Which laptop: PB 15"/17" or IBM Thinkpad?

[Butla99]

I have finally narrowed my choices down to two (or three) laptops: a Powerbook 15" or 17", or an IBM Thinkpad T41p. I am a graduate student and will mostly be using it for creating presentations, web surfing, e-mail, word processing, and watching the occasional movie or playing an occasional game. Is there any difference between the PB 15" and 17" in terms of sound quality (I think only the 15" has a third speaker) or processor speed (I know the numbers, but I mean is there any actual real-world noticeable difference)? That will help me decide between the PB 15" vs. 17".

Other questions:

1. Does anyone know the contrast ratio, brightness, watts for speakers, or pixel pitch for any of the above models? I can't find this info anywhere.

2. The IBM Thinkpad T41p lacks firewire and DVD-R or RW. How important might these be for my situation?

3. Graphics: 64MB ATI 9600 (PB's) vs. 128MB Open GL2 (IBM)

4. Processor/Bus: G4 1.33GHz/167MHz (PB's) vs. Pentium-M 1.7 GHz/400MHZ (IBM)

5. 512MB L2 cache (PB's) vs. 1MB L2 cache (IBM)

6. Screen resolutions: PB 17" is 1440x900 and IBM 14.1" is 1400x1050. Obviously, the PB is closer to widescreen and the IBM is 4:3, but will there be any noticeable difference in the overall sharpness or clarity?

7. Last one, I swear! I have never owned an Apple and I was wondering how easy the transition is. Is the new OS easy to learn and is it really as much better as everyone says?

Sorry for posting so many questions, but I had to type them so I could get them out of my mind. I can't sleep because I am constantly comparing the models. I am hoping to get one of these soon, my birthday is in a week and Christmas is coming also. Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer any of these questions. I better get some sleep, I have a final in like 5 hours from now. :)

[loneAzdgari]

I own a 15" 1.25GHz Powerbook and I genuinely think that it is the best laptop ever created. It has every single technology that you could possibly want in a laptop and more. It's a class above the thinkpad. Definitely go with the 15" 1.25GHz Model. The 17" is just too large for portability.

1. The sound quality of the Powerbook is the best I have heard for a laptop.

2. Firewire and DVD-R is pretty much essential these days, you can't live without Firewire certainly. The DVD writer is great for backup.

3. The Radeon 9600 will massively outperform the IBM's chip, it's great for games. The OpenGL 2 is just not up to the task.

4. The processor in the 15" is amazing for the portability of the actual laptop. You won't really notice any differences between the 1.33 and the 1.25 unless you deal with large files.

5. This may have some effect but still it's pretty small. If you're playing games the performance will be much better on the G4.

6. The G4's widescreen aspect is much better than 4:3 for watching DVD's and work will be much easier with the increased screen space sideways (for palates etc.)

7. This is harder to judge. If you have many PC applications that you need to use, the costs will increase because of the cost of the software. As for ease of use, the mac wins hands down. Installing apps is a simple drag and drop, Expose is the best windows management system ever, Mac OS X is much easier on the eyes than windows. The list goes on.

Hope i helped.

[AmigoMac]

...

This topic will get absolutely biased answers, for most of us that word "Thinkpad" or whatever is related to it won't be read at fisrt...;)

Of course, you will find those who want to have free/general/open opinion but just because they don't want to be pointed as geeks...:D

15" SD

[WinterMute]

The only downside to owning a Mac is the lack of games on initial release, the PC has a much wider range to choose from.

Otherwise the 15 or the 17 will leave the Thinkpad in the dust, I've had both, and now use the 17" as my main computer, it does everything flawlessly.

DVD-r is a must, back-up alone is worth the price, but iDVD/iMovie is ridiculously easy to master. Firewire is now almost essential, it simply makes life so much easier.

Not to mention Airport, Bluetooth and tarty stuff like illuminated keyboards...:D

I wouldn't worry too much about the switch, sure it'll take a little time to get used to where everything is, but OSX is certainly the freindliest and most integrated of the mainstream OS.

Buy the 17" you'll not regret it, mine goes accross London with me every day, and it is very portable with a good bag.

[javabear90]

I would get a 15" powerbook if I were you. I had to make the same deciosion (only w/ older models) I accually chose the 17 so... my school has thinkpads and they are not that great. the 15/17 will be much faster.
hope this helps
da tedsta.

[ethernet76]

1.) Please just go into a store and look at the screens. Mark a point for the one that looks better. Laptop speakers blow no matter which one you get. Blow Blow Blow. Get a pair of add on speakers to go with it once you get the laptop either way.

2.) Depends if you plan on usings these options. I use firewire for my iPod. However, you will probably not ever use it, unless you do one of the following. Shoot digita video, shoot high-end SLR digital cameras, get an iPod(even then they have a USB 2.0 adapter that while slower will still be quite enough).

DVD-R for you is a complete waste. Even if you get a powerbook take it off. It's a 200 dollar upgrade you'll use once maybe twice.

3.) ATI is the standard these days in at-home graphics. The 9600 is the best chip out there period.

4.) 1.25 will play any game. However Mac games are limited. You'll find yourself happier with gaming if you just break down and get an xBox, console gaming these days is twice as good as computer gaming just for the lone fact of two people can sit down and play against each other in the same room.

5.) The IBM's cache will make a difference. How large? Not sure. Even though it's double the Powerbook, I doubt the effect doubling will make the effects so lopside that the ThinkPad is th clear winner. Although if it the stats were switched, I'm sure the loons here would argue the cache difference alone would be the reason for the Powerbook.

6.) It's more important to look at screen size than at resolution. I have a 15" monitor that can do 1600x1200. 1400x1050 would make a 64 pixel icon would be a little over half and in tall(.51). Something 72 pixels tall would be .58 inches. Experts recommend that 72 pixels be close to an inch on screen for best viewing.

4:3 is better for every day computing. I find that I want more vertical space than horizontal and that unless i'm doing photoshop or flash the wider screen for the powerbook goes completely unused. However, the 4:3 will reduce your DVD's to tiny sizes and you'll find that it's completely unbearable to watch a dvd at a distance any more than a couple of feet.

7.) No offense, but you don't seems like the type of person who would know how to fix something if it went wrong. For this reason alone I recommend a powerbook. I feel safe knowning that while I may be 4 hours away from my parents that their flat-panel iMac won't crap out on them and require me to go home and fix it.

As for the switching, get a two-button mouse and you'll be fine. It'll require some getting use to. (No start menu, no my documents folder right on the desktop) But the dock and and home folder takes care of these differences, and youll have the added benefit of not worrying too much about viruses, or someone hacking your computer.

Roundup: I'd recommend the 15" powerbook for you.

The 17" is for design professionals and it's really to big for practical carrying around purposes, but the 15" will get you the oOOs and aHHs when you do your presentations. I could have the best computer in the world, but if looks like crap they're going to notice, and thinkpads are just play fugly. Apple has the sleek look that says high-end classy. The only problem is they might want to touch it after the presentation.

[kaosfere]

Man, some of the opinions here are comically biased, but that's what you get for asking questions like this on a partisan site. :)

Despite what is being said here, the Thinkpad is an excellent machine. It will probably approach or meet, if not exceed, the speed of the PowerBook in most tests of raw number crunching. There is a megahertz gap, but it's not that significant.

The FireGL T2, which is what's in the Thinkpad, is based on the same basic chipset as the Radeon 9600, but upclocked a little bit and with more RAM. It is at least comparable to, probably better than, the 9600. It certainly will not be "blown away" by it.

If you don't think you're ever going to have a need for FireWire, don't buy it. USB2 HiSpeed is not as good, but it's not terrible.

IBM makes an excellent laptop. The T41p is, I'd wager, one of the best Wintel laptops you can buy right now, and one of the best laptops period. You certainly cannot go wrong buying it -- at least, not as wrong as some of the commenters above would lead you to believe.

Another thing to consider is battery life -- do you need alot? I'm not positive (and I don't have time to look up the specs) but I think the Thinkpad actually wins there.

That being said, the PowerBook has alot going for it. No Wintel laptop that I've seen even comes close in terms of design quality or aesthetics. The impression you get from a PowerBook is one of sleek professional quality. I've yet to see a Wintel book that doesn't feel like cheap plastic or painted metal; Viaos come close.

You also won't get OS X on the Thinkpad. I'm been using various flavours of Unix for years, with a sideline in Windows where I absolutely had to, and neither of them have anything on OS X, imo, in terms of beauty, human interface, or just plain ease of use. I run 60-someodd AIX machines at work, and I spend the day flinging perl and shell plumbing on the command line; waking my PowerBook from sleep when I come home is like pouring a good glass of scotch and putting on comfy slippers. It almost feels guilty, it feels so good.

