Apple Console...when??

[I'mAMac]

Every console out there is terrible. Whether its Microsofts completely unreliable 360, Sony's crappy PS3 or the Wii. The big thing is that Microsoft, Apple's major competitor, has a console but it's so bad, Apple could easily outdo them in this field. Anyone feel the same way?

[michaelltd]

lol, Nope! :cool:

[MacRumorUser]

Yeah Apple could out do them.... by losing even more money than M$ multi multi billion losses & Sony's 16 billion PS3 losses etc.

Apple have more sense than enter this field, besides they have never really been big on games, and just the logistics of it (designing a new gaming OS and a decent gaming API and such and your just talking $$$$ nightmare) pretty much rule it out.

[Zwhaler]

Nah, the big three are fine the way they are. I love my PS3, and frankly wouldn't buy an iConsole.

[MattZani]

If anything, the PS4 will be heavily influenced and co-designed by Apple, as it seems Apple and Sony have been buddying up for quite a while (maybe something to do with a common enemy?) And what with rumours that the iPod Touch and iPhone could interact with the PS3 using WiFi, and that we will see AAC Encoded support for PS3 etc.

I would buy an Apple Console straight away, just as i would a SEGA console :cool:

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Do you not remember the Apple console disaster?

[spyker3292]

Do you not remember the Apple console disaster?

I was wondering when someone would mention that.

[MacRumorUser]

maybe he should read no 22 ;)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/125772-6/the_25_worst_tech_products_of_all_time.html

http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/

[Sky Blue]

when??

the hardware came out last year ... the software starts Friday.

http://www.phonesreview.co.uk/wp-content/phoneimages/2008/06/wwdc-keynote_069.jpg

[stagi]

Apple did have some bombs in the 90's but with the coolness factor they have going for them now they could break into the console industry with a new type of device.

[Dagless]

Nope.

Furthest it will get is TV out on an iPod Touch/iPhone. See the big thing about these "crappy" consoles if they (mostly) have a stupidly large number of systems in houses with mindshares, developers and publishers staunchly centred around them. Apple has completely failed in the games market first with the Pippin and now with their attitude towards gaming as a whole.

[TwinCities Dan]

Don't see it happening (again)

[thechidz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_KxN0Nepus
:cool:

[KurtangleTN]

Introducing the iGame.

Comes in two varieties, Pro or Consumer.

The iGame which has an integrated video card, mobile parts, it's thin though! Starts at $600. Controller, video cable sold separately.

The iGame Pro comes with a mid level graphics card not really suitable for gaming, but it's using top of the line processors, it's normal sized. Starts at $1,200. Controller and video cable sold separately.

[Dagless]

Controller and video cable sold separately.

We're not talking about PS3 :p;)

[KurtangleTN]

We're not talking about PS3 :p;)

Mine was included?

[liptonlover]

I don't think apple will, but I think they COULD. But they won't and don't need to, because they already have by creating the iphone and itouch.

[KurtangleTN]

Whoops, but there is one more thing..

What do you normally put into game consoles.. well it started with carts.. then they evolved into CDs, now mainly DVDs except for the PS3 with Blu Rays.

Now these are all great, but they are a hassle, I mean who wants to go up and swap disks!

Both the iGame and the iGame Pro will ship.. without an optical drive.

To get games you go to the Game store and download from there!

But.. there is just another thing I forgot to talk about, geez.

You know Nintendo is an innovative company, and their Wii remote has lead the way for their sales and accomplishments. We know the game controller is perhaps the MOST important part. Not the graphics, discs, no.. the controller.

We look at them, they all have too many buttons. We're going to replace them with optical sensors! What consumers are telling us is that tatical feedback is overrated in games and is no longer needed, so we're making the switch and I think the industry will be 5 years behind us.

Thank you for coming!

