Apple Seeds First Version of Mac OS X 10.5.4 to Developers

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Only one week after the release (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/05/28/apple-releases-mac-os-x-10-5-3/) of Mac OS X 10.5.3, Apple has already started seeding developers with the first version of Mac OS X 10.5.4 (build 9E6). The latest developer seed lists no known issues and details only a handful of fixes to Mac OS X. Apple appears to be aggressively seeding developers with the latest builds of Mac OS X and waiting only days between builds.

This release comes only days head of Apple's Worldwide Developer's Conference which is rumored to introduce us to Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/04/mac-os-x-10-6-called-snow-leopard-all-cocoa/)), Apple's next major Mac OS X version. As typical, Apple will continue to work on bug fixes on the current version of Mac OS X while the new version is readied. There is no known timeframe for the 10.5.4 release but Apple can wait months between these maintenance releases.



Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/05/apple-seeds-first-version-of-mac-os-x-10-5-4-to-developers/)

[4God]

Dang, already? Seems like we'll see more frequent updates as indicated by Steve during previous keynotes.

[Watabou]

Wow. Apple's working hard I see. Just wow....already?

[carve]

Dang man, I want to be a developer!

[epanov]

release 10.4.12! :cool:

[FightTheFuture]

i'm actually surprised by this as a lot of people i work with tell me that 10.5.3 has fixed a ton of their problems with 10.5.2. maybe Apple is being proactive and wants to get the fixes out faster than how long 10.5.3 took.

[avigalante]

How is this possible?! :confused:

10.6 on the horizon alongside constant updates to 10.5... insanity. We JUST upgraded to 10.5.3 last week!

[scotty56]

wow this company has been busy lately..:rolleyes:

[ayeying]

at this rate, we might hit 10.5.9 by the time 10.6 is officially released. lol

[Saladinos]

Indicates one of two things:

They haven't branched 10.6 yet, and want a stable codebase
They've been busy on 10.6, but problems with Leopard are so widespread they're having to peg it back and do some major plumbing

[Mac OS X Ocelot]

Indicates one of two things:

They haven't branched 10.6 yet, and want a stable codebase
They've been busy on 10.6, but problems with Leopard are so widespread they're having to peg it back and do some major plumbing


False dichotomy much?

3) They do regular updates of operating systems.

[bdkennedy1]

I'm guessing 10.6 will be a major/minor release similar in that Windows XP SP2 was a major/minor release.

Then a year after 10.6 will be 10.7 to go head to head with Windows 7 in 2010.

It is also possible that 10.6 will be available in 2010 with Leopard going past the 10.5.10 mark.

Yes... far fetched. But we're talking rumors here. But regardless, we should keep in mind that Apple is going to have something ready in January 2010 to compete with Windows 7.

[RTee]

yea but it's the first seed, there'll be a few more so it's good to know that they're busy!

[allomerus]

If Snow Leopard really is the name for 10.6, then the implication is that 10.6 will be an incremental upgrade, perhaps sold at a low cost. I agree therefore that 10.6 is a behind-the-scenes jobby that paves the way for 10.7, which will go up against windows 7.

[Kelmon]

i'm actually surprised by this as a lot of people i work with tell me that 10.5.3 has fixed a ton of their problems with 10.5.2. maybe Apple is being proactive and wants to get the fixes out faster than how long 10.5.3 took.

I'd agree that 10.5.3 fixes a lot of bugs, but it also introduced some new ones (possibly even brought some dead ones back). All the current issues that I am experiencing appear to be related to 10.5.3's handling of PAC files, used to automatically define a proxy server for connecting to the network and Internet at large. This caused issues in 10.5.0 (for example, .mac syncing would perpetually crash until you turned it off) and was (I think) fixed in 10.5.1. With 10.5.3 there are problems again with .mac syncing when I'm at work (the process dotmacsyncclient will consume 100% of a processor until you kill it) and I can no longer connect to the iTunes Store without iTunes crashing. The only option is either to define the proxy server settings manually or wait until I get home before attempting any of the above. Both issues are pretty well documented on the Apple Discussion forums and I'm definitely not the only one having these issues.

Here's hoping that 10.5.4 will be released soon and that it nukes these silly issues again.

[stenosis.kill]

Anybody know what Apple has changed in this first build?

[Eric Cartmac]

Dare I admit it... I'm on 10.4.11 I confess! I also confess 10.4.11 is a VERY finely tuned machine. Black Macbook used 7 days a week, always in and out of standby, and I just don't reboot or have crashes ever. That's with VMWare and other apps always open.

Bring on 10.4.12!

[HyperZboy]

My 867MHz Powermac G4 Quicksilver has been indexing & kernel panicking for like 3 days now with 10.5.3.

Should I just give up on Leopard for this SUPPOSEDLY SUPPORTED MAC or just wait for the class action lawsuit that pays me $9.75 on my $129 purchase ???

:(

[MartiNZ]

I'm going to fall on the side of 'they're realising they need to speed up fixes and not break stuff in the process'. I also like the idea of the snow leopard. Only a few days to wait to find out ... at least something, now.

[tobian]

My 867MHz Powermac G4 Quicksilver has been indexing & kernel panicking for like 3 days now with 10.5.3.

Should I just give up on Leopard for this SUPPOSEDLY SUPPORTED MAC or just wait for the class action lawsuit that pays me $9.75 on my $129 purchase ???

:(

the same here.

looks like my 867 QS isn´t supported machine for Leopard. Freezing up 2 - X times a day, but working flawlessly under 10.4.11.

[mckyvlle]

I'd agree that 10.5.3 fixes a lot of bugs, but it also introduced some new ones (possibly even brought some dead ones back).

If you like playing retro games, 10.5.3 removed 256-colour support on Macs with Intel GMA X3100 integrated graphics and Penryn-based MacBook Pros.

I Certainly hope 10.5.4 brings back these lost features!

[lloydh]

My 867MHz Powermac G4 Quicksilver has been indexing & kernel panicking for like 3 days now with 10.5.3.


http://bumppo.net/archives/2008/05/colonel-panic-seeks-generalissimo-chillpill

Might be worth a look.

[Jonny75]

I think the fact 10.5.4 is being seeded only ONE WEEK after 10.5.3 shows Leopard is a huge lump of a mistake. Indeed, talk of rapid change to 10.6 suggests Leopard is being abandoned for a re-write of the OS. A tacit admission of failure.

Leopard has been a disaster for users, breaking machines, frequently crashing (and ruining the previous excellent stability record of OS X) and being pathetic with wifi.

I am lucky to have two Macs, my main being an iMac, but I have a Powerbook 12". Whilst I have opted to upgrade the iMac, the Powerbook remains on Tiger and the difference shows. There have been times I have had to turn to the Powerbook for reliability of the OS to complete work. There are no wifi problems with the PB - despite the Al casing - whilst the iMac hangs... sitting next to the laptop. There are some on this forum who consistently deny there are problems with Leopard's wifi handling, blaming ISPs and hardware. Ask any Apple Store Genius and they will tell you what we all know: Leopard breaks wifi. Indeed they are fed up with half their daily work appeasing Leopard users with problems that needs OS fixes and can't be solved in store.

I am not a power user, but if I have problems with some website building (don't get me started on iWeb), word processing, Net use and DVD authoring what must power-users who have deadlines and deals on the line be going through?

I am a long-term reader of the forums, and I am sorry if I come across as negative, but Apple have seriously dropped the ball on the software. Let's look at the recent history: Pages, iWeb, iPhoto 08, iMovie 08 and Leopard were all useless on launch, and iWeb, iMovie 08 and Leopard are still inferior releases. The recent profit boost has come from iMac sales, not iPod/iPhone sales. Yes these latter items are technically brilliant and shiny, but Macs are the core and where the profits are, losing sight of that and focusing on the periphery could bring Apple tumbling down.

Finally, I am amused some think "Snow Leopard" will be the first OS to drop PowerPC support... surely that was Leopard 10.5.0? Reading these forums the bulk of the complaints come from G4/G5 users, so it is clear Apple have dropped support there.

Thanks for letting me rant!

[t0mat0]

I am a long-term reader of the forums, and I am sorry if I come across as negative, but Apple have seriously dropped the ball on the software. Let's look at the recent history: Pages, iWeb, iPhoto 08, iMovie 08 and Leopard were all useless on launch, and iWeb, iMovie 08 and Leopard are still inferior releases. The recent profit boost has come from iMac sales, not iPod/iPhone sales. Yes these latter items are technically brilliant and shiny, but Macs are the core and where the profits are, losing sight of that and focusing on the periphery could bring Apple tumbling down.

[QUOTE]


Definitely a rant...
- So if the developers took a 6 month holiday sponsored by Microsoft, that'd be much better, because there's no time like tomorrow to start work on 10.5.4? You're basically saying that Apple being pro-active in developing and making Leopard better is a "huge lump of a mistake".
- How many users, what percentage has Leopard been a "disaster"? Not all of them i'd imagine, but that's infer implicitly through the wide reaching statements.
- Leopard and wifi does need work. I'd imagine they are working on it. As you yourself say, the Store Genius's have problems with users with problems that need OS fixes. Which i'd imagine would be part of what developing 10.5.4 would include, which you call a "huge lump of a mistake" ;)
- I can't comment on iWeb, Pages, but iPhoto 08, iMovie 08 and Leopard weren't "inferior" releases. You can still use the older versions if you want. Note that they are all likely to get updates. Apple ballsed up iMovie (and Mossberg will agree with you). I'd imagine they will have learnt from that. Bear in mind that for all the new software mentioned, the iPhone will be soon addded to this mix, so there are major changes they have to do anyhow.
Are Macs the core? There is profit in them, Apple's laptop sales are helping out, and soon iPhones will be going great guns too. No need to be ranting about potentials like "Apple tumbling down". Though a great turn of phrase for a rant ;)

[Jonny75]

Definitely a rant...
- So if the developers took a 6 month holiday sponsored by Microsoft, that'd be much better, because there's no time like tomorrow to start work on 10.5.4? You're basically saying that Apple being pro-active in developing and making Leopard better is a "huge lump of a mistake".

No, but seeding one week later shows they were releasing 10.5.3 knowing it still had bugs to be fixed. And it came in at >500Mb... of fixes, and more to come! Maybe we should be done with it and have a newly written OS and put Leopard in history?

- How many users, what percentage has Leopard been a "disaster"? Not all of them i'd imagine, but that's infer implicitly through the wide reaching statements.

Ask Apple Geniuses and the forums rather than relying on "imagination". Yes these are full of ranters and complainers (why moan when it works?) but the traffic concerning Leopard is unprecidented. This is reflected in the major rehauling of the updates. It could well be 10.5.9 will feature NONE of the code of 10.5.0 through updates. Admission that there was something seriously wrong with Leopard. With 500MB updates, we are showing huge levels of rewrites.

- Leopard and wifi does need work. I'd imagine they are working on it. As you yourself say, the Store Genius's have problems with users with problems that need OS fixes. Which i'd imagine would be part of what developing 10.5.4 would include, which you call a "huge lump of a mistake" ;)

If Apple workers are conceding perfectly stable wifi networks are being broken on using Leopard, then this is a problem. Wifi has been around for a while and Leopard is meant to be an ADVANCE of Tiger, but it is a huge backward step in this regard. And the fact I mention Genius' concerns that this is an OS fault and not hardware or ISPs should not be forgotten here. By your admission, Leopard has taken something that worked well in Tiger and made it unstable or inoperable. In the name of progress!

- I can't comment on iWeb, Pages, but iPhoto 08, iMovie 08 and Leopard weren't "inferior" releases. You can still use the older versions if you want. Note that they are all likely to get updates. Apple ballsed up iMovie (and Mossberg will agree with you). I'd imagine they will have learnt from that. Bear in mind that for all the new software mentioned, the iPhone will be soon addded to this mix, so there are major changes they have to do anyhow.

