Belief in God linked to low IQ?

[Queso]

And before anyone starts I'm not just being inflammatory. Richard Lynn, Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the University of Ulster is publishing a study about it. From the article:-

Professor Lynn told Times Higher Education: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

The Times (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402381&c=2)

Discuss :)

[stevento]

oh puh leeze.
what if said "gun violence linked to ethnicity", you'd be up in arms.

[kabunaru]

I heard about this before somewhere. It does seem that Atheists/Agnostics are the top level. My friend is an atheist who is very smart and is a logical thinker. Nobody I know is like him. He did say that religion lowers a person's intellect.

[macEfan]

I know many highly educated people who still believe in God. I say that study was created just to create a stir.

[floriflee]

The paper - which was co-written with John Harvey, who does not report a university affiliation, and Helmuth Nyborg, of the University of Aarhus, Denmark - cites studies including a 1990s survey that found that only 7 per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God. A survey of fellows of the Royal Society found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God at a time when a poll reported that 68.5 per cent of the general UK population were believers.

So are all intellectuals members of these two organizations? Perhaps, the organizations themselves draw a specific type of crowd, but I'm not sure they provide an adequate sampling of the intellectual population as a whole. It seems to me that the study is skewed--especially when you take into account how many people believe in some form of a supreme being compared to those who consider themselves atheists. Odds are there are going to be a lot more people in the religious group with lower IQs than in the group of atheists just because of the sheer numbers. I'd be interested to know more about exactly how this study was conducted, what information was taken into account, and how the statistics were generated.

[obeygiant]

And before anyone starts I'm not just being inflammatory.

You? Inflammatory about religion? Say it isn't so! :eek:

[leekohler]

So are all intellectuals members of these two organizations? Perhaps, the organizations themselves draw a specific type of crowd, but I'm not sure they provide an adequate sampling of the intellectual population as a whole. It seems to me that the study is skewed--especially when you take into account how many people believe in some form of a supreme being compared to those who consider themselves atheists. Odds are there are going to be a lot more people in the religious group with lower IQs than in the group of atheists just because of the sheer numbers. I'd be interested to know more about exactly how this study was conducted, what information was taken into account, and how the statistics were generated.

I would agree. This seems flawed to me.

[Queso]

You? Inflammatory about religion? Say it isn't so! :eek:
Seriously, for once I just wanted to throw something out there ;)

I actually think the good Professor is just trying to make a bigger name for himself. From my point of view his methodology is deeply flawed, for reasons floriflee has already pointed out.

[dukebound85]

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

Einstein has a low iq obviously as are many other smart people
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html


what a stupid proclamation

[Queso]

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)
Einstein doesn't actually say there that he believes in any form of god. The way I read it he's saying he is religious in attitude towards understanding the unknown.

[JoshLV]

I realize that this is just a study, but it's ridiculous. I believe in God and I graduated high school with a 4.6 GPA and got a 34 on my ACT. Personal belief has nothing to do with IQ.

[dukebound85]

Einstein doesn't actually say there that he believes in any form of god. The way I read it he's saying he is religious in attitude towards understanding the unknown.

i read it as he is releigious in the sense that there is a greater power at play, whter it be the Christian God or not

either way, i dont think he believes that everything is just here for the sake of being here

[JoshLV]

Einstein doesn't actually say there that he believes in any form of god. The way I read it he's saying he is religious in attitude towards understanding the unknown.

"I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are just details." -Albert Einstein.

[it5five]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

and

In a letter to Eric Gutkind in 1954 Einstein said: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

Both Einstein.

[Queso]

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervour is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.
Seems like he wasn't particularly bothered either way doesn't it? :p

[JoshLV]

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions. I was giving the the quote to back his statement up. I don't have a response to the second part to your post, because you edited it too quickly.

[themadchemist]

So are all intellectuals members of these two organizations? Perhaps, the organizations themselves draw a specific type of crowd, but I'm not sure they provide an adequate sampling of the intellectual population as a whole. It seems to me that the study is skewed--especially when you take into account how many people believe in some form of a supreme being compared to those who consider themselves atheists. Odds are there are going to be a lot more people in the religious group with lower IQs than in the group of atheists just because of the sheer numbers. I'd be interested to know more about exactly how this study was conducted, what information was taken into account, and how the statistics were generated.

Just for reference...The National Academy of Sciences and the Royal Society are elite scientific organizations to which people are accepted only by invitation (and it's a really big deal to get invited).

I think this has bearing on the matter here. It's a very small sample size, first of all, so that's problematic. It by no means is a representative group of "all intellectuals," but it does probably gets you at the smartest scientists out there. So one might argue that the very very brightest in science tend not to believe in God. But that's only one data point; if you want to draw a correlation, you'd really like to see a broad set of IQs and a correlative percentage of religious belief. The article linked claims that this can be seen to some extent in Gallup polls.

Even if all that were true, the confounding variables are staggering. "Academic elites" are not simply the most intelligent, they are also disproportionately those who had the most opportunity--I would bet they come from higher socioeconomic classes, majority populations, etc. Couldn't that status have an impact on the lower religiosity?

Alternatively, as one person in the article stated:


David Hardman, principal lecturer in learning development at London Metropolitan University, said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt intuitions."


But perhaps this isn't even true. These "academic elites" are affected by exposure to education. If we presuppose that they are very intelligent, their intelligence set them on a different set of life experiences vis a vis education than those who are supposed to be less intelligent (or, as I argue above, less privileged). That exposure could be the cause of reduced religiosity, instead of the actual matter of intelligence. This is a big cultural point. I think that today's academic institutions, for better or worse, are much more infused with a disbelief in God than they once were. If we go back to the Enlightenment, some of the smartest folks of the time and really, of all time, were quite religious (though this sort of anecdotal claim on my part is neither here nor there--sample size is too small). My guess, without this being testable, is that the educated elite once had a stronger belief in God because the institutions to which they belonged were more prone to encourage such a belief. So it might not be that the very intelligent are more able to reject the confines of overarching institutions; it might, instead be, that the institutions to which they are exposed have a different set of cultural values than society at large. The individuals themselves, in this case, may be just as susceptible to buying into institutional notions.

And then the final glaring point is that this is probably all affected by one's field. The two organizations described above are, of course, organizations of scientists. My feeling is that scientists, for a variety of conceptual and historical reasons, have a higher rejection of the idea of a God than do those in other fields. Therefore, I doubt that data for scientists (particularly a very small subset of the most elite scientists) can yield conclusions that are at all generalizable, even to academia, let alone to all those with a "high IQ."

Interestingly this woman has apparently previously published work about the correlation between IQ and race/sex. I must admit that I haven't read her work, but considering the topics she chooses to explore, my hunch is that she hasn't quite wrapped her mind around the concept of "confounding variables."

[pooky]

I realize that this is just a study, but it's ridiculous. I believe in God and I graduated high school with a 4.6 GPA and got a 34 on my ACT. Personal belief has nothing to do with IQ.

This statement is a little ridiculous. Science, statistics, and logic do not work this way.

The study (flawed or not) is claiming that people with higher IQs tend not to believe in god. The existence of someone somewhere (i.e. you) with a presumably high IQ (based on your academic achievements) who also believes in god does not speak to the validity of the study's conclusions.

Many people fall into this trap. To use an example, it's like claiming that since your grandfather lived to be older than your grandmother, the science claiming that women live longer than men must be false.

