How to "strap" 5 or 6 G5's together?

[MaxMacHac]

I evidently posted this question in the wrong forum before... if this is the case here, please let me know where would be an appropriate forum. TIA.

I am interested in "strapping" say... 5 or 6 dual G5's (not a hard number... if it takes 5, 10 or 20 that's what it takes.) together to form a "mini-supercomputer." This will be for a recording studio operation.

Here's the concept... By having multiple processing, timing can be achieved to allow signal paths which will be able to leave the digital realm and be processed though analog gear and back into the digital realm and finally back out to the analog world for final composition.

I have about 8 months to research and purchase everything... which ain't all that much time... Sooooo, does anyone have any ideas as to developers to consult with?

Thanx for your time.

Max

[thehuncamunca]

wow wouldn't think it would take 20 dual G5's to do a little audio recording

[MacAztec]

Wait until MWSF, I believe XServe G5s will be released. It will make your task a lot easier.

[Sun Baked]

Don't know where the extra resources are for in the clustering solutions, with the Servers and/or the Server OS.

Apple Clustering Resources (http://www.apple.com/server/resources/clustering_resources.html#a)

[Spock]

Originally posted by MaxMacHac

I am interested in "strapping" say... 5 or 6 dual G5's (not a hard number... if it takes 5, 10 or 20 that's what it takes.)



This is simple go to Your local Hardware store and buy some straps and strap Your G5's together and Boom You are all set

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by Spock
This is simple go to Your local Hardware store and buy some straps and strap Your G5's together and Boom You are all set Rent some of the old Red Green shows, he can do anything with duct tape. ;)

Duct Tape Virtuoso Deluxe (http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/releaseinfo.cfm?ReleaseID=1035)

[benixau]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Rent some of the old Red Green shows, he can do anything with duct tape. ;)

Duct Tape Virtuoso Deluxe (http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/releaseinfo.cfm?ReleaseID=1035)

Don't use duct tape - use scotch tape or something - duct tape has a monopoly in the market and is trying to bully all of its competitors out of its space (including masking tape)

[krimson]

i dont think you'd gain as much of the "mini-supercomputer" effect in the way that I think you're going to string them together.. all you would really need is to have one station act as the primary (time-master), and have the rest act as secondary's using the timing provided by the master... that way you could have your secondary's store samples, control your devices, etc..

[edesignuk]

I think the word you're looking for is "cluster", not "strapping" ;)
Go and take a look around the Virgina Tech (http://computing.vt.edu/research_computing/terascale/) website/forums, they have done what you want to do (all be it on a larger scale) but the principles will be the same.

[MaxMacHac]

I tried "duck" tape on my G3 and a coupla dual g4's and the tape wouldn't quite hold... darn feathers... I thought about those straps like they use on the air conditioner duck-work... I dunno...

The Virgina Tech site is what prompted my idea. I was wondering if a cluster arrangement would suffice for the core processing, but then have a couple other boxes available as "real-time" processing for D/A and a couple more for A/D back in... i.e. insert points. With the core cluster handling all of the timing... then utilizing the core to handle the final D/A conversion down to say 32 final automated tracks for summing to the 2buss... thus a "modified" cluster? or a cluster with "thingys" and "hangers"??? awww shucks, I'd just call em' $^%&^ strap-on's... maybe... maybe I don't go there.:D

The real issue is whether the OS can handle all of the timing... which I don't see the OS as the bottleneck for implementation as much as finding code warriors to do the hack.

In regards to the comment about a little audio... 64 to 128 tracks including analog insert points... yeah, just a little-bit of audio... then synching it to images and video... cool stuff.

I checked out the http://www.daugerresearch.com/ and http://www.platform.com/products/virtualization/ sites. Anyone here at all familiar with either of these folks? Is this the right direction? hmmmmm...

Stay tuned for further details....

[Engagebot]

A cluster is not really meant to do what you're trying to do. A cluster is best for batch type processing. you have to have software specifically made to distribute tasks between the machines.

If you want to build a cluster using MPICH, i can help you there. I dont know if theres software available to do what you're thinking though.

[Spock]

Originally posted by benixau
Don't use duct tape - use scotch tape or something - duct tape has a monopoly in the market and is trying to bully all of its competitors out of its space (including masking tape)

Sounds like a software company I have heard of.

[manitoubalck]

Here's an Idea, buy 3 or 4, AMD Opteron 4-way servers, they exist and will **** all over a cluster of G5's, + you dont need to waist money several graphics cards.
If your after a mac solution however a G5 server may be released sometime next year, but don't hold your breath.
Also Fiber channel cards are really expencive $1000AUD.

[PixelFactory]

check out Digidesign (http://www.digidesign.com) and look at the ProTools HD Sysytems. Thier top of the line system supports 196 tracks and 96 simultanious analog import tracks. This should be more than enough for what you need and a lot easier to setup than clustering multiple macs. Also, I do not think there is an audio application that supports clustering.

[railthinner]

Maybe you're doing something I'm not comprehending but without you being A LOT more specific about exactly what it is you're trying to perform I'm going to take a stab at this and say you're way over complicating this dillema. Krimson is probably on the right track.

Through the magic of SMPTE and/or MIDI timecode you can probably sync any number of machines to share the burden of your enormous audio/video project. As for the analog ins and outs latency will be an issue when you start piling on the inserts no matter how many processors you have in your machine -- you're not going to increase your bandwidth before and after the processor. Start of with one computer as a test (using for example a MOTU firewire interface or multiple interfaces) and see how many signals you can input, process and output. You can also look at something like tc electronics powercore to help with effects processing.

Anyway I'm not being very succinct but you could use multiple machines synced together via SMPTE for different tasks and maximum i/o.

Look here:
http://www.tcelectronic.com/PowerCore
and here:
http://www.motu.com
midi and audio interfaces

[aldo]

Originally posted by manitoubalck
Here's an Idea, buy 3 or 4, AMD Opteron 4-way servers, they exist and will siht all over a cluster of G5's, + you dont need to waist money several graphics cards.
If your after a mac solution however a G5 server may be released sometime next year, but don't hold your breath.
Also Fiber channel cards are really expencive $1000AUD.

