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MacRumors
Dec 8, 2003, 01:06 PM
Appleinsider reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=263) that Microsoft "will officially renew its commitment" to the Mac platform at the upcoming MacWorld San Francisco in January.

Microsoft is said to be working on upgrades for the Mac version of Microsoft Office with a new project manager and a significant focus on Entourage. The new version is expected to be announced at Steve Jobs' Keynote speech for MacWorld Expo. In addition, updates to MSN Messenger and Remote Desktop Connection client are expected in the next year.

Appleinsider also reports that Virtual PC 7.0 will also be announced and delivered in the same timeframe as the new Office package. Virtual PC 7.0 would bring long anticipated G5 compatibility to the popular emulation software.

While Microsoft acquired Virtual PC (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/02/20030219155858.shtml) from Connectix primarily for its Windows versions of VPC, Microsoft's Mac Business Unit has promised ongoing active development of the Mac version. Due to changes in the G5 architecture, prior versions of Virtual PC have remained incompatible with the PowerMac G5s.

Updated: Mac4ever.com (http://www.macrumors.com/c.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mac4ever.com%2FActu.php%3FAnneeRECHERCHER%3D2003%26MoisRECHERCHER%3D12%26Jo urRECHERCHER%3D01%238226) (French) reported on December 1st an interview with a Microsoft representative at MacExpo in London. In their video interview, the rep felt that Virtual PC for G5 would likely be released in February 2004 and Microsoft Office 2003 for Mac would be released in the Summer of 2004

ITR 81
Dec 8, 2003, 01:08 PM
Looking forward to VPC7 and what kinda of support it has for games if any.

Wes
Dec 8, 2003, 01:09 PM
Finally I can get MSN 6.0 (Or Mac equivalent).

leet1
Dec 8, 2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Looking forward to VPC7 and what kinda of support it has for games if any.

Probably won't support games just like the current one doesn't, unless they've figured out a way for it to use the graphics card.

gif32
Dec 8, 2003, 01:12 PM
Great! I was always afraid Microsoft would change its mind and leave the Mac users in the cold. I for one would never have been able to justify my PowerBook if it didn't run the same word processor / spreadsheet / etc as Windows users.

So why does Microsoft continue to support the Mac? What's in it for them? Certainly the $$ they make selling their software on OS X doesn't account for the money they *could* make if they dropped Mac support so people like me would've had to buy Windows again...

leet1
Dec 8, 2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by gif32
So why does Microsoft continue to support the Mac? What's in it for them? Certainly the $$ they make selling their software on OS X doesn't account for the money they *could* make if they dropped Mac support so people like me would've had to buy Windows again...

Don't you have to buy or own a microsoft OS with VPC?

dracoleb
Dec 8, 2003, 01:18 PM
Microsoft is a software company, it shouldn't matter to them what platform it runs on, as long as they sell the software

g4pismo
Dec 8, 2003, 01:24 PM
It would be nice if M$ spent a little time with the directX support.. That would bring a lot more switchers to the Mac camp. dare to dream...

ITR 81
Dec 8, 2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by leet1
Don't you have to buy or own a microsoft OS with VPC?

I believe he's referring to Mac Office 2004.

I can honestly say that Mac Office student ver. I bought is alot better then Office Xp..can't say much the new Office since I've never used it.

dr_lha
Dec 8, 2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by dracoleb
Microsoft is a software company, it shouldn't matter to them what platform it runs on, as long as they sell the software

Which is of course why they sell a Linux version of Office. MS's continued support of Office on the Mac is a bit puzzling as I bet the return on their investment for developing it is tiny compared to the Windows version.

I stil expect MS to cut Mac off at the knees sometime in the future, hopefully by then there will be a OSX native port of OpenOffice.

ITR 81
Dec 8, 2003, 01:28 PM
Apple will have it's own copy of Office by then. They've been working on Word like processor for awhile now..so it's just matter of time before they release a excel like app and call it xOffice or something like that.

mactastic
Dec 8, 2003, 01:32 PM
Good news. I use VPC quite a bit because I'm always dealing with architects and Autocad (Autodesk, please please release your software for OSX!). I always get funny looks with my powerbook, people are always asking how come I use a computer that I can't run Autocad on, and I fire up VPC with Autocad and show them. Just for fun sometimes I'll put my computer to sleep with XP running full screen, then when I wake it up in front of someone they think I'm running Windows on my powerbook. Very amusing. Although I'd like it better if I could use this for my main design platform instead of the office PCs. Then I'd only need VPC for the very few pieces of analysis software I use that are only written for the PC.

nexus810
Dec 8, 2003, 01:36 PM
On Microsoft's support page there is a product listed called Virtual PC 2004.

dont know if that means naything or not.


What blows is I bought VPC6 befor ei got my G5 and then due to Delays I got the G5 after the 30 day return policy. I was basically screwed and lost the 200 dollars or whatever.... How annoying is that.

arn
Dec 8, 2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by nexus810
On Microsoft's support page there is a product listed called Virtual PC 2004.

dont know if that means naything or not.


that's the PC version.

arn

DamnDJ
Dec 8, 2003, 01:43 PM
I think it would be great if Jobs lets Microsoft do a presentation on stage for Office 2004, and once the manager for Microsoft MBU walks off stage, Job's then goes on to introduce Apple's "Office" package.

"You've seen the good product Microsoft is going to deliver. Now see our insanely great product!"

MacsRgr8
Dec 8, 2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Apple will have it's own copy of Office by then. They've been working on Word like processor for awhile now..so it's just matter of time before they release a excel like app and call it xOffice or something like that.

Yeah, we have read many rumors about this, but no evidence has ever surfaced, has there?
I believe M$ wants the Mac where it is now: Large enough marketshare so that M$ is not truly a monopolist when it comes to operatings systems for home PC's, but small enough not to be of any real threat to the M$ dominance (not monopoly).
For Apple to have success at the office there must be a version of M$ Office installed. So even the Mac users "need" M$ Office on their Mac. OpenOffice (or other office-like apps like ThinkFree) do work but the compatibility is not perfect.

If you have a Mac, buy Office for Mac, and buy Virtual PC with Windows, you are paying M$ alot of money, and you don't even use a PC! Could be that the Mac users are spending more money on M$ products than PC users.....

SiliconAddict
Dec 8, 2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Apple will have it's own copy of Office by then. They've been working on Word like processor for awhile now..so it's just matter of time before they release a excel like app and call it xOffice or something like that.

Having the app is only part of the equation. People generally know that if they purchase Office its going to be compatible with 90% of the other office users out there. Businesses don't like playing games with productivity and cost and if they rolled out a version of Open Office and the like and its not 100% compatible users would be up **** creek. Trust me on this. The business world wants to get the heck away from Microsoft Office but do you know how many .DOC .XLS .MDB files are sitting out there in the world. There needs to be a guarantee that if you install iOffice itís just going to work with anything. (We wonít get into the discussion that even versions of Office arenít always compatible with previous versions though.)
Also its a forgone conclusion that if Microsoft gets so much as a spore of a scent that Apple is making an Office like app they would kill office for Mac in a heartbeat. (Shades of Internet Exploder for Mac.)

If Apple does have an office productivity suite in the works is buried so far under its corp HQ that an Independence Day saucer couldn't touch it. You can bet itís highly secretive.

Microsoft will look for ANY excuse to kill off Office because I question how much of a return on investment they get on it. For Windows all they need is a current version of VPC and bundle a plain vanilla version of Windows with that. Office is an entirely different ballgame. Honestly the real reason Microsoft still supports the Mac is for a convenient excuse. Anytime the Antitrust monster rolls in and claims monopoly and that there is no competition they can point to Apple and say SEE we have them. Revenue from Mac sales has to be pathetic in comparison to Windows. They are most likely spending a ton of cash to support less then 5% of the market.

