Apple Seeds Safari 4 to Developers

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple has started seeding developers with an early version of Safari 4 (5526.11.2). The releases comes amidst news of Apple's plans for Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/06/09snowleopard.html)) which will focus on performance and quality.

In their press release for Snow Leopard, Apple revealed that Snow Leopard includes Safari "with the fastest implementation of JavaScript ever, increasing performance by 53 percent, making Web 2.0 applications feel more responsive." Apple will reportedly accomplish this dramatic speedup with SquirrelFish technology (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/05/safari-to-get-javascript-speed-enhancements/) which is currently under development for Webkit. Snow Leopard is due for release in "about a year", though Safari 4 release could come much sooner and for existing operating systems. In fact, they are seeding versions specifically for Windows, Tiger and Leopard.

Apple's focus on high performance Javascript becomes obvious now that they have demoed the new web applications that come with MobileMe (http://www.apple.com/mobileme/) (Guided Tour (http://www.apple.com/mobileme/guidedtour/)). MobileMe provides web-applications for email, calendar and address book which were described as being as responsive as desktop-based applications.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/10/apple-seeds-safari-4-to-developers/)

[dizastor]

Wow. I hope we don't have to wait a year.

I hope it's not the only "new feature" of Snow Leopard

[callmemike20]

Great...hope it has the same look as mobile me. (the black)

[crazzyeddie]

Any idea when SquirrelFish will be in the Webkit nightly builds?

[amac4me]

Nice to see Apple moving forward with Safari 4. I suppose we'll see Snow Leopard released at or by next years WWDC

[richard.mac]

so does this mean Safari will be snappier? :D

[Maui]

If MobileMe fixes bookmark syncing, I might take a look at S4. Otherwise, I'll stick with Firefox.

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

so does this mean Safari will be snappier? :D

In theory for the java based web applications.

[richard.mac]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)



In theory for the java based web applications.

OoOoOo boy!

[officerdick]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)



In theory for the java based web applications.

The JavaScript web applications (AJAX) Java is something completeley else.

[Sijmen]

Great...hope it has the same look as mobile me. (the black)

No. I want it too look like all other applications on the platform. No brushed metal all over again, please.

[Sun Baked]

so does this mean Safari will be snappier? :D

Read the Apple website quote...

Safari runs JavaScript up to 53 percent faster ...

[grabberslasher]

Took a shot of Saf 4, awesome web app saving. Uploading…

[kinless]

I'm also hoping this version becomes the first browser to successfully pass the Acid3 test.

[Shadow]

Any idea when SquirrelFish will be in the Webkit nightly builds?

I think it already is.

[marcj]

Any idea when SquirrelFish will be in the Webkit nightly builds?

It already is. You can run javascript tests on the webkit site. I got close to a 2x improvement over Safari 3.1

[Eraserhead]

I'm also hoping this version becomes the first browser to successfully pass the Acid3 test.

Webkit already has. So I'd imagine Safari 4 will too, and probably Safari 3.2 will as well...

[johnnyjibbs]

Safari 4 sounds good. There must be some new features in Snow Leopard, however, or else what's the point in buying it? Leopard runs really fast on my new MBP anyway - I wouldn't really notice a 50% speed increase - certainly not to warrant buying another £80.

[morespce54]

Read the Apple website quote...

Well, that's the usual running gag...
For the first time, it *might* actually be snappier! ;)

After all, isn't Snow-leopard supposed to be all about fixes, security and speed? :)


O.T. I didn't even knew about Fluid...:o
Looks great... Can't wait for (finally!) really useful Webclips...

[eXan]

i think they will release safari 4 at the same time as mobileme...

[bootedbear]

In theory for the java based web applications.Java and JavaScript have nothing to do with each other.

[oyebto]

as long as it is free, man.

[Fotek2001]

Safari 4 only gets to 98% in the Acid 3 test (I've just tried it)... :confused:

[Peace]

Safari 4 only gets to 98% in the Acid 3 test (I've just tried it)... :confused:

Try that under 10.6 and see what happens.

I'm just sayin.:)

[netdog]

so does this mean Safari will be snappier? :D

Snappiest :p

[milo]

So does this build support PPC or just intel?

[k2spitfire88]

Will Safari 4 fix the massive memory leak that seems to occur whenever Safari stays open for a while?

[minik]

It runs pretty well on my Vista box, definitely faster.

[Warbrain]

Me want...shame that I can't find it.

edit: Got it!

[hugodrax]

let me say that Etrade pro runs buttery smooth on my OS X. Compared to my windows platform, java runs nice.

No lockups,crashes etc.. solid which is important when trading :)

[lofight]

Me want...shame that I can't find it.

edit: Got it!

How did you get it?

[forumdude]

what do you mean by apple seed mac safari? hmmm can anyone explain it furthur in a simple word?

[lofight]

what do you mean by apple seed mac safari? hmmm can anyone explain it furthur in a simple word?

Apple has given a new version of safari to developers.

[sebastianlewis]

Any idea when SquirrelFish will be in the Webkit nightly builds?

It already is, that's how Macrumors found out, from the WebKit blog.

In theory for the java based web applications.