Finally, I would point out that your (presumably recent) high school graduation hardly puts you on a footing equal to members of the National Academy. Many people excel in high school, but it takes a long, extremely distinguished career to make it onto the Academy. Perhaps, with your natural talents, if you gained the life experience equivalent to an Academy member, you would find that you no longer believed. In fact, it would be an interesting question to find how many members of the Academy believed in god at one point, then changed their minds. Few people are born atheists.

Generally, I suspect much of the criticism of this study is based on the fallacious claim that members of these two institutions are representative of people with high IQs in general. This is indeed problematic. While it is very likely that these scientists have high IQs, they also have a huge amount of life experience that even your average genius cannot claim. A more interesting study would be one that directly measures IQ, but also includes education, family education, economic status, parents' religious beliefs, and other factors that may be indicative of belief or nonbelief. While I am not sure what they would find, I have a guess.

Many people have used this (somewhat dubious) correlation between education/intelligence and atheism to imply that theism is somehow indicative of some educational or mental deficiency. I find this dubious, at best. I think, instead, that atheism represents a choice to defy social norms (most people believe in god). This correlation is a result of the fact that people with more education and more innate intelligence are more likely 1). to even think to defy norms (many people never think to question what they take for granted) and 2). to have the bravery to defy a social norm in public. In summary, being religious says nothing one way or the other about your background. On the other hand, being an atheist most likely indicates you have made a conscious, intellectual choice to defy a social norm, something that may be linked to education or intelligence (or something else linked to those things).

[zioxide]

People with lower IQs also tend to be Republicans :p

[dukebound85]

People with lower IQs also tend to be Republicans :p

hey now i resent that comment :p

[63dot]

i know a few high iq types who are definitely atheists and i don't know of any religious people in their intellectual category from my list of friends i have, and that's probably the case everywhere, especially with scientists usually being atheists more than not

but if someone has a high iq and they may be a phd or hold a master's, who cares if they, and in the usa they comprise of less than 20% percent of the population, don't believe in god

a much larger number of people believe in god and their vote in november is just as valid as a smart person's vote

about an equally small percentage of us use macs, and is there any way we can make an influence in the world of software titles, for instance, or even influence the computer hardware business?

elitism is stupid and just because somebody is smarter than the next person, it does not make them more important and in a democracy, especially, it does not make their voice any louder or more influential

[JoshLV]

People with lower IQs also tend to be Republicans :p
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa47/IIJoshIII/hippiebr.jpg
Yeah, and democrats are just geniuses.

[Desertrat]

I'm willing to accept the conclusion that the percentages for belief in God shift with IQ, but that's a "So what?" sort of thing. That one believes in God does not mean by default that one is of lesser intelligence.

For anecdotal fun, I can track two branches of my own family tree way, way back. The Rev. Witherspoon was hired to be the boss of the College of New Jersey, which later became Princeton. Descendants started William & Mary College and Emery University. You can see his signature on a rather important document. :) The Fertsch family merited a Coat of Honor, in Germany; one was the religious advisor to some head of state. Fast forward to PhDs and meritorious track records in life for parents and grandparents. My parents didn't do too shabbily, nor have I. The more recent generations have never been what you'd call religious, but I know of no atheists in my background. Me, maybe I've spent too much time in desert canyons at night to believe that Homo Sap is all there is.

I'm no Gott-betruncken menschen like Spinoza, but Omar the Tentmaker had a pretty good idea about "He who threw us down upon this field..."

:), 'Rat

[sushi]

Personal faith and believe in God is not the same as the institution called religion.

As for the IQ being related to faith, I find that preposterous.

[CalBoy]

I know many highly educated people who still believe in God. I say that study was created just to create a stir.

Yes, you may know "many" people who are both educated and religious, but the fact is, most educated people are not overly religious, even when they are not in the scientific fields.

I'd also like to point out that education ≠ high IQ. There are plenty of only moderately smart individuals who are able to achieve a high level of education, especially because a PHD requires good research skills and the ability to write clearly; neither of which must be tied to IQ specifically. Those things can be done through hard work and laborious editing.

I realize that this is just a study, but it's ridiculous. I believe in God and I graduated high school with a 4.6 GPA and got a 34 on my ACT. Personal belief has nothing to do with IQ.

Surely then you realize that you are but one person, and the preponderance of those in your intellectual class (high GPA and ACT) are not religious and are more likely to be atheists.

You should also realize that your views might change as you leave high school (I assume that you are still in or recently graduated from high school because you quoted your ACT score). Your exposure to new ideas, and notably to scientific facts, might compel you to rethink your long held beliefs.

[iShater]

As for the IQ being related to faith, I find that preposterous.

+1 that!


And aren't those science groups typically not religious anyways?

[dukebound85]

Yes, you may know "many" people who are both educated and religious, but the fact is, most educated people are not overly religious, even when they are not in the scientific fields.

or how about you may know "many" people who are educated and not religious, and the fact is that there are just as many probably who are educated and religious

i dont know for certain what the percentage is that are educated and religious and i doubt you know too

please correct me if im wrong

[63dot]

or how about you may know "many" people who are educated and not religious, and the fact is that there are just as many probably who are educated and religious

i dont know for certain what the percentage is that are educated and religious and i doubt you know too

please correct me if im wrong

i guess you can call me a fundie, but a staunch democrat and a liberal, to be fair and from what i can see, many (but not all) right wing fundies find enough solace in god and the bible, and many a religous or spiritual born again right winger, decide not to educate themselves in the ways of the world, or fill themselves with the wisdom of man and the world

knowledge of god's word is enough so few that i know of feel the need to go after that advanced education

i will not deny that my christian friends, who are mostly right wing, have little regard for college outside of seminary school

...and it's a rare instance when i see a true believer, democrat or republican, who is a fundie to go for that graduate education in science

i do know of one conservative christian who got his graduate school education in marine biology and he totally believes in evolution, as he must as it is key in his field of study, and he just basically says, "it's god's process" and i totally accept that explanation

...but he is definitely the rare exception rather than the rule being a graduate degree holder and a very active born again christian

[mithrilfox]

There are a LOT of reasons why some things are correlated, but correlation does NOT equal causation.

How is it that people still don't clearly understand that? They teach it to everyone in the high schools I've been to and taught at; it's a basic concept of math, economics, and logic.

For example, I know a person who makes a correlation into a bad causation. This is very controversial and rude, but he (not I) believes that black people (of African descent) are more likely to commit crime. Why? Cause he looks at the statistics.

What he failed to realize is that the statistics don't show the real situation. Crime is almost ALWAYS linked with poverty or low-income. Why would some people be in a low-income area more than others? They are not necessarily, mostly Caucasian areas of low-income are also crime-ridden. What is the connection? Poverty/low-income is often correlated with crime. NOT race. It just happens that because of various circumstances from the past (including a lot of unfair treatment), some people end up in low-income areas more than others. That's unfortunate.

But NEVER confuse correlation with causation. It's never a smart thing to do. So who has the IQ problem again? :p

[mithrilfox]

Surely then you realize that you are but one person, and the preponderance of those in your intellectual class (high GPA and ACT) are not religious and are more likely to be atheists.

You should also realize that your views might change as you leave high school (I assume that you are still in or recently graduated from high school because you quoted your ACT score). Your exposure to new ideas, and notably to scientific facts, might compel you to rethink your long held beliefs.

I am not the person you replied to, but my example is similar.

I got a high GPA and high ACT score (upper 10% of the whole US in reading comprehension). I did well all throughout college and graduated with honors. I am often labeled a "think too much" kind of guy, and people say I "study too much." High school was a decade ago for me. College is years behind me.

Yes, I re-thought my beliefs. No, they didn't change, other than some variance within the belief system (went from Arminianism to Calvinism; look it up if you don't know).