[TwinCities Dan]

It kinda bothers me when people spread rumors with actual names when they know it isn't true. :rolleyes:

In case anybody can't see thru the sarcasm, there is no iGame and there won't be one (at least not from :apple:)

Not trying to be a buzzkill, its just that a lot of people read these forums for REAL information and legitimate rumors, talking like this release is imminent is VERY MISLEADING to the average forum browser. :(

Ok, back to the fantasy land game console discussion... ;)

[KurtangleTN]

It kinda bothers me when people spread rumors with actual names when they know it isn't true. :rolleyes:

In case anybody can't see thru the sarcasm, there is no iGame and there won't be one (at least not from :apple:)

Not trying to be a buzzkill, its just that a lot of people read these forums for REAL information and legitimate rumors, talking like this release is imminent is VERY MISLEADING to the average forum browser. :(

Ok, back to the fantasy land game console discussion... ;)

Well there isn't legit or real info on an Apple game console, so we have to speculate, and the iGame seems most possible.

[e²Studios]

Well there isn't legit or real info on an Apple game console, so we have to speculate, and the iGame seems most possible.

It'll never happen. Apple doesn't like to lose money, they would certainly lose if they announced a game console. Just thinking out loud it would be billions in development and QA, and thats before you even have a finished product to show/sell. Then you have to spend millions to lure companies in as developers, they don't do exclusives or timed exclusives for free. Of course then there are in house studios, again millions in human equity and infrastructure.

Speculating about Apple making a console has about the same possibility of happening as "speculating" oil prices will go down to $30/barrel during tomorrows trading. Could it happen, sure, but the realistic chances of it happening are a pipe dream.

Furthermore if you are the one that said $600 and $1200 for a console that has no track record, nor any real gaming following I would put money on it that it would become the next Dreamcast, lofty dreams. The PS3 had a hard time after its initial launch at $600 and it was put out by a proven studio, with a great track record among its loyal fans. Any console that debuts at $1200 is dooming itself for failure, though I really wouldn't put it past Steve's arrogance to try.

[t0mat0]

Sorry if i've got the wrong end of the stick, but isn't the Touch and the iPhone soon to become a multi-purpose device, including a games console?

[mr.light]

Pippin II! It could happen! ;):D

[liptonlover]

the iphone and itouch are being hyped as great gaming devices and it's not just hype and fantasy. It's absolutely true. If apple wanted to make a console, they've got what they need to do it.

1. they already have the appletv connected to our tv's and wifi and computers with the ability to download stuff.

2. they know how to think outside the box.

3. they are getting developers on board with them via the iphone and itouch. They've attracted some big names.

So I'm still going to say they could but not likely.

[KurtangleTN]

It'll never happen. Apple doesn't like to lose money, they would certainly lose if they announced a game console. Just thinking out loud it would be billions in development and QA, and thats before you even have a finished product to show/sell. Then you have to spend millions to lure companies in as developers, they don't do exclusives or timed exclusives for free. Of course then there are in house studios, again millions in human equity and infrastructure.

Speculating about Apple making a console has about the same possibility of happening as "speculating" oil prices will go down to $30/barrel during tomorrows trading. Could it happen, sure, but the realistic chances of it happening are a pipe dream.

Furthermore if you are the one that said $600 and $1200 for a console that has no track record, nor any real gaming following I would put money on it that it would become the next Dreamcast, lofty dreams. The PS3 had a hard time after its initial launch at $600 and it was put out by a proven studio, with a great track record among its loyal fans. Any console that debuts at $1200 is dooming itself for failure, though I really wouldn't put it past Steve's arrogance to try.

What I meant to say is that the iGame is about as good as anyone else's guess. Not that I actually believe it, it's just digs at Apple.

[mikeyPotg]

I certainly don't see apple getting into the console business anytime soon. They've made some strides into gaming as of late... but I think the iPhone & iPod touch are going to be the closing thing apple has to a console for at least the next 5 years.
Also, a lot of people in the gaming industry are crying out for 1 open sources system so developers don't have to port and waste money doing all of that - though I don't see that ever happening.

[Dagless]

Sorry if i've got the wrong end of the stick, but isn't the Touch and the iPhone soon to become a multi-purpose device, including a games console?

Technically no, it'd be a handheld not a console. Consoles are the big jock off things that don't use their own displays, don't have batteries etc.

[Antares]

Do you not remember the Apple console disaster?

How was the Pippin a disaster? It was just a concept and a prototype that Apple ultimately decided not to persue.

[AlexH]

Forget the Apple console, how about working with Sony by bringing :apple: TV functionality to the PS3. Now that would rock.