Java is not JavaScript, while both share the first 4 letters, and both are evil, they're not the same.

Webkit already has. So I'd imagine Safari 4 will too, and probably Safari 3.2 will as well...

Safari 3.2 isn't likely if Apple is already working on 4.

Safari 4 sounds good. There must be some new features in Snow Leopard, however, or else what's the point in buying it? Leopard runs really fast on my new MBP anyway - I wouldn't really notice a 50% speed increase - certainly not to warrant buying another £80.

Stability, improvements to the underlying architecture, more speed, hopefully it'll take up less space (if they were to drop PPC the binaries would get smaller), getting the kernel to 64-bit, Quicktime X, and OpenCL. If you're running Leopard and don't want to buy Snow Leopard that's fine, but the install base of Snow Leopard will probably end up surpassing Leopard since all new Macs will be sold with Snow Leopard when it does come out, and of course a lot of people will upgrade anyway for the improvements in speed and stability, even if you're not one of them.

Sebastian

[Eraserhead]

Safari 4 only gets to 98% in the Acid 3 test (I've just tried it)... :confused:

Run it again, you should do better ;).

[minik]

Not necessary. You can be a free ADC online member and grab the software.

[Eraserhead]

So does this build support PPC or just intel?

It works on PPC.

[gifford]

so does this mean Safari will be snappier? :D
get with the times "Zippier" is the new "Snappier".

steve said so :)

[Peace]

Run it again, you should do better ;).

Here ya go ;)

[Warbrain]

Wow, it does run pretty fast. I would like 1passwd to work, though...

[Zoboomafoo]

Will Safari 4 fix the massive memory leak that seems to occur whenever Safari stays open for a while?

omg. that would be AMAZING. worth a snow leopard upgrade price by itself.

[memco]

Safari 4 only gets to 98% in the Acid 3 test (I've just tried it)... :confused:

The webkit nightlies have been able to pass with 100/100 for a month or two now, so I hope that Safari 4 is able to do so. As an aside, has anyone run Acid3 with the new squirrelfish engine? It seems it can run it almost perfectly now. In the three times I ran it, it actually animated smoothly through once, which I believe was the last hurdle for perfect compliance.

[compuguy1088]

How did you get it?

I don't see safari 4 on the developer connection anywhere, it must be only for actual paying ADC members....

[darbyclash34]

Safari 4 sounds good. There must be some new features in Snow Leopard, however, or else what's the point in buying it? Leopard runs really fast on my new MBP anyway - I wouldn't really notice a 50% speed increase - certainly not to warrant buying another £80.


People pay huge amounts for new computer's that in certain tests will give a 10-15% performance gain, but $129 isn't worth it for a 50% speed increase? I guess that MacBook Pro must have replaced your Mac 128k.

[xUKHCx]

The webkit nightlies have been able to pass with 100/100 for a month or two now, so I hope that Safari 4 is able to do so. As an aside, has anyone run Acid3 with the new squirrelfish engine? It seems it can run it almost perfectly now. In the three times I ran it, it actually animated smoothly through once, which I believe was the last hurdle for perfect compliance.

webkit != Safari


I don't see safari 4 on the developer connection anywhere, it must be only for actual paying ADC members....

I have a free account and managed to download it.

Hope this link works, sign in here (https://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/wa/promo?source=ADCLOG&code=ADCLOG-NEX) and then you should be able to download it

[macintosh tech]

Pulling it down now. Figure I would run it for the next few weeks and see how it goes.

[compuguy1088]

webkit != Safari




I have a free account and managed to download it.

Hope this link works, sign in here (https://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/wa/promo?source=ADCLOG&code=ADCLOG-NEX) and then you should be able to download it

Yep that works...thanks!

[richard.mac]

…
I have a free account and managed to download it.

Hope this link works, sign in here (https://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/wa/promo?source=ADCLOG&code=ADCLOG-NEX) and then you should be able to download it

you da man! or is all i had to do was input my Apple username and password?? im not a developer

[compuguy1088]

hmmm.. that bay :D

Or you could just sign up for a free developers account...and use that link...either way works.

[xUKHCx]

you da man! or is all i had to do was input my Apple username and password?? im not a developer

You can sign up for a free account (it is what I have).

[lofight]

Or you could just sign up for a free developers account...and use that link...either way works.

the bay doesn't work. Using ADC now..
EDIT: I downloaded it, but when installing the unversal one, it says I can't. I do have a intel imac...

[MotleyPete]

File>Save as web application = Awesome

[chabig]

Safari 4 sounds good. There must be some new features in Snow Leopard, however, or else what's the point in buying it?

Let's just be patient and see what happens. Apple hasn't yet said that they'll charge anything.

[compuguy1088]

File>Save as web application = Awesome

Very much reminds me of Mozilla's prism :D. Works just as well.

[commander.data]

Anyone know if Safari 4 will still be available on Tiger? Or is 3.1.1 the end of the line? The just released Quicktime 7.5 still supports Panther so there might be hope yet.

[lofight]

This is the message I get when I try to install the safari dev preview.