As much as I am a mac fanboy, I've gotta agree here. Personally I see Apple making no inroads at all into the server market apart from strictly all Mac workplaces. Anyway, thats off topic ;).

What you need to do is get a few AMD Opertron CPUs, a nice mobo and get yourself a copy of some flavour of Linux.

I doubt you will really need more than 2 CPUs, and dual opertron mobos are realtivley cheap compared to Intel Xeon etc.

What I suggest you do is give that a go, and see what happens - if you need more CPUs, start look into clusturing. Clustering on linux is probably the best of all OSes, and Red Hat can provide you with a nice GUI to guide you through it for a few $$$.

However, I'm confused as what you want to do. If you want to just render your audio and video, this setup will work v. well as long as their is a linux server available, otherwise, you will have to use a different solution.

If you are wanting to do some sort of analog clustering in sync, i'd really forget it. It will be very, very, very hard to keep it in sync and if it falls out you will spend the rest of your life diagnoising tonnes of problems.

[shake]

have you ever heard of pro tools? you should really look into proTools HD systems (as a previous post said). getting a "cluster" of macs to process audio in real-time is probably impossible.

ProTools HD systems are pretty expensive, but building a "cluster" of macs for a recording studio is probably more expensive. and pro tools will work.

if you need any more information on digital audio recording, or using macs in a recording studio environment, drop me an email. I am a professional audio engineer who has been using pro tools for 10 years....

hope this helps...
shake
dave@mountaindogmusic.ca

[MaxMacHac]

... and now for something COMPLETELY different...

Yup, already know about PT HD... looking at 96 tracks... the worksurface issue sux. Also looking at Nuendo, a couple of DMX-R100's and 4 RADAR Nyquists. Also in the running is a Studer 950... or the "new" 950 by the spin-off from Studer... ooops, is that OK to mention?!? I have a hard time with the co$t of AMEK and SSL... plus there's the i$$ue of digital storage.

The real problem is that the whole recording industry is based upon non-standard standardization...

midi, as wonderful as it is, has SERIOUS limitations when trying to run say 16 Appogee's going out from a digital console such as the R100's digital insert points... and forget about the propogation delays and synching another 16 Appogee's coming back in on the HD system... now there's the DSP jitter that will need to be going on when the Nuendo is feeding to/from HD and/or the RADAR's. AES works, but even MADI is limited to 24 tracks at a whack.

With all of the "better" (read pro-level) software and hardware supporting Mac, it just makes sense to me to look at a total Mac solution to manage and tie all of these different systems together into a coherent homogenous workflow.

In a sense I'm looking to hybrid most of the major digital platforms/formats into a fully sync'd bidirectional system, capable of real-time DSP of high quality analog AND digital gear. e.g. a big honkin' digital processing patchbay from h&!!

Currently I have real issues with much more than 28 tracks of simultanious tracking with my 2408 and 24i on my G3 B&W with 1Gb RAM. (I know... it's only 300MHz and would see a significant increase with a faster CPU. That's part of why I'm here!) I've managed to build 64 tracks with processing and 128 tracks with no processing... but man is it a drain on the brain.

When I think of tying in all of these formats and then getting them to sync to NTSC or HDTV for video/film/foley/post?... Arrrrrrrrrrrgh!?!?!? There's gotta be a better way than having 16 completely different systems that don't talk to each other and jumping through 64 hoops to bounce stuff back and forth.

Glad to know there IS an audio contegency here!

Max

[legion]

You're making this way too complicated. Everything you're looking to do is an everyday occurence in all the audio post studios here in LA. Your demands (as written) aren't even on the high side. I suggest you call one of the major proaudio equipment dealers and ask to have a sales rep outline a solution for you. It'd take no more than a few hours to outline exactly what you need. Just make up a list of your current equipment you have that you _want_ to tie into this system (don't list all the stuff that's useless) and fax/email it to the sales rep.

(First step, your current system is woefully out of date for current software... so chuck that. The 2408 could come in handy, but I'd even put that in a closet as backup.)

For PT, ProController 2 is due at Winter NAMM. I've seen the prototype and it's cool.

I also think you need to figure out _what you want_. Sit down and outline what steps you want to process in analogue and which in digital. Also examine what kind of resolutions you are looking for.

Also, are you doing Audio and Video? If you're not doing Video, it'll be more important to speak to who will be supplying the source material and that'll determine your needs. To work with HDTV, you don't need a specific HDTV setup-- you don't work with uncompressed HDTV to do audio work, just a compressed frame accurate QT file (given to you by the editors.) Same goes for any other video format; the demands on audio post in the video realm are small, so you don't have to spend too much there.

My 2cents

[shake]

hey,

you are over-complicating things.

what u need is a protools HD system with Sync I/O.
configure it with appropriate number of I/O's (analog or digital).
you dont need a radar system. protools acts as your recording medium (tape deck) and handles all of your dsp. if u need a console, i suggest the Control24.
SSL's are great, but the Control24 is a fraction of the price.

what u are asking for is not uncommon. syncing protools to LTC (or whatever you are using) is pretty solid. I've been syncing protools to many sources (LTC, 29.97df/ndf) for commercials, films etc.

You Said:
midi, as wonderful as it is, has SERIOUS limitations when trying to run say 16 Appogee's going out from a digital console such as the R100's digital insert points... and forget about the propogation delays and synching another 16 Appogee's coming back in on the HD system

WHY ARE U RUNNING MIDI FOR DIGITAL AUDIO? midi has nothing to do with digital audio. if u are using it to sync two digital systems together (like cheap time code), then i feel for you. Midi's SERIOUS limitation is that it's not digital! LOL

YOU ALSO SAID:
now there's the DSP jitter that will need to be going on when the Nuendo is feeding to/from HD and/or the RADAR's. AES works, but even MADI is limited to 24 tracks at a whack.

DSP jitter does not "need to be going on" at any time. jitter is an artifact from digital clocks that are not synced properly. jitter is a timing error. why are you feeding tracks to/from nuendo/HD/radar ?

DO YOU KNOW WHICH DIGITAL DEVICE IS THE CLOCK MASTER IN YOUR SYSTEM? IF YOU DONT, THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD INVESTIGATE THAT.


have you used protools before ? have you had your first session yet?