We should be looking at a lot of other factors that may weight far more heavily than religious convictions (concerning the IQ factor).

[motulist]

Just to clear this up, Albert Einstein did not believe in a personal creator-God.


I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)


http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Theology-Albert-Einstein.htm

[Xander562]

oh puh leeze.
what if said "gun violence linked to ethnicity", you'd be up in arms.

It's not they're stupid because they believe in god, it's they're stupid and they believe in God. There happens to be a higher percentage of the God-believing population that is stupid than the non-believing population. (According to the people who published the study.)It's a very important distinction.

[Xander562]

Odds are there are going to be a lot more people in the religious group with lower IQs than in the group of atheists just because of the sheer numbers. I'd be interested to know more about exactly how this study was conducted, what information was taken into account, and how the statistics were generated.

Isn't this the beauty of percentages? It does not compare sheer numbers as a whole. e.g. 5 apples vs 2 apples you would say the first group has more. This is true but it is not relative to the population. 5 apples out of 10 fruits vs. 2 apples out of 2 fruits is a whole new comparison. It relates the amount of fruit to the total amount of fruit. Or in our case the percentage of High-IQ individuals that believe in God vs the percentage of Low-IQ individuals that believe in God.

[Iscariot]

correlation =/= causation.

I think a better explanation involves the community of (in)education that surrounds religious fundamentalism. If you were to strike fundamentalists from the list, I bet you would find the figures to be far less slanted.

[Gelfin]

If I were to take a stab at explaining the correlation, I wouldn't base it on IQ. Granted one must be generally brilliant to be in the NAS or the RS, but what's more important is that they are among the finest scientific minds in the world.

Science is naturalism reduced to practice, and thus the finest scientists must tend towards a naturalistic world view. Not only that, but they are trained and inclined to reject even the most appealing hypotheses when evidence fails to support them, or worse, when a falsifiable hypothesis cannot be presented at all.

I am not sure if the wonder is that the percentage of non-atheists in these organizations is in the single digits, or that there are any non-atheists at all.

There are, however, a great number of staggeringly brilliant people out there who are neither scientists nor atheists.

[motulist]

If I were to take a stab at explaining the correlation, I wouldn't base it on IQ. ...


I am not sure if the wonder is that the percentage of non-atheists in these organizations is in the single digits, or that there are any non-atheists at all.

There are, however, a great number of staggeringly brilliant people out there who are neither scientists nor atheists.


I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. (pun intended!)

Perhaps people with higher IQs also generally have better jobs, more money, and more personal security than people with low or average IQ. So perhaps it's not high IQ which leads to a disbelief in a theist-God, perhaps a disbelief in a theist God is promoted by one of the secondary results that a high IQ leads to.

As mentioned above, correlation does not prove causation.

[Gelfin]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. (pun intended!)

Perhaps people with higher IQs also generally have better jobs, more money, and more personal security than people with low or average IQ. So perhaps it's not high IQ which leads to a disbelief in a theist-God, perhaps a disbelief in a theist God is promoted by one of the secondary results that a high IQ leads to.

As mentioned above, correlation does not prove causation.

Absolutely not suggesting mine was the only possible explanation. I was just throwing it out there as an alternative to just "IQ," which is really pretty poorly defined anyway.

Also, while correlation does not imply causation, it does imply correlation, particularly when it's very strong correlation. Sometimes this aphorism gets abused on the Internets to suggest that correlation is not significant or that it never admits of explanation. All it means is that there are often many plausible explanations beyond the one that first springs to your mind, particularly when the one that springs to your mind just so happens to agree very closely with a political opinion you held beforehand.

[yojitani]

As for the IQ being related to faith, I find that preposterous.

Or, for that matter, the idea that the IQ is a measure of 'intelligence' is preposterous (and outdated).


[Edit: This appears in the THE, not the Times. Big difference... one that I overlooked!]

[.Andy]

Requesting more offended religious people post about their outstanding high school and college grades.

[themadchemist]

Requesting more offended religious people post about their outstanding high school and college grades.

I'm assuming that among this pool won't be the half-wit psycho-sociologists who conceive these silly studies?

[skunk]

The classification is so broad, vague and unquantifiable as to be utterly meaningless. Probably thought up by some stupid atheist.

[thechidz]

do you realize how much education goes into becoming a reverend?

[Iscariot]

do you realize how much education goes into becoming a reverend?

http://cgi.ebay.com/BECOME-A-REVEREND-ORDAINED-MINISTER-PERFORM-WEDDINGS_W0QQitemZ290237647145QQihZ019QQcategoryZ16710QQcmdZViewItem

[Gelfin]

http://cgi.ebay.com/BECOME-A-REVEREND-ORDAINED-MINISTER-PERFORM-WEDDINGS_W0QQitemZ290237647145QQihZ019QQcategoryZ16710QQcmdZViewItem

See, I've learned something new already, and I didn't even have to buy it.

[solvs]

I suspect some are misunderstanding what the study is saying. While others have tried to clarify, the point is still missed that this doesn't mean everyone who's smart is an atheist, nor are all atheists smart. Also going to point to the term tend. There are those with lower IQs (which has nothing to do with your grades in school BTW) who are more likely to gravitate towards religion to understand the universe, while there are those with higher IQs who tend to question things more. There are plenty of things in the middle and even extremes that disprove the rule. But it's not a rule anyway, just an observance.

And I'm no Einstein, but I partially share his belief of god as concept, not construct.

[BillyBobBongo]

What an utter load of tosh!

I know so many highly educated people that believe in God. It is true, as previously mentioned, that it tends to be the scientific community that have no belief in God...but of course it's easy to find those in science that do believe!

Now....with all that said....this study means nothing to me since it's based on IQ, which is an completely idiotic system to measure intelligence.

[obeygiant]

Obama is a christian. I guess he's just a big fraking idiot. LOL

[Queso]

Obama is a christian. I guess he's just a big fraking idiot. LOL
As is McCain. The US is doomed, DOOMED I say!!! :eek:

[obeygiant]

As is McCain. The US is doomed, DOOMED I say!!! :eek:

Oh crap! We might as well make a suicide pact. Lets say, hmmm. noon tomorrow?

[Queso]

Oh crap! We might as well make a suicide pact. Lets say, hmmm. noon tomorrow?
**Books flight to Hawaii**

[.Andy]

http://cgi.ebay.com/BECOME-A-REVEREND-ORDAINED-MINISTER-PERFORM-WEDDINGS_W0QQitemZ290237647145QQihZ019QQcategoryZ16710QQcmdZViewItem
Awesome :D.

While your credit card is out you can also pick up a PhD here at the hilariously named Patriot Bible University. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Bible_University)

Esteemed alumni include the incarcerated Kent 'Dr Dino' Hovind.

[pdham]

Requesting more offended religious people post about their outstanding high school and college grades.

I found this very humorous. I am glad that the irony of using anecdotal evidence about personal intelligence to counter a study which used sample data wasn't lost on anyone.

Anywho, as Christian (and hopefully reasonably intelligent) I have no problem with this study. As others have said it addresses correlation not causation, and given the sample population it looked at the results are hardly surprising.

The study did however remind me of how unique the church I attend is. I go to a small Christian Reform church in Madison, Wisconsin right on the UW campus. Our congregation of about 200 is heavily skewed towards PhDs, Scientists, Professors, etc. We are also very liberal. I am not really trying to make a point with this little story; I guess just that circumstances such as location, affiliation, etc. have a huge impact on the demographic and psychographic make-up of any organization; including churches.