You can't install Safari Dev Preview on this volume. This volume does not meet the requirements for this update

What's wrong? I'm installing the universal one. I do have intel..

[MotleyPete]

Very much reminds me of Mozilla's prism :D. Works just as well.

Now I have BBC iPlayer and BBC Radio Apps on my dock.

I can see this coming in really handy indeed.

[xUKHCx]

Anyone know if Safari 4 will still be available on Tiger? Or is 3.1.1 the end of the line? The just released Quicktime 7.5 still supports Panther so there might be hope yet.

There is a specific download for Tiger so yes it will be available for Tiger.

[Peace]

This is the message I get when I try to install the safari dev preview.



What's wrong? I'm installing the universal one. I do have intel..

What version of Leopard are you using?

[lofight]

What version of Leopard are you using?

Well.. Tiger, but I downloaded the the dev preview for tiger.

[Maury]

It already is. You can run javascript tests on the webkit site. I got close to a 2x improvement over Safari 3.1

Yeah, it's really great.

I run Safari on both my Mac at home and XP at work, mainly so I have the same UI in both places. But the XP version is prone to "dead times" when a JS will go into a tightloop and bring down everything -- the window in question, other Safari windows, even other apps. It comes back eventually, but I've force-quit more than once to avoid waiting.

Zero examples of this in the new WebKit builds! And it's _really_ obviously faster too. I guess enough pages use JS that this is major performance boost, because overall browsing speed is noticeably faster.

I'm very happy with it, and would recommend it to anyone. Now if only they could get Find working in text editors...

Maury

[g-7]

Well.. Tiger, but I downloaded the the dev preview for tiger.

Have you installed Safari 3.1.1 before trying to install Safari 4?

[Eraserhead]

Well.. Tiger, but I downloaded the the dev preview for tiger.

You have to install Safari 3.1.1 first on Tiger ;).

[lofight]

Have you installed Safari 3.1.1 before trying to install Safari 4?
OH
You have to install Safari 3.1.1 first on Tiger ;).
OH
:p

[Peace]

This is cool. I'm running spy.macrumors.com as an app and it works!

[clevin]

there should be some other major changes to justify the hype, after all, safari's javascript improved more than 2x from version 3.0.4 to 3.1....

[GGJstudios]

I've downloaded Safari 4, but haven't installed it yet. I have a few questions before I do:
Any recommendations on backing up 3.1 before installing 4.0?
What if I need to roll back to 3.1?
Has anyone who installed 4.0 seen issues/problems yet?

[lofight]

I've downloaded Safari 4, but haven't installed it yet. I have a few questions before I do:
Any recommendations on backing up 3.1 before installing 4.0?
What if I need to roll back to 3.1?
Has anyone who installed 4.0 seen issues/problems yet?


There is an uninstall option in the DMG that brings is back to the previous version.
As stable as the previous so seems..

[twoodcc]

very nice. cant wait for mobileme

[bjett92]

Safari is definitely snappier. For real this time.

[k2spitfire88]

Safari is definitely zippier. For real this time.

i fixed it for you :D

[eXan]

But what about the memory leak??

[k2spitfire88]

But what about the memory leak??

yea, i posted that above, and i hope that is one of the things that gets addressed, because nothing slows safari down long term like a memory leak.

[yamki]

File>Save as web application = Awesome

How is this awesome? It's a 1 megabyte bookmark that will crowd your dock and hard disk. You have no way of seeing what site you're on, whether it's secure, or anything else about it. How long before phishing sites start sending out "web applications" that dupes will use, not being able to see where they are? There's nothing to prevent you from navigating away from the site that you open to (programmatically or otherwise) and it's a simple modification of the entry in the info.plist file to redirect you someplace else.

Feels a lot more gimmicky than useful, and an almost embarrassing implementation that's nothing more than a Webkit window that opens on a stored URL. The potential downside far outweighs any sort of benefit, at least as far as I can tell.

[mirffy]

So am I the only one who hates the way Safari handles tabs? The context menu that is available when you open too many tabs and the next one just spills over is simply inconvenient.
Hopefully that's something they're going to improve!

[clevin]

How is this awesome? It's a 1 megabyte bookmark that will crowd your dock and hard disk. You have no way of seeing what site you're on, whether it's secure, or anything else about it. How long before phishing sites start sending out "web applications" that dupes will use, not being able to see where they are? There's nothing to prevent you from navigating away from the site that you open to (programmatically or otherwise) and it's a simple modification of the entry in the info.plist file to redirect you someplace else.

Feels a lot more gimmicky than useful, and an almost embarrassing implementation that's nothing more than a Webkit window that opens on a stored URL. The potential downside far outweighs any sort of benefit, at least as far as I can tell.
Its an option, you don't need to use it, as long as its user initiated process, its fine
So am I the only one who hates the way Safari handles tabs? The context menu that is available when you open too many tabs and the next one just spills over is simply inconvenient.
Hopefully that's something they're going to improve!

There is a lot stuff safari need to improve, its better or more effective if you file a feedback about something you would really like to be improved.

[reallynotnick]

I love the latest Webkit, I am using it right now. JS is BLAZING fast on this browser and it gets a 100% on the Acid3 test, Safari 3.1 only got 75 and FF 2 got only 55.