[railthinner]

Originally posted by shake
Midi's SERIOUS limitation is that it's not digital! LOL

Alright since I think I first mentioned MIDI here let me clarify this:

MIDI certainly is digital AND distinctly a different beast than digital audio.

What I was picturing is one machine running a bunch of soft synths while the other handles audio and sequencing, because that's what I've got going on using the MOTU midi timepiece. It's a flawless sync. Yout may want to look at the midi timepiece AV http://motu.com/english/hardware/mtpav_usb/body.html
argh, frames

But certainly if he's working in video post he's going to want a SMPTE master.

I'm not as familiar with Pro Tools as I should be but, yeah it seems everyone else who's posted here basically has the right idea. MaxMacHac...... what's the confusion. Is everyone not getting what you're trying to do, or are you not following this? You've got my curiosity at least.

[f-matic]

though i'm not 100% it is supported by the major sequencers (ex. logic, pro tools, etc), you may also want to investigate open sound control, which is basically a protocol for networking computers via ethernet, and has many advantages over midi (OSC can transmit data at 10 mbps, versus MIDI's 31.25 kbps). some info can be found here:

http://www.ixi-software.net/content/info/osc.html

i'm not sure if this is a solution you're looking for, but you could theoretically use it to sync together one master computer running sequences transmitted to slave computers processing audio or running soft synthesizers, which would be a whole lot easier than actually clustering them.

i personally use OSC within a program called max/msp -- audio running from a powerbook g3 is fed into another powerbook g3, which processes the audio and spits out audio analysis data (volume, pitch, etc) over OSC to a powerbook g4 for video generation. it works great once you've gone through the hassle of setting up the internal network (not that hard).

hope this provides some help,

best,
np

[manitoubalck]

What you need is one of these babies, + a whole load of other stuff that Mackie make:)

[MaxMacHac]

Thanx for all the interest in the topic folks! Maybe I just ain't quite expressing myself too clearly here. Lemme' see if I can 'splain it a bit more better.

Yes I've done a PT session, albeit LE. Mixing with a mouse is rediculous. Not enough tracks of CPU horsepower is the downfall of almost all of the "prosumer" level audio systems out there. DSP is all reliant upon the overall CPU strength... correct?

If, in building a "high-end" studio, one is to be compatable with: PT LE, PT HD, Nuendo, Cakewalk, DP, etc., each of these systems' files have to be converted into a common medium. e.g. broadcast wave. But even converting to broadcast wave, all of the session detail is lost as each system is proprietary in nature.

So..... why not build a system comprised of each of these systems? If in building this system, you use the additive power of the multiple processors, in theory, you overcome the CPU power issue. Correct? That's part of what I'm investigating.

Using MIDI to sync everything was suggested... not quick enough to overcome the inherent A/D lag as data is created and transferred... e.g. jitter. That was the point I was making.

As far as the actual transfer of digital audio signal... 10base-T is way to slow to transfer the data in real time. 1000Base-T might come close, but 40Gb should definitely do the job. Those switches are available... (Va Tech). Cisco announced yesterday that they are entering the foray of the 40Gb switching arena with upgradable devices.

The RADAR Nyquist system is hands down far superior in sonic quality to any PT system... yet, I will still need to be able to handle PT HD files in native format. To be able to integrate HD w/RADAR I can use the Sync I/O, but if the data can be placed on a common highspeed data buss, then I don't have the external issue with artifacts from the sync function to compound issues that will occassionally occur within the data buss from the other systems being tied in and integrated... just one less thing to buy or worry about... maybe.

Now we get to the really interesting point of it all... control surfaces and analog inserts. In my 40 years of music career and the last 5 of those as a mobile tracking studio owner, I've yet to hear anyone with even a year of tracking or mixing experience say that there is any DSP card or plug-in to have nearly the same sound, as say a 160 on a kik. Let's face it, there are some analog devices that will NEVER LIKELY be duplicated in the digital realm. So how do you integrate an analog insert device into the digital domain and not run into artifacts? OK, 4 or 5 consoles are capable... but they aren't compatable with PT HD. Arrrrrrgh! So, there's the key issue for arguing for a system which is capable of real-time D/A-A/D conversion, but still compatable w/PT HD.

Not to bash Mackie, but their control surface is junk IMO. I'm a hands-on engineer. Three buttons to get a knob to turn what I want is worthless compared to a true professional console that I can reach for the right knob and just turn it. The same applies to the Control24 and ProControl from what I've seen in the lit and from talking to a couple of other engineers. That's also a concern I have about the R-100, although not as much. I've talked to two friends who I respect that have used both, and said that sonically, the R-100 smokes the PM1-D. Bang for the buck, either of these beats the Studer, SSL API or AMEK.

I got a reply from an email I sent to Dean Dauger of http:\\www.daugerresearch.com
-----------
Hello,

Thank you very much for your interest! Yes, I believe it is also
applicable to digital audio. As with any application of parallel
computing, it's a matter of partitioning the problem into pieces that
can be divided among the processors in the cluster. There are usually
application-specific issues that need to be dealt with, but none has
yet been insurmountable.
------------

While I'm not convinced that I have to build the cluster, I just can't see why it won't work, and work well. A side benefit of a cluster would be the lack of need for a storage server... that and the backups should be fast as lightning.

Do I 'splain it more better now?

Thanx,
Max

[cpjakes]

I haven't followed this post until today, and here's what I think:

You have worked with Pro Tools LE. That is a weak beast and I'm not surprised that you want something more powerful. When dealing with an LE system, your DSP is based on your CPU power. A TDM system, like the Pro Tools Mix and HD systems has DSP cards with the system that take the load off of your CPU. That is what allows for you to run over a hundred tracks with plugins vs. 32 in LE.

A G5 dual 2.0GHz with and HD-3 (Pro Tools HD system with 3 PCI DSP cards) and the interfaces to connect all your gear will be more than adequate and work with your other DAW software. While it might be great to have such a clustered system in the future, it's overkill for what you want.

Add a control surface (Pro Control) to this so you don't have to mix with a mouse and you'll be set. Basically, one rack of Pro Tools gear (AD/DA, MIDI I/O, Sync I/O) and it will all work out of the box. But if you want to spend at least twice the cash (and Pro Tools HD systems don't come cheap) on your G5 cluster and the time researching it and setting it up, then that's your call...

