If Apple made a car what would it look like!

[simie]

Photoshop challenge

I was thinking this morning, if Apple went into making cars what would they design.

The challenge is to design a car, either external view or internal looking at the dashboard.

Obviously the dashboard would be computerized.

Lets see what we can create on this thread.

This is for fun only, and to pass on hints and tips to other members on the forum. Only one entry per member and constructive criticisms please.

[Fuchal]

Uses G3 for speed :D :D :D :D :D :D

http://h4xr.org/e1p6

[IgnatiusTheKing]

http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/full/TorqueOmata4685.jpg

[Cougarcat]

http://www.aptera.com/images/home1.jpg
(The Aptera (http://www.aptera.com))

[flyinmac]

Well, you know they would make them like they do their iPods...

So, of course, before you even removed the car from it's packaging (yes, it would be wrapped to prevent damage to it's delicate finish before you purchased it), you would have to purchase the new Belkin iCar cover (shown below). Be sure to install within second of unwrapping your new iCar.

Naturally, you would have just enough of the iCar's window exposed so you could see where you were going. But, it would be vinyl covered to prevent scratching the delicate window material. So that your statement won't be missed, Belkin provides an Apple-Shaped transparent window cover for you to look through as you drive.

Whatever you do, don't touch or breath on the car before the protective cover is installed.

Revision 2 of the iCar will have a metallic paint finish. But, will still have delicate windows.

Revision 3 of the iCar will will also have the tougher painted surface. But, in addition to needing window protection, you'll have to be sure to cover the undercarriage because it will be a soft glossy metallic finish that will scuff the first time you move it an inch.

Best practice through all three revisions will be to install the Belkin iCar cover.

If you do decide that you would actually like to see what your new iCar looks like, you might opt for the iCar Invisible Shield (not shown). This will allow you to see your car. It will go on with a huge squeegee. And, resembles tough saran wrap. Be sure you get all the air bubbles out as you smooth it on there.

One benefit of the car covers, is that you can pick a different color every day of the week. Just buy the multi-packs of iCar neoprene covers (not pictured), and you can feel like you're driving a different car every day.

Please use caution when you are installing new iCar covers. The installation and removal of iCar covers does present the likely possibility of damaging your iCar's delicate surface.

For the ultimate in protection, you should install the iCar Invisible Shield first. Then, your Belkin or Neoprene iCar Covers. The Invisible Shield will protect your iCar while you change out your tougher external iCar covers.

[MacGromit]

Well, you know they would make them like they do their iPods...

So, of course, before you even removed the car from it's packaging (yes, it would be wrapped to prevent damage to it's delicate finish before you purchased it), you would have to purchase the new Belkin iCar cover (shown below). Be sure to install within second of unwrapping your new iCar.


"It's sad because it's true." (Karen from Will and Grace)

Your post is hysterically but sadly true.

[mikes63737]

The real question is: Will they make iCar socks?

[Emulsion]

http://www.autovade.com/guide/volkswagen/images/2006-volkswagen-jetta.jpg

[Sun Baked]

I'd rather think they'd build the ....

www.teslamotors.com

New fuel source, expensive, etc.

[amiga]

Maybe a little like this?

http://www.astonmartin.com/eng/thecars/db9

[MrSmith]

Maybe a little like this?
The only cars that can put me in procreation mode.

[flyinmac]

"It's sad because it's true." (Karen from Will and Grace)

Your post is hysterically but sadly true.


Yes, Apple is the only company who could boast about the large number of 3rd party products available to protect their products.

It is quite sad.

[wheezy]

Two Volkswagon's on here? Are you serious? Ewww

[Pixellated]

Two Volkswagon's on here? Are you serious? Ewww

Apple previously attempted collaboration with VW to make an 'iCar'.

[pigbat]

Two Volkswagon's on here? Are you serious? Ewww

VW makes a solid, fun car.

[Sun Baked]

VW makes a solid, fun car.

Yes, but even though the TDI are state of the art, they are all still ICE powered vehicles.