[Queso]

The study did however remind me of how unique the church I attend is. I go to a small Christian Reform church in Madison, Wisconsin right on the UW campus. Our congregation of about 200 is heavily skewed towards PhDs, Scientists, Professors, etc. We are also very liberal. I am not really trying to make a point with this little story; I guess just that circumstances such as location, affiliation, etc. have a huge impact on the demographic and psychographic make-up of any organization; including churches.
Similarly, there was a study a few years back regarding motorcyclists that concluded that all bikers have low self-esteem, low expectations of life and are badly educated. When investigated it turned out the conclusions were drawn by the academic joining a bike club and studying its members. The bikers in question had mostly attended the same school, were all from the same run-down area, and with a high percentage of them having grown up in "broken" homes. Yet he extrapolated his findings out to include every motorcyclist on the planet, just because the sample group all rode bikes :D

[és:]

oh puh leeze.
what if said "gun violence linked to ethnicity", you'd be up in arms.

Well, I thought it was funny. :p

[naftalim]

Having grown up an a very religious environment, I would disagree with the concept of low IQ. First, don't forget that most religious people are born into a religious family, so its not a choice for them, it has nothing to do with IQ.

Many people that join cults are very smart people, you don't see a lot of truck drivers in cults. I would however strongly suggest that people who "find religion" later in life are looking for someone to give them answers to life.

Some very smart people join cults, in large part because they are looking for a formula. That is, if you just do this, or wear this, or chant this, your life will be perfect, when imperfection is built into life. There is no formula. This concept is so powerful for some people, that in a case like Heavens Gate in California, when their leader told them that a spaceship was coming to get them, they all put on their Nikes and committed suicide so as to be ready to be picked up. Scary and sad.

[63dot]

Having grown up an a very religious environment, I would disagree with the concept of low IQ. First, don't forget that most religious people are born into a religious family, so its not a choice for them, it has nothing to do with IQ.

Many people that join cults are very smart people, you don't see a lot of truck drivers in cults. I would however strongly suggest that people who "find religion" later in life are looking for someone to give them answers to life.

Some very smart people join cults, in large part because they are looking for a formula. That is, if you just do this, or wear this, or chant this, your life will be perfect, when imperfection is built into life. There is no formula. This concept is so powerful for some people, that in a case like Heavens Gate in California, when their leader told them that a spaceship was coming to get them, they all put on their Nikes and committed suicide so as to be ready to be picked up. Scary and sad.

very good point

i think a lot of so-called uneducated christians (and there are tons of them, and more being that the education community is intent on darwinism) don't need to find anything bigger than the bible, but i say that works towards their advantage

the bible was never intended to answer every question of science and legislation, or many other fields...it was simply a history, mostly, which led to a conclusion of christ being the messiah in jesus of nazareth

some of the smartest people i know believe there is more than just the bible and its slant towards christ being everything, and being smart and questioning everything as is their nature, they do look for a more perfect religion and many fall into the trap of some door to door cult or some hollywood star driven cult which really all end up being businesses with regular members doing all the work for free...now how smart is that?

it is truly ok for someone to both get highly educated and get their science degree but at the same time have a religion...the two don't contradict each other

there is nothing in science i have heard so far that says they have a problem with what jesus did when he was on this planet

how does evolution, which i believe in, have anything to do with the compassion christ had on his fellow man?

and now that we live in a society that has realized that the world is round and not flat, how does that change the flavor of how jesus ran his ministry? does that make jesus a person who was any less kind?

and let's say we find ufo's some day? does that mean that god didn't create this planet, whether it be a literal seven days or a godly process of evolution and natural selection?

it is the few, but vocal (fringe) christians, who give the religion/faith a bad name by insisting ufo's are demons in spacecraft, or that america's tolerance for gays caused 9/11, or that interracial dating is sinful, or even that one needs to repent if they voted for john kerry in 2004

the vast majority of christians are moderate and live in the modern world, work in a variety of jobs, and are still able to believe in christ...and same goes with other religions, too

[63dot]

what i would like to see one day is a scientific community that accepts people of faith who believe in a god or spiritual, non-proveable system

one scientist, and a watered down computer scientist at that, told me a belief in god is the death knell for one's career as a professor

my master's degree friend who is a marine biologist found it hard to be a christian, and a former catholic priest who is pro life, and get the full respect he deserves...in the end, he left the field

it should not matter that a scientist is a deist, no more than if they are female or are gay (the latter two are accepted by the scientific community)

there is no indication that deists are going to take over the scientific community and turn over all control to some archbishop or moral majority leader to censor and modify

science will only move forward that much better if all types of scientists are accepted, atheists and deists alike

i can't see how a scientist's personal belief in god will affect his/her research towards, let's say, a cure for cancer, or a better way to accomodate real estate developments with the least impact on the environment, or a more perfect weight loss plan for the legions of obese

[floyde]

Having grown up an a very religious environment, I would disagree with the concept of low IQ. First, don't forget that most religious people are born into a religious family, so its not a choice for them, it has nothing to do with IQ.

Many people that join cults are very smart people, you don't see a lot of truck drivers in cults. I would however strongly suggest that people who "find religion" later in life are looking for someone to give them answers to life.

Some very smart people join cults, in large part because they are looking for a formula. That is, if you just do this, or wear this, or chant this, your life will be perfect, when imperfection is built into life. There is no formula. This concept is so powerful for some people, that in a case like Heavens Gate in California, when their leader told them that a spaceship was coming to get them, they all put on their Nikes and committed suicide so as to be ready to be picked up. Scary and sad.

I strongly disagree here, there's absolutely nothing smart about joining a cult. Like you say, there is no formula to life. People who are truly smart can figure this out. In my humble opinion, a person who looks for an infallible formula to life is not very bright (specially if the formula involves comets and alien spaceships). That said, I do think the study seems flawed.

[zap2]

oh puh leeze.
what if said "gun violence linked to ethnicity", you'd be up in arms.

gun violence is linked to social class.

ethnicity has nothing to do with it, but if a large amount of one "ethnicity" is living in poverty, then then gun violence will be come a problem in the community, which is largely one ethnicity (in our example), and people might confuse the two. But the issue starts in social class.


And what does that have to do this the OP's post?

[zap2]

it should not matter that a scientist is a deist, no more than if they are female or are gay (the latter two are accepted by the scientific community)


The latter to are unrelated to the scientist's work....the belief in something with no prove is the opposite of science. Scientists look for proof that something exists, if one of the guiding beliefs of a person is something based on no proof, that seems like a problem to me.(in this case)


i can't see how a scientist's personal belief in god will affect his/her research towards, let's say, a cure for cancer, or a better way to accomodate real estate developments with the least impact on the environment, or a more perfect weight loss plan for the legions of obese

I don't think it would be HUGE an issue with someone working for a cure for cancer, unless her or she was so religious he or she thought pray was the answer.

The idea is there isn't a rule against it, its just frowned about because its so counter intuitive to the goal of science.

[powerbuddy]

Richard Lynn who? Oh yeah, the guy who said women/black people were 10-20 IQ points behind white men -or- we must genetically select kids to make the human race more superior and "phase out" inferior races and groups. Lynn is a not a scientist, he is a racist pioneer fund eugenicist quack. Go read the drivel he publishes. His work is purely meant for the BNP.