In any case, good luck with whatever your choice is. If you do get it working, let's have some benchmarks on that puppy!

[Balooba]

First of all I would like to thank everybody for their advice. I did what many of you suggested and strapped six dual G5:s together with both duct tape and scotch. I have powered them all up but I see no effect in speed. Not even the hard drive is larger and the frame rate in Lemmings is only slightly faster than before. Please advice, should I use super glue?

[MacRAND]

Originally posted by cpjakes
A G5 dual 2.0GHz with and HD-3 (Pro Tools HD system with 3 PCI DSP cards) and the interfaces to connect all your gear will be more than adequate and work with your other DAW software. While it might be great to have such a clustered system in the future, it's overkill for what you want.

Add a control surface (Pro Control) to this so you don't have to mix with a mouse and you'll be set. Basically, one rack of Pro Tools gear (AD/DA, MIDI I/O, Sync I/O) and it will all work out of the box. But if you want to spend at least twice the cash (and Pro Tools HD systems don't come cheap) on your G5 cluster and the time researching it and setting it up, then that's your call...

If you do get it working, let's have some benchmarks on that puppy! From the computer standpoint, your choice of ONE G5 with maxed out RAM from those available as of January 6th, 2004, should be all you need as a CPU foundation, including any G5 XServe that might be announced. You should be very pleasantly surprised with what a Dual G5 2.0 to 2.6 GHz will do for you all by itself. Anything more is indeed "overkill".

Seems like your focus should instead be on selecting the
(1) control surface setup that will make your life easy, the
(2) primary software that you want to manage your audio, and then supporting it with
(3) other hardware that you have or need to acquire, while protecting your investment in
(4) existing plugins, programs and hardware.

Prices for some of the DigiDesign & AVID soft & hardware products have been coming down, and will likely keep coming down month by month. You just have to decide what you are going to use as cornerstones for your system, and then start building.

Your biggest problem may not be in making a list of what to acquire, but in making a list what to let go from your current equipment inventory; we all have that problem - letting go. Look outside the box.

Sounds like you want to build a quarter million dollar studio out of off-the-shelf parts like VT did with the Big Mac SuperComputer, which is a good idea. But I agree with the rest of those who have said that a cluster is probably NOT your answer. You will probably be very surprised at what one Dual G5 will do for you CPU wise.
:) Yes, let us know what you have decided to do... in detail.

[MaxMacHac]

MacRand, et al,

I thought I was already thinking outside the box. ???

My plan is to ADD all of this gear to a NEW studio. Most of the existing gear is scrap. The RADAR's are a definite. I'm putting two in the mobile rig and 2 in the studio. That ain't changing.

Being a realist, I would prefer that each application have it's own box and worksurface but space won't permit all those consoles with existing consoles and the R-100's.

OK, so I buy the HD3 and a dual G5...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for DP...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for Nuendo...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for PT LE...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for BiasPeak...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for Cuebase...
and lastly, I still have to buy a virus box to run Cakewalk.

I then have to buy, build and implement a relatively decent server... maybe an XServe or eServe with an LTO backup system

I then buy The ProControl24 and 2 MixedLogic M24's...

The end result is that I can accept anyone's files... but I STILL can't share the information except as a broadcast wave.

Does no one else see that it makes to explore putting all this potential CPU power together?

... and yes, I know that more than one box will sufice for other software. I'm just trying to illustrate the point where I started thinking from.

Is it me? or is it common NOT to think outside the box?

[MaxMacHac]

Originally posted by Balooba
First of all I would like to thank everybody for their advice. I did what many of you suggested and strapped six dual G5:s together with both duct tape and scotch. I have powered them all up but I see no effect in speed. Not even the hard drive is larger and the frame rate in Lemmings is only slightly faster than before. Please advice, should I use super glue?

Dude,

That was a waste of Scotch. Shoulda' used Vodka. Everybody knows Mac's prefer Martini's!!

BTW, YES, u should super glue the any key!

xaM:D

[Xapplimatic]

Originally posted by MaxMacHac
Using MIDI to sync everything was suggested... not quick enough to overcome the inherent A/D lag as data is created and transferred... e.g. jitter. That was the point I was making.

As far as the actual transfer of digital audio signal... 10base-T is way to slow to transfer the data in real time. 1000Base-T might come close, but 40Gb should definitely do the job. Those switches are available... (Va Tech). Cisco announced yesterday that they are entering the foray of the 40Gb switching arena with upgradable devices.

Ethernet is such a wasted standard.. It's implementation is over TCP/IP networking protocal which is only 20-30% efficient by all the estimates I have seen. Have you tried FireWire 800 a.k.a. IEEE 1394b (http://www.apple.com/firewire/) as a syncing method? I am aware that Panther has TCP/IP over FireWire as a networking option, and its much faster than Ethernet by my realworld tests.. even for just linking two Macs.. It was developed for pro video use amongst other things, so audio use should be a 'cakewalk' for it being the bandwidth requirements for realtime HD are definitely much higher than any audio gear I know. The FW800 Techbrief PDF from Apple (http://a992.g.akamai.net/7/992/51/93b28da05d3103/www.apple.com/firewire/pdf/FireWire_Tech_Brief-a.pdf) has a few things to say about the real-time nature of FW800 and its uses in Pro Audio..

FireWire 800 does have an optical standard spec as well (better to refer to it as IEEE 1394b I think when it comes to optical because there is no 'wire' to it!).
There are some interesting more tech-wise documents on the 1394 Trade Association (http://www.1394ta.org/) site that you should look into in this regard..

The 1394TA site linked over to this company which has made the first certified Optical 1394b repeater (http://www.newnex.com/) which is something you might need if your equipment is going to span some distance.. With this stuff as your networking standard, the weakest link therefore becomes the inherent (and unavoidable) delays by the analog section you referenced in your equipment.. not the digital domain.

A whitepaper (http://www.1394ta.org/Press/2003Press/january/White_paper.pdf) linked from the main 1394TA site explicitly states that 1394b supports IEC61883-6 standard AM824 which supports up to 96 KHz and beyond.. and that in conjunction with the fact that 1394 can support both synchronous and asynchronous operation (reserving up to 80% of its bandwidth for just a single snychronous channel = 640 Kbps dedicated for pushing your digital audio stream and the rest for command and control signals.. more than adequate i would think.)