You really can't go wrong in this choice, IMO. If you can do what you need to do equally well on both machines, it comes down to trying them both out. See how they feel. Type on them for a bit. Poke around with OS X, see if you think you can get to like it.

I want to recommend a PowerBook, because, well, I have one, but I honestly can't say that its necessarily the best choice for you, and it's certainly not the hands-down winner that folks here will make it out to be.

My $.02

[AmigoMac]

Originally posted by kaosfere
Man, some of the opinions here are comically biased, but that's what you get for asking questions like this on a partisan site. :)

...

You also won't get OS X on the Thinkpad. I'm been using various flavours of Unix for years, with a sideline in Windows where I absolutely had to, and neither of them have anything on OS X, imo, in terms of beauty, human interface, or just plain ease of use. I run 60-someodd AIX machines at work, and I spend the day flinging perl and shell plumbing on the command line; waking my PowerBook from sleep when I come home is like pouring a good glass of scotch and putting on comfy slippers. It almost feels guilty, it feels so good.

...

I want to recommend a PowerBook, because, well, I have one, but I honestly can't say that its necessarily the best choice for you, and it's certainly not the hands-down winner that folks here will make it out to be.

My $.02


It feels like a "general" point of view but with some hidden messages...

nevertheless, this topic feels like the one who really wants the PB but need a lot of reasons on paper to show his/her boss/wife/husband and convince everyone around that apple is the answer...

(That's what my cousin did) :p

Good luck and enjoy your PB

[Apple //e]

Originally posted by loneAzdgari

3. The Radeon 9600 will massively outperform the IBM's chip, it's great for games. The OpenGL 2 is just not up to the task.

[/B]

doesnt the t41p have the fireGL, a professional graphics card?

if it does, it is way superior to anything apple has

id get the thinkpad t41p

[kaosfere]

Originally posted by Apple //e
doesnt the t41p have the fireGL, a professional graphics card?

Yes, it does. It has the mobile version of a card designed for intensive CAD/CAM work. It's essentially the 9600++. I haven't seen hard benchmarks comparing the two, but the FireGL would almost certainly win, and probably by a respectable margin.

[shoez]

Let me first begin by stating I've just recently purchased a 12" PowerBook (you can request photos after reading my response if you don't believe me :)), and have been a PC user for many a year.

Macs are slow no question about it, and a new ThinkPad will run rings around the poor old PB. Equipment and peripherals for Macs are also available at inflated prices. Not withstanding, the Windows PC probably has a greater selection of software - and especially for me, the best text edit in Ultraedit (BBedit simply doesn't compare). Also, and this depends on how you work but OS X seems application centric. Windows is more task centric. The difference is that on OS X you can flick quickly between applications, but not separate app windows. Expose with good old F10 therefore becomes an absolute necessity because otherwise you'd stuffed. If you're anything like me, you'll have your taskbar stuffed to the gunnels with tasks. I'm a Win2k user as well, not XP which I know likes to group app windows together. You may find this slight difference in approaches disorienting and I would say it is probably the central reason why I still use my PC for most stuff, my Mac is there for Uni work (programming, dissertations).

However, and before every Mac zealot jumps on me ("you'll get used to it", "you talk crap, it's not app centric", "Macs rule, peecee's suck", etc), Macs have lovely build quality. The 12" is quite damn heavy, and it's not exactly thin, but compares favourably against a PC counterpart with similar features. The 15" is probably even better with the gigabit ethernet and what-have-you. Just pray... and I mean, get dirty hands and knees on a dusty church floor, that your Mac comes without any faults. Busted pixels are not fixed until about 6 (or so) of them go the same way. If you go into a Mac store and ask to see the laptop before you buy, take a hike. They wouldn't allow me, and I've heard similar stories from others. (Yeeessss, I imagine others can tell different tales). I'm unsure about IBM on their pixel policy, but Dell apparently replaces machines with just 1; it may be one of those swing factors you take into consideration.

Also, if you're a programmer consider the keyboards carefully. I'm a great user of the #,delete+backspace,home,end,page up+down keys. The Mac does quite nicely by using the function key with the arrow keys to replicate all those, but not having a standalone delete button can be frustrating. Having a BSD command line at your finger tips as well as X11 is a godsend. It's like a suped-up version of Linux, which I really dig.

There's probably more to add but I doubt you've got this far ;) I love my new Mac by the way - but still, I reckon my desktop Athlon 1ghz is still faster! Bring on the slagging match :)




tom

[twistytie]

As a biplatform guy I can say that alothough my pc might be occasionally snappier, the fact that Windows (yes XP) is hideous and poorly organized cancels out any performance advantage.

I really just like to add a plug for the PB17 though. As a designer, it is the first notebook with enough screen for me to actually work on. When I need more room I just connect it to a 20" monitor. And despite a billion comments to the contrary, with a proper case, I find it to be TOTALLY PORTABLE. I routinely carry it 12 blocks in my Brenthaven bag without any trouble.

Also, for what it's worth, before I bought, I priced a comparable Alienware PC notebook and found that once it was similary equipped to the PB there was not a significant price difference.

[legion]

If you like OS X or need a Mac specific application (FCP, Logic), get the PB.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

For all other reasons get the T41p (though it is definitely overkill for your needs.)

1) It has a better battery life (at least 3 hrs longer than either of the PBs),

2) a more powerful graphics card with more RAM (FireGL Mobile T2 128MB is the highest GPU and RAM combo in laptops today)

3) higher screen resolution (1400x1050) than either PB,

4) better dimensions (thinner than the 15" and lighter than either),

5) runs cooler (no hotspots),

6) better build quality and better support (30 days no questions asked return policy, I've never seen a T40/p or T41/p with more than 1 dead pixel and you can exchange within the first 30 days even for 1 dead pixel, 24hrs-7days/12hr turnaround time in repair depot/free shipping/worldwide/3year warranty and support standard with actual knowledgeable people)

7)BlueTooth, a/b/g wireless (every current wireless networking standard), better reception (distance) than the PBs, IBM includes really great (custom) autoswitching software so you never have to fiddle with any settings once profiles are setup, Gigabit ethernet standard, WPA and WEP security configurable.

8) Best (full size) laptop keyboard on the market and dual pointing choices(trackpoint, trackpad) with scroll button/magnify button and programmable left/right and trackpad buttons (up to 6 possible independent programmable buttons)

9) Modular hard drives and you can have 2 hard drives in at the same time (plus it doesn't void any warranties to change things yourself since it's designed to be highly customizable)

10) and finally the 1.7Mhz P-M chip, 60GB 7200rpm, 2GB RAM max (and IBM does not screw around and fill both slots with RAM so you have to throw one stick out to upgrade; unlike Apple) will blow away any fully maxed PB on the market. It will excel by a major margin in performance.

Only sticking points for the T41p, no firewire (though 2 PCMCIA cardbus slots... so you can put in non-powered firewire-- or carry an external power supply and use a powered firewire PCMCIA card), no DVI out without the port replicator.

Expensive (though if you add AppleCare to a 17"PB you're about the same price)

As for the DVD-R/RW issue
The DVD-R/RW is expected by end of Jan or Feb '04 since Panasonic/Matsushtia (spelling screwed up on purpose since the filter screws the name up) finally (about 2 weeks ago) came out with a 9.5mm thin DVD-R unit which IBM will customize for the T series. That was the sticking point since no manufacturers were making DVD-R/RW units to fit such a thin space due to heat issues.

This is a reasonable analysis of the current laptop lineups.. not intended to inflame PB owners. If there is a justifiable disagreement with any of the reasonings above, I'd love to see it; I just don't want to start a flame war. I have all three machines available to me 40 hrs a week (new 15"PB, new 17"PB, T41p and T40p (the T40p now stays at the office or I let others borrow it)-- though the T41p is now my personal laptop, so I guess I have it now 24hrs/7days-- neither the T40p or T41p have ever failed me and both are (t41p)/were(t40p) my travelling laptops--no bluescreens and they are rarely turned off) However, I'm not a gamer... I'm a programmer, pro-audio, and pro-video guy and use these systems for those purposes (along with my desktop/workstation units)

[alsandro]

I am a graduate student as well and had exactly the same nightmare for a couple months until at last I made up my mind in favour of apple's 15" powerbook.

I owned a thinkpad for a few years and had never used an apple before except occasionally at campus labs. Loved my thinkpad and thought of buying the same brand but was somewhat unsatisfied with the design choices they have currently. Also they (IBM) neither give discounts for students nor offer any financing options unlike competitors.

Now, looking thru the reviews the performance of all of the high end laptops are similar (except for batteries) and my decision was based mainly on userfriendliness (comfortable keyboard, interface, etc..) and industrial design. The two best looking laptops (with the remarkable performance) I came across seemed to be powerbooks and gateway's recent 200 series machine. However, just in one trip to CompUSA I where you can see all those lined up one aside the other, I realized that nothing comes close with coolness to apple's recent offsprings.