[TwinCities Dan]

How was the Pippin a disaster? It was just a concept and a prototype that Apple ultimately decided not to persue.

Ummm...Sorry my friend, but you are mistaken (42,000 units sold and only lasted a year or two)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippen

[Dagless]

Forget the Apple console, how about working with Sony by bringing :apple: TV functionality to the PS3. Now that would rock.

Lol no. Sony are after cutting production costs (see EE chip), AppleTV software would likely be a very expensive system to license.

Officially... of course.

[Antares]

Ummm...Sorry my friend, but you are mistaken (42,000 units sold and only lasted a year or two)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippen

What!!! :eek: I thought the Pippin was never made! I must have completely dropped off the planet when that came out. ....And I was an Apple Evangelist back then. I am totally floored that it was actually made and released. My only memory was pictures of prototypes with the apple logo on it. :eek: I am seriously shocked. Wow! I must have amnesia or something. Wow. :eek: I can't believe that. No way. That page has to be fake. There is no way I could not know this.

[liptonlover]

could the apple tv be made into a gaming console like I hinted at earlier?
Think about it... you already have a sound OS, a tested and proven product, a sleek and known name and design, that can handle all of your media. Games are generally included in the circle of "media" when you're talking about a "media" system. updating the apple tv solves a lot of initial problems.

[Dagless]

a sleek and known name...
...That is anti-known for its games.

The only control is the Apple remote. If anyone else has tried using a LAN game controller (like a DS or PSP) then you'll know the lag restricts it from being a useable controller.

[liptonlover]

first I'd like to remedy that quote. I meant to say sleek device and known name. For the record. :D

Not anti-known, just not known because they don't exist. But it's a product that's sold decent numbers, so it's already got a foothold. A lot better than trying to come out with ANOTHER line of products.

First, correct me if I'm wrong but does it not have bluetooth a/o IR capabilities? The wii uses IR just fine. No lagginess there. And it's worrying about motion sensors and all that too. And if it doesn't have wireless, either add it or do wires!

Second, even though it'll be a whole new platform for developers, that shouldn't be a problem either. Just use cocoa just like they do for the iphone and touch.

Third, just imagine the announcement. If they announce an ibox, or iplay, or whatever they want to call it everyone's going to have a big deja vu. Everyone will laugh because Apple is having another go at the console market. But if they announce, and not as the BIGGEST story, that the apple tv has gotten a makeover and is now the ULTIMATE wireless media player and that it also has the ABILITY to play games (remotes separate, all the gaming is an option, hidden away if not wanted) and also give the apple tv other upgrades, it'll go a lot better. First they aren't making a big huge announcement so if it's horrible they won't be nearly as embarrassed, second they aren't losing as much implementing it in the first place.

Sorry about rambling on so long.... :D

[e²Studios]

Sorry about rambling on so long.... :D

The Wii only uses IR for pointing, the rest is all BT. The IR pointing can get sketchy at times if the conditions aren't right, its not unplayable, but it has gotten frustrating for me a few times.

Apple TV has the framework for BT, but it lacks the hardware needed to support it.

[pcypert]

I'll say it till it happens but they'd be best served by teaming with Nintendo and putting the Apple TV into a Wii. Give the Wii hard drive and internet access and down loadable content.

Apple's focus on design, image, etc kind of run counter to a gaming console. The best I could see would be a box that intentionally ran counter to the next gen trends and focused on flash games and the like. Maybe if they shot for super nes or 64 level graphics and gameplay with simple to download games. I could see that working given their history in the market. Casual games and board games to add to the apple tv in the living room already. That'd be something I'd be interested in.

Paul

[TwinCities Dan]

I'll say it till it happens but they'd be best served by teaming with Nintendo and putting the Apple TV into a Wii. Give the Wii hard drive and internet access and down loadable content.

Apple's focus on design, image, etc kind of run counter to a gaming console. The best I could see would be a box that intentionally ran counter to the next gen trends and focused on flash games and the like. Maybe if they shot for super nes or 64 level graphics and gameplay with simple to download games. I could see that working given their history in the market. Casual games and board games to add to the apple tv in the living room already. That'd be something I'd be interested in.

Paul

An Apple/Nintendo team would be sweet but I still don't see it happening...

