Is Panther really worth it???

[djtet]

I've been doing a little research on upgrading to Panther, and before it was released I was ready to buy. But when it did come out, many Mac users were complaining about bugs, compatibility issues, etc. I'm using a DP G4 1.25 Powermac runnning 10.2.6 and am wondering if 10.3 is really worth it? Should I spend the money now, or wait??? Will I experience any driver issues, bugs, third party software issues??? Overall, what are your experiences with this new OS???

[Counterfit]

Buy It.

[gwuMACaddict]

get it...

it works fine on my new imac17inchers... but it REALLY sped up my older imacG3500. i say go for it.

:D

[Versello]

Depends if you want new features such as fast user-switching, expose (with the little accent mark) and better windows networking support to name a few.

I haven't come across any compatability issues...

[Nermal]

I think it's a very good buy. However, I might be biased since I got it for free :)

[sahnert]

Originally posted by Versello
Depends if you want new features such as fast user-switching, expose (with the little accent mark) and better windows networking support to name a few.

I haven't come across any compatability issues...

I've read from several posters that Windows Networking is actually worse under panther. I'd still like to hear a solid consensus on that one before I shell out the cash. Although it's almost worth it just for expose, especially on my 12" PB.

[caveman_uk]

Well browsing through the finder 'Network' thing sucks as there doesn'tt seem to be a proper way of disconnecting from shares so when you eventually do you get a load of crappy 'disconnect?' messages for the next ten minutes - especially on a large windows based LAN. If you don't disconnect properly it breaks all the aliases the finder sets up and to fix it you have to delete them and restart the machine. If you don't do this it can't find the servers again as the aliases it keeps are broken. Quite frankly a PITA. It's broke and doesn't work properly.

Having said that the 'Go To Server' option on one of the menus works much the same as it ever did and properly mounts the share on your desktop. You can then properly unmount and everyone's happy. Personally I've had no problems with this method browsing a largish W2K network.

I haven't had any other Panther-related problems on either a 800Mhz ibook or a a 1GHz DP PM G4.

[David Lundgren]

I'm using Remote Desktop to do Filemaker work on Windows 2000 Pro desktops and W2000 Servers over VPN connections with Panther, from my 15" PB. Works flawlessly.

Expose is worth the price of admission all by itself anyhow, even with the two monitors I usually have going. Great stuff.

[jayscheuerle]

If you don't use a second monitor or fonts, it'll be great.

[Squire]

Well this thread has made me feel more secure about my decision to buy it within the next month or so. I was thinking of just mailing my Jaguar CD to my folks and getting them to shell out 40 bucks for iChat AV.

Expose is what I would want it for most. Oh, and AppleWorks. (For some reason, I can't download the update.) It does read Microsoft Word documents now, doesn't it?

Squire

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Squire
Expose is what I would want it for most. Oh, and AppleWorks. (For some reason, I can't download the update.) It does read Microsoft Word documents now, doesn't it?

Squire

Appleworks doesn't come with Panther.

Its big update is in the works...

[David Lundgren]

I have the same question re Appleworks: will it read and save Word and Excel documents? I really hate to have to go to Office on a Mac, and Think Free is not quite right for me, though it's pretty close. I'd prefer AW if I can go cross platform with the results.

Almost forgot: I think Apple has the next killer app with iChat AV if they market it enough. There are business uses for it that could be amazing, much less the personal stuff. They should be pushing an ad campaign on that right now as hard as they can, with Christmas here.

There's an article in Wired News on 101 Uses for iChat AV that includes a couple of sample sessions; that and the keynote demo that Steve Jobs did (google for Steve Jobsw video) should make anyone think.

[mj_1903]

Remember, if you are in need of light editing of Word documents, TextEdit will happily suffice.

For heavier documents, try OpenOffice.org as an excellent replacement (although it doesn't do a fantastic job of looking like Mac OS X).

As for Panther, I know I have switched product of all my Apps to Panther only and many other developers are doing the same, so not only will you start to miss out on the OS upgrade, but you will miss out on all those small shareware apps that you may use.

[David Lundgren]

I have to do a lot of business proposal and contract type letters, and more spreadsheet stuff than I ever wanted to do :p

Gotta have the ability to go across with both types, and the proposals have all the usual headers and footers, indents, bullet lists, that kind of stuff. Normal word processing stuff, but heavier than Text Edit.

