meantime XP does everything it needs to and supports all the applications they need.

Why do I need to buy Leopard? EDIT: And you're contradicting yourself, you said people are only buying Mac OS X versions because its "new and shiny", but that has been added in spades in Vista and they are sticking with XP.

Wow! You really do fall for anything Apple's PR come out with, don't you? Obviously Vista's delay was due to the development of WinMo 6.0 then.

Got a better theory? Especially as the seeds practically stopped as soon as Leopard was originally announced.

Why would Apple build a proprietary MS technology into their next OS? (Has Apple ever done that?)

They have on the iPhone.

spudgeek

Jun 4, 2008, 09:01 AM

TuffLuffJimmy

Jun 4, 2008, 09:01 AM

These UI elements are so GAY :mad:

Umm care to rephrase?

BongoBanger

Jun 4, 2008, 09:08 AM

Please give me some examples of a major consumer software product on three year release cycles from a company outside Redmond, Washington. When you are trying to establish a product, you increment quickly. I can't think of any application in my applications folder which has not had at least one update within three years. Most have had more. Many have been updated this year.

Most commercial PC games, main release games console software, cubase (prob closer to two years), Lotus Notes (although the gap between 7.0 and 8.0 is only a year).

See.

Who is we?

The people who don't pay for things which companies recognise shoud be freely provided.

Also, Apple too releases these patches and updates for free. They also have major releases as well. Patches and point updates do not add features. The major releases do.

So it is "Oh shiny!" then?

You miss the point.

It is precisely because it is non-commercial that it is a good example.

No, no it isn't because you're not paying for it. See the difference?

The Ubuntu team are free to do the best thing in relation to the release cycle rather than being motivated by business and commerical constraints.

Great! When can we see Apple releasing OSX updates for free then?

And guess what? They choose increment quickly.

Then they wait for feedback to see if it worked or not. Something you don't get away with when releasing commercial products. Or maybe so if you look at Microsoft's semi-official habit of beta testin on the public or the fun and games with 'Leoptard'.

Um actually I think you underestimate the differences to be honest. If you gave OS 10.4 to someone running OS 10.2 and ask to compare they would find plenty of improvements.

As you would with XP original and XP SP3.

For developers the differences are even more pronounced.10.3 -> 10.4 saw huge changes at the Kernel level. Each version has added new frameworks all the bundled apps received updates and overhauls. We also got new bundled applications with each release as well.

Whereas MS did it all in one between Me and XP and charged once for it.

I've used all releases, I notice differences that I feel I am justified in paying for. Many others agree. If you don't then you can choose to skip the updates.

Fine. Your choice.

Your first told me that you only need a new OS for major changes in technology and now you are telling me you don't need a new OS for major changes in technology because Windows XP can handle them all. Doesn't sound right to me.

No, I said XP can handle most things. Vista is better, there's just no need to upgrade at the moment unless you're a gamer.

Apple also don't sell support contracts and per seat licences. Microsoft do.

Nor does Apple sell reduced price OEM versions.

Both companies make their money in different ways, Apple is consumer focussed, Microsoft is business focussed. This comparison has little merit. Companies who sell Linux server solutions are selling the support contracts and not the software, because the software is free. They are different models.

I agree. Both companies understand their markets.

If Microsoft could get away with charging for service packs then believe me, they would. But they can't justify because service packs don't add significant new features. And even if they did, businesses wouldn't pay for them anyway.

Well they actually do include new features but you're right: No-one would pay for them.

No, this is where the “take it or leave it” bit comes in. Plenty of Mac users are still on Tiger. Some have upgraded or brought new machines with Leopard. Some are happy running old machines with Panther or Jaguar.

See, there are some sensible people in the world.

Assuming all Mac users are gullible and have no grasp of technology.

I would extend that to "the majority of all PC or Mac users".

Fact is we need to progress. Businesses don't like change in Software (for very good reasons) and like to stay conservative.

It's more stability and conformity than conservatism.

But in the consumer space people are open to good, new, innovative ideas and things that will make their lives easier.

Yup. Agree here.

Reading between the lines, all of the above seems like a lot of bluster to conceal two points:

LOLno. You actually make three points in any case.