With that being said I ainít going to complain if they bring out new versions of Office and VPC. As long as they have at least 1 version of a functioning VPC on the G5 series I, and many others Iím guessing, will be happy. I doubt Apple and IBM will be doing a major revamp to the PPC architecture where it breaks VPC for a while.

Flowbee
Dec 8, 2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by gif32

So why does Microsoft continue to support the Mac? What's in it for them?

As long as they have a development team working on Mac products, MS is always 'in the loop' with regard to upcoming Mac OS and hardware development.

"Keep your friends close... but keep your enemies closer."

AmigoMac
Dec 8, 2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by DamnDJ
I think it would be great if Jobs lets Microsoft do a presentation on stage for Office 2004, and once the manager for Microsoft MBU walks off stage, Job's then goes on to introduce Apple's "Office" package.

"You've seen the good product Microsoft is going to deliver. Now see our insanely great product!"

Let the monkey boy dance ... just a 20th anniversary gift...

I tried once with VPC5, but didn't find real use for i, I got 384 RAM with my 12" rev A. PB and decided to delete VPC... maybe I'll get VPC, after Apple releases PB G5...

aethier
Dec 8, 2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by DamnDJ
I think it would be great if Jobs lets Microsoft do a presentation on stage for Office 2004, and once the manager for Microsoft MBU walks off stage, Job's then goes on to introduce Apple's "Office" package.

"You've seen the good product Microsoft is going to deliver. Now see our insanely great product!"


The thing is though, is i doubt that Apple, if they do make an office wannabe app, that it will be at all able to compete with microsoft office. Microsoft Office is a great application, i do not think apple should bother compeating with them. i have office but still bought keynote when it came out to give it a try, and aside from a tiny selectiiion of cool looking animations, PowerPoint is what i use and Keynote is not even installed anymore

aethier

kenaustus
Dec 8, 2003, 02:00 PM
Since I have to use one proprietary Windows app I'm looking forward to a version of VPC that will work well with the G5. Fact is, I can't consider a G5 until that last bit of software is in place.

MS isn't going to kill off Office for Mac anytime soon. If Apple comes out with a similar package they will simply compete harder. Leaving any OS environment for other Office apps would be leaving them open to having Office pulled into the public domain, which would be a killer for MS.

SiliconAddict
Dec 8, 2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
As long as they have a development team working on Mac products, MS is always 'in the loop' with regard to upcoming Mac OS and hardware development.

"Keep your friends close... but keep your enemies closer."

Probably no more in the loop then any other developer that subscribes to ADC. *shrugs* You can bet that Microsoft gets absolutely NO preferential treatment when it comes to new software/hardware rumors. Heck Iím willing to bet that there are a few people at MS assigned to sites like Macrumors to keep abreast of the developments on the Mac. Who do you think are the people marking negative all the time on things like Panther Released news. ;)

Remember. Microsoft is the most paranoid company on the planet.

So: EVERYONE WAVE HI TO THE GUYS IN REDMOND!!! ***WAVES***

the future
Dec 8, 2003, 02:15 PM
I doubt it will happen, but I would love Apple to come out with a great, native word processing application. I just hate MS Office, it gets in the way all the time changing things in documents that I don't want to change just because the ********** app thinks it can guess what I *really* want to do instead of what I'm actually doing (which it can't, obviously). Smells like Windows, in other words, and I'd love to get rid of it.

nspeds
Dec 8, 2003, 02:20 PM
Most people go for Office because of the name, usually when people think of a word processor they think of Word.

Its like Coke or Pepsi.

Hopefully the new entourage will be similar to the current Outlook 2003. I beta tested 2003 and it is so awesome.

MS better not implement activation.

Sailfish
Dec 8, 2003, 02:20 PM
There's one over at ThinkSecret, Marcus

He admits he works at Redmond.

We ask him how he can live with himself, he says he doing it until he can get enough money to start his own buisness.

In realitiy he can't remove himself from Gates teat.

matthew24
Dec 8, 2003, 02:22 PM
MS could gain a lot of goodwill by doing this. Office is a great app. I like Outlook/ Exchange on the PC side very much.

Only if MS is willing to bring Exchange to OSX server, they show that they are willing to give their competitors a fair treat, if not Apple should take precautions.

Hawthorne
Dec 8, 2003, 02:29 PM
Hopefully the project management software will be compatible / identical to MS Project. We've got Omnigraffle Pro 3 to work with Visio now, but being left out in the cold right now re: Project sucks.

pandaba
Dec 8, 2003, 02:33 PM
From what I've heard, the MBU is one of the more solid profit centers at Microsoft. Its large enough of a profit that its worth maintaining.

bitfactory
Dec 8, 2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by matthew24
MS could gain a lot of goodwill by doing this. Office is a great app. I like Outlook/ Exchange on the PC side very much.

Only if MS is willing to bring Exchange to OSX server, they show that they are willing to give their competitors a fair treat, if not Apple should take precautions.

EXCHANGE CLIENT TALK:
that's exactly it - their "exchange compatible" update to Entourage this year was a JOKE - probably the biggest disappointment of the year for me.

if they REALLY integrate Entourage into Outlook (at least up to par with Outlook 2001 in OS9) - i'd buy dozens of copies for our organization ALONE.

c'mon M$ - time to do the right thing.

johnnyjibbs
Dec 8, 2003, 02:43 PM
I always thought that Microsoft only had two profitable products: Windows and Office. (Too bad just about every computer on the planet has both of them and they aren't exactly cheap).

Office for Mac is still a good revenue stream for them as it has a bigger market share on the Mac than Windows, although admitedly the actual numbers of Mac users pale into insignificance.

An update must be coming because my student and teacher copy of Office specifically says: "Not eligable for updates" meaning I'll be screwed when they 'update' the file format :p :mad: :D

QuiteSure
Dec 8, 2003, 02:46 PM
... I think that Bill Gates is smart enough that he keeps at least one Mac around running the most current operating system. He needs to have a compatible version of Office so that he can read his employees' files.:p

impierced
Dec 8, 2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by bitfactory
EXCHANGE CLIENT TALK:
that's exactly it - their "exchange compatible" update to Entourage this year was a JOKE - probably the biggest disappointment of the year for me.

if they REALLY integrate Entourage into Outlook (at least up to par with Outlook 2001 in OS9) - i'd buy dozens of copies for our organization ALONE.

c'mon M$ - time to do the right thing.

Here, here!!! A complete joke indeed. Though I'm doubtful that we'll ever see a "native" Outlook client for Mac OS X.

BenRoethig
Dec 8, 2003, 02:57 PM
Why does MS make Mac products?
1. To make money.
2. If Apple went under, the DOJ would break them up like they did with AT&T

3.1416
Dec 8, 2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by dr_lha
MS's continued support of Office on the Mac is a bit puzzling...I stil expect MS to cut Mac off at the knees sometime in the future, hopefully by then there will be a OSX native port of OpenOffice.

Here's my unfounded speculation: Microsoft would like to discontinue Mac Office, but if they did Apple would swiftly release their own office suite *and* OS X for x86. Microsoft doesn't want this; they'd probably win, but there's a small chance it could crack their monopoly, and there's no reason for them to risk it.

Conversely, Apple doesn't want to incur Microsoft's wrath, so they'll keep iOffice under wraps unless absolutely necessary.

