Apple should be scared

[Stang68]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Apple could be in trouble? I mean, they just didn't do enough to the iPhone 3G to make it leap ahead of the competition for ANOTHER year. Blackberry has the Bold and Thunder (touchscreen) coming out in a few months time and they can do everything that the new iPhone can! This has me worried. And yes, I am a current BB owner but that's only until the iPhone comes to VZW.

Anyone else agree with me?

[Drumjim85]

Just wait until the app store comes....

[srvnvly]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Apple could be in trouble? I mean, they just didn't do enough to the iPhone 3G to make it leap ahead of the competition for ANOTHER year. Blackberry has the Bold and Thunder (touchscreen) coming out in a few months time and they can do everything that the new iPhone can! This has me worried. And yes, I am a current BB owner but that's only until the iPhone comes to VZW.

Anyone else agree with me?

Do you have info that the iPhone WILL come to VZW? I am a Verizon customer and would get an iPhone in a heartbeat if they truly accepted "any device, any application." Let me know; thanks!

[automatickyle]

Exactly, once this app store drops all these threads will become ghosts. Apple doesn't have a thing to worry about. All these stupid threads about camera and other things. This thing is the platform for an amazing experience once this app store drops.

[ayale99]

All Apple has to be worried about is people not wanting to pay $30 for unlimited data to AT&T. It's just dishonest of Steve to come out and say "half the price!" but actually it's costing you more in the long run.

The App store is the iPhone's saving grace. It will put other similar phones to shame.

[edesignuk]

They may not have done everything that every individual had hoped, but Apple (and it's investors) certainly don't need to be scared. This second generation will sell far far better than it's predecessor, if not in the US, certainly outside of it.

[WishIWasHere]

When all of the news first started coming in yesterday, I was a little worried too. But the fact is that the 'killer app', is the App Store itself. In 6 months, there will be hundreds of innovative applications to choose from, and with a foolproof browse and click shopping experience, I think Apple will do just fine...

[carlosbutler]

the app store will be the biggest thing that will hit the iPhone, infact any phone as no other phones are able to do it. blackberrys (at the moment) are awful, i really dont like them. my dad has got one, and i hate it. it makes simple tasks overcomplicated, even taking a picture an emailing it is a pain and it just doesnt feel at all nice to hold. the keys are also a pain to use once you are used to the touchscreen.

and you say that the bb will be able to do the same as the iphone, well in what way. big deal, touchscreen, and it will probably have a better camera as its impossible to make one worse than whats on the iPhone, but everything else the iphone just blows it away. the simplicity, the ease of use and the way that everything looks is just top notch. once the app store is released, and hopfully not too many apps will cost much, the iphone is a sure winner

(love the ad-hoc mode, even though other devices are able to do it...)

[a456]

Is the OP joking? Everyone expect people who want a 5 MP camera will be happy.

[BothBarsOn]

The physical phone itself is a transitory thing. There will always be a better one coming along "soon".

The platform is what's important and that is where Apple will smoke everybody else.

[Tallest Skil]

Do you have info that the iPhone WILL come to VZW? I am a Verizon customer and would get an iPhone in a heartbeat if they truly accepted "any device, any application." Let me know; thanks!

It can't until late 2012. It won't until late 2012.

[michaelsviews]

Do you have info that the iPhone WILL come to VZW? I am a Verizon customer and would get an iPhone in a heartbeat if they truly accepted "any device, any application." Let me know; thanks!

Never happen, 2 different technologies, GSM vs CDMA. Although Verizon is so much more stable and faster than AT&T's network

[Drumjim85]

It can't until late 2012. It won't until late 2012.

they never said a five year agreement, it was a multi year... So for all we know it could be opened up next summer...

And I beleive 3g will take away the CDMA/gsm complications..

[Stang68]

Yea, i agree with all of you about the App Store. I am going to love that with my touch! And I dont know why so many people think the camera on the iPhone sucks. I think it is pretty decent from what I have seen, then again, I dont own one so you guys know better.

As for VZW getting the phone, my friend (this is gonna sound like a stupid lie haha) who works with me at my internship works at the 5th Ave Apple store and says that "he heard" that the iPhone will be on VZW in a year. I guess it makes sense because Apple could always just buy out of the AT&T contract...especially after AT&T pulled that crap yesterday with the whole "we can sell it for whatever price we want" thing.

But dont count out Blackberry. They have come a long way and I think their touchscreen will do great things because they know they cant screw it up.
Heres a pic:http://crackberry.com/blackberry-thunder-pics-start-show

Anyways, just remeber, I am an iPhone lover (or hope to be one day) and I am just playing devils advocate haha.

[mark34]

Verizon...CDMA.. not going to happen

While everyone seems to want Verizon, I still don't understand why. Why would you want a phone that only works in the U.S.?

[chrisparr]

The physical phone itself is a transitory thing. There will always be a better one coming along "soon".

The platform is what's important and that is where Apple will smoke everybody else.

Don't forget Android will be out this year. From what I've seen that is every bit as good as the iPhone OS. I know they don't have something as integrated as iTunes/appstore to deliver apps, but it will have a BIG developer community, possibly bigger that the iPhone developer community.

Time will only tell, but lets be objective about things.

[Stang68]

And lets not forget that Apple is now doing Enterprise so Blackberry is going to be on the defensive. They are loading up the chamber with some pretty big caliber bullets. (Like that analogy?) I just thnk that Apple should have put some things in the iPhone 3G that they didnt. You all know what they are...

[NeXTCube]

Is the OP joking? Everyone expect people who want a 5 MP camera will be happy.

I've used the 5MP camera on the Nokia N95. It's nothing special. Very poor noise control, and the LED "flash" is a joke. The iPhone's 2MP camera takes better pictures than my old Canon PowerShot S100 (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=DownloadDetailTabAct&fcategoryid=322&modelid=8258#top).

[michaelsviews]

Verizon...CDMA.. not going to happen

While everyone seems to want Verizon, I still don't understand why. Why would you want a phone that only works in the U.S.?

Too answer your question, Here's the way I see it?,

The BB8830 World Edition is CDMA and GSM , if your going out of the country you notify them and your given a SIM card and your on your way . I do NOT know all the details but I am sure that if you looked it up on the verizons site you'd find more detailed information.

So with that being said, in reality, you could re-design the iPhone to be both CDMA & GSM. If Blackberry can do it , you know Stevey can do it.

[elbirth]

All Apple has to be worried about is people not wanting to pay $30 for unlimited data to AT&T. It's just dishonest of Steve to come out and say "half the price!" but actually it's costing you more in the long run.

The App store is the iPhone's saving grace. It will put other similar phones to shame.

I agree completely. I've always known that Apple was the type of company that only told half-truths when they made a change for the worse in one way or another, but this seems so much worse. Sure he's right when he says the iPhone is half the cost... but he conveniently left out the part of what the service plan will be like, and they've totally removed it from the Apple site, along with the ability to order at all. Steve knows he's sold his soul to the Devil and he's trying to let AT&T's press release take all of the blame. Maybe that's why he's looking so gaunt and frail? His soul is slowly being eaten away by AT&T.

[elbirth]

I've used the 5MP camera on the Nokia N95. It's nothing special. Very poor noise control, and the LED "flash" is a joke. The iPhone's 2MP camera takes better pictures than my old Canon PowerShot S100 (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=DownloadDetailTabAct&fcategoryid=322&modelid=8258#top).

comparing the camera on the iPhone (a product that's not even a year old) to a camera that's 8 years old is a very horrible idea

[sparkyms]

And yes, I am a current BB owner but that's only until the iPhone comes to VZW.

Anyone else agree with me?

Enjoy your wait :).

But as far as features, my iPhone one did everything I wanted it to, except GPS, and speedy downloads. iPhone 3g will do both of these, it will be the perfect mobile phone for me

[Stang68]

I don't think the wait will be that long. I'm saying one more year. But until then I have my iPod touch to hold me over!

[AliensAreFuzzy]

While everyone seems to want Verizon, I still don't understand why. Why would you want a phone that only works in the U.S.?

Well, many, many people rarely, if ever, travel out of the U.S. Therefore, a phone that only works in the U.S. is just fine for them. There are 80 million Verizon subscribers, or there will be in November when the Alltel customers get merged in. That's a large group to get the iPhone to. And since I just renewed my Alltel contract in March, I would really like to be able to get an iPhone.

[Agathon]

Apple has nothing to fear. RIM is the company that should be afraid. The iPhone is a mobile computing platform that happens to have a phone in it. The company that designed it has 30 years experience designing computers and operating systems, and over a decade's experience in designing mobile devices (remember the Newton), and five years' experience selling massive amounts of digital content over the internet. It has its own multimedia platform as well. RIM doesn't have most of that.

