Linux on my Mac? What for?

[MacAztec]

I was looking into installing YDL on my mac. But, I was wondering, what would I do it for?

What can I do with linux? I have heard it is faster then OS X, is this true? Can I play games? Does it have a nice web browser, email program, and chat program built in?

Will it support my computer fully, and my graphics card? What about wireless k/b and mouse?

[MoparShaha]

I don't recommend using Linux if you're just a casual user. It can be quite difficult at times. That said, if you want to learn it, it's a fantastic OS, and well worth the time. You can browse the web, do email...pretty much anything you can do on the mac. And yes, it is faster than OS X. You're not going to really find any games for it though, but pretty much all the programs for it are free.

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by MacAztec
I was looking into installing YDL on my mac. But, I was wondering, what would I do it for?

What can I do with linux? I have heard it is faster then OS X, is this true? Can I play games? Does it have a nice web browser, email program, and chat program built in?

Will it support my computer fully, and my graphics card? What about wireless k/b and mouse? I've considered using at one point, but I didn't feel like buying it or downloading and burning it(which, BTW is legal to do with most brands of Linux, including YDL). Chances are, though, like many OSes, it is faster than 10.1 and Jaguar, but not Panther. It can supposedly emulate OS 9 faster than Classic, and can also emulate OS X.

Chances are, it can't do more things than you could do if you were to run X11.

[MattG]

Originally posted by MacAztec
I was looking into installing YDL on my mac. But, I was wondering, what would I do it for?

What can I do with linux? I have heard it is faster then OS X, is this true? Can I play games? Does it have a nice web browser, email program, and chat program built in?

Will it support my computer fully, and my graphics card? What about wireless k/b and mouse? I don't like Linux because you have to be a techie to use and install it (at least that's how it used to be...I haven't tried it for a year or so). Granted, I have the techie-ness required to install it and use it, but I don't want to have to bother with all that. That's why I switched to a Mac.

Mac OS X is everything Linux wishes it could be...stable, beautiful, *and* user friendly.

[cubist]

Plus Mac OS X has commercial software and games.

But what about using Linux on older machines, e.g. my old 8100? Would it work at all on the ADB/SCSI/IWM hardware? That might be useful. The machine is pitifully slow running Mac OS 9. If it could run Linux I could use it for a firewall or something. (Sigh) I suppose it might as well go to the landfill.

[leet1]

Originally posted by MattG
That's why I switched to a Mac.

Mac OS X is everything Linux wishes it could be...stable, beautiful, *and* user friendly.

Actually(not sure what linux is like on the Mac, but has to be pretty similar) but Linux is now all three of those things and then some lol. Fedora, redhat, Mandrake...these are as user friendly as you can get, hehe.

Best thing, look getting old? change it! switch windows managers or desktops.

Linux is no longer wishing :D

[leet1]

Originally posted by cubist
Plus Mac OS X has commercial software and games.


Just like the Mac, it will soon be adopter and games made for it I bet. Theres already a few big games usable on it right now. Unreal tournament, Unreal tournament 2003, half life, and a few more which I don't know about, heh.

[Nermal]

Originally posted by cubist
Plus Mac OS X has commercial software and games.

That's one of the reasons I got a Mac. I liked fiddling around in Linux, but I got frustrated with the lack of commercial software. I saw that the Mac supports most of the apps I wanted, so I gave it a go. Now I'm on my second Mac, and I agree - who needs Linux when you've got a Mac?

[besson3c]

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
I've considered using at one point, but I didn't feel like buying it or downloading and burning it(which, BTW is legal to do with most brands of Linux, including YDL). Chances are, though, like many OSes, it is faster than 10.1 and Jaguar, but not Panther. It can supposedly emulate OS 9 faster than Classic, and can also emulate OS X.

Chances are, it can't do more things than you could do if you were to run X11.

It is not emulating Classic or OS X, nor does OS X emulate Classic.

[Nermal]

"Emulating" is an easier word than "virtual machining", which isn't a word at all :)

[besson3c]

Originally posted by leet1
Actually(not sure what linux is like on the Mac, but has to be pretty similar) but Linux is now all three of those things and then some lol. Fedora, redhat, Mandrake...these are as user friendly as you can get, hehe.