If you're familiar with the apple website, follow the education link and you can get at least $300 discount on those powerbooks. Now i'm looking for an equally cool carry case for it...

Best,
am

[g808]

We're issued IBM Thinkpads here at work and I recently switched to a 17" PB as my primary work/personal computer. I've used the older T23 and T40.

I haven't used the Stinkpad since transferring all my files and email from it to my PowerBook. I wouldn't go back to that Stinkpad for anything. I love my PB. It's faster, more stable, and just all around more fun to use. I also found the larger screen more of a plus than I anticipated.

I never used OSX before switching, and have found it rather easy to learn. I felt the best way was to go cold turkey, and I haven't looked back.

[legion]

Originally posted by g808
I've used the older T23 and T40.

...

It's [17"PB] faster, more stable, and just all around more fun to use.

Just curious, but how is the 17"PB faster than the T40 you've used (applications, processes, etc.)?? What problems did you face on the T40? I believe that kind of information would be more helpful to the original poster than blanket statements/general impressions.

Realize, comparing a 17"PB to a T23 is an unfair comparison as the T23 is a model over 3 years old, but the T40 (even at 1.3Mhz; lowest spec-- definitely not what the OP is considering purchasing) should have been on par or better in performance than the 17"PB. I realize by "faster" you can't be considering the UI of OSX, because I think everyone will agree that OSX (even at Panther) is still lacking in snappiness over OS9 or WinXP. (which is why I don't place much value in comparing "snappiness" between platforms-- I'm usually more interested in the heavy-lifting performance of applications rather than the "eye candy")

[twistytie]

I think that the " snappiness" factor is exactly the opposite of what the previous poster seems to imply. As a graphic designer I think I can safely comment on "heavy lifting" and in this regard my PB17 1ghz at least feels much quicker when performing lengthy pixel manipulations in Photoshop or Illustrator than my P4 workstation. Conversely, my PC seems to at least feel a little faster in general GUI operation and then craps out doing anything I actually care about, leaving me to get up, make coffee and water a few houseplants while waiting for it to apply an unsharp mask filter.

It's interesting to me that most of the praise for the wintel machines seems to come from programmers. perhaps this percieved performance discrepancy is more software than hardware based.

[legion]

Originally posted by twistytie
.. my PC seems to at least feel a little faster in general GUI operation

That was what I was implying... that the GUI on PCs and OS9 seems snappier than OSX. My point, though, was a snappier GUI means nothing to me (I couldn't care less about "snappy") I don't think of any heavy lifting application performance as being able to be categorized qualitatively as "snappy" as that usually has to do with visual feedback (not necessarily what's happening under the UI) -- which leads me to the question of "what are the specs of the machines being compared?" So to twistytie, this P4, what's the chip, OS, and RAM? (and my previous questions for g808)

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by legion
8) Best (full size) laptop keyboard on the market and dual pointing choices(trackpoint, trackpad) with scroll button/magnify button and programmable left/right and trackpad buttons (up to 6 possible independent programmable buttons) But it's not backlit :p It may have a light, but it's at the top of the display so your hands block the light when you type.

Okay, I think I can break this down nice an' easy:
Comparing the stock T41p (U.S.) and the stock 17" PB (with AppleCare) Winner in bold, subjective areas, draws and areas with a lack of information have no winner.
Price: $3,379 - $3,348 (before student discount)
OS: XP Pro - Panther
Expandability: 2 PCMCIA type I/II, 1 Type III. 2 Ultrabay Slim expansion Bays. - 1 PCMCIA Type I/II
——Physical Size——
Thickness: 1" - 1"
Width: 12.2" - 15.4"
Depth: 10.9" - 10.2"
Weight (with battery)*: 5.4+ lbs. - 6.9 lbs.
——Display/graphics——
Card: Mobility FIREGL T2 128MB DDR RAM - Mobility 9600 64MB DDR RAM
Diagonal Size: 14.1" - 17"
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 - almost 16:9
Max/Native Resolution: 1400x1050 - 1440x900
External Video: 2048x1536 - 2048x1536
——Guts——
Processor: 1.70GHz Pentium M - 1.33 GHz G4
Cache**: 1MB L2 @ ? Mhz/GHz - 512KB L2 @ 1.33GHz
RAM: 512MB PC2700 SO-DIMM - 512MB PC2700 SO-DIMM
Max RAM: 2GB - 2GB
HD Size: 60GB - 80GB
HD Speed: 7200 RPM ATA/100 - 4200 RPM ATA/100
Optical: CD-RW/DVD - DVD-R/CD-RW
——Communications——
Modem: v.92 56k - v.92 56k
LAN: 1000BaseT - 1000BaseT
Wireless***: 802.11b w/ Bluetooth - 802.11g w/ Bluetooth
Infared: yes - no
——Sound——
Don't bother
——Power Management——
Heat: 72w - hot
Sound emissions: 36dB - quiet
Max battery life: 6.4 hours - 4.5 hours
—— Other Ports——
USB: 2 USB 2.0 - 2 USB 2.0
Audio: In/out - In/out
Firewire (IEEE 1394): No - 1 400Mbps, 1 800Mbps
Parallel: yes - no
Expansion: Dock, Replicator - FireWire, USB
Video: S-Video out, External Display**** - S-Video out, DVI out


phew Okay, I'm too tired to continue.
* The weight of the Thinkpad includes battery and expansion bay bezel, no optical drive. The weight of the PB includes battery and optical drive.
** I was unable to find any information on the cache speed, either from IBM or Intel
*** Adding the 802.11a/b/g mini PCI adapter adds $89 to the cost of the base system.

I hope you appreciate the hard work I went through to give you unbiased facts :D

[riwanami]

Butla,

I currently have a ThinkPad T40p and occasionally get to use the AL 15inch PowerBook that my sister has recently purchased.

I'll try to give you the best non-biased answers I can, because I think both are great computers, but each also has its own major flaws.


1. I think the most important thing regarding the screen is that the PowerBook is noticably brighter than my ThinkPad. In addition, the ThinkPad has a 1400 x 1050 resolution on a 14.1 inch LCD, which can make text and icons small. However, I haven't been completely sold on having a wide screen on notebooks unless you edit videos on them, but again this is just my opinion, so you should probably check it out at stores. (It's hard to find a T41p in stores though)

2. I think not having a FireWire and DVD-RW on a $3800 notebook is crazy, and I'm not sure why IBM refuses to do this. Having a DVD-R is really nice, especially when backing up your computer. If you go for the ThinkPad you'll probably end up buying an external hard drive or an external DVD-R because backing up 60GB of data on CDs is insane. I think you'll be ok without FireWire unless you do any form of video editing. In this case, you'll have to get a PC Card with Firewire ports which costs about $60.

3. The ATI Mobility FireGL T2 128MB graphics card that IBM installed on the ThinkPad T41p is certainly not an outdated graphics card. I don't think you'll have trouble playing games on the ThinkPad and you'll definitely have more games available on than on the PowerBook.

4. For what you'll be doing (Presentations, Word, Email, Web, Games, and Movies), you won't have any problems with either the ThinkPad or the PowerBook. In fact, both may be an overkill. That said, I've noticed that my Centrino 1.6Ghz ThinkPad is usually faster at day to day tasks, such as launching Word or PowerPoint compared to my PowerMac Dual 1.25Ghz. The PowerMac screams at rendering videos, but I use the Centrino as my day-to-day machine. (Also remember that Microsoft Office for Mac and Windows are different, and the current Office is rumored for an update soon, which may improve performance.)


5. Larger L2 Cache can bring significant improvement. But for what you'll be doing, 512MB of cache is enough and shouldn't be a deciding factor in choosing a PowerBook or the ThinkPad.

6. Again, the PowerBook has a brighter screen. However, if you are used to text on Windows screens, you'll have to get used to the Mac screens. I always thought that when running Microsoft Word for Mac and Windows side by side by using my sister's PB and my TP, the text on the screen looked a little fuzzier on the PowerBook. When typing documents, I personally prefer the ThinkPad because of this. I've also noticed this on my PowerMac Dual as well. However, you'll see that the screen on the PowerBook is perhaps one of the most beautiful on any notebook.

7. You'll definitely have to purchase new programs. Also, one thing I gave up doing was converting emails I had saved on my windows to Mac. I had about 10,000 emails on Microsoft Outlook Express that I wanted to convert to Entourage or Mail, but it was pretty difficult to do unless I forwarded each email.

Another problem is that video conferencing between PCs and Macs is still not very good. Finally, I've noticed that when transferring PowerPoint files from PC to Macs, some fonts in PCs just don't read on Macs, which will force you to make changes once you save it on the Mac. This is most likely a font problem and can happen between PCs, but it was always a problem for me.