~I am a an atheist btw. :o

[63dot]

The latter to are unrelated to the scientist's work....the belief in something with no prove is the opposite of science. Scientists look for proof that something exists, if one of the guiding beliefs of a person is something based on no proof, that seems like a problem to me.(in this case)


i don't think christianity is the opposite of science...christianity belives jesus christ died for humanity on the cross, and how does that hurt science?

i don't think christianity is saying, "let's not learn more about the world and have progress stand still"

jesus died on the cross so that believers may have everlasting life, not so that science should never move forward from that point forward

there are extremists like ben stein who liken scientists to genocide and nazi experiments, and he really gives the religious right a bad name, that and his insistence saying that nixon was the best president ever ;)

[63dot]

Richard Lynn who? Oh yeah, the guy who said women/black people were 10-20 IQ points behind white men -or- we must genetically select kids to make the human race more superior and "phase out" inferior races and groups. Lynn is a not a scientist, he is a racist pioneer fund eugenicist quack. Go read the drivel he publishes. His work is purely meant for the BNP.

~I am a an atheist btw. :o

so if he looks at all the iq stats, and brain capacity stats, then he should want all the world to be chinese ;) ... i think he would then have to change his name to ree-cha-lin, or more properly lin-ree-cha (not a racist joke since i am east asian but i have a lot of asian jokes and considered a stand up comedy career but harold and kumar beat me to it...he he...but that's for a different thread)

what is ironic is that some white supremacists read "some" of the iq stats and use it to promote their white, northern european agenda

however, the highest iq holders are asians, with east asians leading that group, and at the very top of the list are white, but eastern european jews, and i wonder how white supremacists view that?

iq, first of all, is not any good indicator, and is still, at most considered half genetic, with the other half (or more) being environmental

iq is more of an individual thing, and not based on the person's race at birth

[naftalim]

I find the battle between creationists and evolutionists somewhat baffling. I beleive in God, and I beleive that God created the earth and all in it to evolve. This was the intention.

I don't however beleive in religion, that is man-made and the source of massive pain and suffering worldwide for centuries, and still is. I find it ironic when someone says " I am a very devout person, and I will kill you because you are either not as devout as me, or you don't read the same "holy" book as me.

When I said people who join cults are smart, I meant that these were often people with an education, had strong math or even science skills (Heavens Gate is an example) In fact, I would bet that many of these people would score very high on IQ tests.

However smart does not mean common sense.

I am a high school dropout, but if someone comes to me and says, listen, quit your job, sell your home, give me the money so I can buy 99 Rolls Royces while you sell flowers for me, I would tell him that I am afraid of spaceships, so, sorry, can't accomodate you here. :), but if you can get me a good deal on a dozen roses, I might buy them.

[skunk]

I find the battle between creationists and evolutionists somewhat baffling. I beleive in God, and I beleive that God created the earth and all in it to evolve. This was the intention.Which god?

[naftalim]

Good question, the demi-God :)

I'm Jewish, so I guess I lean towards the Jewish interpertation. I am not religious at all, and see God more in everyday life than in prescribed rituals, books or chants.

Which god?

[Gray-Wolf]

I believe in God, and his Son Jesus. My IQ is 129.

[srf4real]

Thank God I'm dumb.;):cool:

[63dot]

I find the battle between creationists and evolutionists somewhat baffling. I beleive in God, and I beleive that God created the earth and all in it to evolve. This was the intention.

I don't however beleive in religion, that is man-made and the source of massive pain and suffering worldwide for centuries, and still is. I find it ironic when someone says " I am a very devout person, and I will kill you because you are either not as devout as me, or you don't read the same "holy" book as me.



i totally agree with the intention part in the first statement above

however, about religion, in the next statement, any truly devout person wouldn't kill outside of basic self defense...where in any major religion does a crusade or a 9/11 find justification?

a killer is simply a killer and their true belief is shown in their criminal actions

[iJohnHenry]

I believe in God, and his Son Jesus. My IQ is 129.

I am a paltry 117, but I am 20 years senior to you.

I win.

:p

[CalBoy]

I believe in God, and his Son Jesus. My IQ is 129.

I am a paltry 117

Somewhat off topic (though not entirely if you know what I mean) but where did you guys take your IQ tests and when?

[Iscariot]

Awesome :D.

While your credit card is out you can also pick up a PhD here at the hilariously named Patriot Bible University. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Bible_University)

Esteemed alumni include the incarcerated Kent 'Dr Dino' Hovind.

I'm keeping a herd of Chameleons in an x-ray proof ice shield. You're going to be soooooo jealous when I'm riding around on a triceratops.

[KingYaba]

As for the IQ being related to faith, I find that preposterous.

Great vocab word.

[.Andy]

Somewhat off topic (though not entirely if you know what I mean) but where did you guys take your IQ tests and when?
At their Mensa meetings.

I'm keeping a herd of Chameleons in an x-ray proof ice shield. You're going to be soooooo jealous when I'm riding around on a triceratops.
I will be :(. Triceratops are my favorite dinosaurs....sorry bohemouths.

[skunk]

Triceratops are my favorite dinosaurs....sorry bohemouths.Is that a cross between a Bohemian and a behemoth?

[.Andy]

Is that a cross between a Bohemian and a behemoth?
Careful. I'll put you on ignore.

[solvs]

christianity belives jesus christ died for humanity on the cross, and how does that hurt science?
It doesn't, but it is being used by a vocal minority to push their agendas, and unfortunately science and higher learning can be casualties for obvious reasons.

Guessing some of you are still missing the actual hypothesis and conclusions of this, as noted above, which is kinda ironic if you think about it.

[Gray-Wolf]

Somewhat off topic (though not entirely if you know what I mean) but where did you guys take your IQ tests and when?

Back in high school, 77-78 school year, senior testing. Plus 3 on-line test that ran from 127-130

[CalBoy]

Back in high school, 77-78 school year, senior testing. Plus 3 on-line test that ran from 127-130

Yes, I think that rather unequivocally settles the matter doesn't it? ;)

[63dot]

Back in high school, 77-78 school year, senior testing. Plus 3 on-line test that ran from 127-130

there are so many iq tests out there, but to match yourself up with the older folks on a fair playing field, the online stanford-binet iq tests used by ets and ctb/mcgraw hill, among others, is a fair one

it's not the easiest test, nor is it the hardest, but it was at one time the standard iq test for many baby boomers

my guess, but i don't know for sure, is that you took the stanford-binet test as the score sounds above normal to nearly gifted but closer to the latter

the online tests which give most people a 180, 200, or higher are a bunk of baloney

unfortunately, there is no way to get an equal playing field with the more important sat since it downgraded itself several times and now does not use the 1600 point system :)

[iJohnHenry]

Somewhat off topic (though not entirely if you know what I mean) but where did you guys take your IQ tests and when?

I don't feel angst about going off topic, as you have probably already noticed.

Mine was at age 17 (1957??), I think, and they were trying to figure out why I was screwing up so much in High School. Never did get all my credits, and they said "don't come back". So, I started working.

At 30, I was asked if I would be interested in switching careers, which required 2 days of an industrial psychologist time, to vet my worthiness for the switch.

They gave me "personal development on a level with university graduates", but they did not proffer a number.

I got the job.



[Anuba]

Discuss :)
Well, Einstein believed there is a god and he wasn't exactly Forrest Gump. I don't think it's a telltale sign of dubious mental faculties to believe in some manner of higher power. I also think a lot of people freak out at the thought of being dead for eternity and use organized religion to plug up that unpleasant black hole, even though they privately roll their eyes at certain aspects of said religion.