Best thing, look getting old? change it! switch windows managers or desktops.

Linux is no longer wishing :D

Are you being serious?

[leet1]

Originally posted by Nermal
Now I'm on my second Mac, and I agree - who needs Linux when you've got a Mac?

People who want to customize their OS completely, have the best security, its all free!

[leet1]

Originally posted by besson3c
Are you being serious?

Yup, Unreal tournament and 2003 come with a linux installer on them.

[Nermal]

Yeah, I feel like manually editing .conf files today :rolleyes:

[leet1]

Originally posted by Nermal
Yeah, I feel like manually editing .conf files today :rolleyes:

Why would you have to do that?

[Nermal]

Because every time I've tried to do something in Linux, I've ended up having to do it manually. Granted I haven't touched Linux in quite a while though, it could be different now.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by leet1
People who want to customize their OS completely, have the best security, its all free!

What are you going to secure on it while it is functioning as a client OS?

Linux is *not* a viable solution for the masses as far as a client OS. It makes a great server OS. I've used it for years for this purpose (since switched to FreeBSD).

KDE is not up to the level of OS X, OS 9, or Windows. It is still far too complicated for your Grandma to operate. It is lacking commercial software. The package management is lacking (and your Grandma is not going to want to compile something). There is no clear UI definition, it is lost in the massive amount of customization that is possible (which is nto a bad thing for people like you). It is improving though.

I don't know how anybody over the age of 16 grounded in any sort of reality can claim that this is an OS ready for the masses to use. Until it passes the Grandma test, claims of UI superiority are futile.

[leet1]

Originally posted by besson3c
What are you going to secure on it while it is functioning as a client OS?

Linux is *not* a viable solution for the masses as far as a client OS. It makes a great server OS. I've used it for years for this purpose (since switched to FreeBSD).

KDE is not up to the level of OS X, OS 9, or Windows. It is improving though.

I don't know how anybody over the age of 16 grounded in any sort of reality can claim that this is an OS ready for the masses to use. Until it passes the Grandma test, claims of UI superiority are futile.


I guess its a little complicated for grandma, lol. I just think there are distros out there ready for the masses. There are already schools in certain countries adopting it instead of windows or osx.

www.freshmeat.com is a great site if anyone was wondering where to find software for it.

[Nermal]

Remember that the schools (or their suppliers) probably spend quite a while tweaking the system, simplifying it, before the rest of the students and teachers ever see it.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by leet1
I guess its a little complicated for grandma, lol. I just think there are distros out there ready for the masses. There are already schools in certain countries adopting it instead of windows or osx.

www.freshmeat.com is a great site if anyone was wondering where to find software for it.

Why would a distro make things more user friendly for the masses? The Window Manager is the UI. KDE and Gnome aren't there yet. Even their authors will admit this, I'm sure.

Sure schools and certain workstations can be setup to do a couple of tasks with KDE or whatever, but what if you don't have an IT department to setup a workstation for you? Is the UI intuititve enough that you would stand a fighting chance?

My answer is a resounding "no". This isn't a Linux slam, I want Linux to succeed and overthrow Windows more than anything. I just object to comments like yours which are simply not based in reality, at least as I determine it.... =)

[leet1]

Originally posted by besson3c
Why would a distro make things more user friendly for the masses? The Window Manager is the UI. KDE and Gnome aren't there yet. Even their authors will admit this, I'm sure.

Installing and such are different on each distro. I've tried out a few distros and Fedora or madrake can be installed easily by a novice.

You have a start menu, task bar, alt-tabing, rpm installing(which makes things like installing new software as easy as in windows.


Sure schools and certain workstations can be setup to do a couple of tasks with KDE or whatever, but what if you don't have an IT department to setup a workstation for you? Is the UI intuititve enough that you would stand a fighting chance?