~Shard~
Dec 8, 2003, 03:13 PM
Iím personally more interested to see what announcements will be made regarding Office 11. Iím running the latest Office v.X right now, and itís not that I need Office 11, but itís always nice to see updates for products like this, and nice to see that Microsoft isnít leaving Apple ďout in the coldĒ after striking up this agreement with them Ė it would not surprise me at all for MS to back out on a deal!

I use Mail, so I donít care about Entourage, but I do use Excel and Word extensively, so it will be nice to see what kind of updates are announced.

~Shard~
Dec 8, 2003, 03:14 PM
Oh, and one other thing Ė I really hope they change the filename lengths in the next update for Office. Why on Earth did they make 32 chars the max length for a filename in the first place??? Thatís a pain whenever Iím copying over PC files to my Mac.

JoeRadar
Dec 8, 2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
I always thought that Microsoft only had two profitable products: Windows and Office.
The Windows desktop and Office divisions account for 86% of MS's profits. The Server division makes the rest. The remaining four divisions are all unprofitable right now.

I am not sure under which division the Mac business unit falls.

~Shard~
Dec 8, 2003, 03:16 PM
Itíll be great if these updates are announced @ MWSF. Hopefully there is going to be a good mix of software and hardware announcements. But I wonder how many announcements are reasonable to expect Ė after all, there are rumors of a new iMovie, Office 11, VPC 7, PowerMac speed boosts, LCDs, xServes, iPod updates, and then the more speculative ones like G5 iMacs, G5 PowerBooks... Jobs canít possibly announce all of these things, can he? ;)

Iím thinking more like 4 or 5 announcements, 2 or 3 of those being major ones, are more likely @ MWSF. But more is always welcome!

k2k koos
Dec 8, 2003, 03:17 PM
Sure Microsoft office for X is a nie peice of software with potential, just like it has on the PC's, but MS needs to finish te products they deliver on a mac, not the same sloppy programmign style they are up to on PC's.

For instance why is it, that the office version for mac runs far worse on a Mac, than it's counterpart on a PC (see the speed tests in macworl/pc world magazines..)

Perhaps they will sort that out in the next version, as for functionality, don't need more, there is too much already that half of the time I can't find what I am looking for,(both on Windows and mac versions) and perhaps we would be better of if apple would release a pro version of its AppleWorks program suite....

:rolleyes:

simply258
Dec 8, 2003, 03:21 PM
yay now i can't wait for MWSF .. especially for MSN Messenger, which I hope would at last have voice and video .. already got office and vpc, but wouldn't mind the updates ..

JoeRadar
Dec 8, 2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by dr_lha
MS's continued support of Office on the Mac is a bit puzzling as I bet the return on their investment for developing it is tiny compared to the Windows version.
A couple of years ago I read that Microsoft made more profit with each Mac sold than they did with each PC sold.

Depending on how development dollars are assigned, I could see Office for the Mac having a higher profit margin than Office for Windows.

On a Machiavellian note, I can see Office for Mac as a means to keep antitrust lawyers at bay.

SiliconAddict
Dec 8, 2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by k2k koos


For instance why is it, that the office version for mac runs far worse on a Mac, than it's counterpart on a PC (see the speed tests in macworl/pc world magazines..)

:rolleyes:

Probably for the same reason QuickTime is a POS on Windows but is very nice on Mac OS. Or how Media Player for Mac sucks monkey spunk but can amaze a Mac user when itís seen to run at twice the speed on a PC. No company wants to give their competitor an advantage.

JoeRadar
Dec 8, 2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Macrumors
Due to changes in the G5 architecture, prior versions of Virtual PC have remained incompatible with the PowerMac G5s.
During the recent articles regarding MS going with IBM/PowerPC for the next XBox, I read that the next XBox would be able to run the old games through an emulation mode.

Perhaps the VPC is part of that plan.

And as part of the XBox/IBM deal, maybe IBM agreed to make changes to the 970 to make it easier to support VPC.

johnnyjibbs
Dec 8, 2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by ~Shard~
Oh, and one other thing Ė I really hope they change the filename lengths in the next update for Office. Why on Earth did they make 32 chars the max length for a filename in the first place??? Thatís a pain whenever Iím copying over PC files to my Mac.
Yes! My pet hate with Office! There is no reason for this other than to just piss us Mac users off!

jared_kipe
Dec 8, 2003, 03:30 PM
Has everyone forgotten about Appleworks?

ZildjianKX
Dec 8, 2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by jared_kipe
Has everyone forgotten about Appleworks?

What's Appleworks? J/K


Another another note, about damn time I can use Virtual PC on my G5.

arn
Dec 8, 2003, 03:49 PM
story updated with more details

Updated: Mac4ever.com (French) reported on December 1st an interview with a Microsoft representative at MacExpo in London. In their video interview, the rep felt that Virtual PC for G5 would likely be released in February 2004 and Microsoft Office 2003 for Mac would be released in the Summer of 2004.

supertex
Dec 8, 2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by jared_kipe
Has everyone forgotten about Appleworks?

Yes, and rightly so...

I hope this is true, and I hope they bring Entourage to the same level of functionality as Outlook XP or 2003. I have a friend in the market for a laptop, and the only thing holding him back from buying an iBook (which is $700 cheaper than a comparably featured Inspiron) is his allegiance to Outlook as he manages huge contact databases for the student orgs he's involved in.

SlowX
Dec 8, 2003, 03:52 PM
Is it just me, or does this sound funny to you too:

Microsoft Office 2003 for Mac would be released in the Summer of 2004

So in the year 2004, they will release the 2003 version of a product.

Wow... how groundbreaking! (he types sarcatiscally).
Maybe it'll come w/ a free betamax tape and some New Coke!

Yeesh...

ksz
Dec 8, 2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Hawthorne
Hopefully the project management software will be compatible / identical to MS Project. We've got Omnigraffle Pro 3 to work with Visio now, but being left out in the cold right now re: Project sucks.
I would also like to see Project for Mac since I use the PC version quite a bit. However, I think the words Project Manager should really have been Project Gallery. The Project Gallery opens when you launch Office for Mac and is also available from the File menu of any Office app. From the Gallery you can choose a document template, create a new blank document, or open an existing document.

Le Big Mac
Dec 8, 2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by gif32


So why does Microsoft continue to support the Mac? What's in it for them? Certainly the $$ they make selling their software on OS X doesn't account for the money they *could* make if they dropped Mac support so people like me would've had to buy Windows again...

1) To prevent charges of anticompetitive conduct. If it discontinues office, Mac becomes a non-viable platform for many users.

2) To prevent development of a competing office package. If Office for Mac is available, at a reasonable price, how can someone else enter easily? It preserves the monopoly.

bitfactory
Dec 8, 2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Or how Media Player for Mac sucks monkey spunk but can amaze a Mac user when itís seen to run at twice the speed on a PC.

i never - nor do i know any Mac user who has ever - been 'amazed' at Windows Media Player (PC). it is, without a doubt, at the bottom of the Media player food chain (neck and neck with RP).

tny
Dec 8, 2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
I believe he's referring to Mac Office 2004.

I can honestly say that Mac Office student ver. I bought is alot better then Office Xp..can't say much the new Office since I've never used it.

That's because you can honestly say you don't need to use a lot of languages that need Unicode. There is no appreciable Unicode support in Office v.X; there's a LOT in Office 2K/XP/2K3. Hopefully now they'll have it in Office 2K4.X .

gregorypierce
Dec 8, 2003, 04:22 PM
Considering that Microsoft has been rumored to be using Virtual PC as an emulation layer for the XBox2 since it uses a PowerPC architecture, we should expect to see some pretty drastic improvements in VirtualPC emulating the PC platform and DirectX.