Anyone using Apple Works for this kind of routine use with comments?

I have thought about Open Office but haven't looked at it yet.

[Squire]

I know this is off topic but has all of this word processing talk got me thinking: have we heard any other info on Document, Apple's rumored attempt at an MS Word killer?

Squire

[coolsoldier]

Regarding AppleWorks, I have used AppleWorks w/ word translators for routine .doc and .xls editing since I got the new version bundled with my iBook. Basically, it just includes the MacLinkPlus translators (eliminating the extra step of buying/running MacLinkPlus). If the files you want to open don't work right using the MacLinkPlus translators they won't work right in AppleWorks. For most uses, though, AW handles word and excel documents fine.

Personally, I like TextEdit for word processing better than AW's word processor, and it's RTF files work great with MS word. AW's spreadsheet and drawing are great, though.

You do not need panther to do this, though. Panther is great for other uses (The Finder is now decent enough that I don't have to pay for Finder Replacements, and I don't know how I lived w/o Exposé and Fast Switching)

[FuzzyBallz]

The same people who tell you to get Panther ASAP are the same people who tell you to get a 17" PB just 'cause it looks cool.

If you're happy w/ Jag, stay w/ it. I still don't see what the improvement Panther has over Jag. The thing that stands out the most is when you close the System Preferences window, the actual program closes in Panther, whereas in Jag it remains open until you go File > Exit. Wow

Please don't list all the useless toys Jobs added in, I don't use them.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by FuzzyBallz
Please don't list all the useless toys Jobs added in, I don't use them. They may be useless to you, but the rest of us use them.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by Counterfit
They may be useless to you, but the rest of us use them. true but the software is getting bigger and bigger and more bloated and more bloated. also im a little tired of the new os every year. i guess thats progress

[Fukui]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
true but the software is getting bigger and bigger and more bloated and more bloated. also im a little tired of the new os every year. i guess thats progress
Maybe, but I for one, am very happy to NOT be stuck in jaguar...while it was great, panther fixes a lot of things (except windows networking)...its nice but if I were you, I'd wait until 10.3.2 at least.

[djtet]

I really appreciate all of the insight from panther and non-panther users.

I have decided to hold off on my purchase of panther until at least the holiday season is over. Maybe if they have an update sometime in January I'll look into getting it then.

I appreciate all of the advise on this subject!!!

[johnnyjibbs]

My Panther upgrade discs arrive today - thanks Apple!

I upgrade-installed and everything has worked fine and it is faster. It crashed earlier when I tried to delete about 30 emails at once in Netscape mail but apart from that everything has been fine!

I'm really pleased with Expose. I know everyone says that but you don't know how good it is until you use it. I'm going to miss it when I use my home Win XP machine!

Mail and Safari are much better too. Mail actually displays HTML emails properly and my Safari now works in loading up secure sites behind my uni firewall! I thought the 'Organise mail by thread' would just be a gimmick but it's actually really useful.

Fast user switching is a neat feature but I don't have multiple users so it's limited for me. I love the cube effect though.

Connecting to my uni network hasn't been any problem and I have to confess that I'm warming round to the new metal finder. The DVD player is awesome too - very slick and much more useful. It now plays all my DVDs properly!

I love the new refined aqua as well - the anti-aliased pinstripes are much gentler on the eye and the animations are nice while still being quicker than Jaguar.

All in all, I may have picked up Panther for £14 but I still think it's worth the £99 ($129) full price. A lot of the stuff you don't think you'll need but it turns out that the little upgrades here and there really make your life simpler. And I haven't even mentioned half the other stuff (such as the MUCH BETTER preview app).

Oh and I don't know what they've done with the font anti-aliasing but everything looks much smoother and nicer!

Take the plunge - it's worth it! :)

[Fukui]

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
I love the new refined aqua as well - the anti-aliased pinstripes are much gentler on the eye and the animations are nice while still being quicker than Jaguar.

Yes, the graphics are easier on the eye, and more refined, thats definitely much nicer.

[johnnyjibbs]

One thing though. Panther has crashed twice today (the first day of having it). I haven't done anything particularly taxing today. Both times it was the Finder itself.