[evan g]

I think that Apple is a very capable company, but it just would be safer to stay away from the dangerous waters, otherwise known as "console wars".

[gkarris]

How was the Pippin a disaster? It was just a concept and a prototype that Apple ultimately decided not to persue.

Apple persued it alright, I've got the Apple-branded one in my collection.

They decided not to compete with Nintendo, and Sony, and now MS is in the fold.

They decided to go the handheld route. Their new console platform is called the iPhone and the iPod Touch.

[GFLPraxis]

Apple Console...when??

http://www.sanfords.net/Spots_free_graphics/Pigs/pig1.gif

[e²Studios]

They decided to go the handheld route. Their new console platform is called the iPhone and the iPod Touch.

And compete in an even bigger market with two huge goliaths that are already battling each other? The iPhone and Touch are not handhelds, and will be about as sucessful at being one as the N-Gage was.

[GFLPraxis]

The iPhone and Touch are not handhelds, and will be about as sucessful at being one as the N-Gage was.

Let's not go overboard, they'd have to try pretty hard to accomplish that.

[pcypert]

I hear all this NGage stuff, but here in Thailand almost every male has one. Maybe they're getting pirated games (is that possible) but I see so many of those things "in the wild" over here. Maybe not a success in the US, but lots of love over here. See waaaayyyy more of those on the trains than DS or PSP though the later two have been growing as of late.

Paul

[GFLPraxis]

the iphone and itouch are being hyped as great gaming devices and it's not just hype and fantasy. It's absolutely true. If apple wanted to make a console, they've got what they need to do it.

1. they already have the appletv connected to our tv's and wifi and computers with the ability to download stuff.

2. they know how to think outside the box.

3. they are getting developers on board with them via the iphone and itouch. They've attracted some big names.

So I'm still going to say they could but not likely.

Being hyped? Big name developers?

SEGA's the only big name developer I see who has shown a product. Hudson and EA have some stuff in works, and then there's a bunch of small unheard of studios.

Wake me up when there are big-name franchises announcing iPhone games. That's what'll bring people over, and Apple historically has never put forth the effort to bring those kinds of games developers over.

They have the AppleTV connected, sure, but does the AppleTV have a good graphics chipset for gaming? Do people who own AppleTV's have a controller to use with it? Are they the same marketshare as those who own an XBox or PS3 or Wii? And is the AppleTV's marketshare anywhere NEAR that of the Wii?

[GFLPraxis]

I hear all this NGage stuff, but here in Thailand almost every male has one. Maybe they're getting pirated games (is that possible) but I see so many of those things "in the wild" over here. Maybe not a success in the US, but lots of love over here. See waaaayyyy more of those on the trains than DS or PSP though the later two have been growing as of late.

Paul
I've never even seen an NGage in the wild. Every store stopped carrying the games a good couple of years ago. It's pretty dead here...
EDIT:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051125-5627.html

It IS dead.

[Soulstorm]

The reason why people buy Macs is that they are stable, fast and easy to use. Those are the areas where Apple has hit its competitors. But how more easy to use can a console be? The console world has already reached a high level. For Apple to enter that area, it would be an economical suicide.

[nagromme]

I was just thinking about this myself.

I don't think Apple specifically PLANS to make a game console, but I can see SOME chance of the following happening:

* iPhone/iPod Touch platform takes off (done deal)

* Lots of game developers learn Xcode as a result (happening already)

* iPhone GAMING takes off (inevitable)

* AppleTV's hardware specs will improve (a matter of time)

* Apple TV gains a new input device, maybe touch-based and/or tilt-based, but at the very least offering pointing, unlike the current remote (easily done--might happen)

* Apple allows 3rd-party apps on AppleTV, much like on the iPhone (possible at least)

So, take a whole TON of Xcode game developers, plus a somewhat-enhanced Apple TV, and what do you have? A game console!

But it's not competing with PS3 or Wii exactly. It would have some interesting things in common with the iPhone:

* Gaming is ONE thing it does, not the MAIN thing. Chicken-end-egg problem solved! People already own them--the market is there, so making games is no big risk. Therefore, all kinds of different people will have AppleTVs who are not "gamers" in their own minds but will buy games all the same.

* Much easier, cheaper, and more open development than the major consoles offer. One person or a small team can build a game for free. Try THAT with a traditional console platform!