Pages was incredibly slow, buggy and pretty pathetic. Everyone bought it because it was tagged with Keynote. This was admitted by Jobs, so it's on record, let's not rewrite history here. iPhoto 08 required a couple of hasty updates to sort it out it's slow rendering and instability.

Apple's recent qulaity control has been poor, rushing out incomplete software. Pages and Leopard were definitely rushed and could have done with a few more months of work. Leopard 10.5.3 is the nearest to a working version, and I would suggest 10.5.0-2 should have been in house works in progress.

Are Macs the core? There is profit in them, Apple's laptop sales are helping out, and soon iPhones will be going great guns too. No need to be ranting about potentials like "Apple tumbling down". Though a great turn of phrase for a rant ;)

There has been so much hype with iPhones and iPods but Apple's great quarter results are from Mac sales (I include Macbooks etc). The computer business allows them to diversify, but without Mac sales with the great profit margins, the iPhones don't pull in as much cash. I have a long memory and remember Apple nearly being bust when they dropped the focus on producing great Macs and I never want to see that again. So let's face facts and reality, rather than seeing it through Apple tinted glasses. There is a lot of work for Apple ahead, and fixing the software arm is hugely important: who will buy Apple machines is the OS is wretched?

I realise I upset Fanboys with this. But the fanboys defended Gil Amelio and were happy to say, "What iceberg?" while standing on the deck of the good ship Apple as it was sinking mid 90s. Perhaps my being harsh is because I support the company so much, and the best friend is one who can be honest and say it as it is, rather than supporting failure.

Enjoying the debate! Thanks for answering ;o)

[dogbait]

It could well be 10.5.9 will feature NONE of the code of 10.5.0 through updates. Admission that there was something seriously wrong with Leopard. With 500MB updates, we are showing huge levels of rewrites.

Jonny75 is definitely onto something there. If we track the size (MB) of 10.4 updates vs 10.5 updates (all Combo updates) we see that the updates have increased from Tiger to Leopard by a massive amount!

10.4.1 - 37MB
10.4.2 - 58MB
10.4.3 - 109MB

10.5.1 - 110MB
10.5.2 - 343MB
10.5.3 - 536MB

What precisely Apple is fixing and why there's so much to fix (compared to Tiger) is a question I would love to hear answered...

[NickFalk]

...I realise I upset Fanboys with this. But the fanboys defended Gil Amelio and were happy to say, "What iceberg?" while standing on the deck of the good ship Apple as it was sinking mid 90s. Perhaps my being harsh is because I support the company so much, and the best friend is one who can be honest and say it as it is, rather than supporting failure.

Enjoying the debate! Thanks for answering ;o)
Love this kind of argumentation: If you dare to disagree you are by definition a 'fanboy' and I win. No wonder you enjoy the 'debate'... ;)

Anyway, I agree that Leopard has been flakey but my experience is nowhere near the disaster you, and obviously quite a few others, have experienced. A few irritating things, like the machine logging of a user when switching to another, but most things work great on my machine, wi-fi included.

As for iLife 08 it has worked perfectly for me from day one and I can't even remember it crashing once!

[AppleMojo]

I think the fact 10.5.4 is being seeded only ONE WEEK after 10.5.3 shows Leopard is a huge lump of a mistake. Indeed, talk of rapid change to 10.6 suggests Leopard is being abandoned for a re-write of the OS. A tacit admission of failure.

Leopard has been a disaster for users, breaking machines, frequently crashing (and ruining the previous excellent stability record of OS X) and being pathetic with wifi.

I am lucky to have two Macs, my main being an iMac, but I have a Powerbook 12". Whilst I have opted to upgrade the iMac, the Powerbook remains on Tiger and the difference shows. There have been times I have had to turn to the Powerbook for reliability of the OS to complete work. There are no wifi problems with the PB - despite the Al casing - whilst the iMac hangs... sitting next to the laptop. There are some on this forum who consistently deny there are problems with Leopard's wifi handling, blaming ISPs and hardware. Ask any Apple Store Genius and they will tell you what we all know: Leopard breaks wifi. Indeed they are fed up with half their daily work appeasing Leopard users with problems that needs OS fixes and can't be solved in store.

I am not a power user, but if I have problems with some website building (don't get me started on iWeb), word processing, Net use and DVD authoring what must power-users who have deadlines and deals on the line be going through?

I am a long-term reader of the forums, and I am sorry if I come across as negative, but Apple have seriously dropped the ball on the software. Let's look at the recent history: Pages, iWeb, iPhoto 08, iMovie 08 and Leopard were all useless on launch, and iWeb, iMovie 08 and Leopard are still inferior releases. The recent profit boost has come from iMac sales, not iPod/iPhone sales. Yes these latter items are technically brilliant and shiny, but Macs are the core and where the profits are, losing sight of that and focusing on the periphery could bring Apple tumbling down.

Finally, I am amused some think "Snow Leopard" will be the first OS to drop PowerPC support... surely that was Leopard 10.5.0? Reading these forums the bulk of the complaints come from G4/G5 users, so it is clear Apple have dropped support there.

Thanks for letting me rant!

My opinion, you are completely wrong.

Nice way of blowing everything out of proportion and making wide generalizations about the OS. Heck, you might be right... every person within 50 yards of a Mac (with or without OS X) is having HUGE problems and their systems are completely UNUSABLE and Apple is heading for bankruptcy, for sure.

Truth be; If Apple never updated the OS, you'd be making a negative and exactly opposite claim.

It was seeded to DEVELOPERS, this doesn't mean anything other than a new build was made available to DEVELOPERS for TESTING.

Way to go... any movie theaters nearby you can swing in and yell fire!?

--> Back on topic, so I don't get in trouble.

I think it is great to see updates like this. Could be a sign of new features and functionality being prepared for WWDC, or maybe a new (within the last week) issue that has been identified and needs to be updated sooner than later.

Regardless, it's nice to see an OS these days get this kind of attention.

[pmoeser]

Wow. Apple's working hard I see. Just wow....already?

I thought the WOW had already begun?

Redmond, trade in your photocopiers for a Mac and a decent scanner...

[pmoeser]

Ask Apple Geniuses and the forums rather than relying on "imagination". Yes these are full of ranters and complainers (why moan when it works?) but the traffic concerning Leopard is unprecidented. This is reflected in the major rehauling of the updates. It could well be 10.5.9 will feature NONE of the code of 10.5.0 through updates. Admission that there was something seriously wrong with Leopard. With 500MB updates, we are showing huge levels of rewrites.

If Apple workers are conceding perfectly stable wifi networks are being broken on using Leopard, then this is a problem. Wifi has been around for a while and Leopard is meant to be an ADVANCE of Tiger, but it is a huge backward step in this regard. And the fact I mention Genius' concerns that this is an OS fault and not hardware or ISPs should not be forgotten here. By your admission, Leopard has taken something that worked well in Tiger and made it unstable or inoperable. In the name of progress!


I bet I can almost categorically guarantee that the people with Leopard issues don't just follow default installations.

Not one problem on 8 of the 10 macs in our organisation running Leopard (the other 2 are still on Tiger because Adobe suck at keeping up to date)

Give them a break. No other OS comes close to the ease of use and general stability of this product.

[pmoeser]

Jonny75 is definitely onto something there. If we track the size (MB) of 10.4 updates vs 10.5 updates (all Combo updates) we see that the updates have increased from Tiger to Leopard by a massive amount!

10.4.1 - 37MB
10.4.2 - 58MB
10.4.3 - 109MB

10.5.1 - 110MB
10.5.2 - 343MB
10.5.3 - 536MB

What precisely Apple is fixing and why there's so much to fix (compared to Tiger) is a question I would love to hear answered...

Universal binaries will have the most effect on the file sizes.

[psychofreak]

Universal binaries will have the most effect on the file sizes.

As shown by the GBs saved by XSlimmer.

[bignumbers]

Jonny75 is definitely onto something there. If we track the size (MB) of 10.4 updates vs 10.5 updates (all Combo updates) we see that the updates have increased from Tiger to Leopard by a massive amount!

What precisely Apple is fixing and why there's so much to fix (compared to Tiger) is a question I would love to hear answered...

There are two very legitimate reasons why Leopard updates are so large.

One, the feature set. Leopard has more "stuff" than Tiger. Time Machine, Spaces, and a whole ton of background API's (Core Animation etc.).

Two, Universal Binary. In Tiger, Intel and PPC had different OS installs and different updates. In Leopard everything is combined. So all binary code is (roughly) twice as large as it would need to be for just one platform.

Three (ok, I said two), the way Apple packages their updates. They include full file replacements when diffs would make things much smaller. Their method is more reliable so I'm not complaining. But a 100 byte change in a 2MB file adds 2MB to the download.

They also added new features in 10.5.3 - Google address book syncing, a great new Spaces preference, etc.

I wouldn't relate update size to how "buggy" Leopard may or may not be. Personally I've found Leopard to be very usable and stable since 10.5.1. A few issues but nothing earth-shattering. If I remember right I didn't feel that way until 10.4.3 of the Tiger era.

As for the quick 10.5.4 seed I suspect the CS3 data corruption may have something to do with it. That's a very, very serious problem for Apple's designer base. I have no idea if I'm right (haven't read anything about 10.5.4 details), just a guess. If so, 10.5.4 could be out very quickly and the differential update very small.

[Jonny75]

My opinion, you are completely wrong.

Nice way of blowing everything out of proportion and making wide generalizations about the OS. Heck, you might be right... every person within 50 yards of a Mac (with or without OS X) is having HUGE problems and their systems are completely UNUSABLE and Apple is heading for bankruptcy, for sure.

Truth be; If Apple never updated the OS, you'd be making a negative and exactly opposite claim.

It was seeded to DEVELOPERS, this doesn't mean anything other than a new build was made available to DEVELOPERS for TESTING.

Way to go... any movie theaters nearby you can swing in and yell fire!?

Don't go hysterical. I made an argument with reason and supporting evidence and opinion. I didn't ask to be agreed, but I did expect polite debate with some humour. If you can only play me rather than the debate, then you have lost the argument. At least others whilst disagreeing with me have given their view of the POINTS with evidence and I respect that.

I did not say Apple is on to bankrupcy, but the last time Apple spent a protracted period of ignoring their failings in the Mac market, it hit them hard. Evidence from financial quarters shows Mac growth leads to huge profits, and as much as I love my Touch and will buy a 3G iPhone, for business sustainability - especially in these tough times - you need to strengthen your core. History is the best predictor of the future.

Did I say everyone is having problems? No. But I did say there are problems with Leopard and 10.5.3 is the most usable versions with 10.5.0-2 having a distinctly beta flavour. I am not going to go over all my points again as I hope you can re-read them with a calmer disposition.

--> Back on topic, so I don't get in trouble.


Maybe you realise you stepped over the mark?

Regardless, it's nice to see an OS these days get this kind of attention.

So you admit Leopard is getting serious attention. Agreed? Yes, well my point is why is it needing so much attention? A tacit admission of coding problems?

Please use humour, but play the point, not the man and you were the one with no evidence. It is unfailing defence, going about as if everything were perfect that leads to complacency and problems. I'm sure Jobs is on to it, but there are some serious software delivery problems that need addressing. Apple doesn't go in for dialogue about their issues - rightly - so we must look at the evidence. If everything were right in Camp Leopard would we see so much work? Tiger didn't.

We also must look at this outwith a Mac stand point. From the wider technology world.

[Jonny75]

I bet I can almost categorically guarantee that the people with Leopard issues don't just follow default installations.

Not one problem on 8 of the 10 macs in our organisation running Leopard (the other 2 are still on Tiger because Adobe suck at keeping up to date)

Give them a break. No other OS comes close to the ease of use and general stability of this product.