Now if only Adobe could fix flash or it was gotten rid from the internet, life would be grand.

And I don't have any problems with memory leaks in Safari, I did have lots in FireFox though.

[eXan]

And I don't have any problems with memory leaks in Safari, I did have lots in FireFox though.

Both of my Macs have memory leak in Safari under both Tiger and Leopard (didn't check in earlier OSes, but I didn't have unlimited DSL back then so surfing time was very limited).

On MacBook for example, I open Safari in the morning and by the end of the day it takes 250-300 MB RAM. Thats insane for a mere web browser!

[Stridder44]

No. I want it too look like all other applications on the platform. No brushed metal all over again, please.

I hope they do. I'm sick of this "light gray on darker gray" crap that both Safari and the OS X UI uses.

Awesome news that Safari 4 is already under development. I'm assuming it's competing with Firefox 3, which has shown amazing changes.

[pawsey]

Installed on my macbook running leopard, and imac g3 running tiger and worked amazing. I can finally use the imac comfortably to browse the web. I would have enough paid to get that imac internet useful again. I almost spent 70 bucks on more ram for an old computer. Amazing!

[superfula]

Both of my Macs have memory leak in Safari under both Tiger and Leopard (didn't check in earlier OSes, but I didn't have unlimited DSL back then so surfing time was very limited).

On MacBook for example, I open Safari in the morning and by the end of the day it takes 250-300 MB RAM. Thats insane for a mere web browser!

That's not a memory leak; just the amount of ram Safari uses. It's always been like that.

[eXan]

That's not a memory leak; just the amount of ram Safari uses. It's always been like that.

On launch it takes like 50 MB and still works the same as after taking 300 MB. If thats not a memory leak, I don't know what it is.

[superfula]

On launch it takes like 50 MB and still works the same as after taking 300 MB. If thats not a memory leak, I don't know what it is.

If that is your definition of a memory leak, then every app suffers from it.

[eXan]

If that is your definition of a memory leak, then every app suffers from it.

Mail doesn't, Aduim doesn't, Address Book doesn't, iSync doesn't, iCal doesn't, Dictionary doesn't, Word doesn't, Pages doesn't, Handbrake doesn't, iTunes doesn't, Toast doesn't, Motion doesn't, Final Cut Pro doesn't....... to name just a few.

What is your definition of a memory leak?

[superfula]

Mail doesn't, Aduim doesn't, Address Book doesn't, iSync doesn't, iCal doesn't, Dictionary doesn't, Word doesn't, Pages doesn't, Handbrake doesn't, iTunes doesn't, Toast doesn't, Motion doesn't, Final Cut Pro doesn't....... to name just a few.

What is your definition of a memory leak?

Yes they do. The Dock even does. They don't reach 300 for me, but all use significantly more than they do at launch. It's normal ram usage.

Safari taking up 300MB is nothing. It's simply using the ram that is available. Now if it's pushing a gig after several hours of usage, then you have a problem. In that instance, chances are something else is affecting it.

[MotleyPete]

How is this awesome? It's a 1 megabyte bookmark that will crowd your dock and hard disk. You have no way of seeing what site you're on, whether it's secure, or anything else about it. How long before phishing sites start sending out "web applications" that dupes will use, not being able to see where they are? There's nothing to prevent you from navigating away from the site that you open to (programmatically or otherwise) and it's a simple modification of the entry in the info.plist file to redirect you someplace else.

Feels a lot more gimmicky than useful, and an almost embarrassing implementation that's nothing more than a Webkit window that opens on a stored URL. The potential downside far outweighs any sort of benefit, at least as far as I can tell.


One megabite! Oh Noes! The Horror!

[eXan]

Yes they do. The Dock even does. They don't reach 300 for me, but all use significantly more than they do at launch. It's normal ram usage.

Safari taking up 300MB is nothing. It's simply using the ram that is available. Now if it's pushing a gig after several hours of usage, then you have a problem. In that instance, chances are something else is affecting it.

Uhh I could understand that if Safari used all that space when it has many pages/tabs open, but why it wouldn't let this RAM go if I close them? Like apps I've listed do. If I don't close Safari for a week, it'd grow over 1 GB! Don't tell me it's normal for a web browser! Even Aperture uses less for light work!

[pbbaker123]

File>Save as web application = Awesome

Forgive me for not knowing the significance of this, but please explain what this feature does and why I might need it. Thanks.

[MotleyPete]

Forgive me for not knowing the significance of this, but please explain what this feature does and why I might need it. Thanks.

You can save web based apps as Mac apps. Similar to what Fluid (http://fluidapp.com/) does.

For example, I saved the BBC iPlayer as an application, so I can click it in my dock and it opens straight to the player, separate from my browser.

I find that useful, not only for convenience but because sometimes I'm watching/listening to something while I'm surfing the web and then I quit my browser (or it crashes) and I find that I have cut-off what I was watching/listening too. Having some items as separate apps can avoid this sort of problem. I'm sure there are other handy uses (for mail, maps, online docs etc) and perhaps there might even be customizable options in the future (adding preferences and whatnot).