You have a control panel, all your basic apps already included, and a wizard or instructions to guide you through anything you don't understand. Updating is as easy as clicking on the update program and finding out if there are any updates ready. So yea, even those schools without an IT department can stand a chance, lol

My answer is a resounding "no". This isn't a Linux slam, I want Linux to succeed and overthrow Windows more than anything. I just object to comments like yours which are simply not based in reality, at least as I determine it.... =)

Oh yea me too I guess in a way. Except I Want it to overthrow OSX too :D Too proprietary, hehe.


Don't know how my comments aren't based on reality though, lol.

[Westside guy]

I just recently bought my first Mac (PB 15") after having run Red Hat on a Dell laptop for the past 2+ years. Since Yellow Dog is based on RH it should be similar.

It is very easy to get a basic system up and running, as long as it's the only operating system on your box. It will actually handle a dual-boot setup well, but you first have to split up your partitions manually for that (the installer can't/won't resize your existing OS X partition in other words). The install is a matter of clicking through a bunch of screens where you're selecting preferences. Piece of cake.

After the install you will have a nice, easy to understand system. I loved Linux... except for those occasions when I HATED it.

- You won't currently be able to use your Airport Extreme card. A regular Airport card on an older system will work fine.

- USB and Firewire work well - but it can be a pain in the neck figuring out just what the heck /dev/???? to use to actually access your USB or Firewire device.

- Your ATI video card will work... but hardware acceleration won't.

- Bluetooth won't work.

- "Sleep" doesn't currently work.

- Check YDL's support pages for the other caveats.

Basically if you're a tinkerer, or if you've got old hardware that doesn't run OS X well, then go ahead. If you've got a big hard disk and can spare ~10GB for a Linux partition plus room to play, go ahead. It can be a lot of fun - but just be aware it can be very frustrating too. I'm glad I've had the "Linux Experience", but I'm doubly glad now to have discovered OS X. It pretty much allows me to still do the stuff I found useful in Linux (especially when you install Fink), but without the occasional bouts of extreme frustration.

[ebuc]

If I wanted to install YDL on my "second" computer, a 450 MHz G4 Cube, would it be as easy as downloading it (though that could be a little problem in itself!) and running the installer? Sounds like an fun thing to try out.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by leet1
Installing and such are different on each distro. I've tried out a few distros and Fedora or madrake can be installed easily by a novice.

What if your hardware isn't detected properly? How do you decide what partition scheme to use? What if you want to use a firewall, is the novice going to recompile the kernel with IPFW/IPTables support? Do you need a /var partition? How big should it be? How big should the swap space be? Sure the installer may suggest some values here, but this is far from novice territory.

Once you have the OS installed, who holds the root password? Can regular users do everything they need to do without the root password?

You have a start menu, task bar, alt-tabing, rpm installing(which makes things like installing new software as easy as in windows.

No it isn't, RPMs are notorius for having severe dependency problems. How do you uninstall programs? RPMs kind of suck. I like Debian's/Fink's apt-get, and FreeBSD ports far more.

The Start Menu is not a model for UI either, in my opinion.

You have a control panel, all your basic apps already included, and a wizard or instructions to guide you through anything you don't understand.

What if you don't buy the idea that Wizards account for a good UI?

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by besson3c
It is not emulating Classic or OS X, nor does OS X emulate Classic. Sorry. I know it's not emulation, I just couldn't think of a better word to use.

[leet1]

Originally posted by besson3c
What if your hardware isn't detected properly? How do you decide what partition scheme to use? What if you want to use a firewall, is the novice going to recompile the kernel with IPFW/IPTables support? Do you need a /var partition? How big should it be? How big should the swap space be? Sure the installer may suggest some values here, but this is far from novice territory.

Not sure what you do if your hardware isn't detected, as it was all detected on my laptop and my desktop.

It asks you what partition scheme you want to use.

If you want to use a firewall, you choose "firewall" option when your installing, lol. Then you go through what levels you would like to set it to.

All the partition stuff was handled by druid, the built in partition handler. It allowed me to choose the open space I left after installing windows, then it set up the swap and /boot things. You don't have to know how much to use, it does it itself.

Once you have the OS installed, who holds the root password? Can regular users do everything they need to do without the root password?

