Canadian judge says father can't discipline his child

[CorvusCamenarum]

Story here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080618/wl_canada_afp/canadachildcourtoffbeat)

OTTAWA (AFP) - A Canadian court has lifted a 12-year-old girl's grounding, overturning her father's punishment for disobeying his orders to stay off the Internet, his lawyer said Wednesday.

The girl had taken her father to Quebec Superior Court after he refused to allow her to go on a school trip for chatting on websites he tried to block, and then posting "inappropriate" pictures of herself online using a friend's computer.

The father's lawyer Kim Beaudoin said the disciplinary measures were for the girl's "own protection" and is appealing the ruling.

"She's a child," Beaudoin told AFP. "At her age, children test their limits and it's up to their parents to set boundaries."

"I started an appeal of the decision today to reestablish parental authority, and to ensure that this case doesn't set a precedent," she said. Otherwise, said Beaudoin, "parents are going to be walking on egg shells from now on."

"I think most children respect their parents and would never go so far as to take them to court, but it's clear that some would and we have to ask ourselves how far this will go."

According to court documents, the girl's Internet transgression was just the latest in a string of broken house rules. Even so, Justice Suzanne Tessier found her punishment too severe.

Beaudoin noted the girl used a court-appointed lawyer in her parents' 10-year custody dispute to launch her landmark case against dear old dad.

I have successfully been rendered speechless.

[Gray-Wolf]

It's under appeal, and I hope it gets over ridden. The government says I can't punish my child, they will be given that child to raise and see how long they keep the child. :mad:

[skunk]

Clearly unwarranted interference, but at the same time, if the parents have been engaged in a legal battle ever since the girl was two, they have only themselves to blame if she sees the courts as the natural place to settle family disagreements.

[CorvusCamenarum]

Clearly unwarranted interference, but at the same time, if the parents have been engaged in a legal battle ever since the girl was two, they have only themselves to blame if she sees the courts as the natural place to settle family disagreements.

It would certainly shed a lot of light if we knew from whom/where the girl got the idea to run to the courts.

If this isn't overturned, the precedent it sets is a very scary one for anyone with kids either now or in the future. It basically gives the state the power to enter your home and tell you how and when you may discipline your children, even in the absence of any wrongdoing. How very Orwellian.

Then again, Canada also wants to criminalize spanking (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/19/f-spanking.html).

[SMM]

Disciplining children, and abusing them are completely different. The government needs to get out of the business of telling parents how to raise their children. My parents had no cruelty in them. However, on occasion, they "lowered the boom" on me. I always deserved it, and got away with far more than I ever was caught for.

[Blue Velvet]

Disciplining children, and abusing them are completely different.

No, they're not. I was severely beaten as a child, and in today's climate, it would been seen as abuse. It wasn't then.

[arkitect]

Discipline=abuse?

Caveat: Speaking only for myself, and not wanting to make light of other people's experiences…

I was caned at school pretty regularly — some might even say severely — but that had mostly to do with me mixing up oblatives and optatives… :o

I cannot say I feel as if I was abused.
But then again that was the mid-70s (:eek:) and perhaps I need to go and get therapy to be made to feel that I had been abused…

If my parents had regularly punched me up for being gay and locked me in a cellar, well that would have been abuse.
Giving me a few slaps — if they could catch me — for setting fire to the compost heap… of course I deserved it.
But it taught me. ;) (to be more careful about being found out)

[candan9019]

Then again, Canada also wants to criminalize spanking (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/19/f-spanking.html).

So this is an example of the way Canada is? What about politicians in the States policing TV and video games as a way of the government doing a parents job.

We have extreme Liberal nuts and extreme Conservative nuts in this country just like the US, It's not indicative of how Canada is messed up compared to the US.

Sorry if that's not the way you meant it but I get kinda touchy with the way Americans view Canada.

[skunk]

No, they're not. I was severely beaten as a child, and in today's climate, it would been seen as abuse. It wasn't then.Um, I'm not sure what "lowering the boom" means, but I don't think SMM was necessarily talking about physical discipline at all. Anyway, I think there's a world of difference between a premeditated beating and a "clip round the ear".