* More emphasis on casual games--which are the biggest market. Hard core games cost a lot to make and risk failure if sales are disappointing. But those can certainly be made as well. Look at Wii to prove that having the top hardware specs isn't vital.

I can easily see this scenario happening--just don't make the mistake of thinking it will be the same kind of thing as a PS3 or Wii. It will be a DIFFERENT kind of thing. Just like an iPhone is different (with a whole different market) from a Blackberry or a Nintendo DS.

[MacRumorUser]

I've never even seen an NGage in the wild. Every store stopped carrying the games a good couple of years ago. It's pretty dead here...

I have one in a box doing nothing.... :o I wonder if they are worth anything on ebay :)

[Dagless]

first I'd like to remedy that quote. I meant to say sleek device and known name. For the record. :D

Not anti-known, just not known because they don't exist. But it's a product that's sold decent numbers, so it's already got a foothold. A lot better than trying to come out with ANOTHER line of products.

First, correct me if I'm wrong but does it not have bluetooth a/o IR capabilities? The wii uses IR just fine. No lagginess there. And it's worrying about motion sensors and all that too. And if it doesn't have wireless, either add it or do wires!
Nope! Data is transferred via BT, it just uses IR for the pointer functionality. The PS3 also uses BT, the 360 uses RF.

Apple TV doesn't have BT, the only way to connect it is via Lan, which is terrible when used as a game controller that requires zero lag. Wires+Motion controls don't work.

Second, even though it'll be a whole new platform for developers, that shouldn't be a problem either. Just use cocoa just like they do for the iphone and touch.

To a seasoned Mac dev, no, it wouldn't be hard. Thing is these devs haven't done a great job getting gaming BIG on a Mac to begin with (does not mean they're not good) so I doubt they're going to mac the iPhone/iPod Touch into the next DS.

The market was already full with Nintendo's offerings. Sony have done an incredible task doing as well as they have. Even with all that Sony branding and the PS1/PS2 popularity and PSP system power - it couldn't match the DS. But there they are. It needs a bloody brilliant series of devs who know exactly what they're doing that can make something as weak, and ugly (fat DS) do so very well. The same can be said for the console market too, 3 systems is overkill as it is.

I do want Monkey Ball on the iPhone though. Ohhh yes!

[diamond.g]

I don't think Apple will ever do a TV based gaming system again.

Why? Need games. To everyone that points to how the iPhone could spur that I would like them to revisit how well the Gamecube did even though the Gameboy/Advance/SP were available. Just cause the handheld is doing well doesn't mean the TV console will too.

The only other thing that I wonder about is multiplayer. How is Apple going to handle that? That is one place that Microsoft did a very good job. Sony is still playing catchup.

I do think Apple will do fine with iPhone gaming. We wont see gran turismo, or gears of war, or assassins creed. But we should see puzzle games and things like super monkey ball. Controls are the biggest problem. It has been a really recent thing for peripherals to sell well. And usually that is due to them being bundled with the game (see rock band and guitar hero). iPhone won't get that luxury. So developers wont ever be able to rely on that form of input. So games that need it (think FPS/TPS) and cannot work without it just wont be made.

The final thing that concerns me is the current iTunes process. You buy stuff and that is it. Sure Apple keeps a record of what you buy, but if you ever lose it you are pretty much SOL (yes there are times they will bend the rules but don't always count on it). Some cite, backing up your computer and you wont have to worry about that, this is true. But Apple could also work the licenses to allow continual downloads of stuff that you have already purchased. That way if something were to happen during a download you could just go back and redownload the affected stuff. Or you wouldn't have to worry about backing up the software cause Apple will always host it (we hope).

[nagromme]

I don't think Apple will ever do a TV based gaming system again.

Why? Need games. To everyone that points to how the iPhone could spur that I would like them to revisit how well the Gamecube did even though the Gameboy/Advance/SP were available. Just cause the handheld is doing well doesn't mean the TV console will too.

Not the same situation at all. This would be a NEW situation, not seen before. (Besides, just because a handheld is doing well doesn't mean the console will FAIL, either.)