Toe
Dec 8, 2003, 04:25 PM
Before giving several hundred more dollars to the can't-program-to-save-their-lives folks at Microsoft, consider these alternatives:

http://openosx.com/office/
http://www.openoffice.org/
http://www.thinkfree.com/
http://marinersoftware.com/siteproduct.php
http://www.besoftware.com/
http://www.apple.com/appleworks/

Most of those cost a whole heck of a lot less than even an upgrade from Microsoft.

And there's still the rumor that Apple will come out with iOffice or whatever. Keynote is a pretty good indication of that.

Why not give hundreds of your hard-earned dollars to Microsoft? Because I 100% guarantee that there will be (to use MS's words) "thousands of bugs" in the first release. That months later, they will fix a few of them, and that many more will never get fixed. And becuase it will cause you infinite pain to try to figure out how to do simple things that seem straightforward. And the help files will be useless, but you're welcome to spend $60 additional on a book that tries to explain it. You could have spent less on one of the above in the first place!

It's just crappy bloatware. Try some alternatives before wasting your money on this junk.

gregorypierce
Dec 8, 2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by jared_kipe
Has everyone forgotten about Appleworks?

I hope so. Appleworks is Apple's little vietnam war. They keep throwing resources at this tired product and it continues to lose ground. Why they don't just openly say they're working with openoffice.org and release a native version of it is beyond me - though likely it has to do with the cold war that exists between Apple and Microsoft over office suites.

BenRoethig
Dec 8, 2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by jared_kipe
Has everyone forgotten about Appleworks?

After trying to use it, yes. When I bought my Performa 5200, Clarisworks was my favorite word processor. Times have changed in the last ten years, Appleworks really hasn't. It's been in need of a overhaul for many years now.

SiliconAddict
Dec 8, 2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by bitfactory
i never - nor do i know any Mac user who has ever - been 'amazed' at Windows Media Player (PC). it is, without a doubt, at the bottom of the Media player food chain (neck and neck with RP).

Then you've never seen MP9....every other version was betaware. I never bothered with MP always loaded WinAMP....that was until MP9. I have amazed a few Mac users at the speed that v9 is running. Itís a dang good player. Heck the RAM usage foot print is smaller then iTunes which is somewhat scary considering MSís propensity for bloatware.

ZildjianKX
Dec 8, 2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Then you've never seen MP9....every other version was betaware. I never bothered with MP always loaded WinAMP....that was until MP9. I have amazed a few Mac users at the speed that v9 is running. Itís a dang good player. Heck the RAM usage foot print is smaller then iTunes which is somewhat scary considering MSís propensity for bloatware.

Agreed. MP is probably near the top of all media players... I'm pro mac and all, but its an insult to compare it to realplayer. I wish MP for mac was 1/2 as good.

SiliconAddict
Dec 8, 2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Toe
Before giving several hundred more dollars to the can't-program-to-save-their-lives folks at Microsoft, consider these alternatives:

<Sarcasm>Thanks but I want to be compatible with the rest of the market.</Sarcasm> Until a viable solution shows up MS office is the product I will continue to use. Like most users in the world I'm not on a holy crusade to rid myself of Microsoft even if that means chopping off our productivity and gouging out our compatibility. (Note: If itís a viable alternative like Mozilla Firebird I will use it. But I wonít make any compromised simply because of a name.) I've tried MANY of the above mentioned office wanna be apps. Can't tell you how many problems I've had with Excel files. More then my fair share of Word documents have had tables get sacked and forget about advanced macros intended to import data from another source. Try doing some Excel file manipulation via Writer. It vomits on them like a drunkard at a tilt-a-whorl. In a word. You can't.


Why not give hundreds of your hard-earned dollars to Microsoft? Because I 100% guarantee that there will be (to use MS's words) "thousands of bugs" in the first release. That months later, they will fix a few of them,


Huh.....Panther 10.3.1.......Panther 10.3.2 within 4-5 months of of release.
Enough said K?

I'm sick of people thinking Apple can do no wrong. BS. No company is perfect. Neither is MS (Understatement.) But dang it Windows 2000 is a fair OS out of the Box. XP is becoming better with each update. (How many updates occurred on Jaguar?) Word 2000, XP and 2003 are good products. Like it or not MS can put a decent piece of software out of their butt when they REALLY try.
I'm sick of this Jihad again Microsoft. Better to stab yourself to death then purchase a Microsoft product. :rolleyes: Or maybe just try it for ONCE. If you've never used a current version of MS office you don't know what the heck you are talking about and thus should shut up.
What was a crappy version of Mac OS? Thought I heard someone say V8 or V7?? Do you think it would be fair of me to base my comments about Mac OS be it version 9 or 10 on a previous version or discount Mac OS because Iím got some

Iím sorry but I go off on comments like this. You donít even contemplate Microsoft because that idea that they are evil is so engrained. Ya they arenít saints but neither is any other company on this planet. Microsoftís big problem is paranoia but thatís another discussion. People act as if the entire company would kick a puppy if given a chance. Iíll tell you where the problem is and its not just Gates:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/bod/
Itís the top echelons of Microsoft where there is a problem. They form and build the corp culture and they are the ones to blame. Calling the programmers at MS idiots, which for all intents and purposes you did, is so far off its ridiculous.
Iíd wager that youíve never used a current MS product, never talked to a person that worked at MS, and have never even been within 200 miles of the campus. A tad bit hypocritical (Dare I use the Z word.) donít you think?!?!

scat999999
Dec 8, 2003, 05:29 PM
Well, at least the G5 will become an option for me. Maybe they will address the Panther/VPC emulation printer problem too.


Originally posted by dracoleb
Microsoft is a software company, it shouldn't matter to them what platform it runs on, as long as they sell the software

greenstork
Dec 8, 2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by k2k koos

For instance why is it, that the office version for mac runs far worse on a Mac, than it's counterpart on a PC (see the speed tests in macworl/pc world magazines..)



You mean like iTunes on a PC?

greenstork
Dec 8, 2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by JoeRadar
A couple of years ago I read that Microsoft made more profit with each Mac sold than they did with each PC sold.

Depending on how development dollars are assigned, I could see Office for the Mac having a higher profit margin than Office for Windows.

On a Machiavellian note, I can see Office for Mac as a means to keep antitrust lawyers at bay.

MS makes a healthy profit on Mac products. How's that you ask? None of their Mac products are OEM. There are no deep volume discounts that the likes of Dell, HP, and Gateway get when buying millions of copies of Office. There's no way MS would yank an office product out of spite or because Apple developed something. They are in business to make money and they will continue to do so by selling Office on a Mac.

fatfish
Dec 8, 2003, 06:05 PM
I would have a guess that if you asked most mac users why they use office, the answer would be cross platform compatability.

I own office but the only time I ever use it is to open an office document sent to me as an email attachment. I'm afraid there is simply no alternative.

But when it comes to creating a document I cannot see why anyone would use word over say appleworks. AW does everything I want 95% of the time and doesn't look like a 747 cockpit. When AW doesn't come up to scratch, I would have to say neither does office, I often revert to indesign to go that little bit further.

I've never really understood why anyone would want to send a completed document in it's native format, there is nothing more unproffesional than receiving a letter attached to an email where you can see all the formatting etc. Have you ever received an invoice produced in office, what an unproffesional piece of crap, they usually look like something an 8 year old with learning difficulties has created.

I say let's educate the world to be a little more elegant in it's presentation of finished documents and coherce the use of pdf's.

Now apart from draft documents that would eliminate the compatability issues and allow people to use apps that were easy to use, then we would see which apps people preferred rather than those they are forced to use.

