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jefhatfield
May 12, 2002, 08:49 PM
since so many of you are in middle school, junior high, high school, and college, do you think that private middle/high schools and private colleges are better all around than public middle/high schools and colleges?

does one get what they pay for?

do the upper middle class and rich have an unfair advantage?

whfsdude
May 12, 2002, 09:01 PM
Ok, I was born with dyslexia and guess what DC pay$ the school 32,000 a year for me to go there :) Guess what were still using 95 and 7.5 :( What a cheap school. Good thing our nice teacher has an iMac and iBook. :D

Btw those bastards never put me on the front page cuz I'm goth http://chelseaschool.edu/ send the hate malls please

macaddict123k
May 12, 2002, 09:06 PM
iIwent 2 prep/private k-8th grade. Now i go 2 public school,palm harbor univ.it is ranked 14th in the nation and i think it is better, way better. I live in a nice area and not many public schools are as nice. We have a huge mac network with airport and there are probobly 1500+ computers at our school. We have two ibook labs with about 40 ibooks each. Im a freshman and when i first started going here i was so flabergasted. :D

whfsdude
May 12, 2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by macaddict123k
iIwent 2 prep/private k-8th grade. Now i go 2 public school,palm harbor univ.it is ranked 14th in the nation and i think it is better, way better. I live in a nice area and not many public schools are as nice. We have a huge mac network with airport and there are probobly 1500+ computers at our school. We have two ibook labs with about 40 ibooks each. Im a freshman and when i first started going here i was so flabergasted. :D

oh god you are so lucky. If I went to your school and walked in the lab, I would nut in my pants so quickly :D

Rower_CPU
May 12, 2002, 09:47 PM
I went to public high school in Hawaii. It was a pretty large school, with 2000 or so students. It had good programs for academics and sports.

I took 5 AP classes, participated in high school sports, and other miscellaneous extracurriculars...

Not to be stereotypical or anything (;) ), but most of the private school kids I knew were complete d*cks. Stuck up, snobbish and completely self-centered.
I apologize if anyone here went to private school and feels differently about the students there.

I think that you get out of school what you put into it. There are programs to be taken advantage of at public schools that can put you on even footing with anything available in private schools...if you put forth the effort.

Mr. Anderson
May 12, 2002, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by jefhatfield
do the upper middle class and rich have an unfair advantage?
Knowing a little of your background from what you've posted online, I'm more interested in finding out from you why you asked this question. What precipitated a need to find out about possible discrepencies in the level of education offered in the two forms of education?

I'm a public school product, but its been so long, I don't know if I have any relevancy to the question at hand, so much has changed.

One thing I do know, from personal experience. Its not the school that matters, but the teachers and professors. In the few instances I've been lucky enough to have a teacher who has understood/worked/challenged me (and not only me, but all the students) I have excelled. Most of what we get out of our education has to be in thanks to the teachers.

jefhatfield
May 12, 2002, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet

Knowing a little of your background from what you've posted online, I'm more interested in finding out from you why you asked this question. What precipitated a need to find out about possible discrepencies in the level of education offered in the two forms of education?

I'm a public school product, but its been so long, I don't know if I have any relevancy to the question at hand, so much has changed.

One thing I do know, from personal experience. Its not the school that matters, but the teachers and professors. In the few instances I've been lucky enough to have a teacher who has understood/worked/challenged me (and not only me, but all the students) I have excelled. Most of what we get out of our education has to be in thanks to the teachers.

i teach as you know

and today, i received a newsletter from my old high school that says that we were in the top ten percent of our state in california

last i heard, we were ranked 49 and arkansas was ranked 50...he he

nobody, with the exception of 3 out of 220 in our class of 82, made it from our high school to an elite private institution (stanford, usc, boston university) and i think that is politics more than just test scores

the private school types from the same town i remembered in high school were kind of snobby from what i can recall like mentioned above

as a working adult later in life after one has got their foot in the door, what you do and how you do it makes the biggest difference of all in the long run

Mr. Anderson
May 12, 2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by jefhatfield
the private school types from the same town i remembered in high school were kind of snobby from what i can recall like mentioned above

as a working adult later in life after one has got their foot in the door, what you do and how you do it makes the biggest difference of all in the long run

