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View Full Version : MacWorld San Francisco Xserve, LCD, PowerMac Updates?


MacRumors
Dec 3, 2003, 08:21 PM
With MacWorld San Francisco 2004 coming in about one month, expectations are starting to build.

While Expos have become de-emphasized by Apple as venues for product releases, based on product timeframes a few Apple products do appear to be due for revision.

Xserve

Apple's server solution, the Xserve, is stalled at Dual 1.33GHz G4s which were introduced in February 2003 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/02/20030210085916.shtml). While G5 Xserves updates were described as "imminent" by Appleinsider (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031007001126.shtml) in October 2003, subsequent reports (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031104134024.shtml) claimed that G5 Xserves were still months away. ThinkSecret adds that a 3U formfactor (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031021120421.shtml) is under consideration for the new Xserves.

LCDs

After initial expectations (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031008143622.shtml) of a 30" Apple LCD and redesigned screens, more recent rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/12/20031202133443.shtml) claim that LCD updates have been pushed later. Unconfirmed hints told to MacRumors, however, have suggested that Apple LCDs should see revisions at MacWorld SF.

PowerMacs

Apple made a remarkable leap forward (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030623171845.shtml) with the introduction of the 2.0GHz PowerMac G5 in June 2003. With it came promises of 3.0GHz PowerMacs within one year's time. Apple made a surprise introduction in November of the Dual 1.8GHz PowerMac (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031118083735.shtml) but left the high-end PowerMac untouched... leaving January updates unclear.

Most recent rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031112123844.shtml), however, still suggest that PowerMacs will see updates in January, possibly bringing significant speed bumps.

Other?

Of interest, Jan, 2004 marks the 20th anniversary of the Macintosh. And there is always hope for the unexpected: Cube? (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031112032413.shtml), Tablet? (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031126154726.shtml), PDA? (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031110094440.shtml)

Freg3000
Dec 3, 2003, 08:25 PM
T-35 days (or so).......

Very excited. 2 weeks after the first Christmas, a second one comes.....Apple style!
:D

Ruthless
Dec 3, 2003, 08:25 PM
the lcds should be really cool i;m pretty excited about that..hopefully they bring out a 30 and discontinue the 17" making the 20" cheaper. Dont know about the powermacs...seems to me they are updating them too often.

yoman
Dec 3, 2003, 08:25 PM
Please Apple just blow us away with your offerings!!

ZildjianKX
Dec 3, 2003, 08:26 PM
Bring on the speedbubmps so the DP 2.0 owners can feel like the SP 1.8 owners :)

Be prepared to have a 2 month wait to get your powermac though...

Photorun
Dec 3, 2003, 08:33 PM
2.2, 2.0 MPs and 1.8 SP at $2000 or less? Wouldn't shock me, but boy will there be a lot of bummed out G5 early adopters. Enh, progress, what can you do.

gwuMACaddict
Dec 3, 2003, 08:34 PM
sounds good... i'll have a little christmas money... i'd love to give to steve-o in exchange for a tasty new g5

coumerelli
Dec 3, 2003, 08:36 PM
I don't think it's any less than fact that the G5 PowerMacs will be updated, the speculation will be in the how. I...can't.....wait! woohoo! :D

yoman
Dec 3, 2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Photorun
2.2, 2.0 MPs and 1.8 SP at $2000 or less? Wouldn't shock me, but boy will there be a lot of bummed out G5 early adopters. Enh, progress, what can you do.

maybe they could be 2.5,2.0,1.8MPs (1.8MP at $2000 ) that would be sweet.

Macmaniac
Dec 3, 2003, 08:38 PM
Apple really needs to update their servers, if they want to remain competitive in IT they need to put the G5 in the X Serve.
Even if they have to go to a bigger form factor it would be worth it.
Hey and if a University could buy 10 racks of G5 X Serves they would have themselves a nice supercomputer:)

mystixman
Dec 3, 2003, 08:38 PM
Think anything new will come out?

hokka
Dec 3, 2003, 08:42 PM
I believe Apple will update the iPod line with new and cheaper line in Jan, why? with all the promotion with Pepsi and MacDonalds I don't think the current iPod owner would be whom they are targeting...

think about it, majority of people who can afford to buy the current iPods wouldn't go to a MacDonalds or maybe even drink fizzy drinks, they have to release a much cheaper version to make the whole npromotion worth while (think kids)... the rest is for you to dream up what they'd do.

Would you not agree?

MattG
Dec 3, 2003, 08:45 PM
30" LCD would be the s*it.

If they were to release a 30" and maybe (pleeaaaassse?) drop the price of the 23", I might be forced to sell my 19" Samsung on eBay and buy a 23".

Photorun
Dec 3, 2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by yoman
maybe they could be 2.5,2.0,1.8MPs (1.8MP at $2000 ) that would be sweet.
I think a question I have is someone said somewhere that the GHz speed has to be relative to the bus but certain chip speeds could not occur, like 2.33 GHz, there's some intergeral qualifier rigamaroll so half bus would be more of based on the GHz at an even number. Point being would 2.5 be feasable with 1.25 bus or would it have to be 2.4 GHz with 1.2 GHz bus or 2.6 GHz with 1.3 bus? What's the jumping points on the chip speed? Just don't make my 1.8 G5 DP TOO obsolute, then I'd be blue, but I understand, progress is progress. If Apple could release a 3.0 G5 DP machine that'd spank the tar out of a WIntel I'd be all for it, even better, price that sucker under three grand, that'd shut the peecee weinies pie holes!

dongmin
Dec 3, 2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Photorun
2.2, 2.0 MPs and 1.8 SP at $2000 or less? Wouldn't shock me, but boy will there be a lot of bummed out G5 early adopters. Enh, progress, what can you do. dude man, you're being overly conservative; we need to get to 3.0 ghz in two stops. Try dual 2.5-2.6 ghz for the top, dual 2.2 ghz for the middle, and maybe a single 2.0 for the entry--for $1599.

new displays, check

G5 iMacs (i.e. The Revenge of the Cube)??? Now that would bring the house down.

Isn't it about time for a new iThingy? When did the iSight come out?

Ja Di ksw
Dec 3, 2003, 08:48 PM
Xserves need an update, badly, but that's not news. I'm more interested in Powerbooks. I put off getting one a month or so ago in case they come out with more speed at this Expo. Doubt it will happen, but I knew something come out if I did buy one.

here's the hoping the Powermac upgrades have large speed boosts

swissmann
Dec 3, 2003, 09:02 PM
I personally think Steve is going to ride on the promise of 3 GHz in a year and we will wait until then for speed boosts. I wish monitors would be announced now so I can buy one as a tax deduction pre end of the year. Something new would be nice. I also won't buy an iPod until it is either under $100 or is more like a smart phone. Xserve needs an update badly. If the cube came back even in G4 form factor and was cheaper than an eMac (no monitor) it would sell very well I think. It would also get a lot of talk.

yoman
Dec 3, 2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by powerjack in an apple insider forum
Apple's I.D. people are committed to having the same relative bezel width on all of the display line. And, the LG panel on the 23" unit is quite wide at the edges, requiring the current wide bezel. The older 17" panel has the same problem. The newer 20.1" Chi Mei panel could have an enclosure bezel less than half as wide as it now has, but it's been built artificially widened just to match the cosmetics of the other two displays.

Apple has been working with both LG and Chi Mei for well over a year to develop a narrow bezel panel in the 23-inch range, and with Chi Mei to develop a narrow bezel panel at the 30-inch size. Also, Apple's team doesn't want to bring the 30-incher to market until the MSRP can be hauled down to under $3500. These are the factors driving the ongoing display redesign effort.

Progress to date?

There is a 17.1" Chi Mei 16:10 wide aspect ratio panel already in production, for Apple. It has a narrow bezel, and is being built under contract for Apple. This means that the 17-inch Studio Display has really been possible to replace for a couple of months. But, it hasn't been, because Apple doesn't want to offer one narow bezel display, and still have the wide bezel design on the others.

A new enclosure for the 20-incher has been ready for some time, as well, one with a narrow bezel to match the new 17-inch Cinema Display design. Again... not yet offered, to avoid mixing the look of the overall product line.

The sticking points in the process have been (A) getting a narrow bezel 23-inch panel ready, and (B) getting the cost of the 30-inch panel down to where Apple wants it.

The 23-inch panel issue is solved, as LG has recently taken a narrow bezel 23-inch panel to production, and Apple has completed the enclosure design. It should be ready to market by January.

Chi Mei has recently agreed to meet Apple's price point on the 30-incher, and that enclosure has been ready for over two-months.

So, finally, there are no impediments at play to Apple releasing a completely new display line in January, and for all four new displays to be narow bezel, 16:10 widescreen designs. They will *not* be in metal or "metal look" housings, but will be very nicely done reworks of the clear acrylic theme. They *will* have industry standard VESA mounting patterns on their backs and will ship on a removable base, so that standard mounting arms can be used. And, they will be nearly half the present weights... much, much lighter.


Sounds interesting I don't know if this guy is for real but he seems to know what he's talking about. Hmmmm...

Gyroscope
Dec 3, 2003, 09:08 PM
I tought that Apple backed away from announcing any new products at Apple Expos as it kills sales of existing hardware.

RalphNumbers
Dec 3, 2003, 09:12 PM
That 3U XServe is such a lousy idea. Rack computing is all about density these days, Even 1U units are being phased out in favor of blades in alot of places. A 3U unit is just *way* too big.

And there's no reason it should have to be that big either. There are blades and 1U servers with intel chips that run significantly hotter than the G5, not to mention IBM's upcoming PPC970 blades...

I can't see Apple going any bigger than the current 1U for future XServes.

yoman
Dec 3, 2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Gyroscope
I tought that Apple backed away from announcing any new products at Apple Expos as it kills sales of existing hardware.

But isn't it like an Anniversary 20th I believe of the Macintosh computer. correct me if I'm wrong anybody.

QCassidy352
Dec 3, 2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Gyroscope
I tought that Apple backed away from announcing any new products at Apple Expos as it kills sales of existing hardware.

as of when? WWDC announced the G5.

x86isslow
Dec 3, 2003, 09:20 PM
to yoman
macintosh was rolled out in 1984, with, of course, the famous Superbowl ad.
makes you wonder if they'll release any special epcot-style future-tech packed over-priced gizmo in commemoration of it.

arn
Dec 3, 2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by yoman
Sounds interesting I don't know if this guy is for real but he seems to know what he's talking about. Hmmmm...

PowerJack is the MacWhispers guy, for what it's worth.

arn

itsbetteronamac
Dec 3, 2003, 09:24 PM
Well apple will release a updated powermac (highend), I think we all know that. The early adopters of the G5 2.0GHz will of course be sad that they spent all that money and no longer have the fastest machine, even though they have only had it a few monthes. This is why it's always iffy to buy the first one of a new powermac.

Well to all you g5 users, I envy you, I am in a g4 world.

QuiteSure
Dec 3, 2003, 09:36 PM
I don't think Steve will release a 20th Anniv. Mac. Kind of cheesy, and not especially cool.

dongmin
Dec 3, 2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by yoman
Sounds interesting I don't know if this guy is for real but he seems to know what he's talking about. Hmmmm... he's not for real, and he has no clue what he's talking about.

he's famous in mac rumor land for running shady online businesses and cooking up highly-detailed but completed-off-the-mark reports from his manufacturing 'sources.'

Gyroscope
Dec 3, 2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
as of when? WWDC announced the G5.


Yeah dude WWDC is not an EXPO! Also think that was an exception to the rule,while they were desperate to generate as much interest as possible by announcing it at conference.Lets be honest here. At that point there were almost no G4 sales to kill while it was selling miserably anyway.