But if you truly believe that the patchwork of incoherent and contradictory fairytales known as the Bible is actually the word of God, you are incapable of critical thinking. And sadly, this appears to be a widespread trait. I mean, according to an ABCNews poll, 60% of US residents believe the story of Noah's Ark to be literally true -- literally -- when in fact it's littered with an abundance of mind numbing plot holes and scientific implausibilities of such epic proportions, it makes any Ed Wood movie look like a masterpiece. If you're able to let that story rape your common sense with a jackhammer and it still escapes your scrutiny, chances are your bulb doesn't have much of a socket.

[motulist]

Well, Einstein believed there is a god and he wasn't exactly Forrest Gump.

Apparently you haven't read what's already been written in the thread, as that myth about Einstein has already been brought up and completely disproved.

[Iscariot]

Apparently you haven't read what's already been written in the thread, as that myth about Einstein has already been brought up and completely disproved.

IMG:Quote Mining

[Anuba]

Apparently you haven't read what's already been written in the thread, as that myth about Einstein has already been brought up and completely disproved.
I said he believed in a god, some manner of higher power. Christians who chalk Einstein up for their team are wishful thinkers indeed, but so are atheists such as myself.

He considered himself an agnostic rather than an atheist:

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

"You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

You have to understand that his vehement denial of the existence of god refers to the Christian god, and that all those quotes have to be seen in context of his lifelong dialogue with the Christian world, which he viewed as the principal antagonist of the scientific world he represented. It's clear from the above statement that he considered atheism to be yet another instance of the human mind purporting to know what it cannot now. He simply felt that the human mind is too feeble to determine whether higher powers exist or not, ergo it cannot determine the existence of such a power nor its non-existence, and therefore he chose to keep an open mind.

[63dot]

But if you truly believe that the patchwork of incoherent and contradictory fairytales known as the Bible is actually the word of God, you are incapable of critical thinking. And sadly, this appears to be a widespread trait. I mean, according to an ABCNews poll, 60% of US residents believe the story of Noah's Ark to be literally true -- literally -- when in fact it's littered with an abundance of mind numbing plot holes and scientific implausibilities of such epic proportions, it makes any Ed Wood movie look like a masterpiece. If you're able to let that story rape your common sense with a jackhammer and it still escapes your scrutiny, chances are your bulb doesn't have much of a socket.

those things in the bible that happened outside of what we consider reality...noah's ark, the parting of the red (reed) sea, and all of the miracles of jesus, and to believe them without proof is what faith is

nothing i know of in my faith is something that can be proven, otherwise it wouldn't require faith

even the idea of intelligent design, whether it be god, gods, higher power, mother nature, whoever, still does not compute logically, and it won't be in our lifetimes that intelligent design is proved or disproved

mostly i get comfort in believing in a higher power though i know i will never be able to prove it to others, and the strength i get from believing in a high power is very subjective and not really something i can show you without people thinking i actually drew from my own strength and attributed it to a higher power

i think logic is wonderful and i thought it didn't work all the time in religion/faith/spirituality, but in everything else...he he...then i entered law school and discovered a total universe just as illogical as any so-called bible fairy tale ;)

[Iscariot]

a god

agnostic

Agnostic does not equal belief in a God, no matter how non-denominational. Agnosticism posits that the question itself is unanswerable and that if there is a God, he is unknowable. There is no evidence of agnostic theism in Einstein's quotes, including the one you provided. Indeed, there are far more example of Einstein outright dismissing denominational and personal Gods.

Additionally, missing from your quotation (heh)

"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."

(I concede that this is really not a hugely important debate)

[CalBoy]

Mine was at age 17 (1957??), I think,

<snip>


They gave me "personal development on a level with university graduates", but they did not proffer a number.

I got the job.


Yes, I think that sums up all I needed to say about claims of IQ in this thread...

Should anyone like to believe the veracity of your precise IQ number claim, I'm sure that IQ will be but one of their problems.

[blackfox]

Although perhaps the proper thing to do would be just abstain from posting - I can't help but post:

This is a ************ thread.

I say this because I can't possibly see anything meaningful coming out of it. I certainly don't want to see people post their IQ scores - and it should be common knowledge that idiots believe a bunch of things - as do "smart" people.

Intelligence is multifaceted- and sometimes acute. I am sure there are physicists who can't change a tire...or negotiate a fair deal. What is there to talk about?

[.Andy]

Intelligence is multifaceted- and sometimes acute. I am sure there are physicists who can't change a tire...
This is true. I once had a friend who was a physicist who tried to change a tyre on a hill. The car rolled back over him :(.

[Cromulent]

i read it as he is releigious in the sense that there is a greater power at play, whter it be the Christian God or not

either way, i dont think he believes that everything is just here for the sake of being here

He is saying that science and maths are beautiful and that appreciation of them is close to religious love and adoration. It has nothing to do with God or any spiritual being.

The clue is when he says "in this sense, and this alone". There is nothing even remotely religious in that statement.

Edit : Balls just noticed this thread is 4 pages long and I'm late to the party :(.

[Mackan]

I don't find it particulary logical to believe in a God through the religions that we humans have created, and know of today. Being able to think logical, and respond rationally to well put arguments, is not something I generally associate with believers in God. But I associate it with intelligence.

[zap2]

and it won't be in our lifetimes that intelligent design is proved or disproved
)

Thats already happened...

[psychofreak]

Thats already happened...

No it hasn't

Its impossible to disprove intelligent design, especially with the argument that God (or whoever else) put all contrary evidence in place in order to test faith.

[Cromulent]

No it hasn't

Its impossible to disprove intelligent design, especially with the argument that God (or whoever else) put all contrary evidence in place in order to test faith.

Exactly. You can never disprove an argument with no basis in fact. As the other person can just say "God is outside of the normal rules of the Universe". How can you disprove that?

[Gelfin]

Noting that a claim is specifically constructed so as to escape disproof is a disproof.

[63dot]

you can't disprove intelligent design, so it always comes down to a matter of faith

while i hold my religious views dear to me, i also know that one cannot come to a faith through scientific fact

if any religion were proved or disproved, the argument would fall into the realm of science, not religion

at least in christianity, the main argument scientists should look for are the claims of jesus, not noah's ark or any other story in the old testament...even then, it's hard to prove or disprove what jesus said or did

[Shotglass]

In my experience, belief in God is, if anything, linked to poor social skills. Most Christians I know are absolute losers. Sure, there's cool people that believe in God, and they're all very nice, but yes, most of them are socially awkward losers.

[Beric]

I believe this.

After all, with intelligence, comes pride, and with pride, comes the mistaken belief that God is not needed.

I'd prefer to be wise than intelligent any day. The most intelligent people still walk across a crosswalk against the light and get killed. A wise person doesn't. You can be intelligent and be a complete fool.

[Gelfin]

I believe this.

After all, with intelligence, comes pride, and with pride, comes the mistaken belief that God is not needed.

I'd prefer to be wise than intelligent any day. The most intelligent people still walk across a crosswalk against the light and get killed. A wise person doesn't. You can be intelligent and be a complete fool.

Well it's a darn good thing you aren't burdened with any unnecessary pride.

[Anuba]

I believe this.

After all, with intelligence, comes pride, and with pride, comes the mistaken belief that God is not needed.

I'd prefer to be wise than intelligent any day. The most intelligent people still walk across a crosswalk against the light and get killed. A wise person doesn't. You can be intelligent and be a complete fool.
Wisdom is an accumulation of intelligence applied to experience. Without intelligence you can have all the experience in the world and be none the wiser.

[Beric]

Well it's a darn good thing you aren't burdened with any unnecessary pride.

Well, that's an ad-hominem attack, but whatever. ;)

Anyway, yes, I am too prideful, and have been trying to change that. But it still doesn't change the fact that I'd prefer wisdom over intelligence any day. Despite the fact I seem to be the other way around.

