Obama supporter denied communion

[solvs]

Priest Snubs Lawyer over Obama Endorsement (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91087067)

Conservative lawyer Douglas Kmiec was denied communion recently at a mass connected with a gathering of Catholic business people. The priest denounced Kmiec's endorsement of Sen. Barack Obama, then refused to give Kmiec communion.
More here:

For an 'Obamacon,' Communion Denied (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/02/AR2008060202591.html)

[motulist]

That is completely illegal, as I understand it. Religious institutions are not allowed to endorse any political entities when they're acting in their official religious duties, because that's what gives them tax-free status as a religious group rather than a political group. Sounds like clear grounds for a legitimate lawsuit to me.

[solvs]

He's a lawyer too. Pretty bad. They might have lost a few Obama supporting parishioners as well. You can't really force a church to give communion, or sue them if they don't, right to deny customers and religious freedom and all that, but it does cross a weird line I don't think they should be crossing. After all the kerfuffle over the Wright thing, and I don't think they ever denied anyone religious services despite what you may have heard, least of all for their political preferences. I don't know, maybe they might not be too happy with McCain supporters milling around, but I doubt it would be as bad. If it was, would be just as wrong. And I'm sure all over the news.

[leekohler]

Time to go get some back taxes from that church. We've got to start somewhere before this gets out of control.

[ert3]

Have faith the pope will step in as doing this is sacrilege.

No member of the body of Christ may be denied communion for interpersonal reasons.

That priest just risked excommunication.

[Peace]

Have faith the pope will step in as doing this is sacrilege.

No member of the body of Christ may be denied communion for interpersonal reasons.

That priest just risked excommunication.

You are correct. I was raised a Catholic.

[Queso]

Someone please tell me again why the Church isn't about controlling what people think...

[ert3]

Someone please tell me again why the Church isn't about controlling what people think...

I spent ten years in catholic school and I seriously doubt that the catholic church is not invested in mind control.

[themadchemist]

That is completely illegal, as I understand it. Religious institutions are not allowed to endorse any political entities when they're acting in their official religious duties, because that's what gives them tax-free status as a religious group rather than a political group. Sounds like clear grounds for a legitimate lawsuit to me.

Eh, my guess is that that's dicey. This is more the action of one jerk than an institutional endorsement, especially as evident from the letter of apology issued by the organizers of the event.

[PlaceofDis]

so much for not judging others....

[iJohnHenry]

Perhaps he went to Confession first, and didn't show "contrition" for supporting Obama?? http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/MouseMeat/Smilies/blancs.gif

Or does that not even count anymore??

[mactastic]

Anything that hastens the decline of the current bunch of imbecilic church leaders who feel that their judgement is superior to God's is fine with me. Keep it up guys. In another generation your pews will be half as full as they are now, and you're already complaining about lower numbers...

[Thomas Veil]

Are we gonna go through this communion crap every presidential election now? :rolleyes:

[NT1440]

and now we wait to see the spin that FOX news puts on this........

[Cleverboy]

This is UGLY. For him to use an endorsement as a reason for refusing communion... YIKES.

~ CB

[Dont Hurt Me]

Lawyers ....Rats...... There are some things Rats wont do. Need I say more?

[Sun Baked]

Seems leaving the church is more hurtful to the media hound priests these days. :rolleyes:

[Iscariot]

lawl.

[d_and_n5000]

This is UGLY. For him to use an endorsement as a reason for refusing communion... YIKES.

~ CB

Yep.

It's fair to say that that priest is going down.

There are a lot of people who are big on denying Communion to those who, say, publicly support abortion, but people who publicly support abortion are directly against Church teaching, so that is acceptable in that case. This priest denying this man Communion for such a reason is at best a mortal sin, and might well gain him an excommunication.

This will cause problems. Majorly.

[Sdashiki]

I thought the idea behind Christian beliefs was to convert the non-believers as their saviour?

This is like, the opposite.

119527

[mithrilfox]

That is completely illegal, as I understand it. Religious institutions are not allowed to endorse any political entities when they're acting in their official religious duties, because that's what gives them tax-free status as a religious group rather than a political group. Sounds like clear grounds for a legitimate lawsuit to me.


It's not at all illegal. Many religious groups all over choose to support and encourage support for political candidates. Any group is allowed to conduct "grass roots" political work without losing their status (barring a few specific exceptions).