Regards

Gyroscope
Dec 3, 2003, 09:46 PM
I think its still possible to see some new (i)gadget, new/updated software and possibly new iMac. PowerMacs will be updated in mid-late Feb.

x86isslow
Dec 3, 2003, 09:54 PM
i remember reading that a new wave of syncable phones and such would be hitting shelves here soon, maybe isync?

also, we'll probably see some 3rd party stuff.. like less squirrel ;) and more sightlight.

i doubt january for g5 imacs because of the new 20". maybe in time for wwdc, we'll get 1.6 into the imac.

MrSmith
Dec 3, 2003, 09:59 PM
There must be other people like me for whom a PowerMac is overkill and who don't want an iMac for whatever reason (in my case even a 10-inch footprint is too much for my little workspace - I need a stand-alone screen). Basically there isn't a machine for me right now. Well, why not fill the gap and give us an iMac (preferably expandable to more than 1 gig) with a DETACHABLE screen. Either you can stick it in the box like the present iMac, or separate it and run a cable between them. Easy enough to reach the CD/DVD tray in something the size of a Cube under my desk.

Just an idea...

~Shard~
Dec 3, 2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by hokka
I believe Apple will update the iPod line with new and cheaper line in Jan, why? with all the promotion with Pepsi and MacDonalds I don't think the current iPod owner would be whom they are targeting...

think about it, majority of people who can afford to buy the current iPods wouldn't go to a MacDonalds or maybe even drink fizzy drinks, they have to release a much cheaper version to make the whole npromotion worth while (think kids)... the rest is for you to dream up what they'd do.

Would you not agree?

I'd like to see this as well, but I honestly do not know how likely it is. As this article states, and as I've been saying for quite a while now, it is truly the xServes, LCDs and PMs that should be updgraded next, and I simply don't know how many updates Jobs will release all at once. As a result, I'd have to say no to the iPods for now, but I guess only time will tell! Same goes with the G5 iMacs - I don't see those coming until spring at the earliest - Apple may even release one more speed bump (1.33, 1.42 GHz G4) before the G5 iMac...

ffakr
Dec 3, 2003, 10:03 PM
Apple is offering xServes and xServers with xRAID for discounts right now. I was told $600 to $1000 off (though these are NOT default, minimum configs).
Sale runs till mid December. This could be a clearing of stock, but they've offered xServe deals in the past without an update (they were offering deals on purchases of 4 or more xServes a few months ago)

~Shard~
Dec 3, 2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by ffakr
Apple is offering xServes and xServers with xRAID for discounts right now. I was told $600 to $1000 off (though these are NOT default, minimum configs).
Sale runs till mid December. This could be a clearing of stock, but they've offered xServe deals in the past without an update (they were offering deals on purchases of 4 or more xServes a few months ago)

Sounds about right to me - clear the stock out! Out with the old, in with the new G5s for MWSF. :cool:

~Shard~
Dec 3, 2003, 10:08 PM
I think one thing is for sure, the xServes will be updated to G5s. It has been a whole year since the G4 xServes came out, and Apple really needs to stay current with this product if it wants to remain competitive in the IT industry. Frequent updating of all the pro and cosumer lines is excellent, don't get me wrong, but Apple can't forget about the huge IT market it can impact with the xServes.

yoman
Dec 3, 2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
he's not for real, and he has no clue what he's talking about.

he's famous in mac rumor land for running shady online businesses and cooking up highly-detailed but completed-off-the-mark reports from his manufacturing 'sources.'

thanks for the heads up. I'll remember that.

cesar
Dec 3, 2003, 10:12 PM
how about ProApps (Nothingreal termor), iApps, iOffice, iShapShot (digital camera that conects to the iPod to storage the photos), how about speedbumps in powerbooks....

latergator116
Dec 3, 2003, 10:18 PM
all i can say is that this will be a very interesting MW.

sethypoo
Dec 3, 2003, 10:21 PM
Hmm.....new displays would be great, does anyone know if I can attach a Apple display or a Samsung 170MP to my 12" PowerBook G4 and run it with the lid closed?

~Shard~
Dec 3, 2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by cesar
how about ProApps (Nothingreal termor), iApps, iOffice, iShapShot (digital camera that conects to the iPod to storage the photos), how about speedbumps in powerbooks....

I like the idea of Pro Apps, but I doubt we will see any speed bumps in the PowerBooks. They were just recently updated, and as this article states, there are so many things due for updates before PBs, I think it is unlikely. As I said in my previous posts, I don't know how many updates/new products Jobs is going to want to introduce and announce all at once!

spencecb
Dec 3, 2003, 10:26 PM
Ok...it is my opinion that some of you people just aren't thinking about Apple's products and their meaning...What I mean by this is this: Obviously the PowerMac is the top of the line computer. I believe Apple will increase the speed to at least 2.5 GHz. They have to release this faster processor to make it seem like a better option before the G5 ever finds its way into the iMac. I don't believe the iMac will see the G5 for at least another couple months. However, this is sort of hard to speculate on, as the role of Motorola is becoming unclear the the future of the G4. It almost seems as if Apple will turn to IBM to manufacture all of their processors. If it is true that IBM will start making the processor for the iBook (the modified G3), and the rumors are true that Motorola has no specific roadmap for further development of the G4, then Apple NEEDS to have IBM increase their involvement in making processors. Also, I think that Apple is making every effort to get the G5 into the PowerBook before the iMac. This is because the PowerBook is a pro computer like the PowerMac. It doesn't make good business sense to make the consumer line of computers more powerful than the pro line. If Apple does this, the loyal customers will begin to wonder why Apple is upgrading the consumer products for the masses before they up the anty on the pro line. Hope I'm making sense here to everyone. But just remember, this is all my opinion, and people can feel free to disagree if they would like. No one will ever know until the expo comes along. Oh, and one more thing....I really believe that their new displays will be out for the expo, EXPECIALLY if they update the PowerMacs (and I'm sure they will.) Thanks guys!!!!

Edot
Dec 3, 2003, 10:30 PM
I don't know about hardware since this seems to be a consumer oriented expo, and nothing is really over the normal product cycle besides XServe and LCDs. However, iLife could use an update. It would be exactly one year, and Steve did mention more iApps at the Analyst meeting.

ITR 81
Dec 3, 2003, 10:32 PM
At MacWorld I expect the following:

New PM lineup
2.2, 2.4, 2.6

G5 xServes

4gen iPod
higher storage and better batterylife

Video iPod
since pretty much everyone and their mom has talked about it, it would seem like it all can't just made up.

PB's get speed bump:
1.25, 1.33, 1.42

New LCD's
20, 23, 30 models

new accessories for the iPod

Keynotes upgrade

Word like program released from Apple

Apple annouces iTunes Music Store in Australia, Japan, Canada, and select countries in Europe.

New promotions for the music store.

Annoucing more Apple retail stores in the US and overseas.

Jobs annouces they will be taken over some un-named company.

iSight and iChat AV get bundled together.

New ver. of iLife

New ver. of Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio pro.

I figure they will annouce something at CES as well..so it may not all get annouced at MacWorld.

yoman
Dec 3, 2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
At MacWorld I expect the following:

New PM lineup
2.2, 2.4, 2.6

G5 xServes

4gen iPod
higher storage and better batterylife

Video iPod
since pretty much everyone and their mom has talked about it, it would seem like it all can't just made up.

PB's get speed bump:
1.25, 1.33, 1.42

New LCD's
20, 23, 30 models

new accessories for the iPod

Keynotes upgrade

Word like program released from Apple

Apple annouces iTunes Music Store in Australia, Japan, Canada, and select countries in Europe.

New promotions for the music store.

Annoucing more Apple retail stores in the US and overseas.

Jobs annouces they will be taken over some un-named company.

iSight and iChat AV get bundled together.

New ver. of iLife

New ver. of Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio pro.

I figure they will annouce something at CES as well..so it may not all get annouced at MacWorld.

yikes slow down there. it would be really neat if Apple did announce even half of the stuff you want but if they followed your opinion apple wouldn't have to announce anything new for a decade. (slight exageration) :)

Coca-Cola
Dec 3, 2003, 10:50 PM
I love these discussions. I am really curious about the G4 roadmap. What to do? I would love to see a new low power G5 chip. G6 for the powermacs? Small G5's for the iMac, powerbooks, and eMac. IBM G3's for the ibooks. It is hard to figure out the speed of chip development now that the IBM is in the game. Things really could start moving at great speeds here. Imagine the surprise if Steve unveiled Dual 3 Gig G6's at Macworld. It just seems like something he would like to present.

Coca-Cola
Dec 3, 2003, 10:55 PM
Saying that you will have a 3.0 Ghz chip by the end of the year is pretty risky. Steve must be pretty confident that these chips will be made. Let's just say that they were close when he announced that. I am going to go all out and predict dual 3.0, dual 2.5, and 2.0 very soon.

spencecb
Dec 3, 2003, 11:03 PM
Again, you guys need to be realistic...there will not be a G6 unveiled...at the earliest we will see the G6 will be in the Fall of 2004, not the Spring. And even then, it may be too early to introduce a new chip. Things just depend on IBM at this point, and how quickly they will get the POWER5 down to scale for a PowerPC G6...only time will tell

g5man
Dec 3, 2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
At MacWorld I expect the following:

New PM lineup
2.2, 2.4, 2.6

G5 xServes

4gen iPod
higher storage and better batterylife

Video iPod
since pretty much everyone and their mom has talked about it, it would seem like it all can't just made up.

PB's get speed bump:
1.25, 1.33, 1.42

New LCD's
20, 23, 30 models

new accessories for the iPod

Keynotes upgrade

Word like program released from Apple

Apple annouces iTunes Music Store in Australia, Japan, Canada, and select countries in Europe.

New promotions for the music store.

Annoucing more Apple retail stores in the US and overseas.

Jobs annouces they will be taken over some un-named company.

iSight and iChat AV get bundled together.

New ver. of iLife

New ver. of Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio pro.

I figure they will annouce something at CES as well..so it may not all get annouced at MacWorld.

I think you are pretty close to being right on the money. People are forgetting that Apple is now working IBM. The speed bumps fall in line with what Apple has done for the last 5 years.

coumerelli
Dec 3, 2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
At MacWorld I expect the following:

New PM lineup
2.2, 2.4, 2.6
G5 xServes
4gen iPod
higher storage and better batterylife
Video iPod
since pretty much everyone and their mom has talked about it, it would seem like it all can't just made up.
PB's get speed bump:
1.25, 1.33, 1.42
New LCD's
20, 23, 30 models
new accessories for the iPod
Keynotes upgrade
Word like program released from Apple
Apple annouces iTunes Music Store in Australia, Japan, Canada, and select countries in Europe.
New promotions for the music store.
Annoucing more Apple retail stores in the US and overseas.
Jobs annouces they will be taken over some un-named company.
iSight and iChat AV get bundled together.
New ver. of iLife
New ver. of Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio pro.

goin for broke eh?

~Shard~
Dec 3, 2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
At MacWorld I expect the following:

New PM lineup
2.2, 2.4, 2.6

G5 xServes

4gen iPod
higher storage and better batterylife

Video iPod
since pretty much everyone and their mom has talked about it, it would seem like it all can't just made up.

PB's get speed bump:
1.25, 1.33, 1.42

New LCD's
20, 23, 30 models

new accessories for the iPod

Keynotes upgrade

Word like program released from Apple

Apple annouces iTunes Music Store in Australia, Japan, Canada, and select countries in Europe.

New promotions for the music store.

Annoucing more Apple retail stores in the US and overseas.

Jobs annouces they will be taken over some un-named company.

iSight and iChat AV get bundled together.

New ver. of iLife

New ver. of Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio pro.

I figure they will annouce something at CES as well..so it may not all get annouced at MacWorld.