At least AC Propulsion's powertrain in the Tesla is next generation. And more in keeping with Apple's think different.

With PCs the SW is the key, in cars it is still the HW that still matters.

[tsice19]

Well, if they made an iCar, it would integrate really well with all your other Apple products (iPod, iPhone, MacBook, etc;)

It would work great, but it would have to run on special iFuel and it would only drive on an iRoad.

[alphaod]

Uses G3 for speed :D :D :D :D :D :D

http://h4xr.org/e1p6

Those have a crazy turn radius! :p

[brad.c]

Without reaching for Photoshop to simulate, I would imagine the iCar would only have a single pedal.

Go = press pedal, stop = control+press pedal.

Also incorporates gestures. Two finger scroll to pass, one finger to salute.

[ErikCLDR]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1408/1130186669_5764269a38.jpg

[tominated]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1408/1130186669_5764269a38.jpg

those are awesome. weren't they on top gear once?

[LeviG]

^^ yes JC drove it inside the BBC offices iirc.

Anyways here's my iCar :cool:

PS - read the text

[MvdM]

And of course the steering wheel will be replaced by a clickwheel :) And the battery cannot be replaced by the user.

[MiniLifeCrisis]

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2007_06/GDB01.jpg

You guys draw up the iCars, I'll get everyone together to wait in the long line the night before the iCar is released only to find out it's got a "little glitch" and it will be another hour or two before they can drive it away. :eek::D

[dacreativeguy]

BMW is the Apple of car companies. The current 3 series coupe is to die for. The 5 series sedan is a close second. If only they weren't so damn expensive.

[nplima]

Don't know about the exterior, but that iCar's dashboard would be white and look very plain, with 3 or 4 commands on the wheel and nothing else :)

[ezekielrage_99]

^^ yes JC drove it inside the BBC offices iirc.

Anyways here's my iCar :cool:

PS - read the text

Well if they were going for crap quality then Holden would be a great choice.

[flyinmac]

Well if they were going for crap quality then Holden would be a great choice.

Naw, that would be too high end for Apple.

Rather, Apple would sell something more like the Delorean.

Something they could sell for a premium. Claim it was the highest end, and yet constantly break down.

The difference, if Apple built something like the Delorean, it's foundation would actually be based on a family station wagon, but claim it's underpinnings were actually derived from Formula 1 race cars.

Basically, the equivalent of a Lamborghini with a Yugo power plant and suspension.

Pretty, expensive looking, and yet dirt cheap to make.

[ezekielrage_99]

Naw, that would be too high end for Apple.

Rather, Apple would sell something more like the Delorean.

Something they could sell for a premium. Claim it was the highest end, and yet constantly break down.

The difference, if Apple built something like the Delorean, it's foundation would actually be based on a family station wagon, but claim it's underpinnings were actually derived from Formula 1 race cars.

Basically, the equivalent of a Lamborghini with a Yugo power plant and suspension.

Pretty, expensive looking, and yet dirt cheap to make.

You have obviously never bought a Holden Statesman.....

$AUD75k for rubbish, crap build, crap quality, crap design, crap warranty, the crap list for Holden goes on....

[flyinmac]

You have obviously never bought a Holden Statesman.....

$AUD75k for rubbish, crap build, crap quality, crap design, crap warranty, the crap list for Holden goes on....

Over here, they call them General Motors.

Basically, the same cars. Except you guys in Australia get to keep purchasing the good ones that they discontinued over here.

I've had quite a lot of General Motors cars. Unfortunately, the only ones ever worth buying are now only available as Holden's in Australia.

They are actually working on bringing more General Motors models back by rebranding the Holdens as GM / Chevrolet / Pontiac cars.

Only, over here, they bring us a Holden, and throw a hugely popular name from the 60's on it (as in car model names that we all loved and were hugely popular) and hope we'll buy it out of nostalgia.

[ezekielrage_99]

Over here, they call them General Motors.