Well, they pay all that extra money, so they have to have someone tell them they're special. Just because you have money, doesn't mean you're smart of gifted. Connections go a long way, but in my business a strong portfolio is the only thing thats going to get you a job. Have a proven track record and you're ok. Having Daddy introduce you will only get you so far.

jefhatfield
May 12, 2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet

I'm more interested in finding out from you why you asked this question. What precipitated a need to find out about possible discrepencies in the level of education offered in the two forms of education?


i am a minority and with the downturn in affirmative action in california, it is an issue i worry about for future students of all races

i am almost entirely a public school product myself and with the exception of california red tape and the "new math" of the 70s, i was pretty happy with the whole trip

jefhatfield
May 12, 2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


Well, they pay all that extra money, so they have to have someone tell them they're special. Just because you have money, doesn't mean you're smart of gifted. Connections go a long way, but in my business a strong portfolio is the only thing thats going to get you a job. Have a proven track record and you're ok. Having Daddy introduce you will only get you so far.

as an artist, your portfolio is more important that your resume and in some cases my artist wife never had to show her resume

inside connections work more for business and law and some highly placed local pros in business i know of got into daddy's firm, dentist office, or corporation

but i can't see knowing someone as a help for an artist...portfolio from what my wife told me is number one

she did go to a regionally famous art school for new york, school of visual arts, and that helped a lot in manhattan as did being from cooper union, pratt, parsons, or rhode island of design...these were the big five art schools in new york and nearby but they are largely unknown in california

so when she was here, her portfolio was everything...and also dressing appropriately didn't hurt at all;)

Beej
May 13, 2002, 01:30 AM
I was pulled out of a public school to complete the final to years of high school in a prestigious private school. I didn't want to leave my old school and I wasn't real happy at my new school. I'd have done a lot better if I'd just been allowed to stay at my old school.

Anyway, I got a high enough marks to get into the Uni course I wanted, so I guess that's the main thing at the end of the day...

cb911
May 13, 2002, 02:14 AM
i think that when still in school it doesn't matter that much. private and public make more of a difference when you start going to Uni etc.

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by cb911
i think that when still in school it doesn't matter that much. private and public make more of a difference when you start going to Uni etc.

private high schools get the nod with elite private colleges too much

but the university connection will affect getting and staying employed

where i live there are two basically equal schools, uc berkeley and stanford, and as a former hr professional, one almost always gets the red carpet while the other is lumped into one of those "public, yet decent schools"

so just because junior wore the red school colors of stanford vs. the blue ones of uc berkeley, there will be a twofold difference in average lifelong earning capability...that does not seem fair

i swear, the us is so friggin image consious...the first thing people worldwide will assume if you went to stanford is that you are the cream of the crop...but the only place where you will get that treatment at uc berkeley is within the confines of the campus

btw...did you know that berkeley has more nobel peace prize professors than any school in the us...nobody seems to notice that for instance...and berkeley is racially diverse with students from all socioeconomic backgrounds unlike stanford which is noticeably rich...even with the minorities

Ensign Paris
May 13, 2002, 08:19 AM
I have always been at what we call 'state schools' although out Private eduacation system is known as the 'public' one. wired england!

I have been at 2 normal schools (primany and secondary)

Ensign

jelloshotsrule
May 13, 2002, 08:29 AM
i pretty much went to catholic schools my whole life, with the exception of 2nd and 3rd grades in a public school on an army base in korea...

my experiences tell me a few things:

just as with all schools, certain ones excel. for instance, the school district in northern va (fairfax county) is supposedly very very good, and i went to grade school there, my brothers to all their school at some point or another there.

in northern new jersey, i went to a catholic high school, and let me just say it was a piece of cake. now, this could be biased coming from a generall intuitive person, i don't know if other people found it hard or what.. but i could do as little as possible to get by. therefore, i know it's all about teachers inspiring you to WANT to learn and do well. resources your school has and making use of them. my school didn't have jack squat. no audio video stuff, one art class, like 3 programming classes (basic, c++, and pascal)... it was pretty much a joke with computers. some windows machines, i don't know what kind.

however, there was a school nearby that was all boys and cost like 10 grand a year...a high school. with a big "campus" and such.. i think a lot of THOSE people would be the snobby, rich kids. while my school did cost (something like 4000/year), there were scholarships that weren't really hard to get, and other sorts of things, so while we had plenty of rich jackasses, we also had some poor folks.