As mobile devices become more like computing platforms and less like Walkmans, it follows that mainstream computer companies are in a better position to design and make the things.

The funny thing is that the approach of one company making the software platform and another making the hardware doesn't seem to work very well for devices like these. Microsoft's mobile platform sucks (I know. I own one). Perhaps Google will change that. However, there is one computer company left that makes the whole widget, and that is Apple.

People enjoy making lists of what the iPhone lacks. It would be more interesting to make lists of what its competitors lack. An efficient and simple software distribution system is at the top of the list. None of them have anything that approaches iTunes. A secure UNIX OS proven on the desktop is another.

[BothBarsOn]

"The iPhone is a mobile computing platform that happens to have a phone in it."

Liking that! Can I steal it for future arguments? :)

[BongoBanger]

People enjoy making lists of what the iPhone lacks. It would be more interesting to make lists of what its competitors lack. An efficient and simple software distribution system is at the top of the list.

Which ties you into one vendor's approved software range. Symbian has a number of shops all offering a range of software which can be downloaded directly or installed from the Nokia PC Suite - most people use S60 or Nokia Software Market. Blackberry has the 'Built for Blackberry' site. I can't comment on WM.

So they all have easy to use distribution systems already.

None of them have anything that approaches iTunes.

Perhaps. Then again Nokia owners have more choice and NSM is child's play to use.

A secure UNIX OS proven on the desktop is another.

Well it would be if it was the same OSX. RIM and Symbian's software have been proven by years in their relevant markets though.

[scaredpoet]

Well it would be if it was the same OSX. RIM and Symbian's software have been proven by years in their relevant markets though.

Proven to be secure? No, sorry (http://www.realtime-websecurity.com/articles_and_analysis/2007/05/viver_trojan_target_symbian_sm.html).

[alFR]

=Symbian has a number of shops all offering a range of software which can be downloaded directly or installed from the Nokia PC Suite - most people use S60 or Nokia Software Market.

And, frankly, most of the available apps suck.

[BongoBanger]

Proven to be secure? No, sorry (http://www.realtime-websecurity.com/articles_and_analysis/2007/05/viver_trojan_target_symbian_sm.html).

Right. If you read the Register article from 2007 that refers to you would notice that you would have to install the applications on your 'phone. This is not dissimilar to the recent crack on Safari where the user had to be directed to upload software to get in. You'll also note that they say "Infections for mobile malware are rare and ordinary Symbian users have little to fear".

Symbian viruses are as rare as OSX viruses. Try again.

[BongoBanger]

And, frankly, most of the available apps suck.

You're going to explain which ones and why aren't you? Otherwise I'm just going to assume you've never used them and don't have a clue what you're talking about, k?

[Sun Baked]

"The iPhone is a mobile computing platform that happens to have a phone in it."

Liking that! Can I steal it for future arguments? :)

Probably start coming into play a bit more, still iPhone OS vs. Mac OS.

Probably will see OS X Desktop and OS X Mobile later, Apple Marketing still has to make that move if they want to unify the message in the future.

But people to like some of the feature improvements with .Mac to Me.com

[sfoalex]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Apple could be in trouble? I mean, they just didn't do enough to the iPhone 3G to make it leap ahead of the competition for ANOTHER year. Blackberry has the Bold and Thunder (touchscreen) coming out in a few months time and they can do everything that the new iPhone can! This has me worried. And yes, I am a current BB owner but that's only until the iPhone comes to VZW.

Anyone else agree with me?

I don't know if you have actually used a BlackBerry or not. I have owned them a few times, and used my 8800 and 8310 for about a year with BES/Exchange. Since I am independent I rented the Exchange / BlackBerry Enterprise Services from Mail2Web.

Here is a breakdown of the cost involved when I used one...

Exchange Server for 1 GB of mail space...

$14.95 mo.

BlackBerry Enterprise Services

$14.95 mo.

AT&T Blackberry BES Data Plan

$44.95 Mo.

450 Minutes talk

39.95 a month.

I also had other services like SMS, TeleNav, but let's not even add those. The email alone is $30 in total for push with integrated calendar and address book and much less space than dot mac. With dot mac I am getting 10 times that for less than $8 a month. And in July, I get 20 times the storage, and push just like BlackBerry for the same $8 a month. In addition the data plan is $15 less a month than BES.

What about software?

RexWireless ToDoMatrix, Ascendo DataVault, JiveTalk, and a few others are hands down the best applications for the BlackBerry. And they don't hold a candle to the software on the iPhone. RexWireless is a fantastic ToDo app with nothing to compare it to on the iPhone at this time. However, just looking at the March 6th event, and the yesterday's WWDC event I can tell you the depth of the software on the iPhone is years ahead of BlackBerry.

It's not just touch screen and a virtual keyboard. It's a platform architecture that separates the iPhone from the BlackBerry. All RIM is doing by adding TouchScreen to their Thunder is changing the method of input. The architecture of the operating system remains the same. Meaning you still have the concept of an Options key. You still have the same legacy technology driving the device. It's essentially a new skin on an older technology.

Does Apple have anything to fear? Of course there are always unforeseen technologies in development. But so far Windows Mobile 6.1, BlackBerry Thunder, Treo devices and Nokia devices have nothing that effectively competes with the iPhone. Google's Android is perhaps the best competition I have seen to date.

Now let me first explain a potential in the SmartPhone market. We may be seeing a large growth rate in SmartPhones. If this proves to be true, everyone could win, literally, and no losers. What I mean is simply this. Apple's iPhone may simply expand the market in which case iPhone, Android-based devices, Windows Mobile, and BlackBerry all gain in unit shipments in an expansion that takes marketshare from the one-billion standard hand-sets sold per year. In this case, everyone wins. BlackBerry experiences growth. Apple experiences growth. Windows Mobile experiences growth.

But what if the pie is not expanding. What if the SmartPhone market is as large as it is going to get?

In that case, I believe the iPhone will take marketshare away from RIM's BlackBerry, Microsoft's Windows Mobile, the Palm Treo, and Symbian based devices.

RIM supporters love to say Enterprise this and that. Well, I am an Enterprise class customer. I use my iPhone for 95% business and 5% personal. When I was a member of the BlackBerry forum I can tell you I was in the minority for using a database, Push ToDo, and Push Travel software on my device. You know what most folks in that forum use? A call app which blocks certain calls from causing the phone to ring. Most used an IM client. Most used a spell-checker. Most used a email, and many, not most, used an HTML parse engine to see HTML mail as RIM does not provide this natively. Many, not most used a poor music app called FlipSide, and boasted at how great it is. It's seriously a joke compared to the iPod app in the iPhone. In fact the way you handle all entertainment on the BlackBerry is a joke compared to the iPhone eco system of management. Most of those folks in the forums are fanboys the same as most of us could be called a fanboy. We are here talking about the platform after all. We go to forums and read news about the platform, don't we? So to some extent, yes, we, you and me, could be called fans.

Personally, I think many, dare I say most, of those RIM users are blind to what is really possible with the iPhone. They'd rather hang on to outdated ideals than face up to reality. I, just like they, said I wanted a physical keyboard. And yet here I am no longer caring for one. I said, as they do, that email on the BlackBerry is like no other. Well, that's true. No one else has such lame email as RIM. They have Push. They have Security. But the iPhone is releasing Push as well. And it's not tied to a NOC.

They love to say big business won't be interested in iPhone. I hear this one a lot. Yet 35% of the fortune 500 is already in trials for the iPhone before the 2.0 release even hit. Now that speaks volumes in my opinion. Before the 2.0 release 35% of all fortune 500 companies are already considering it and dropping their existing smartphone. Why might that be? Look at the March 6th event. Look at the SalesForce.com demo. I was blown away by that. That software is so far and away better than anything RIM has ever seen in its existence and they did what we saw in 2 weeks. How can that not reveal the very definition of new generation versus old?

Look how quickly developers can get a seemingly desktop quality experience on the iPhone versus a clunky mobile subset of an application on devices such as the BlackBerry.

Good software is a business enabler. And I can tell big business agrees with me on this. They don't care about RIM. They don't care about Apple. They care about the tool. The better tool means they can better engage their clients. It's the software. It's the opportunity to have the tools you need when you need them. Mark my words, BlackBerry cannot compete with Apple. And their coveted enterprise markets are about to be pulled away from them. Not because of fanboy-ism. Not because it's cool. It's because the software is so much better. Applications like SalesForce.com are so easily better for sales people in the field that it will become the standard. It's going to be like comparing a full class word processor to a note pad. RIM has simplistic software. Software that is a subset and second-class. The iPhone has software far closer to desktop quality and this sets the bar out of reach of RIM.