I think OSX is the best OS out there right now. It's definitely more stable than any of Microsoft's offerings. Even as a mostly Windows user, I'm really amazed at how creative, stable, smooth, and easy it is. You won't have any problems learning and using most of OSX in few weeks.



8. I know you didn't have a number 8, but I think you should be concerned about several other things between the ThinkPad and the PowerBook:

A. Battery life on the PowerBook is horrible. I calibrated the PowerBook battery twice, but can only get about 2 hours and 15 minutes of use. My ThinkPad gets about 4 hours and 30 minutes. (Both had Wireless LAN on, bluetooth off, using mostly internet, email, and Word)

B. The Hard Drive on the ThinkPad is 7200rpm where as it's 4200RPM on the PowerBook (upgradeable to 5400rpm if you do the BTO) I think this can also have an effect on the overall performance of the computers.

C. The standard warranty on the PowerBook is 1 year parts/labor and 90day phone, which is one the worst standard warranties in the industry. The ThinkPad comes with a standard 3 year parts/labor/phone. I'd recommend that you buy the Apple Care Protection if you get the PowerBook.


D. The sound quality on the ThinkPad is mediocre at best. It's not really loud, whereas the PowerBook's speakers are much much better. However, neither of them compare to the quality of a good headset or external speakers. It's probably something you should get.

E. 2 Button mouse: I know the world is divided over this, but I've always wished that Apple would come up with a two button mouse/trackpad buttons on Powerbooks. Windows users are so used to the right-click that I often find myself "right-clicking" when using my Mac realizing that I've instead selected something.


I hope this helps, as I think both machines are great, and you'll be happy with either one.

[Counterfit]

If you do decide to go for the PowerBook, I recommend the 15", it seems like it will suit your needs much better than that monster they call the 17".

[Butla99]

Wow! Thanks for all the responses everyone. I still haven't made my decision, but I have all of my questions answered. I'll let you know what I decide in a few weeks hopefully. Thanks again! :)

[jevel]

Hi!

It's interesting to see that someone has had the same promblem that I did. I was looking to buy a replacement for my current IBM Thinkpad T22, and I was looking at the same setup as you do.

In my opinion I found the following points to be what tipped the scales for me:

[list=1]
The PB beats the T41 on design by a mile or so. I've been using IBMs since PII 300, but their design has always been practical, not for the looks.
Built in features. The PB has everything I need on a daily basis. That includes powered firewire and a backlit keyboard. I commute a lot, and during winter this comes in really handy as it turns dark at 3PM. (The newer IBM machines have the keyboard light placed in the screen, but after some use, the keyboard keys will start to reflect the light, making it annoying in stead of practical.
Screen. The PB screen is just plain better than the TP screen. It is brighter and colours seems to me to be more accurate. With my old T22 I often found that my latest presentations would turn out different on the projector than it did as I produced it. This is also due to the powersave function that drop the screen light down to a minimum I expect.
Price. The TP costs significantly more than the PB, even if you buy it through IBM's DataTeam offerings. I've found the T40 on DataTeam offering at about the same price, but that was the XGA version(!).
[/list=1]

And with my use which is primarily surfing the web, networking, wordprocessing, mail, some gaming, PS and FC, my choice fell on the PB.

When it comes to performance, I don't have too much to say yet, as I haven't received it yet. But my friend just bought the T41p, so I'll be able to do some head to head comparisons when the PB arrives...

I must say I'm really looking forward to it.

-KJ

[Packetloss]

I am in the same position as you are, however i got a Thinkpad T20 and it has worked extremely well, no faults.

Now i am considering the Powerbook 17" and i really love the design and the *NIX environemt as im used to Linux from the x86 world.


However i got some things to sort out.

Word processor, i do not want to use M$ Office as this is one of the reasons i buy the Apple, i want to get rid of M$ once for all.

What would you recommend as word processor?

I am thinking of converting all documents i type to PDF format and then distribute them to people when they want to share somehting with me instead of using *doc in Office as Windows users are used to.


The other thing is, how can i connect to M$ Exchange servers with OSX? i do not want to use Encourage or what it's called.

Any solution to this, open source maybe?

Last question...

Should i wait til January to buy the Powerbook or should i buy now?

Do you think it will actually come out a faster G4 Powerbook or even a G5 Powerbook in January?

[Packetloss]

Actually the Thinkpad T41p is not the top of the line Thinkpad anymore.

The R50p is currently IBMs top of the line which include just everything that the T41p doesnt have, like Firewire, DVD-R, 15".

The rest is the same when it comes to graphics card and CPU.

However the R50p is "very" expensive, very i might say.

[legion]

Originally posted by Packetloss
Actually the Thinkpad T41p is not the top of the line Thinkpad anymore.

The R50p is currently IBMs top of the line which include just everything that the T41p doesnt have, like Firewire, DVD-R, 15".

The rest is the same when it comes to graphics card and CPU.

However the R50p is "very" expensive, very i might say.

Actually, despite the "more expensive" R50p, the T41p is still considered the flagship of IBM because of its build quality (frame contruction, material: the T's body is Titanium Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic (Ti-CFRP) vs the A's ABS plastic], thinness) and that the T series will get the newest improvements from IBM's Yamato research lab first.

True the R50p has a DVD burner (it's also a thicker laptop which is why IBM could use a stock DVD burner in the bay) and a better screen (an In Plane Switching (IPS) LCD at 1600x1200 at 15" custom produced for IBM), but under the hood the mobo setup is exactly that of the T41p. The R50p (unlike the rest of the R50 series) does not have a firewire port (though it does have the 2 PCMCIA slots of the T series.) The rest of the R50 series has 1 firewire port (unpowered) and 1 PCMCIA slot (though it can take Type III cards.) Currently R50p is looked at as a T41p for those who want a 15" screen and don't mind losing the ruggedness and mobility of the T. (It also is looked at like the replacement for the A31p, which was IBM's first foray into a workstation laptop, though the R50p is lacking the extra bay that made the A31p special and only adopted the A31p's IPS screen. Originally (at its introduction), the R line was the consumer/cheap line for IBM until they discontinued the A line and so decided to make the R50p to fill the void where customers wanted a 15" hi-performance laptop)

[yakirz]

That poster suggested that Firewire is not a necessity. Maybe not in the PC world, but in the Mac world it is the standard.

Yes, now we have USB 2.0, but I will choose Firewire whenever possible.

One example: you can't connect an iPod to your Mac via USB 2 and charge it through the port, like you can with Firewire.

Originally posted by AmigoMac
It feels like a "general" point of view but with some hidden messages...

nevertheless, this topic feels like the one who really wants the PB but need a lot of reasons on paper to show his/her boss/wife/husband and convince everyone around that apple is the answer...

(That's what my cousin did) :p

Good luck and enjoy your PB

[yakirz]

I think it all comes down to the OS. Can you live with Windows, or do you want OS X?

I have a Dell Inspiron 3800, which I enjoy using. It has a 700 MHz PIII, DVD-ROM, 192MB, and 20 GB. Definitely not a top of the line system, but it was free (I won it in a drawing).

I also have an iMac Rev. C (266 MHz, CD, 288MB, 6GB, OS X 10.2). Though slower, I enjoy using my iMac more than my Dell. I wish every time I'm on my Dell that it was an iBook, even one a few hundred MHz slower. The OS is that important to me, even though some games I enjoy on the Dell (Midtown Madness 1 & 2, SimCopter) aren't available on the Mac.

[asphalt-proof]

The Thinkpad that you are considering is a work station grade computer. For what you will be doing with it you may consider the Powerbook. The Thinkpad is a bit overkill. I just recently switched and am very happy. I had no experience with Apple until I bought my iMac and merged right in... no growing pains at all. I think that you would be very happy with the PB or the IBM. I just think that that the $1000 more you pay for the Thinkpad could go to something more... like iTMS, movies, dates with chicks who are drawn to mojo-groovin'PB, etc.

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by legion
Actually, despite the "more expensive" R50p, the T41p is still considered the flagship of IBM because of its build quality (frame contruction, material: the T's body is Titanium Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic (Ti-CFRP) vs the A's ABS plastic], thinness) and that the T series will get the newest improvements from IBM's Yamato research lab first.