Two things in particular:

1. Xcode. A GREAT--and FREE--dev environment (unlike Nintendo's) and it would be the SAME environment for building both iPhone and AppleTV (or whatever) apps. All Apple devices run a form of OS X and all use Xcode. Developers love Xcode, and the leap from one Xcode platform to another is small.

2. AppleTV already sells without games, so it bypasses the chicken-and-egg console problem. A console with no games is a doorstop. An AppleTV with no games is a home movie and photo viewer :) Then add games when and if the time is right.

Just as the iPhone is not sold AS a game machine, an AppleTV isn't either--yet both could take off as game platforms in one possible future.

You're right that casual games would be more important than hard-core, and I think that would be true of AppleTV games just as it is for iPhone.

I do think Apple will do fine with iPhone gaming. We wont see gran turismo, or gears of war, or assassins creed.

But we will, apparently, see some warped version of BioShock :o

http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/iPhone/BioShock/news.asp?c=7016

[GFLPraxis]

2. AppleTV already sells without games, so it bypasses the chicken-and-egg console problem. A console with no games is a doorstop. An AppleTV with no games is a home movie and photo viewer :) Then add games when and if the time is right.

PS3 sells as a Blu-ray player and media streamer as well.


You're right that casual games would be more important than hard-core, and I think that would be true of AppleTV games just as it is for iPhone.


You're mistaken as far as market share goes. Casual games are more important for the extra profit after the fact, but no one buys gaming hardware for the casual games. They buy it for the triple A titles, then after they've played them they buy casual games to keep them occupied and the casual devs rake in tons of money.


But we will, apparently, see some warped version of BioShock :o

http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/iPhone/BioShock/news.asp?c=7016[/QUOTE]


To your previous post:



* iPhone/iPod Touch platform takes off (done deal)

* Lots of game developers learn Xcode as a result (happening already)

* iPhone GAMING takes off (inevitable)

Great up till here. What do you consider gaming? Mom and pop downloading Bejewelled, or big name franchises from SEGA, Id, EA, Hudson, Natsume, Square Enix, etc.?

Because the latter is not inevitable, and the former will not give the platform any attention, just make some profit silently.



* AppleTV's hardware specs will improve (a matter of time)

* Apple TV gains a new input device, maybe touch-based and/or tilt-based, but at the very least offering pointing, unlike the current remote (easily done--might happen)

Requires that the new model have Bluetooth, and alienates the entire existing market base. People who bought an AppleTV as a media streamer are NOT going to rebuy the AppleTV for gaming capabilities as an extra unless there's strong developer...which there won't be unless the market is proven. Chicken and egg.


* More emphasis on casual games--which are the biggest market. Hard core games cost a lot to make and risk failure if sales are disappointing. But those can certainly be made as well. Look at Wii to prove that having the top hardware specs isn't vital.

Problem is that casual games don't attract buyers. People buy casual games after they own the hardware, but its the hardcore games that attract the initial purchase.


* Gaming is ONE thing it does, not the MAIN thing. Chicken-end-egg problem solved! People already own them--the market is there, so making games is no big risk. Therefore, all kinds of different people will have AppleTVs who are not "gamers" in their own minds but will buy games all the same.

Chicken and egg problem NOT solved, since you're requiring everyone buy a new model AppleTV with bluetooth and better GPU in this scenario.

[Ja Di ksw]

This thread should not exist.

[nagromme]

PS3 sells as a Blu-ray player and media streamer as well.

But it's a game machine FIRST, primarily marketed and bought as such. AppleTV is a media player first.

You're mistaken as far as market share goes. Casual games are more important for the extra profit after the fact, but no one buys gaming hardware for the casual games.

I'm not mistaken--I have involvement with the games industry, and casual games offer the most profit and least risk... but not on closed platforms like the traditional consoles, where the barrier to becoming a developer is high. Note the emphasis I added to your quote: AppleTV (or its descendent) would not, I predict, be "gaming hardware" first. So buying habits you learn from consoles don't apply. As I've said, if Apple does this, it won't be just "another console," it will be a whole different situation.

Great up till here. What do you consider gaming? Mom and pop downloading Bejewelled, or big name franchises from SEGA, Id, EA, Hudson, Natsume, Square Enix, etc.?

Because the latter is not inevitable, and the former will not give the platform any attention, just make some profit silently.