Adding touch screens and a virtual keyboard neglects the very core of what I am writing about. Does adding a touch-screen change the software and platform opportunity for RIM and its customers? No of course not. It merely changes the method of input. It's like saying a new keyboard and mouse changes the foundation of the computer. It doesn't do any such thing. The keyboard is merely the interface to the platform, not platform itself. Apple's wonderful touch-screen is not the iPhone's strength. It's merely part of the interface. The iPhone is so much better because the architecture is so much better. The Kernel, the optimized OSX operating system creates a mobile platform that is far and away better than RIM's simple Mobile OS. The touch screen is merely part of that system. For RIM to think that adding a touch-screen to their existing platform somehow brings them on par is not only ridiculous, it's almost offensive. It's like painting a clunker of a car and expecting me to believe it will somehow run like new again. Paint and the mechanics of the car have absolutely nothing to do with each other. And the fact that RIM appears to think so little of their customers is downright offensive to me. And it should be to you as well.

RIMs must think we're all stupid or something. Of course they understand what truly separates their legacy device from a next generation device. And yet they show you some picture and attempt to infer that they are releasing something on par with the iPhone, when they are doing nothing of the kind. They didn't release the car mechanics to do an overhaul on their aging car. They sent out the painters to give it a new coat of paint with a gloss finish, and they mean to tell you that's all you want or need. Sorry, but it's not even close to reality.

Ever wonder why good companies lose their markets right out from under themselves? It's because a market opportunity came and went. I write went, because what often happens is the current leader falsely believes they know their own market. If that were true, RIM would have better hardware that moved itself forward and closer to desktop quality. Instead, RIM has performed exactly like Palm. They are not far from what they started with. The current RIM architecture is all RIM has to offer. The mechanics are long since gone. And what is left is marketing and paint. Lot's of paint. Sorry sir, the food is awful, try some salt. No thank you, I'd rather something else to eat entirely. RIM's response; the food is fine, just needs a little more spice. Well, it's not at all true.

I actually enjoy watching this sort of thing happen. Companies that are so well thought of exposed for what they are. One-trick ponies. RIM, the one-trick pony will do nothing but bring paint to an engineering fight. And they will leave humiliated and overwhelmed. And I'll chuckle years from now as I recount how I called this the same as I called the downfall of Circuit City, and the slow, but coming downfall of Sun Micro. Give customers what they demand, or watch as someone else does this and takes your market away from you.

Alex Alexzander

[Stang68]

@ alex:

I agree with almost everything you said. I fully understand the magnitude of the App store because I have a touch. I am sooo excited for all of the potential apps. But you cannot say that Blackberry will keep the same UI for their Thunder. They are smart guys over there and know that the interface is the most important thing on a touchscreen device. LG screwed that up. The iPhone UI is by far the best and simplest interface on a phone. Blackberry will probably be able to make something semi-close to that simplicity...maybe. No one knows yet, though. So don't count out RIM because they are in trouble and have to throw some punches.
As for the pricing points you brought up, it doesn't really apply to me because I am in a family plan, so the costs are different. You have a valid point there.
I also agree with you on the point that the iPhone will continue to evolve bc of the App store. BB doesn't have anything like this yet. But to say that BB's are bad devices is wrong. I think my Curve is a great device...even though I would like an iPhone. Next year, June '09 is when the contract is up because my friend works at the 5th ave store and he claims they get memos about this stuff.
It will be an interesting holiday season this year. Its going to be Apple vs RIM!

[Plutonius]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Apple could be in trouble? I mean, they just didn't do enough to the iPhone 3G to make it leap ahead of the competition for ANOTHER year. Blackberry has the Bold and Thunder (touchscreen) coming out in a few months time and they can do everything that the new iPhone can! This has me worried. And yes, I am a current BB owner but that's only until the iPhone comes to VZW.

Anyone else agree with me?

Who cares as long as you don't work for Apple or own Apple stock. If Apple make a product that people want, they do well. Otherwise, they do poorly.

[BothBarsOn]

Any chance you could summarise all of that in, say, a three-panel cartoon? :)

[Stang68]

Any chance you could summarise all of that in, say, a three-panel cartoon? :)

Haha hey, I read the whole thing, you should too!

[sfoalex]

Honestly, I don't see RIM doing anything else besides adopting a touch screen. I know this because they are using the same 4 button principle in the Thunder product. You are of course correct in that I don't "know" this, but I'd be willing to make a cash bet I'm correct.

I do count out RIM. I am actually posting the watered down version of how I feel. I'll sum up my true view on this. RIM is dead if the market is closed and finite in size for the smart phone. If it is expanding then they have hope.

Best,

Alex Alexzander

[marksman]

I will be scared when someone comes up with a usable interface besides Apple.

Lots of phones have had the abilities of the iPhone, but were virtually impossible to use because of the interface.

This still has not changed that much.

[Stang68]

I agree with you when you say that RIM will die if they don't get on something quickly. The App store will be the death of RIM. I think that it is premature to call RIM dead, though. Apple didn't deal enough of a "death blow" yesterday. The App store will eventually contribute to the end of RIM if they don't act soon.

[PowerFullMac]

If you look at the FCC filing for the iPhone, Apple asked the FCC to hold back details of the iPhone 3G until its release. There is something else up Steve's sleeve.

EDIT: Linkage (https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=952922&native_or_pdf=pdf)

[chrisparr]

I've used the 5MP camera on the Nokia N95. It's nothing special. Very poor noise control, and the LED "flash" is a joke. The iPhone's 2MP camera takes better pictures than my old Canon PowerShot S100 (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=DownloadDetailTabAct&fcategoryid=322&modelid=8258#top).

I disagree. I went to disneyland with the kids and our regular camera gave up the ghost before I could take one picture. N95 to the rescue.

I admit it does take a second or two to actually take the picture, but the quality or the pictures was great. It saved my ass as the kids love the photos.

[PowerFullMac]

Proven to be secure? No, sorry (http://www.realtime-websecurity.com/articles_and_analysis/2007/05/viver_trojan_target_symbian_sm.html).

Yup, I have seen pages and pages of Symbian virus listings, but TBH anyone who installs a app from a random Bluetooth device deserves whats coming to them ;)

[CrazEtooN]

I don't know if you have actually used a BlackBerry or not. I have owned them a few times, and used my 8800 and 8310 for about a year with BES/Exchange. Since I am independent I rented the Exchange / BlackBerry Enterprise Services from Mail2Web.

Here is a breakdown of the cost involved when I used one...

Exchange Server for 1 GB of mail space...

$14.95 mo.

BlackBerry Enterprise Services

$14.95 mo.

AT&T Blackberry BES Data Plan

$44.95 Mo.

450 Minutes talk

39.95 a month.

I also had other services like SMS, TeleNav, but let's not even add those. The email alone is $30 in total for push with integrated calendar and address book and much less space than dot mac. With dot mac I am getting 10 times that for less than $8 a month. And in July, I get 20 times the storage, and push just like BlackBerry for the same $8 a month. In addition the data plan is $15 less a month than BES.

What about software?

RexWireless ToDoMatrix, Ascendo DataVault, JiveTalk, and a few others are hands down the best applications for the BlackBerry. And they don't hold a candle to the software on the iPhone. RexWireless is a fantastic ToDo app with nothing to compare it to on the iPhone at this time. However, just looking at the March 6th event, and the yesterday's WWDC event I can tell you the depth of the software on the iPhone is years ahead of BlackBerry.

It's not just touch screen and a virtual keyboard. It's a platform architecture that separates the iPhone from the BlackBerry. All RIM is doing by adding TouchScreen to their Thunder is changing the method of input. The architecture of the operating system remains the same. Meaning you still have the concept of an Options key. You still have the same legacy technology driving the device. It's essentially a new skin on an older technology.

Does Apple have anything to fear? Of course there are always unforeseen technologies in development. But so far Windows Mobile 6.1, BlackBerry Thunder, Treo devices and Nokia devices have nothing that effectively competes with the iPhone. Google's Android is perhaps the best competition I have seen to date.

Now let me first explain a potential in the SmartPhone market. We may be seeing a large growth rate in SmartPhones. If this proves to be true, everyone could win, literally, and no losers. What I mean is simply this. Apple's iPhone may simply expand the market in which case iPhone, Android-based devices, Windows Mobile, and BlackBerry all gain in unit shipments in an expansion that takes marketshare from the one-billion standard hand-sets sold per year. In this case, everyone wins. BlackBerry experiences growth. Apple experiences growth. Windows Mobile experiences growth.

But what if the pie is not expanding. What if the SmartPhone market is as large as it is going to get?

In that case, I believe the iPhone will take marketshare away from RIM's BlackBerry, Microsoft's Windows Mobile, the Palm Treo, and Symbian based devices.