I am rigourous with the update process. My machine is very well maintained, and I had many of the faults described here. Chatting to the Glasgow Apple Geniuses, their in-store and home Macs when upgrading to Leopard had many of the problems. If the staff can't get it right, what hope is there! ;o)

I'm glad you didn't have problems, and admittedly 10.5.3 is far better, but it has a way to go to be more stable than Tiger was at 10.4.3. I would have thought Leopard builds on Tiger (I mean as an end user) and should be superior, but I suspect it won't reach a practical stability until 10.5.5/6 by which time it may have been slated.

[137489]

How is this possible?! :confused:

10.6 on the horizon alongside constant updates to 10.5... insanity. We JUST upgraded to 10.5.3 last week!


Well, with my Windows based systems, I seem to get automatic updates atleast once a week. Other than the usual "Gotta restart" or "your computer has been restarted" I do not see any functionaility changes (unless something crashed - which 50% of the time it does).

Anyway, I can see another update coming. 10.5.3 took a while to be released (for those who are not developers, let me share with you - there is the brainstorming cycle, the collaboration, the actual development, then testing and possibly back to development and retesting - before a release to ensure it goses out as bug free as possible. However, it is almost impossible to catch everything).

The reason I can see another update coming: You all on this forum posted it yourself. Some people felt there was still work to be done, others wanted to see more put in it, and others still complained it "broke" one of your hacks or something else.

I am glad to see that Apple is agressively supporting and improving their software, while working on the newest thing. Too often I hear from other companies (even when submitting bugs); "ok, we will consider that for the next release" - which usually means in the next upgrade version that I will have to buy.

I say way to go :apple:

[stenosis.kill]

*cough* (http://news.worldofapple.com/archives/2008/06/05/first-build-of-mac-os-x-1054-hits-developers-seed-notes/)

[bentoms]

In 10.5.x there are so far lots of issues with logging in to a large AD Domain with multiple child domains.

Many of us Mac administrators cannot rollout new Macs as since 10.5.x it's taking upto 10 mins to login & some configurations can only ever login once.

Apple are aware of this, as have responded to a number of bug reports regarding this, so I hope it's finally fixed.

[bentoms]

*cough* (http://news.worldofapple.com/archives/2008/06/05/first-build-of-mac-os-x-1054-hits-developers-seed-notes/)



Seems that my issues maybe resolved!!

[137489]

Love this kind of argumentation: If you dare to disagree you are by definition a 'fanboy' and I win. No wonder you enjoy the 'debate'... ;)

Anyway, I agree that Leopard has been flakey but my experience is nowhere near the disaster you, and obviously quite a few others, have experienced. A few irritating things, like the machine logging of a user when switching to another, but most things work great on my machine, wi-fi included.

As for iLife 08 it has worked perfectly for me from day one and I can't even remember it crashing once!

For what it's worth.... I have never had an issue with my mac, and I have only been a mac owner since leopard. :D I will say one thing, I had to boot up my old dell laptop last night, as I still have documents I need to bring over to my mac. I don't know when I will ever complete that process, as everytime I bottle (edit -meant boot but I think my mind strayed to bottle neck) up my 2 year old dell xps m1210 with 1.5 gb ram - running 3 apps or more makes it run so slow.... I sat for an hour with a locked up machine converting a OneNote page to PDF (oh it was actually working, but I could not do anything else). Plus the thing heated up so bad last night that the keyboard was even hot to the touch and I could not leave my hand on the palm rest. I have a feeling this will be my next dell crash and nightmare.:mad:

It also takes 2 hrs to render an 8 minute video. I just can't use my dell laptop and be productive anymore. and that is supposed to be a backup to my work desktop (should it crash again - and yes that is a dell too). :confused:

I long for the days where the world is all mac's. ;)

[sihecht]

[QUOTE=Jonny75;5531854]Finally, I am amused some think "Snow Leopard" will be the first OS to drop PowerPC support... surely that was Leopard 10.5.0? Reading these forums the bulk of the complaints come from G4/G5 users, so it is clear Apple have dropped support there.
--------------

I have owned a G5 dual 2.3 for the last 3 years and installed Leopard on it when it was 10.5.0. It is now installed with 10.5.3. I have had absolutely NO problems with this OS. So you see there are happy G5 + Leopard owners out there.

[stenosis.kill]

Seems that my issues maybe resolved!!

Yeah, i hope so that my issue will also be fixed.. but it's hard to wait another 2-3 months :( Please let this fix my LEAP connection bug for real this time.

[Jonny75]

[QUOTE=Jonny75;5531854]Finally, I am amused some think "Snow Leopard" will be the first OS to drop PowerPC support... surely that was Leopard 10.5.0? Reading these forums the bulk of the complaints come from G4/G5 users, so it is clear Apple have dropped support there.
--------------

I have owned a G5 dual 2.3 for the last 3 years and installed Leopard on it when it was 10.5.0. It is now installed with 10.5.3. I have had absolutely NO problems with this OS. So you see there are happy G5 + Leopard owners out there.

Yeah, that was with tongue in cheek.

[AdeFowler]

Please fix the problems that 10.5.? has with CS3 so that I can finally put Leopard on my G5 :(

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

Dare I admit it... I'm on 10.4.11 I confess! I also confess 10.4.11 is a VERY finely tuned machine. Black Macbook used 7 days a week, always in and out of standby, and I just don't reboot or have crashes ever. That's with VMWare and other apps always open.

Bring on 10.4.12!

If it were me I wouldn't want an update in your shoes. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[137489]

Jonny75 is definitely onto something there. If we track the size (MB) of 10.4 updates vs 10.5 updates (all Combo updates) we see that the updates have increased from Tiger to Leopard by a massive amount!

10.4.1 - 37MB
10.4.2 - 58MB
10.4.3 - 109MB

10.5.1 - 110MB
10.5.2 - 343MB
10.5.3 - 536MB

What precisely Apple is fixing and why there's so much to fix (compared to Tiger) is a question I would love to hear answered...

As a developer myself:

1. the more features you add in, the more code to make those features.

2. the more code you have - the more you have to release when you fix something. Yes it would be nice and I love it when I fix something and the fix was only contained in one program. However, 9 times out of 10... The problem is in one codeset, so you fix that - then you have to change another codeset to properly handle the old data and the new fix. Or, you have another program added in that automatically fixes the problems caused by the first bug.

3. Operating systems are very complex as you also have to take into account the applications running on them. you do not want to (or atleast try not to) release something that breaks other apps or causes other software companies to have major rewrites. thus sometimes the code is a little bloated to handle both the backwards compatibility as well as the new features. It would be nice for streamlined code but, as a developer; trying to be compatible with what is already there makes a lot of "IF x then y else z" statements; which then adds to the number of byes in a program.

Or in the case of visual basic on MS:

Case 1 <execute some code>
Case 2 <execute some code>
Case 3

All these case statements take into account coming across different scenerios.

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

I was really hoping for the code name of 10.6 to be Lion. Snow Leopard sounds like a minor update to Leopard.

[star-affinity]

My 867MHz Powermac G4 Quicksilver has been indexing & kernel panicking for like 3 days now with 10.5.3.

Should I just give up on Leopard for this SUPPOSEDLY SUPPORTED MAC or just wait for the class action lawsuit that pays me $9.75 on my $129 purchase ???

:(

Strange, I have the same model—Quicksilver G4 867 MHz (single processor) and I haven't noticed anything getting worse in 10.5.3.

On the other hand I don't use it that heavily. What apps n' stuff do you run on it?

[p96159]

I've had Leopard since 10.5.0 (now 10.5.3) installed on all my Macs:
1. 512MB Mac Mini Solo
2. 1.75GB dual 2.0 GHz G5
3. 2GB Macbook Pro Core Duo 2.0 Ghz
and had absolutely no problems (aside from being a little slow on the Mac Mini, since remedied by adding RAM). The vast majority of people I've spoken to (academics who use their Macs for code development, video conferencing, web hosting, svn repository) report the same: Leopard is a huge improvement for day to day use them.

Leopard is without a doubt more stable than Tiger ever was on my Macbook Pro, I've never had a crash, but had several with Tiger (my Macbook is on 24/7). I think you guys are looking back on the tiger days with rose tinted spectacles..........

[mrJnC]

I'm still experiencing the inability to search "entire message" within Mail. Hasn't worked yet under Leptard for any account (.mac, exchange, gmail). Wasn't an issue with Tiger.

I've rebuilt the spotlight database, but no fix.

[137489]

As a developer myself:

1. the more features you add in, the more code to make those features.

2. the more code you have - the more you have to release when you fix something. Yes it would be nice and I love it when I fix something and the fix was only contained in one program. However, 9 times out of 10... The problem is in one codeset, so you fix that - then you have to change another codeset to properly handle the old data and the new fix. Or, you have another program added in that automatically fixes the problems caused by the first bug.

3. Operating systems are very complex as you also have to take into account the applications running on them. you do not want to (or atleast try not to) release something that breaks other apps or causes other software companies to have major rewrites. thus sometimes the code is a little bloated to handle both the backwards compatibility as well as the new features. It would be nice for streamlined code but, as a developer; trying to be compatible with what is already there makes a lot of "IF x then y else z" statements; which then adds to the number of byes in a program.

Or in the case of visual basic on MS:

Case 1 <execute some code>
Case 2 <execute some code>
Case 3

All these case statements take into account coming across different scenerios.


Continuation of this post:

Also, if you have to write for different hardware (ie, tiger had 2 OS's one for PPC and one for Intel; leapord is one OS for both hardware) which means there are checks that "IF PPC THEN ....... ELSE IF INTEL THEN ........ ELSE CRASH IF HACK END IF"

or again in the case of MS Visual basic:

case 1 <execute code for ppc>
case 2 <execute code for intel>

Which means every fix requires double the code - fix needs to be in ppc portion and a similar fix needs to be in intel portion.

I can see where supporting intel only on 10.6 will reduce the code set, as all the code for ppc can be ripped out (if it was implemented correctly with bloated code, then it could be easily done). I know that is an oxymoron - correctly/bloated code. But then you could just take all the PPC specific code out.

And with all those whining about no longer supporting PPC? Well, it may be time for PPC users to move on. My old 486 ran linux fine, but was not supported by the major linux companies or MS. plus the new features would not run on the 486. What you are asking for is to have a 1960 muscle car (I used muscle car as PPC users tend to feel it had more power) to have AC, reclining seats, bluetooth for your phone, a multi-disk changer, get good gas mileage, but don't change the look or the feel of it being an original 1960 muscle car (every car company is trying to do that with the remake of the Ford Mustang, Dodge Charger/Challenger, and I think Chevy is in the process of doing the same). I think this is what apple is trying to do on Intel. give you all the features you want of today - but maintain the classic feel that users really want.

[Jonny75]

I think you guys are looking back on the tiger days with rose tinted spectacles..........

No, I use Tiger with Leopard. I'm not doing academic work... just the sort of things the average user does. You know, the Mac target audience! Along side each other, I find Tiger far more stable and Leopard buggy. There are things with Leopard I love, just that they work in theory and not so well in practice, I find. They are all documented on other forums and magazines.

Tiger had it's faults, but by 10.4.3 it was stable and a clear improvement over Jaguar. In my opinion, I can't say the same about Leopard.

I'm glad you have no problems.

My problems and views aren't confined to these forums, read the editorials/articles of MacUser UK, MacWorld, The Guardian, New York Times which have all detailed the problems with Apple's recent software output and rushed feel. And some of this press sticks.

[Jonny75]

And with all those whining about no longer supporting PPC?

No I wouldn't whine about that -- all technology has obsolesce and I am aware of that. Perhaps some of the problems of Leopard is that the coding work is spread too thin, and by focusing on Intel machines, there can be more efficient working.

Thanks for your technical/coding input, it explains a lot.