Not going to happen. No way. It would be nice, but there is no way we'll see ALL of those updates in such a short period of time. ;) I'd be surprised if we see half of them, honestly. Don't get me wrong, they all would be awesome, but I think we need to think a little more realistically here so we don't get our hopes up so high that MWSF ends up being a huge disappointment.

I do admire your "go for broke" attitude though. :)

zamyatin
Dec 3, 2003, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by RalphNumbers
That 3U XServe is such a lousy idea. Rack computing is all about density these days, Even 1U units are being phased out in favor of blades in alot of places. A 3U unit is just *way* too big.

And there's no reason it should have to be that big either. There are blades and 1U servers with intel chips that run significantly hotter than the G5, not to mention IBM's upcoming PPC970 blades...

I can't see Apple going any bigger than the current 1U for future XServes.

Aren't Blade servers usually around 3U? Could be Apple's got a blade Xserve coming?

legion
Dec 3, 2003, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by ffakr
Apple is offering xServes and xServers with xRAID for discounts right now. I was told $600 to $1000 off (though these are NOT default, minimum configs).
Sale runs till mid December. This could be a clearing of stock, but they've offered xServe deals in the past without an update (they were offering deals on purchases of 4 or more xServes a few months ago)

These offers have been going on since June/July. Nothing new.

As for a new version of FCP... maybe they should fix the current one first!

AidenShaw
Dec 3, 2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by RalphNumbers
That 3U XServe is such a lousy idea. Rack computing is all about density these days, Even 1U units are being phased out in favor of blades in alot of places. A 3U unit is just *way* too big.

There's room for both a 3U (or even 4U) as well as 1U (and maybe even blades).

The 1U systems don't have enough PCI-X slots for larger departmental servers, let alone enterprise multi-tier apps. I see many of these small 3U systems tricked out with 4 Fibre Channel ports, 4 to 8 GigE ports, etc. You don't run a big database on a 1U config.

Look at the Dell, HP and IBM server lines - they have 2U, 3U and 4U systems that are virtually the same CPU power as their 1U systems. The bigger guys have more I/O slots, more memory, and more redundancy than the smaller 1U systems.

Adding a 3U unit with G5, 16 GiB ECC RAM, dual power supplies and six PCI-X slots would get Apple some real attention in the enterprise.

Keep the 1U, upgraded to dual G5.

Resell the IBM BladeCenter PPC970 blades in brushed aluminum with an Apple sticker on the front. Shouldn't be too hard to get OS X running on them....

The 1U Xserve was a nice start in the server space, but the lineup needs to be broadened - a 1U won't do for many jobs.

aftk2
Dec 3, 2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by QuiteSure
I don't think Steve will release a 20th Anniv. Mac. Kind of cheesy, and not especially cool.

Too late.

http://www.apple-history.com/noframes/body.php?page=gallery&model=anniversary

(and it was actually quite cool.)

spencecb
Dec 4, 2003, 12:03 AM
I think an anniversary product would be awesome...the last one they did was a cool design...but with Apple I.D. they could do much better. Hopefully they will introduce one at the expo...I'm sure it would be awesome...maybe this time it could be somewhat experimental, and if the idea flies, then they could capatilize on it....just an idea

pgwalsh
Dec 4, 2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
At MacWorld I expect the following:
I figure they will annouce something at CES as well..so it may not all get annouced at MacWorld. I like it. Nice backpedal at the end. :wink:

ktlx
Dec 4, 2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by RalphNumbers
That 3U XServe is such a lousy idea. Rack computing is all about density these days, Even 1U units are being phased out in favor of blades in alot of places. A 3U unit is just *way* too big.

If Apple wants to get serious, they need a quad processor server. It is pretty tough to go with quad processors, internal disks and expansion slots and not be at 3U.

Many 1U units can be phased out by blades because typically 1U servers had little expansion and no more than dual processors. They typically are used for Web, file and print servers. Blades can easily provide equivalent function in a smaller space.

But if you need four or more processors, and multiple fibre channel and/or network connections, blade servers just don't cut it. You are looking at 3U (and above).

AmigoMac
Dec 4, 2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Coca-Cola
Saying that you will have a 3.0 Ghz chip by the end of the year is pretty risky. Steve must be pretty confident that these chips will be made. Let's just say that they were close when he announced that. I am going to go all out and predict dual 3.0, dual 2.5, and 2.0 very soon.


He said, "G5 will be running at 3GHz by next summer" ... or something like that, was he talking that IBM would have the chips ready or Apple will be producing? Two different points of view, if is the first one, delivery would be late as the DP 2 GHz

AidenShaw
Dec 4, 2003, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by ktlx
If Apple wants to get serious, they need a quad processor server.

A quad would be a nice addition - but quads are usually quite a bit more expensive per CPU than duals.

A dual 3U is still needed - for expandability and availability, not as much for raw power. Use the Xserve chassis form factor as a start, have 7 disks, dual CPU, ECC memory, redundant power, 5 PCI-X slots....

Just as the Xserve 1U was a nice system to start with, a 3U dualie would be a good next step. Don't force people who need a couple of more PCI-X slots to pay for a quad.

After that step, add a quad and blades....

fr0ntside
Dec 4, 2003, 02:56 AM
i know we'll be seeing new ipods for sure. I've seen a leak on apples "Job Search" page for a full time software engineer "will be designing with next-gen ipod software".
This was a few months ago.

I HIGHLY doubt an ipod with a color screen etc, that would boots the price largely and i dont think thats the path apple is trying to go down with the ipod, theyr already expensive as it is.
Apple is trying to keep ipod prices low for their campaign aimed at teenagers

ipodrocks.com (http://www.ipodrocks.com)

synp
Dec 4, 2003, 03:38 AM
The PM have just been upgraded. They could go higher a little (2.4 instead of 2.0), but that's not interesting. The iMac has just been upgraded with a 20" screen. A faster G4 would be nice, but without a G5, no wow there either.
The iBook has just been upgraded. The PB hasn't, but again, a slightly faster G4 has no wow factor. Same goes for the eMac.
I don't think we're going to see any big announcements for these, maybe a "one more thing..."

So what's left? There are the XServes, which are definitely due for an upgrade. However, introducing a server has a wow factor. Putting a stronger processor in an existing server does not. I would guess a G5 XServe would either be a "one more thing" or else be announced slightly before or after the expo.

I think software and/or gadgets will be the focus of the keynote. Perhaps another office program (word-like), or seriously upgraded iApps. Maybe a new iPod or the forever-rumored "other gadget"

I'm still hoping for the tablet/picture frame. We'll see.

rikers_mailbox
Dec 4, 2003, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
At MacWorld I expect the following:
New PM lineup
2.2, 2.4, 2.6
G5 xServes
4gen iPod
higher storage and better batterylife
Video iPod
since pretty much everyone and their mom has talked about it, it would seem like it all can't just made up.
PB's get speed bump:
1.25, 1.33, 1.42
New LCD's
20, 23, 30 models
new accessories for the iPod
Keynotes upgrade
Word like program released from Apple
Apple annouces iTunes Music Store in Australia, Japan, Canada, and select countries in Europe.
New promotions for the music store.
Annoucing more Apple retail stores in the US and overseas.
Jobs annouces they will be taken over some un-named company.
iSight and iChat AV get bundled together.
New ver. of iLife
New ver. of Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio pro.
I figure they will annouce something at CES as well..so it may not all get annouced at MacWorld.

This looks more like your [Holiday of Choice] wish list. :D

Only thing missing is iChat for Windows. . any new rumors on this one?

-rik

QuiteSure
Dec 4, 2003, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by aftk2
Too late.

http://www.apple-history.com/noframes/body.php?page=gallery&model=anniversary

(and it was actually quite cool.)

I know about that computer, and because of its existence I predict there will not be a 20th Anniv. (of the Mac) commemorative Mac announced for 2004.

DanUk2003
Dec 4, 2003, 04:11 AM
Does anyone know if it's been confirmed that Steve Jobs is actually presenting the Keynote at MWSF??


Also, any words yet on a stream??




Thanks :)

msp
Dec 4, 2003, 04:17 AM
I think new XServe are coming.
And maybe a new version of keynote.

Not much more because apple wants to be in the press all the year, so they are releasing new products and updates all over the year.

The don't want to burn the firework in one session. They want publicity all over the year to get free promotion.

So I guess :
- new XServe
- new software (keynote)
- a long keynote showing what apple has done the past month (ibooks, G5 dp 1.8 ...)
- roadmap like 10.3.2 is coming in month X
- music store is doing so good ...

Thats I think.

johnnyjibbs
Dec 4, 2003, 04:50 AM
Remember it was 2 and a half years between the introduction of the G4 PowerMac (Autumn '99) and the G4 iMac (Jan 2002). However, the G5 iMac will be sooner as the G3 iMac's good sales had something to do with that, as was the similarity between the G3 and G4 processors.

I reckon a new Keynote + some mystery new software, maybe even iChat AV for Windows.

Hardware-wise, G5 Xserves, at least a price reduction in current G5 line (or update a month later), no new PowerBooks, iBooks or iMacs.

One more thing...The return of the Cube. As someone else said, it would be nice for an eMac-priced headless consumer Mac - the iMac without the screen - G4-based. Maybe allow a little more expandability (i.e. changeable graphics card).

jalterman
Dec 4, 2003, 05:34 AM
What about serious price cuts on AirPorts? At this point, they seem to be priced more than twice as high as the competition.

johnnyjibbs
Dec 4, 2003, 05:37 AM
yeah, I might think about getting it then!

Awimoway
Dec 4, 2003, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
At MacWorld I expect the following:

New PM lineup
2.2, 2.4, 2.6
G5 xServes
4gen iPod
higher storage and better batterylife
Video iPod
since pretty much everyone and their mom has talked about it, it would seem like it all can't just made up.
PB's get speed bump:
1.25, 1.33, 1.42
New LCD's
20, 23, 30 models
new accessories for the iPod
Keynotes upgrade
Word like program released from Apple
Apple annouces iTunes Music Store in Australia, Japan, Canada, and select countries in Europe.
New promotions for the music store.
Annoucing more Apple retail stores in the US and overseas.
Jobs annouces they will be taken over some un-named company.
iSight and iChat AV get bundled together.
New ver. of iLife
New ver. of Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio pro.
I figure they will annouce something at CES as well..so it may not all get annouced at MacWorld.

Well at least we didn't waste any time making a list of things no MWSF could ever live up to, thus ensuring our utter disappointment when the day arrives. You only left out iWalk, G5 PowerBooks, and Mac-powered rocketships to the next lunar exploration. :rolleyes:

splashman
Dec 4, 2003, 05:51 AM
Apple just bumped the 1.8 to be DP a month ago, right? Would they have done that if they knew they were going to bump it again just two months later? Can anyone cite an instance (in the modern Jobs era) in which one of Apple's speed bumps lasted only two months? (I know the chip speed wasn't increased, but in effect, it was a speed bump.)

Yes, the 1.6 has been around longer, but if they don't bump the 1.8, they obviously can't bump the 1.6. And I imagine Apple's not too concerned about 1.6 sales anyway -- they'd much rather get someone into a DP model (fatter margin). For those who can't stomach the DP price, there's always the iMac.

My guess (only a guess) is that Apple will bump the top-end model to 2.5 DP, to give them new bragging rights and give those with a lot of money something to spend it on. Then they'll wait a couple of months (until the hubbub dies down) and then bump the lower two models.

(My $0.02)

johnnyjibbs
Dec 4, 2003, 05:54 AM
That doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Remember the 867/1GHz TiBooks? Released in November 2002, then 12" and 17" PowerBooks launched in January 2003 with new form factors. The new dual 1.8 may just become the low end model for January with two high configs above it (and a price drop of course).

splashman
Dec 4, 2003, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Awimoway
Well at least we didn't waste any time making a list of things no MWSF could ever live up to, thus ensuring our utter disappointment when the day arrives. You only left out iWalk, G5 PowerBooks, and Mac-powered rocketships to the next lunar exploration. :rolleyes:

Heh heh. Took the words right out of my mouth.