MrMacMan
Dec 8, 2003, 06:23 PM
"long anticipated G5 compatibility"

Come on... really... They were in the process of getting bought and stuff and you want compatibility... I'm quite sure it wasn't a simple 'throw the code into xCode'

Originally posted by leet1
Probably won't support games just like the current one doesn't, unless they've figured out a way for it to use the graphics card.

Lets hope. Plleeaassee!

Originally posted by ITR 81
Apple will have it's own copy of Office by then. They've been working on Word like processor for awhile now..so it's just matter of time before they release a excel like app and call it xOffice or something like that.
You know what Appleworks needs?


Grammar Check! I don't mean in a few minutes, it should have come nnnooowww! When Clarisworks was out, it should have had it. Arg, it will never be the same.

Originally posted by BenRoethig
Why does MS make Mac products?
1. To make money.
2. If Apple went under, the DOJ would break them up like they did with AT&T
Nah, the Justice Dept didn't push after the last presidental election... I dunno after the Judge ordered them to be broken up on appeal they lost all reasoning... pitiful.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Probably for the same reason QuickTime is a POS on Windows but is very nice on Mac OS. ... No company wants to give their competitor an advantage.
I dunno, QuickTime on windows runs pretty decently.

Originally posted by SlowX
Is it just me, or does this sound funny to you too:



So in the year 2004, they will release the 2003 version of a product.

Wow... how groundbreaking! (he types sarcatiscally).
You understand for something to be sarcastic the person you are telling it to has to know before you tell them right?

Or else its just wit.

Anyway, Appleworks needs an overhall, web broswer, Movie Player, GUI, all overhalled, but not the Word Processor!

Apple basically left it in the state it did at Os 9.

:bleh:

Apple, make a kick ass Word Processor... You can do it.

johnnyjibbs
Dec 8, 2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by MrMacman
You know what Appleworks needs?

Grammar Check! I don't mean in a few minutes, it should have come nnnooowww! When Clarisworks was out, it should have had it. Arg, it will never be the same.

Aggh no! I've always hated the grammer check in Word. And yet it always wants to default to 'on' (green squiggly line that drives you nuts) for every new document and I have to manually turn it off in the preferences every time!

Worse still are the times when the grammer check conflicts with the spell-check and you end up to-ing and fro-ing between green and red squiggly lines! Less automation by default please!

cgc
Dec 8, 2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by leet1
Don't you have to buy or own a microsoft OS with VPC?

You're right, it shouldn't matter. Except for one thing...MICROSOFT IS AN EVIL BORG-LIKE EMPIRE! We will be assimilated!

Westside guy
Dec 8, 2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by leet1
Don't you have to buy or own a microsoft OS with VPC?

No, although you need some x86-based operating system for it to be useful obviously. But you could buy the bare version of VPC and install Red Hat Linux on it if you wanted (I'm not going to try guessing why you might want to do that, but that's another discussion entirely).

Freg3000
Dec 8, 2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Aggh no! I've always hated the grammer check in Word. And yet it always wants to default to 'on' (green squiggly line that drives you nuts) for every new document and I have to manually turn it off in the preferences every time!

Worse still are the times when the grammer check conflicts with the spell-check and you end up to-ing and fro-ing between green and red squiggly lines! Less automation by default please!

Apple should just make Appleworks Cocoa and then it would have spell check in there by default. Check out Text Edit or even Safari under the Edit menu if you don't know what I am talking about.

I think that type of implementation wouldn't bother you. And it stays off.

jared_kipe
Dec 8, 2003, 07:36 PM
That was my point, Appleworks is so unfinished I don't know why it is still around in it's present form. sure it needs an overhaul. What is keeping Apple from overhauling appleworks and releasing it as this iOffice thing? Nothing really.

What is the big deal with compatablity? How hard could it seriously be to make something open a document? For the most part we are talking about text, come on, we can't decode plain text or formatted text in this day and age? There will come a time when Safari opens .doc and .xml files.

Oh, PS, is there any software for mac that is simmilar to Access?

ChrisH3677
Dec 8, 2003, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by dr_lha
Which is of course why they sell a Linux version of Office. MS's continued support of Office on the Mac is a bit puzzling as I bet the return on their investment for developing it is tiny compared to the Windows version.


I actually think Steve and Bill are buddies. They come from the same era and have a shared past. eg Apple gave Bill a huge headstart in GUI wordprocessing by letting them onto the Mac in the 80's and then Bill invested in Apple in the 90's when they really needed it

In the corporate world, Linux is not and never will be a serious threat to Windows on the desktop. If it could then Apple would already have. The problem is compatibility. Corporates use a slew of apps that are Windows only.

Developing a Linux version would not have enough return either but add to that that Linus doesn't have a shared past with Bill and that Linux has made inroads into Windows server market and you won't see Bill doing Linux any favours.

With it's unix core tho, Apple should have also made some serious impact in the server market. But it can still happen and maybe then Bill will get less accommodating.

JoeMacDaddy
Dec 8, 2003, 07:48 PM
I am gravely concerned over the next release of MS Office for Macintosh. The Office 2003 for Windows gives very little new functionality but delivers a lot of DRM. Microsoft wants its hooks into every document, spreadsheet, database and e-mail message. They have developed Windows 2003 Server DRM management for companies to enforce DRM on everything. I am not against companies protecting the proprietary or copyrighted material. I am against giving away my personal rights under the US Constitution to Microsoft in their EULA.:confused:

Cooknn
Dec 8, 2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by nspeds
Most people go for Office because of the name, usually when people think of a word processor they think of Word.

I remember Comdex in the fall of '93 when I was looking at NexTStep the word processor we were excited about was Wordperfect. I've watched Apple ever since then with admiration - I finally have my first Mac (G5 Dual 2) and the word processor of choice is definitely MS Word today. If anyone wants to compete they will need to be able to create Rich Text Format doc's IMHO, so that anyone with Word will be able to work with them seamlessly.

Toe
Dec 8, 2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Iíd wager that youíve never used a current MS product, never talked to a person that worked at MS, and have never even been within 200 miles of the campus. Actually I use Office X every day and support it in my office. I can't stand it, and am trying to encourage people to try other options. If we can get some weight behind something else, maybe there will be a viable alternative.

But don't suggest that Office X is a worthwhile product. I am torn between giving my staff compatibility and punishing them with this lousy software. Microsoft products account for the vast majority of trouble tickets we deal with. More importantly, their bloatware confuses my users. Word 5 had a nice feature set. Most features beyond that are junk to confuse the uninitiated. I'd give them all away for a decent WordPerfect converter. How is it that Microsoft can suggest that they can't make a WordPerfect converter for Mac?

And I wasn't kidding about the bugs. Look at Microsoft's technical documents. They literally say that they fix thousands of bugs in their paid releases, implying that they sold you software with thousands of bugs in it (which IS clearly evident) and now want you to pay for the fix. Apple ain't perfect, but their bugs are not so vast in quantity, and they publish updates pretty regularly (especially compared to Microsoft's multi-year integer update cycle).

ryme4reson
Dec 8, 2003, 08:46 PM
Everyone thinks Office v.X is such a decent program. I must admit, I use Word to type papers, and ppt for simple presentations. Besides that, not much else.

For the first time last night I decided to try its compatibility. I logged onto my network at work, and opened our timesheets. Across the top are the two week dates. Cell 1 has the Sunday date, then cell 2 has (cell1)+1 etc. It opens fine on Windows computers, but it gives me ### #### on my Office v.X

I wish I could say my mac is compatible, and I can get bye with no windows, but thats not the case. Finally, will thinkfree or OO, have any better luck opening this simple excel file?