[Phil A.]

Continuation of this post:

Also, if you have to write for different hardware (ie, tiger had 2 OS's one for PPC and one for Intel; leapord is one OS for both hardware) which means there are checks that "IF PPC THEN ....... ELSE IF INTEL THEN ........ ELSE CRASH IF HACK END IF"

or again in the case of MS Visual basic:

case 1 <execute code for ppc>
case 2 <execute code for intel>

Which means every fix requires double the code - fix needs to be in ppc portion and a similar fix needs to be in intel portion.

I can see where supporting intel only on 10.6 will reduce the code set, as all the code for ppc can be ripped out (if it was implemented correctly with bloated code, then it could be easily done). I know that is an oxymoron - correctly/bloated code. But then you could just take all the PPC specific code out.

And with all those whining about no longer supporting PPC? Well, it may be time for PPC users to move on. My old 486 ran linux fine, but was not supported by the major linux companies or MS. plus the new features would not run on the 486. What you are asking for is to have a 1960 muscle car (I used muscle car as PPC users tend to feel it had more power) to have AC, reclining seats, bluetooth for your phone, a multi-disk changer, get good gas mileage, but don't change the look or the feel of it being an original 1960 muscle car (every car company is trying to do that with the remake of the Ford Mustang, Dodge Charger/Challenger, and I think Chevy is in the process of doing the same). I think this is what apple is trying to do on Intel. give you all the features you want of today - but maintain the classic feel that users really want.

I think you're overstating the impact of maintaining support for multiple processor platforms: Certainly from an application point of view (within XCode), all you have to do is set a checkbox to generate the code for PPC and Intel together in a single universal binary. Within the core OS, there may be some cases where you have different code for different platforms (such as any assembler that may be embedded), but within core C code, it's not difficult to use a single code base for multiple processors

[137489]

No I wouldn't whine about that -- all technology has obsolesce and I am aware of that. Perhaps some of the problems of Leopard is that the coding work is spread too thin, and by focusing on Intel machines, there can be more efficient working.

Thanks for your technical/coding input, it explains a lot.

Anytime. I have been a developer for years (mostly mainframes and older PC's for large companies that moved at a snails pace). Every update I kept saying to myself - if we could just get off of these old machines we could run X which would give us what we need and then we would not have to do Y which is double the coding for the same thing.

Jonny - I do not know if you have any real development experience or not. But I can tell you as a developer; between the meetings, the code writing, the testing, fixing, retesting, there are a lot of hours that goes into what a user feels is just a simple fix.

I used to be able to fix all my cars myself until about mid 1980's when they started with all the pollution controls, efficiency, did away with carburators for fuel injection, etc (some new cars don't even have spark plugs). Now, I am lost when trying to work on a newer car. Alot goes on under the hood to make it all work with what we want. Am I happier with the new cars? Well that is a catch 22, I like the new features (the comfort, the safety, the efficiency) but the cost of maintaining and the fact I have to go to the dealer because of all that is under the hood to make it happen - just kinda makes me feel helpless at times. No wonder mechanics charge $100/hr labor.

[I WAS the one]

people, please... Tiger it's great. Leopard it's great. BOTH are good OSes but they are different cats. If you like the way Tiger works keep using Tiger. If you love how Leopard works keep Leopard. I know a few people that still use Mac OS 9, it works for him and he earns money using his G4 under OS 9. My point is that I don't know why people think they need to upgrade everytime Apple introduce a new OS. You need ti learn Leopard and get used to that new OS if you want to use it for your business, some bugs aren't bugs they are just stuff that you get used to in Tiger and now you haven't in Leopard. Leopard it's not a fix for Tiger, Leopard it's a brand new OS from Apple, you can give it a try or you don't. 10.4.11 it's ready and stable. 10.5.3 isn't but it's getting there. 10.6 will be either an update or an upgrade, we just need to wait.

[milo]

I think the fact 10.5.4 is being seeded only ONE WEEK after 10.5.3 shows Leopard is a huge lump of a mistake. Indeed, talk of rapid change to 10.6 suggests Leopard is being abandoned for a re-write of the OS. A tacit admission of failure.

Boo freaking hoo.

All OS releases will have bugs. As far as I'm concerned, the more fast and often fixes are released, the better.

Look at it from the opposite point of view...if a company takes many months to release fixes, then I guess that means it must have not been that bad?

As far as I'm concerned, faster releases just mean they're getting better at getting fixes done fast and getting them out the door. To be honest, I'd love to see more quick releases using a 10.5.3.1 model (and that goes for all apps and OSs)...but then the accusations would really fly...how dare apple improve their OS so often?

And with all those whining about no longer supporting PPC? Well, it may be time for PPC users to move on. My old 486 ran linux fine, but was not supported by the major linux companies or MS. plus the new features would not run on the 486.

We all know that machines get obsolete after a while. But generally it's because the machines are old enough that they no longer are good enough to run the latest and greatest. The "whining" as you so condescendingly put it is because if the rumor is to be believed, Apple will be abandoning machines that are perfectly capable of running the latest software well, and dropping support for machines after a much shorter time than they usually do. It's silly to try and compare PPC to 486 or a 1960 car, these machines are fairly recent.

People don't expect support forever, they just expect it for a reasonable length of time, and 3 years is on the short side.

[LoCarbHotrod]

How does apple do it? How do they get so much done simultaneously? Don't they only have like 1/5 the size of Microsofts workforce?

They got guys working on 10.5.4.
They got guys working on 10.6.
They got guys designing new products, which include Apple displays, laptops, imacs, possibly mac minis, and ipods.
They got guys doing their advertisement.
They got guys working on little bugs and updates for iLife, iWork, Aperture etc.
And they got guys working on the iPhone and anything else I forgot to mention.

Such stellar communication with other departments and all throughout apple. Hats off to them.

[137489]

I think you're overstating the impact of maintaining support for multiple processor platforms: Certainly from an application point of view (within XCode), all you have to do is set a checkbox to generate the code for PPC and Intel together in a single universal binary. Within the core OS, there may be some cases where you have different code for different platforms (such as any assembler that may be embedded), but within core C code, it's not difficult to use a single code base for multiple processors

Maybe overstated but in reference to your "set a check box to generate"... What then goes on under the hood for whether that checkbox is set or not (if checked then xxx else yy),... Remember all programming languages get ultimately broken down into some sort of assemply. be it with a compiler or the OS doing it for you.

that is what is nice about VB on MS (ok maybe a bad example bringing MS into this argument, but for the sake of example....) I can create my screens graphically, write code in simple statements. but I have compile into a executable. Visual Studio (which is a bunch programs in itself), then takes my code and re-renders it making decisions based on the hardware I am on, etc. Look at why on the side of every box of software (no matter what platform you have) there are system requirements.

Yes there are nice applications that have check boxes for whether to include something or not - but that application also has code you do not see that then compiles it to include both sets and thus why code sets are larger.

I think enough said on this.....

[dogbait]

Many thanks bignumbers and shervieux for your replies. I overlooked the fact that Tiger kept the PPC/Intel updates separate and Leopard combined them.

[morespce54]

What? Seeding 10.5.4???
What happened to the 10.6 seeds? ;):)

[Small White Car]

So you admit Leopard is getting serious attention. Agreed? Yes, well my point is why is it needing so much attention? A tacit admission of coding problems?

Ugh, right.

And the fact that Adobe is working on Photoshop CS4 is a 'tacit admission' that Photoshop CS3 has coding problems? :rolleyes:

Talk about an illogical leap of logic.

Indeed, talk of rapid change to 10.6 suggests Leopard is being abandoned for a re-write of the OS.

It suggests no such thing. You're the first person I've seen to suggest this. You said you're just stating opinions and people should respect that, but how can we do that when your 'opinions' are actually made-up facts? That's not what an opinion is.

Saying "I don't like McDonalds" is an opinion. Saying "McDonalds food has dirt in it" is not an opinion. That's pretty much what you're doing, so don't get out of annoyed when people challenge that.

[mags631]

Which means every fix requires double the code - fix needs to be in ppc portion and a similar fix needs to be in intel portion.

No, it does not work that way at all. Sorry.

[137489]

Many thanks bignumbers and shervieux for your replies. I overlooked the fact that Tiger kept the PPC/Intel updates separate and Leopard combined them.

Easier to do if you do not have both hardware in front of you.

[jalagl]

i'm actually surprised by this as a lot of people i work with tell me that 10.5.3 has fixed a ton of their problems with 10.5.2. maybe Apple is being proactive and wants to get the fixes out faster than how long 10.5.3 took.


- Leopard and wifi does need work. I'd imagine they are working on it. As you yourself say, the Store Genius's have problems with users with problems that need OS fixes. Which i'd imagine would be part of what developing 10.5.4 would include, which you call a "huge lump of a mistake" ;)


I've had (http://blog.joseaguilar.org/?p=58) tons of problems (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=7221774) with Leopard (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=462668) and Wifi (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=378679), HOWEVER, it is now working flawlessly after the 10.5.3 update. Actually, after the update, I haven't had any problems of any kind (other than the occasional VLC crash - I'm not sure it is related, though). The other issue I was having with Leopard was the DVD Player crashing my MacBook (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=429296). That was also taken care of by 10.5.3.

Having said that, it was a VERY FRUSTRATING experience to buy a brand-new MacBook in January, and not be able to use it properly until late May. Specially the Wifi issues - I kept doing the workarounds almost every day, and it was irritating to say the least. The last month or so I ended up using the MacBook only for university work (writing papers and creating Keynote presentations), read my email on the iPhone and ONLY did the workarounds and connected if I had to email something to somebody. I also started using my old Powerbook again, which doesn't have any problem when running 10.4.X (with Leopard the fans would NEVER slow down and the CPU was constantly at 100% utilization).

Having said that, Leopard is a great OS once everything works. I just hope 10.6 is stable and well-tested from the begining.

[Jonny75]

Ugh, right.

And the fact that Adobe is working on Photoshop CS4 is a 'tacit admission' that Photoshop CS3 has coding problems? :rolleyes:

Talk about an illogical leap of logic.



It suggests no such thing. You're the first person I've seen to suggest this. You said you're just stating opinions and people should respect that, but how can we do that when your 'opinions' are actually made-up facts? That's not what an opinion is.

No, no, no, no, no! Read it.

Of course Apple should work on new versions, but what is clear is that there were huge numbers of problems with 10.5 evidenced by all journalists, the traffic on all Mac sites including Apple and here and feedback from Apple Stores.

My point is that the number of bug fixes is disproportionate to simple fixes to develop the OS - which I commend and welcome. No, it is the fact that issues not seen in OS X through to Tiger are suddenly problematic in Leopard. Apple is addressing them, but there is a serious quality control issue when an OS, Pages, iWeb, iMovie are all released to the public and the general feeling from users, reviewers (Mac and general press) is that these are Beta releases, packaged as complete. Apple tried to get a march on Vista and rushed out Leopard. In truth, Leopard 10.5.3 works where earlier releases were works in progress.

I want progress. Apple are working on products way in advance of what we see, I know that. But manufacturers generally regard new versions to be superior and build on previous successes. And should not be released until they do so. Not slip backwards.

It is not illogical to believe this. It is business sense. Some on here look at all this from a computer-geek point. I am looking at it as business. You can be ideal all you like, but there is a growing business/finance press reputation of Apple products being rushed out and not finished, a contrary position to their past. This could harm them, as well frustrating new marketshare (adopters). You missed the point.

In business remember: have a good experience, you tell another; have a bad you tell 5. Please read posts calmly and objectively and don't be so naive to the general marketplace.

[137489]

No, it does not work that way at all. Sorry.

I won't argue with you. However I worked in some companies where the mandated practice is to duplicate entire code sets for the same functionaility on the differnt hardware or OS's; rather than just a one line check for that particular command. so the fix has to be implemented twice. I hated doing updates for those companies as it meant double the work, double the testing, and douple the size of a release.