True the R50p has a DVD burner (it's also a thicker laptop which is why IBM could use a stock DVD burner in the bay) and a better screen (an In Plane Switching (IPS) LCD at 1600x1200 at 15" custom produced for IBM), but under the hood the mobo setup is exactly that of the T41p. The R50p (unlike the rest of the R50 series) does not have a firewire port (though it does have the 2 PCMCIA slots of the T series.) The rest of the R50 series has 1 firewire port (unpowered) and 1 PCMCIA slot (though it can take Type III cards.) Currently R50p is looked at as a T41p for those who want a 15" screen and don't mind losing the ruggedness and mobility of the T. (It also is looked at like the replacement for the A31p, which was IBM's first foray into a workstation laptop, though the R50p is lacking the extra bay that made the A31p special and only adopted the A31p's IPS screen. Originally (at its introduction), the R line was the consumer/cheap line for IBM until they discontinued the A line and so decided to make the R50p to fill the void where customers wanted a 15" hi-performance laptop)

You knew really alot about the IBMs, you work for IBM or a reseller?:)

[legion]

Originally posted by Packetloss
You knew really alot about the IBMs, you work for IBM or a reseller?:)

Nope. I just have my own private budget for my work so I research all my purchases which involves keeping up-to-date on any company I buy from (Apple, IBM, Avid/Digidesign, and other more specialized companies.) Luckily, over time I've built up quite a few higher-up contacts in these companies.

In the end it goes to justifing my purchases at the end-of-year to our CFO. They usually don't mind that I buy a lot of expensive "toys" as I do all my support/networking/etc as well. (I mean, after all, who really needs 4 laptops all bought in the last 10 months ;) )

[MattG]

As if there's a choice...get the Mac :)

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by asphalt-proof
The Thinkpad that you are considering is a work station grade computer. For what you will be doing with it you may consider the Powerbook. The Thinkpad is a bit overkill. The 17" PB is overkill too, unless you REALLY REALLY like watching DVD's and are planning to do it a lot without using external video.

[Butla99]

Thanks for answering all of my earlier questions everyone. I have a few more simple questions.

1. For anyone in Northern California: are there any IBM retail stores or other stores that carry IBM laptops so I can compare them to other brands?

2. For all of you switchers (from IBM, Dell, HP, etc...): was it easy to adjust to a new OS? Does Apple support all of the same software, like Word, Excel, Powerpoint (Keynote, right?), etc? Is it easy to transfer existing files from a PC (Gateway in my case) to a new Apple computer?

3. I have heard mixed responses about the keyboard stroke on PB 15" and 17". How is typing long documents on these machines?

4. Are the new commands numerous or difficult to learn (ctrl+alt+delete on PC, no true delete key on Mac that is equivalent to PC delete, cut/copy/paste, etc...)

Thanks once again for any answers to these questions. Feel free to add any additional comments or information that I might need/want to know before switching. :)

[i_wolf]

hi there,
Just a few things i think are worth pointing out.
Personally i went for the iBook. Thats another story but i do have access to a vaio zr centrino 1.6GHz.
Having used both iBook and vaoi battery life is fairly similar. The next point ive commented on a good bit before.
I have noticed that while the vaio smacks my iBook around in raw bench's and single apps , i have found that i am able to have more apps running at once at full speed on the iBook without slowing down. Is this the OS?? , or is it that a RISC processor like in the iBook is technically better designed for multitasking??!?! who knows?! For me this is the speed that counts and this for me makes my iBook faster than my sisters vaio!!! Since i regularly have 8 or 9 apps open at once.
I just thought that was fairly important.

In terms of games. You aint gonna beat the pc, its hands down probably one of the best gaming machines out there :P
You said that you were interested in mainly doing presentation with a bit of email word etc...
IMO, both thinkpad, powerbook are all extreme overkill for any of these tasks.
I would recommend an apple laptop to you for one main reason however. Keynote. This is an app on the mac that you just can't get on the pc and there is nothing else to compare to. I use this constantly for presentations at work. Its 10 times more professional looking than powerpoint (also runs on mac). You will find that using keynote when you have to do a presentation will make your presentation stand out more than your fellow students.
just my 0.02 !!!
i_wolf

[legion]

Originally posted by Butla99
Thanks for answering all of my earlier questions everyone. I have a few more simple questions.

1. For anyone in Northern California: are there any IBM retail stores or other stores that carry IBM laptops so I can compare them to other brands?


There are no IBM retail stores. There are a few IBM dealers that have a few display models, but rarely will you find any that have selling stock. Since the laptops are expensive, even if you do find a store that has some thinkpads, it'll usually only be the lower models (dealers are charged for display models so they won't open up a nice one unless you put down the money.) Since you've asked about Northern CA (which is a huge area), I'd suggest looking up on IBM's site for "business partners" or call IBM up and ask (or use their chat feature on the site and ask for the nearest large dealer (none of the small dealers will have display models-- so don't even bother with them.)) Since you've got your location marked as Bay Area, I'd check Stanford's computing center store or Berkley's. I'm fairly sure that Stanford will have some available for you to be hands-on with (just call ahead and ask.) Those are your best bets. Remember that you have to buy directly from IBM to get the 30 days no questions asked policy for returns (shipping paid for by IBM)-- IBM dealers' policies will vary.



3. I have heard mixed responses about the keyboard stroke on PB 15" and 17". How is typing long documents on these machines?


Best thing is to take something fairly long to an Apple Store and start typing. Since keyboards are fairly subjective, personal experience is best. This is what I usually do to test out new laptops. Also, even though the 15" and 17" have the same keyboard, typing on the two feels different (if only because the 17"'s keyboard is set so far back.)

My usual test, since I'm a touch-typist, is to go to a store and look around for some text in my line of sight and start typing for about 20 mins and then look over how many errors I have, examine how comfortable my hand placement was, if there were any odd key-combo placements (where you have to twist your hands to make "it" happen), and check if there are any hotspots on the typing surface (especially important with laptops) that will annoy me later. Some interesting results I've found to date include that the keyboard on the 10.6"WS Fujitsu P5000 has a more comfortable keyboard than the 16" Sony Vaios-- that's a result I would have never expected had I not taken the time to test in person because on paper it'd seem impossible.

[Packetloss]

One very important matter is the palmrest.

On the Thinkpad Txx series its made of Titanium.

Whats the deal with the Powerbook? is it all aluminum, or is the just parts that are?

Hear the palmrest on the Powerbook is plastic with sprayed aluminum coat.

Anyone know the truth about this?

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by Butla99
Thanks for answering all of my earlier questions everyone. I have a few more simple questions.

1. For anyone in Northern California: are there any IBM retail stores or other stores that carry IBM laptops so I can compare them to other brands?

2. For all of you switchers (from IBM, Dell, HP, etc...): was it easy to adjust to a new OS? Does Apple support all of the same software, like Word, Excel, Powerpoint (Keynote, right?), etc? Is it easy to transfer existing files from a PC (Gateway in my case) to a new Apple computer?

3. I have heard mixed responses about the keyboard stroke on PB 15" and 17". How is typing long documents on these machines?

4. Are the new commands numerous or difficult to learn (ctrl+alt+delete on PC, no true delete key on Mac that is equivalent to PC delete, cut/copy/paste, etc...)

Thanks once again for any answers to these questions. Feel free to add any additional comments or information that I might need/want to know before switching. :)

To answer some of your questions i think its a bad move to switch to Mac if you still plan on using MS Office.

Thats one of the reason many switchers switch to get get rid of MS once and for all.

MS Office is faster and much better working on Windows XP than OSX, so you will get a worse deal switching i might say if you primary goal is to used Office.

About the keyboard, no one can beat the keyboards on the Thinkpads, they are worldclass.

I've heard some Powerbook users that have switched that the keyboard is too small, i don't know if this is true but it's not like IBMs....

Well, i've tried OSX a bit and it's simpler and more straightforward than Windows, XP or 2000 is more technically pleasing with many levels to seek in which can be confusing for less advanced users.

The reason you switch to OSX which builds on a Unix core, that's the only and main reason i myself is considering OSX, i would never switch if Apple still used OS9.

However, MS is releasing Longhorn 2005/2006 which seems to be a real plagiat of OSX and Linux in some way, but it's still the same Windows core.......

The other thing you have to consider is the one mouse button thing, it's easy solvable, but it might get irritating.

However, the Powerbook got Bluetooth so you can buy a external bluetooth mouse, BUT, it doesnt work nicely, there is some lagging i heard with the mouse pointer.

You better get a USB mouse instead.

But there is one disadvantage more, if you buy the external mouse you still havent solved the problem as when you travel alot and go by the pigclass when you are flying you will notice that the one mouse button thing is stupid because its so hard to use a external mouse when you are sitting on the plane in a narrow space, even the PB 17" might be too big for you.

The Thinkpad is neat and you can take it anywhere, and remember its 1400x1050 resolution which is pretty high when you consider the low resolution of the PB 17" for its size.

And lastly, someone mentioned if you got the PB 17" you watch DVD movies, i can say that the DVD player for OSX is bad because it got the worst de-interlacing in the market, that might be a worthy consideration also if you are going to use it as a DVD player.

[riwanami]

[i]
1. For anyone in Northern California: are there any IBM retail stores or other stores that carry IBM laptops so I can compare them to other brands?