RIM supporters love to say Enterprise this and that. Well, I am an Enterprise class customer. I use my iPhone for 95% business and 5% personal. When I was a member of the BlackBerry forum I can tell you I was in the minority for using a database, Push ToDo, and Push Travel software on my device. You know what most folks in that forum use? A call app which blocks certain calls from causing the phone to ring. Most used an IM client. Most used a spell-checker. Most used a email, and many, not most, used an HTML parse engine to see HTML mail as RIM does not provide this natively. Many, not most used a poor music app called FlipSide, and boasted at how great it is. It's seriously a joke compared to the iPod app in the iPhone. In fact the way you handle all entertainment on the BlackBerry is a joke compared to the iPhone eco system of management. Most of those folks in the forums are fanboys the same as most of us could be called a fanboy. We are here talking about the platform after all. We go to forums and read news about the platform, don't we? So to some extent, yes, we, you and me, could be called fans.

Personally, I think many, dare I say most, of those RIM users are blind to what is really possible with the iPhone. They'd rather hang on to outdated ideals than face up to reality. I, just like they, said I wanted a physical keyboard. And yet here I am no longer caring for one. I said, as they do, that email on the BlackBerry is like no other. Well, that's true. No one else has such lame email as RIM. They have Push. They have Security. But the iPhone is releasing Push as well. And it's not tied to a NOC.

They love to say big business won't be interested in iPhone. I hear this one a lot. Yet 35% of the fortune 500 is already in trials for the iPhone before the 2.0 release even hit. Now that speaks volumes in my opinion. Before the 2.0 release 35% of all fortune 500 companies are already considering it and dropping their existing smartphone. Why might that be? Look at the March 6th event. Look at the SalesForce.com demo. I was blown away by that. That software is so far and away better than anything RIM has ever seen in its existence and they did what we saw in 2 weeks. How can that not reveal the very definition of new generation versus old?

Look how quickly developers can get a seemingly desktop quality experience on the iPhone versus a clunky mobile subset of an application on devices such as the BlackBerry.

Good software is a business enabler. And I can tell big business agrees with me on this. They don't care about RIM. They don't care about Apple. They care about the tool. The better tool means they can better engage their clients. It's the software. It's the opportunity to have the tools you need when you need them. Mark my words, BlackBerry cannot compete with Apple. And their coveted enterprise markets are about to be pulled away from them. Not because of fanboy-ism. Not because it's cool. It's because the software is so much better. Applications like SalesForce.com are so easily better for sales people in the field that it will become the standard. It's going to be like comparing a full class word processor to a note pad. RIM has simplistic software. Software that is a subset and second-class. The iPhone has software far closer to desktop quality and this sets the bar out of reach of RIM.

Adding touch screens and a virtual keyboard neglects the very core of what I am writing about. Does adding a touch-screen change the software and platform opportunity for RIM and its customers? No of course not. It merely changes the method of input. It's like saying a new keyboard and mouse changes the foundation of the computer. It doesn't do any such thing. The keyboard is merely the interface to the platform, not platform itself. Apple's wonderful touch-screen is not the iPhone's strength. It's merely part of the interface. The iPhone is so much better because the architecture is so much better. The Kernel, the optimized OSX operating system creates a mobile platform that is far and away better than RIM's simple Mobile OS. The touch screen is merely part of that system. For RIM to think that adding a touch-screen to their existing platform somehow brings them on par is not only ridiculous, it's almost offensive. It's like painting a clunker of a car and expecting me to believe it will somehow run like new again. Paint and the mechanics of the car have absolutely nothing to do with each other. And the fact that RIM appears to think so little of their customers is downright offensive to me. And it should be to you as well.

RIMs must think we're all stupid or something. Of course they understand what truly separates their legacy device from a next generation device. And yet they show you some picture and attempt to infer that they are releasing something on par with the iPhone, when they are doing nothing of the kind. They didn't release the car mechanics to do an overhaul on their aging car. They sent out the painters to give it a new coat of paint with a gloss finish, and they mean to tell you that's all you want or need. Sorry, but it's not even close to reality.

Ever wonder why good companies lose their markets right out from under themselves? It's because a market opportunity came and went. I write went, because what often happens is the current leader falsely believes they know their own market. If that were true, RIM would have better hardware that moved itself forward and closer to desktop quality. Instead, RIM has performed exactly like Palm. They are not far from what they started with. The current RIM architecture is all RIM has to offer. The mechanics are long since gone. And what is left is marketing and paint. Lot's of paint. Sorry sir, the food is awful, try some salt. No thank you, I'd rather something else to eat entirely. RIM's response; the food is fine, just needs a little more spice. Well, it's not at all true.

I actually enjoy watching this sort of thing happen. Companies that are so well thought of exposed for what they are. One-trick ponies. RIM, the one-trick pony will do nothing but bring paint to an engineering fight. And they will leave humiliated and overwhelmed. And I'll chuckle years from now as I recount how I called this the same as I called the downfall of Circuit City, and the slow, but coming downfall of Sun Micro. Give customers what they demand, or watch as someone else does this and takes your market away from you.

Alex Alexzander

THANK YOU!!

I am a current BlackBerry user that frequents certain BlackBerry forums. EVERYDAY I see the blind (BIS users mostly... go figure...) users slam the iPhone for everything under the sun when they don't have a clue to the reality of the situation. Everyday I fight them and try to make them understand the iPhone and the potential it presents. Everyday I am told that nothing will beat BlackBerry in the enterprise and blah, blah, blah....

I have always said to use the device you want, but don't needlessly hate on another simply because you lack the understanding to see what it is capable of. They concentrate on the small things, the no MMS, the no video, the no keyboard; and they completely ignore the bigger picture. It is a sad state of affairs over there, it really is.

I am just so happy to see someone else that actually gets it. You sir, have made my day!

[Stang68]

If you look at the FCC filing for the iPhone, Apple asked the FCC to hold back details of the iPhone 3G until its release. There is something else up Steve's sleeve.

EDIT: Linkage (https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=952922&native_or_pdf=pdf)

Hmmm, that's interesting. You might have something there! Ol' Stevey may have "one more thing" since he didn't yesterday!

[PowerFullMac]

Hmmm, that's interesting. You might have something there! Ol' Stevey may have "one more thing" since he didn't yesterday!

I wonder why they want to hide radio diagrams and antenna stuff? Maybe there is DVB-H (thats what its called, right?) for Mobile TV!

Also, thy are hiding internal and external photos, front facing camera for video conferencing me thinks?

[iPhil]

Do you have info that the iPhone WILL come to VZW? I am a Verizon customer and would get an iPhone in a heartbeat if they truly accepted "any device, any application." Let me know; thanks!


they never said a five year agreement, it was a multi year... So for all we know it could be opened up next summer...

And I beleive 3g will take away the CDMA/gsm complications..



It can't until late 2012. It won't until late 2012.




Here's a snip of info on Apple/ATT agreement:


The latest estimates have "unlocked" iPhones costing Apple over $1 billion in lost revenue the next 3 years. Apple's (AAPL) AT&T (T) tie-up in the US is for another 4 years, meaning the company will continue to not realize monthly revenue, estimated at $120 annually per subscriber from phones "unlocked" for use on other carriers.





Full article is here (http://seekingalpha.com/article/65084-apple-s-at-t-deal-is-costly)....

[Stang68]

Here's a snip of info on Apple/ATT agreement:


The latest estimates have "unlocked" iPhones costing Apple over $1 billion in lost revenue the next 3 years. Apple's (AAPL) AT&T (T) tie-up in the US is for another 4 years, meaning the company will continue to not realize monthly revenue, estimated at $120 annually per subscriber from phones "unlocked" for use on other carriers.





Full article is here (http://seekingalpha.com/article/65084-apple-s-at-t-deal-is-costly)....

That would hold water if there wasn't a statement made yesterday by AT&T about the revenues. I'd give you a link but I can't bc I'm posting from my Curve. Just Google "iPhone and AT&T" and click on "news".

[t0mat0]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Apple could be in trouble? I mean, they just didn't do enough to the iPhone 3G to make it leap ahead of the competition for ANOTHER year. Blackberry has the Bold and Thunder (touchscreen) coming out in a few months time and they can do everything that the new iPhone can! This has me worried. And yes, I am a current BB owner but that's only until the iPhone comes to VZW.

Anyone else agree with me?

It's the other way around. They're bringing Exchange 07 to iPhone. THey're baking it into the OS by WWDC 09. They're giving you Enterprise level Push features. whilst the 3G iPhone might not have flash, or might not have front facing cam - it's got a LOT going for it.

GPS makers are nervous, it's showing Enterprise it can do everything bar have a physical keyboard that RIM does and then some, it's giving .mac users enterprise level functions. It's got sync in the bag to mac AND PC outflanking Windows' Mesh. Come App Store etc, we'll see :D

[kdarling]

Verizon...CDMA.. not going to happen

People are talking more about LTE, not CDMA.