Basically, the same cars. Except you guys in Australia get to keep purchasing the good ones that they discontinued over here.

I've had quite a lot of General Motors cars. Unfortunately, the only ones ever worth buying are now only available as Holden's in Australia.

They are actually working on bringing more General Motors models back by rebranding the Holdens as GM / Chevrolet / Pontiac cars.

Only, over here, they bring us a Holden, and throw a hugely popular name from the 60's on it (as in car model names that we all loved and were hugely popular) and hope we'll buy it out of nostalgia.

The Australian built Holdens are just plain bad. The GM engineered ones and some of the Opel ones aren't too bad, but I still would never waste my money on them.

[LeviG]

Mine wasn't really focused on the car design rather the requirements for using it, maybe it went a little over the head of a few people :rolleyes:

[qtpie36963]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2162/2700081104_85aedc0078_o.jpg

Touch Screen Dashboard anyone?

[flyinmac]

Unfortunately, the 1.1 update would cause problems with the airbags....

Users of the same car, same revision, would experience one of the following (depending on their luck):

Either:

a) The airbag would fail to deploy when needed

or

b) The airbag would deploy immediately

or

c) The airbag would constantly deploy, suck itself in, and redeploy (smacking you in the head constantly)

But, the good news is that it wouldn't affect everyone. So, while you're in the hospital recovering from your injuries, the Apple loyal (at least those who have not been affected) would belittle you and insist you were lying. They'd insist it was impossible and that you're making it up.

That is, until theirs smacks them in the head as well.

Of course, all that could be avoided by making sure you've fully repaired permissions, and not installed any accessories that didn't come from Apple.

Now, if Apple releases a firmware update... Well... Then you're on your own. Good luck. Either the speakers will start emitting some weird noise, or the engine's cooling fan will rev at ridiculous rates (or worse... stop spinning altogether).

The good news, is that people will mistake the fan noise for engine noise, and think you've got one incredible power plant under the hood.

[GSMiller]

The Isetta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta).

:apple: is all about unconventional designs!

[n8mac]

One things for sure. If it had Windows, they would be going up and down all the time!

[n8mac]

:d

[PowerFullMac]

The VW Space Up! (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/16/is-the-vw-space-up-interface-developed-by-apple/)

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/11/spaceupblue_hi25_440.jpg
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/11/vw_space-up-blue38_jackjohnson.jpg

[chuckiehina]

Here a a few from http://car-of-future.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default that say iCar to me.

[vga4life]

I think it was leaked on SNL a few years ago.

http://saladwithsteve.com/agcar.gif

Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

[Krebstar]

Most likely just a white sphere that rolls around.

[flyinmac]

Most likely just a white sphere that rolls around.

So, that would make us gerbils??? :D

[vixapphire]

Apple previously attempted collaboration with VW to make an 'iCar'.

should've called it the "wankar":D

[vixapphire]

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2007_06/GDB01.jpg

You guys draw up the iCars, I'll get everyone together to wait in the long line the night before the iCar is released only to find out it's got a "little glitch" and it will be another hour or two before they can drive it away. :eek::D

everyone in that photo has an awful haircut and is in sore need of haberdashery advice. wtf, apple fanboyz?!!!

[Rhosfelt]

http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/06/17/oh-lord-wont-you-buy-me-an-apple-powered-mercedes-benz/


/Win

[Drifte]

very funny stuff. I once asked myself "what if mac made a motorcycle?"
I based this one off the Buell. Although I figure mac would use electric motors...and probably the color white or raw aluminum.
http://photos-238.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v309/95/72/71802238/n71802238_32084645_7644.jpg

[flyinmac]

everyone in that photo has an awful haircut and is in sore need of haberdashery advice. wtf, apple fanboyz?!!!

What surprises you there????

Only die hard nerds who spend their life at the computer would show up in droves and spend hours or days in a line to be the first to get a new Apple gadget.

And you expect them to be well groomed :confused:

Why would they put much effort into their appearance???? When are they going to see a woman???