Just a thought -- if a person intends for their "prediction" to be taken seriously (instead of just laughed at), I'd suggest typing without the help of recreational drugs. ;)

splashman
Dec 4, 2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
That doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Remember the 867/1GHz TiBooks? Released in November 2002, then 12" and 17" PowerBooks launched in January 2003 with new form factors. The new dual 1.8 may just become the low end model for January with two high configs above it (and a price drop of course).

Good point. You may very well be right.

However, I must point out that a form-factor change is a whole 'nuther ball game. One could argue that they released the PB bumps in November merely to stimulate flagging sales of the old form factor.

Also, not having a single-processor option at the low end seems a bit strange (maybe a single 1.8?)

But hey, we're all just guessing, right?

johnnyjibbs
Dec 4, 2003, 06:05 AM
Your guess is as good as mine :)

Ambrose Chapel
Dec 4, 2003, 06:38 AM
i'm with the software camp--i want to see this Office Killer already. AppleWorks is so Un-Aqua...they need something better and i'm sure it's coming.

i also want iPhoto 3--please make it usable for those of us with large libraries!

on the hardware front i'd like to see the new LCDs, but otherwise I'm not in the market for anything so whatever happens (or doesn't) will be fine with me

mproud
Dec 4, 2003, 06:41 AM
Panther will be briefly glossed over as we left off there (well, okay, besides iTMS for Windows and the iPod).

.Mac looked over and praised for its premium of applications and resources to users.

I think iChat will DEFINITELY be mentioned as going to 1.0 (the beta will have expired).

The ever growing number of Apple Stores and going international will be mentioned.

The iPod and iTunes successes will be commented on and the number of downloads and dominance in the market, along with partnerships.

iTunes Music Store for it's vast number of songs and new independent labels (let's say, 500,000 by the Expo?)

But as for new stuff...
An iPod software update with the iPod@Home?

Those XServes GOTTA come. I don't expect them to be ready by the Expo, but definitely they should be announced - and IBM once again commended.

Otherwise... new AppleWorks (or its replacement?) anyone?

And finally, a long shot... Apple with a camera add-on to the iPod (in actuality, more likely a third-party). I'd love to see it... but... can't be too greedy :D

I don't think iPods are at all out of the picture (their time for an update is actually coming up... (http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/)). But I don't see anything new with them except maybe more accessories.

boostventilator
Dec 4, 2003, 07:00 AM
eMac's are currently lacking USB 2.0. I wouldn't be surprized to see an eMac revamp.

MacRonin
Dec 4, 2003, 07:45 AM
whoever said that a blade server would be smaller than a standard Xserve, put down the crack pipe!

The IBM BladeCenter (chassis which holds the blades; no chassis, no worky) is a 7U box...

As for the cheaper iPod thing, maybe a sub-$100 job with solid state storage... Perfect for the Pepsi crowd...!

sushi
Dec 4, 2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by aftk2
Too late.

http://www.apple-history.com/noframes/body.php?page=gallery&model=anniversary

(and it was actually quite cool.)
Yep, nice system. Enjoy mine a lot. :D

Sushi

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 4, 2003, 08:08 AM
i find it pretty ironic that Motorola has for the most part again come to a standstill that has apple scrambling, other then powermac all g4 models have no where to go except ibook? this is about the same as the 500 mghzt fiasco. they were using 2 1.42 g4's a year ago in powermac were they not? and they still dont have anymore then a 1.25 single imac? the consumer line is behind the Pc world big time! i dont mine spending the money but apple has a lot of catching up to do because of motorola. this next year i think all the lines will get a lot of advancement when steve jobs boots those moto chips out of most Macs. This is what im hoping for because the years of motostagnation has nearly killed me!:(

jayscheuerle
Dec 4, 2003, 08:19 AM
If Apple's not releasing an inexpensive headless by now (in time for the holiday season), they shouldn't even bother...

chacha75
Dec 4, 2003, 08:27 AM
I'd like to see:

- iPhoto update (better performance with large photo library
- iCal update (better tasks management, performance improvement)
- Powerbook 12" update (1.25 Ghz, widescreen 1200x1024, ATI 9600 64Mb)

That would be so cool.
:D

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 4, 2003, 08:29 AM
Apple has never released a inexpensive anything to my knowlege, and im a little surprised by the buying guide here that says imac buy now? all they did was slap a bigger monitor on it. it still has the slow 1 & 1.25 g4? and xserve needs help also.

StudioGuy
Dec 4, 2003, 08:36 AM
I wouldn't bet on a new version of FCP & DVDSP. Although G5 owners have probably upgraded from FCP3, I bet many others are still considering the upgrade, and releasing a FCP5 would seem way too early for those that just bought 4.

I'd just like to see a faster G5 of course (more plug-in power) [and, that I can GET by March!] and a reasonable display price that makes me buy an Apple monitor instead. :)

engelb15
Dec 4, 2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by chacha75
I'd like to see:

- iPhoto update (better performance with large photo library
- iCal update (better tasks management, performance improvement)
- Powerbook 12" update (1.25 Ghz, widescreen 1200x1024, ATI 9600 64Mb)

That would be so cool.
:D


Yes, please update iPhoto! it is painfully slow.

and a widescreen 12" powerbook would be awesome.

johnnyjibbs
Dec 4, 2003, 08:59 AM
IMO all the iLife apps are slow except iTunes. iTunes is great.

iPhoto is quite slow but I currently only have 200 photos and they display in about 1 second on my PB 12" 1GHz. It's painfully slow to resize the window though. iMovie is THE WORST! I haven't played with it much because I got Final Cut Express with my Mac (and love it) and this is much faster, even when I'm depriving it currently of RAM (I only have 256MB). iDVD is not too slow but it hogs RAM. This is expected because of the large file sizes etc.

I don't know how much faster they are in Panther though... Will find out tomorrow hopefully!

rog
Dec 4, 2003, 09:08 AM
I have extremely low expectations for MWSF. If there are any significant updates it will be surprising. Virtually everything has been updated since October. It would be nice to see Apple join the rest of the computing world with big updates and price cuts every 3 months or so instead of small updates and minor price cuts every 6 months or so.

I guess the one exception is the Xserve which is ridiculously overdue. Why anyone would buy one when they can have a DP 1.8 G5 is beyond me.

Frobozz
Dec 4, 2003, 09:11 AM
I wish Apple would just set forth some standard configurations, 3 perhaps, but allow you to REALLY customize your machine if you want to. For example, they should have but one "custom" link, and there you could pick from either a single or dual setup, and your processor speed: 1.8, 2.0, 2.2, 2.5. Now THAT would be sweet.

DrGruv1
Dec 4, 2003, 09:11 AM
Guesses:

Filemaker, Appleword, Safari, Keynote, Mail etc... Mac's Own "Office" Production Suite

Video Ipod - controller for the home media market

Advanced Ipods

20th Anniv. Cube Mac

New Screens with Isight built-in

Speed bump G5's

-mike
:D

SiliconAddict
Dec 4, 2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by hokka

think about it, majority of people who can afford to buy the current iPods wouldn't go to a MacDonalds or maybe even drink fizzy drinks, they have to release a much cheaper version to make the whole npromotion worth while (think kids)... the rest is for you to dream up what they'd do.

Would you not agree?

No.

EVERYONE goes to McDonalds. Not just the down and out vagabond. If I'm going to be pulling a late shift redoing a server or something I go grab a quick bite at MD or BK. I've seen Porsches run through a drive through window at MD. What about college kids? Do they not own iPods and go to MD?
You are trying to outthink Apple. Donít.
That doesnít mean they wonít announce new, cheaper iPods in January but not for the reasons you are giving. Appleís price point on the iPod really hasnít dropped much in the past 2 years. Why would they change it now? Because of cheaper competition. The Dell device comes in cheaper then the iPod and gets superior battery life. Apple needs to respond. Putting out new high-end devices only services people looking for high-end devices. Right now Apple doesnít have a common man device. The equivalent of a walkman sold at Target or K-Mart. Something cheap that a mom or dad wouldnít have problems dropping a couple bills down on for little Timmyís birthday.

Personally Iím thinking that Apple is going to pull another 17Ē and 12Ē laptop scheme but for the iPod. Announcing the new X ipod the latest and greatest in digital tech. And for the thrifty user the Y iPod with [5 or 10]GB of storage coming in at $199.

splashman
Dec 4, 2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by chacha75
I'd like to see:

- iPhoto update (better performance with large photo library
- iCal update (better tasks management, performance improvement)
- Powerbook 12" update (1.25 Ghz, widescreen 1200x1024, ATI 9600 64Mb)

That would be so cool.
:D


Um, 1200x1024 isn't "widescreen". In fact, it's "narrowscreen" (my 19" display is 1280x1024). :)

Also, since Apple most definitely will not enlarge the form factor, making a "widescreen" would require them to reduce the screen's vertical dimension.

Is that "cool"?

Would love to see the iPhoto and iCal updates, though. Mail too, as long as we're dreaming . . .

illumin8
Dec 4, 2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by arn
PowerJack is the MacWhispers guy, for what it's worth.
My god, that guy always sounds so authoritative as if he personally works at one of the suppliers. After all of his BS PowerBook G5 rumors last summer, does anyone believe a word this guy says?

Not only that, he buys book stands at Walmart and sells them as "laptop stands" for about 3 times their value. As in all things, caveat emptor.

It seems like the Mac community is more affluent than the average population and that tends to attract a certain type of "sophisticated bottom feeder" that likes to try to rip us off.

illumin8
Dec 4, 2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by RalphNumbers
That 3U XServe is such a lousy idea. Rack computing is all about density these days, Even 1U units are being phased out in favor of blades in alot of places. A 3U unit is just *way* too big.

And there's no reason it should have to be that big either. There are blades and 1U servers with intel chips that run significantly hotter than the G5, not to mention IBM's upcoming PPC970 blades...

I can't see Apple going any bigger than the current 1U for future XServes.
The problem preventing a 1U G5 XServe is the same problem preventing a G5 PowerBook: heat! 3U is pretty much right on the money. Remember that the G4 is an extremely low power and efficient processor that doesn't generate very much heat. The G5 will not be low power or low heat until it reaches a 90 nanometer process (next Summer).

The first rev. of the G5 Xserve are going to be a little bit big and fugly, and next Summer, when the 3 ghz. PowerMacs are released, expect to see sleek 1U Xserves.

I think the reason why they're coming out with this "stop-gap" product is because there is a huge demand right now for a G5 based server (witness the 1100 node G5 cluster). A lot of supercomputing projects will depend on the G5.

spencecb
Dec 4, 2003, 09:50 AM
Someone wrote a post earlier saying that they don't believe Apple will bump the PowerMacs in Jan. The reason they gave for this is because Apple added the 1.8 dual. Well, my thought on that is that maybe IBM produced an excess of the 1.8's, expecting that version of the PowerMac to sell the most, so they added a second processor to help get them out of stock. Or, Apple could be moving to an all dual lineup like they did for the PowerMac G4's...they are going to have to bump the speeds in Jan if they want to get to 3.0 GHz by the end of 2004

CmdrLaForge
Dec 4, 2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by MrSmith
There must be other people like me for whom a PowerMac is overkill and who don't want an iMac for whatever reason (in my case even a 10-inch footprint is too much for my little workspace - I need a stand-alone screen). Basically there isn't a machine for me right now. Well, why not fill the gap and give us an iMac (preferably expandable to more than 1 gig) with a DETACHABLE screen. Either you can stick it in the box like the present iMac, or separate it and run a cable between them. Easy enough to reach the CD/DVD tray in something the size of a Cube under my desk.