not sure where i'm going with this really... but now. i go to nyu. a private rich freaking university. from what i can see, they could stand to spend a lot more on the kids and technology and that sort of thing. sure, we have a lab full of dual 533's and 17" flat screens, but then there's the sgi lab full of 7 computers that are 5 or so years old. doing hard core 3D on that is painful often....

who daddy knows is a lot. also, sports stars get a lot of perks. my brother was a freaking nerd to the highest degree. aced his sat's, 2nd in his class, just naturally really really smart. and he didn't get into princeton. got wait listed at cornell... i mean come on now. my friend was a female soccer star, smart, but not THAT smart. she got right into princeton, probably for free.

portfolio is a lot for artists, the highest thing yeah. but there's still plenty of who you know to be had i'm sure. probably more important when you get higher up and perhaps into the more hollywood side of graphics/art. but there are definitely times/places when who you know will help you out a great deal...

uggh, that's long. sorry. :)

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 08:35 AM
and bears college guide in the usa has a little intro about england being diff than usa

besides driving on other side of road and having better rock bands, the uk calls its five year bachelor level doctors the title of "doctor" and the more highly trained eight year MDs the title of "mister"

that sounds so strange to me

but there were no european settlers here in the usa when england was up and running with major cities and institutions hundreds of years prior to george washington so maybe the usa has it all backwards

i miss london, went to university there in south kensington and met older woman...he he...a blond woman from yorkshire

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


who daddy knows is a lot. also, sports stars get a lot of perks. my brother was a freaking nerd to the highest degree. aced his sat's, 2nd in his class, just naturally really really smart. and he didn't get into princeton. got wait listed at cornell... i mean come on now. my friend was a female soccer star, smart, but not THAT smart. she got right into princeton, probably for free.

portfolio is a lot for artists, the highest thing yeah. but there's still plenty of who you know to be had i'm sure. probably more important when you get higher up and perhaps into the more hollywood side of graphics/art. but there are definitely times/places when who you know will help you out a great deal...

uggh, that's long. sorry. :)

with some schools, the sports stars, if good, can get a degree and darn near be illiterate but sports brings big bucks into the school, especially since the atheletes are not paid...ok, some kids get cars and prostitutes but with new strict laws, they never see cash

if they did see cash, i would shed fifty pounds, change my name to regain undergraduate eligibility, and start shooing hoops...he he

why not give a football degree or basketball degree to those exceptionally gifted atheletes that are academically challenged...most often these illeterate athletes, many of whom i knew as otherwise decent people, are given 'business' degrees

having worked for my business degree and owning two businesses myself, that is stupid

should some seven foot forward who cant read past the third grade be given the same degree as me who got a really high sat?

the usa should institute sports degrees and leave the other degrees to the people who really need them

there are still many smart jocks though, but there are still tens of thousands of sports people who get into us schools who got the nod over someone like your brother who worked his tail off but doesn't happen to be a female who can blast a round ball into the net more times than him:p

sjs
May 13, 2002, 09:08 AM
jefhatfield, I have been out of college even longer than you, but we've both probably learned the same thing: the biggest difference resulting from where you go to school isn't the education...its the network you get plugged into.

Your school has a network of alumni or people who feel a fondness for your school who will be able to open doors and give you opportunities in the future. The importance of the network will make more of a difference in your life than the actual quality of the education.

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by sjs
jefhatfield, I have been out of college even longer than you, but we've both probably learned the same thing: the biggest difference resulting from where you go to school isn't the education...its the network you get plugged into.

Your school has a network of alumni or people who feel a fondness for your school who will be able to open doors and give you opportunities in the future. The importance of the network will make more of a difference in your life than the actual quality of the education.

so true

networks are despised at uc berkeley and thus the lowest giving rate in the united states...i talked to their alums officer on campus and he said it was a shame...yeah everybody wants to change the world at uc berkeley but individually, the great majority of these uc berkeley students will not put their money where their mouth is

but the equally comparable stanford has alumni connections and money up the yazoo...notice that clinton sent his daughter to stanford instead of cal

if chelsea clinton ever decides to enter politics, her stanford connections will play a huge role like her washington dc connections

in southern california, the unversity of southern california is the powerhouse of rich connected academia...this will get me killed, he he, but the public university ucla is actually a better school by far...but don't expect any real connections there however

snobs may be annoying, but in life, unless you have a few of those yacht clubbing, private golf clubbing, chardonnay sipping yuppies on your side, things are darn near impossible to get done

unemployed snobs usually get on all the political positions and commissions and wield more power than their working counterparts

my god man, are you really older than me and one of those two mythical forty something posters i have seen since the inception of macrumors?

do you get a lot of span from pfitzer with viagra like me? they spam me everyday...my problem is not the plumbing (yet) but unwillingness to use it:D

eyelikeart
May 13, 2002, 11:03 AM
I went to a private school as a kid...and went to a Catholic high school...