TomSmithMacEd
Dec 8, 2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by DamnDJ
I think it would be great if Jobs lets Microsoft do a presentation on stage for Office 2004, and once the manager for Microsoft MBU walks off stage, Job's then goes on to introduce Apple's "Office" package.

"You've seen the good product Microsoft is going to deliver. Now see our insanely great product!"

He he, that would be one of the greatest moments in history, as long as the new mac software was good.

Cooknn
Dec 8, 2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Toe
Microsoft products account for the vast majority of trouble tickets we deal with. More importantly, their bloatware confuses my users. Word 5 had a nice feature set. Most features beyond that are junk to confuse the uninitiated. I'd give them all away for a decent WordPerfect converter. How is it that Microsoft can suggest that they can't make a WordPerfect converter for Mac?
Have you seen what the end user has to go through to do a mail merge in Office XP/2003? Crazyness :eek: IT gets called to handle these processes, which *should* be simple enough for anyone to do...

ITR 81
Dec 8, 2003, 09:09 PM
WordPerfect to me was the best word processor out there. It just worked the way you wanted it too. Word is only popular due to Windows..and it sucks compared to WordPerfect. I only use Excel and Word because most businesses use them. I have no real use for Powerpoint because I like Keynotes over it any old day and most MacAddict agrees with me on that.

I hope Apple copies WordPerfect and just makes it compatible with Word doc.

When I was on Windows I used WordPerfect 8-9-10 only and bootleg copy of Office for some excel files I had use for business.

alfonsog
Dec 8, 2003, 09:31 PM
I just don't get word processors and why they are now so complicated. I used to use WordStar 1.0 on an old cp/m machine with a daisy wheel printer for high school research papers and it was fine (in 1990.) There's no reason to complicate things so much.

Toe
Dec 8, 2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by alfonsog
I just don't get word processors and why they are now so complicated. I used to use WordStar 1.0 on an old cp/m machine with a daisy wheel printer for high school research papers and it was fine (in 1990.) There's no reason to complicate things so much. I'd suggest that the reason they have to be complicated is because that's the only way Microsoft can get companies to keep paying hundreds of dollars for... something they already have.

Most people upgrade only for compatibility... often only for compatibility with their own new OS, as many feel inclined to do with OS X.

hayesk
Dec 8, 2003, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by ChrisH3677
Bill invested in Apple in the 90's when they really needed it

I hope you don't mean "needed it" financially. Apple had billions in the bank. MS's little $150million investment was a drop in the bucket. That was a PR stunt. Nothing more.

hayesk
Dec 8, 2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
<Sarcasm>Thanks but I want to be compatible with the rest of the market.</Sarcasm>

Uhm... that isn't sarcasm. Maybe fecetiousness, but not sarcasm - unless you really don't want to be compatible.

Until a viable solution shows up MS office is the product I will continue to use. Like most users in the world I'm not on a holy crusade to rid myself of Microsoft even if that means chopping off our productivity and gouging out our compatibility.

Maybe not, but you do realize MS is on a holy crusade to rid the world of any and all competition. Not everyone's needs are the same as yours. In fact, most people don't even use 5% of Office's features. Other people can get by perfectly well with AppleWorks (I do). Some people here are criticizing AppleWorks just because it is old - I don't see you defending AppleWorks for such a silly reason to criticize.

Huh.....Panther 10.3.1.......Panther 10.3.2 within 4-5 months of of release.
Enough said K?

Are you actually comparing the few bugs to the tens of thousands of Office bugs?

I'm sick of people thinking Apple can do no wrong. BS.

Come on now - Apple's biggest critics are often their own customers.

No company is perfect. Neither is MS (Understatement.) But dang it Windows 2000 is a fair OS out of the Box. XP is becoming better with each update.

Let me know when it gets to "good". MS still has shown that they don't understand user interfaces. They just keep plopping down UI elements haphazardly with no cohesion or consistency at all. Windows is a pain to use when I am forced to do it at work every day. I see so many things that could have been done better that it's not funny. I really should make a list.

(How many updates occurred on Jaguar?) Word 2000, XP and 2003 are good products.

Is that why Word 2K and XP crashed on me 8 times in a few hours while trying to edit a 700 page document? Word can't cut it. Word is an ok product - not good. Why does Word make up styles when pasting text from another doc? I explicitly set it to use existing styles, but apparently Word thinks it knows better. Why does Word insist on selecting the space after a word when I select it? I have "smart" cut and paste turned off. Again, this is an example of MS not doing interface testing.

Like it or not MS can put a decent piece of software out of their butt when they REALLY try.

Maybe "decent". Not good. Excel is their best product, IMHO. It still has room for improvement.

I'm sick of this Jihad again Microsoft. Better to stab yourself to death then purchase a Microsoft product. :rolleyes: Or maybe just try it for ONCE. If you've never used a current version of MS office you don't know what the heck you are talking about and thus should shut up.
What was a crappy version of Mac OS?

Word 5.1 was a great word processor. MS went down hill from there. Jihad against MS? You don't seem to understand the MS is out to control everything in the computer industry, and then the media industry. If you want to talk about Jihads, talk about MS. They were convicted of antitrust actions. Remember? Their settlements were nothing more than slaps on the wrists, but they were still guilty. Why should I support a corporation that commits such felonies?

You donít even contemplate Microsoft because that idea that they are evil is so engrained.

Hmmm... I wonder where people get that idea?

Iíd wager that youíve never used a current MS product,

Every day.

never talked to a person that worked at MS,

I had a Business Ethics professor who used to work at MS. She quit her job there because she was appalled at the practices they had there.

sushi
Dec 8, 2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by fatfish
But when it comes to creating a document I cannot see why anyone would use word over say appleworks. AW does everything I want 95% of the time and doesn't look like a 747 cockpit.
Heck, I still use FullWrite Professional as my primary word processor.

Works in 9 and in X under Classic mode.

The program is huge (comes on four floppies -- two of which are the Dictionary and Thesarus). Full featured, fast and a pleasure to use. Menu driven as well which is nice.

Unfortunately, the latest version was done in 1996. So it doesn't not support the current Word formats.

At work, I use Word. So at home I have Office 98 and Office X installed so I can use the same application in both locations.

But if I have an option, I will use FW before Word.

Sushi

fazel
Dec 8, 2003, 10:37 PM
My belief is that apple has their own office sweet up and running. Much of what people have said regarding compadibility issues are probably true. If apple is going to make an office sweet that is going to compete with office, it needs to work flawlessly. I think that there has got to be some stuff going on behind the scenes. People have said that Microsoft keeps office for apple because they are afraid of being broken up by the government. I think what really scares microsoft is the possibility of apple becoming a compeditor (i.e. releasing their own sweet of software for pc's). People have also said that apple has osX running on pc's. That's the real fear=that apple will release osX (and all the software that apple also has for osX) for pc's. That would raise apple's market share (and lower ms's). Just my two cents. By the way, I've been reading these forums for a long time, but this is my first post.

Gyroscope
Dec 8, 2003, 11:00 PM
Good news. It's somehow symbolic enough, that on 20th anniversary Microsoft presents new version of Office for Mac given that Microsoft Office has actually debuted on original Mac 20 years ago.

~Shard~
Dec 8, 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by SlowX
Wow... how groundbreaking! (he types sarcatiscally).
Maybe it'll come w/ a free betamax tape and some New Coke!

New Coke? I was hoping for some Crystal Pepsi! (Or am I the only here who remembers that?)