You can make the root password nonexistant if you like, then you do't have to worry about that.

No it isn't, RPMs are notorius for having severe dependency problems. How do you uninstall programs? RPMs kind of suck.

I don't know about dependency problems as I haven't run into those, but when you want to uninstall a program, you just go to the menu, under configure, then click on remove software. Pretty simple.

What if you don't buy the idea that Wizards account for a good UI?

Then you don't use linux, lol I don't know. Its a matter of opinion if its a good UI or not I guess.

[Nermal]

Originally posted by leet1
Oh yea me too I guess in a way. Except I Want it to overthrow OSX too :D Too proprietary, hehe.

You're kidding, right? OS X is probably the least proprietary commercial OS out there!

[Nermal]

Originally posted by besson3c
What if you don't buy the idea that Wizards account for a good UI?

A decent OS has few (or no) wizards. If a task is so complicated that you need a wizard to do it for you, then they should work on making the task easier, rather than "cheating" and getting a wizard to work around it.

[leet1]

Originally posted by Nermal
You're kidding, right? OS X is probably the least proprietary commercial OS out there!

Oh really? Can you use OSX on a pim device? handheld pc? Really old hardware? lol x86? This is what I was talking about, heh

Linux can be considered a commercial OS, since its sold to major companies as well :p

[besson3c]

Originally posted by leet1
It asks you what partition scheme you want to use.

You're not getting my point. How is your Grandma going to know what partition scheme she should use? Sure the defaults will work fine, but this isn't novice territory.

If you want to use a firewall, you choose "firewall" option when your installing, lol. Then you go through what levels you would like to set it to.

What if you select no, not knowing what a firewall is, and decide you want one later?

You can make the root password nonexistant if you like, then you do't have to worry about that.

and this makes security better how (your previous argument)? Every modern OS has an admin-type user and regular users. One of Windows' biggest problems now is that people need to be administrators, yet administrators can *completely* mess up a computer.

I don't know about dependency problems as I haven't run into those, but when you want to uninstall a program, you just go to the menu, under configure, then click on remove software. Pretty simple.

Obviously, the Mac way is far simplier. If you haven't run into dependency problems, you obviously haven't used Linux much. No offense.

[Nermal]

Apple have to make their money somewhere. Letting OS X run on anything will kill Apple. But look at how much of their system is open source. You can compile the kernal for practically any architecture, and lots of the base system is open source. Sure, the UI is proprietary, and so are the apps, but it's a lot more open than Windows!

Linux is not really a commercial OS. Sure, you can buy it, but it's based on the free software philosophy and is open source, you don't have to pay a cent for it if you don't want to. I'm not trying to get into an argument here, I'm just trying to make some points. :)

At the rate we're going with posts in this thread, I'll be a 68000 by the end of the day :D

[leet1]

Originally posted by besson3c
You're not getting my point. How is your Grandma going to know what partition scheme she should use? Sure the defaults will work fine, but this isn't novice territory.


If the default works fine, then why change it? Your right, I'm not getting your point, lol . You don't have to mess with it, as it will choose for you(automatic partition)


What if you select no, not knowing what a firewall is, and decide you want one later?


Go under configuration and enable it.


and this makes security better how (your previous argument)? Every modern OS has an admin-type user and regular users. One of Windows' biggest problems now is that people need to be administrators, yet administrators can *completely* mess up a computer.


Right, if you want security, you have to have a root password. So then you use a root password. When you use one, when you try to install things, it will ask for it. I guess it can be looked at as a problem.

Seems like the perfect thing for a school, since you have to have a root password to install anything, but you can download and save things without it.

Obviously, the Mac way is far simplier. If you haven't run into dependency problems, you obviously haven't used Linux much. No offense.

Your right, Mac is far more simplier, lol You have the grandma factor there :p

I've only been using it for a few months, so yea, I'm not a complete expert or anything on linux, hehe

I usually use www.linuxquestions.org if I have any questions, recommend it to anyone, great site :D

[leet1]

Originally posted by Nermal
Linux is not really a commercial OS. Sure, you can buy it, but it's based on the free software philosophy and is open source, you don't have to pay a cent for it if you don't want to. I'm not trying to get into an argument here, I'm just trying to make some points. :)

Your right, the whole thing about linux is it being free, which totally blew my mind when I first found out about it and used it.