Apple uses Fiber-channel to link XServe (http://www.xserve.com/xserve/) rack-mount servers as the highest sold and implemented networking form at this point. I'm sure rack-mount is the way you will want to go anyways... As far as power goes, the current one is might-fine, but probably the G5 version with 1394b will be announced in January at Mac World-->look for that as your hot ticket!!! Processing power? LOL.. plenty to spare.. Strap 2 or 3 dual-processor G5 XServes together with an XServe RAID high-bandwidth storage array (http://www.xserve.com/xserve/raid/) all linked dual port 2Gb Fiber Channel PCI cards via fiber optic... You won't lack speed anywhere in that system!! You will definitely need a RAID system of some kind in order to maintain the realtime storage and retrieval speeds you are looking for. Apples hardware is truly cheaper as is the Server OS which does not penalize you for how many rackmount or desktops you install it on in the same facility.. ($999 flat OS cost install on as many units as you use there..)

Or drop an email on this guy and see how this Mac-only audio pro does his stuff:

http://www.timlarkin.net

Probably he isn't quite as hard-core on the hardware end as what you're looking for, but I'm sure he will have a few suggestions on the software side of things!!!

I think that's about as much as I could say on the subject.. it was interesting research, that's for sure!

[legion]

Originally posted by MaxMacHac
MacRand, et al,

I thought I was already thinking outside the box. ???

My plan is to ADD all of this gear to a NEW studio. Most of the existing gear is scrap. The RADAR's are a definite. I'm putting two in the mobile rig and 2 in the studio. That ain't changing.

Being a realist, I would prefer that each application have it's own box and worksurface but space won't permit all those consoles with existing consoles and the R-100's.

OK, so I buy the HD3 and a dual G5...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for DP...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for Nuendo...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for PT LE...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for BiasPeak...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for Cuebase...
and lastly, I still have to buy a virus box to run Cakewalk.

I then have to buy, build and implement a relatively decent server... maybe an XServe or eServe with an LTO backup system

I then buy The ProControl24 and 2 MixedLogic M24's...

The end result is that I can accept anyone's files... but I STILL can't share the information except as a broadcast wave.

Does no one else see that it makes to explore putting all this potential CPU power together?

... and yes, I know that more than one box will sufice for other software. I'm just trying to illustrate the point where I started thinking from.

Is it me? or is it common NOT to think outside the box?

You are obviously not familiar with DAWs. For instance, you don't need Nuendo and Cubase-- they're the exact same engine. ProTools LE is not something you build a commercial studio around... you do with ProTools TDM (HD). There is a concept in the digital audio processing market between Native and DSP processing where external hardware boxes process the signal. TDM is a DSP (as are the HD Accel)-- Nuendo uses Native processing (the cpu takes all the work.) There are add on items like TC PowerCore to offload some work for creating a Native/DSP hybrid system (or using the CreamWare system, or god forbid, Plugzilla.) If you are spending any serious money, it's time for you to take a step back and realize you don't have the knowledge to construct something like this and get someone else to do so. All the help in the world from this forum will not get you up to speed fast enough to get a studio built.. Sorry to be a downer on this. :(

[MacRAND]

Originally posted by legion
If you are spending any serious money, it's time for you to take a step back and realize you don't have the knowledge to construct something like this and get someone else to do so.
All the help in the world from this forum will not get you up to speed fast enough to get a studio built. You have some great concepts, and the right design should serve you well. Take the referrals from the forum and offers of help and design from scratch. Make a list of what you want to accomplish and know your budget.
(Chefs and Restauranters do NOT design their own kitchens, professional Kitchen Designers [it's all they do] employed by architects and owners do. Chefs give input.)

Each Dual G5 Mac can run 2 large 23" Apple Cinema Displays with lots of visual real estate for displaying open software on the desktop.
Video editors use them all the time to manage
FinalCut Pro with video and audio tracks, windows to display clips,
Audio Mixer and controls,
Cinema Tools,
Soundtrack, titling with
LiveType,
DVD Studio, etc.
:)
One cursor floating back and forth between two Screens for drag & drop of files.
Shuttle Pros connected to specific application controls.
Control Surfaces in physical control of tracks instead of software sliders on the screen.

Mixing Audio is the same as editing video with sound, just different applications displayed on the monitor, and special equipment.

Have you ever tied two Monitors to the same Mac? It's fun.:p
You may need only half as many Dual G5s as you think.
Indeed, a couple of Macs like a G5 dual 2.x GHz and a new G5 XServe with an XServe RAID right out of the box would permit you to attach 4 large LCD Monitors (3 LCDs are probably ideal, with a single 19" CRT to one side) with a desk in front and surrounded by Control Surfaces -
audio Enterprise BRIDGE in control of the Star Trek hypersonic universe.
You are Capt. Kirk and Scotty is your Audio Design Engineer.
Live long and prosper.

Clean your new Macs: when you get your Macs, loaded with all sorts of free software, dump anything non-audio/video (World Book 2004, Address Book, AOL, Chess, etc.) and burn it to a DVD as an archive (or, move it to your old Mac); then trash it all. Run DeLocalizer to clean out all foreign languages (French, Korean, and Simplified Chinese) and reclaim a whole gig.
If you need Internet access with a browser or email, set up your old Mac for communication, scanning, iTunes, and everything else. (preaching to the choir?)

Caviat: some software will need an internet connection to check for Updates. However, shut OFF auto check. Instead, set up a schedule to turn your main Macs into "external FireWire Drives" (hold down T-key upon startup of G5) connected to your Old Mac, and use it to open software once a month to manually check for Updates. Pull the FireWire cable, Restart, and you're current and disconnected from the Old Mac.