[Beric]

Wisdom is an accumulation of intelligence applied to experience. Without intelligence you can have all the experience in the world and be none the wiser.

Uh... yeah, because a wise person would want to gain some intelligence. However, most intelligent people I know don't seem to want wisdom, unfortunately.

[Gelfin]

Anyway, yes, I am too prideful, and have been trying to change that. But it still doesn't change the fact that I'd prefer wisdom over intelligence any day. Despite the fact I seem to be the other way around.

Don't be so hard on yourself. It's not as obvious as you might think.

In any case, if you want to work on your pridefulness, a good place to start might be not talking about the things you believe only on faith as if they are so certain that your belief in them automatically constitutes superior wisdom, especially if you are doing so in the context of explaining how non-believers' problem is their pridefulness.

[Anuba]

Uh... yeah, because a wise person would want to gain some intelligence.
Is this some chicken or the egg thing? You're not born wise. Wisdom is the judicious application of knowledge. In order to acquire knowledge you need A) information and/or experience, and B) intelligence, in order to process A. Intelligence, of the Latin word intellegere, literally means "choose between", as in choosing between useful and useless information, pros and cons, good and bad, worthy and unworthy. Connecting the dots. The pattern formed equals knowledge. No intelligence, no knowledge to judiciously apply = no wisdom.

[66217]

what i would like to see one day is a scientific community that accepts people of faith who believe in a god or spiritual, non-proveable system


I think in general nowadays this happens. I aren't a scientist, but haven't found a opposition for religious scientists. But then, I live in a highly religious country.

Also remember that in the past, the priests and other religious people had a great participation in the science fields. Many great discoveries or inventions have come from religious people BTW.

one scientist, and a watered down computer scientist at that, told me a belief in god is the death knell for one's career as a professor


It may be true. But if professors dislike religious people, then they are just as wrong as they say the religious people are. They are basically closing themselves from religion and rejecting having diversity and different opinions within their college. After all, that's what college is about, about diversity and different points of view.

Right now I remembered when a university at Rome (forgot the name) denied the Pope to speak there. It was so absurd, that a college denies someone to speak, and then afterwards you hear them talking about liberty of beliefs and thinking, tho it was the students, it appears the director approved of the Pope going. That's when you sometimes see how some people just go against the church blindly and in a completely irrational way.

[Shotglass]

I believe this.

After all, with intelligence, comes pride, and with pride, comes the mistaken belief that God is not needed.

I'd prefer to be wise than intelligent any day. The most intelligent people still walk across a crosswalk against the light and get killed. A wise person doesn't. You can be intelligent and be a complete fool.I learned in youth group that fear of god is the beginning of wisdom. Never knew what to do with that. Always confused the hell out of me. Your statement kinda reminds me of that.

[Queso]

I believe this.

After all, with intelligence, comes pride, and with pride, comes the mistaken belief that God is not needed.

I'd prefer to be wise than intelligent any day. The most intelligent people still walk across a crosswalk against the light and get killed. A wise person doesn't. You can be intelligent and be a complete fool.
So you're actually saying it's more godly to be stupid? Brilliant, that's that one solved then. We just need to stop learning and accept our place, worshipping at the feet of the almighty like the unworthy slime we are :D

[obeygiant]

In my experience, belief in God is, if anything, linked to poor social skills. Most Christians I know are absolute losers. Sure, there's cool people that believe in God, and they're all very nice, but yes, most of them are socially awkward losers.

Please don't hold back your true feelings about them christians. Lets hope you consider the likes of Obama and Clinton "cool".

[skunk]

Never have I seen so many bloody silly generalisations being bandied about. This thread is a car crash.

[63dot]

It may be true. But if professors dislike religious people, then they are just as wrong as they say the religious people are. They are basically closing themselves from religion and rejecting having diversity and different opinions within their college. After all, that's what college is about, about diversity and different points of view.

Right now I remembered when a university at Rome (forgot the name) denied the Pope to speak there. It was so absurd, that a college denies someone to speak, and then afterwards you hear them talking about liberty of beliefs and thinking, tho it was the students, it appears the director approved of the Pope going. That's when you sometimes see how some people just go against the church blindly and in a completely irrational way.

very good point

i truly believe that a university should have open discourse of ideas outside the traditional norm of the scientific method, and should allow for diversity, including religious leaders who may believe the earth is only a few thousand years old and that evolution didn't happen the way most scientists believe it did

there have been some popes who have not had major vocal objections to evolution, or to science, but there is no doubt that sometimes the vatican takes a political stance, pro-life for instance, which may not agree with most universities

the university i went to was founded by a religious organization, as was the rival across town, but neither school had an inkling of their religious belief in their curriculum, and part of that may have been education's disdain for religious discourse...also, unlike many religious schools or schools founded by churches, these two schools were accredited by a secular, regional organization and the only one that holds any weight here in california - western association of schools and colleges (WASC), and they both had secondary, yet important accredidations from the ABA for their law schools...the many other accredidations were pretty much window dressing not looked at by other schools for transfer credit and graduate schools for legitimate entry

even the more religously vocal schools in that organization (WASC) were very careful not to cross any lines

but i did truly enjoy a bible college i went to which wasn't accredited outside of any self accrediting religious organization (like the southern baptists convention, or evangelical union), and my studies there were very rewarding being a christian

[iJohnHenry]

(flame)

Wow, 5 sentences.

At least (WASC) and ABA confirm that your shift key is working.

(/flame)

[63dot]

(flame)

Wow, 5 sentences.

At least (WASC) and ABA confirm that your shift key is working.

(/flame)


:)

that's a terrible habit of mine

i used to use caps and then for eight years i was a techie and all those programming classes made me start using lowercase all the time and getting into useless techie jargon...hey, shouldn't you capitalize the first letter of your name?

anyway, lol, and fwiw, i can blame those stupid internet slang terms to hanging out here too often =)

[Shotglass]

Please don't hold back your true feelings about them christians. Lets hope you consider the likes of Obama and Clinton "cool".Don't know them personally. Mind you, the non-losers ones often found religion through peer pressure. Like Christian parents, friends and so on.

[imac/cheese]

Don't know them personally. Mind you, the non-losers ones often found religion through peer pressure. Like Christian parents, friends and so on.

What is your definition of "loser"?

[Shotglass]

What is your definition of "loser"?Pretty much the mainstream definition. A loser is someone who fails at life. Meaning they have low social status, few friends (or loads of loser friends), they don't quite get what they order in life, have dreams but sit at home eating chips instead of chasing after them. Generally unpleasant, socially awkward, shy and uncomfortable people.
Don't diss my definition, I used to be one myself.

[SMM]

This thread has been running for quite some time, and this is actually the first time I have even read it. I figured it would be fur and feathers flying. So, I was not disappointed.

I do have a couple observations to make. First, the title is misleading, and not true. There are many intelligent people who are believers, in some fashion. My wife would fit into that group.

When a subtenant debate takes place, it usually reaches its lowest common denominator; the belief in God is based on faith. It cannot be proven, and in fact, what can be proven (or at least much better supported), would tend to cast doubts on the existence of a deity. This applies mainly to western religions, including Islam. Many eastern religions do not actually believe in a deity.

Those who do not believe tend to be analytical and/or creative. They are far more likely to view religion from a pragmatic, or scientific perspective. They are usually very intelligent. Those who accept religion on faith, may also be intelligent. However, they do not question the existence of a supreme being. It is just someplace they will not go.

As others have pointed out, upbringing often plays a major role in the formation of religious core beliefs.