Ah--I see you're coming from a narrow, traditonal console viewpoint. The latter is what game magazines focus on. Stuff that sells to young males who are the most critical group and the most likely to pirate and cheat! But big money is in the former, and more people buy the former. Both, obviously, are considered "gaming." The former is what is an inevitable success on iPhone. And there's even a common ground in the middle--look at Wii titles, (and even World of Warcraft which has a huge segment of middle-age and female customers). In that same middle ground on iPhone (and someday maybe AppleTV) you have 3D titles like Super Monkey Ball and Cro-Mag Rally. They're not Sudoku, but they're not Crysis either. Casual gamers will play them, but others will too.

I'd also say that innovation happens a lot faster in smaller or casual titles. There are a ton of copycats, but that's not all there is. Because the risk of building a small title is lower than building a AAA title, and because one person or a small team can make their game happen.

Requires that the new model have Bluetooth, and alienates the entire existing market base. People who bought an AppleTV as a media streamer are NOT going to rebuy the AppleTV for gaming capabilities as an extra unless there's strong developer...which there won't be unless the market is proven. Chicken and egg.

None of this is going to happen this summer, or any time in the near future. It's the kind of thing that could happen (I never said will, I said COULD) in the years ahead. New models of AppleTV WILL come. Previous users may feel "alienated" but it will come. It COULD, at some point, include a better controller. Which, if you fear for existing users, could be sold to them with a USB bluetooth dongle. But I see AppleTV 2 (or whatever) not being games-compatible with old AppleTV (because it will have a better GPU), and I see games NOT arriving en masse at launch, but after Apple TV 2 (or whatever) has established itself further. (That establishment in itself is not a sure bet--and I don't claim it to be.)

Meanwhile, the developers will already exist--on Xcode for iPhone.

Problem is that casual games don't attract buyers. People buy casual games after they own the hardware, but its the hardcore games that attract the initial purchase.

Now we are on the same page :) Except with AppleTV, it wouldn't be hardcore games attracting purchasers, it would be movies. Casual games would come second--just like with the iPhone where phone calls and Internet come first.

Chicken and egg problem NOT solved, since you're requiring everyone buy a new model AppleTV with bluetooth and better GPU in this scenario.

No, not any more than every iPod owner is required to get an iPhone. Yet some will--new models WILL come along--and the platform can take off with time. Not, as I say, this summer, but in the years ahead it is very possible.

People discussing the potential for an Apple console and assuming that means the PS3/Wii/Xbox business model are looking in the wrong direction, I feel.

I see it as very possible that the "casual games" that a tiny segment of the public look down on may take off on AppleTV. That doesn't mean "beating" any other console--I doubt that will happen nor that Apple would care. It means adding a successful new direction to what AppleTV already is.

[diamond.g]

So it if it isn't taking the Wii/PS3/360 route then why even call it a console in the gaming sense? I mean we don't call computers consoles.

The casual gamers market is huge. Nintendo has proved that. But Nintendo only does games. Their systems don't do anything else. Apple needs some kick butt titles to show up on the OS X platform (iPhone/AppleTV). Nintendo is freaking Nintendo, they don't need 3rd party devs to be successful. If you notice all of the mainstream game machines have 1st party games that they rely on to get people interested (initially) in their systems. Apple will probably need that in order to attract people, otherwise you will just get ports of existing games with "waggle" just tacked on. <-- Wii syndrome...

[whooleytoo]

Problem is that casual games don't attract buyers. People buy casual games after they own the hardware, but its the hardcore games that attract the initial purchase.

That's hardly the case with the Wii & DS - aren't Nintendo sales pretty much driven now by casual gaming?

[Dagless]

That's hardly the case with the Wii & DS - aren't Nintendo sales pretty much driven now by casual gaming?

Going off Brawl being top of the UK sales charts and Mario Kart still in there, and above MGS4 - I'm going to say "no".

[nagromme]

So it if it isn't taking the Wii/PS3/360 route then why even call it a console in the gaming sense? I mean we don't call computers consoles.

Call it whatever you like :) But an AppleTV hooks to a TV, is used from the living room couch and--potentially--make come to play games. I think if there's an answer to the OP's question, AppleTV (in some future incarnation) will be it.