[CorvusCamenarum]

So this is an example of the way Canada is? What about politicians in the States policing TV and video games as a way of the government doing a parents job.

We have extreme Liberal nuts and extreme Conservative nuts in this country just like the US, It's not indicative of how Canada is messed up compared to the US.

Sorry if that's not the way you meant it but I get kinda touchy with the way Americans view Canada.

The first part of that post was far more important than the bit you quoted. Taken together, though, it shows a pattern of government usurping parental authority. What's next, Junior suing mommy and daddy for more pocket money?

Had I wanted to be sensationalist, I would have dug up the story from last year of the Canadian boy with three legal parents (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OJX/is_5_31/ai_n25007539).

[candan9019]

The first part of that post was far more important than the bit you quoted. Taken together, though, it shows a pattern of government usurping parental authority. What's next, Junior suing mommy and daddy for more pocket money?

Had I wanted to be sensationalist, I would have dug up the story from last year of the Canadian boy with three legal parents (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OJX/is_5_31/ai_n25007539).

My point was just that it's not only a problem here. These are important issues but they are not an example of an entire country as a whole. There are plenty of instances where government is getting involved in parenting in other countries as well.

I do agree with you though, It's amazing that some of these judges are allowed to pass these decisions. But I wonder what kind of parents these kids have to have such a lack of respect.

[Evangelion]

So, what exactly does "disciplining" mean here? Slapping? Spanking? I for one don't understand this... I mean, if you slap someone, that's assault and wrong. If you slap your child, then it's suddently "disciplining" and OK?

Violence is never the answer. If you can't raise your child without resorting to violence, maybe you should reconsider your options as a parent? You CAN discipline a child without resorting to violence.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"

[marbles]

So, what exactly does "disciplining" mean here? Slapping? Spanking? I for one don't understand this... I mean, if you slap someone, that's assault and wrong. If you slap your child, then it's suddently "disciplining" and OK?

Violence is never the answer. If you can't raise your child without resorting to violence, maybe you should reconsider your options as a parent? You CAN discipline a child without resorting to violence.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"


I couldn't have said it better my self .

Although I do get frustrated with my children I have never hit them ....I just go outside , jump up & down then pull all my hair out :)

[CorvusCamenarum]

So, what exactly does "disciplining" mean here? Slapping? Spanking? I for one don't understand this... I mean, if you slap someone, that's assault and wrong. If you slap your child, then it's suddently "disciplining" and OK?

Violence is never the answer. If you can't raise your child without resorting to violence, maybe you should reconsider your options as a parent? You CAN discipline a child without resorting to violence.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"

If you'd read the article instead skipping straight to the soapboxing, you'd see the father grounded the whiny brat of a girl and decided she couldn't go on her upcoming school trip. A spanking-free and hippie-approved form of discipline that obviously worked incredibly well.

Spanking does not always equal violence or abuse.

[Evangelion]

If you'd read the article instead skipping straight to the soapboxing, you'd see the father grounded the whiny brat of a girl and decided she couldn't go on her upcoming school trip. A spanking-free and hippie-approved form of discipline that obviously worked incredibly well.

I read the quoted text, I did not read the article itself. If it was merely grounding and such, then the judge is obviously way off-base

Spanking does not always equal violence or abuse.

Spanking is violence. You are physically hurting the child, you are causing him pain. Pray-tell, what exactly is the difference between "spanking" and "violence"?

Why should you be allowed to hit your child, when you are not allowed to hit your fellow man? Because "it's for the childs own good?". Well, someone could say that some dude is such a dickhead that beating him up is for his own good. But it's still not allowed.

We are not allowed to hit people who are capable of defending themselves, yet we should be allowed to use physical violence towards people who are dependent on us and who are incapable of defending themselves? Some people are downright sick.

[marbles]

snippet...


Spanking does not always equal violence or abuse.

When ?

I have thought & thought about this but cannot think of one single instance when spanking could not be considered violence .

.
Spanking IS violence ... end of !