Now, these are broad generalities. It is not a case where one size fits all. It would be interesting to see the actual work that went into the researcher's work. If this was presented as a full paper, what we have seen is definitely not complete. The abridged version is not enough to support the conclusions drawn.

Finally, some of you have been dropping the "E" (elitism, elitist) here. This has become a very popular marketing/smear word by the right-wing propagandists. I cringe every time I hear, or read it. We can do better than that.

[Queso]

First, the title is misleading, and not true.
How can a question be true or otherwise? :confused:

[skunk]

How can a question be otherwise?

[Queso]

How can a question be otherwise?
Ah sod it. I'm taking the dog out :D

[imac/cheese]

Pretty much the mainstream definition. A loser is someone who fails at life. Meaning they have low social status, few friends (or loads of loser friends), they don't quite get what they order in life, have dreams but sit at home eating chips instead of chasing after them. Generally unpleasant, socially awkward, shy and uncomfortable people.
Don't diss my definition, I used to be one myself.

To me it is strange that the majority of the Christians you know fit your definition of loser. You must live around a different group of Christians than the ones I have lied around. Even when I wasn't a Christian, I would not have characterized the religous people I knew as losers. Crazy or strange, maybe, or even deluded, but not losers. I do know a handful of what you would call losers and I would not say that any of them have much faith in God, let alone a serious committment to living a Christlike life.

Does anyone else see the majority of their Christian acquaintances sitting around eating chips and continually talking about their +5 vorpal sword?

[iJohnHenry]

Ah sod it. I'm taking the dog out :D

Always a wise choice when the smell of burnt bacon is in the air.

[Shotglass]

Does anyone else see the majority of their Christian acquaintances sitting around eating chips and continually talking about their +5 vorpal sword?Eating chips is one type of loser, +5 vorpal sword is another. They might merge occasionally (okay, all the time), but there's just so many brands of losers...

[solvs]

This thread is making my IQ go down. :p

Don't worry though, it was pretty high, so I think it can take the hit. ;)

[Iscariot]

you can't disprove intelligent design, so it always comes down to a matter of faith

Actually, you can disprove intelligent design, and it has been disproven. Intelligent design puts forth doctrines that are testable, and they have always been found wanting.

[Badandy]

Finally, some of you have been dropping the "E" (elitism, elitist) here. This has become a very popular marketing/smear word by the right-wing propagandists. I cringe every time I hear, or read it. We can do better than that.

Right wing propagandists? Democrats use the word elitist to describe anyone who doesn't think that the rich should be taxed into oblivion. You and your absolute hatred for the right-wing is disturbing, and probably not healthy.

You just said to not group people into such categories as high IQ and low IQ based on faith, but I see you have no problem in other threads with applying huge generalizations to anyone who is a Republican.

[solvs]

Well, I'm not much for such terms, as they don't seem to help the political landscape. Nor do I like when Dem propagandists say things like that. But I'd like to point out he said "right wing propagandists", not Republicans. I don't know if he was trying to say it was everyone in the GOP, which I would disagree with, but there certainly are rightwing talking heads who say such things, often based on nothing. Some of them actual elitists themselves (see the Applebee's salad bar thing). If he's making a distinction about only the actual propagandists misusing the term, I would have to agree.

And people are still missing the point of this study and it's conclusions.

[SLC Flyfishing]

Newsflash....

Blind hatred of religion and spirituality linked to low IQ as well!

[Mord]

Newsflash....

Blind hatred of religion and spirituality linked to low IQ as well!

Lies, Those I know with with very high IQ's (180+) are those who openly mock religion the most. This may well have something to do with their obnoxious autistic spectrum personalities though...

I suppose it's not "blind hatred" as they all have good reasons, as do I :P

[SLC Flyfishing]

News flash.....

Homosexuality, race, and education level linked to low IQ, along with every other belief and practice in existance. Researchers conclude that there are quote: "a helluva lot of dumb people out there, oh and some smart ones too" and are nominated for a nobel prize.

[Queso]

News flash.....
Do you actually have anything of worth to add to this debate, or are you simply throwing around some ire for the sake of it?

[SLC Flyfishing]

Throwing around some ire for now, what of it? It's not as though this topic is deserving of anything more than mockery; if anything, mockery such as mine probably increases the intelligence of the conversation.

This really is the most asinine piece of research, just a bunch of people who can't handle that someone believes in something different than them, their only response to those they can't understand is "Oh yeah, well I'm smarter than you!". That to me betrays something that's obviously lacking mentally with them; and like most "intellectuals" there's probably some serious social deficiency at play too! The researchers probably all got bullied by some religious kid in high school, now it's their turn to get revenge!

Complete foolishness, why even try to pretend otherwise!

SLC

[solvs]

So in other words, you're also completely missing the point.

[Shotglass]

Get off it, he was trying to be funny.

[solvs]

Get off it, he was trying to be funny.

Who is? About what? :confused:

[maestro55]

Faith and IQ I do not believe are on the same table. I am afraid to take a real IQ test because I would be afraid of the results but I am sure that my IQ isn't anywhere above average and I am an atheist and I am sure there are many other atheists with low IQs. It isn't a matter of being smarter than the religious people it is a matter of lacking faith for various reasons.

[takao]

The researchers probably all got bullied by some religious kid in high school, now it's their turn to get revenge!

huh ? ... at least during my time 7-10 years ago it was normal that those get bullied who where ultra religious

and i live in part of my country where the christian conservatives have won every election since 1955

[djellison]

huge generalizations to anyone who is a Republican.

To be honest, at least we have some evidence regarding the link between the election of Republican representatives, and low IQ

http://www.gulbransen.net/images/blog/2004ElectionIQ.png

Does that mean all Republicans are stupid and all democrats are not. No - only a complete moron would say that, or try and assume that that is what someone was trying to say with that sort of information. However, it IS indicative of a general trend, an 'average', a pattern, across a large population. It would be VERY interesting to do the same statistics against the belief in 'a god'

Doug

[Badandy]

I have no problem with that data, I believe it. Of course I think it's correlation, and not causation.

Remember, there are high IQ people who went to prestigious schools that are also morons.

[motulist]

there are high IQ people ... that are also morons.

Actually, by its very definition that's impossible. But I hear what you're trying to say.

[Badandy]

Actually, by its very definition that's impossible. But I hear what you're trying to say.

Haha. I hear that you hear what I was trying to say. :eek:


I'll amend my statement.

There are high IQ people that have so little "common sense" they sometimes behave, and are no better than, morons.

[Queso]

There are high IQ people that have so little "common sense" they sometimes behave, and are no better than, morons.
Which explains politicians :)

[Daveman Deluxe]

To be honest, at least we have some evidence regarding the link between the election of Republican representatives, and low IQ

http://www.gulbransen.net/images/blog/2004ElectionIQ.png


That image is known to be a hoax. It re-appears nearly verbatim every election.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/stateiq.asp
Back in November 2002, someone created and posted to a USENET newsgroup a phony chart which purportedly showed the average IQ per state in the U.S., along with the average income and a column indicating how that state voted in the 2000 presidential election.... save for the average income per state numbers, which were valid but outdated figures taken from the 1994 World Almanac--the chart was completely bogus.

[tjcampbell]

Check out the new Larry Charles / Bill Maher film "Religulous"

Trailer
http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/

Site
http://disbeliefnet.com/

[iJohnHenry]

Check out the new Larry Charles / Bill Maher film "Religulous"

Trailer
http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/

Site
http://disbeliefnet.com/

Check-out the 155 posts here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=502876&highlight=Religulous). ;)