I will say that as far as public education goes...if I end up living in New Orleans for the rest of my life...my children will not go to a public school here...we have nearly the lowest public education ratings in the country!!

I have heard good things about public schools in other cities around the country....but here they are terrible...

since I've been in private institutions up to college...I'm all for them...

but I don't think it necessarily says there's a better education available for them generally....just in the case of New Orleans...

From what I have heard from others...public schools elsewhere offer things that the private schools here won't even think of...real life classes...work study...etc...etc...

sorry for my jumping in on this late...I was kinda busy all weekend... ;)

macktheknife
May 13, 2002, 12:05 PM
jethatfield, I'll add something to your comments concerning UC Berkeley. As a Cal graduate (class of 2000), I must say that the reason why many alumni (except for the pre-WW II generation) shy away from giving back to their school is that many of us have no pride or happy memories invested in Cal.

After all, what type of community does Cal foster? As a freshman you're thrown into these dorms that resemble housing projects dispersed throughout the city, unlike other universities where housing are clustered together and on campus. Once you're a sophomore, you're out on your own to find housing, and that's when the community really disappears since students plug themselves into these ghetto and decrepit apartments with anonymous neighbors while paying exorbitant rents.

And what about the city itself? Berkeley's City Council spends more time passing non-binding and useless resolutions condemning everything in the world while letting problems that is under their jurisdiction (i.e. homelessness, parking, etc.) fester out of control. Take a quick stroll through Berkeley and you will see the failure of left-wing radicalism. What’s there to be proud of when you have perfectly able-minded and able-bodied vagrants (an out-of-fashion word nowadays) bumming you for money or cigarettes and berating you when you politely say “no” in order to keep your hard-earned money?

I myself got a great education at Cal, and I earnestly believe that Berkeley's academic curriculum is top-notch. However, the left-wing slant that pervades many of the school’s department fosters cynicism and a warped view of how the world works. We have graduates coming out of the Ethnic Studies department completely unprepared for the job market who, growing frustrated that their education means little in the workplace, turn around and blame The System for their woes.

My point is this: If you want alumni to open their wallets, give them a reason to do so and prepare them for the workplace so that they will have the means to do so. A visit to Berkeley’s counterpart down south, and one can see why UCLA graduates will be happy to put their money back to their school. It is also a wonderful academic center minus the left-wing garbage in a wonderful and exciting environment.

sjs
May 13, 2002, 12:10 PM
Yes I am one of those mythical 40 somethings (mid-40s) and yes I get some stuff from Viagra. In fact a doctor friend gave me a sample a couple of years ago for "fun" but i've never had the courage to try it...afraid of some weird side effect.

Here in GA we have two very fine universities: UGA and Ga Tech. They are both good, but Tech is better. However, if you want to compare networks its UGA, hands-down. Business, politics, judgeships, you name it. But the ultimate network is found in the Ivy League; probably Harvard for business and Yale for politics. I think more US Presidents have come from Yale by far than any other schools..

Other than your school, the other great network institution is your "bank account". The monied hang with the monied and therein lie the opportunities.

I don't think its unfair...its just the way it is. IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEM at a young enough age, you can break in...by going to the right schools, cultivating your friendships within the right networks, making a few millions, then following the rules of the club. I am kind of on the periphery of that network...I know the right people, make a decent income, etc. but my Chrisitian faith puts me in a different "club". So thats ok, I really try to see the best in everyone, including the rich!