(You don't have to call an iPhone a gaming handheld, or a PDA, or a GPS, or a media player, but it still serves those functions in addition to being a phone.)

[whooleytoo]

Going off Brawl being top of the UK sales charts and Mario Kart still in there, and above MGS4 - I'm going to say "no".

I think you and I have EXTREMELY different ideas of what constitutes hardcore gaming, my friend. :)

I can easily picture a few friends at a party picking up Mario Kart, or Brawl for a laugh, even if they're not really into gaming at all. But MGS4? Err... no.

[Dagless]

So you're now saying Brawl is a casual game?

[nagromme]

A lot of Wii games fall into that middle zone between casual and Halo. Just as the Wii didn't follow the same path as other consoles, Apple's presence in the console market, if any, will be even LESS traditional.

[whooleytoo]

So you're now saying Brawl is a casual game?

Not sure, I haven't played it. :) But if it is a "pick up and play" game, then yes, I'd consider it a casual game. If not, no.

Overall, I think it's telling that the Wii and DS, the two gaming platforms with the greatest appeal to 'softcore'/casual gamers, are the two leading in sales.

[pcypert]

Different people mean different things with hardcore. For me Brawl and Mario Kart aren't hardcore but are deep games. They're accessible to a very large population of players and people with widely different wants from gaming. A "hardcore" game for me is one that is complex, and possibly has a story or some other element that might turn off most players. Also one where you'd need to spend a lot of time to feel you've accomplished things...

Anyways, I wouldn't call either of those games hardcore. They're not party games, but not hardcore either. There are some "kiddie" looking hardcore games too, so it's not just about space marines here :D For me some of the scrolling shooters are the best example of hard core.

[liquidh2o]

iphone/ipod touch work nicely for games... then there's Apple's line of desktops/laptops for other games. That covers a pretty large spectrum of games, don't see how an Apple console would gain a large following.

[GFLPraxis]

I think you and I have EXTREMELY different ideas of what constitutes hardcore gaming, my friend. :)

I can easily picture a few friends at a party picking up Mario Kart, or Brawl for a laugh, even if they're not really into gaming at all. But MGS4? Err... no.

0_o

Have you SEEN Brawl's tournament scene in the US? It's gigantic. There's tournaments held in almost every major city in the US, the game has a complex and very deep metagame with all kinds of intricacies that only the advantaced players know, etc. I went to a tournament earlier this week here in WA and I'm going to another tournament in California this Saturday. There's a large tournament with over $1000 in payouts being hosted at a lodge in Oregon on July 19th.

If you think Brawl is not a deep game, you are simply ignorant of it and its enormous community.


Overall, I think it's telling that the Wii and DS, the two gaming platforms with the greatest appeal to 'softcore'/casual gamers, are the two leading in sales.

It's entirely true that the Wii and DS are selling more and do have an emphasis on casuals, but they are also being heavily driven by the existing fanbase who purchases the major titles.

[GFLPraxis]

Now we are on the same page :) Except with AppleTV, it wouldn't be hardcore games attracting purchasers, it would be movies. Casual games would come second--just like with the iPhone where phone calls and Internet come first.

...

No, not any more than every iPod owner is required to get an iPhone. Yet some will--new models WILL come along--and the platform can take off with time. Not, as I say, this summer, but in the years ahead it is very possible.

People discussing the potential for an Apple console and assuming that means the PS3/Wii/Xbox business model are looking in the wrong direction, I feel.

I see it as very possible that the "casual games" that a tiny segment of the public look down on may take off on AppleTV. That doesn't mean "beating" any other console--I doubt that will happen nor that Apple would care. It means adding a successful new direction to what AppleTV already is.

Okay, so I see what you're coming from. See, the idea behind the OP in this thread was the idea of Apple releasing a gaming console with big name titles and big name developers.

What you are suggesting is that Apple will, in three or four years, start selling little casual minigames on the AppleTV, but will never have AAA titles like Halo, and might actually attract a sizable developer base with small apps in that vein, and would make a notable profit off of such microtransactions.

I entirely agree with that assessment, in that case. Seems like we were simply misunderstanding each other :)

[nagromme]

Yeah, I was following up on a post in the middle where I talked about AppleTV. A traditional-style AAA console? You're right--ain't happening!