QFace
Dec 8, 2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
WordPerfect to me was the best word processor out there. It just worked the way you wanted it too. Word is only popular due to Windows..and it sucks compared to WordPerfect. I only use Excel and Word because most businesses use them. I have no real use for Powerpoint because I like Keynotes over it any old day and most MacAddict agrees with me on that.

I hope Apple copies WordPerfect and just makes it compatible with Word doc.

When I was on Windows I used WordPerfect 8-9-10 only and bootleg copy of Office for some excel files I had use for business.

I think many people enjoy and love the features of Microsoft Word (I definetely do). Sure, Word is complicated, but once you configure Word and figure it out, Word can be amazing. There are times when Word gets in the way, but most of the time it does what you want, and reduces the amount as well as improves ones work.

zamyatin
Dec 8, 2003, 11:57 PM
I'm sure everyone here knows that you can do 90% of your word processing in humble little TextEdit! And the Panther version can read (and write?) .doc format files! I almost never use anything else, and haven't for a long time. RTF is my standard format.

At the same time, I'm working with the OpenOffice team and eagerly awaiting a fully Aqua version of OpenOffice. OOo has between 6% and 10% marketshare, and is the only office suite to run on all major computing platforms. It, and its file formats, are clearly the future.

Remember to keep up with www.neooffice.org to see what our friends are up to with the OSX OOo port!

zamyatin
Dec 9, 2003, 12:01 AM
And furthermore, Appleworks could bloom if given just a little attention! It did everything I needed for years, and at this point the only additional feature I would ask of it is that it adopt the OpenOffice file formats as its default!

Shared, open file formats are the key to free data and renewed competition in the office suite market!

zelet
Dec 9, 2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by ryme4reson
For the first time last night I decided to try its compatibility. I logged onto my network at work, and opened our timesheets. Across the top are the two week dates. Cell 1 has the Sunday date, then cell 2 has (cell1)+1 etc. It opens fine on Windows computers, but it gives me ### #### on my Office v.X

I wish I could say my mac is compatible, and I can get bye with no windows, but thats not the case. Finally, will thinkfree or OO, have any better luck opening this simple excel file?

You are joking right? The # signs mean that the cell isn't big enough to show the numbers. You have to expand the cell and it will work fine.

Trimix
Dec 9, 2003, 01:01 AM
It is important that MS continue to support the Mac. I am looking forward to the upgrade. Hope they do an IE upgrade too, as Safari has problems with so many pages on the www.

docpsycho
Dec 9, 2003, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by gif32

So why does Microsoft continue to support the Mac? What's in it for them? Certainly the $$ they make selling their software on OS X doesn't account for the money they *could* make if they dropped Mac support so people like me would've had to buy Windows again...

Lemme see here.... at Best buy the going price for Xp PRO is $300
yet VPC ver 6 is $250.... wow they sell it for $50 less and the throw in the emulator to boot....... Looks like the Mac people get the better deal again!!!!!!

dekator
Dec 9, 2003, 02:25 AM
I'd be happy if M$ Office would finally incorporate true Unicode abilities, not MacWrite. It's behind the times there and it's pretty useless for any serious multilingual work (unless you use clumsy OS 9 ways, which are far from perfect or complete).

rdowns
Dec 9, 2003, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by fazel
My belief is that apple has their own office sweet up and running.

iLollipop?

johnnyjibbs
Dec 9, 2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Trimix
It is important that MS continue to support the Mac. I am looking forward to the upgrade. Hope they do an IE upgrade too, as Safari has problems with so many pages on the www.
I'm afriad that's your lot with IE for Mac. Safari is the future. The Panther version has fixed my Jaguar compatibility issues at least. You've got Safari to thank for Microsoft dropping IE support - there's no profit in it for them. Office is another story entirely.

HasanDaddy
Dec 9, 2003, 06:02 AM
I gotta say this -

I hate M$ --- but Office X is an EXCELLENT software package!

Word X and Excel X have their problems --- but overall, they are very good and they are actually MUCH better than their PC versions

I don't know how M$ swung it, but the best software they've ever written has been on a Mac

PowerPoint X is useless now because of Keynote (which is an AWESOME app)

so my point is this ---

M$ is obviously investing a lot of capital and time into Office X --- its hard for me to believe that they aren't, when the product is soooo good

in that way --- I agree with many here --- Apple is probably working on an Office package, but they're making sure that its AMAZING, as the competition is VERY good

This was different with Final Cut Pro and Adobe Premiere, as Premiere simply wasn't as good as FCP and wasn't going to get any better

Keynote is a great app..... and its MUCH better than Powerpoint --- easier to use, and nicer looking

DVD Studio Pro didn't even have competition

ditto for iPhoto

and the little apps like Mail, Address Book, iCal, etc, are all top notch

notice that Apple hasn't entered the photo-editing software race, as Photoshop seems too tough?

So in that way ---- I think we'll see an Apple office program soon.... but Apple isn't going to enter a race that its not going to WIN, right off the bat!

HasanDaddy
Dec 9, 2003, 06:05 AM
and btw ---

maybe some would disagree with me, but I'm heavily impressed with Keynote

I'm even more impressed when i compare it with what PowerPoint offers, and then I can even appreciate more the vision that Apple has taken towards this application

in that way, I think Apple must have some really good ideas for new programs that could compete against Word and Excel

hopefully, we'll see this soon in full bloom!

GroundLoop
Dec 9, 2003, 06:06 AM
Below is an email exchange that I have had with our software license manager. Just to let you know, we are able to purchase MS Office at my company for $19.99 but it is only for PCs. This is what they said when I asked about Office X:


From: Hickman, Brian A
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:48 AM
To: Judy
Subject: Microsoft Home Use Program

Just out of curiosity, why are we unable to purchase Office X (for Mac OS X) through this program? Not all of us use PCs at home.



Brian Hickman
Senior Member of Engineering Staff
Command & Control Systems Engineering


-----Original Message-----
From: Judy
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:00 AM
To: Hickman, Brian A
Subject: RE: Microsoft Home Use Program



I don't have an answer for you. I know that in Moorestown, we support a PC user base more so than a Mac.



License Management Team moved to building 104-032.

Judy


-----Original Message-----
From: Hickman, Brian A
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:01 AM
To: Judy
Subject: RE: Microsoft Home Use Program

Could you point me to someone that may be able to answer the question?

Brian


-----Original Message-----
From: ----------
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:08 AM
To: Hickman, Brian A
Cc: -------------
Subject: RE: Microsoft Home Use Program



Jeff



I have a user that was wondering why the Microsoft Office offer did not include Mac's. Do you know why or can you obtain an answer from whomever might know?



License Management Team moved to building 104-032.

Judy





Microsoft is in the process of withdrawing from the Mac software market. Bard Edwards has told Microsoft that we have a number of users interested in purchasing the Mac version of Office, but at this point, the MS answer is ĎWe have no plans to offer Macintosh software under the MS Home Use Programí.



-Jeff


I am assuming that they are reading into the statement about not offering it under the program as meaning they will not be supporting Office on Mac. But it was interesting nonetheless.

Hickman

johnnyjibbs
Dec 9, 2003, 06:19 AM
Apple still has to be careful if it is to create an office suite. Even though Office X is a nice little earner for MS (unlike IE for Mac), they wouldn't want MS to drop Mac support, even if it was just for image reasons. It's like we won't see an Apple Photoshop killer. That is exactly how to drive Adobe into dropping Mac support!

Also, bare in mind that Keynote is substantially cheaper than Word, Excel or Powerpoint are on their own. So the Apple office suite would be cheaper than MS Office (and would have to be if people choose that over ultimate compatibility).