2. For all of you switchers (from IBM, Dell, HP, etc...): was it easy to adjust to a new OS? Does Apple support all of the same software, like Word, Excel, Powerpoint (Keynote, right?), etc? Is it easy to transfer existing files from a PC (Gateway in my case) to a new Apple computer?

3. I have heard mixed responses about the keyboard stroke on PB 15" and 17". How is typing long documents on these machines?

4. Are the new commands numerous or difficult to learn (ctrl+alt+delete on PC, no true delete key on Mac that is equivalent to PC delete, cut/copy/paste, etc...)

[/B]

1. I don't live in Northern California, so I can't help you here. If you do find a T41p, take a look at the R50p's screen as well. It's a 15inch Flexview display, which is brighter and has a wider viewing angle than the T41p.

2. Adjusting to OS X was easy. As I stated before in my previous post, I had trouble converting emails from Outlook Express to my Mac. I also had trouble viewing some PowerPoint files, as the fonts from the PC was not recognized on the Mac. However, for the most part, you won't have any problems transferring files from your Gateway to a PowerBook, as long as you have Microsoft Office for Mac installed. Probably, the easiest way to transfer is to copy your files in your Gateway into a CD-R disc, and just pop that disc into the PowerBook. For Office related files, photos (such as GIF, JPEG, TIFF), PDF files, MP3, MPEG, and WAV files, you won't have any problems reading straight off of the disc that you made on your PC.

3. I think the keyboard on the 15 and 17 inch AL PowerBooks is the best keyboard that Apple has ever installed on its PowerBook line. If you get the illuminated keyboard, you'll wonder why no one has come up with this idea earlier. The light is much better than the small light on the lid on the ThinkPad.

However, when typing long documents, I personally prefer the ThinkPad keyboard. It's more tactile and has more travel space. But this is just my personal preference.

4. The commands on the Mac are pretty straight forward and are pretty similar to Windows. For example, as Ctrl+C is copy on PCs, the "Open Apple Key"+C is Copy on Macs. (I'm not sure if they still call it the Open Apple Key) In any case, if you get a Mac, you'll never use Ctrl+Alt+Del again.

I hope this helps.

[legion]

Originally posted by Packetloss
One very important matter is the palmrest.

On the Thinkpad Txx series its made of Titanium.

Whats the deal with the Powerbook? is it all aluminum, or is the just parts that are?

Hear the palmrest on the Powerbook is plastic with sprayed aluminum coat.

Anyone know the truth about this?

The ThinkPad's palmrest is not made of Titanium. It is the only piece that doesn't use Ti-CFRP; it is ABS plastic.

If I remember right, the Powerbook palmrest is also plastic (I don't know which type) painted to match (but not an "aluminum" coat which would imply a metal coating.)

Either way, this shouldn't be a major concern other than reported "corroding" of the surface of the PB palmrest from human sweat/oils (IBM had a similar issue about 6 years back with one series and they ended up replacing the type of plastic used and sent replacement pieces to all the owners because the black finish was getting marred over time (1yr+)) It's all cosmetic (and nowhere near the 15" Ti Book's issues with paint)

I'd worry more about heat issues anywhere near your hands since that will affect long-term usablity if you type a lot.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by riwanami
If you get the illuminated keyboard, you'll wonder why no one has come up with this idea earlier. Second! Was it really that much of a stretch to make a backlit keyboard?

And I'll also toss in a vote for Keynote, those transitions beat the tar out of anything in PowerPoint.

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by legion
The ThinkPad's palmrest is not made of Titanium. It is the only piece that doesn't use Ti-CFRP; it is ABS plastic.

If I remember right, the Powerbook palmrest is also plastic (I don't know which type) painted to match (but not an "aluminum" coat which would imply a metal coating.)

Either way, this shouldn't be a major concern other than reported "corroding" of the surface of the PB palmrest from human sweat/oils (IBM had a similar issue about 6 years back with one series and they ended up replacing the type of plastic used and sent replacement pieces to all the owners because the black finish was getting marred over time (1yr+)) It's all cosmetic (and nowhere near the 15" Ti Book's issues with paint)

I'd worry more about heat issues anywhere near your hands since that will affect long-term usablity if you type a lot.

Actually you are wrong about the Titanium part, i checked that up with IBMs technical documents, that was true for the older Thinkpads like T20....

The T41 uses Magnesium now.

But it's bad that the palmrest is plain plastic because i got the old Thinkpad T20 and i have changed the palmrest twice due to wear.

It doesn't look nice after some time when you have typed alot:D

[legion]

Originally posted by Packetloss
Actually you are wrong about the Titanium part, i checked that up with IBMs technical documents, that was true for the older Thinkpads like T20....

The T41 uses Magnesium now.

But it's bad that the palmrest is plain plastic because i got the old Thinkpad T20 and i have changed the palmrest twice due to wear.

It doesn't look nice after some time when you have typed alot:D

Nope, I'm right. The html page you've seen is referring to the specs of the cover material. They used to explain it with more clarity (but it seems their html table loading specs are missing fields now.)

Taken from IBM's internal documents (pdf file: tabook.pdf):

"Magnesium alloy in the top cover, titanium-reinforced carbon fiber reinforced plastic
(Ti-CFRP) in bottom cover"

The X series uses a Titanium cover material, but the body/bottom material is Ti-CFRP. You can find more info on Ti-CFRP (which is an amalgamation of materials) in IBM's research website whitepapers.

Besides those documents, I have a T41p (typing on it now) and I've seen the internals. I've also never owned a T20, so I wouldn't be doing comparisons to that laptop (other Thinkpads I've owned were the 600series and butterfly 700series) (The T20/T30 form factors didn't impress me.)

[mj_1903]

If you want another opinion to throw in the mix...

The 15" PBook's are now fixed in terms of the screen problems (I would know, I work in an Apple store). As for not letting people have a look at laptops, its actually policy for us to show people the machines in case there are imperfections as it costs us money to send those machines back to get repaired and unhappy customers are unhappy customers...

As for the speaker quality, the PowerBook is amazing for a laptop. I have listened to Dell's, Toshiba's and a Thinkpad over the last year and the PowerBook has stunned me with the depth and breadth of the sound. Saying this though, its not perfect. It does have distortion (the 3 speakers are tiny) and its volume level doesn't compete with a stereo but its great for listening to DVD's or bumping out some beats whenever you need to. I am generally a classical listener and its great for that aspect.

Now, speed...always a tough one. Remember, MacWorld SF is just around the corner and I have heard rumors of a speed bump across the line and that is from Apple HQ. I never take people's word on updates though. :)

Hope your decision works out for you.

Mat

[legion]

Originally posted by mj_1903

As for not letting people have a look at laptops, its actually policy for us to show people the machines in case there are imperfections as it costs us money to send those machines back to get repaired and unhappy customers are unhappy customers...

interesting to know.. could come in handy down the line.


As for the speaker quality, the PowerBook is amazing for a laptop. I have listened to Dell's, Toshiba's and a Thinkpad over the last year and the PowerBook has stunned me with the depth and breadth of the sound. Saying this though, its not perfect.

I have to agree that the 17"PB has really good speakers for a laptop (better than the JBL speakers HP/Comapaq integrate into their workstation laptops.) The PB speakers have good depth of field, though I think the position/angle of the speakers is poor (pointing directly up and in the case of the 17", set far back near the LCD) It'd be great if they angled the drivers towards the listener as much as possible within the form factor.

[Butla99]

I was trying to figure this out from ATI's website, but that just confused me more. Obviously, the ATI 128MB Mobility FireGL T2 (used in the IBM T41p and R50p) has twice the MB of the ATI 64MB Radeon 9600 (used in PB 15" and 17"), but are they supposed to be optimized for certain applications? Will one work better for gaming/DVD's/etc. and one work better for detailed presentations and business-type appplications? Or is one just better and faster overall? I am not too familiar with all the terms relating to graphics cards, but I do know some and I know that bigger numbers are generally better (except when talking about time issues). Anyway, I am leaning towards one of the IBM notebooks over the PB (don't judge me, I love the PB's also but I am not sure that I am ready to switch) and wanted to make sure the Fire GL T2 was a great graphics card for all purposes, entertainment and business.

[legion]

Originally posted by Butla99
I was trying to figure this out from ATI's website, but that just confused me more. Obviously, the ATI 128MB Mobility FireGL T2 (used in the IBM T41p and R50p) has twice the MB of the ATI 64MB Radeon 9600 (used in PB 15" and 17"), but are they supposed to be optimized for certain applications? Will one work better for gaming/DVD's/etc. and one work better for detailed presentations and business-type appplications? Or is one just better and faster overall? I am not too familiar with all the terms relating to graphics cards, but I do know some and I know that bigger numbers are generally better (except when talking about time issues). Anyway, I am leaning towards one of the IBM notebooks over the PB (don't judge me, I love the PB's also but I am not sure that I am ready to switch) and wanted to make sure the Fire GL T2 was a great graphics card for all purposes, entertainment and business.

