iPhone 3G rollout potential disaster

[Kwill]

We'll have to see on July 11, but it seems to me that AT&T as well as other wireless service partners may not be quite ready to handle the large product rollout. The volume of customers will be tremendous but activation, contract details, and pricing for "unqualified customers" may frustrate more people as phone companies move away from iTunes activation. Already, the UK is showing signs of distress (http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/06/20/uk.stores..iphone.3g/) and may not be ready by July 11.

Every "definitive" article (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/19/atandt-iphone-3g-199-299-pricing-policy/) written to answer questions generates even more. This will undoubtedly delay customer activation and anger people waiting in long lines.

Are people who sold their 1st generation iPhone and now using another considered current "qualified customers"?
Are so called "unqualified customers" who purchased a 1st generation iPhone from a third party and activated it via iTunes with appropriate SIM now "qualified"?
Suppose the contract for a customer with another carrier ended within the past few months. He transferred to an official iPhone carrier and received a "temporary" subsidized phone in anticipation of the 3G. According to AT&T, he is now labeled an "unqualified customer" for two years. Are his only options to pay an unsubsidized price or purchase a 1st generation iPhone with a 2G contract?
Why can't customers who do not live in an area where 3G is available pay the 2G rates?
Can Apple personal become proficient with carrier contracts details when the carriers themselves outline ambiguous qualification requirements?
If contract terms are not properly understood and explained by Apple personnel, are customers bound by what they sign?
Can Apple personnel run adequate credit checks to qualify customers - taking into consideration such intricacies as past carrier history?
Is it possible that Apple can sell a phone for $199 that AT&T (or another carrier) will not honor and therefore require an additional unsubsidized fee before activation?
Who is responsible for phone repairs - Apple or the carrier?

Though by no means exhaustive, this representative list is compounded by the number of various contracts offered around the world. Carriers complained Apple had too much control before and they didn't like the simplified all-inclusive service price and iTunes activation. Apple wanted to equate iPhone with a computer purchase - pay for it outright and get service through a partner. Now the carriers are taking responsibility for pricing, activation, and service - each using different databases and computer systems to determine "qualified customers."

It may take in excess of 30 minutes to answer the questions of one customer in a line of hundreds. "People, can you form two lines please? All 'qualified customers' on the right and 'unqualified customers' on the left." I just don't think these labels will sit well with people. I smell a public relations disaster with widespread reports of in-store chaos. :eek:

[ipodtouchy333]

This is why they better release them when the stores open and not at 6pm.....

[aristobrat]

We'll have to see on July 11, but it seems to me that AT&T as well as other wireless service partners may not be quite ready to handle the large product rollout.
There is always that potential, but giving that there are three full weeks left until July 11th, I think it's still premature to worry about this.

If the details haven't all been answered by July 7th or 8th, then I'd strongly consider not going on launch day.

But between now and then, I wish people would freaking relax.

[diamond.g]

Why can't customers who do not live in an area where 3G is available pay the 2G rates?



This one is easy, you are not paying for 3G. I repeat you are not paying for 3G. You are paying for a smartphone. I will repeat that one more time, you are paying for a smartphone.

iPhone 2G was not classified as a smartphone. iPhone 3G is. So you are paying for the data use of a smartphone.

[Harley05]

It's all speculation at this time, AT&T has only given general statements. Worrying about the details before they are released is pointless.

[The Doctor]

it was a mess when they released the first iphone, and it will probably be a mess everytime they release an iphone... i am going to wait a few weeks to get my 3G.

[TXCraig]

I have never seen so many questions generated about things that you should be able to answer the yourself:

The whole subsidised price thing is VERY simple. If you have an iPhone now and you were a new customer to AT&T when you got it. You NEVER have received a subsuidised price from AT&T and you will get one on the new phone. ITS VERY SIMPLE. USE YOUR MIND it fingure it out.

The new data fee is NOT A 3G PRICE INCREASE... is just a PRICE INCREASE... so there will not be tiered pricing depending on where you live! USE YOUR MIND!

AT&T ran a credit check on me when I purchased an iPhone on 6/29/07 and it didn't cause the lines not to move.. its not a big deal. If your a current customer... they will give you the phone and send you on your way. You WILL have to active the phone within 30 days... VERY SIMPLE STUFF HERE! Not a big deal!