While everyone seems to want Verizon, I still don't understand why. Why would you want a phone that only works in the U.S.?

Why would you want a GSM phone that only works with a U.S. SIM?

;)

[ProwlingTiger]

Blackberrys dont have the Apple logo on the back. The iPhone is automatically the winner :D

Seriously though, as others have said, come July we'll see a flood of applications that will bring the iPhone up. Plus, Apple already included a scientific calculator in the 2.0 firmware :P

[iPhil]

Here's a snip of info on Apple/ATT agreement:


The latest estimates have "unlocked" iPhones costing Apple over $1 billion in lost revenue the next 3 years. Apple's (AAPL) AT&T (T) tie-up in the US is for another 4 years, meaning the company will continue to not realize monthly revenue, estimated at $120 annually per subscriber from phones "unlocked" for use on other carriers.





Full article is here (http://seekingalpha.com/article/65084-apple-s-at-t-deal-is-costly)....



That would hold water if there wasn't a statement made yesterday by AT&T about the revenues. I'd give you a link but I can't bc I'm posting from my Curve. Just Google "iPhone and AT&T" and click on "news".






And my previous post still applies since the lost in "revenues" for ATT doesn't mean Verizon or any other cell carrier will get the iPhone before 2012... Only after Apple/ATT deal is done then another cell carriers in US will be able to carry the iPhone on their networks...




one of the few "iPhone and AT&T" stories... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7574403)

^^
That story doesn't say that Verizon or anyone else besides ATT is getting iPhones for their carrier until 2012..... :p

[Michael CM1]

All Apple has to be worried about is people not wanting to pay $30 for unlimited data to AT&T. It's just dishonest of Steve to come out and say "half the price!" but actually it's costing you more in the long run.

The App store is the iPhone's saving grace. It will put other similar phones to shame.

That's what is making me thankful I have an iPhone now. $20 more for data was kind of stretching it for me. Tacking on another $10, making it about $75/month (after all the fees they tack on) EVERY MONTH. That's not cheaper.

I have this feeling that Apple will start working toward multiple carriers. This whole "it's cheaper but it really isn't" doesn't feel like Apple. It feels like paying $15 for a movie on the iTunes store. If they open it up to the U.S. competitors, maybe someone will have a cheaper plan.

[zap2]

And I beleive 3g will take away the CDMA/gsm complications..


I think thats 4G(they are both moving to LTE which is an evolution pattern of GSM)....Verizon uses EVDO for 3G, which is CMDA 3G, while AT&T uses HSPDA/UMTS which is GSM based for 3G

[BongoBanger]

It's the other way around. They're bringing Exchange 07 to iPhone. THey're baking it into the OS by WWDC 09. They're giving you Enterprise level Push features. whilst the 3G iPhone might not have flash, or might not have front facing cam - it's got a LOT going for it.

You do realise that most Nokia E and N Series phones have had MS Exchange since about 2005, don't you? It's not exactly a new feature on non-MS smartphones.

GPS makers are nervous

And have been for some time since a lot of phones have had GPS for over two years.

it's showing Enterprise it can do everything bar have a physical keyboard that RIM does and then some

Except copy and paste, MMS, blutooth transfer, SDHC hot swap, tethering, etc.

it's giving .mac users enterprise level functions.

Which is nice if you can't already ge these on Google for free. Which you can.

It's got sync in the bag to mac AND PC outflanking Windows' Mesh. Come App Store etc, we'll see :D

Ah yes, the App store. That would be the new App store as opposed to the established App stores all the other main manufacturers have?

There's a lot of hype about the iPhone for business and I'm sure it'll get some but I think people need to realise that this is an established market. It's not a case of Apple breezing in because a lot of phones can already do what it does and more and there exist countless apps for these phones already.

[NAG]

You can also make a toaster into a phone and give it lots of apps. Doesn't mean it is easy to use.

[ellsworth]

Just wait until the app store comes....

nuff said

[kdarling]

I wonder why they want to hide radio diagrams and antenna stuff?

Because they always do. Even for WiFi routers.

I take it this is the first Apple FCC filing you've ever seen.

[Siron]

it's showing Enterprise it can do everything bar have a physical keyboard that RIM does

My wife has a Blackberry and every time I use it I wonder at how people use that small, crappy, horrible (and I hate to call it a )"keyboard". I cringe at how it's so terrible to use. My wife asked me to forward an email to my home email account. I finally found how to click on Forward but could I find a way to navigate to the address book - no way. I finally ended up entering my name into the Too field and it finally "found" my email address.
HORRIBLE INTERFACE RIM need to be afraid, really afraid.
Alan

[StingerT125]

Yeah, I agree with the iPhone platform/interface being what really distinguishes it. Add to that the ease of application development with the release of the SDK and I think this thing can be killer. I use a Blackberry from work, admittedly an older model, but I don't like the interface at all.

[Stang68]

That story doesn't say that Verizon or anyone else besides ATT is getting iPhones for their carrier until 2012..... :p

The deal with AT&T is NOT for 5 years. If you work at an Apple Store, you get a memo saying that the deal is only for two years. I swear I am not making this up...but you obv wont believe me. The contract IS going to be up in June of 2009. Mark my words. I have no evidence other than a few people I know who work at some Apple stores. Go in and ask a genius in a store and MAYBE they will tell you.

Im not lying...I swear! :o

[t0mat0]

You do realise that most Nokia E and N Series phones have had MS Exchange since about 2005, don't you? It's not exactly a new feature on non-MS smartphones.
And have been for some time since a lot of phones have had GPS for over two years.
Except copy and paste, MMS, blutooth transfer, SDHC hot swap, tethering, etc.
Which is nice if you can't already ge these on Google for free. Which you can.
Ah yes, the App store. That would be the new App store as opposed to the established App stores all the other main manufacturers have?
There's a lot of hype about the iPhone for business and I'm sure it'll get some but I think people need to realise that this is an established market. It's not a case of Apple breezing in because a lot of phones can already do what it does and more and there exist countless apps for these phones already.

BongoBanger - all good points :)

Nokia haven't exactly bragged about it to the general public via a keynote though have they? I'd be curious to actually see the actual usage of MS Exchange on Nokia E & N Series. Something Nokia must have somewhere as a bunch of stats somewhere. I don't doubt Apple wasn't first. Maybe go so far as implement MS Exchange so it's easily usable?

C&P is missing, aye - software come July 11?
MMS - Apple could, but might not. An app could. July 11th potential
BT - Yeah - Bearing in mind the caveat *Subject to change - we darn hope those specs are subject to change
SDHC hot swap/
Tethering? It's totally untethered. It's a proto-desktop on 3.5 inches. It'd be cool, yes, but then wouldn't Apple want you on a laptop with 3G/WiMax etc when they update? ;)
App Store - Show me a decent photo of the major manufacturer, as it looks on their best selling model phone. Then compare with the App Store for iPhone, and then we'll have a comparison. How many N Series users haven't really done more than 1-2 game buys? Apple's App store has good chances of being "impulse-buy friendly".

What can you get on Google? - Didn't quite understand
The RIM market has been stagnant - what was it's competition? And where did RIM come from? It was a spotty adolescent of an Enterprise company once too!
We'll see penetration come MWSF to give it 6 or so months. As for breezing in - the keynote showed 35% penetration into the Fortune 500, to get them signed up to the BETA program. Not even the actual deal - this was the bug full version. You can't really diss all those quotes, can you? :D
To see it another way, there might be quantity, but Apple is doing quality pretty darn well looking at the preview we've had. Venerable players in the areas that Apple is moving into, but that don't mean too much when it boils down to it - it's the whole experience.

[Stang68]

Oh man...I just found this on a Blackberry forums called "Crackberry.com". They are having a similar conversation like us. Here is what he had to say:

"I watch the keynotes and wwdc's with giddy, why? Apple does bring out cool s***, but I keep seeing Apple FAIL. They bring out ok stuff, leaving the good features for later on, to get more money. Thus why in my opinion, Apple will stay under Microsoft. I was a huge Apple fan, now, I don't care. The Macs are cool, but OS X is the only killer app/thing other than the ipod they have. The iphone is just an ipod with phone features. People act like iphone 2.0 will kill RIM and bb's. HAH! The iPhone is NOT a smart phone, I don't care what everybody says. It lack of freedom, general features that other smart phones have, leave it a pretty Apple gadget that wants to be a Blackberry. I want me a Bold or Thunder, don't know which yet."

Oh no he didnt! Now that is going overboard! And remember...dont shoot the messenger!