[shake]

OK, so I buy the HD3 and a dual G5...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for DP...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for Nuendo...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for PT LE...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for BiasPeak...
I still have to buy 1 more G5 for Cuebase...
and lastly, I still have to buy a virus box to run Cakewalk.



you are absolutely insane.
can u buy me a new g5 with protools on it? i only use my g4 for microsoft word. oh, and maybe an ibook for LE!

you are not thinking outside the box. you are inside the box looking outside... wondering how everyone manages to do stuff with one mac.


i get sessions all the time from other studios using all the above software. if the sequencer/daw supports OMF, they should export the session as an OMF file, then use digitranslator to translate it into a protools session with all files, cuts, fades, and midi intact.

how many cubase, nuendo, cakewalk (people still use cakewalk?) sessions to you get a month? is it worth buying a system for every peice of audio software? are you going to buy another system when protools 7 comes out? thats pretty foolish.

i assume you do know the difference between an LE and TDM system?
do you also knowm that evrything you can do in Peak can be done in ProTools?

[MacRAND]

Originally posted by MaxMacHac
MacRand, et al,

Is it me? or is it common NOT to think outside the box? It is not uncommon to have a hard time thinking outside of the box, it's usual.

As an Audio Engineer (Sound Man?), you focus on using your experience to create product with familiar software. Your natural bond & loyalty to existing software cannot help but influence your choices.
What is being suggested is that you take your "requirements" and a list of your "inventory", hard and software, to a professional EXPERT to more OBJECTIVELY design a studio for you - like your local DigiDesign representative, or take a short trip to LA or NY and talk to someone there. Sounds like ProTools HD should be the foundation of your software, so then find out if mastering the use of PT HD means you don't need Cakewalk, Cubase, Bias and others. DigiDesign makes some pretty cool control surface, right? Talk audio hardware, software, computers, and plug-ins; discuss Apple's FireWire800, fast USB 2.0, fiber optics options, digital audio ports, and your computer & monitor needs.
:cool:
Video Editors use to need a separate app for Titles and Soundtrack until FinalCut Pro 4 came along, now it's too easy to just do almost all of it within FCP4, and faster.

I'm not an audio man (obvious, huh) but I suspect that talking to some pros (like some of the guys contributing on this thread) may open your eyes a lot.
:eek:
Ten years ago I depended on Adobe (formerly Aldus) PageMaker for certain forms design until MS Word made it possible, and easier, to create all but the most demanding forms in a word processor. Today, the original power of PageMaker has sadly become obsolete because the power of MS Word has eclipsed it.
:(
Not being aware of competitive changes in software capability can make a dinosaur (like me) out of anyone. Look at the inroads Adobe InDesign has made into that quarky express product, what's it called? About 15 years ago, Apple had 50% of the personal computer market sewed up, not today.

Building a new studio gives you the perfect opportunity to step back, look around at what's available to make your work and your life fun and profitable. You may have to put some old software that you have enjoyed using to one side. Hey, OS 9 is dead, and replacements for almost everything is now available in OS X. Don't fight progress. It may take some retraining (ugh!) on new software and equipment, but it will definitely be worth it.
:)
The best news is that it has become pretty obvious that you will not need as much computer equipment as you had thought, you are going to save a ton of money by doing it right.
;)
Let us know how it works out.
Change is good. :cool:

[MacRAND]

MaxMacHac,

How many tracks do you want? 126?
Have you looked at Apple's Soundtrack ($300) that is free standing or part of FinalCut Pro 4.0 ($999)? Included are
• Emagic AU Plug-ins
• Apple AU effects

Soundtrack

Minimum Requirements
Macintosh Computer with a single 500MHz or dual 450MHz or faster PowerPC G4 processor
Mac OS X v 10.2.5 or later
QuickTime 6.1 or later
384MB of RAM (512MB recommended)
CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive required for installation of Soundtrack.
DVD-ROM drive required for installation of Apple Loops (optional)
5GB of available disk space required for application and content installation

Easy-to-use interface
Real-time pitch and tempo adjusted loop matching
Over 4,000 royalty-free loops and Sound Effects included
Modular design for arranging audio loops
Import Final Cut Pro video with scoring markers
Support for import of QuickTime movies in DV, SD, and HD formats for scoring
Over 30 professional audio effects plug-ins from Apple and Emagic
Powerful search engine
Automatic matching of music loops by key and tempo
All work performed in real time
Complete support of key, tempo and meta-data for Apple Loops and ACID file formats.
Export up to 24bit 96kHz resolution
Export as stereo AIFF, individual tracks, or as a QuickTime Movie
Mac OS X Audio Unit effects plug-in support
Full automation of mixing and effects parameters
Up to 126 simultaneous audio tracks
Royalty Free music creation
Support Stereo and Mono loop files
Multiple odd time signatures
Soundtrack Loop Utility for creating Apple Loops from raw AIFF or WAV file formats
Audio recording in single or multiple takes
Pitch shifting of individual regions
Custom beat and time markers
Loop playback functionality
Synchronization of music to video markers
Audio waveform display
Supported formats (up to 24bit 96kHz)
Apple Loops
Acid
AIFF
WAV

Included Apple AU effects
Band Pass Filter
Delay
Graphic EQ
High Shelf Filter
High Pass Filter
Low Pass Filter
Low Shelf Filter
Matrix Reverb
Parametric EQ
Peak Limiter
Soundtrack Auto Filter
Soundtrack Reverb

Included Emagic AU Plug-ins
Auto Filter
Bitcrusher
Chorus
Clip Distortion
Compressor
Distortion
Ensemble
Fat EQ
FlangerModulation Delay
Noise Gate
Overdrive
Phase Distortion
Phaser
Platinum Reverb
Stereo Delay
Sub-Bass
Tape Delay
Tremelo[COLOR=red]

[legion]

Originally posted by MacRAND
MaxMacHac,

How many tracks do you want? 126?
Have you looked at Apple's Soundtrack ($300) that is free standing or part of FinalCut Pro 4.0 ($999)? Included are
• Emagic AU Plug-ins
• Apple AU effects


MacRAND,

Soundtrack isn't good for an audio studio from the get go because it misses a major component: handling MIDI. If his intention is to integrate with analogue equipment, or wavetables, or sampling, etc.. he'll need MIDI at some point. A Logic/ProTools HD system (both, not either/or) would be best as a starting point.

Still, my highest recommendation is the: inventory of current equipment/outlining of his needs/and speaking to a professional.