Don't get all balled up about it.

[aristobrat]

it was a mess when they released the first iphone, and it will probably be a mess everytime they release an iphone... i am going to wait a few weeks to get my 3G.
It was? I don't remember that. People here were posting about being able to walk into an Apple store two hours after the launch and get right in/out -- no line.

[tothelimit]

It was? I don't remember that. People here were posting about being able to walk into an Apple store two hours after the launch and get right in/out -- no line.

i only encountered one real snag in the 'buying process'. the computer system went down for about 30 minutes in the AT&T store i was in right when they starting ringing people up. i was in the first shift of people they let into the store so it wasn't too bad for myself, but the people waiting outside were getting antsy.

...and then i was one of the unlucky people who had the 'verizon porting issue' and wasn't even able to use my phone for 4 or 5 days. but thats another issue ;)

[tritonj]

It was? I don't remember that. People here were posting about being able to walk into an Apple store two hours after the launch and get right in/out -- no line.

people were able to, the whole process was quite painless. everyone seems to get hung up on the fact that everything has to be done at the stores, because they are making you get a contract. in reality that is not the case, true they make you get a contract but activation doesn't have to be done in a store to accommplish this. i point to buying phones online as a prime example. when i buy a phone online, it ships to me and i have to call to activate it when i open the box.

my guess is that when you go to buy the iPhone they will have to pick your plan and get all the information on your phone, like the IMEI number, etc and then send you on your way, the phone is tied to the contract you choose and bam you can activate when you get home

[valleryan]

This one is easy, you are not paying for 3G. I repeat you are not paying for 3G. You are paying for a smartphone. I will repeat that one more time, you are paying for a smartphone.

iPhone 2G was not classified as a smartphone. iPhone 3G is. So you are paying for the data use of a smartphone.

So you're saying the one factor that makes one phone smart and one phone not is 3G? They both have the same software in the phone and are pretty much the same phone. If you don't want to have 3G, but want an iPhone, you should have an option to use the phone with the $20 data package.

Really, what makes a phone considered a smartphone and not is the software and to say that the new iPhone is a smartphone and the old one not is like saying a macbook isnt a computer and a macbook pro is.

In other words, saying that you're paying more this time because this iphone is a smartphone, to me, is not a valid excuse.

[tothelimit]

This is why they better release them when the stores open and not at 6pm.....

i agree completely. i think releasing them in the morning with the opening of the stores would be one of the biggest solutions in regulating the flow of customer traffic. die-hards will still wait in line all night and can be handled all day and people showing up after work will be welcomed by smaller crowds... it just seems silly to try and cram all of an opening day's sales into 4 hours ... again.

[Flhusky]

We'll have to see on July 11, but it seems to me that AT&T as well as other wireless service partners may not be quite ready to handle the large product rollout. The volume of customers will be tremendous but activation, contract details, and pricing for "unqualified customers" may frustrate more people as phone companies move away from iTunes activation. Already, the UK is showing signs of distress (http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/06/20/uk.stores..iphone.3g/) and may not be ready by July 11.

Every "definitive" article (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/19/atandt-iphone-3g-199-299-pricing-policy/) written to answer questions generates even more. This will undoubtedly delay customer activation and anger people waiting in long lines.

Are people who sold their 1st generation iPhone and now using another considered current "qualified customers"?
>AFAIK -Yes, as long as long as you maint'd you iPhone plan.
Are so called "unqualified customers" who purchased a 1st generation iPhone from a third party and activated it via iTunes with appropriate SIM now "qualified"?
>AFAIK -Yes, as long as long as they have an iPhone plan.
Suppose the contract for a customer with another carrier ended within the past few months. He transferred to an official iPhone carrier and received a "temporary" subsidized phone in anticipation of the 3G. According to AT&T, he is now labeled an "unqualified customer" for two years. Are his only options to pay an unsubsidized price or purchase a 1st generation iPhone with a 2G contract?
>NO, they can pay an early term fee and get a sub'd iphone
Why can't customers who do not live in an area where 3G is available pay the 2G rates?
>As stated already, your not paying for 3g service your paying for a data plan which happens to included 3g services.
Can Apple personal become proficient with carrier contracts details when the carriers themselves outline ambiguous qualification requirements?
>Yeah, the sales drones can't even answer those questions and they are 'trained'.
If contract terms are not properly understood and explained by Apple personnel, are customers bound by what they sign?
>Yes, it is YOUR responibility to understand what you sign.
Can Apple personnel run adequate credit checks to qualify customers - taking into consideration such intricacies as past carrier history?
> Much like the sales drones in the AT&T stores they do not run a credit check, they only plug info into a form and the AT&T system spits back the req's to buy a phone.
Is it possible that Apple can sell a phone for $199 that AT&T (or another carrier) will not honor and therefore require an additional unsubsidized fee before activation?
> Anything can happen...
Who is responsible for phone repairs - Apple or the carrier?
Same as it is now?