[NAG]

Well yes, the iPhone is just an iPod touch with GPS and 3g/phone features. Kind of odd that this makes it bad. Maybe they don't know what features the iPod touch has. *shrugs*

[mojohanna]

All Apple has to be worried about is people not wanting to pay $30 for unlimited data to AT&T. It's just dishonest of Steve to come out and say "half the price!" but actually it's costing you more in the long run.

The App store is the iPhone's saving grace. It will put other similar phones to shame.

When are you people going to get it through your thick freakin heads that Apple and Steve Jobs have nothing to do with setting at&t's pricing? Apple has done their part in lowering the acquisition cost of the phone. What you do with it and what plan you decide to put it on is up to you.
Additionally, as others have said, you are getting faster service as well as apps and other features that will use more bandwidth than the typical user. You end up paying more.

This is not a conspiracy as many of you would make it out to be. Petitions are not going to do crap. Writing letters to Apple or Steve Jobs is not going to do crap. What more do you want??

If you think you absolutely need an iphone that badly and you can't afford the ext $10-$15 a month, maybe you need to rethink your priorities and not be so worried about your image. I can't imagine that an average user of a phone would need all of the features of the iphone or any other "smart phone". Everyone just sees what they assume to be powerful business people using smart phones and they think they need one to. This is excellent marketing by the phone companies and the very problem with american consumerism.

[buccsmf1]

Just wait until the app store comes....

agreed. i think its still way to early to decided on this new iphone until the app store comes out. the iphone has unprecedented software support and I'm anxious to see what it can do when all these developers release their apps.

[Stang68]

agreed. i think its still way to early to decided on this new iphone until the app store comes out. the iphone has unprecedented software support and I'm anxious to see what it can do when all these developers release their apps.

Yea, I agree with this.

[joejoejoe]

People need to stop saying that complaining about the camera is invalid.

It is a TOTALLY VALID complaint. Apple has had a full YEAR to improve the iPhone and put it ahead of competition. We're talking technology here, in this market, hardware is constantly improving and getting cheaper. Apple couldn't even update the camera to be better quality? I imagine it would cost them close to nothing and take up the same if not LESS space than the current camera they are using.

I understand keeping memory where it is. Knowing Apple they will probably ride out the iPhone 3G through Christmas and then update the memory. But come on, the camera was an easy fix. Especially with all these apps that are going to be using the camera... come on Apple.

And what about the Phone's new profile? It looks fatter than the current iPhone with the 'thinner edges'. Apple's design team always, always makes second gen products look better than the first... looks like they went backwards this time.

[t0mat0]

My wife has a Blackberry and every time I use it I wonder at how people use that small, crappy, horrible (and I hate to call it a )"keyboard". I cringe at how it's so terrible to use. My wife asked me to forward an email to my home email account. I finally found how to click on Forward but could I find a way to navigate to the address book - no way. I finally ended up entering my name into the Too field and it finally "found" my email address.
HORRIBLE INTERFACE RIM need to be afraid, really afraid.
Alan

I wonder why RIM got a touchscreen model rushed out into production... :rolleyes:
Screen size anyone? Even at the thumbnail size on the MR forum I can ID the calendar, phone, ipod and text buttons. RIM's look dark as hell. The benefits of screen space. 1 drawback, many advantages.

[BklynKid]

Well, many, many people rarely, if ever, travel out of the U.S.

Fail.

[NT1440]

what you forget to mention is that none of those phones that are "threats" to the iphone have the best UI ever implemented in a phone.

ive used several of the released "iphone killers" and big suprise, its either annoying menu navigations, or the crappiest thing to happen to phones ever, windows mobile

[CrazEtooN]

Oh man...I just found this on a Blackberry forums called "Crackberry.com". They are having a similar conversation like us. Here is what he had to say:

"I watch the keynotes and wwdc's with giddy, why? Apple does bring out cool s***, but I keep seeing Apple FAIL. They bring out ok stuff, leaving the good features for later on, to get more money. Thus why in my opinion, Apple will stay under Microsoft. I was a huge Apple fan, now, I don't care. The Macs are cool, but OS X is the only killer app/thing other than the ipod they have. The iphone is just an ipod with phone features. People act like iphone 2.0 will kill RIM and bb's. HAH! The iPhone is NOT a smart phone, I don't care what everybody says. It lack of freedom, general features that other smart phones have, leave it a pretty Apple gadget that wants to be a Blackberry. I want me a Bold or Thunder, don't know which yet."

Oh no he didnt! Now that is going overboard! And remember...dont shoot the messenger!

I currently have a BlackBerry and I happen to frequent CrackBerry.com. I called the guy out on pretty much every one of his "points" in the thread you happened to come across. He came back and instead of presenting a valid debate, decided to personally insult me...

Over the past 3 weeks, I have lost a lot of respect for the community at CrackBerry. They used to be pretty cool, but since the 3G iPhone I-Day got closer, they have all started to get more aggressive in their iPhone hate. Now that is actually out, many people are talking about switching, and they are being bombarded with ding dongs like the one you quoted passing misleading information onto them.

It really has become a pretty comical place.

[NT1440]

People need to stop saying that complaining about the camera is invalid.

It is a TOTALLY VALID complaint. Apple has had a full YEAR to improve the iPhone and put it ahead of competition. We're talking technology here, in this market, hardware is constantly improving and getting cheaper. Apple couldn't even update the camera to be better quality? I imagine it would cost them close to nothing and take up the same if not LESS space than the current camera they are using.

I understand keeping memory where it is. Knowing Apple they will probably ride out the iPhone 3G through Christmas and then update the memory. But come on, the camera was an easy fix. Especially with all these apps that are going to be using the camera... come on Apple.

And what about the Phone's new profile? It looks fatter than the current iPhone with the 'thinner edges'. Apple's design team always, always makes second gen products look better than the first... looks like they went backwards this time.
valid to complain, yes

valid to say apple was supposed to or HAVE to include these things? hell no, they can put whatever they want into their product.

and your complaining about a few mm when you have 5+ hours of talk time?

have you held the phone in you hands? no. Dont complain about the shape or size until u do. For all you know it feels better in the hand than the first generation.

[t0mat0]

I currently have a BlackBerry and I happen to frequent CrackBerry.com. I called the guy out on pretty much every one of his "points" in the thread you happened to come across. He came back and instead of presenting a valid debate, decided to personally insult me...

Over the past 3 weeks, I have lost a lot of respect for the community at CrackBerry. They used to be pretty cool, but since the 3G iPhone I-Day got closer, they have all started to get more aggressive in their iPhone hate. Now that is actually out, many people are talking about switching, and they are being bombarded with ding dongs like the one you quoted passing misleading information onto them.

It really has become a pretty comical place.

Link please! It'd be interesting to see the other side, as it gives a different perspective.

As an aside - is there a windowsrumors.com type place - a windows version of macrumors? It'd be interesting what's being said from all sides of the tech community.

[jciapara]

All Apple has to be worried about is people not wanting to pay $30 for unlimited data to AT&T. It's just dishonest of Steve to come out and say "half the price!" but actually it's costing you more in the long run.

The App store is the iPhone's saving grace. It will put other similar phones to shame.

Have you check the data plans for other smarthphones? Same as iPhone, the last iPhone was actually cheaper than the regular smartphones (3G) so you're paying more, because now the plans are for smartphone.

[iPhil]

one of the few "iPhone and AT&T" stories... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7574403)

^^
That story doesn't say that Verizon or anyone else besides ATT is getting iPhones for their carrier until 2012..... :p



The deal with AT&T is NOT for 5 years. If you work at an Apple Store, you get a memo saying that the deal is only for two years. I swear I am not making this up...but you obv wont believe me. The contract IS going to be up in June of 2009. Mark my words. I have no evidence other than a few people I know who work at some Apple stores. Go in and ask a genius in a store and MAYBE they will tell you.

Im not lying...I swear! :o





Strigl doesn't think the iPhone will be that hard to compete against. Why? Because, he says, for five long years it will be tied to AT&T's wireless network.


5 Year Agreement Snip Quote (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/2007-05-21-at&t-iphone_N.htm)... 2007 + 5 = 2012... :p

[joejoejoe]

valid to complain, yes

valid to say apple was supposed to or HAVE to include these things? hell no, they can put whatever they want into their product.

and your complaining about a few mm when you have 5+ hours of talk time?

have you held the phone in you hands? no. Dont complain about the shape or size until u do. For all you know it feels better in the hand than the first generation.

notice my rant, never once did I say apple was obligated to upgrade the camera, i was just pissy because in mind mind it made absolutely no sense for apple not to upgrade the camera, and that's exactly what they did.

and again, I didn't say that it is fatter, I said it looked fatter. The phone got uglier looking because of the thinner edges, i'm not saying that it won't feel better to hold.