"A complete operating system, for free?!?!?! Can't be true!"

^---me a while back, lol

At the rate we're going with posts in this thread, I'll be a 68000 by the end of the day :D

lol

[pjkelnhofer]

Can anyone point me in the direction of a good website or book about setting up my Mac (an iMac DV SE if that matters) about partition my drive for YDL and OS X?
I am very intrigued by Linux and want to learn more about it. I am about to put a new HD into my computer so I thought when I go to reinstall everything it would be the perfect time to partition the drive for Linux and OS X.

[daveL]

Originally posted by leet1
Just like the Mac, it will soon be adopter and games made for it I bet. Theres already a few big games usable on it right now. Unreal tournament, Unreal tournament 2003, half life, and a few more which I don't know about, heh.
You're talking x86 Linux, not PPC Linux.

[RelandR]

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
Can anyone point me in the direction of a good website or book about setting up my Mac (an iMac DV SE if that matters) about partition my drive for YDL and OS X?
I am very intrigued by Linux and want to learn more about it. I am about to put a new HD into my computer so I thought when I go to reinstall everything it would be the perfect time to partition the drive for Linux and OS X.

I'm in about the same boat as you are and went first to mandrake only to discover that their store/customer service really suck (and no ppc explicit doc's) allthough the OS is well liked so a lot of ppl just download the iso's and deal with it.
...Which is not a recomendation for a newbie...

I'm currently checking out YellowDog (http://www.yellowdoglinux.com) and so far am impressed with the fact that they even have video-tutorials and support a much broader range of macs and it also comes with some 1000± apps

no, I don't work for them but they are deffinately getting my next $85 ('cause I want the shirt and the manual)

cheers

[ethernet76]

Originally posted by leet1
If the default works fine, then why change it? Your right, I'm not getting your point, lol . You don't have to mess with it, as it will choose for you(automatic partition)



Go under configuration and enable it.



Right, if you want security, you have to have a root password. So then you use a root password. When you use one, when you try to install things, it will ask for it. I guess it can be looked at as a problem.

Seems like the perfect thing for a school, since you have to have a root password to install anything, but you can download and save things without it.



Your right, Mac is far more simplier, lol You have the grandma factor there :p

I've only been using it for a few months, so yea, I'm not a complete expert or anything on linux, hehe

I usually use www.linuxquestions.org if I have any questions, recommend it to anyone, great site :D

First about the partitions. Why do I have to know how to optimize my partitioning? Can't the OS do it for me. Obviously I know I want my swap space to be on the outter most portion of the HD, but normal people are afraid. Here's what imagine, I phone call, "It says it wants to partition the drive, is that bad?"

I took a linux class, I think the best part is when the Linux expert that taught the class explained the various partition methods for optimal performance. Involved something like 5 different partitions of varying percentages based on what you did most.

The class ended with a group project. One group did Linux on laptops. The best part about that project was it doesn't work well with laptops.

Another group did SMB, it took them 30 minutes to run through a set up. In OS X it's one click under the sharing preference.

We did using a linux box as a router. We ended up downloading Firestarter after playing for 30 hours with IP tables and chains. In mac this is once again a single check box.

The last group tried to hook up a camera to a linux computer. After 30 minutes they, "weren't sure what went wrong this time." But they swore it worked once, at least. In mac this is plugging the device into the computer.

Linux isn't friendly. It can boot on a desktop once installed, but don't ask it to do much other than that if you are a novice.

[ShadowHunter]

Originally posted by leet1
Actually(not sure what linux is like on the Mac, but has to be pretty similar) but Linux is now all three of those things and then some lol. Fedora, redhat, Mandrake...these are as user friendly as you can get, hehe.

Best thing, look getting old? change it! switch windows managers or desktops.

Linux is no longer wishing :D

Sorry, but I just have to but in here!