I've been in churches that talked specifically and pointedly about current political issues and candidates, and I've been in churches that speak only in terms of absolutes with guiding principles from the Bible as to how to use our votes.

The Catholic church has every right as a private institution to refuse communion to whomever they choose and for whatever reason. They refuse to have female priests, but cannot be touched legally for that, because the law has precious little to say over this privately run and operated religious institution's practices. It's their choice.

P.S. I'm not a Catholic, and I don't have a particular for or against position here.

[motulist]

It's not at all illegal. Many religious groups all over choose to support and encourage support for political candidates. Any group is allowed to conduct "grass roots" political work without losing their status (barring a few specific exceptions).


I'm 99.8% certain that you're wrong.


A conservative legal-advocacy group is enlisting ministers to use their pulpits to preach about election candidates this September, defying a tax law that bars churches from engaging in politics.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121029464937179517.html


This is because the church is NOT just a private institution as you stated, it's a TAX-EXEMPT institution, which means there are limitations on what it is allowed to do and still maintain their tax-free status. If they want to be able to endorse a candidate and pay their fair share of taxes like every other institution in the country, then they're welcome to do that. But as long as they are getting tax exemption due to their status as a group acting as a religious institution then that means they are not allowed to act as a politically active group.

[mithrilfox]

I'm 99.8% certain that you're wrong.


This is because the church is NOT just a private institution as you stated, it's a TAX-EXEMPT institution, which means there are limitations on what it is allowed to do and still maintain their tax-free status. If they want to be able to endorse a candidate and pay their fair share of taxes like every other institution in the country, then they're welcome to do that. But as long as they are getting tax exemption due to their status as a group acting as a religious institution then that means they are not allowed to act as a politically active group.

As an active participant and member of several Christian churches for over 8 years, I can say that political discussion and decision making is very prominent in many churches, and no church has completely avoided it that I have been a part of. I have never even heard the suggestion that it was illegal in the US, though one time someone asked if a church "should" have such discussions. It was quickly pointed out that it can, and whether it "should" is up to the church leaders.

Churches have always been active politically. Many politicians got their start by campaigning through church pulpits.

[Gelfin]

As an active participant and member of several Christian churches for over 8 years, I can say that political discussion and decision making is very prominent in many churches, and no church has completely avoided it that I have been a part of. I have never even heard the suggestion that it was illegal in the US, though one time someone asked if a church "should" have such discussions. It was quickly pointed out that it can, and whether it "should" is up to the church leaders.

Churches have always been active politically. Many politicians got their start by campaigning through church pulpits.

It is not illegal in a criminal sense, but it will result in revocation of tax-exempt status.

Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

Subsection (h) describes certain limited exceptions, but explicitly excludes churches and religious organizations from its own qualifications on this provision, so yes, if your U.S. pastor is campaigning in church, he risks revocation of tax-exempt status.

[ert3]

anyone know if the Bishop allowed this action as that would determine the theocratic legality of this matter.

[motulist]

As an active participant and member of several Christian churches for over 8 years, I can say that political discussion and decision making is very prominent in many churches, and no church has completely avoided it that I have been a part of. I have never even heard the suggestion that it was illegal in the US, though one time someone asked if a church "should" have such discussions. It was quickly pointed out that it can, and whether it "should" is up to the church leaders.

Churches have always been active politically. Many politicians got their start by campaigning through church pulpits.

Just because all the handful of churches that you've been to all think it's legal, that doesn't make it so. As long as that church's leadership are signing the document that says they are a religious group qualifying for tax exempt status, then there's no question about it, they are not allowed to endorse any particular political entity.

[solvs]

A church can talk about politics, individuals within the church can talk about it all they want, but no church organization itself can endorse a particular candidate or prop.

It's fair to say that that priest is going down.
He's a lawyer, not a little boy.

Wow, even I thought that was in bad taste.

[themadchemist]

You know, every time I see this thread title, I misread "communion" as "communism" at first. :p

[Sun Baked]

You know, every time I see this thread title, I misread "communion" as "communism" at first. :p

Fits with my favorite, "Anything you say will be misquoted and used against you."

[themadchemist]

Fits with my favorite, "Anything you say will be misquoted and used against you."

Ah yes...

And the funny thing is that when I misread it like that, my split second interpretation is the one that fits with "communion," not communism. That is, someone saying to an Obama supporter, "No, you can't have communism," instead of an Obama supporter saying to someone, "No, I'm not a communist."