Sometimes you have to do that because of system calls are different. Are you a developer? Do you look at what is under the hood to get to the binary and assembly level (languarge the machine actually understands, not the english-like or code we write in)? I am glad I only had to do that a few times and abandoned that years ago since software companies write apps and OS's to create programming languages that break it down for me, so it looks like I am only clicking a checkbox.

I am done with this argument. non-developers and non-system people do not know what it takes under the hood. I do not care what platform - in the end it all boils down to code to make it work for specific hardware, and code to interpret pretty code (as in the case of Visual studio, Java, etc). you have code in the OS or firmware that breaks down your pretty code to run the hardware. Some do it more efficiently than others.

[137489]

No, no, no, no, no! Read it.

Of course Apple should work on new versions, but what is clear is that there were huge numbers of problems with 10.5 evidenced by all journalists, the traffic on all Mac sites including Apple and here and feedback from Apple Stores.

My point is that the number of bug fixes is disproportionate to simple fixes to develop the OS - which I commend and welcome. No, it is the fact that issues not seen in OS X through to Tiger are suddenly problematic in Leopard. Apple is addressing them, but there is a serious quality control issue when an OS, Pages, iWeb, iMovie are all released to the public and the general feeling from users, reviewers (Mac and general press) is that these are Beta releases, packaged as complete. Apple tried to get a march on Vista and rushed out Leopard. In truth, Leopard 10.5.3 works where earlier releases were works in progress.

I want progress. Apple are working on products way in advance of what we see, I know that. But manufacturers generally regard new versions to be superior and build on previous successes. And should not be released until they do so. Not slip backwards.

It is not illogical to believe this. It is business sense. Some on here look at all this from a computer-geek point. I am looking at it as business. You can be ideal all you like, but there is a growing business/finance press reputation of Apple products being rushed out and not finished, a contrary position to their past. This could harm them, as well frustrating new marketshare (adopters). You missed the point.

In business remember: have a good experience, you tell another; have a bad you tell 5. Please read posts calmly and objectively and don't be so naive to the general marketplace.


From a business perspective - I see your point. From a development perspecitive - work is never done and is ever increasing. you just have to draw a line and say ok, this release fixes x or implements x, we are still working on y.

after 20+ years in various levels of I/T, I see the frustrations on both sides. I/T is one of the most loved, hated, frustrating, and stressful occupations to be in.

my old high-school professor (I went to a Career/techincal highschool that taught at the college level) used to say, if you are looking for applause and a congratulations on your work and like to see the end product - Data Processing (term before I/T was used) is not the career for you, there are many late nights and frustrations. However, if you like meddling in things and trying to push to the limit, and don't career there is never any reall rewards or a true sense of 100% satisfaction, then Data Processing is not the place for you.
After 20+ years, I see these new commercials on TV advertising college courses and pointing out the glamor of I/T (to get people into the field). they do not show you want goes on in the background or what it takes, and college courses are only the tip of the iceberg. Most people are trained to be consultants or users, not what it takes to put it all together to make it work. been there, done that.

[twoodcc]

well that was quick. glad to see this though

[Kelmon]

I think the fact 10.5.4 is being seeded only ONE WEEK after 10.5.3 shows Leopard is a huge lump of a mistake. Indeed, talk of rapid change to 10.6 suggests Leopard is being abandoned for a re-write of the OS. A tacit admission of failure.

Leopard has been a disaster for users, breaking machines, frequently crashing (and ruining the previous excellent stability record of OS X) and being pathetic with wifi.

Seriously, bravo! Quality Control seems to have gone out the window with Apple and I've noted a distinct deterioration in quality products over the past 5-years since I switched. Tiger, for me, was quite unstable on release when compared to Panther (I can't compare to Jaguar since I switched at 10.2.8), but Leopard is still annoying me with bugs (see my earlier post) 9-months later. That the next update is being released so soon does seem to suggest a panic release and, given the noise being made by Adobe users, I can understand why it is being done. I'd be quite happy if these updates were being to make the system better, but they're being released to fix bugs that shouldn't have been there in the first place. The release version of Leopard was terrible. For a company that makes its own hardware and quite a lot of the software, there is no reason why the release version of an Apple OS should not be damned close to rock-solid. In this respect I entirely agree that 10.5.3 is the first version that looks like what should have been in the box on Day 1.

I honestly really like what Leopard is trying to deliver, but I think it's been a bit of a mess. If it wasn't for the fact that I am too used to some of the features in Leopard to go back, then I'd go back to Tiger. Mind you, with Tiger I'd contemplate going back to Panther, which I still think was the strongest release of the Mac OS X so far.

Perhaps with the iPhone Apple is spreading themselves too thinly, particularly in the Mac OS X area, and this is why overall quality is suffering.

[GT500Shlby]

So will we have to pay for 10.6 like we did for 10.5 or will it just be a major update?

[Phil A.]

Maybe overstated but in reference to your "set a check box to generate"... What then goes on under the hood for whether that checkbox is set or not (if checked then xxx else yy),... Remember all programming languages get ultimately broken down into some sort of assemply. be it with a compiler or the OS doing it for you.

that is what is nice about VB on MS (ok maybe a bad example bringing MS into this argument, but for the sake of example....) I can create my screens graphically, write code in simple statements. but I have compile into a executable. Visual Studio (which is a bunch programs in itself), then takes my code and re-renders it making decisions based on the hardware I am on, etc. Look at why on the side of every box of software (no matter what platform you have) there are system requirements.

Yes there are nice applications that have check boxes for whether to include something or not - but that application also has code you do not see that then compiles it to include both sets and thus why code sets are larger.

I think enough said on this.....

Your original post read as though you were saying developers had twice as much work to do to support PPC and Intel, which is why I said it was overstated. If you're now saying that you really meant that the resulting compiled binaries will be larger, then I would agree with you more (although it's important for people to remember that Universal Binary apps are not twice as large as single architecture apps because most of the size in an application is taken up by resources, etc that are common across all architectures. Similarly, some UB apps actually have 4 architectures in them: 32 bit and 64 bit PPC and 32 bit and 64 bit Intel, but they aren't 4 times as large as single architecture apps).
Having said all that, I'm still confused by your comment about the "if..then..else" statements: This reads as if the created app makes decisions at runtime based on the architecture. In fact, the compiler creates separate executable binaries, one for each architecture, that are then bundled into the app bundle. In effect, you have multiple compilers running on the single source file generating different compiled apps.

[rhett7660]

Perhaps with the iPhone Apple is spreading themselves too thinly, particularly in the Mac OS X area, and this is why overall quality is suffering.

I have wondered about this also. There seems to be a lot of focus on the iPhone. However I can see it making more money for apple, but it is leaving kind of a sourer taste in some of the long time apple OS users.

I think it is great they are working on a new version already. They are not sitting down and taking a break.

[snberk103]

How does apple do it? How do they get so much done simultaneously? Don't they only have like 1/5 the size of Microsofts workforce?

They got guys working on 10.5.4.
They got guys working on 10.6.
They got guys designing new products, which include Apple displays, laptops, imacs, possibly mac minis, and ipods.
They got guys doing their advertisement.
They got guys working on little bugs and updates for iLife, iWork, Aperture etc.
And they got guys working on the iPhone and anything else I forgot to mention.

Such stellar communication with other departments and all throughout apple. Hats off to them.

Presumably they have a woman or two working too? Thats how they get all that stuff done...:)

[Eric S.]

It could well be 10.5.9 will feature NONE of the code of 10.5.0 through updates.

Uh, yeah. It will be a 100% replacement of all the OS code? And yet somehow all of the new code will just work and be bug-free?

[Jonny75]

Uh, yeah. It will be a 100% replacement of all the OS code? And yet somehow all of the new code will just work and be bug-free?

The point being no original code has not needed a re-write.

[Eric S.]

I won't argue with you. However I worked in some companies where the mandated practice is to duplicate entire code sets for the same functionaility on the differnt hardware or OS's; rather than just a one line check for that particular command. so the fix has to be implemented twice. I hated doing updates for those companies as it meant double the work, double the testing, and douple the size of a release.

Sometimes you have to do that because of system calls are different. Are you a developer? Do you look at what is under the hood to get to the binary and assembly level (languarge the machine actually understands, not the english-like or code we write in)? I am glad I only had to do that a few times and abandoned that years ago since software companies write apps and OS's to create programming languages that break it down for me, so it looks like I am only clicking a checkbox.

I am done with this argument. non-developers and non-system people do not know what it takes under the hood. I do not care what platform - in the end it all boils down to code to make it work for specific hardware, and code to interpret pretty code (as in the case of Visual studio, Java, etc). you have code in the OS or firmware that breaks down your pretty code to run the hardware. Some do it more efficiently than others.

You are not the only software developer reading this forum. I have worked in OS development for over 30 years, the last 28 of which was on Unix. And yes, I know what assembly language is. A very, very small percentage of OS X is written in assembly language. And the overwhelming percentage of bugfixes made to OS X - I would guess 99% at least - are made to a common code base. The architecture-specific code (i.e., Intel vs. PPC) in the OS is really fairly small, and most of that code by now will have been debugged considerably. Bugs that are showing up now will overwhelmingly be in architecture-independent code. There will be somewhat more platform-specific code (Macbook vs. iMac vs. Mac Pro, etc.), but even that is sure to be a small percentage of the overall code base.

[Eric S.]

The point being no original code has not needed a re-write.

Ridiculous. I would wager that BSD Unix still has code that goes back to the original Unix in 1970 which has never been rewritten. Certainly the huge percentage of code from 10.5.0, nearly all of it, will make it to the final 10.5.x unscathed.

[akac]

The point being no original code has not needed a re-write.

I doubt most anything is a rewrite. Most of it is is going to be just minor changes. But as someone else pointed out, a one line change to the code of a 2MB binary still is packaged as 2MB of new binary code. Its not 2MB of new code. And then with Universal Binaries, its 4MB of new code. Actually 16MB because they have to package separate frameworks for:
32-bit PPC
64-bit PPC
32-bit Intel
64-bit Intel
and then since all the frameworks are dual-mode (Garbage Collected)
32-bit PPC Garbage Collected
64-bit PPC Garbage Collected
32-bit Intel Garbage Collected
64-bit Intel Garbage Collected

So a one line change or even 5 pages worth of code change in a 2MB module comes out to be 16MB of changes in the installer for any Apple OS framework. Of course for non-framework items like apps, you're still talking about 2x the size or more.

[akac]

And for the record, Leopard is a really good OS on every machine I've ever seen it on. Yes its had issues, but I've had issues with XP, Vista, Tiger, Panther, Jaguar, and so on. Only 10.4.11 had almost no issues, but it took awhile to get to that point.

I do think Leopard has some immature parts - Spaces being the #1 thing that I love, but hate though I believe that's due to VMWare - but I can turn off Spaces and for me I'm above the 10.4.11 experience.

The only reason Leopard has had more negative feedback on the web is because there are dramatically more Mac users now than were with previous OSs and because the Vista/Leopard competition is well publicized.

[milo]

Of course Apple should work on new versions, but what is clear is that there were huge numbers of problems with 10.5 evidenced by all journalists, the traffic on all Mac sites including Apple and here and feedback from Apple Stores.

Every major OS release will have bugs (and not just OSX). I don't buy that 10.5 was worse than previous versions, I think people just forget how 10.4.0 and 10.3.0 were.

Any major update that adds new features will introduce new bugs that weren't in the previous version. That's just how it is. The alternative is a never ending development cycle that ships without the latest and greatest features. The fact is, if you wait until software is perfect, it either never ships...or at least it ships so late that it's outdated by the time it's released. Except for the simplest apps, all software ships with bugs, it's just a question of what is acceptable.