[fredsarran]

Apple would not make a car or iCar ;) but something even better.

[Silver-Fox]

everyone in that photo has an awful haircut and is in sore need of haberdashery advice. wtf, apple fanboyz?!!!

Exactly, nerds, nerds and more nerds.

Gotta hate the fan boys

[Tom B.]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2162/2700081104_85aedc0078_o.jpg

Touch Screen Dashboard anyone?

Ewww, Apple would never make a car with wood on the dashboard. There is nothing more awful than that.


Anyway, I would hope that an Apple-designed car would resemble a BMW, however simpler in appearance. I also believe that Apple would refrain from using non-renewable energy sources to power their vehicles.

http://www.tuningnews.net/news/071112a/ac_schnitzer_bmw_m3.jpg

Not that I think Apple will ever start making cars, though.

[MagicWok]

BMW is the Apple of car companies. The current 3 series coupe is to die for. The 5 series sedan is a close second. If only they weren't so damn expensive.

Matter of perspective... To me, BMW's are the most boring, overpriced p.o.s. cars you can stand to buy. The fact that BMW's are all known to be driven by morons just proves my point as to why anyone sane would want to buy one.

But as Jezza pointed out on TG - it's true that alot have migrated over to Audi's now. Central is full of them.

[nick9191]

I could certainly imagine Apple designing the onboard computer for a car, with a touch screen iPhone like interface. Of course running mobile OS X. That would be orgasmic.

Once you drove it to your house, it could sync with iTunes over wifi. It would have 3G for mobile browsing. And of course some twat would jailbreak it, causing it to brick in the middle of the journey, crashing the car into a wall.

[qtpie36963]

Ewww, Apple would never make a car with wood on the dashboard. There is nothing more awful than that.



Well Ofcourse It wouldn't be wood... it's just the default that was with the car.. i would imagine it would be aluminum or white. Thanks for that btw

[zsft]

BMW is the Apple of car companies. The current 3 series coupe is to die for. The 5 series sedan is a close second. If only they weren't so damn expensive.

Eh...not really. If anything it's the other way around, Apple "trying" to be the BMW of car companies. People don't go "wow!" when they see an Apple computer. They might be like, "oh, nice"...but that's it. Every petrolhead admits the BMW is one of the leaders in car manufacturing...not Apple.

If you really want a match up in the automobile industry, I'd give it an Audi at most. Decent performance, but then the timing belt snaps and your engine dies 30,000 miles before checkup haha.

[udamangum94]

If Apple made an iCar I think this is what it would look like. (Or MacLife thinks what it would look like).
http://dl.maclife.com/1126_icar_inter_credit_700.jpg

http://dl.maclife.com/1126_icar_front_credit_1200.jpg

http://dl.maclife.com/1126_icar_profile_credit_1200.jpg

Thanks to MacLife for those images.

[bigmanathome24]

this is what apple might partner with, maybe if they were on drugs or somthing:
http://media.carlosbutler.com/forums/macrumours/cars/Pagani_Zonda_F_32_2.jpg

http://media.carlosbutler.com/forums/macrumours/cars/Pagani-Zonda-S-73-Interior-1280x960.jpg

but more probably is this:
http://media.carlosbutler.com/forums/macrumours/cars/AMA803242%25201024x768_1e36bc69-fbc5-4bbe-8d09-d6723d67ae62.jpg

just listen (http://media.carlosbutler.com/forums/macrumours/cars/db9_fbabaa60-02a3-40ca-8e70-3a864ee7fd7d.mp3) to it, not only is it pretty fast but it turns like a car should, not like those great big crappy muscle cars :p

[carlgo]

Well, if they made an iCar, it would integrate really well with all your other Apple products (iPod, iPhone, MacBook, etc;)

It would work great, but it would have to run on special iFuel and it would only drive on an iRoad.