Just an idea...

And thats a good idea. And it would be even better if the screen can be re-used with the next updated Mac some years later, and the next one some years later, and the next one some years later . . . .

splashman
Dec 4, 2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Personally Iím thinking that Apple is going to pull another 17Ē and 12Ē laptop scheme but for the iPod. Announcing the new X ipod the latest and greatest in digital tech. And for the thrifty user the Y iPod with [5 or 10]GB of storage coming in at $199.

Interesting idea. Now that I think about it, I'm sure Jobs & Co. have been working on this.

First, Apple is selling plenty of their higher-capacity iPods, so the "Y iPod" wouldn't cannibalize their high-end sales. As you say, it would mostly be the parents in Walmart who would buy one so their kid would stop whining every time they go past the POS display. These folks would never buy a higher-priced iPod anyway.

Second, this would allow Apple to up the ante with its high-end iPod (X iPod) without forcing everyone to pay for it. For instance, they could add a built-in mike or other features that are third-party at present.

Currently the only differentiation in the iPod line is HD size. Now that the market is better defined, I think Apple can risk an investment into a slightly broader product line. Heck, if they go to the trouble of making a 20" iMac . . .

Final thought: If the high-end iPod gets a really cool new look, a lot of people will "Super-size their value-meal" just for the bragging rights.

Dave K
Dec 4, 2003, 10:03 AM
Given the refresh history of the last couple years, I'd be really surprised if the PowerMacs aren't updated in Febuary instead of January, unless SJ wants to make a big impression with regards to their newfound ability to upclock.

Febuary rollouts for speed ramps have been standard for a while now.

DGFan
Dec 4, 2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
IMO all the iLife apps are slow except iTunes. iTunes is great.

iPhoto is quite slow but I currently only have 200 photos and they display in about 1 second on my PB 12" 1GHz. It's painfully slow to resize the window though. iMovie is THE WORST! I haven't played with it much because I got Final Cut Express with my Mac (and love it) and this is much faster, even when I'm depriving it currently of RAM (I only have 256MB). iDVD is not too slow but it hogs RAM. This is expected because of the large file sizes etc.


Don't complain about the software if you are using a computer with too little RAM. 512MB is the absolute minimum. 1GB is preferred (I have 1.5GB on my dual 867 and it's a speedy little bugger).

splashman
Dec 4, 2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by spencecb
Someone wrote a post earlier saying that they don't believe Apple will bump the PowerMacs in Jan. The reason they gave for this is because Apple added the 1.8 dual. Well, my thought on that is that maybe IBM produced an excess of the 1.8's, expecting that version of the PowerMac to sell the most, so they added a second processor to help get them out of stock. Or, Apple could be moving to an all dual lineup like they did for the PowerMac G4's...they are going to have to bump the speeds in Jan if they want to get to 3.0 GHz by the end of 2004

Keep in mind that Apple only has to have their high-end machine at 3 Ghz by next Fall. So a high-end speed bump to 2.5 early in the year would fit in nicely. What they'll do with the low- and mid-range models is anybody's guess.

DGFan
Dec 4, 2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by spencecb
Someone wrote a post earlier saying that they don't believe Apple will bump the PowerMacs in Jan. The reason they gave for this is because Apple added the 1.8 dual. Well, my thought on that is that maybe IBM produced an excess of the 1.8's, expecting that version of the PowerMac to sell the most, so they added a second processor to help get them out of stock. Or, Apple could be moving to an all dual lineup like they did for the PowerMac G4's...they are going to have to bump the speeds in Jan if they want to get to 3.0 GHz by the end of 2004

Not necessarily. If they have plenty of other things to announce at MWSF they may just wait until a later (early Feb?) to upgrade the G5's (to 2.4 or 2.6).

Some people may wait until MWSF to buy a G5 and then go buy one when they see that new models weren't announce (hahah suckers!)

Kid Red
Dec 4, 2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Bring on the speedbubmps so the DP 2.0 owners can feel like the SP 1.8 owners :)

Be prepared to have a 2 month wait to get your powermac though...

Actually, the dual 2.0 owners will feel like 1.6 owners :)

illumin8
Dec 4, 2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
IMO all the iLife apps are slow except iTunes. iTunes is great.

iPhoto is quite slow but I currently only have 200 photos and they display in about 1 second on my PB 12" 1GHz. It's painfully slow to resize the window though. iMovie is THE WORST! I haven't played with it much because I got Final Cut Express with my Mac (and love it) and this is much faster, even when I'm depriving it currently of RAM (I only have 256MB). iDVD is not too slow but it hogs RAM. This is expected because of the large file sizes etc.

I don't know how much faster they are in Panther though... Will find out tomorrow hopefully!
You need more memory! Don't say the iApps are slow if you're only running 256 MB... Put at least 512 in there then tell me if it's still slow. I have a 1.25 Ghz 15" AlBook with 1GB of RAM, and all the iApps are very fast.

supertex
Dec 4, 2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle
If Apple's not releasing an inexpensive headless by now (in time for the holiday season), they shouldn't even bother...

well... maybe not, considering the buggy releases lately, it might not be such a great idea to release a NEW product that will be in the hands of so many switchers in its first revision. Release it after Christmas, and you miss the holiday buying, but you get to revise and establish the product a few times before it's on everybody's list for next year.

P.S. - I understand that .0 releases are inevitably buggy, this is not a complaint, but most average computer users won't be particularly forgiving.

the_mole1314
Dec 4, 2003, 10:21 AM
I have a feeling that we won't see 2.5ghz G5s, I think like a 2.33 or something, but I think that the 2.5 isn't stable enough. I bet we'll see 2.5 in april, and then 3ghz in late July/August

AidenShaw
Dec 4, 2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by illumin8
The problem preventing a 1U G5 XServe is the same problem preventing a G5 PowerBook: heat!

That's complete nonsense.

IBM/Dell/HP et al. are putting 3.2 GHz dual CPU Xeons in 1U boxes (e.g. http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/proliantdl360/index.html) A 3 GHz Xeon generates much more heat than a 2 GHz G5....

IBM is putting two 3.2 GHz Xeons in a 0.5U blade (see http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=2575417&storeId=1&catalogId=-840&langId=-1), and is putting two 1.6 GHz PPC970 chips in the same form factor 0.5U Blade (http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/bladecenter/js20/more_info.html)

Rackmount systems are intended for computer rooms - it doesn't matter if the fans make a bit of noise.

The large fans on the Powermac G5 are there for quietness - not because it generates a huge amount of heat!

Trowaman
Dec 4, 2003, 10:49 AM
This is just my hypothesis on what will be released:

1: Power Mac G5 updates (gotta hit the 3.0 soon)
2. 20th anniversary mac (BRING BACK THE CUBE!)
3. Update the iLife apps
4. The new office suite (let's get Microsoft's teeth out of Mac forever!)

As much as I expect the X-serves and LCDs to be upgraded soon I'm not sure if they seem like MWSF products, or the X-Serve doesn't. I think the X-serve will be a Feb. release and the LCDs have 50/50 chance of seeing the light of day at MWSF, if not, Feb with the X-Serves.

Well, yeah . . .this seems like the most logical products to me. Although that mac powered rocket ship would be cool . . .

johnnyjibbs
Dec 4, 2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by DGFan
Don't complain about the software if you are using a computer with too little RAM. 512MB is the absolute minimum. 1GB is preferred (I have 1.5GB on my dual 867 and it's a speedy little bugger).
I know this will help but my point is, why should iMovie and iPhoto be slower than Final Cut Express and Photoshop Elements with the same amount of RAM?

I'm just waiting for the 512MB RAM module at crucial to drop below its current £79 and I'll be there.

jayscheuerle
Dec 4, 2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by illumin8
You need more memory! Don't say the iApps are slow if you're only running 256 MB... Put at least 512 in there then tell me if it's still slow. I have a 1.25 Ghz 15" AlBook with 1GB of RAM, and all the iApps are very fast.

I have over 512 MB of RAM and iPhoto is still a dog with over 1200 photos and counting. This app needs to be reworked to handle large libraries better.

jouster
Dec 4, 2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by illumin8
Not only that, he buys book stands at Walmart and sells them as "laptop stands" for about 3 times their value. As in all things, caveat emptor.

Have you ever bought a can of Coke or Pepsi? Or eaten in a restaurant? Then you are paying A LOT more than 3X cost. Adding ~65% to cost is not a shady practice.

ffakr
Dec 4, 2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by the_mole1314
I have a feeling that we won't see 2.5ghz G5s, I think like a 2.33 or something, but I think that the 2.5 isn't stable enough. I bet we'll see 2.5 in april, and then 3ghz in late July/August
Any you're basing this on? You've received engineering samples of the faster 970s?

I think that no-one outside of IBM or Apple's G5 Engineering group knows how stable the 970 is at any given clock speed.

jmho

hayesk
Dec 4, 2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by yoman
Sounds interesting I don't know if this guy is for real but he seems to know what he's talking about. Hmmmm...

Uhm... no - that is Jack Campbell of MacTable, MacMice, MacWhispers fame. I wouldn't pay any attention to what he says.

ITR 81
Dec 4, 2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Awimoway
Well at least we didn't waste any time making a list of things no MWSF could ever live up to, thus ensuring our utter disappointment when the day arrives. You only left out iWalk, G5 PowerBooks, and Mac-powered rocketships to the next lunar exploration. :rolleyes:

First, everything I've talked about have been rumored or actually leaked out of Apple. It's been in a many mags and many websites.

Will they all appear at the showing maybe not. Will they happen this yr? I would say yes.

Will I be disappointed like most of you think? No, because I only want to see a good event. Nothing more and nothing less.

ITR 81
Dec 4, 2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by illumin8
You need more memory! Don't say the iApps are slow if you're only running 256 MB... Put at least 512 in there then tell me if it's still slow. I have a 1.25 Ghz 15" AlBook with 1GB of RAM, and all the iApps are very fast.

I have only 512 in my 15 TiBook and all my iApps are fast. I'm going to upgrade to 1GB soon.

pgwalsh
Dec 4, 2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by engelb15
Yes, please update iPhoto! it is painfully slow. Yes and allow us to upload are albums to the site of our choice. :cool:

hayesk
Dec 4, 2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by illumin8
You need more memory! Don't say the iApps are slow if you're only running 256 MB... Put at least 512 in there then tell me if it's still slow. I have a 1.25 Ghz 15" AlBook with 1GB of RAM, and all the iApps are very fast.

Sorry buddy, but I have 896MB of RAM. iPhoto slows down a lot when you get up to around 1000 photos. And I am definitely not a "pro user" - you can get to 1000 photos pretty quickly.

Rincewind42
Dec 4, 2003, 11:37 AM
I feel like speculating, so here is my good, better, best (best would be awesome, but is least likely to happen =p)

Good
PowerMac G5 speed bump, new systems are:
Dual 1.8/512MB/200GB/64MB Radeon 9600
Dual 2.2/1GB/250GB/64MB Radeon 9600
Dual 2.5/1GB/250GB/128MB Radeon 9800
BTO 256MB Radeon 9800, all systems with PCI-X motherboards.

G5 Xserve, 1U config, 1x or 2x 2.2Ghz G5s, 4 independent SATA disk controllers with 250+GB SATA drives. 1AGP/PCI and 2 PCI-X slots

Price drop current LCDs.

Better
G5 Xserve is 1x or 2x 2.5Ghz G5s
3U Xserve Blade edition. Lots of redundancies, etc. Dunno how many blades would be practical for a 3U box, but I can see each blade as single/dual 1.6 G5s (it's a blade server, want more power, put in another blade dammit =p).
G5 iMac. Same monitor sizes as now, but with 1.6 & 1.8Ghz G5s, nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra video, and 120 GB HD.