I'd imagine that some people will find it really useful and others will have no use for it at all (like the dashboard in that respect).

[pbbaker123]

You can save web based apps as Mac apps.

For example, I saved the BBC iPlayer as an application, so I can click it in my dock and it opens straight to the player, separate from my browser.

I find that useful, not only for convenience but because sometimes I'm watching/listening to something while I'm surfing the web and then I quit my browser (or it crashes) and find that I have cut off what I was watching/listening too. Having some items as separate apps can avoid this sort of problem. I'm sure there are other handy uses (for mail, maps, online docs etc) and perhaps there might even be customizable options in the future (adding preferences and whatnot).

I'd imagine that some people will find it really useful and others will have no use for it at all. Sort of like the dashboard.


So, for my radio station that I listen to on the internet while at office, that I have to not only have Safari open, but can't be minimized to dock to play content, I can now save the player such that Safari does not need to be open? That would be cool


side note on this subject: I used to be able to add stations that I wanted to listen to to iTunes (been a few years ago now... but I was again trying to do that the other day and could not figure out how to do it)

Sorry for off subject question.......

[MotleyPete]

So, for my radio station that I listen to on the internet while at office, that I have to not only have Safari open, but can't be minimized to dock to play content, I can now save the player such that Safari does not need to be open? That would be cool

Exactly.

side note on this subject: I used to be able to add stations that I wanted to listen to to iTunes (been a few years ago now... but I was again trying to do that the other day and could not figure out how to do it)

Sorry for off subject question.......

Press 'cmd u' and enter the URL of the radio station

[PCMacUser]

I haven't used Safari in a long, long time. But if there's anything amazing about this new version, I might give it another go when it's released.

[pbbaker123]

thanks

[Chundles]

I don't get the Web Application thing.

From what I can see it's just opening Safari (without calling it Safari) and showing a bookmark without the address bar.

Somebody care to shed some light?

[MotleyPete]

To be fair, Fluid is much better, because Fluid created apps can be customized and made into menulets etc.

[Chundles]

But how is it an "Application"?

It's just a cut down version of Safari that doesn't say Safari in the menu bar.

How is actually helpful?

To the person who uses iPlayer as a web app? How is it not just a Safari window that says "iPlayer" in the menu bar? What makes it an actual application?

[MotleyPete]

But how is it an "Application"?

It's just a cut down version of Safari that doesn't say Safari in the menu bar.

How is actually helpful?

To the person who uses iPlayer as a web app? How is it not just a Safari window that says "iPlayer" in the menu bar? What makes it an actual application?


If it were a Safari window then when I quit Safari (or Safari crashed) it would also quit, but it doesn't, because it's a separate app. I suppose it's like a mini Safari that runs separately, but it's a similar ethos to the Dashboard. Anything in the Dashboard can be found through Safari too, but some people find Widgets quick and convenient none the less (others do not).

With Fluid I've managed in about a minute to make a menulet for BBC Radio, with customized size and transparency, that launches at startup so I can just click the menulet to reveal the radio player and choose channels, shows etc. This is more convenient for me when working than having it in a Safari window. I'm sure there are other uses but they will depend on a users needs (Google apps are popular I hear). The Safari version is more basic than Fluid, but I'm sure more customizable options will be developed by third parties.

Like I said. Some people will find these things useful and others will not, Like with the Dashboard (which are more often than not just little customized web apps anyway).

[Maury]

Safari 4 sounds good. There must be some new features in Snow Leopard, however, or else what's the point in buying it? Leopard runs really fast on my new MBP anyway - I wouldn't really notice a 50% speed increase - certainly not to warrant buying another £80.

Here's what I _guess_ is happening...

Apple has been working with a new compiler technology called LLVM. According to most of the comments I've seen about it, LLVM is "radically better" than gcc when it comes to generating code. However, it still uses the existing gcc "front end" compiler to read the code and parse it, before handing it off to the LLVM system to turn it into source code.

What this means is that LLVM can be used to compile Cocoa, and when you do, it gets much smaller and faster. Like "presto". Of course, you need to make sure the compiler tool-chain actually does what it says, and that takes a lot of hard work and a whole lot of testing. Every time you find a bug in the chain you have to fix it and then re-compile everything and test it all over again. Since it's the compiler it touches every single piece of code on the system, there's no simple way to isolate the changes.

But if you do go through with all the effort, you end up with a platform that works better. Everything works better. But it takes a lot of time to make sure you get it right, especially with a project like LLVM that hasn't seen the same sort of wide-scale use (and thus testing) that GCC has. Maybe it will take an entire year to get it right...

Combine that with general tweaks and cleanup, zfs and a new QuickTime and you've got one hell of an OS. I don't know about you, but for me the number one feature of an OS is stability, followed closely by performance. Everything else I can do with 3rd party applications (assuming they exist and work well, so no, I don't run Linux). If Snow Leopard is significantly better in these regards and I can boot off of zfs, I'll be lined up to buy it, and I would recommend the same to anyone.

Maury

[Maury]

there should be some other major changes to justify the hype, after all, safari's javascript improved more than 2x from version 3.0.4 to 3.1....