The first time was a Windows-esque crash (everything freezes, can't do anything). The second time the Finder crashed but all my apps were running perfectly. I tried to relaunch the Finder but that didn't do anything. Expose stopped working, as did the dock. I couldn't even shut the computer or restart it properly. And I'm running 10.3.1.

Is the Finder just a little bit buggy at the moment? Everything else is perfect.

[Fukui]

I think its pretty obvious (from the extreme bugginess of every single release) that the Finder as we know it needs to permanently visit the trash can...

[coolsoldier]

I think the big problem with Panther is the upgrade. I have a laptop and a desktop -- one of them (iBook) I did a scratch wipe and install, and one (iMac) I did an upgrade. The 'book has seen no problems whatsoever with Panther. The desktop has been prone to crashes and several of my apps (mail, iChat) stopped working so I had to copy them over from my (clean install) laptop. So I think perhaps the problem is with the installer not updating all of the files properly. Has anybody who has done a clean install had stability problems?

[Kyle]

I say no, because the only thing I like about it are the aesthetic differences. I don't have a need for Expose.

Although, it did fix my printer problems...

[Potus]

I'm bitterly disappointed. No discernible improvements except for a slight increase in speed. The change in the interface is irritating. But I could live with all that if I could still use iCal, iSync and my PDA to manage my life. Can't do it and therefore can't "like" the new cat.

And I don't "get" Exposé. Please someone explain why having all that stuff on the desktop and then having all of them stacked when one of them is used is an improvement?

[Dale Sorel]

Originally posted by Potus
I'm bitterly disappointed.

Proof that you can't please all the people all the time :rolleyes:

[Potus]

Yes. But the problems with syncing are substantial and significan. Particlarly when you consider that iCal and iSync are central features to the Jobs system's "package"

[johnnyjibbs]

On the contrary, I can't believe how many improvements there are. There are FAR more features and improvements than was ever publicised. Improved Mail and Address Book is worth the price alone IMO. And I'm just glad I can access secure sites in Safari from my uni room (they ought to fix that in Jaguar!)

Stability-wise, it hasn't crashed since my first day and nothing has unexpedely quit yet, not even Safari!

[Potus]

After trying to sync w/Panther it wiped Address Book.

Your mileage may differ.

[CalfCanuck]

Originally posted by coolsoldier
So I think perhaps the problem is with the installer not updating all of the files properly. Has anybody who has done a clean install had stability problems?

I have a stock iBook G4 933, that came with 10.3 installed. I've had nothing but troubles, averaging 1-2 kernel panics a day. I've been trying to bebug all the possible causes, and it's been a bit frustrating.

At first I thought it might be my FW 800 external drive (bought in anticipation of the new PB's - when production stopped while they fixed the screen problems, I bought a iBook as a 3 month stop-gap). But the crashes continued even after I stopped using the drive for a week. Then I thought it might be RAMM related, but the 512 MB RAMM that came installed from macconnection always checks out with the i-Book Hardware Test CD.

I then thought it might be due to Office (esp. Entourage), and seemed to crash less when I shut these down after short usage, but some crashes continued. I'm a little baffled - I've set up the machine with a fair number of high end apps but try not to run more than one at the same time.

Had another kernel panic today when launching Entourage after running the new version of Cumulus (6, just released this last week).

So to sum up, not all problems are due to poorly planned upgrades. While this could all be my machine, it's hard to pin down some recurring problem.

[Potus]

I feel ya'. Spent 4 hours last night trying to pin down a problem. This reminds me of Jaguar beta. P'raps, Panther is really a beta in cat's clothing.

[johnnyjibbs]

Originally posted by CalfCanuck
I have a stock iBook G4 933, that came with 10.3 installed. I've had nothing but troubles, averaging 1-2 kernel panics a day. I've been trying to bebug all the possible causes, and it's been a bit frustrating.
If I were you I'd take it back and ask Apple for a replacement. It seems as though you have a dodgy motherboard. I would have thought a kernel panic a day is unacceptable - that's worse than Windows!;)

[Fukui]

Originally posted by CalfCanuck
I have a stock iBook G4 933, that came with 10.3 installed. I've had nothing but troubles, averaging 1-2 kernel panics a day. I've been trying to bebug all the possible causes, and it's been a bit frustrating.