New LCDs.

iPod $50 cut across the board.

Best
Reborn Cube, 2.0 Ghz G5, 64MB Radeon 9600 video, 160 SATA HD, couple hundred less than low-end PowerMac G5.

20th Anniversary Macintosh
2.5 Ghz G5, 2x250GB SATA HD, 256MB Radeon 9800 graphics, 2GB RAM standard (expandable up to 8GB). Comes with a special edition LCD, largest size Apple's offering. Wireless KB/Mouse, built in iSight. Bluetooth/Airport Extreme. 5.1 speaker system. Complimentary AppleCare. Only $7K =).

iPod $100 cut across the board. $149 5GB iPod in current form factor.

Best would certainly be a cool MWSF though I think =).

the_mole1314
Dec 4, 2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by ffakr
Any you're basing this on? You've received engineering samples of the faster 970s?

I think that no-one outside of IBM or Apple's G5 Engineering group knows how stable the 970 is at any given clock speed.

jmho

Just my own opinion, I really don't know about that.

mrsebastian
Dec 4, 2003, 11:43 AM
what is the point of metioning the cube at the end of the article? it's f#@king dead! not that i don't love the cube, but forget about it.

SiliconAddict
Dec 4, 2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by mrsebastian
what is the point of metioning the cube at the end of the article? it's f#@king dead!

You obviously haven't been reading MacRumsors enough. :p There have been plenty of rumors as of late about Apple pulling a Phoenix with their cube form. I personally don't like it but hey.
*shrugs* Never say never when it comes to Apple and Jobs freakish obsession with things.

DGFan
Dec 4, 2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
I know this will help but my point is, why should iMovie and iPhoto be slower than Final Cut Express and Photoshop Elements with the same amount of RAM?

I'm just waiting for the 512MB RAM module at crucial to drop below its current £79 and I'll be there.

I can't answer that with respect to iMovie and FCE. As for PE and iPhoto, they do different things. iPhoto is a browser too and it's probably the case that caching that much information about each image and the thumbnails was filling up a lot of RAM. PE doesn't need to do that normally.

Plus, iMovie and iPhoto are "free" (sort of) so I wouldn't expect the same polish and under-the-hood tinkering to squeeze out every ounce of speed. FCE and PE are stripped down versions of expensive software so it doesn't surprise me that their core functions are fast.

SiliconAddict
Dec 4, 2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by DGFan


Plus, iMovie and iPhoto are "free" (sort of) so I wouldn't expect the same polish and under-the-hood tinkering to squeeze out every ounce of speed. FCE and PE are stripped down versions of expensive software so it doesn't surprise me that their core functions are fast.


Free doesn't mean an app has to be cheap. Microsoft pulls this kind of crap all the time with crappy products like Movie Maker or MS Paint. The iLife apps are the cornerstone of the Mac. Every time you hear Mac users singing the praises of Apple its because of the OS X and iLife. (Or more specifically iTunes. Why should one app be so much better then the rest of them?) Its what makes a Mac a Mac right? I personally am a shutterbug and have close to 4,000 pictures adding about 30-100 pictures to my collection a month. If, more like when, I get a Mac I want that functionality that Mac is supposedly synonymous for. I know 3 Mac users. All three donít even bother with iPhoto. Whatís the point of these apps if they arenít going to be the best of breed? Again behavior I expect from Microsoft NOT Apple.

DGFan
Dec 4, 2003, 12:36 PM
Some people (a small minority to be sure) here have commented that Apple doesn't really need to upgrade their systems at MWSF (or thereabouts). Well, Intel is apparently releasing Prescott soon after (starting at 3.4GHz)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/34355.html

Apple needs to be delivering at least a 2.4GHz machine by that time to stay in the ballpark.

ktlx
Dec 4, 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by AidenShaw
A quad would be a nice addition - but quads are usually quite a bit more expensive per CPU than duals.

A dual 3U is still needed - for expandability and availability, not as much for raw power. Use the Xserve chassis form factor as a start, have 7 disks, dual CPU, ECC memory, redundant power, 5 PCI-X slots....

Just as the Xserve 1U was a nice system to start with, a 3U dualie would be a good next step. Don't force people who need a couple of more PCI-X slots to pay for a quad.

They should not have to. The 3U should be quad processor capable with options to start with one, two or four processors and increase as need be. Other server companies offer that as standard fare. I think Apple will have to do the same to compete in the enterprise space.

whooleytoo
Dec 4, 2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
I know this will help but my point is, why should iMovie and iPhoto be slower than Final Cut Express and Photoshop Elements with the same amount of RAM?

Well, it wouldn't surprise me if Apple were throttling the free iApps to make the pay-for applications appear to be worth the money; it wouldn't be the first time.

Awimoway
Dec 4, 2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
First, everything I've talked about have been rumored or actually leaked out of Apple. It's been in a many mags and many websites. Will they all appear at the showing maybe not. Will they happen this yr? I would say yes.

Anyone can start a rumor. We can't be sure everything will appear. Video iPod? Please.

Will I be disappointed like most of you think? No, because I only want to see a good event. Nothing more and nothing less.

Well, good. I just know that in my experience, no MWSF ever lives up to the unrealistic set of expectations we place on Apple. It gets old. I am not an apologist for Apple, but I'm even less of one for the fanboys who expect Apple to repeal the law of gravity andf make gold nuggets spew out of their G5 cheese graters. Hell, even if everything on your list is destined to happen, there wouldn't be time enough in the keynote to present all of it. Remember you originally said you "expect" all of these things at MWSF.

SPG
Dec 4, 2003, 01:21 PM
For the video pro's there is a need for massive high speed storage that is affordable. My dream product coming out of this MWSF? A fiber channel Xraid without a server and that is oh, about 480gig and can handle the throughput for capturing uncompressed HD and is about half the cost of the current Xserve Xraid combo.

ffakr
Dec 4, 2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by DGFan
Some people (a small minority to be sure) here have commented that Apple doesn't really need to upgrade their systems at MWSF (or thereabouts). Well, Intel is apparently releasing Prescott soon after (starting at 3.4GHz)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/34355.html

Apple needs to be delivering at least a 2.4GHz machine by that time to stay in the ballpark.

The Prescott rumors were originally that it would debut at 3.4 GHz and be more efficient (more work per clock cycle). Then the ship dates slipped... and the samples were running at 2.8 GHz recently. Some benchmarks have appeared on the web the indicate Prescott 'Ain't-all-that' in regard to efficiency though they could be fabricated.

Right now, we know that Intel's recent road map puts a 3.6 GHz Prescott on the market around mid 2004, a 3.8GHz Prescott in Q3, and maybe a 4GHz Prescott by the end of the year (if Tejas doesn't supplant it by then).
Most people who follow Prescott don't expect it to ship faster than 3.2 at first, though it could scale up to 3.6 pretty quick.

If Intel and Apple/IBM keep to their road maps, we would be seeing 3 GHz G5s against 3.6 GHz Prescott P4s (no I don't think they will be called P5s since they don't seem to be that radically different from P4). Intel will push it if they need to appear to be ahead of AMD though... even if they initially release Prescott faster than they should.
I'm actually quite happy with the PPC v. x86 prospects over the next year. If a 980 appears late in 2004, we could actually pull away from Intel (and AMD) by the end of next year.

I'm of the opinion that we'll see a big jump in clock speeds on the G5 either in mid Dec [soon!] (which would be discussed at MWSF) or we'll see a big jump in speed early in 2004. If Apple isn't ready to pre-order or ship a speed bump at MWSF, I doubt they'd announce a new machine though. They don't have the same discontent with the desktop that was thick in the air half a year ago.

I think 2.4 to 2.6 is reasonable depending on whether or not IBM has the .09 micron 970s ready.

That's just my opinion though.

macMaestro
Dec 4, 2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by DGFan
I can't answer that with respect to iMovie and FCE. As for PE and iPhoto, they do different things. iPhoto is a browser too and it's probably the case that caching that much information about each image and the thumbnails was filling up a lot of RAM. PE doesn't need to do that normally.

Plus, iMovie and iPhoto are "free" (sort of) so I wouldn't expect the same polish and under-the-hood tinkering to squeeze out every ounce of speed. FCE and PE are stripped down versions of expensive software so it doesn't surprise me that their core functions are fast.

What about Safari? Free, the fastest application on the mac. Apple can do better with iMovie and iPhoto. No doubt about it.

AidenShaw
Dec 4, 2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by ktlx
They should not have to. The 3U should be quad processor capable with options to start with one, two or four processors and increase as need be. Other server companies offer that as standard fare.

A quad needs twice the memory bandwidth of a dual, and to scale should also have at least twice the IO bandwidth. This makes a quad-capable box more expensive per CPU - especially if not fully populated. [BTW, you can have 3 processors as well, they don't have to be powers of two in most systems.]

For example, pricing 3 Dell single CPU systems - all with 1 2.8GHz Xeon, 1 GiB of RAM, and one 36 GB disk.

1U - $3,634 (PE1750 - dual capable, $4,033 with 2 CPUs)
2U - $4,025 (PE2650 - dual capable, $4,424 with 2 CPUs)
4U - $10,563 (PE6650 - quad capable, $25,562 with 4 CPUs)

You'll find the same price structure wherever you look - quads are big bucks! The "quad tax" is very large!

QuiteSure
Dec 4, 2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by whooleytoo
Well, it wouldn't surprise me if Apple were throttling the free iApps to make the pay-for applications appear to be worth the money; it wouldn't be the first time.

But there is no paid "upgrade" to iPhoto, and that's the app that's most frustrating to digital camera owners.

DGFan
Dec 4, 2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by macMaestro
What about Safari? Free, the fastest application on the mac. Apple can do better with iMovie and iPhoto. No doubt about it.

They can but would it be worth the money? They already sell a fast, feature rich product to replace iMovie. And iPhoto, while it should be faster, is clearly a consumer level item. A thousand photos is a lot for an average user. It doesn't surprise me that iPhoto slows down under that load. If you're a pro (or heavy user) get pro software. It's not that expensive.

Safari is just plain different. They took a good open source project and tweaked it, then made it Apple. Not really comparable.

DGFan
Dec 4, 2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by QuiteSure
But there is no paid "upgrade" to iPhoto, and that's the app that's most frustrating to digital camera owners.

Not all software needs to come from Apple. iView Media starts at $29.95.

QuiteSure
Dec 4, 2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by DGFan
And iPhoto, while it should be faster, is clearly a consumer level item. A thousand photos is a lot for an average user. It doesn't surprise me that iPhoto slows down under that load. If you're a pro (or heavy user) get pro software. It's not that expensive.


What would you recommend that has the same or similar functionality as iPhoto?

Besides, iPhoto plays very importantly into the .mac program. While I understand your point, to abandon iPhoto would be to lose a lot of the .mac functionality that I DO pay for.

coumerelli
Dec 4, 2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by DGFan
A thousand photos is a lot for an average user. It doesn't surprise me that iPhoto slows down under that load. If you're a pro (or heavy user) get pro software. It's not that expensive.


I am not a pro user, you wanna know what I have? A sony DSC-P7 Cyber-shot and a 20 month old daughter, put those two together with iPhoto and you got yourself 1,449 pictures in less than 12 months. iPhoto is slow. Can't wait to see how large the lib will be once she starts joining dance and sports.

In short, I disagree.

jayscheuerle
Dec 4, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by DGFan
A thousand photos is a lot for an average user.

Lord No!!

The beauty of digital photography is that you can (and do) click away with abandon because there's no processing. We've had our camera less than 6 months and seldom use it and we've got 1200 photos!

Of course, if we edited out the crap... :D

DGFan
Dec 4, 2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by coumerelli
I am not a pro user, you wanna know what I have? A sony DSC-P7 Cyber-shot and a 20 month old daughter, put those two together with iPhoto and you got yourself 1,449 pictures in less than 12 months. iPhoto is slow. Can't wait to see how large the lib will be once she starts joining dance and sports.