GeeYouEye
May 13, 2002, 12:38 PM
I'll tell you one thing. At least in CA, private school is definitely worth it. We're ranked something like 49/50, (look out North Carolina :)) When the public high schools are so underfunded and mismanaged that there is an average of 0.3 computers per classroom (actually 6 in one room, 12 in another, and none more powerful than a 486, most ~286)yet those that do exist are on a T1 line shared with the local middle schools (almost no computers there) and you have to pay for EVERYTHING except tuition (even textbooks that you don't keep), then you realize that public school, esecially around here is not everything it's cracked up to be.

kishba
May 13, 2002, 01:16 PM
i attend a public school in michigan and love it

i can't see myself attending a private school at all. in our city public schools are way better than private schools (our city is made of many rich people)

school vouchers is becoming an increasingly large issue at school and my teachers are definitely causing me to agree with them... i just love public schools and don't want to see funding disappearing from the public schools for the private ones

by the way... i'm back from chicago and am victorious! i was in a national competition (Business Professionals of America) and our Web Design Team took 1st place!!

i've got sooo much to catch up on... i was gone for a week and the front page of macrumors has changed dramatically!

mcrain
May 13, 2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by jefhatfield
do the upper middle class and rich have an unfair advantage?

Did you see Macaddict123k's signature?? Nuff said.

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Originally posted by jefhatfield
i am a minority and with the downturn in affirmative action in california, it is an issue i worry about for future students of all races

I thought you were Asian. If so, you and I have an interesting conversation in the works...

Originally posted by kisba
i attend a public school in michigan and love it

I went to public school grade and high schools, then U of Michigan, then U of Illinois. All public schools. All very fine schools. The problem today with schools is pretty simple. Dumb teachers teaching classrooms diluted with dumb students.

If you want to teach geniuses, you put a genius in the front of the classroom, and you prevent the disruption of fools by putting them all together in another classroom.

No offense to the teachers we have here, but, when my senior high school chemistry teacher knew less chemistry than me, I knew there was a problem. When I realized she was the teacher and not me because she had a teaching degree, I realized the root of the problem. When I saw that no chemist in his/her right mind would teach due to the salaries teachers earn, I found what I believe to be the cure for the problem. (Pay teachers what they are worth - not $35,000 a year, more like $75,000 a year to start or more)

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by mcrain



I thought you were Asian. If so, you and I have an interesting conversation in the works...



I went to public school grade and high schools, then U of Michigan, then U of Illinois. All public schools. All very fine schools. The problem today with schools is pretty simple. Dumb teachers teaching classrooms diluted with dumb students.

If you want to teach geniuses, you put a genius in the front of the classroom, and you prevent the disruption of fools by putting them all together in another classroom.

No offense to the teachers we have here, but, when my senior high school chemistry teacher knew less chemistry than me, I knew there was a problem. When I realized she was the teacher and not me because she had a teaching degree, I realized the root of the problem. When I saw that no chemist in his/her right mind would teach due to the salaries teachers earn, I found what I believe to be the cure for the problem. (Pay teachers what they are worth - not $35,000 a year, more like $75,000 a year to start or more)

ah, mcrain a fellow moderate or should i say, even a liberal

affirmative action hurts the asians but helps all other minorities...in my book, i want to help ALL minorities

i am a product fo public elementary, middle, high schools, junior college, sonoma state, and cal poly state unive, san luis obispo with some private college schooling tossed in

i agree 100 percent...get the best teachers and pay them MORE

right on!

and concerning the other posters gripes about berkeley, i know those are problems since i was offered a teaching job for the university of california...the lower middle class and poor still need a college option and university of california and california state universities is all we have in the beach volleyball state

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 02:38 PM
oh me geesh

dija see me spelling on the last post

it's almost as bad as "you know who"

he he:cool:

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by jefhatfield


ah, mcrain a fellow moderate or should i say, even a liberal

affirmative action hurts the asians but helps all other minorities...in my book, i want to help ALL minorities




yeah i am a bleeding heart..i. voted for gore, too

i live in a town that had real estate agents that would not sell to blacks, asians, or hispanics thirty years ago

they also would not sell to irish, italian, or anybody "catholic"

it was strictly a country club prebyterian episcopalian methodist "mayflower" set of west londoners or the descendents thereof

i think some asians who don't like affirmative action because it currently is not in their favor are being short-sighted in their perception of history

we had rich farmers here who fought against cesar chavez and while they are worth millions, they have illegal aliens they employ and often abuse

sure liberalism can get dysfunctional like the above berkeley alumni mentioned, but the last fifty years have been shaped by often liberal mindsets and many have benefited

macktheknife
May 13, 2002, 03:14 PM
Liberalism is the partly defined by the word it contains: Liberty. A philosophy that emerged during the Enlightenment, Liberalism stressed equality for all and removal of government restrictions on human activity, an affirmation that man should best decide his destiny.