[MacFanBoyMike]

I went ahead an upgraded to 10.5.3 the other night and I haven't had any problems. Really, I have not had any OS problems with 10.5.2 either (but that's just me); I do run into issues with Safari, though.

The problem is that if Apple does not address issues with an update in a timely manner, users complain-problems not being resolved quick enough.

If they seed .n right after .m is released to the public, users complain-it's too soon.

Then there is the rumor or two about 10.6, and users complain-too soon, no support for my Mac.

Either way, Apple can't win. But on the bright side, with Apple, we're a lot better off than the M$ world! It's all about perspective. Maybe we can use our energy to steer Apple toward fixing those specific issues we know are out there-maybe some user driven milestones.

[Jonny75]

Except for the simplest apps, all software ships with bugs, it's just a question of what is acceptable.

Good point and I agree. However I find the problems with wifi across so many machines unacceptable. I find the instability unacceptable. Others upgraded for the features, I just wanted something I could rely on and the features. I think my days of buying a new OS X within the first year are over. Better to let it ruin others' machines than my own. Had I moved from Tiger to 10.5.3, it wouldn't have been quite as frustrating and painful.

As to my references to code, I am writing as a layman. When I write 'code' I really mean features needing rewrites to perform as they are intended. The bare bones of how you achieve that and UNIX coding from the 1970s leaves me, and most Mac users (although admittedly not so much here), cold.

Like TV, I want a good picture and content, I don't care for how the picture is encoded and decoded behind the screen!

[137489]

Your original post read as though you were saying developers had twice as much work to do to support PPC and Intel, which is why I said it was overstated. If you're now saying that you really meant that the resulting compiled binaries will be larger, then I would agree with you more (although it's important for people to remember that Universal Binary apps are not twice as large as single architecture apps because most of the size in an application is taken up by resources, etc that are common across all architectures. Similarly, some UB apps actually have 4 architectures in them: 32 bit and 64 bit PPC and 32 bit and 64 bit Intel, but they aren't 4 times as large as single architecture apps).
Having said all that, I'm still confused by your comment about the "if..then..else" statements: This reads as if the created app makes decisions at runtime based on the architecture. In fact, the compiler creates separate executable binaries, one for each architecture, that are then bundled into the app bundle. In effect, you have multiple compilers running on the single source file generating different compiled apps.

My posts meant to try to do the following things:

1. Explain all the code that goes into trying to combine 2 separate OS's into one OS that runs on two separate architechtures - thus why larger file downloads from Tiger the Leopard.

2. Get people to realize what goes on under the hood and development cycles, what it takes for the compilers to do, and why you can't please everyone. Do you release quickly, and have the drawbacks, or do you take the extra time and get people pissed that it appears nothing is getting done? Unfortunately no matter how hard you try, trying to obtain the middle ground is a losing battle, especially since this Apple Vs. MS race... My dream (and disgree as you might) would be for both companies to merge and have the best of both companies apps running on the best of OS X -using the Apple mentality and hardware to get it done.:p But we know that cannot happen as we are talking about 2 separate architectures, two separate lines of thinking, and we saw what happened when they worked togther in the past (first editions of Windows 95, Apple Menu structure and design running on a buggy operating system - then MS took all the credit).

3. as far as the app making the decisions at runtime or the compiler making the decision thus creating two separate binaries - that is all in the implementation. I have seen both implementations done (see one of my prior posts). I also work with a number of "interpreted" languages (meaning there is no compiler and code changes are executed on the fly - on mainframe legacy platforms. Here, it is the app making the decision at runtime. I had to work with code in applications that said "if version=xxx" or make a system call to have the OS report back a piece of hardware, then say if hardware=xxx.

So in a fact; depending on implementation, it can make for more work for the developer - been there, done that.

One of my problems with MacRumors is there are these wanna-be geeks that really have no clue of really goes on in the I/T world, and what it takes to release applications and OS's. My other complaint is there are those real Geeks (like myself) who try to explain how it works and why we have what we have, only to get shot down by a wanna-be confusing the situation even more.

No wonder Apple users are called a "cult".

Me, I just want the best computing experience for my needs, at the most reasonable cost. thus why I switched from Windows to Apple. Hardware more expensive, but lasts longer. Software less expensive, but very intuitive and less bloated for my needs (and all apps seem to integrate with each other nicely - even if it is a different software company putting it out), plus most apps are simpler to work with (simple also sometimes means more code behind the scenes as we are relying on the app to do things, rather than making the decisions or tweaking ourselves.)

my bottom line:

1. Business sense - get most right the first time as you can. Do not break the majority of what people are currently using, and phase out obsoletes.

2. Do not delay the fixes longer than necessary to try to include more fixes (maybe that is why MS puts out system updates ever couple of days to a week, they have problems and are pushing out what they deemed finished as quickly as possible and include only that - not waiting a few weeks to months to bundle together larger updates also resulting in larger downloads). The smaller push outs, the less you notice something. The larger push outs, the more likely the problems, and also you get people rushing into areas they never likely used and start complaining about that. Plus the larger the push-out, the more chance you will have to fix even larger chunks of code when the bug reports come back (multiple reports in multiple areas).

What I think Apple is trying to accomplish here is to provide a regular update schedule delivering fixes quicker, and also stop the "when are they going to get to..." or this huge update and my xxx is still broken.

[Jonny75]

I went ahead an upgraded to 10.5.3 the other night and I haven't had any problems. Really, I have not had any OS problems with 10.5.2 either (but that's just me); I do run into issues with Safari, though.

The problem is that if Apple does not address issues with an update in a timely manner, users complain-problems not being resolved quick enough.

If they seed .n right after .m is released to the public, users complain-it's too soon.

Then there is the rumor or two about 10.6, and users complain-too soon, no support for my Mac.

Either way, Apple can't win. But on the bright side, with Apple, we're a lot better off than the M$ world! It's all about perspective. Maybe we can use our energy to steer Apple toward fixing those specific issues we know are out there-maybe some user driven milestones.

Hell yeah! It's a dream compared to Vista! ;o)

And I have been doing my bit reporting any bugs/crashes. Apple do listen and do fix which is superb. I may gripe, but I'm in the position of highly satisfied wanting perfection, rather than anything else!

[bryanzak]

This is reflected in the major rehauling of the updates. It could well be 10.5.9 will feature NONE of the code of 10.5.0 through updates. Admission that there was something seriously wrong with Leopard. With 500MB updates, we are showing huge levels of rewrites.

With all due respect, this is the stupidest thing I've heard on the internet in a long time.

I can absolutely, 100% guarantee you that 10.5.3 does not contain "huge levels of rewrites". How naive and ignorant of software development are you? Do you even know the word "rewrite" means from a software development perspective?


You do realize that even if Apple changes one single line of code for a program like Finder or iCal, or if they change one line of code in a Framework that it means the entire binary of that code has to be redistributed in a software update? Apple's updates are not binary diffs.

You also realize that each bit of binary code is updated twice? Once for Intel and once for PPC? There's a reason it's called "Universal".

And in fact, I'm not 100% about this, but I don't even believe they are package-level diffs, but I could be wrong. If I'm not, then changing Finder or iCal, etc, also means all of those resources are redistributed even if they had not changed. And those resources take up a non-trivial amount of storage: icon files, help files, various nibs for various languages, etc.


You need to come back to reality.

[Jonny75]

With all due respect, this is the stupidest thing I've heard on the internet in a long time.

You have no respect as you later show. And you don't get on the Net much if that's the stupidest (sic) thing you have read. You also do not read around the subject.

I can absolutely, 100% guarantee you that 10.5.3 does not contain "huge levels of rewrites". How naive and ignorant of software development are you? Blah, blah, blah

As I have stated many times which everyone else got but you didn't, I was writing metaphorically. Stop being so literal, come out of your computer class and see there is a rich world out there, those who use language to communicate and not code! ;o)

You need to come back to reality.

The reality is Leopard had problems. Apple's profits were driven by Mac sales, not iPods/iPhones:

http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/22/apple-1q-2008-results-record-1-58-billion-profit/

http://www.macrumors.com/2008/04/23/apple-2q-2008-results-conference-call-highlights-profit/

http://www.macworld.com/article/133145/2008/04/profit.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/technology/24apple.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Macs are being bought by people who have never used Apple products which is great. This is the time to get Apple aps and OS up to scratch. Past achievements are nothing if Apple can't get a great OS there to keep converts and bring more into the fold.

You may know code, but you know nothing of business, finances and how the stock market works. You may be a Wozniak but you're no Jobs. Get a grip.

Your manner also suggests some insecurity and dysfunction, so don't blow it all over here if you have some problems to tackle.

[ilflyya]

I'm reading some negative stuff about Leopard. My experience with the OS has been great! I've had it since the day it came out and I haven't ever had a crash, or any of the "bugs" that people speak of. I guess I'm just lucky? I also have a recent Macbook ( as of Fall 2007) that I'm sure was built for the OS requirements. All this inferior stuff, I just don't understand. I edit video heavily and use basically all the Mac Adobe programs. I will agree that iMovie and the like aren't that great (thus why I use Adobe), but this OS is awesome! I only shut my Macbook off once a week, and that is only so I'm sure that certain "clean up" functions operated, so I'm told anyway. Long Live Leopard!
:D

[137489]

time to say good-bye:(

Because of the way macrumors is turning into Mac-Whiners, and the fact that my job is now taking me to supporting .NET on an MS-SQL server database at 120 hospitals and growing, I am now working 10-12 hr days 9on top of my family time and my Christian ministry). I really have no time to contribute to these posts anymore.

yes, on MS platform, I now have to go to working 12 hr works days and am now at almost working 7-days a week (thank God I am paid hourly).

I will remain a mac user for 95% of my needs. I am a happy switcher to the mac way of life, still will continue the long process of switching my docs from propriatary formats on the MS platform to a more supported format for both mac and my few friends who still use windows, and I will still be convincing more and more people to switch to mac.

I also understand from what I read that Apple owns and monitors this forum frequently, so I hope they continue to hear our concerns. However, I think more progress would be made bringing issues to apple directly; through their preferred technical submissions (get support from the source, and also who wants to read through 30+ pages of whining). :eek:

I know from contacting Apple in the past directly, I got a better response and more help than when I tried to contact MS in the past about their issues. MS always come back and say "one question per incident report", I will only answer X - and also the fact that they are starting to charge for support and questions. I love the fact that Apple has genius bars at their stores and their staff is always friendly and ready to assist you (unlike my recent experiences trying to get a friends and also a clients laptops repaired).

I will always look to Macrumors to see what is coming out, but I am dropping out of the speculations.

good luck to you all, there is more to my life than this forum. I am concentrating more on my work, my family, and my Christian ministry rather than following these trends. I will also continue the best tool for the job in my needs (so no screwups please - I just got to my happy place with owning a mac). And hopefully someday in the future, I can bow out of I/T all together and settle down my life a little more - an also concentrate on my passion which is Christian ministry.

if you think I am this passionate about I/T, apple, etc - you should see my passion about leading people to a relationship with Jesus Christ and seeing them change their lives.:)

[Full of Win]

10.5 = proof of having too many irons in the fire is a bad thing

[bryanzak]

The reality is Leopard had problems.

Guess what?

Tiger had problems. Lots of them. So did 10.3. And Mac OS 9. And Mac OS 7.5 (omg remember 7.5.1?), etc. etc.

You somehow think bugs in OS software is new?

Mac OS X is at least one, if not two, orders of magnitude larger and more complex than the Mac OS delivered ten years ago. Yet the number of problems and severity hasn't really changed. All software has bugs. Bugs get fixed. New features get add, new bugs appear, new updates come out with fixes.

There's nothing new going on here. It's always been this way and always will be.

[Eric S.]