In short, I disagree.

That's why I said "pro (or heavy user)". I really do think 100+ photos a month is a lot. iPhoto should handle large collections better, but that *is* a large collection.

QuiteSure
Dec 4, 2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Lord No!!

The beauty of digital photography is that you can (and do) click away with abandon because there's no processing. We've had our camera less than 6 months and seldom use it and we've got 1200 photos!

Of course, if we edited out the crap... :D

This whole discussion tells me that we're going to see iPhoto optimized for Panther and with customizable libraries.

O yea, bring it on Baby!!!!:p

jayscheuerle
Dec 4, 2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Free doesn't mean an app has to be cheap.

Inexpensive doesn't mean hardware has to be cheap either. I've heard people here assert that Apple would never lower themselves to selling a base-headless machine that could compete price-wise with Dell's offerings. That's elitism talking there. Apple could easily design a classy low-cost machine the way that Michael Graves designs inexpensive pieces for Target.

On the left is his $125 tea-kettle for Alessi. The one on the right is $25 at Target. The $100 difference isn't obvious to me...

ktlx
Dec 4, 2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by AidenShaw
A quad needs twice the memory bandwidth of a dual, and to scale should also have at least twice the IO bandwidth. This makes a quad-capable box more expensive per CPU - especially if not fully populated.

That is true, although the Dell case you cite is a bit exaggerated compared to others. For example, a Sun Fire v240 with two processors and four drives is $7K list while a Sun Fire v440 with two processors and four drives is $10K list. A Sun Fire v440 with quad processors and four drives is $16K list.

But like I said, if Apple wants to get serious about going after the enterprise, they need to have a quad processor system in addition to a dual processor one. As long as Apple only makes dual processor servers they will not be able to build their market share.

There are lots and lots of enterprise applications for which a single quad processor outperforms two dual processor servers and at a much lower maintenance cost.

silvergunuk
Dec 4, 2003, 02:46 PM
It's that time of year when all the wild speculations come out from all sorts, so heres mine.

G5 will be dual 2.5, dual 2.2 and dual 2.

Powerbooks break in at 17 inch 1.6 G5 (liquid cooling system), 15 inch 1.6 G5 (liquid cooling system), and 1.4 G4 12 Inch.

Imacs speed up to 1.4 G4 20 inch, 1.25 G4 17 inch and 15 inch Is Discontinued.

Apples Own version of Office with Keynote, iWrite (Word), i$pread (excel).

Monitors 30 inch, 25 inch and 20 inch.

iLife gets updated with iTunes 5 supports music store for Europe, Australia, Asia and Canada (although this might be announced in april with new iPods). iPhoto gets new filters and few more options. iMovie gets some stuff from FinalCut Express. iDVD supports Dual layered DVDs.

FinalCut Express gets more stuff from Pro.

rog
Dec 4, 2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by illumin8
You need more memory! Don't say the iApps are slow if you're only running 256 MB... Put at least 512 in there then tell me if it's still slow. I have a 1.25 Ghz 15" AlBook with 1GB of RAM, and all the iApps are very fast.

I don't know. When I've played with even the DP 2GHz in the Apple store, iPhoto was embarassingly slow on that with 512MB and no other programs running. iTunes is not slow however even on my DP 867.

hayesk
Dec 4, 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle

On the left is his $125 tea-kettle for Alessi. The one on the right is $25 at Target. The $100 difference isn't obvious to me...

Well, it costs $100 to pay someone to buff that kettle so it's nice and shiny! ;)

Seriously, without knowing what each are made of and how well they're put together, it's hard to tell. I just bought a $140 frying pan. (ok, it was on sale for half-price) - but I know it's going to last and cook better than a $10 pan that looks just like it.

hayesk
Dec 4, 2003, 03:06 PM
A thousand photos is a lot for an average user. It doesn't surprise me that iPhoto slows down under that load. If you're a pro (or heavy user) get pro software. It's not that expensive.


Uhm... no it isn't at all. I got a digi camera in the summer and haven't used it much at all. 1000 photos is a lot for a film camera. But with digital, part of the advantage is you can try out many different photos quickly and cheaply. You can get to 1000 very quickly.

But please, point me to a pro-equiv of iPhoto that doesn't cost too much.

applekid
Dec 4, 2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by mystixman
Think anything new will come out?

Exactly what I'm worried about. Either Apple has finally shut the rumor mills out and is able to plan some big things or Apple has nothing up its sleeves for a little while longer. Personally, I think all we'll see is yet another Panther demo and some speed bumps here and there, with price changes, and maybe a nifty new program. G4s are staying for one more year, IMHO.

But, Apple needs some G5 updates if it wants to stay in the ball game. These new benchmarks are not looking good. Either Apple changes some hardware like using a RAID HD instead of SATA or we need some fast G5s now.

ffakr
Dec 4, 2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by AidenShaw
A quad needs twice the memory bandwidth of a dual, and to scale should also have at least twice the IO bandwidth. This makes a quad-capable box more expensive per CPU - especially if not fully populated. [BTW, you can have 3 processors as well, they don't have to be powers of two in most systems.]

For example, pricing 3 Dell single CPU systems - all with 1 2.8GHz Xeon, 1 GiB of RAM, and one 36 GB disk.

1U - $3,634 (PE1750 - dual capable, $4,033 with 2 CPUs)
2U - $4,025 (PE2650 - dual capable, $4,424 with 2 CPUs)
4U - $10,563 (PE6650 - quad capable, $25,562 with 4 CPUs)

You'll find the same price structure wherever you look - quads are big bucks! The "quad tax" is very large!
this is missleading.
A quad system in Apple's case would need a chipset that supported more HT-like links for more than two processors. Maybe they could add this logic fairly cheaply, maybe not.
A quad system doesn't automatically need double the bandwidth of a dual though. G5s have a lot of bandwidth already. It depends on what the server is doing really. Some applications could use as much bandwidth as possible, others wouldn't care so much... reasonably fast is usually better than a network connection between two dual nodes. The nice thing about the extensive use of HT is, it might not be that hard to double the bandwidth to the memory though. It probably wouldn't be a monumental task to move the memory controller to support 4way configs and then double the bandwidth to the main system hub.

There are a few things that would affect pricing of an Apple quad. Among them:
- R&D.. how much work to make a quad capable chipset... what are the volumes expected.. how long to get ROI on that R&D investment?
- physical components.. more CPUs, more of this and that
- extra engineering of the product. Quad servers are always going to be in mission critical roles. You need real redundant power supplies (our quad capable dells had 3 power supplies). Quads usually have quite a bit of internal disk space too (they often host databases). If you have to engineer in a lot of extra redundancy, more storage, faster (Ult320 RAID) storage I/O, and the like, you have higher costs.
- cost/demand curves. Enterprised EXPECT to pay more for quad processor machines. They will pay a premium for them too. If your cost for the hardware and R&D is $4000, and you sell them for $6000 which moves 1000 units a year... that's $2,000,000 per year in profit.
If you assume that people who NEED quad processor server will buy them even if they are expensive.. and you expect to sell only 750 units at $10,000 (same cost), you'll be looking at slightly higher per unit cost (R&D amoritized over fewer units) but you margin will be huge. You may be looking at a yearly profit more like $4,000,000 instead of $2,000,000.

Bottom line is, Apple will (to a good extent) charge what the market expects for a quad processor server at a certain performance/feature level.
If it's a bare, single PowerSupply cluster node it will be a lot cheaper than a full fledged SCSI based DB server, but it still won't be cheap because a) it will perform better than two dual processor servers when crunching data, and b) people expect to pay a good amount for quad servers.

... but just imagine what a quad 2.5 GHz could do. Just one on a fast backbone could be the hidden workhorse for Media developers, Code developers... It'd be impressive to see a dozen developers on GigE using xCode with a quad G5 hidden in the closet.

DGFan
Dec 4, 2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by hayesk

But please, point me to a pro-equiv of iPhoto that doesn't cost too much.

I use iView Media Pro (which does cost a fair amount). They do offer a cheaper product called iView Media for $29.95

found here:

iView (http://www.iview-multimedia.com/products/media/index.html)

I don't know how well the cheaper version works with large catalogs but Pro works quite well with even huge catalogs (100k+ images). The cheaper version is limited to 8000 per catalog (but it's easy to have multiple catalogs).

It's a free download so you can try it out.

Also try stopping by dpreview.com and visit their Mac Software forum. You'll find threads there discussing lots of other options.

nologo
Dec 4, 2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
At MacWorld I expect the following:

Apple annouces iTunes Music Store in Australia, Japan, Canada, and select countries in Europe.



Yes!

Originally posted by ITR 81
Jobs annouces they will be taken over some un-named company.


Um.. you mean... "Jobs announces Apple will have taken over some un-named company?"

Or do you mean "Jobs announces they will be taken over by some un-named company?"

It could potentially be either, haha.

A very perplexing statement indeed...

snofseth
Dec 4, 2003, 05:26 PM
I hope they make a 12 or 13 wide screen wide screen just seems cool but are they usefull for someone like me who just uses word and web surfing right now my 12 powerbook is pretty good it would be nice if they could get it under 4lbs that would be awesome
I also hope apple anounces a new apple works or maybe even an office, but if its over 150 that would be no good that is way to much, but rignt now apple works is not as good as word but i dont like word eaither it would be awesome if apple came out with a pro office apple works seems like consumer office If they could make that standard on the powerbooks that would be awesome it seem right now that you get more software if you buy an I instead of power it should be the other way they atleast should have better warrenties, but I doubt any of this will happen with bundling or a better warrenty if you need office and apple care right now and non student that like 600 dollars that is way to much at most in the pc world it would be 300 and that is way to much come on apple that is just rediculous

legion
Dec 4, 2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by applekid
Either Apple changes some hardware like using a RAID HD instead of SATA or we need some fast G5s now.

A bit of correction... RAID is how you use the drive and SATA is a method of connecting and bussing drives. RAID does not actually connect the drives physically, it's just a mode of operation. Hence, there are no "RAID" hard drives. You could have a RAID hardware controller (far better than the concept of software RAID) but it still works with a connection method (usually SCSI, but now there are hardware RAID solutions using SATA and FW)

QuiteSure
Dec 4, 2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by snofseth
I hope they make a 12 or 13 wide screen wide screen just seems cool but are they usefull for someone like me who just uses word and web surfing right now my 12 powerbook is pretty good it would be nice if they could get it under 4lbs that would be awesome
I also hope apple anounces a new apple works or maybe even an office, but if its over 150 that would be no good that is way to much, but rignt now apple works is not as good as word but i dont like word eaither it would be awesome if apple came out with a pro office apple works seems like consumer office If they could make that standard on the powerbooks that would be awesome it seem right now that you get more software if you buy an I instead of power it should be the other way they atleast should have better warrenties, but I doubt any of this will happen with bundling or a better warrenty if you need office and apple care right now and non student that like 600 dollars that is way to much at most in the pc world it would be 300 and that is way to much come on apple that is just rediculous

I think punctuation is awesome!:D

AidenShaw
Dec 4, 2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by legion
You could have a RAID hardware controller (far better than the concept of software RAID) but it still works with a connection method (usually SCSI, but now there are hardware RAID solutions using SATA and FW)


Ummm. You might want to consider FC! ;)

snofseth
Dec 4, 2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by QuiteSure
I think punctuation is awesome!:D
I dont believe in puctuation plust to lazy to plus not very good at it

AidenShaw
Dec 4, 2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by snofseth
I dont believe in puctuation plust to lazy to plus not very good at it


Not caring about punctuation, spelling, grammar and syntax means that you don't care about communication.