At first I thought it might be my FW 800 external drive (bought in anticipation of the new PB's - when production stopped while they fixed the screen problems, I bought a iBook as a 3 month stop-gap). But the crashes continued even after I stopped using the drive for a week. Then I thought it might be RAMM related, but the 512 MB RAMM that came installed from macconnection always checks out with the i-Book Hardware Test CD.

I then thought it might be due to Office (esp. Entourage), and seemed to crash less when I shut these down after short usage, but some crashes continued. I'm a little baffled - I've set up the machine with a fair number of high end apps but try not to run more than one at the same time.

Had another kernel panic today when launching Entourage after running the new version of Cumulus (6, just released this last week).

So to sum up, not all problems are due to poorly planned upgrades. While this could all be my machine, it's hard to pin down some recurring problem.
Bad RAM. Remove the RAM upgrade and see what happens.

Tried a clean erase and install yet?

[CalfCanuck]

Originally posted by Fukui
Bad RAM. Remove the RAM upgrade and see what happens.

Tried a clean erase and install yet?

I was going to try to remove the RAM, but then I'd only have 128 MB total. Will OSX even boot on that little RAM?

Anyone have any idea how often bad RAM passes Apple's Hardware Test? Unfortunately I"m in Europe on a job for a couple of months, and it's going to be a bummer to try to replace physical parts.

I haven't tried a clean erase and install - since it took me so much time to load up all my programs, I was hoping to stay away from that. Is there much chance that would solve the kernel panic problems?

Thanks for the ideas.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by CalfCanuck
I was going to try to remove the RAM, but then I'd only have 128 MB total. Will OSX even boot on that little RAM?

Yes.

Anyone have any idea how often bad RAM passes Apple's Hardware Test?
It is possible, though I have seen it detect bad RAM...


Since it took me so much time to load up all my programs, I was hoping to stay away from that. Is there much chance that would solve the kernel panic problems?

It is very possible it will clear up the panics. Also, some software installs .kext files which are kernel extensions, which if not compatible with panther, can, you guesed, cause a kernel panic. Esp. Roxio Toast...among others.

Also, you can back up your program folders to a firewire disc, most of them can just be installed by dragging them back to the applications folder or wherever....

I would suggest, though booting up with just the stock ram 128 and see what happens.

[CalfCanuck]

Originally posted by Fukui
Yes.

It is possible, though I have seen it detect bad RAM...


It is very possible it will clear up the panics. Also, some software installs .kext files which are kernel extensions, which if not compatible with panther, can, you guesed, cause a kernel panic. Esp. Roxio Toast...among others.

Also, you can back up your program folders to a firewire disc, most of them can just be installed by dragging them back to the applications folder or wherever....

I would suggest, though booting up with just the stock ram 128 and see what happens.

Thanks for the reply! Well, Toast was one of the first apps I put on, so that's a little telling. I used 5.2.1 - is the new version 6 any better? What are people using to replace Toast (one program I use a lot in m work)?

So I'll start with the RAMM and then move on to a clean erase / install.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by CalfCanuck
Thanks for the reply! Well, Toast was one of the first apps I put on, so that's a little telling. I used 5.2.1 - is the new version 6 any better? What are people using to replace Toast (one program I use a lot in m work)?

So I'll start with the RAMM and then move on to a clean erase / install.

Its possible toast 6 is better...I haven't used Toast in A LONG TIME, but I read all over about trouble with toast and panics...so that might be a problem to look into.

I just use the finder burning, though limited, it can be read on PC's fine, so I have no problem, though of course toast has a lot more options, and burns faster too...

Good luck.

[Counterfit]

One of the new features in Toast 6 is sharing your burner. When turned on, other people using Toast 6 can burn with your drive.

[blue&whiteman]

panther is the bomb diggity dog

[1macker1]

To be honest, I dont see the 150 new features. Expose is cool, and mail is better. But the new Finder is *****. This doesn't feel like a full upgrade, this is more like Jaguar 10.2.9

[johnnyjibbs]

I think the Finder is the worst new addition too. It's like they took two steps forward and one back (or one forward and two back, depending on your preference).

Before I upgraded, I thought I'd hate the brushed metal the most about it, but I find I don't, although it does make it slower. It seems a little buggy but now I love the open/save dialogs and the sidebar. There are just some annoying things in it that I hope will be fixed.