As to my references to code, I am writing as a layman. When I write 'code' I really mean features needing rewrites to perform as they are intended. The bare bones of how you achieve that and UNIX coding from the 1970s leaves me, and most Mac users (although admittedly not so much here), cold.

Well OK, but "code" has a specific meaning, especially to us coders. And some of us were around in the 1970s, and even before that, so that kinda has a special meaning too. :)

This is like the old joke about the definition of "recession" and "depression" - you know, it's a recession when your neighbor is out of work but it's a depression when you're out of work. In this case, Leopard bugs are minor when other users are experiencing them but they're major when you're affected. Maybe I'm just lucky, but Leopard has always run fine on my old G4 tower. Other people report lots of problems but for me Tiger was great and Leopard is also great.

But I can well believe that every new feature that Leopard introduced will show up with some bug somewhere that eventually will be fixed. The amount of code that these fixes change however will be small, especially in comparison to the overall (massive) amount of code in the entire OS X release.

[vansouza]

10.5.4 was so small (55 megs) I think all it changed was the version number in About This Mac.

[milo]

10.5.4 was so small (55 megs) I think all it changed was the version number in About This Mac.

"Was"?

[seashellz]

>>As far as I'm concerned, faster releases just mean they're getting better at getting fixes done fast and getting them out the door. To be honest, I'd love to see more quick releases using a 10.5.3.1 model (and that goes for all apps and OSs)...but then the accusations would really fly...how dare apple improve their OS so often?
------
MAYBE...
But would you like to have to take your car to your mechanic once a week or once every six months?

If once a week id either fire my mechanic or else my GM/Toyota/Maserati vehicle, rather than congratulate him on your at least being able to make it back to the garage each time for fixes.

My thought is if they do it right, we should see fewer updates, not more-excepting security patches
-------
After 3 tries with Leo-Im back to rock solid stable 10.4.11...maybe by 10.5.5 they will get it right

[Stridder44]

People don't expect support forever, they just expect it for a reasonable length of time, and 3 years is on the short side.

I don't know what's funnier; the people who are debating the name of 10.6 (who cares!!?), or the PPC users who are so surprised by the "abandoning" of their G5's. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys were also pissed they removed classic support too. :rolleyes:

10.5 = proof of having too many irons in the fire is a bad thing

Which is why removing PPC is a good thing. It's dead. It's been dead for a while. Get over it!

[wHo_tHe]

10.5.4 is a minimal update:

* Fix CS3 issues
* Support new devices to be released Monday

We'll see 10.5.4 in SU Monday.

[milo]

I don't know what's funnier; the people who are debating the name of 10.6 (who cares!!?), or the PPC users who are so surprised by the "abandoning" of their G5's.

I don't think any of us are surprised, just disappointed. And I don't see what's particularly funny about that. Whatever machine you own now, I assume you have an expectation of how long Apple will support it - if that turns out to be a year or two shorter than what you expected when you bought the machine, are you going to be laughing about it?

[Eric S.]

I don't know what's funnier; the people who are debating the name of 10.6 (who cares!!?), or the PPC users who are so surprised by the "abandoning" of their G5's. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys were also pissed they removed classic support too. :rolleyes:

Absolutely. And it really isn't a joke.

Which is why removing PPC is a good thing. It's dead. It's been dead for a while. Get over it!

The pisser is that this is only being done for marketing reasons, not technical ones. As others have said, it's one thing to end OS support for hardware incapable of running the latest technology. That is expected. But this is only being done for the sake of Apple profits. Why should I "get over" that?

[williedigital]

Users are no more likely to experience problems with leopard than they were with tiger. The only differences are:

1. WAY more users of Leopard than Tiger. Apple has been blowing up--havent you noticed? If 1% of users had issues with Tiger and .75% had issues with Leopard, since the install base is so much larger at the X.X.3 mark, there are a larger total number of users with problems.

2. Different type of users. As apple goes more and more mainstream, the general level of computer nerdishness among users will go down, and people will be unable to fix problems themselves, instead coming to forums to complain about why their never-updated firmware netgear router from 2003 doesn't work with the wifi in leopard.

[netdog]

Users are no more likely to experience problems with leopard than they were with tiger. The only differences are:

1. WAY more users of Leopard than Tiger. Apple has been blowing up--havent you noticed? If 1% of users had issues with Tiger and .75% had issues with Leopard, since the install base is so much larger at the X.X.3 mark, there are a larger total number of users with problems.

2. Different type of users. As apple goes more and more mainstream, the general level of computer nerdishness among users will go down, and people will be unable to fix problems themselves, instead coming to forums to complain about why their never-updated firmware netgear router from 2003 doesn't work with the wifi in leopard.

I'm very good with computers, and Leopard seems more unstable to me than late Tiger builds. This is true in my experience on 2 iMacs, a MacBook, a MacBook Pro, 2 MBAs and a Mac Pro. Granted, the MBAs and the Pro never ran Tiger, but I still get the idea quite clearly that Leopard has never been very stable, and 10.5.3 may have made matters worse.

[Earendil]

I'll start by commenting on your last line. Ranting is fine at times, as long as you don't think you represent everyone :-)
I'll do the same in my own rant :-)

I think the fact 10.5.4 is being seeded only ONE WEEK after 10.5.3 shows Leopard is a huge lump of a mistake. Indeed, talk of rapid change to 10.6 suggests Leopard is being abandoned for a re-write of the OS. A tacit admission of failure.

Or a tacit admission of progress? Every OS is "abandoned" for the next thing the company produces, not because the old doesn't still serve it's purpose, is broken, or anything negative, but because the company believes they can do it better still (which results in sales, surely) and make something the user will enjoy.

As far as quick point update releases, I would bet that Apple had two teams working on two different sets of problems and implementations. If 10.5.4 is right around the corner, than it is probably more a support update, not a bug fix update. But that doesn't mean that they won't incorporate any new fixes that they have at the time it is passed out.

Leopard has been a disaster for users, breaking machines, frequently crashing (and ruining the previous excellent stability record of OS X) and being pathetic with wifi.

I guess I'm one of the lucky users that has had NO problems with leopard, and I use my laptop on multi platform networks, hard wires and wireless, with a device for every single port my Powerbook has (minus the mic) and use them all at once. I don't use all iLife apps certainly, but am an avid photographer and am amazed at how well my computer still handles the images my 20D spits out.

I am lucky to have two Macs, my main being an iMac, but I have a Powerbook 12". Whilst I have opted to upgrade the iMac, the Powerbook remains on Tiger and the difference shows. There have been times I have had to turn to the Powerbook for reliability of the OS to complete work. There are no wifi problems with the PB - despite the Al casing - whilst the iMac hangs... sitting next to the laptop. There are some on this forum who consistently deny there are problems with Leopard's wifi handling, blaming ISPs and hardware. Ask any Apple Store Genius and they will tell you what we all know: Leopard breaks wifi. Indeed they are fed up with half their daily work appeasing Leopard users with problems that needs OS fixes and can't be solved in store.

I am not a power user, but if I have problems with some website building (don't get me started on iWeb), word processing, Net use and DVD authoring what must power-users who have deadlines and deals on the line be going through?

They must either be going out of business, not having the problem at all, or finding a fix. There aren't many other options.

I am a long-term reader of the forums, and I am sorry if I come across as negative, but Apple have seriously dropped the ball on the software.

And I don't see that at all. The recent advances in Apple's software continue to surprise and amaze me. Perhaps some of this comes from looking at it from the point of a Computer science major, and I do need to remember at times that the beauty of the ability isn't always as important as the end result of the software. But I can't help but look at software from many different companies on a weekly basis and find obvious and stupid bugs, UI implementation, and inconsistency that is quite infrequent in the majority of Apple's applications.

Let's look at the recent history: Pages, iWeb, iPhoto 08, iMovie 08 and Leopard were all useless on launch, and iWeb, iMovie 08 and Leopard are still inferior releases.

if iMovie was inferior it wasn't due so much to bad programming, as much as bad choices to ever ship it. They THOUGHT costumers would like it more (you know, so they could sell it) but costumers did not, and I believe they resolved that in some fashion?

I of course, on an experience level with my own Mac, and my Families other PPC, and 4 Intel based laptops all running Leopard, would have to disagree that Leopard is any sort of standard on shoddy work. For us it works quite well. (And that would be Two Computer Scientists, a Doctor, and 3 Artists for the record, who all use their Mac in their field daily, all but me, stupid PPC :))

The recent profit boost has come from iMac sales, not iPod/iPhone sales. Yes these latter items are technically brilliant and shiny, but Macs are the core and where the profits are, losing sight of that and focusing on the periphery could bring Apple tumbling down.

I don't think they have lost site of their Computers at all. These devices are enabling Apple, not dragging them down. They are bring new costumers, and better than that, are a test bed for future technology.

Apple has produced a Cross platform device that isn't a computer, and yet puts OSX in everyones hands, along with this new fangled touch screen technology, a technology that most people haven't seen used in the way its implamented on the iPhone/Touch. This technology is just BOUND to make it into future Apple computers, and I honestly think it will make it to computers FASTER than if Apple had tried to go straight to their core computers with the technology as a first step. For starters, the technology would have flopped. Now Apple has a name in the touch screen world. Their OS Engineers have experience, applied, practical experience with feedback from costumers. On a small managable scale they are figuring out what works and does not work, and this knowledge is directly applicable to the steps taken to bring it to Laptops/Desktops/PDA devices.


Finally, I am amused some think "Snow Leopard" will be the first OS to drop PowerPC support... surely that was Leopard 10.5.0? Reading these forums the bulk of the complaints come from G4/G5 users, so it is clear Apple have dropped support there.

Thanks for letting me rant!

Having more problems from PPC users, especially really old PPC machines, is no surprise, is it? It's harder to test for all these machines, and it IS harder to care. It's a bigger deal if a bunch of intel chips flop than if all the Bondi Blue iMacs do, right?

At this point in time my trust laptop, with 3 Kernel panics to its name, has served me for 4.5 years, and is coming up on the designs 5 year anniversary. At this point in time, if I install a new piece of software I pray to God it works, but am not surprised if it doesn't. Operating Systems are in the top 3 category of Intricate, complicated, sophisticated, and blindly brilliant pieces of software produced today, and OSX is no exception.

I'm not trying to discredit you, because I believe you have problems. But I also know that many many people do not, and yet you talk as if you represent the world and Apple is going to the gutter. Personally I think Apple is stronger than it ever has been, both as a company, as well as by the products they produce. But that is just my opinion based on my own experience, and nothing more.

[/end rant]

Cheers,
~Earendil

[iJawn108]

perhapse snowleopard is 64 bit only :O

[Earendil]

I'm starting to think, with all these recent threads and posts concerning software, and the software development cycle, that MacRumors could use a sticky/wiki explaining those two concepts and ideas.

Lord knows the rest of the world needs them, but for our own uses it would be nice to direct people to someplace local...

Okay, back on topic!


It appears to me that Apple isn't so much trying harder, as they are having great success at being productive. This doesn't have to have anything to do with the number of people, or the amount of money thrown at it, and so may have absolutely nothing to do with management. Apple didn't just suddenly "choose" to fix bugs or release things faster, they are just capable of it, and so are doing it as fast they can.

[MacGohil]

No, but seeding one week later shows they were releasing 10.5.3 knowing it still had bugs to be fixed. And it came in at >500Mb... of fixes, and more to come! Maybe we should be done with it and have a newly written OS and put Leopard in history?

Releasing a seed for the next update days within releasing the previous does not at all indicates that Leopard is flawed. There can be other reasons for this:


We can expect 10.5.4 might add some modules for the upcoming products which might start shipping post WWDC.
Some other pre-branching modules to be added before they branch it to Snow-Leopard.
We cant see the big or the small picture because most of us are end users. We all are just speculating.