[MaxMacHac]

Originally posted by legion
MacRAND,

Soundtrack isn't good for an audio studio from the get go because it misses a major component: handling MIDI. If his intention is to integrate with analogue equipment, or wavetables, or sampling, etc.. he'll need MIDI at some point. A Logic/ProTools HD system (both, not either/or) would be best as a starting point.


I agree about the MIDI still being necessary... I don't know too many kb players that don't still love and use midi to trigger, sync and sample.


Still, my highest recommendation is the: inventory of current equipment/outlining of his needs/and speaking to a professional.


Done... been done... I've been talking to several gear reps... have been for quite some time... about 36 months. Let's face it, talking to reps is like talking to A&R guys. Watch your wallet and believe about half of what they say... but that's for another forum altogether.

I have a studio designer that I've been consulting with for well over 24 months. As a matter of fact, he was instrumental in helping us to make the decision to buy the property for the studio. (Still have to get approval on a septic system from the county Board of Health before anything starts. Been waiting on that for almost 3 months. Gotta LOVE it.)

Bottom line is that I am a newbie here, but I'm no newbie. I have quite a bit of experience in audio, production, computing and and imaging. My first introduction to digital video was way back in 1984 and I've been relatively keeping pace with technology since CPM 2.0.4a. (That's pre-DOS and wondoze for you kids.) That probably makes me ancient, but not stupid. The new studio is completely wide open as far as most of the gear is concerned. I have a reasonably decent budget, and it's all on the table for discussion. Which is all I was hoping to do by coming here and asking a question.

Look, the whole thing is that some of you read that someone has an idea that you honestly believe you already have the answer to. That's fine, and I don't necessarily agree or disagree. What does it take to get that through to you folks? Is it that people just don't read a post in it's entiretly or is it that it's more fun to cut and parse words into things that aren't the intent of the originator.

I want to try to clarify a couple of things... AGAIN!

First; I'm NOT in LA or NY. It ain't the same there as it is out here in the real world of low income musicians and churches. I get about 3 calls a month asking if I can either accept or transfer stuff from one softare package to another because the client is out of room, or doesn't have enough computer to do the job. This isn't about whether I WANT to run the programs for myself, it's to run them as a service for the client. And YES I DO GET CALLS ABOUT CAKEWALK! 2 last month alone! Heck, I got a call last month asking about mini-disk conversion! I get calls for 1"-8, TASCAM 4track, Fostex, ADAT, DA-88's and on rare occassion even DASH.

Second; I stated that I'm already going to be getting an HD1 or an HD3 already. Give it a rest kids. I looked at HD about 6 years ago and didn't think it was ready for the road in a mobile recording facility. I still don't think it's road worthy. Thus, I will be integrating RADAR Nyquist for the rig AND the studio... so I need to be able to sync and transfer into and out of TDM... SYNC I/O already...

Third; all of my existing digital domain gear is obsolete... DUH! That's why I'm getting RADAR, TDM and Nuendo (at the LEAST) for a NEW brick and mortar facility... new facility, new gear. Also on the table for discussion: Sony DMX R-100, SSL C-200, Studer 950s, AMEK Media51 and the Yamaha PM1-D

Fourth; again as I previously stated, in coming across the announcement of the "Big Mac" at VA Tech, I thought it might well be an idea worth exploring putting together a small cluster. Why? Well, since in an IDEAL situation, each application "should", key word here is SHOULD be on it's own box. In using that criteria as a BASE POINT to work from, I come up with about 6 boxes and a server. e.g. the basis for a cluster.

Lastly; Using the starting point of that many boxes, (one per application), it would seem that it should not be that much more of a stretch to "strap" or cluster the horsepower together to actually be able to:
a.) Complete the projects that I am getting calls about fixing or completing.
b.) Take on an expanded client base of outside "producers" and "engineers" who are still using all these older prosumer grade sytems.
c.) Convert any existing tracks in these older prosumer systems into any other system including TDM and RADAR.
Thus the original point of my question.

So far the answers I've received in a nutshell:
I'm insane. - Technically I'm not. I've actually got quite a ways to go. The lightning did some serious damage to my CNS. I'm able to still walk reasonably well and I do have to take some rather serious medication to maintain the pain, but it didn't take my sanity. You guys who don't actually read the posts in their entirety are starting to push the envelope, though.
I don't know what I'm doing with a network. - Possibly, but being responsible for a network which churns about 2 Terabytes of images and data every 90 days, I'm competent enough to handle data throughput with minimal problems. I designed it and it more than gets the job done. I dunno, maybe 25 years in electronic engineering doesn't mean squat anymore.
I need to learn new software. - No kiddin'? (That's meant to be funny, not sarcastic.) I'm old, but I ain't stupid OK? If I'm willing to take on a cluster, I think I ought to be willing to learn new software... (that was meant to be sarcastic in a light-hearted way.)

whatever,

Max

[MacRAND]

Originally posted by legion
MacRAND,
Soundtrack isn't good for an audio studio from the get go because it misses a major component: handling MIDI.
If his intention is to integrate with analogue equipment, or wavetables, or sampling, etc.. he'll need MIDI at some point. A Logic/ProTools HD system (BOTH, not either/or) would be best as a starting point.

Still, my highest recommendation is the:
inventory of current equipment/
outlining of his needs/and
speaking to a professional. Right. Logic/ProTools HD for acquisition via MIDI.
Soundtrack is editing already acquired audio, especially from video, or using the 4,000 sound files, plugins, and audio effects for video. And, Logic / ProTools|HD or ProTools|HD Accel covers MIDI and video editing of soundtracks. But, as you say, consult a professional for help in picking.

Will this combination satisfy his needs that have previously been supplied by Bias, Cakewalk, and other softwate?

http://www.digidesign.com/
Unless MaxMacHac just has to have a large Control Surface with physical control for all 126 tracks at once, all the video editor people I know just manage 24 at a time in layers of 24 each with something like Control|24 Hardware and MaxMacHac might be able to save as much as $2,500 with DigiDesign's current Exchange Program by trading one of his old pieces of hardware (Yamaha, Mackie, etc.).

Will this setup give MaxMacHac the analog MIDI controls he needs? Also on the above website, DigiDesign explains in detail which of their software programs will run on OS X Panther 10.3 (almost all), including which have already been enhanced for G5. One Dual G5 appears to have more than enough horsepower to handle MaxMacHac's editing studio requirements, especially if RAM is maxed out.