All the Fire GL cards are ISV certified. It tends to cost more to put cards through that testing and then "driver profiles" are created to able to be loaded for application specific needs (on-the-fly) The base GPU is a Radeon 9600, but with more RAM and a RAMDAC clocked at a slightly higher speed.

"Business" applications are never very graphic intensive ("detailed presentations and business-type appplications.") They could be run off of 16MB cards with no problem.

ISV applications are all 3D intensive apps (CAD/CAM, architecture, 3D modeling.) These apps require alot out of the GPU mostly for 3D rotation (usually buffering of surface maps, etc, which requires more RAM) Games would be the second most demanding group of applications on a GPU (only second because most of the time, gaming code can "cheat" since "what's going to happen next" can be predetermined and graphics can be, to a degree, pre-built-- unlike ISV apps where the user's input is much more random and a combination of those user inputs will effect the visuals.)

Entertainment (video watching, spanning, etc.) is far less demanding because usually those are hard-coded actions. The ATI Fire GL T2 128MB will act just like a Radeon 9600 Pro (except with powersaving features), with hardware accelerated OpenGL and DirectX9, all the time an ISV apps isn't used. In fact, you won't even take advantage of the ISV features unless you use the application profiles in the settings page. It will work transparently in the background and will not need "tending" to.

Simple answer, yes; it's an all around great graphics card. However, if all the specs listed on ATI's page threw you for a loop on the FireGL series of cards, you're mostly likely not a target user for this system and it'll be overkill.

[Butla99]

Legion, thanks for the input. I understand more than I made it seem like I do. Maybe not as much as you, but I am fairly competant. Anyway, a fully-loaded T41p or R50p probably is overkill, but I figure if I am going to spend $2500+ on a laptop I might as well go for broke and max it out. It will last longer, I will be happier, and I won't want/need to buy another one for awhile. Besides, at least part of the expense will hopfeully be a birthday/Christmas gift, the rest my credit card can handle. :)

[Skilz34]

I work with IBM ThinkPads, actually I repair them. Actually I work for, well you can figure it out. IBM's quality in ThinkPads have gone down the drain.......let me put it to you this way:

I just bought a Powerbook. Get a powerbook. IBM's ThinkPad's are not what they seem.

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by Skilz34
I work with IBM ThinkPads, actually I repair them. Actually I work for, well you can figure it out. IBM's quality in ThinkPads have gone down the drain.......let me put it to you this way:

I just bought a Powerbook. Get a powerbook. IBM's ThinkPad's are not what they seem.

Yeah right;)

The Thinkpad T-series is the best laptop you can buy for money when it comes to quality.

Try bring your shiny new Powerbook out on the field and you will notice what a solid construction you have with the Thinkpad as it's very hard to scratch them, at least so with my T20.

However i think Powerbooks comes at second place after my after thoughts about reviewing users opinion.

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by Butla99
I was trying to figure this out from ATI's website, but that just confused me more. Obviously, the ATI 128MB Mobility FireGL T2 (used in the IBM T41p and R50p) has twice the MB of the ATI 64MB Radeon 9600 (used in PB 15" and 17"), but are they supposed to be optimized for certain applications? Will one work better for gaming/DVD's/etc. and one work better for detailed presentations and business-type appplications? Or is one just better and faster overall? I am not too familiar with all the terms relating to graphics cards, but I do know some and I know that bigger numbers are generally better (except when talking about time issues). Anyway, I am leaning towards one of the IBM notebooks over the PB (don't judge me, I love the PB's also but I am not sure that I am ready to switch) and wanted to make sure the Fire GL T2 was a great graphics card for all purposes, entertainment and business.

As IBM states themself about the T41p.

"It's a laptop for the engineer on the move"

Which means its not really a laptop where the primary customers are homeusers or users that want to use it as a multimedia machine but have a powerfull laptop for CAD engineering and such, thats why IBM installed the Fire GL T2 into it.

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by legion
Nope, I'm right. The html page you've seen is referring to the specs of the cover material. They used to explain it with more clarity (but it seems their html table loading specs are missing fields now.)

Taken from IBM's internal documents (pdf file: tabook.pdf):

"Magnesium alloy in the top cover, titanium-reinforced carbon fiber reinforced plastic
(Ti-CFRP) in bottom cover"

The X series uses a Titanium cover material, but the body/bottom material is Ti-CFRP. You can find more info on Ti-CFRP (which is an amalgamation of materials) in IBM's research website whitepapers.

Besides those documents, I have a T41p (typing on it now) and I've seen the internals. I've also never owned a T20, so I wouldn't be doing comparisons to that laptop (other Thinkpads I've owned were the 600series and butterfly 700series) (The T20/T30 form factors didn't impress me.)

Alright, but i've also looked at that tabook file and it depends what model you are looking to, some got it, some doesn't.

However my T20 is almost as thin as the T40 or T41 so it's not a bad form factor, however the T30 is almost three times as thick as my T20 and i can agree that the T30 seems thick and ackward.

[Skilz34]

my man, no offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. I work for the big blue and support 300 employees, and the T series machines are bunk. The T20 and T21's are on there last leg. Of course there are good T's, but the 570 and 770 were more stable than the T's. The latest wave of T's are crap. T30's are selling for $900, can you guess why? I'd even recommend the R over the T.

[Skilz34]

another thing, the hard drives are the worst........T30 and new R40's had hard drive recalls up the ying yang.....I have at least several hard drive crashes a week

[macrumors12345]

Originally posted by Butla99

4. Processor/Bus: G4 1.33GHz/167MHz (PB's) vs. Pentium-M 1.7 GHz/400MHZ (IBM)


Just a minor point: the IBM is actually a 333 Mhz effective bandwidth bus, not 400 Mhz. This is because the memory bandwidth is only 333 Mhz effective (PC2700 DDR). This is basically just the opposite of the G4 situation...the G4 has 333 Mhz effective memory bandwidth, but the FSB is only 167 Mhz effective, so the bandwidth is effectively only 167 Mhz despite the DDR memory.

However, it should be noted that in terms of memory *latency* (as opposed to bandwidth), the Powerbook is actually much better than the Centrino. The Powerbook has a true 167 Mhz FSB, whereas the Centrino only has a 100 Mhz FSB. Yeah, it is quad pumped for 400 Mhz theoretical bandwidth, but double and quad pumping doesn't help reduce latency!

That said, I think the Centrino will still have something of an advantage in scalar int and fp stuff, while the G4 will have an advantage for vector stuff. Either will probably be more than sufficient to meet your needs.

I'd definitely go with the Mac, but that is just me...I appreciate something that is well designed with an attention to detail, and works like it should. =)

[ZildjianKX]

I'd definately get a thinkpad if I got a laptop right now. I'm a mac freak, but until the mac laptops get faster and have better battery life, there is no question in my mind.

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by Skilz34
another thing, the hard drives are the worst........T30 and new R40's had hard drive recalls up the ying yang.....I have at least several hard drive crashes a week

That's a damn lie!

At least i "know" what i talk about and my experience as i work as consultant and we all got Thinkpads on the field and they almost never fail.

Regarding the harddrives that is completely flame from you side.

Hitachi Storage Systems delivers most drives and they are extremely well built.

Don't tell people lies just because you love Apple.

[Skilz34]

lol, dude, I bought an apple for music. I didn't even know what a Powerbook 6 months ago. holla

[Counterfit]

Well, thank you for such an informative post. I'm sure both Butla99 and packetloss, along with the rest of the forum, are the better off for it. :rolleyes:

[legion]

Originally posted by Counterfit
Well, thank you for such an informative post. I'm sure both Butla99 and packetloss, along with the rest of the forum, are the better off for it. :rolleyes:

I agree with Counterfit. Also, HGST also supplies drives for the PBs (at least, it has in the past.) HGST also happens to be the number 1 supplier of hard drives for blade servers for continous long-lasting performance (always on scenario)

Skilz34.. you're a fraud. To what end, I have no idea (since you don't help out the Apple side or the IBM side by your rants.) All I can tell is you don't know what you're talking about and are fabricating stories.

[Mord]

Originally posted by Packetloss
I am in the same position as you are, however i got a Thinkpad T20 and it has worked extremely well, no faults.

Now i am considering the Powerbook 17" and i really love the design and the *NIX environemt as im used to Linux from the x86 world.


However i got some things to sort out.

Word processor, i do not want to use M$ Office as this is one of the reasons i buy the Apple, i want to get rid of M$ once for all.

What would you recommend as word processor?

I am thinking of converting all documents i type to PDF format and then distribute them to people when they want to share somehting with me instead of using *doc in Office as Windows users are used to.


The other thing is, how can i connect to M$ Exchange servers with OSX? i do not want to use Encourage or what it's called.