And may be I am lucky but I run my leopard too on Penryn based Macbook Pro with VMWare and other programs running on it 24x7 and at times I have left my machine running for a couple weeks without needing to restart it.

Perfection comes at a price.... and if that it means I have to update it at regular intervals.... I more than welcome it.

Everybody is the master of their own trade... so let the apple engineers work and do the talking.... No point ranting about of the though speculations!

[Trip.Tucker]

I thought the WOW had already begun?

Redmond, trade in your photocopiers for a Mac and a decent scanner...

WOW has been around for a few years now, look at all the guilds and clans playing it! :cool:

[TwinCities Dan]

There are some on this forum who consistently deny there are problems with Leopard's wifi handling, blaming ISPs and hardware. Ask any Apple Store Genius and they will tell you what we all know: Leopard breaks wifi.

This is completely false, I have never had a wifi problem with my Airport Extreme. :rolleyes:

[TwinCities Dan]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

I was really hoping for the code name of 10.6 to be Lion. Snow Leopard sounds like a minor update to Leopard.

Kinda sounds like it is? No new features yet? We'll see soon enough...

[Eric S.]

I was really hoping for the code name of 10.6 to be Lion.

For a big cat, the lion is heavy, slow, and generally inactive. I'm not sure that's the image Apple wants to project in their OS.:rolleyes:

[TwinCities Dan]

time to say good-bye:(



Don't leave us Scott, many of us like reading your posts (very insightful) and you will be missed. :(

If your personal/professional life requires you leaving then what can you do? But, if you are leaving because of what people post on here, know that many people like reading the debates from an educated/logical person such as yourself.

I hope you reconsider, best of luck... :)

[TwinCities Dan]

instead coming to forums to complain about why their never-updated firmware netgear router from 2003 doesn't work with the wifi in leopard.

That's the sound of the nail getting hit right on the head! :D

[rhett7660]

I am kind of wondering what another poster said. Maybe it will be a true 64bit os? Taking leopard to the next level. But then again what do I know I am pretty new to the whole Mac thing. But his makes for some very good reading.

[Earendil]

I am kind of wondering what another poster said. Maybe it will be a true 64bit os? Taking leopard to the next level. But then again what do I know I am pretty new to the whole Mac thing. But his makes for some very good reading.

Which is actually a good point. With my PPC I haven't been keeping track of specifics ont he intel chips. Are all INtel chips truely 64 bit? Have they been since they went into Macs?

I suppose it would make sense for Apple to possibly offer a 64bit version of leopard with all the cocoa code ripped out of it with the PPC Universal binaries as well, and off it as a "Snow Leopard". No real UI changes, nothing any novice would ever notice, and certainly nothing most of us would pay $130 for.

However, if that were all offered, it would represent a large amount of work, work that has to be done for future OSX versions, and may be needed now for some of the smaller devices that Apple is coming out with like the iPhone and possibly other sub-computer devices down the line.

Perhaps if they offered it as a power user upgrade for $50 or something we'd all be happy? It would probably represent a speed increase, and inherent security upgrade due to there being less code for a hacker to poke holes in.

Thoughts anyone?

[137489]

Don't leave us Scott, many of us like reading your posts (very insightful) and you will be missed. :(

If your personal/professional life requires you leaving then what can you do? But, if you are leaving because of what people post on here, know that many people like reading the debates from an educated/logical person such as yourself.

I hope you reconsider, best of luck... :)

ok, maybe I will just take a backseat and only post some (if I see a debate getting too wild in speculation, or what I think needs to happen)...

I have a lot of knowledge in I/T (20+ years at various levels from application support, programming/development, and lower management - plus I have 1 5-shelved bookshelf of books in various programming languages and 35gb of electronic I/T and programming books).

I always seem to be helping out someone [or shedding light and helping people understand] more than I have the time for (like right now, I am fighting with Dell to get parts for a computer a friend aquired and needs fixed). He is a good friend, so I wanted to help in out - but in all reality I could've told him what to order (umm, then again considering his hardware knowledge, maybe not :rolleyes:) and let him spend the 5 days on the phone for 1-2 hrs getting transferred between 20 different people, only to have to re-order the part because Dell screwed up and cancelled my order and never informed me.

But seriously... My personal and professional life is taking up a lot of time. :( I need to also try to find some chill time to relax and refocus on what I am going to seminary for, and the reasons why I am looking to eventually leave I/T. I am spending a way too many hours in front of a computer than with my wife, or really making a difference that matters. I also have been working so much that I only have acquaintaces and do not have time for real friends or the hobbies I used to enjoy (Fishing, Canoeing, just reading a good book by the fire).

I also see a lot of trends happening in the I/T world that worries me about my future in the industry and where it is headed (contract only positions for short term projects, which usually means moving a lot). I have already been offered positions (and I am not even looking - I have a programming job I am happy at) to work 6 months here, 3 months there, and a few weeks in yet another part of the country. do I really want to devote the rest of my life to an industry that is taking wild swings, has more so/so days or headaches than good, and takes me away from what really matters?

Some people say I am getting burnt out, some say that because I turn 40 in January I am going through a mid-life crisis (nah, that can't be it - I have no desire in sports cars, taking daring extreme vacations, nor looking for a younger women).

Say what you want about Bill Gates. There is one thing I do admire him for. He spend his career building a legacy of a company, never lost perspective of helping his fellow man, and now that his time is done at MS - he is turning more attention to what really matters and building that legacy -> his family and human life through his charity. Just think where the world would be without the Bill Gates, Jimmy Carters (Habitat for humanity - at almost 80, he is still out there hammering nails into boards so that the less fortunate have a roof over their heads, they can call their own), or even people we never even heard of that other people say wow, I am better off because they came into my life.

I look at my life, and I say - what legacy am I leaving. i spent 20 years thinking of my career and computers. Do I want my next 20 to be like that, or do I want to build a legacy that carries on and people remember me more than just seeing the back of my head in front of 2 glowing boxes (I have dual screens). Like now, my wife just yelled to me to come to bed. yet another night I just got home from school and I am sitting here on a computer instead of settling down for the night.

No, I am not looking for glory by any means, that will come when I am in heaven with Jesus. I just want my life to be more than my job. My job makes me money to live. My job does not define who I am, which for too long I saw myself as that. I even sat there some nights thinking I could not go on if I was not doing computers some how.

my pastor gave us for keys to life that I wish I learned long ago.

1. love your God with all your heart and all your soul.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
3. Never borrow money on anything that will depreciate.
4. for every dollar you earn, give 10 cents to God, 10 cents to your self (savings), and live on the other 80 cents.

With that you will always have what you need, never be without, always be happy and satisfied and will never depend on the government for social security.

I will be here if you have questions. i will also be buying .mac after all the rumors settle down about the future of that and will be starting a smaller version of the website i used to run.

[gikku]

10.4.11

[doug in albq]

10.4.11

10.4.10 might be better.

My aluminum 2.0ghz came out in Aug. of 2007, and it's computer-specific discs are an intel version of 10.4.10.

I am starting to feel lucky to have purchased this specific machine when i did.

Having the machine set up as a dual-boot 10.4/10.5, I am using 10.4 most all the time. Rock solid os.

[Jonny75]

Wow, some of the comments here have been aimed at me for daring to share my experiences, referring to press criticisms and having an real life/user of 15yrs (not programmer) opinion.

Following the thread I know the administrators have been removing attacks, but I think it strengthens my argument that there are those who cannot argue against me, but will try and insult me. I appreciate all the comments which have been more constructive-- this is a rumours and discussion site and debate can be provocative and not diktat. You cannot bully silence and criticism out of the forum.

I really don't have more to say, but I think it rather sad some can't have debate and believe their own hype. It only feeds the views outside of the Apple community that there are Fanboys who are still subject to the reality distortion field and are really... quite pathetic in their fanaticism and manner. The vitriolic manner has also lead to public announcements of leaving the forum.


Shame.

[nyc-mac]

Don't see a lot of (any?) postings here by system admins in prepress / production... you guys realize that 1053 and Abode CS3 (in a server environment) hate each other, right? It has been a huge flaw and I'm sure there were some younger techs that just applied the update after it was released instead of sandboxing / doing a test machine first that lost their jobs. Basically, if you are running CS3 and opening docs on a server (AFP/SMB no matter) it eats the docs. Corruption.
Also---> Despite major nice things in 1053 it was still not keeping bound well in Active Directory environs ... and that's even when the AD box was used as a time server.
Oh how I wait for 1054 so that I can move on with my life!!!111!! Its kind of like Office 2008 before the service pack; it can do the job but it has some major drawbacks that keep admins doing junk instead of fun stuff like planning images with site licensed software, etc.
Just my 2 cents (an my first post on MacRumors, BTW, despite reading and admiring it for several years)

[ianpyst]

Wow, some of the comments here have been aimed at me for daring to share my experiences, referring to press criticisms and having an real life/user of 15yrs (not programmer) opinion.

Following the thread I know the administrators have been removing attacks, but I think it strengthens my argument that there are those who cannot argue against me, but will try and insult me. I appreciate all the comments which have been more constructive-- this is a rumours and discussion site and debate can be provocative and not diktat. You cannot bully silence and criticism out of the forum.

I really don't have more to say, but I think it rather sad some can't have debate and believe their own hype. It only feeds the views outside of the Apple community that there are Fanboys who are still subject to the reality distortion field and are really... quite pathetic in their fanaticism and manner. The vitriolic manner has also lead to public announcements of leaving the forum.


Shame.

Don't take this as an attack against you...

But seriously, because one sees something in a different light then you does not make them a fanboy. I have been watching this, somewhat lengthy, thread (on 5 pages, but oh well ^_~). People do get heated, but if you are all for debates, than you should know and welcome this as a sign of a real debate. And yes, personal attacks occur.

However, some things you said i find technically incorrect. I think we should both be able to agree that it doesn't make me an Apple fanboy for my somewhat opposite view.

The reason i mention this is all due to a very simple fact: You don't post about it if it isn't broken (this is generally speaking of course, but such statements usually are) You are going to post something somewhere or mention to someone your problem that is ailing you then someone who is feeling great. Sure people sometimes do post about feeling great (or on behalf of their computers ^^), but that is just the details of a matter and can be expected.

With all the documented problems with Leopard, your presenting it as a flawed OS (and mentioned something close to that). This seems to be what i see as the reasons some people have gotten heated with you. Unfortunately, this also brings down your credibility in many eyes, mostly due to cross generic statements that do no one good. I say this purely to plug this in: Research the number of copies that Leopard has sold. This should include the number of pre-installed copies, upgrade cds, and boxes. Compare this to the number of documented cases of issues. While there are plenty, the average user you seem to be pushing so hard as, does not notice the issues, has no real basis for comparison, has someone else fix it, it works perfectly (which has been the case for the 300+ Macs i maintain in my area that are running leopard) or is a windows convert and still sees it as an improvement (zing! :D ... 下手な冗談を言う、分かってるよ。).

My point is, even with a small fraction of people complaining that its more broken then x.x.x, it's doing perfectly well. You may view it differently but that is your view and i am fine with that. You should be fine with others views as well, no matter if it irks you or if you think differently. Remember: Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win, your still r374rd3d.

On topic: Bring on 10.5.4! I look forward to whatever possible improvements it brings. ^_~

[snorkeller1]

... like running in the special olympics; even if you win, your still r374rd3d.

If that reads 'retarded', OUCH!

Running Leopard on a G4 Quicksilver containing non-Apple CPU upgrade, various PCI cards, bluetooth-dongle etc, it's been feeling more solid than 10.4.11.

I have to agree with ArsTechnica about the amount of 'under-the-hood' work that has been put into Leopard, and it's solidness since September 2007 -
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/mac-os-x-10-5.ars/15

Hopefully, Leopard will gain stronger and longer legs as it evolves, so that these aging G4/5s can die happy.