[NT1440]

notice my rant, never once did I say apple was obligated to upgrade the camera, i was just pissy because in mind mind it made absolutely no sense for apple not to upgrade the camera, and that's exactly what they did.

and again, I didn't say that it is fatter, I said it looked fatter. The phone got uglier looking because of the thinner edges, i'm not saying that it won't feel better to hold.
so u lash out against a corporation for something u dont like, fair enough, but remember if you dont like it dont buy it.

[joejoejoe]

so u lash out against a corporation for something u dont like, fair enough, but remember if you dont like it dont buy it.

I love how complaining about one or two features turns into 'lashing out' on these forums. It seems like anywhere I go on this board the second people complain about an Apple product they get responses like "if you don't like it, don't buy it" or "go ahead an boycott, that means shorter lines for me!!!" instead of actually advancing the discussion. this is a discussion forum after all.

[kdarling]

Strigl doesn't think the iPhone will be that hard to compete against. Why? Because, he says, for five long years it will be tied to AT&T's wireless network.

The trouble is, you can't believe what reporters write. Seriously, they make up even supposed quotes.

For example, a quote from a respectable news source went around earlier this year claiming that Adobe's CEO said he was already porting Flash to the iPhone. Much was made of a supposed retraction the next day.

Yet if you listened to the actual tape, he said no such thing.

So now I always try to track down the original tape or person involved. In this case, I'd bet anything that the reporter put the "five years" in Strigl's mouth. He probably just said "years", because how would he know what the contract was?

Regards, Kev

[friekunater]

wow this thread is getting pretty interesting - too bad I have to break that pattern lol

I have an iPod touch and I think the App Store will be THE BEST thing for the iPhone/touch platform. First app on my list = Super Monkey Ball
looks amazing lol

also, I have a question but I don't want to start a new thread...
could I get an iPhone (preferably a 3G) and just get EDGE/3G data service and no phone service? I can text and MMS with Internet and I have wi-fi almost everywhere I go... just can't afford voice/text service

[sushi]

GPS makers are nervous
Why?

Just because cell phones have limited GPS capability, does not mean that individuals who need real full on GPS will stop needing this type of solution.

Same for digital cameras.

[NT1440]

Why?

Just because cell phones have limited GPS capability, does not mean that individuals who need real full on GPS will stop needing this type of solution.

Same for digital cameras.

if they have reason to or not, one HIGH ranking official at a big GPS company (cant remember which, but its in an article) did say that he was afraid.

[kdarling]

Just because cell phones have limited GPS capability, does not mean that individuals who need real full on GPS will stop needing this type of solution. Same for digital cameras.

Exactly. Converged handhelds remind me of the all-in-one fax / printer / copiers. Some people love the all-in-one convenience. Others would rather have separate devices. Some people even have both setups.

if they have reason to or not, one HIGH ranking official at a big GPS company (cant remember which, but its in an article) did say that he was afraid.

That was Popular Mechanics, and they quoted "the president of a GPS navigation system manufacturer ", which could be as little as a home garage outfit. Certainly no major maker's president would admit being scared of anything.

[NT1440]

Exactly. Converged handhelds remind me of the all-in-one fax / printer / copiers. Some people love the all-in-one convenience. Others would rather have separate devices. Some people even have both setups.



That was Popular Mechanics, and they quoted "the president of a GPS navigation system manufacturer ", which could be as little as a home garage outfit. Certainly no major maker's president would admit being scared of anything.

i remember reading on engadget or gizmodo an actual named CEO i beleive he was. it was deffinatly a big company. Ill have to look for that tomorrow seeing as im off to bed now

[Stang68]

I wonder why RIM got a touchscreen model rushed out into production... :rolleyes:
Screen size anyone? Even at the thumbnail size on the MR forum I can ID the calendar, phone, ipod and text buttons. RIM's look dark as hell. The benefits of screen space. 1 drawback, many advantages.

The Blackberry you had pictured was NOT the touchscreen one RIM is releasing on VZW. The one you have pictured is the Bold...not touchscreen at all. The Thunder is the touchscreen one due out in September. Get the facts right.

[Stang68]

I currently have a BlackBerry and I happen to frequent CrackBerry.com. I called the guy out on pretty much every one of his "points" in the thread you happened to come across. He came back and instead of presenting a valid debate, decided to personally insult me...

Over the past 3 weeks, I have lost a lot of respect for the community at CrackBerry. They used to be pretty cool, but since the 3G iPhone I-Day got closer, they have all started to get more aggressive in their iPhone hate. Now that is actually out, many people are talking about switching, and they are being bombarded with ding dongs like the one you quoted passing misleading information onto them.

It really has become a pretty comical place.

Its nice to see a fellow Crackberry user here! By the way, Crazetoon, I read the whole argument before you posted here and I must say, I was entertained by his rants. Anyways, Crackberry.com posters are getting a little edgy because their space is being invaded by the iPhone. Yea, Im a Blackberry user but a Mac user at heart haha. I see both sides equally...for the most part. It is getting ridiculous over there, though. Check out this post they put up on the home page:
http://crackberry.com/top-10-reasons-why-iphone-still-no-blackberry

They're taking it too far. The new iPhone is a great device, but I think RIM might be able to match it with the Thunder...maybe...kinda...possibly...WHEN IS THE iPHONE COMING TO VERIZON?!?!?!? GAHHH! (I heard next June. And yes, quote me on that.)

[iPhil]

Strigl doesn't think the iPhone will be that hard to compete against. Why? Because, he says, for five long years it will be tied to AT&T's wireless network.


5 Year Agreement Snip Quote (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/2007-05-21-at&t-iphone_N.htm)... 2007 + 5 = 2012... :p



The trouble is, you can't believe what reporters write. Seriously, they make up even supposed quotes.

For example, a quote from a respectable news source went around earlier this year claiming that Adobe's CEO said he was already porting Flash to the iPhone. Much was made of a supposed retraction the next day.

Yet if you listened to the actual tape, he said no such thing.

So now I always try to track down the original tape or person involved. In this case, I'd bet anything that the reporter put the "five years" in Strigl's mouth. He probably just said "years", because how would he know what the contract was?

Regards, Kev




Some info on the (5 years w/ Apple) on the iPhone agreement from ATT itself ..



Here's a guy who is head of the largest telephone company in America and its largest mobile phone company. He has a five-year iPhone exclusive giving AT&T the number one selling U.S. smart phone and a huge generator of primo subscribers mainly poached from other carriers. Christmas is a month away and 1-2 million Americans have been planning to give -- or hoping to get -- an iPhone. So what does the guy do? He lets it slip that next year Apple will release a faster iPhone that will make the existing model obsolete. The only impact this can have on current iPhone sales is to stop them in their tracks, unless Apple offers a free 3G upgrade, which believe me they never intended to offer and may not.


That's from ATT CEO's mouth....(Full Article) (http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20071129_003521.html).... :p


And I bet your gonna say, no he's wrong someone put that "5 years" term in his mouth ...


He's the CEO of the largest Cell carrier in US.... I'm gonna say that came from the horse mouth.... per say... :p

[HLdan]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Apple could be in trouble? I mean, they just didn't do enough to the iPhone 3G to make it leap ahead of the competition for ANOTHER year. Blackberry has the Bold and Thunder (touchscreen) coming out in a few months time and they can do everything that the new iPhone can! This has me worried. And yes, I am a current BB owner but that's only until the iPhone comes to VZW.

Anyone else agree with me?

Do you realize that you actually contradicted yourself. First you say that Apple has not done enough to the iPhone 3G to leap ahead of the competition especially in regards to the BB but then at the end you state that you are a current BB owner but that's only until Apple releases the iPhone to Verizon. You just proved that Apple doesn't need to step up the feature wagon because you are still buying one anyway.:rolleyes:

[CrazEtooN]

Its nice to see a fellow Crackberry user here! By the way, Crazetoon, I read the whole argument before you posted here and I must say, I was entertained by his rants. Anyways, Crackberry.com posters are getting a little edgy because their space is being invaded by the iPhone. Yea, Im a Blackberry user but a Mac user at heart haha. I see both sides equally...for the most part. It is getting ridiculous over there, though. Check out this post they put up on the home page:
http://crackberry.com/top-10-reasons-why-iphone-still-no-blackberry

They're taking it too far. The new iPhone is a great device, but I think RIM might be able to match it with the Thunder...maybe...kinda...possibly...WHEN IS THE iPHONE COMING TO VERIZON?!?!?!? GAHHH! (I heard next June. And yes, quote me on that.)

The blog entry you linked is more Kevin ribbing at The iPhone Blog guys than anything, but the comments are out of control.

I am all for using whatever device you want. If you love BlackBerry, great, they are awesome devices. If you love the iPhone, great, it is an awesome device. Even Windows Mobile has some redeeming qualities buried in menus somewhere...