[A] You don't see much value in good software.

Oh I do. I just don't believe in paying for minor bells and whistles every year.

[B] You'd rather not pay at all, or at least not very often.

I think you'll find that true for most people.

[C] You can't distinguish between the requirements of the consumer space and the business space.

Really?

*Looks at computer OS profiles*

Nope, think you're wrong there because otherwise every PC user would be upgrading to Vista and they're not.

That's all weel and good, that's where most average people stand (most of my friends as well). But you should be upfront about it.

Right, except the stats show you're wrong. Please don't confuse "you and your friends" with most people, k?

tmelvin

Jun 4, 2008, 09:11 AM

My guess is that Apple are positioning themselves for a new release or new version with Touchscreen support. Steve will not want Windows 7 to leap ahead of OSX on the features/capabilities front. Microsoft have announced Windows 7 to be GA by end of 2009... not that it will actually work by then :)

End of '09? Add 3 - 6 months on to the end of that. Then they'll begin to strip out anything of substance, like they did with Longhorn. By the time it is ready for GA, it'll be nothing more than Vista SP?, with a couple of free pieces of junk to entice folks, like a new Media player, or a couple of extra clocks for the Sidebar.

I've given up on Windoze. I use it at work, but getting fed up. I've started using my Macbook when possible. It's at about 50% now. Can't wait to get to 100%!

BongoBanger

Jun 4, 2008, 09:13 AM

Why do I need to buy Leopard?

Bingo.

EDIT: And you're contradicting yourself, you said people are only buying Mac OS X versions because its "new and shiny", but that has been added in spades in Vista and they are sticking with XP.

New and shiny means having a few new features like, say, Time Machine and Spaces. It's nothing to do with appearance.

We could argue this back and forth but I really don't think there's much value. You and others are happy getting a new OS every 12-18 months, the vast majority of computer users don't see the need.

Each to their own I suppose.

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 09:17 AM

Most commercial PC games, main release games console software

Examples please.

cubase (prob closer to two years).

Looking at their version history on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubase) they look like they release annually to me.

Bingo.

What the hell is your argument?

You claimed that Microsoft gives significant features away in service packs for free, well unless you count Bluetooth as a major feature you are wrong.

You claimed that Mac OS X versions didn't add anything significant compared to say XP/Vista, but in Tiger they released a similar number of new features to Vista, even if we count things like WPF which isn't actually in use yet.

New and shiny means having a few new features like, say, Time Machine and Spaces. It's nothing to do with appearance.

Which are actually worth money...

Vista is better, there's just no need to upgrade at the moment unless you're a gamer.

What new features has Vista got for gaming? Direct X 10? It only just is drawing level with Direct X 9 in performance.

richard.mac

Jun 4, 2008, 09:22 AM

…
10.4
April 29 2005 >> 18 months later

10.5
October 26 2007 >> 30 months later
(was expected June 2007 >> 26 months later...)

So, the average time between releases might be 12-18 months, but it is pretty clear Apple have slowed down a lot.
I'm pretty sure 10.6 won't be availabe less than 2 years after the release of Leopard....
unless... unless... 10.6 will be a necessary x64 only, with major new features which Apple really want to show-off, and therefore actually have 2 operating systems available on its store.
10.6 x64 only and Leopard for everyone else, which will stay fully supported, and might get a few 10.6-features, but certainly nor more than a few (think of ZFS etc.)

the a lot larger gap between Tiger and Leopard is because there were actually two versions of Tiger, PPC and Intel. so there was a lot more work to be done on Tiger than there was for Leopard and future OSs.

i think Steve Jobs now wants to start releasing new versions in a quicker time period that was between Tiger and Leopard.