If you have read this far, you should realize that what we associate with liberalism has little to do with the word's original meaning. Today, the liberalism espoused by left-wing radicals borders on socialism of sorts: a belief that society can tax its way to prosperity, distrust of businesses but full faith in government bureaucracies, and that the failures of individuals (homeless, criminals, etc.) can be fully attributed to society.

I consider myself a liberal in the original sense, and I am as willing as the next guy to punish racists and corrupt officials and businessmen. I believe that we should invest heavily in education instead of handing big tax breaks to big agribusinesses (thanks alot, Mr. President). However, bleeding heart liberals of today (not singling you out, jethatfield!) should really reconsider their positions in light of the failures of command economies and the frustration of the European welfare states to bring prosperity to their people despite all their good intentions.

Here are some readings that I recommend:

"The Nature of Man" in Michael Jensen's "Foundations of Organizational Strategy"

"The Commanding Heights" by Daniel Yergin, Joseph Stanislaw

"The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand

"Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine" by Jasper Becker

"Valuation" by McKinsey & Company

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by macktheknife
Liberalism is the partly defined by the word it contains: Liberty. A philosophy that emerged during the Enlightenment, Liberalism stressed equality for all and removal of government restrictions on human activity, an affirmation that man should best decide his destiny.

If you have read this far, you should realize that what we associate with liberalism has little to do with the word's original meaning. Today, the liberalism espoused by left-wing radicals borders on socialism of sorts: a belief that society can tax its way to prosperity, distrust of businesses but full faith in government bureaucracies, and that the failures of individuals (homeless, criminals, etc.) can be fully attributed to society.

I consider myself a liberal in the original sense, and I am as willing as the next guy to punish racists and corrupt officials and businessmen. I believe that we should invest heavily in education instead of handing big tax breaks to big agribusinesses (thanks alot, Mr. President). However, bleeding heart liberals of today (not singling you out, jethatfield!) should really reconsider their positions in light of the failures of command economies and the frustration of the European welfare states to bring prosperity to their people despite all their good intentions.

Here are some readings that I recommend:

"The Nature of Man" in Michael Jensen's "Foundations of Organizational Strategy"

"The Commanding Heights" by Daniel Yergin, Joseph Stanislaw

"The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand

"Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine" by Jasper Becker

"Valuation" by McKinsey & Company

original definitions from 225 years ago do not hold up to well today as you know

at one time the liberal party were the republicans

fountainhead is a great movie

both parties have become intrusive in our lives but we are in the information age...i do like the liberal wing of the libertarian party but they don't stand a chance at office as of now

now if the tables were turned i may have voted differently:D

mcrain
May 13, 2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by jefhatfield
ah, mcrain a fellow moderate or should i say, even a liberal

affirmative action hurts the asians but helps all other minorities...in my book, i want to help ALL minorities

i agree 100 percent...get the best teachers and pay them MORE

right on!


You DAMN right! Stop this lunacy of paying administrators tons of money to manage huge bank accounts to build new buildings and buy new books, and put the money where it counts.

How many times have you in your life seen early retirement plans to rid our schools of older, experienced teachers because they were too expensive, so they could be replaced with some pimple faced brat straight out of ed school (probably not much older than mactheknife).

When was the last time you ran across a teacher with a real degree and/or real experience? I'm sure there are some, but shouldn't that be the norm, not the exception.

Oh, mac, let me throw down the gauntlet. Everything you say about the government being intrusive and, well, let me quote... is wrong.

Originally posted by mactheknife
Today, the liberalism espoused by left-wing radicals borders on socialism of sorts: a belief that society can tax its way to prosperity, distrust of businesses but full faith in government bureaucracies, and that the failures of individuals (homeless, criminals, etc.) can be fully attributed to society.

I consider myself a liberal in the original sense, and I am as willing as the next guy to punish racists and corrupt officials and businessmen. I believe that we should invest heavily in education instead of handing big tax breaks to big agribusinesses (thanks alot, Mr. President). However, bleeding heart liberals of today (not singling you out, jethatfield!) should really reconsider their positions in light of the failures of command economies and the frustration of the European welfare states to bring prosperity to their people despite all their good intentions.