As I said, JS tight-loops in one window no longer "lock up" other windows. It's a seriously major improvement. AND it's faster.

Maury

[Sabon]

Forgive me for not knowing the significance of this, but please explain what this feature does and why I might need it. Thanks.

I might have some examples of where this would come in VERY handy. These are business examples but you can come up with your own non business ones if you want.

Where I work we have more and more web based in house apps. Meaning ones that the company itself writes for itself instead of buying third party apps.

As examples, our call center uses several web based apps. One for each of the different five password reset programs that we have. One for the call tracking software. One for the alert software for call tracking when a ticket has been assigned to their queue, one for seeing how many calls are in their group's queue waiting to be answered. Those are just some of the web based apps they use.

Current web browsers have no clue if they are running an app or a web page that is just a web page. So when you open up different pages it will open up the browser window in the same spot every time for each one of them, causing them to overlap. This is VERY irritating. Especially since they have two, three, or four monitors connected to their one computer and there is a space (individually choose by person) where they want these apps to appear to they can more efficiently take care of any particular call and get to the next customer in a polite and professional way.

A much better way would be for each web based app to know where that particular app is supposed to open up so they don't have to re-arrange their desktop each time they have to reboot. In this case we are stuck with Windows but Safari runs on Windows and most of these do not require the piece of #$*&#*$ Active-X controls.

There's an example of why you would want to save certain web pages as apps.

[Riemann Zeta]

I'm running Safari4 right now on Leo. It seems nice...pretty stable for a beta. The interesting thing is that it uses the option "Run in 32bit Mode" on my machine. This means that the binary is 64bit, right? I wonder what the effects of running it in 64bit mode are? I don't think I have any other 64bit apps on Leo.

[clevin]

Here's what I _guess_ is happening...

Apple has been working with a new compiler technology called LLVM. According to most of the comments I've seen about it, LLVM is "radically better" than gcc when it comes to generating code. However, it still uses the existing gcc "front end" compiler to read the code and parse it, before handing it off to the LLVM system to turn it into source code.

What this means is that LLVM can be used to compile Cocoa, and when you do, it gets much smaller and faster. Like "presto". Of course, you need to make sure the compiler tool-chain actually does what it says, and that takes a lot of hard work and a whole lot of testing. Every time you find a bug in the chain you have to fix it and then re-compile everything and test it all over again. Since it's the compiler it touches every single piece of code on the system, there's no simple way to isolate the changes.

But if you do go through with all the effort, you end up with a platform that works better. Everything works better. But it takes a lot of time to make sure you get it right, especially with a project like LLVM that hasn't seen the same sort of wide-scale use (and thus testing) that GCC has. Maybe it will take an entire year to get it right...

Combine that with general tweaks and cleanup, zfs and a new QuickTime and you've got one hell of an OS. I don't know about you, but for me the number one feature of an OS is stability, followed closely by performance. Everything else I can do with 3rd party applications (assuming they exist and work well, so no, I don't run Linux). If Snow Leopard is significantly better in these regards and I can boot off of zfs, I'll be lined up to buy it, and I would recommend the same to anyone.

Maury

LLVM is a cross-platform Open Source Project initiated and gathered at UIUC, apple, like many other groups such as adobe, contributed some resources, that doesn't make apple the owner of LLVM.

LLVM is very closely related to GCC. Because apple is unwilling to obey GPLv3, which is the license under which GCC is developed currently, apple has to deviate more from GCC and spend more resources to sorta reinvent the wheel...

[Maury]

LLVM is a cross-platform Open Source Project initiated and gathered at UIUC, apple, like many other groups such as adobe, contributed some resources, that doesn't make apple the owner of LLVM.

Owner? I never said, or even remotely implied, anything of the sort.

LLVM is very closely related to GCC.

WAS very closely related to GCC. And would have been more-so if not for the politics of the FSF and GCC development efforts. Everyone, even those within the GCC world that were highly supportive of LLVM, just burned out and gave up. And the result is that GCC continues to plod along at the same sloth-like pace it did when everyone was complaining about it in 2005. It's been three years since all of these extension proposals came up, and there is very little to show for it.

So now we have clang. When clang+llvm is ready for prime time, GCC will largely go the way of the dodo (on the Mac, that is). And that's a good thing, because GCC can hardly be considered a paragon of development systems; practically every commercial compiler runs rings around it for at least some widely seen use-cases, and in general the only real upside to GCC is that it kinda compiles code for a lot of ISAs, even if it does a crap job of it (which it does).

Apple's entire product line is based on GCC, what were they going to do? Wait and see if the politics of the open source world suddenly went away? Pause while they measured if the development cycle of GCC sped back up? Use a commercial toolchain and be at the mercy of a potentially fickle 3rd party? Anyone remember "Bedrock"?

apple has to deviate more from GCC and spend more resources to sorta reinvent the wheel...

The wheel in question was in desperate need of re-inventing anyway. That much is obvious. If the rest of the OS community did the work I'm sure it would all be butterflies and rainbows. Hey, they could even call it "GCC+".