BlizzardBomb

Jun 4, 2008, 09:22 AM

"Mac OS X 10.6, now featuring resolution indepen... Wait a minute, what's that, iPhone 2? OK scrap that feature." ;)

But on a more serious note, January 2009 sounds good to me as it's right before my buying schedule - although I'm guessing it'll be released a little later than that, Apple would probably want a little more time and people are tighter with money straight after the holiday season. Hoping they refine the UI a bit more (Illuminous would be awesome though :D), but apart from that Leopard (and even Tiger) is pretty packed with features as it is.

rml4uk

Jun 4, 2008, 09:29 AM

Since it's not supposed to be be a bonafide upgrade, it will probably just get a small name change, like snow leopard or something (Haha) The next big update will most likely be called Lion (I don't know if we already knew that) If you go to Wikipedia and search big cats, Apple has used all of the species of official big cats as OS names, except Lion. After that, I don't know what they are going to call their OS because all the big cat names will have been used... could this be the end of Apple!?

PS,
I do like one of the early poster's suggestion of Liger. Although they don't exist in the wild, Lions and Tigers have bred in zoos to create Ligers. They're huge...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger

Denarius

Jun 4, 2008, 09:31 AM

A new release every 12-18 months strikes me as over the top and I can see it becoming a real headache for developers trying to keep up, as well as my reservations as to whether new features can be developped, tested and debugged in that timescale. Besides, at that rate I'd be inclined to start skipping every other release.

Can't see the move to OS XI coming for some time, surely that would imply something like a whole interface redesign, which I can't see a point to as I'm more than happy with the Aqua/UNIX partnership, personally.

Oh to all the OSX/Linux/XP fanboys looking for a slagging match, how about starting a new thread that you can all go to rather than going over the same arguments on every other thread that's got nothing to do with it?

diamond.g

Jun 4, 2008, 09:31 AM

They have on the iPhone.

Good point. I wonder how much MS would charge Apple for that kind of support in the desktop OS X. It would seem like it goes against Mac Office sales and licensing is lost.

You have to have a separate device license for each mobile device connected. Exchange clients need a license for each user, MS gets money from the sale of Office (Outlook/Entourage) which seems like it would be lost if Apple were to include MAPI support in 10.6.

brn2ski00

Jun 4, 2008, 09:32 AM

Isn't a 10.6 release very premature given Apple's history of releasing OSs?!

If it were to be released, I am banking on "Cougar"

Eraserhead

Jun 4, 2008, 09:33 AM

Good point. I wonder how much MS would charge Apple for that kind of support in the desktop OS X.

Whatever the standard rate is I imagine.

It would seem like it goes against Mac Office sales and licensing is lost.

Exchange support isn't very good in Mac Office that's the problem, so there is no loss there.

A new release every 12-18 months strikes me as over the top and I can see it becoming a real headache for developers trying to keep up,

They don't make that many changes each time. My application with 40k lines of code from Tiger worked on Leopard with no changes at all.

diamond.g

Jun 4, 2008, 09:41 AM

Whatever the standard rate is I imagine.
Exchange support isn't very good in Mac Office that's the problem, so there is no loss there.

Okay, cool..

On a more relevant note, I look forward to a ZFS enabled Time Machine backup system.

Mal

Jun 4, 2008, 09:41 AM

Since it's not supposed to be be a bonafide upgrade,

Huh? How do you figure that?

jW

Intarweb

Jun 4, 2008, 09:49 AM

How about making Leopard a solid OS before releasing another OS?

Epicurus

Jun 4, 2008, 09:53 AM

The way I see it, if Apple wants to release 10.6 anytime from January '09 to June '09, then this will be the only WWDC where they'll get a chance to properly introduce it to the developers. If I remember correctly, Leopard was talked about at two consecutive WWDC's (and I don't think that went over too well with some people, since the second time around lacked a lot of the 'pzazz' of the first time through). Still, it looks like Apple is more likely to keep pushing the Mac developers to adopt current Leopard technologies by giving a few insights into how important they'll be when 10.6 comes out. That means showing some of their hand when it comes to the new features 10.6 will bring to the table.

Perhaps too we will see some of the well known yet not fully "blessed" developments get the time in the spotlight they deserver, such as Jobs making the final push for resolution independence and talking up ZFS. At the very least, by showing the Mac developers that they are still hard at work putting together a new Mac OS, Apple might avoid bruising any egos. After all, this is the first WWDC where iPhone developers are on an equal playing field with the Mac crews. If we're all expecting half the keynote to be about the iPhone SDK, what exactly are we supposed to expect for the Mac people if not a discussion of 10.6?