You seem to be hell-bent on on telling me, and anyone who might listen that taxation is bad, and somehow the government helping someone is the government's attempt to bring prosperity to everyone. That's a load of cr*p.

I'm not suggesting that socialism or communism or a welfare state is a solution for anything (other than maybe a boring poly-sci lecture), but, I am suggesting that big business does not make money by preventing people from starving to death. Big business doesn't make money off people driving on safe roads. Big business doesn't make money getting people jobs, or even paying people high wages.

Big business makes money by making products or services that they sell. Nothing more.

So, what do we do about all the starving, unemployed failures standing by the side of the crumbling road? Well, according to you, we should get government out of our lives and let big business take care of them, because, somehow, big business will come up with a way to make money off of helping our fellow man.

Yeah, sure, and the G6 is being released tomorrow too.

Government, in the "evil-liberal" mind isn't a free for everyone utopia (btw, dinotopia sucked). I, along with most "evil-liberals" see government as the only method for doing the things that we can not do for ourselves, and those things that businesses don't or shouldn't do.

Let's see here. Examples. Feeding the poor. Certainly, if you have a Peanut butter sandwich already, it is easy to say that giving one to a starving person is intrusive, but if you are starving, it is a blessing, and unfortunately, only government or charity (which really requires government assistance - can you say deduction dipsh*t?) provide food.

Roads? Business is only interested in roads because government pays them to be. When was the last time a small-medium business rebuilt a county road? It doesn't happen. What happens is the business complains to the local government to get it done (at the taxpayer's cost).

I'll tell you what. You give it your best shot. Bring on whatever you read most recently, and we'll just see how it applies to the real world.

Oh, and anytime you want to throw out the old "get government out of our lives" routine, you better be ready to answer the questions: who's going to build the roads, who's going to feed the starving, who's going to make sure we have farmers to feed us, who's going to pay the cops, who's going to provide fire protection, who's going to educate your kids?

Liberals typically want more and better services while conservatives want limits. A good balance between the two is absolutely necessary, and anyone (myself included) who thinks one side is right (absolutely right) and the other side is wrong, needs an enema.

macktheknife
May 13, 2002, 05:31 PM
mcrain: I believe you misunderstand my position. Notice that nowhere did I say "get government out of our lives" or espouse a government-free society or economy. I believe that government has a place in promoting education (which I mentioned in my post), building infrastructure (since public infrastructure is a public good), and enforcing law and order. Taxes are a necessity, and I believe that we should maintain our system of progressive taxation (i.e. rich pay more and not that Steve Forbes flat-tax crap). Heck, I even believe that it government subsidized art and music (via the National Endownment for the Arts) has its place. :D

So no, I don't believe in a government-free society like some rabid right-winger. I just believe in defining the government's role in society more sensibly, and that government assistance is not the only path towards prosperity since government regulations and subsidies cause unintended adverse distortions in the economy.

BTW, here is my proposal to help reform our schools. First, recognize that teaching is currently a stressful but financially unrewarding job. Pay teachers a heck of a lot more than the minimum wage-like salaries they're currently getting. I have friends who are intelligent and idealistic young teachers who are working their butts off from 8AM to 9PM (since they have to prepare for the next day's lesson) for less than $35k a year. Yes, this will involve more taxes, but it'll probably be money well spent. I'd rather teachers get more money than big agribusinesses and other special interest groups. Second, understand where the money is going, since throwing more money into the pot without oversight is a recipe for disaster. Third, make the school day and year longer. Our currently school schedule is a legacy of America's rural society when the kids needed to be home by 3 to milk the cows for supper or harvest the crops during the summer (slight sarcasm intended). Kids cannot be expected to learn subjects in 50-minute bursts. Fourth, institute a system of school uniforms to remove the superficial distractions (designer clothes, etc) that our consumer-centric society encourages to instill greater discipline.

I guess it's rather silly that we should make this Macrumors forum an arena for school reform discussions, but heck, there's more to life than speculating when the G5 will be released, right? :p

jefhatfield
May 13, 2002, 08:16 PM
good points fellas

this liberal agrees...better wages for teachers

and have bill gates build the roads...with a shovel;)