I am just tired of the out of control people jumping on the BlackBerry bandwagon, hating on the iPhone with unfounded comments, and acting like RIM is impervious to any and all challengers. There is no such thing as a perfect device. BlackBerry isn't perfect, the iPhone isn't perfect, etc... I just wish some of them over there could see it.

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on CrackBerry.com. I still go there daily, and I still find some of the community very nice to converse with. It is just the past few weeks that it has been going downhill, and the amount of 3 post newbies running around acting like they know EVERYTHING is seriously getting out of control. There is nothing wrong with being a newbie, hell, I am one on this site, but if you are a newbie, you could at least post useful info and actual speak with half a degree of intelligence...

[Stang68]

Do you realize that you actually contradicted yourself. First you say that Apple has not done enough to the iPhone 3G to leap ahead of the competition especially in regards to the BB but then at the end you state that you are a current BB owner but that's only until Apple releases the iPhone to Verizon. You just proved that Apple doesn't need to step up the feature wagon because you are still buying one anyway.:rolleyes:

I did not contradict myself at all in my statement. I said the iPhone might be in trouble, thats it. Then I said I would still buy one. Nowhere did I say I wouldnt buy one. You've never purchased a product that you thought could be improved? Come on now...:rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on CrackBerry.com. I still go there daily, and I still find some of the community very nice to converse with. It is just the past few weeks that it has been going downhill, and the amount of 3 post newbies running around acting like they know EVERYTHING is seriously getting out of control. There is nothing wrong with being a newbie, hell, I am one on this site, but if you are a newbie, you could at least post useful info and actual speak with half a degree of intelligence...

Amen...

[Sweetbike40]

Exactly, once this app store drops all these threads will become ghosts. Apple doesn't have a thing to worry about. All these stupid threads about camera and other things. This thing is the platform for an amazing experience once this app store drops.

yeh, i agree. I think the camera isn't what to be concerned about. It is the applications. I always have my Canon Powershot with me...camera on a phone, to me, is useless. Video too is a waste. I don't care for crappy photos and video. But really cool applications and games on it are what it's all about.

[gloss]

Why?

Just because cell phones have limited GPS capability, does not mean that individuals who need real full on GPS will stop needing this type of solution.

Same for digital cameras.

Considering Tom-Tom is releasing a turn-by-turn voice nav app for the iPhone to properly leverage its GPS capability, I'd say that it's getting pretty close to qualifying as 'full-on GPS'.

I mean, hell, A-GPS is already going to be faster to get a lock than any stand-alone GPS unit.

[t0mat0]

Honestly, I don't see RIM doing anything else besides adopting a touch screen. I know this because they are using the same 4 button principle in the Thunder product. You are of course correct in that I don't "know" this, but I'd be willing to make a cash bet I'm correct.

I do count out RIM. I am actually posting the watered down version of how I feel. I'll sum up my true view on this. RIM is dead if the market is closed and finite in size for the smart phone. If it is expanding then they have hope.

Best,

Alex Alexzander


Alex - i'm busy right now, but I just wanted to say excellent posts wrt Blackberry. It's appreciated :D
Is this http://leaders.creativecow.net/leaders/alexzander_alex/ you?

In terms of RIM and Blackberry, I feel the press is going to be tooing and froing a lot as Apple and carriers drip IV Apple Kool Aid into the market.

[Stang68]

@ T0mat0: I personally do not agree with what you are saying about RIM. They are a great company from what I have seen in my two months of owning a Blackberry. Yes, I would still prefer an iPhone to my Curve but right now that's not in the cards because I have Vzw. I am happy with my BB and will be until I get an iPhone. I think it premature to call RIM dead. They have two great looking phones coming out this year (Bold and Thunder) and I think they will be healthy competition for the iPhone. Don't count them out...yet.

[kdarling]

He has a five-year iPhone exclusive giving AT&T the number one selling U.S. smart phone and a huge generator of primo subscribers mainly poached from other carriers[/u]. ... snip ...
That's from ATT CEO's mouth....(Full Article) (http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20071129_003521.html).... :p

Sorry, but I don't see any quote in there from the CEO saying five years. Again, that's the reporter throwing the number around on his own. :)

When the iPhone came out, there were two seminal articles guessing on the contract. One said two years. One said five years.

iPhone fans seized on the five years as some kind of proof that Apple was extra clever.... not thinking it through to realize that an exclusivity clause was totally to ATT's benefit, and it meant that Apple bent over badly. (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/01/15/apple_cingular_claim_victory_over_eachother_say_more_iphones_in_queue.html) Worse, Apple lost access to most of the USAs phone market. (ATT is only 1/3.)

ATT, on the other hand, lost nothing. They simply agreed to give Apple the monthly subsidy that usually went to their customers, for one year.

[sfoalex]

Alex - i'm busy right now, but I just wanted to say excellent posts wrt Blackberry. It's appreciated :D
Is this http://leaders.creativecow.net/leaders/alexzander_alex/ you?

In terms of RIM and Blackberry, I feel the press is going to be tooing and froing a lot as Apple and carriers drip IV Apple Kool Aid into the market.

That is indeed me. However, I have not written for Creative Cow in a few years. All of those articles are so out-dated I wish they'd just erase them. I don't even go to that site anymore, nor do I write about authoring or editing anymore.

Best,

Alex Alexzander

[t0mat0]

@ T0mat0: I personally do not agree with what you are saying about RIM. They are a great company from what I have seen in my two months of owning a Blackberry. Yes, I would still prefer an iPhone to my Curve but right now that's not in the cards because I have Vzw. I am happy with my BB and will be until I get an iPhone. I think it premature to call RIM dead. They have two great looking phones coming out this year (Bold and Thunder) and I think they will be healthy competition for the iPhone. Don't count them out...yet.

Sorry, what did I say about RIM? Lots of posts these last few days.

They are good, they;ve got enterprise using them as the de facto standard - Apple is aiming not to match it, but match it and beat it. I wasn't calling RIM dead - the article linked was.

As the smartphone market is about to mushroom (as long as a serious depression doesn't kick in), RIM and AAPL can both get more sales. Apple will take some marketshare though, that's for sure. 35% of Fortune 500 looking for alternatives? That's big news.

If 3G iPhones in Enterprise and business do give a decent provable competitive edge, you can bet that the more adaptable ones, SMEs will pick it up. A small business running these of mobileme gives a fledgling company a great service it can then upgrade to. They can easily be trialled at work places I imagine, and the fear of missing out on iPhone business solutions will push the more monolithic companies into some sort of action. It isn't exactly like it's going to be too hard for IT departments to get iPhones running, if they've already got Microsoft Exchange, from the keynote quotes. I'd imagine there will be an O2 and a Apple drive towards business. Just look at where Snow Leopard is - developer friendly, maximising GPU, multi-core, giving a stable platform, right when Microsoft is going urrrrrrrr, look at um, this demo of Paint on a Surface... Vista's great. etc Business as a whole hasn't moved to Vista. Which is interesting as Apple might be fast enough to give it a rival in Leopard & iPhone, then Snow Leopard for serious number crunching, visuals, and enterprise.

[Stang68]

Yes, I think its great that Apple is pointing their sights towards businesses. While Microsoft is talking about Surface, Apple will be making Leopard even better! It only makes sense that they are going after RIM...because Apple wants to take over the world! Hahaha

[kdarling]

I mean, hell, A-GPS is already going to be faster to get a lock than any stand-alone GPS unit.

That's partly the reason why every Verizon phone has had A-GPS for years... for quick E911 location finding.

But a standalone GPS doesn't necessarily need a quick Time To First Fix (TTFF). They're usually powered up before hiking or driving or flying. After that, their larger antenna and multiple channels allow them to keep up even in most reception conditions.

A phone is different. It's often in a pocket or purse. It has limited battery. The GPS section is often powered down. When a person wants to use a location based service, they want the answer promptly, or they'll lose interest. They're often indoors as well. Thus the need for quick TTFF assistance.

[t0mat0]

But a standalone GPS doesn't necessarily need a quick Time To First Fix (TTFF). They're usually powered up before hiking or driving or flying. After that, their larger antenna and multiple channels allow them to keep up even in most reception conditions.

A phone is different. It's often in a pocket or purse. It has limited battery. The GPS section is often powered down. When a person wants to use a location based service, they want the answer promptly, or they'll lose interest. They're often indoors as well. Thus the need for quick TTFF assistance.

I think consumer standalone GPS's would be more useful with a decent TTFF. Just cuts down on that wait at the start. I would have thought that most GPS systems would want to incorporate some assisted GPSness?
Standing around waiting for your Forerunner or Garmin handheld to fix is a bit boring when you could be hitting the trail...