Any solution to this, open source maybe?

Last question...

Should i wait til January to buy the Powerbook or should i buy now?

Do you think it will actually come out a faster G4 Powerbook or even a G5 Powerbook in January?

dont you just hate it when you ask a question in a forum and people just move on like you havent said any thing

moveing swiftly on just dl open office it runs just fine through x11 if you want simplicity use appleworks it's not bad it just dose not have some fetures that I personaly don't use it suits me justt fine what I don't understand is why people just run to m$ I cant stand office and only use open office when I have to

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by Hector
dont you just hate it when you ask a question in a forum and people just move on like you havent said any thing

moveing swiftly on just dl open office it runs just fine through x11 if you want simplicity use appleworks it's not bad it just dose not have some fetures that I personaly don't use it suits me justt fine what I don't understand is why people just run to m$ I cant stand office and only use open office when I have to

Yes right and it is a shame that SUN doesn't release Star Office 7.0 to OSX.

I actually tried the latest Star Office 7 on my Linux machine and they have come very long.

Actually it is so mature you can use it as an alternative to MS Office.

[iChan]

I don't know performance-wise which type of laptop you should, the apple powerbook or Thinkpad.

but I got my first Apple about a year ago only and I didn't find it difficult to switch at all... in fact, I found it easier to switch than to go through all the troubles with a windows-based machine... one thing I love about MacOS X is how I have barely ever had to do a re-install...

but on the one occasion that i did because I wanted a fresh system for Panther, the install time after verification of the disc was only 18 minutes!!! WOW!!!

that is after customizing my install to exclude the languages and Printer drivers I don't need... but still... it's fantastic.

The whole user experience is also so much better... the visual splendor is there for all to see! I mean, every time I go back a windows (XP) machine that my kid sisters use at home, I can't get over how BORING everything is... I know it is customisable, but how many people actually want to go through the effort??? One example I have are the icons... they are so so so so bad in windows. in MacOS, you make them as big as you want and there is no pixellation!!! fantastic!!

I could never go back to such a boring, dull, static OS that is windows in a million years after experiencing the dynamic, almost organic user experience of MacOSX.

everything just seems so right...

try it man, and be in for one of those epiphany thingys...

[Counterfit]

18 minutes for a Panther install? Hmmm... I think you should be a bit more specific on what took 18 minutes.

[diehldun]

as you all know by know, i just recieved my long-awaited PowerBook 17-inch beauty! :)

however, i was soooooo excited about setting up the pb that the next morning, i woke up the entire house at (seriously)
4:01 AM, and by around 4:30, the computer was set to go! unfortunately, i then realised that the pb had jaguar installed on it (the Apple Store had assured me that it was already w/ Panther). however, it turned out that the Apple Store opened all the PB's boxes, took out the Jaguar CD's, and put in panther ones.

so, I had to load Panther onto my computer. Unfortunately, i was downstairs drinking a glass of water while my father (never used a Mac; calls it a "cult" :confused: )

i don't really know if he did a clean install or just upgrade. but whatever he did, what should have been a 20-minute ordeal took an unbelievable 46-minute affair.

i had absolutely NO idea that Panther took such a long time to upgrade.

and also, so far, no problems with Panther. everything running ok.

[Counterfit]

I'm still confused... Oh well, don't worry about it. Glad to hear you like it :D

[pimentoLoaf]

The hardware really doesn't matter so much as the operating sytem's ability to stay viable for long periods. And if you want a crash-proof system, the Mac is the only way to go.

In eight months of PC ownership (a 15" 2.4ghz Toshiba), WindowsXP Home crashed straight out of the box almost every day, with IE & Outlook Express fouling every few days. Sometimes the system wouldn't even boot unless I turned off the machine for a minute or more, or after rebooting a half-dozen times (on average).

In a bit over two months, neither Jaguar or Panther has ever crashed, though one game, "Medal of Honor", freezes occasionally and requires a reboot.

Buy a Mac and never (OK... very very rarely) worry about crashes.

[Packetloss]

I don't understand one thing, Mac users associate a PC machine with Windows "always".

Who said this guy would use Windows in the first place?

I have Linux Gentoo installed on mine and has been like that for the last year, before that i had Slackware installed.

Most often you dualboot with Windows "if" you really need it.

A Thinkpad with any BSD or Linux distro is serious stuff and it's fast, really fast.

Good hardware and a good operating system.

Windows got nothing to do with if you buy the Thinkpad or Powerbook, however the Thinkpad can run most OSs compared to the Powerbook and you can run latest SUN StarOffice 7 on it.

Your choice, and it's a hard choice between these two laptops because they are good at everything and it all really comes down what you want to do with your laptop.

[Skilz34]

Skilz34.. you're a fraud. To what end, I have no idea (since you don't help out the Apple side or the IBM side by your rants.) All I can tell is you don't know what you're talking about and are fabricating stories.



As much as I enjoy posting in a forum, I apologize for not taking it as seriously as you do. I chose to use my precious time to post here in order to help (so I thought) someone concerning IBM ThinkPads. So the only fabricating going on are in your nylons. Loosen them up.

Oh, and allow me to take a side:
Go Apple!

[Packetloss]

You should also consider the warranty, with the Powerbook you only get 1 year when you buy it, and you can get 2 more years if you buy the expensive Apple Care Protection Plan for $349.

With the IBM you get full 3 year warranty at once at no extra charge.

That's something to consider also, but it also shows the extreme high buildquality that the IBMs got, however the Powerbook isn't bad either.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by Skilz34
Skilz34.. you're a fraud. To what end, I have no idea (since you don't help out the Apple side or the IBM side by your rants.) All I can tell is you don't know what you're talking about and are fabricating stories.



As much as I enjoy posting in a forum, I apologize for not taking it as seriously as you do. I chose to use my precious time to post here in order to help (so I thought) someone concerning IBM ThinkPads. So the only fabricating going on are in your nylons. Loosen them up.

Oh, and allow me to take a side:
Go Apple! I know I shouldn't but... When someone asks a serious question, especially regarding the purchase of a hard care laptop such as a PowerBook or ThinkPad, they would prefer serious, well thought out replies with links and/or facts. Your post (in case you forgot): lol, dude, I bought an apple for music. I didn't even know what a Powerbook 6 months ago. holla Notice how it contains nothing pertaining to the topic. No swaying arguments, no links, two "facts" that don't even matter. Butla did not say he/she was going to use the laptop for music, and he/she apparently already knows what a PowerBook is. The kicker? You started with "lol, dude" and ended with "holla", sure signs that the post will probably be devoid of any intellectual content, which Packetloss, legion, and others have in spades (maybe then can lend you some :p).

[yakirz]

I always liked the ability to dual boot, whether OS 9 and OS X, or Windows and Linux.

But in every day practice, it's a pain in the ass. I had planned to repartition my Inspiron 3800 into a 16 GB Linux and a 4 GB Windows. But it always turns out, after I'm happily working away in Linux, someone at work will need me to access a MS Publisher doc, or need me to look at a work-related PC cd. I sure don't want to spend much time in Windoze, but it often becomes necessary.

So I decided to hold off on Linux for now.

On the Mac side, I've been looking for a 667-867 TiBook, so I can dual boot OS 9 and X. This is because I still use Virtual Game Station, and have Virtual PC 3 and don't plan to upgrade anytime soon. I think I'd boot into OS 9 on occasion, also, for sentimental reasons :p

[Skilz34]

Countertwit......

I heard the crowd go "oooooooooh" when you made those fantastic retorts. Nice! You should start your own website about forum etiquette. I apologize, I didn't mean to work you up. I'll send you some prune juice to relax you so you can handle these serious life issues.

You're a geek.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by Skilz34
You're a geek. Thanks for stating the ****ing obvious. And nice play on my name, shows your maturity level very nicely :rolleyes:

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by yakirz
On the Mac side, I've been looking for a 667-867 TiBook, so I can dual boot OS 9 and X. You don't want a 1 GHz TiBook? They can boot into 9 too, and will be quite a bit faster ;)

[Skilz34]

Sorry, I didn't know what **** means, I guess that's reverse rainbow talk.

Take care man, been nice jabbing w/ya :)

[yakirz]

I didn't think the 1GHz could dual boot... interesting.

I'd love a 1 GHz TiBook... But the little issue of money gets in the way :eek:

Though I don't have a wishlist site, I do accept donations... ;)

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by yakirz

Though I don't have a wishlist site, I do accept donations... ;)


You got to be poor first before people accepts sending donations:D

[yakirz]

I'm poor, that's why I'm scrounging for a 667 MHz machine!

Right now I'm surviving on an iMac 266 and a Dell Inspiron 3800 :o

I need a new Mac!

[Counterfit]

You have my condolences, but not my money! :p







Oh wait, I don't even have money for myself...