Oh, and Netscape tends to make my whole system crash (only recoverable by holding the power button down). Does anyone have any similar problems with Netscape? I only need it for its HTML emailing capabilities...

[bousozoku]

I don't use composer, but it's also available in the latest Mozilla 1.5.1, which seems pretty stable but has almost all of the same functionality as Netscape 7.x.

The Finder sidebar is useful and consistent everywhere. :) I still wish we were able to do some file operations in the open dialog box.

[Potus]

Originally posted by 1macker1
To be honest, I dont see the 150 new features. Expose is cool, and mail is better. But the new Finder is *****. This doesn't feel like a full upgrade, this is more like Jaguar 10.2.9

So true. Except that Jaguar was more useful.

[johnnyjibbs]

What is it about the Finder and Mac OS X? It sounds like they need to completely redo it (with the sidebar again) but as a completely new COCOA app written from scratch. It's one of the most fundamental parts of the OS yet they seem to spend the least amount of work on it.

I love most of its features except that it is not very stable and why does it sometimes spawn a new window when I just switch to another window (it never used to)? It seems much slower now as well.

[Counterfit]

Wow, I never noticed before that the Finder wasn't Cocoa!

[Fukui]

Originally posted by Counterfit
Wow, I never noticed before that the Finder wasn't Cocoa!
What a fresh coat of paint can accomplish...

You can always tell a Carbon from a Cocoa app is if you right click one of the window buttons (minimize, zoom, close) and it acts the same as if you left clicked. Some carbon apps dont recognize the difference between left and right click, or don't utilize it properly.

Most carbon apps also have thier "services" grayed out. Copy and pasting is problematic, because of carbon apps not using unicode (which they can)...

Anti aliasing is diferent and very subtle...

The biggest telling thing that shows the finder is still carbon...it has the same bugs as before!

[johnnyjibbs]

Originally posted by Fukui
You can always tell a Carbon from a Cocoa app is if you right click one of the window buttons (minimize, zoom, close) and it acts the same as if you left clicked. Some carbon apps dont recognize the difference between left and right click, or don't utilize it properly.
How come then, when I right click the widgets in Safari, nothing happens? I thought Safari was Cocoa? :D

[Fukui]

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
How come then, when I right click the widgets in Safari, nothing happens? I thought Safari was Cocoa? :D
No, I mean in Carbon right clicking is not always recognized correctly (try it in the Finder or Quicktime), this behavior is probably because it came from the OS 9 where ony 1 button was ever used, but Cocoa has always had support for multiple button mice, so it had to differentiate between right/left/middle etc...

[Counterfit]

The method I used was to try and move a window so that part is obscured by the Dock. Cocoa apps don't let you move anything behind the Dock, but Carbon apps are not "Dock-aware" and let you move them freely.

[coolsoldier]

Originally posted by Counterfit
The method I used was to try and move a window so that part is obscured by the Dock. Cocoa apps don't let you move anything behind the Dock, but Carbon apps are not "Dock-aware" and let you move them freely.

This only works if you have your dock on the bottom of the screen. I have my dock on the left side of the screen, and it lets me move any program behind the dock, but if I move the dock to the bottom of the screen, then it keep windows from being blocked by the dock. Also, carbon apps can be written to be dock aware, so that's not quite a foolproof method.

But, if a carbon app is written to be dock aware and support system services, then it really doesn't matter much if it's not a cocoa app, does it?

[Fukui]

Originally posted by coolsoldier

But, if a carbon app is written to be dock aware and support system services, then it really doesn't matter much if it's not a cocoa app, does it?
No, it doesn't, but it is more difficult for developers to. In Cocoa, these things are automatic.

But yea, I agree, we really SHOULD NOT be able to tell the difference at all. Back in the public beta days, I couldn't really tell, but when you use an app like photoshop with its wierd pallets all over the place, or word and Dreamweaver, they just scream carbon...apple has done a good job of making them appear the same though, third party give carbon a bad name.

I think though, its annoying that apple has to concurrently develop two framworks at the same time. When they add functionality to cocoa, what about carbon? Though one can access cocoa from carbon now, its still not as easy as using cocoa directly (carbon events vs other cocoa paradigms)...as another example, using QT from cocoa is still not fun.

At some point, apple is gonna have to say where the line ends, and carbon will just "stay the way it is," kind of like what MS is doing with win32 compared to .NYET...