Once Apple comes out with a G5 PowerBook, I bet even a single G5 would have enough power for woking in the field.
:cool:

CLUSTER: Before getting into a cluster, wouldn't it be a good idea to start out with a G5 dual-something as of January 2004, including the possibility of using an XServe G5 to see if ONE G5 is enough, combined with an XServe RAID?
Interestingly, my video/audion (ex-radio) buddy Dennis, and I have been talking about "cluster" and "super computer" possibilities for running FCP4 in just such a way as to maximize real-time capabilities for more than 7 tracks of video at a time. And, MaxMacHac idea of using an XServe RAID with fiber optic and Ethernet 1000 speed is awesome.

MaxMacHac, have you considered "partitioning" your primary hard Drive into 1 for the System, and several more - one for each program you think needs to be within its own "box", plus one for a bunch of minor applications? Unless you find that the single G5 Mac fails to perform adequately, I'd hold off on trying to cluster, but the idea is tempting.
The reason I suggested flying over to either coast, NC is closer to NY than LA, is to get a higher level of professional advice than may be available in North Carolina, or Arizona, or Alaska, one that is hopefully very objective?
Since you are into video editing, which editing software do you use. There's a big difference in levels between FCP4, Adobe Premiere, and AVID anything.

Design the perfect studio first without any consideration for what you already possess, then see how much of what you do have can be salvaged and used.
(Read your published profile, I'm impressed) :)

[giffut]

This is a fairly easy way to make clusters with any Powermac and OSX.

It is called POOCH. Try here: http://daugerresearch.com/pooch/whatis.html

[MaxMacHac]

As originally designed, I will have a second G5 for all of the other misc audio stuff. The first G5 will be for the PT HD system. I'll retire my G3 B&W for web/database and other functions. My other intent is an XServe for file storage and archive... and my wife get's her iMac back as her personal computer.

MIDI will be through PT, Nuendo and the ADAT's.

Audio will be backed up off of the RADAR's to the XServe and from there pulled into PT/Nuendo through OMF... AND through SYNC I/O directly into/out of the HD system as you've read previously. The system is now a closed loop.

Since clustering is still "on the table" I'll only reference it in this way so as not to try to excite others into a rampage...

If I build it, the cluster would be "seen" by PT and all of the "other" software and hardware as a single CPU/System, and yes it would probably be best to be seen as separate partitions... as would the second G5 in the original scheme.

Since it really makes no difference as to which control surface any of the software packages are pushed though, a single contol surface will suffice but for the most demanding of projects. Which if I run into one of those, I'll just have to force the client into either PT or into using the RADAR system.

About networking at Gb... 1Gb is OK, but as was previously pointed out, TCP is overtly bloated with inefficient bandwidth usage. In my tests/real world experience, Gb yields a best case scenereo of about 400-450 Mb of real data transfer. Everything else is chatter and eaten up buy the protocol. when network traffic is loaded, bandwidth usage can drag the numbers down to well under 250Mb. If firewire 800 will work, it's definitely worth digging deeper into. I guess it's really a matter of talking to the Digi engineering folks to see if they'll offer support for it.

I wish I could make the decision on which HD system to go with before Digi ends the trade-in special... I sure would love to dump my old Mackie 24-8 buss, save the bucks and clear some room. Maybe for Christmas...

I appologize if I mislead you into understanding that I'm still working with video. I'm looking forward to working with it again, but I'm currently just shoving images and data around. I have HDTV broadcast/cable everywhere around me here. If I can build a beefy enough system I am hoping to tap into that market to help supplement the ol' bottom line with it. Additionally, I've got a boatload of video game companies down the road in RTP I wouldn't mind hooking into either.

Thanks for the input.

Max

[MacRAND]

MaxMacHac,

Your plan sounds pretty solid. Now tell us what you are planning to do for monitors to manage all this audio power.

Taking timely advantage of Digi deals sounds great (out with the old, in with the new), but be sure to do yourself a huge favor and wait until the new Mac G5s are out January 6th and the Dual 2GHz price drops as much as $1,000. Unless you really need 2.4 of 2.6 power, a couple of 2.0 dual G5s would be awesome. Hopefully, the new Apple Cinema Displays will be out so you can get one for each G5 along with AppleCare to cover the monitors for no more than what it costs to cover the G5s.

Not only keep us informed about the build for your new, fresh studio, try to upload some pictures so we can see.

Really, it sounds like a PLAN. :D

[MaxMacHac]

Originally posted by MacRAND
MaxMacHac,

Your plan sounds pretty solid. Now tell us what you are planning to do for monitors to manage all this audio power.

Taking timely advantage of Digi deals sounds great (out with the old, in with the new), but be sure to do yourself a huge favor and wait until the new Mac G5s are out January 6th and the Dual 2GHz price drops as much as $1,000. Unless you really need 2.4 of 2.6 power, a couple of 2.0 dual G5s would be awesome. Hopefully, the new Apple Cinema Displays will be out so you can get one for each G5 along with AppleCare to cover the monitors for no more than what it costs to cover the G5s.

Not only keep us informed about the build for your new, fresh studio, try to upload some pictures so we can see.

Really, it sounds like a PLAN. :D

I'm thinking that the Cinema Displays are going to be a bit too small... I'd like to put the monitors on the control room wall over the window to the main tracking room. That should be something like 6-7 feet away, if the drawings hold and we don't have to move too much stuff around. Soooooooo...

I'm looking at getting 2 plasma displays. I figure that two 42" displays should do the job. (If yer gonna be a pig, be a pig all the way, right?!?):D
Here's a couple of models I've been looking at... and of course there's always a difference in what it looks like on-line and what it looks like when it comes time to write the check! :mad:
BENQ 46W1 46IN HDTV Plasma Display
NEC PlasmaSync 42XM2
Pioneer PureVision PDP-5030HD 50 in. Flat Panel Television

My RD-175 took a dive last week and I need to get a new PCMCIA card. As soon as we break ground and I get a chance to get a new card I'll post back with a link to the studio website and some shots.

Max:D

[rlhubley]

I am definitley interested.....




..... in WHERE YOUR FUNDING COMES FROM!!!