I grant you, Linux has come leaps and bounds into a usable OS; but it still very from user friendly. I've tried Mandrake off and on over the past year or 2, and its still hard to use. Sure, it has a little "help, I don't know where the any key is" wizard for the installer, but if I deviate off that I'm screwed. I have a 3D Labs video card, and after spending about an hour trying to figure out where the heck I can install drivers, I found its not supported. Digging out an older video card, I had to go through the terminal (the GUI wouldn't launch) and look up commands on the net to get to the little video wizard.

After all that fiasco, I finally get into the OS. I find everything takes 20 extra clicks still to do the same then in OS X or Windows would take a few. Want to browse the network? Open Linneighborhood, find a path, login, mount it. In Windows, I click My Network Places, find the computer, and click a share. Simple, all one window. It's just unncessairily complicated still in Linux. If you're a techie with the extra time on your hands, all the power to ya. But PLZ quit trying to pass Linux as user-friendly now.

As far as UT goes, that's one game that works in Linux. I can list about 5000 that still don't (even with the time consuming WineX or whatever it is). UT has always been a geek game anyway, highly customizeable, so of course its going to come with Linux support.

[leet1]

Originally posted by ShadowHunter
UT has always been a geek game anyway, highly customizeable, so of course its going to come with Linux support.

geek game? lol...

[ShadowHunter]

Originally posted by leet1
geek game? lol...

Every person that I have ever known to play it long-term is a techie type, simple as that.

It just appeals to that sort of people more then others....

[leet1]

Originally posted by ShadowHunter
Every person that I have ever known to play it long-term is a techie type, simple as that.

It just appeals to that sort of people more then others....


What games don't? lol

[ShadowHunter]

Originally posted by MacAztec
I was looking into installing YDL on my mac. But, I was wondering, what would I do it for?

What can I do with linux? I have heard it is faster then OS X, is this true? Can I play games? Does it have a nice web browser, email program, and chat program built in?

Will it support my computer fully, and my graphics card? What about wireless k/b and mouse?

There is really no reason too. You can do almost any *nix task in OS X, if that's what you really want.

Let's be realistic here, Panther is quite speedy. Just how much faster can an OS go? Unless you strip Linux down so much that the only thing you can do is say "wow, it's fast", what's the point? You will be able to play a few games, the very small handful that support Linux (like UT). Try playing MOHAA, Command & Conquer Generals, or any DirectX game. You will get sketchy support from WineX but that's about it.

Depending on the distro, Mandrake will come with about 10 email programs and 20 chat programs, and a kajillion web browsers to choose from. At the end of the day, they all work.

You will have a lot of trouble getting wireless devices to work, and as far as support for your other hardware you're going to have to put a signifigant amount of research into other user's experience.

When it's all said and done, why bother? OS X is great, does more then Linux for day-to-day crap, and looks bootyful.

[besson3c]

If you want to try out KDE, install it through Fink within OS X.

There is little reason to repartition your machine just to "try out" Linux, when you already have access to all of the tools within OS X.

Admittedly, Linux is different than FreeBSD (which OS X is based on), but there is plenty of info and support out there about FreeBSD, which is a highly capable OS.

[leet1]

Completely forgot...don't know if anyone mentioned it. X86 linux has distro's then can run off a CD. If you were wanting to check it out and not go through partitioning, I bet they make a distro for ppc platform that runs off a CD.

Check out www.distrowatch.com to find out :D

[Independence]

I just thought I'd add something here just because I love Linux so much. :)

Linux is a very capable OS. I've been using it on and off over the past three years (just had to have Windows for some things). I've recently switched over to an all Linux system permanently. I'll admit that Linux is not for the Average Joe. Some distros like Redhat and Mandrake have all sorts of graphical tools to make it easier. I myself, however, use Slackware which is one of the more difficult flavors of Linux to master. But I'm learning. :) I consider it a hobby. And when I actually need to get work done, there's always OpenOffice.

I've decided to attach a scaled down image of my Linux desktop just to show some of the people in this thread what a KDE desktop looks like.