QuiteSure
Dec 9, 2003, 06:20 AM
Apple's not coming out with an Office product. Makes no sense because Apple can't really do it obviously better than MS.

Apple produced Keynote because Powerpoint wasn't making use of the Quartz Extreme capabilities of OSX. You can't say the same thing about either Word or Excel; people don't buy them because of graphic output, they buy them as business productivity tools. I don't see how Apple can distinquish itself as a vendor by producing clearly superior word processing or spreadsheet products.

Keynote theoretically helps sell Macs because it shows off Apple's graphics superiority; but a new mac office product will not help sell macs because most buyers, correctly I believe, perceive Word and Excel as being high quality products.

In fact, development of a Word and Excel competitor will probably in the long run chill the sale of Macs because MS will pull out of future Office development, just as it has with future IE development.

On the other hand, this new announcement is an excellent sign. Continued Office development for the Mac will spur hardware sales because it appears that MS believes that the Mac is a viable platform, and that will translate to further customer confidence in the Apple brand.

Finally, development of Appleworks does not really contribute to hardware sales. Appleworks is a necessary product for consumers who purchase iMacs, eMacs and iBooks for the iLife products and don't really want (or need) to invest in a productivity upgrade. Appleworks is just fine for these buyers as is. Apple won't sell more computers to potential buyers by hawking advanced built-in word processing and productivity tools. That's not their marketing "sweet spot."

ZipZilla
Dec 9, 2003, 06:29 AM
Great post....

Continued development of Office for OS X is great news for OS X and the platform in general.

johnnyjibbs
Dec 9, 2003, 06:30 AM
I am basing the Apple office on recent rumours. There is no evidence that they will make an office suite (especially as it's a massive task, more than anything else) but it is still something that they may do in the future. The release of Keynote has the effect of sparking office rumours as it is a direct rival to PowerPoint.

PowerPoint is not that bad - it still makes use of a number of QuickTime and Mac OS X abilities that the PC version does not have, and for this reason I think it is superior to the Windows version.

The absense of any decent update to AppleWorks has also added fuel to the rumours as it is expected that this means it is due for a massive overhaul. Apple probably wants to reduce its reliance on Microsoft on the Mac platform, as and office suite is something that most people who buy a computer need.

Squire
Dec 9, 2003, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Apple will have it's own copy of Office by then. They've been working on Word like processor for awhile now..so it's just matter of time before they release a excel like app and call it xOffice or something like that.

Wasn't the word processing app reportedly called Document? I've been holding off buying Office X for that reason.

Squire

ZipZilla
Dec 9, 2003, 06:47 AM
I don't think even Apple could provide people what they ultimately need in an Office suite: 100% perfect, flawless compatibility with Office for Windows.

There's no such thing as being "good enough" or "close enough" in an enterprise situation where you need the file to open perfectly, every time. I think as long as MS is doing a decent job with Office, the only Apple word processors you'll see updated are Appleworks and TextEdit (which in Panther, by the way, has nice basic Word doc support.)

DarkPhoenixCA
Dec 9, 2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by nspeds
Most people go for Office because of the name, usually when people think of a word processor they think of Word.

Its like Coke or Pepsi.

Hopefully the new entourage will be similar to the current Outlook 2003. I beta tested 2003 and it is so awesome.

MS better not implement activation.

My boyfriend uses Outlook 2003. When he raves to me abut some of the new features, my response is usually "That's already in Entourage" (except for a few features).

First, Microsoft is probably updating Entourage drastically the same reason they did to Outlook 2003: MS knows there are Mac users in most organizations, and for those with the Exchange server backend, they want to have a cleitn that work as well with Exchange as possible. And, they probably know a good majority of Mac users use Entourage as their primary e-mail app. Microsoft's Office division wants to keep that desktop dominance.

I'm not slamming people here, but those who say they want an Apple office suite or OpenOffice are missing a big point: a proprietary suite for the Mac will only serve to marginalize the Mac OS platform even more. Apple knows this, and may compete with Microsoft on a couple of applications (Safari, Keynote) - but no way will they risk shrinking its user base. Keynote is a nice app, if you do Mac only presentations - but I stick to PowerPoint (as I suspect 90% of Mac users wil) because they need to interact with the 90% of people who use Windows. Plain as that.

If you want to use OpenOffice to be defiant, go ahead. I hope whoever you are, you don't have to work with Windows users. For the rest of us Mac pragmatists, I think we'll continue to use Office because we live in the real world and recognize the necessity. AND...we'll continue to bitch and moan about Office the SAME way PC users do.

I work in a large government as an IT manager. I am the only one in my department using a Mac, and I have to interact with my clients in the 60+ other departments. And I know I'm not an atypical corporate Mac user. We need Office to get the job done. When I do presentations, I need to use PowerPoint; when we are doing our fiscal year budget I need Excel; and when I read reports, RFPs, statements of work, etc. I need Word. Office was a KEY decision for me - and others, I'll bet - to switch.

Cooknn
Dec 9, 2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by DarkPhoenixCA
Office was a KEY decision for me - and others, I'll bet - to switch. Yep. Was key for me.

ZipZilla
Dec 9, 2003, 09:02 AM
Good points...

Also, I think Office sells Macs...particularly switchers, who need that compatibility.

QuiteSure
Dec 9, 2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by ZipZilla
Good points...

Also, I think Office sells Macs...particularly switchers, who need that compatibility.

AND that vote of confidence from MS.

Trimix
Dec 9, 2003, 10:21 AM
Am I the only one who thinks this is funny ???

"Microsoft Office 2003" for Mac would be released in the Summer of 2004.

nexus810
Dec 9, 2003, 11:23 AM
i think they are talkinga bout the equivalent of Office 2003

pimentoLoaf
Jan 3, 2004, 04:46 PM
Any chance that MS will let me upgrade to the FULL office from only Entourage?

I bought E to replace the minimalist Mail and combine it with my PDA activities, but whilst working with the officeDemo thought it would be nice to have the complete package -- only there is no discounted way of doing so.

ZildjianKX
Jan 6, 2004, 02:18 PM
No virtual PC... screwed again.

At least office looks nice.

Toe
Jan 6, 2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
No virtual PC... screwed again.

At least office looks nice. This says they did:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/01/06/microsoft/

As for Office looking nice... it looks like bloatware to me... though I didn't think it could get any more bloated.

Any word on http://koffice.org/ being ported to OS X?

MacsRgr8
Jan 6, 2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
No virtual PC... screwed again.

At least office looks nice.

I surely was hoping for a Demo of Virtual PC comaptible with a G5....

Office looks OK, not too different from the v. X one we know, IMHO.

wdlove
Jan 6, 2004, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by MacsRgr8
I surely was hoping for a Demo of Virtual PC comaptible with a G5....

Office looks OK, not too different from the v. X one we know, IMHO.

I was suprised that they didn't mention Virtual PC also.

I was very impressed by Office 2004. Had forgot that Word was 1st introduced for the Mac in 1984, but in actuality I purchased that product it was in a black box. The thing that impressed me the most was Notes with audio that will be awesome for taking notes in a lecture, I always end up missing something.

thatoneguy
Jan 6, 2004, 07:10 PM
For those of you who maybe wondering if Microsoft is coming out with Virtual PC 7 as speculated over the past several weeks, well your wish has been granted. I'm not sure if Macworld discussed the new VPC 7.0 (since my connection was awful thanks to the ample amount of bandwidth by Apple (sarcastic)) but the following link is the official post from Microsoft's PressPass Page.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/Jan04/01-06Office2004IntentPR.asp

And yes, it does support the new G5 processors.
-Krikor :D