Potential French legislation = Religious Persecution?

[Awimoway]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/17/france.headscarves/index.html

Can someone tell me how this is NOT religious persecution? I don't get it. Since when is a scarf offensive? Isn't it more offensive to make someone take it off when it is important to their religion to wear it? Why is that the French always have a knack for turning good things like democracy and freedom of religion on its head and perverting it into something really distorted?

[LethalWolfe]

Yeah, that's a load of crap.


Lethal

[zimv20]

agreed. it's lame.

[skunk]

Are they going to apply this to Sikhs and Jews and Gypsies? Head-coverings in Church? Hats at funerals? If not, why not? :confused:
As for turning democracy on its head, the words "pot", "kettle" and "black" spring to mind....:)

[mactastic]

Wow, that's really off the deep end. I'm all for secularity in government and all, but not for telling people what they can wear. AFAIK, he would be asking people to go against the teachings of their faith by asking muslim women to go without a scarf, or an orthodox jew with his skullcap.

Doesn't Chirac know that persecuting religious believers makes them more sure they are right and he is wrong?

[huntsman]

On the flip side, perhaps they should ban figure-hugging, skin-exposing clothing that could be construed as sexually suggestive, and therefore offensive to some people.

But that won't happen, of course. This looks like the tyranny of the majority.

[ckwm]

Seems like secular fundamentalism to me - you will only wear what religious symbols the state says you can.

[Awimoway]

Originally posted by skunk
As for turning democracy on its head, the words "pot", "kettle" and "black" spring to mind....:)

With reference to my state or my country? If state, okay, fair enough. If country, will you "chaps" get over it? That was 220 years ago! :D

[patrick0brien]

-Gents

This is bureaucracy - French flavored.

These are the same fellows who look down their noses at the U.S. in one breath, then turn around and buy Levi's, invest in McDonald's, and encourage Disney to build a theme park.

I'm not worried :D

[mactastic]

Neither am I. We look down our noses at the French, call our potatoes "Freedom Fries" yet still buy French wines, fashions, etc.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Awimoway
Why is that the French always...

Interesting.

You've gone and used the Chirac administration's foolish decision that seems to attack ethnic groups (Muslims, Jews, etc.) and used it to attack an ethnic group ("the French").

I think that fills the irony quota for the PolWar forums today.

[Awimoway]

And you our morally superior quota.

Look, I'm not a major France-basher. I even oppose(d) the war.

But I'll be frank. I don't understand them. I think the way they handled the UN deliberations last year was disingenuous and mean-spirited. Again, that was Chirac at work. Everyone wants to blame Bush for the unilateral war, but I think Chirac's tactics provoked Bush to some degree, no matter how wrong the war is.

But leaders are figureheads for their countries. That's how democracy works. That's why all the crap the rest of the world is slinging at us is somewhat deserved because Bush won the election, and he's our figurehead.

...Oh wait, he didn't win the election. :rolleyes:

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Awimoway
And you our morally superior quota.

Look, I'm not a major France-basher. I even oppose(d) the war.

But I'll be frank. I don't understand them. I think the way they handled the UN deliberations last year was disingenuous and mean-spirited. Again, that was Chirac at work. Everyone wants to blame Bush for the unilateral war, but I think Chirac's tactics provoked Bush to some degree, no matter how wrong the war is.

But leaders are figureheads for their countries. That's how democracy works. That's why all the crap the rest of the world is slinging at us is somewhat deserved because Bush won the election, and he's our figurehead.

...Oh wait, he didn't win the election. :rolleyes:

If you recognise that it's Chirac and not "the French," then why continue to attack the French people for the actions of their leader? If your beef is with Chirac, blame him. Break the mould.

I don't like it when people attack Americans for something Bush did either.

[Awimoway]

But what I'm saying is that in a democracy, there is at least an ounce of truth in blaming the nation as a whole.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Awimoway
But what I'm saying is that in a democracy, there is at least an ounce of truth in blaming the nation as a whole.

Does that make it right? It's a little disingenous, IMO. No one's blaming Americans for say, Nixon's actions during Watergate.

[Awimoway]

It does after the next round of elections.

[Ugg]

France has a very large population of Muslims and it is only recently that the wearing of headscarves has become an issue. Probably because there is an upsurge in "Muslim Pride" and Muslims feel they need to assert themselves to be heard.

I'm all for embracing ethnice and cultural traditions but the fact of the matter is that the wearing of religious symbols in schools, anywhere in the world almost always causes problems.

While everyone here is trouncing Chirac, maybe you'd better take a look at the political ads the Swiss right used in the last elections or the dominance of Le Pen in France, Scandinavia's uneasiness with its new citizens from Muslim and African countries. Or, for that matter, the US attitude towards incoming grad students from Muslim countries. It's not just a problem with Chirac but with every single western country whose birth rate is falling while the Muslim segment of the population is rising dramatically.

If western countries don't explicitly state that religion has no place in public life then the battle between religions will only accelerate. The line between zenophobia and an immigrant's expectations is a very fine one but isn't that an integral part of immigration, leaving the worst of the old behind?

[Inu]

I am (once more) in complete agreement with pseudobrit here, and want to point out the facts ugg posted. France does indeed have very difficult to solve problems at hand (like anti-semitic actions from the muslim part of the poplulation (wich is on the rise alright)) and you might not have heard that, or at least not without filter (aka: spin).

I do remind you to aks yourself: what would your average Head-Scarf wearing Muslim from france face when he tries to travel to the US? Being bearded and named Achmed might get you to Guatanamo. Having Fatima taking off her Scarf in School is like candy compared to that...

edit: heard, not heart

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by zimv20
agreed. it's lame. we dont agree to often, but on this one im with you zimv20

[IJ Reilly]

The political back-story on this is Chirac's efforts to inoculate himself and his party from the French nationalists, who are expected to gain in the next election. I'm not saying this action was the right way to address this situation, but it should be understood within the broader context of growing xenophobia in Europe and especially in France.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
growing xenophobia in Europe and especially in France.

-IJ Reilly

Xenophobic? France?!?!

Never! :D

[revenuee]

Democracy is doomed to fail

we're already starting to see it