I don't care to read your poorly thought out, poorly worded, poorly spelled drivel. Goodbye - you are the weakest link.

~Shard~
Dec 4, 2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by QuiteSure
I think punctuation is awesome!:D

Damn, you stole my line! Ah well, great minds think alike... :cool:

~Shard~
Dec 4, 2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by snofseth
I dont believe in puctuation plust to lazy to plus not very good at it

Yah, using commas and periods is such a pain and so complicated... :rolleyes:

And how does someone become "not very good" at spelling and grammar? The only people I know like this are 2 of my cousins - and it's because they're only in Grade 1.

You don't believe in punctuation? (or "puctuation", as you call it). Then you don't believe in language or communication. Hmm, can't say I know too many people who say that! Ah well, what can you do when you're that excessively lazy...

Thanks for the amusement though, that was just what I needed! :cool:

splashman
Dec 5, 2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Whatís the point of these apps if they arenít going to be the best of breed? Again behavior I expect from Microsoft NOT Apple.

Heh heh. Best-of-breed for free? Be honest, you're really my teenage nephew, right?

Apple has delivered what some consider to be the best-of-breed jukebox, and they're giving it away. Why? Out of the goodness of their hearts, just like MicroShaft? ;) Apple's execs have been very upfront about their strategy: they produce software to sell their hardware. FCP by itself has sold oodles of high-end boxes. The music market is much different, of course, with tons of decent free stuff available. So they invest heavily in iTunes and give it away with the belief they'll make it back with their fat margins on iPods. Groovy.

So tell me why they should sink tons of money into making the rest of the iLife apps best-of-breed? So they can ruin sales of DVDSP and FCE? In general, the iLife apps already beat most of the apps that come bundled with Windoze boxes in the area most important to the average consumer: ease of use. "How quickly can I actually get something done?" Can you point me to a Windoze hardware & software Movie combo that is as foolproof to set up and use as an iMac & iMovie? iDVD? iPhoto?

Granted, Apple has some work to do on iPhoto re: large libraries, and everybody always wants more features, but for the average consumer -- Apple's target market for iLife -- they've done extremely well, IMHO.

Most reasonable people (and even a few teenagers) don't expect best-of-breed for free. View iTunes as a gift, not as evidence that you're being screwed.

whooleytoo
Dec 5, 2003, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by QuiteSure
But there is no paid "upgrade" to iPhoto, and that's the app that's most frustrating to digital camera owners.

That's very true, and I don't think Apple will release a 'pro' iPhoto either. For the photo cataloging, there's scarcely a need for two different apps; and for more advanced photo retouching, there already are Mac solutions out there. iPhoto certainly is one app that could use a Panther-esque jump in speed.

kangaroo
Dec 5, 2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by DGFan
I use iView Media Pro (which does cost a fair amount). They do offer a cheaper product called iView Media for $29.95

found here:

iView (http://www.iview-multimedia.com/products/media/index.html)

I don't know how well the cheaper version works with large catalogs but Pro works quite well with even huge catalogs (100k+ images). The cheaper version is limited to 8000 per catalog (but it's easy to have multiple catalogs).

It's a free download so you can try it out.

Also try stopping by dpreview.com and visit their Mac Software forum. You'll find threads there discussing lots of other options.

I just took a quick look at the iView site and I didn't see anything about print services. What's your experience with this and how do you go about printing your stuff?

I like the option of using iPhoto and the PC/ofoto.com print services.

I agree that iPhoto is too slow and should get a speed boost. My expectations for the iLife products is low. I understand that these are shoehorn products to get you either on to the platform and/or to upgrade to more powerful siblings. In the case of iPhoto, they should offer a 'pro' version so that we have an option.

Also, a number of you are expressing an interest in an alternative to MS Office. It would be nice if Apple could pull that off but even the idea of it seems daunting. The Office apps are seasoned, feature rich and interoperate nicely.

DGFan
Dec 5, 2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by kangaroo
I just took a quick look at the iView site and I didn't see anything about print services. What's your experience with this and how do you go about printing your stuff?

I like the option of using iPhoto and the PC/ofoto.com print services.

I agree that iPhoto is too slow and should get a speed boost. My expectations for the iLife products is low. I understand that these are shoehorn products to get you either on to the platform and/or to upgrade to more powerful siblings. In the case of iPhoto, they should offer a 'pro' version so that we have an option.


I recently purchased a Canon i960 and use Photoshop Elements to print my images. I have not tried printing using iView Media Pro. Nor have I used any print services. I do know that local stores (Wal-mart at least) now let you bring in a CD of images for professional printing. I don't know how cost effective this is.

Originally posted by kangaroo
Also, a number of you are expressing an interest in an alternative to MS Office. It would be nice if Apple could pull that off but even the idea of it seems daunting. The Office apps are seasoned, feature rich and interoperate nicely.

Office is decent but it could use some improvements. The *real* problem with Office v.X is that it doesn't handle Unicode properly. Create a Word or RTF document on XP with Cyrillic characters. Now open that document on your Mac in Textedit. It displays correctly. Now open that document in Word v.X. The Cyrillic characters will be garbage. If the chosen font does not have Cyrillic characters (or other Unicode groups) the proper behavior is for the editor to display them using another font from the same family (for those characters only). Office v.X does not do this.

I recently stopped using Entourage because, unfortunately, it only interoperates with Office. I don't want to be stuck maintaining two sets of address books, calendars, etc.... It would be nice if Entourage was simply another window on the same data.

Office v.X needs work. I hope Apple comes out with a good alternative.

rdowns
Dec 5, 2003, 10:03 AM
[i]

Also, a number of you are expressing an interest in an alternative to MS Office. It would be nice if Apple could pull that off but even the idea of it seems daunting. The Office apps are seasoned, feature rich and interoperate nicely. [/B]

I don't see Apple doing an Office suite. Makes no sense, would kill them in office environments where MS Office is entrenched. MS makes a boat load from the Mac division, Apple should beware of pi**ing them off with a competitor to Office. As one who has to use a PC at work, the ease of interoperabilitry between Office platforms is most welcome.

supertex
Dec 5, 2003, 10:47 AM
Yikes...for Apple to come out with something that was on par with Office for Windows would be specfreakingtacular. Even though Office v.X allows us to use Microsoft's file formats, it's features are way behind Office 2003, Outlook's contact management is lightyears ahead of Entourage. (granted 2003's goodies appeal mostly to IT professionals running big networks) Give it Office 2003 compatibility, a comparable feature set, and don't do like Microsoft and require servers and all sorts of server software to use half the goodies like sharepoints and Information Rights Management. IMHO, If Apple could do that, then that would be the software release of the decade.

splashman
Dec 5, 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by supertex
Yikes...for Apple to come out with something that was on par with Office for Windows would be specfreakingtacular. Even though Office v.X allows us to use Microsoft's file formats, it's features are way behind Office 2003, Outlook's contact management is lightyears ahead of Entourage. (granted 2003's goodies appeal mostly to IT professionals running big networks) Give it Office 2003 compatibility, a comparable feature set, and don't do like Microsoft and require servers and all sorts of server software to use half the goodies like sharepoints and Information Rights Management. IMHO, If Apple could do that, then that would be the software release of the decade.

Ain't gonna happen, for two reasons. First, while everyone agrees Office is bloated and buggy, it's also indispensable in the real world. Why should Apple invest in attempting a replacement (no guarantee it will be widely adopted) when MS is already doing it?

Second, you're dreaming if you think Apple currently has the resources (people and money) to create a compatible and relatively full-featured Office Suite. Like it or not, MS has invested huge amounts in Office, and Jobs' RDF can't materialize millions of lines of code from thin air.

The ONLY reason Apple would ever consider such a project is if they got wind of an MS plan to kill Office. And that ain't gonna happen either. MS makes too much money from the Mac, and the anti-trust people would rip them a new one.

supertex
Dec 5, 2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by splashman
Ain't gonna happen, for two reasons. First, while everyone agrees Office is bloated and buggy, it's also indispensable in the real world. Why should Apple invest in attempting a replacement (no guarantee it will be widely adopted) when MS is already doing it?

Second, you're dreaming if you think Apple currently has the resources (people and money) to create a compatible and relatively full-featured Office Suite. Like it or not, MS has invested huge amounts in Office, and Jobs' RDF can't materialize millions of lines of code from thin air.

The ONLY reason Apple would ever consider such a project is if they got wind of an MS plan to kill Office. And that ain't gonna happen either. MS makes too much money from the Mac, and the anti-trust people would rip them a new one.

Okay, then how do we light a fire under Microsoft to offer us a comparably featured Office suite? Why aren't the anti-trust people after them for making a clearly inferior version of Office to run on the Mac? That seems pretty malicious to me...

johnnyjibbs
Dec 5, 2003, 06:31 PM
I have MS Office. I think it looks a lot nicer than the Windows version and has just about all the functionality (plus special features that take advantage of Mac OS X - eg. Quicktime transitions in PowerPoint and transparency) but WHY THE SHORT FILENAMES? And why does it sometimes slow to a snail's pace?

splashman
Dec 6, 2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by supertex
Okay, then how do we light a fire under Microsoft to offer us a comparably featured Office suite? Why aren't the anti-trust people after them for making a clearly inferior version of Office to run on the Mac? That seems pretty malicious to me...

Those are reasonable questions.

My guess is that if enough Mac users make requests for a specific feature, the MacBU will (eventually) add it -- along with a few new bugs. :) But a request for "feature parity" will be ignored. Why? Because Gates (not the MacBU) has a vested interest in keeping MacOffice hamstrung; namely, Apple's inroads into enterprise threatens MS's cash cow (Windows seats). Unfortunately, compared to a drastic move like dropping Office entirely, this "70% of Office" strategy isn't likely to set off the anti-trust alarms. Such is life for the underdog.

Trust me, I feel your pain. I do a lot of Powerpoint work, and I'm seeing bugs in v.X that have been there since Office 4.2! And there are new bugs (or features -- hard to tell the difference) that simply astound me. It's hard to believe the MacBU programmers are deliberately making our lives miserable, but it sure seems that way sometimes.

splashman
Dec 6, 2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
I have MS Office. I think it looks a lot nicer than the Windows version and has just about all the functionality (plus special features that take advantage of Mac OS X - eg. Quicktime transitions in PowerPoint and transparency) but WHY THE SHORT FILENAMES? And why does it sometimes slow to a snail's pace?

Just curious -- I've been avoiding the Quicktime transitions and variable transparency because they don't translate cross-platform, and my work has to be portable.

The first time I tried it, then moved the show to my Windoze box, all the transitions went to defaults, and transparencies went to 0%.

Is your experience different than mine? Or do you not have to worry about cross-platform portability?

Sunrunner
Dec 6, 2003, 05:26 AM
The Macworlds are great, its like Christmas at least another two times a year. (rubs hands together in anticipation)

johnnyjibbs
Dec 6, 2003, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by splashman
Just curious -- I've been avoiding the Quicktime transitions and variable transparency because they don't translate cross-platform, and my work has to be portable.

The first time I tried it, then moved the show to my Windoze box, all the transitions went to defaults, and transparencies went to 0%.

Is your experience different than mine? Or do you not have to worry about cross-platform portability?
I found that when I did a PowerPoint presentation, it worked fine on the PC. They provided a PC laptop for me to install my presentation on, but it didn't look as nice on the PC (naturally) and it used Arial because they didn't have Optima (that I'd used) on the PC system. The transitions weren't there obviously. However, I took my PowerBook in and asked if I could use that. I plugged it in and worked instantly! I think overall there is a good lot of cross-compatibility in Office - not everything works exactly the way you want so be sure to try it out on a PC system before using it (especially when using Mac only stuff!).

I'd like to get Keynote but then I'd have to take my Mac in to do presentations for it to be worth it!