And let's not forget that clang and llvm are "more free" than GCC - you have the freedom to lock it into commercial products. Both projects appear to have an active developer base and seem to be progressing much more rapidly than GCC. Let's see what happens when they finally go gold with C++.

Maury

[GGJstudios]

You can save web based apps as Mac apps. Similar to what Fluid (http://fluidapp.com/) does.

For example, I saved the BBC iPlayer as an application, so I can click it in my dock and it opens straight to the player, separate from my browser.

I find that useful, not only for convenience but because sometimes I'm watching/listening to something while I'm surfing the web and then I quit my browser (or it crashes) and I find that I have cut-off what I was watching/listening too. Having some items as separate apps can avoid this sort of problem. I'm sure there are other handy uses (for mail, maps, online docs etc) and perhaps there might even be customizable options in the future (adding preferences and whatnot).

I'd imagine that some people will find it really useful and others will have no use for it at all (like the dashboard in that respect).


Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't dragging a link to your desktop, dock, etc. accomplish the same thing?

[compuguy1088]

But how is it an "Application"?

It's just a cut down version of Safari that doesn't say Safari in the menu bar.

How is actually helpful?

To the person who uses iPlayer as a web app? How is it not just a Safari window that says "iPlayer" in the menu bar? What makes it an actual application?

Have you heard of Mozilla's Prism, its the same exact concept that is shown in this build of safari.

[Renko31]

Google maps is much quicker, especially in satellite mode. Almost instantaneous.
I like the web app ability, but feel it should have a 'Go Home' option, as if you navigate away from the page you've saved, there is no easy way to get back apart from closing and opening the web app.

[Renko31]

Forgot to say, only thing that stops me from using Safari on a day to day basis currently is the lack of a drop down history of web site addresses typed in the address bar. Every other browser seems to have this and I use it as my main way of navigating to the sites I visit most. I'll try submitting feedback to Apple, again.

[MotleyPete]

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't dragging a link to your desktop, dock, etc. accomplish the same thing?

No. That would be just a link to Safari. Standalone web apps are like having other smaller browsers dedicated to individual tasks and separate from Safari (like a widget, or a Dashboard Clipping).

For example, you can have a web app available in all Spaces at once (maybe a web based music player or News feed) and at the same time make Safari available in only one Space. Or, have a web app for Google Spreadsheets, one that won't go down when Safari does if it decides to flip out. Stuff like that.

With Fluid (http://fluidapp.com/)you can go further and customize them a bit more, turn them into menulets, or use Coverflow in them. I like them as music/radio players (Last.fm, Muxtape, the BBC etc.), but whatever floats your boat.

[Renko31]

With Fluid (http://fluidapp.com/)you can go further and customize them a bit more, turn them into menulets, or use Coverflow in them. I like them as music/radio players (Last.fm, Muxtape, the BBC etc.), but whatever floats your boat.

Hi MotleyPete. If you are interested in the BBC radio output, might like the BBC listen again widget - Listen Again widget (http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/radio_podcasts/bbclistenagain.html)
It gives you access to the Live feeds as well as all the Listen Again archives.

[compuguy1088]

It is pretty stable, though at the moment, running the Safari 4 developer preview breaks the use of Adobe AIR apps....at least on Leopard.

[dbwie]

My .Mac photo gallery appears to load a lot quicker under Safari Preview 4.

[Iamtherealwoody]

I lost single window mode when I installed Safari 4 Developer Preview.
I had it working using this terminal command:
defaults write com.apple.Safari TargetedClicksCreateTabs -bool true
which doesn't work now. Anyone know how to enable this again?

[lostfan916]

I lost single window mode when I installed Safari 4 Developer Preview.
I had it working using this terminal command:
which doesn't work now. Anyone know how to enable this again?
I was SO disappointed by this... having everything in one window was so nice. I almost reverted back to my previous version, but decided just to command click the links till there's a fix... :rolleyes:

[MotleyPete]

Hi MotleyPete. If you are interested in the BBC radio output, might like the BBC listen again widget - Listen Again widget (http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/radio_podcasts/bbclistenagain.html)
It gives you access to the Live feeds as well as all the Listen Again archives.

Nice I'll, check it out.

Although that hot-rod-red has gotta go.

[GGJstudios]

I was SO disappointed by this... having everything in one window was so nice. I almost reverted back to my previous version, but decided just to command click the links till there's a fix... :rolleyes:

I've noticed this as well, especially with javascript links (which I HATE!) On some photo albums, when you click the thumbnail to see a larger image, Safari 3.1 would open the image in a new tab. Now it opens a new window, even if you Command-click. I hope someone finds a fix for this! What a pain if you want to review dozens of pics! I used to be able to just hold the Command key down and click dozens of thumbnails, then use Command-W to run through the images, closing each window after viewing. Not with Safari 4! Help!

[STEPHEN SNELL]

How do I get it for "Testing"?

[aaquib]

How do I get it for "Testing"?

Either become a free ADC member, or search "Safari 4" on a torrent site.

[Yvan256]

Awesome news that Safari 4 is already under development. I'm assuming it's competing with Firefox 3, which has shown amazing changes.

It's also competing with Opera, which just released Opera 9.5.