[CorvusCamenarum]

Spanking is violence. You are physically hurting the child, you are causing him pain. Pray-tell, what exactly is the difference between "spanking" and "violence"?
Intent. Aiming to correct behavior and aiming to be a sadistic bastard are two very different things. I've been on the receiving end of both sides of it, so I think I'm reasonably qualified to tell the difference. If I actually had to quantify it as it were, I'd probably draw the line physically at bruising and temporally at the pre-teen stage, around 12 or so. And before you ask the corner case, no I don't advocate figuring out the maximum amount of pops before bruising occurs and doing that every time or some other such nonsense.

Why should you be allowed to hit your child, when you are not allowed to hit your fellow man? Because "it's for the childs own good?". Well, someone could say that some dude is such a dickhead that beating him up is for his own good. But it's still not allowed.
You're responsible for your child. Part of that responsibility includes teaching them how to behave themselves. Correcting unacceptable behavior goes along with that. In order for discipline to properly work it needs to be swift, consistent, and sufficiently unpleasant that the next time Junior thinks about doing something he shouldn't do, he'll know what will happen if he does. This isn't much different from how it is in the adult world, except in stead of being swatted on the behind, you get an adult-sized time-out, i.e. jail, and judging by rates of recidivism, that really works wonders. By way of comparison, you're not responsible for Mr. Dickhead's behavior.

We are not allowed to hit people who are capable of defending themselves, yet we should be allowed to use physical violence towards people who are dependent on us and who are incapable of defending themselves? Some people are downright sick.
You're still equating spanking with violence. Let's work on that. Punishment is supposed to be exactly that, not sitting on a stool for 5 minutes and getting a hug and a cookie and talking about your feelings.

[Evangelion]

Intent.

So, if I punch you in the face, it's perfectly OK if my "intent" was to "improve your behavior"? Yeah, good luck with that.

Aiming to correct behavior and aiming to be a sadistic bastard are two very different things.

And for the child, those two can manifest in identical ways.

If I actually had to quantify it as it were, I'd probably draw the line physically at bruising and temporally at the pre-teen stage, around 12 or so.

So, the younger the child is, the more acceptable it is to beat him? I guess that as the kid gets older, he becomes physically able to defend himself, and we can't have that, right?

You're responsible for your child. Part of that responsibility includes teaching them how to behave themselves.

And you can do that without beating him. If you need to resort to violence, you have failed as a parent.

Correcting unacceptable behavior goes along with that.

That can be achieved without violence.

In order for discipline to properly work it needs to be swift, consistent, and sufficiently unpleasant that the next time Junior thinks about doing something he shouldn't do, he'll know what will happen if he does.

And that can be achieved without violence. And shouldn't the child be raised in such way that he will not do bad things because he knows that they are wrong, instead of conditioning him to not do bad things because of threat of violence? In the first case, you teach him morality, in the second, you teach him to huddle in the corner in fear.

This isn't much different from how it is in the adult world, except in stead of being swatted on the behind, you get an adult-sized time-out, i.e. jail

Spanking is, by and large, allowed in USA. And looking at the number of inmates in USA, I would say that your method of educating your children has failed spectacularly.

You're still equating spanking with violence.

Because that's what it is. What exactly is the difference if you hit a child when compared to me hitting you?

Punishment is supposed to be exactly that, not sitting on a stool for 5 minutes and getting a hug and a cookie and talking about your feelings.

Yeah, punishment should be about beating your kids in to submission, right?

[CorvusCamenarum]

Much twisting of words

Since that's all you're going to do, I'm finished with this. This thread isn't about spanking anyway.

[Evangelion]

Since that's all you're going to do, I'm finished with this.

So I assume that you are unable to provide any tangible examples on how violence and spanking are different? I take that as an admission of defeat.

Have fun beating your kids.

[iJohnHenry]

Since that's all you're going to do, I'm finished with this. This thread isn't about spanking anyway.

Now it is.

Some people present obviously still have issues from childhood they wish to discard.

Anyway, perhaps the "judge" would be open to adoption?? :rolleyes:

The mother in this scenario sounds like quite a piece of work. ;)