Though by no means exhaustive, this representative list is compounded by the number of various contracts offered around the world. Carriers complained Apple had too much control before and they didn't like the simplified all-inclusive service price and iTunes activation. Apple wanted to equate iPhone with a computer purchase - pay for it outright and get service through a partner. Now the carriers are taking responsibility for pricing, activation, and service - each using different databases and computer systems to determine "qualified customers."

It may take in excess of 30 minutes to answer the questions of one customer in a line of hundreds. "People, can you form two lines please? All 'qualified customers' on the right and 'unqualified customers' on the left." I just don't think these labels will sit well with people. I smell a public relations disaster with widespread reports of in-store chaos. :eek:

I wondering how many people have 'planed' to use a throwaway CC to buy iPhones and resale them?

[diamond.g]

So you're saying the one factor that makes one phone smart and one phone not is 3G? They both have the same software in the phone and are pretty much the same phone. If you don't want to have 3G, but want an iPhone, you should have an option to use the phone with the $20 data package.

Really, what makes a phone considered a smartphone and not is the software and to say that the new iPhone is a smartphone and the old one not is like saying a macbook isnt a computer and a macbook pro is.

In other words, saying that you're paying more this time because this iphone is a smartphone, to me, is not a valid excuse.

Apple worked out a deal that enabled the iPhone 2G to not be classified as a smart/PDA phone by AT&T. This allowed the $20 data package to be "born". In reality all it was was the Media Max 200 package with a name change. Now AT&T is recognizing the iPhone 3G as a smart/PDA phone. Thus it will have to have the same data package as the others. This is what is allowing us to use discounts on the service, where we can't do that with iPhone 2G.

Of course it is possible for AT&T to buckle and make a "special" data package for the iPhone 3G. As of right now that is all we have to go on.

If you don't want to pay the smartphone rate but want an iPhone then get iPhone 2G or see if people are successful in getting the phone then downgrading the data plan.

[TXCraig]

I wondering how many people have 'planed' to use a throwaway CC to buy iPhones and resale them?

???? If you get to walk out without activating the phone, you have to be a current customer... I'm sure they will verify that. They know where you live! <G>

[TXCraig]

it just seems silly to try and cram all of an opening day's sales into 4 hours ... again.

The 10s of millions of dollars in free advertising Apple gets on the 6:00 PM news very much pays the overtime for the min wage employess to stay late....

[valleryan]

Apple worked out a deal that enabled the iPhone 2G to not be classified as a smart/PDA phone by AT&T. This allowed the $20 data package to be "born". In reality all it was was the Media Max 200 package with a name change. Now AT&T is recognizing the iPhone 3G as a smart/PDA phone. Thus it will have to have the same data package as the others. This is what is allowing us to use discounts on the service, where we can't do that with iPhone 2G.

Of course it is possible for AT&T to buckle and make a "special" data package for the iPhone 3G. As of right now that is all we have to go on.

If you don't want to pay the smartphone rate but want an iPhone then get iPhone 2G or see if people are successful in getting the phone then downgrading the data plan.

Yeah, I am aware of the special plan that they worked out with Apple. I just dont see why they see one phone now as smart and the other as "dumb" when in essence, they are the same phone.

As for me, I will be waiting it out to see if it is possible to downgrade or buy an iPhone 3G without contract/subsidy and just insert my current iPhone sim in there. My reason in wanting the iPhone 3G without the 3G is that if the price without subsidy is decent, I would love to have a new phone since my iPhone's back is scratched up and I do like the GPS feature and extended battery life.

[diamond.g]

Yeah, I am aware of the special plan that they worked out with Apple. I just dont see why they see one phone now as smart and the other as "dumb" when in essence, they are the same phone.