Good news is, they're all competing to get standards-compliant.

Except Internet Explorer, which always has to do it's "own thing" (though they are getting better, and I'm really glad for Microsoft's conditional comments).

[clevin]

Except Internet Explorer, which always has to do it's "own thing" (though they are getting better, and I'm really glad for Microsoft's conditional comments).

IE8 will be defaulting "standard mode", just not sure how standard it will be.;)

[James17]

Can anyone thats using it tell me if there is a "New Tab" button option within "Customize the toolbar"?

[GGJstudios]

New tab button:

http://hetima.com/safari/stand-e.html

.... or (I looked at this one, but didn't want to sacrifice my "new bookmark" button, which this replaces) ...

http://futurebuddha.net/newtabsafari/Safari_New_Tab.html

[Chairman Plow]

so does this mean Safari will be snappier? :D

Snappy my @**. It's still as sluggish as ever. Firefox for me, until further notice.

[GGJstudios]

Snappy my @**. It's still as sluggish as ever. Firefox for me, until further notice.

Mac Web Browser Showdown:

http://testmac.net/the-fastest-browsers-for-mac/

[James17]

New tab button:

http://hetima.com/safari/stand-e.html

.... or (I looked at this one, but didn't want to sacrifice my "new bookmark" button, which this replaces) ...

http://futurebuddha.net/newtabsafari/Safari_New_Tab.html

Thanks. I would prefer it if Apple included this feature as I am not keen on messing about with Safari with 3rd party stuff. I don't think it would take a lot of effort for a developer to include this feature.

[aaquib]

Snappy my @**. It's still as sluggish as ever. Firefox for me, until further notice.

To me the speeds of both Safari 3 and Safari 4(beta) feel exactly the same. Maybe Safari 4 is a bit snappier, but not significantly noticeable. The only concern is that Safari 4 takes up 200MB+ after being on for about 20 minutes.

[kabunaru]

I can't wait for Safari 4.
Should be worth the wait. :)

[Elven]

Using it myself, runs very nice, have reported a few crashes to Apple though, seems to have some issues downloading from various websites.

[James17]

To me the speeds of both Safari 3 and Safari 4(beta) feel exactly the same. Maybe Safari 4 is a bit snappier, but not significantly noticeable. The only concern is that Safari 4 takes up 200MB+ after being on for about 20 minutes.

Memory leak not fixed I suppose? I hope they fix it by its final release.

[GGJstudios]

I can't wait for Safari 4.
Should be worth the wait. :)

Why wait? I'm running Safari 4 now, as are many others.

[GGJstudios]

To me the speeds of both Safari 3 and Safari 4(beta) feel exactly the same. Maybe Safari 4 is a bit snappier, but not significantly noticeable. The only concern is that Safari 4 takes up 200MB+ after being on for about 20 minutes.

With 4GB of RAM, what's 200MB? It's a LOT less than I experienced with Firefox! With FF, I'd have to shut it down and restart it frequently, to force it to release resources. I can run Safari all day, with dozens of tabs open, and never have to restart it. It launches and opens pages significantly faster on my MBP. I do miss the add-ons and some features of FF, but as far as speed, Safari blows it away! I haven't noticed a measurable difference with Safari 4 yet, but both are extremely fast.

[pbbaker123]

Windows=FF
Mac=Safari
done.

[firstly]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple has started seeding developers with an early version of Safari 4 (5526.11.2). The releases comes amidst news of Apple's plans for Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/06/09snowleopard.html)) which will focus on performance and quality.

In their press release for Snow Leopard, Apple revealed that Snow Leopard includes Safari "with the fastest implementation of JavaScript ever, increasing performance by 53 percent, making Web 2.0 applications feel more responsive." Apple will reportedly accomplish this dramatic speedup with SquirrelFish technology (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/05/safari-to-get-javascript-speed-enhancements/) which is currently under development for Webkit. Snow Leopard is due for release in "about a year", though Safari 4 release could come much sooner and for existing operating systems. In fact, they are seeding versions specifically for Windows, Tiger and Leopard.

Apple's focus on high performance Javascript becomes obvious now that they have demoed the new web applications that come with MobileMe (http://www.apple.com/mobileme/) (Guided Tour (http://www.apple.com/mobileme/guidedtour/)). MobileMe provides web-applications for email, calendar and address book which were described as being as responsive as desktop-based applications.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/10/apple-seeds-safari-4-to-developers/)

I am happy to hear this news.
But I don't download it.
Because now my os is 10.4, yesterday I updated to 10. 4. 11,
the result was that the os was destroied and even couldn't enter the os.
But I still love Apple,
because when I sit in front of an apple computer,
I at once feel that computer is art,
however,
when I sit in front of a pc which's os is window,
I clearly feel that it is an only machine.

[dirani]

Try that under 10.6 and see what happens.

I'm just sayin.:)

I've passed the Acid3 test on Safari 4 for Tiger and Windows. Curiously, on Leopard I've got stuck in either 97 or 98, with it stopping after loading "15 of 22 items".

Weirdly, that was this morning. I've just repeated the test and Leopard got 100/100.

Leopard is very weird.