As for me, I will be waiting it out to see if it is possible to downgrade or buy an iPhone 3G without contract/subsidy and just insert my current iPhone sim in there. My reason in wanting the iPhone 3G without the 3G is that if the price without subsidy is decent, I would love to have a new phone since my iPhone's back is scratched up and I do like the GPS feature and extended battery life.

I am actually surprised AT&T didn't just raise the rates of the 2G iPhones at the same time. Of course that would have been a material change to our contracts, but it would have kept this comparison from taking place.

[tothelimit]

The 10s of millions of dollars in free advertising Apple gets on the 6:00 PM news very much pays the overtime for the min wage employess to stay late....

i feel like the release will get that sort of coverage either way. i mean news of iPhone 3G announcement has already spread across major and local new stations. and i'm sure if they do a morning release people will be lining up the night before (if not days), which gives reporters plenty of opportunities to go talk to the anxious people in line etc...

it seems the major reason they do this is so they can conduct "business as usual" most of the day and not throw off the balance of the store from the time the doors open. but lets be honest - thats all people are really going to care about att Apple/ATT stores on July 11.

[aristobrat]

it just seems silly to try and cram all of an opening day's sales into 4 hours ... again.
"Here's a funny one. "Why 6 PM?" Steve says Apple didn't want people to have to take off from work, so they figured that was a good time to do it."
http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/06/28/internal-apple-stevenote-iphone-ipods-with-os-x-and-off-the-charts-macs-in-the-pipeline


Yeah, I am aware of the special plan that they worked out with Apple. I just dont see why they see one phone now as smart and the other as "dumb" when in essence, they are the same phone.
Flashback:

When the original iPhone launched, it cost customers $499/$599.

AT&T spent exactly $0.00 in subsidies to make the iPhone itself less expensive.

IMO, because $499/$599 was insanely expensive for a phone, AT&T took they money that they would normally have spent in making the phone itself less expensive and created a cheaper, special data/SMS plan instead.

Then Apple lowered the iPhone price from $599 to $399.

I guess AT&T figured it'd be bad press to up the price of their special data plan then (even thought the iPhone became a lot more affordable for some), so they kept it.

Today:

With the iPhone 3G, AT&T is speculated to be putting up to $325 in subsidizes so that you can buy it for $199.

Because $199 is in the price ball park of their other smart phones, AT&T no longer warrants it to need a special data/SMS plan.

In other words, AT&T isn't going to lower the cost of the iPhone 3G by $325 up front and also give it a special rate plan that costs them $360 in lost revenue over 24 months.

That would be a $685 total subsidy, and no phone warrants that.

My reason in wanting the iPhone 3G without the 3G is that if the price without subsidy is decent
I'm not sure what you consider decent, but the unsubsidized price on O2's prepaid plan works out to US$691! :eek:

[gceo]

Seriously?

It's pretty easy folks. If your under contract with any phone other than an iPhone, you're breaking your contract to get the new iPhone. Just as with any other phone.

The ONLY exception to this rule is 1st gen iPhones, because we all paid unsubsidized pricing for them, so they CAN'T charge us to break a contract early. They got their money already.

Now if you are near the end of your contract, they might terminate it and start you on a new one with the iPhone without fees, but this is the same FOR ANY PHONE.

Go into your cell store on your 22nd month, and there's a good chance they'll give you a subsidy and sell you a new phone.

The iPhone 3G is now going to be like almost all other American cell phones when it comes to contracts.

[Mikey B]

This one is easy, you are not paying for 3G. I repeat you are not paying for 3G. You are paying for a smartphone. I will repeat that one more time, you are paying for a smartphone.

iPhone 2G was not classified as a smartphone. iPhone 3G is. So you are paying for the data use of a smartphone.

Silly semantics. The things is, Apple sure referred to the iPhone as a smartphone- calling it as such and gathering data on its market share of the smartphone market.

[NeoMayhem]

So what about people who got a free subsidized phone with a new contract and then bought an iPhone a few days later so they could sell the free phone for ~$200?

Do we get another subsidy if we want to upgrade to the new iPhone? If so, then anybody could activate a friends iPhone 2g and then upgrade to a 3g for the subsidized price. I will be pretty disappointed in ATT if the loophole around their policy is that easy.

[meagain]

If I recall correctly, when iPhone launched, we didn't get any AT&T plan info till very shortly before launch day also. That's why I'm not worried.

[Mike2128]

I'm more curious about the fact that when I bought the original iPhone, I was not eligible for upgrade, having just bought a Curve about a month and a half prior. They seem to be saying that original iPhone owners are exempt from this upgrade period, but I'm wondering how specific that is. I'll pay whatever I pay, as I expected to pay way more than 200 bucks for the new one, but I'm unclear on this.

[TXCraig]

I'm more curious about the fact that when I bought the original iPhone, I was not eligible for upgrade, having just bought a Curve about a month and a half prior. They seem to be saying that original iPhone owners are exempt from this upgrade period, but I'm wondering how specific that is. I'll pay whatever I pay, as I expected to pay way more than 200 bucks for the new one, but I'm unclear on this.

Think of it this way. AT&T will give you a subed phone every two years. The 1st G iPhone was NOT a subed phone so it does not count. You will get your next subed phone 2 years from the day you purchased your Curve.

Does that makes since to you? Its really very simple.

[aristobrat]

If you logon to your AT&T account and click on "Phone/Device", doesn't it tell you if you're eligible or not?

Here's what mine says. When I bought my iPhone on launch day last year, I also signed up for AT&T for the first time. Haven't received any other phone from them, so technically I'm 11 months into my 24 month contract.

[Kremner]

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I think I will wait until after the launch and give things a chance to settle down before I buy.

Again, thanks from Jonathan Kremner (current Treo user) for the good discussion on this thread.

[DreamPod]

Silly semantics. The things is, Apple sure referred to the iPhone as a smartphone- calling it as such and gathering data on its market share of the smartphone market.

It's not semantics. The new plan has NOTHING to do with 3G whatsoever. Because Apple called it a smartphone, didn't make it a smartphone. It wasn't one at all. A smartphone is expandable through third-party Apps - that's what makes it "smart". The iPhone wasn't a true smart phone until OS 2.0. Now that it is a smart phone, and now that AT&T is fully subsidizing it, they are making new iPhone customers use their smart phone plan. A smart phone usually has higher data rates than a normal phone, so it's more costly.

They aren't changing the price for people who are already paying the old price, because that would piss people off, and give them a chance to get out of their contracts without paying the ETF; a bad combination.

[Mike2128]

Think of it this way. AT&T will give you a subed phone every two years. The 1st G iPhone was NOT a subed phone so it does not count. You will get your next subed phone 2 years from the day you purchased your Curve.

Does that makes since to you? Its really very simple.

I'm sensing a bit of an attitude here.

Anyway, here's my point...

In reading all of these "everything you need to know..." questionnaires with anonymous at&t spokesperson on each of the gadget blogs, they always seem to list three types of customers eligible for iPhone subsidizing (new customers, upgrade eligible customers, and current iPhone customers). Now, none of these blogs or spokespeople have defined current iPhone users or even limited that to current iPhone users who also happen to be eligible, it's just current iPhone users.

I'm a current iPhone user and have been since it came out, so provided there aren't any other caveats to this, I'm wondering if that is enough to get me in there. Like I said, I don't mind paying what I have to pay, but they've been so vague about .

The only place I've ever seen the explanation that it's because of lack of subsidy on the original phone is on these (or other) boards. No at&t rep has said it's because the original was full price. I'm curious as to whether or not this is a move on Apple and at&t's part to reward loyalty to the iPhone line by continuing to allow iPhone customers to upgrade regardless.

It's just a thought.

[aristobrat]

I'm a current iPhone user and have been since it came out, so provided there aren't any other caveats to this, I'm wondering if that is enough to get me in there.
When you logon to AT&T and check your account, what does it say when you click "Phones/Devices"? That should take some of the wondering out, no?

[aridon]

I'll be waiting a few days before I buy and watching the epic bitching here. I could care less if I buy almost the exact same phone I have now a few days later and actually go into it informed.

[richard4339]

I am actually surprised AT&T didn't just raise the rates of the 2G iPhones at the same time. Of course that would have been a material change to our contracts, but it would have kept this comparison from taking place.

In order to not break the current contracts, the $20 plan will probably go away once the existing customer's two year contracts are up. So, if you bought an iPhone last year, next year, you probably will go to the new $30 rate regardless.