Also:
1. You would have to sign a 5-yr agreement to only use iFuel.
2. iFuel stations would be few and far apart. iCar effectively limited to trendy urban centers. Car will stall on any rural road.
3. iCars would be product-placed in every movie and tv series.
4. Car would be slow, but offer better user experience.
5. Power and fuel capacity can be updated, but only for extraordinary cost.
6. No radio or cd player. iTunes interface only, and only iTv for expensive optional rear seat entertainment system.
7. All upholstery made of hemp.
8. No non-Apple parts can be installed.
9. Car will be shipped without some common and expected feature, like maybe no air conditioner. Forums will furiously discuss this. Jobs will say it is not needed and only adds weight and decreases mileage. Years later, AC will suddenly appear on new model.
10. Only iTires will fit the 17.334 sized wheels.
11. Cars available in black for $2300 more.

[waffle911]

Apple would NOT make a car like a BMW. BMW's are ugly ever since Chris Bangle became BMW's to designer. Every one of his designs is a controversial mistake, and the 3 series came out looking relatively OK only because they had a leash tied tightly around his neck. Notice the M1 concept looks pretty fine, but then look closer and find that Bangle had no hand in penning it.

Bangle started the unfortunate trend in recent years of over-styling cars, making them look busy and formless. His problem is that he has too many contradicting lines clamoring for attention. The new Acura's re too busy looking because VW made their very pleasantly simple cars very cluttered as well. Lexus hopped on the gravy train well before that. Mercedes all look like alien-designed formless blobs of putty and have absolutely no soul. They are making a comeback with the C class and CL class, though. But perhaps the best example of how BMW's look horrible are the cars made by Infiniti, which do their best to emulate BMW in every sense. They come pretty close to it.

Plus, iDrive? They ripped off the iApple trend but used it for something so user UN-friendly, it takes a teenager who can't afford a BMW to figure out how to do anything. BMW is Windows manifest. Not to mention, they aren't very reliable anymore. They get free maintenance for so-and-so many miles, but it costs a fortune to fix the simplest things. They also are some of the best-performing cars on the road, but they are fairly overpriced (like Vista).

Apple would make an iCar like the last generation of VW's. Great quality materials, simplistic, clean design, and good reliability. The new VWs use sub-par materials, are cluttered, boring, and completely average. Get in a Jetta, feel the door pull, and tell me that that doesn't feel like the kids' Little Tike's playhouse out in the back yard.

Sorry for the rant, but I've had a hell of a week, I'm a car geek and in that respect, I really miss 5 and 10 years ago. Mercedes looked good 10 years ago. BMW made cars that still looked good 10 years ago. Non-American cars used nicer materials 5 years ago.

Oh, and the Holden Commodore has hit the US as the Pontiac G8. No glory name of yesteryear, just plenty of V8 rear-wheel horsepower at a good price. Jeremy Clarkson takes it over a BMW 5 any day of the week, and the American motoring press is in love with it. It looks halfway decent too, until you step inside and it starts to look vaguely "blah." But for an Australian car, its not bad at all. Now when is the US going to get the Ford Falcon? Ford US is so desperate, they couldn't afFord to bring the new EU Focus to the states, instead replacing it with an inferior plastic toy.

Perhaps the best example of an Apple on the road is Saab circa 5 years ago.
Overpriced for less performance than a BMW, but very simple to operate (the switches are large, clearly marked, and well within the driver's reach in intuitive places), very clean but unconventional (and practical) design, had novel engineering that allowed a common GM chassis to drive completely differentley, fairly well-built, made with pretty good materials, and more reliable than Ikea's existence. But it can be expensive to fix should something occur.
(I drive one. Can you tell? :P)

[LeviG]

The new Acura's re too busy looking because VW made their very pleasantly simple cars very cluttered as well.

Last time I checked an acura was a honda which has nothing to do with VAG (the company behind vw etc) :confused:

[weg]

The challenge is to design a car, either external view or internal looking at the dashboard.


I don't know how it would look like, but

if you want your tyres changed, you'll have to bring it to an Apple approved garage
the first model would feature an exotic engine, which, according to Steve jobs, is much faster than the engines used in other cars...
when the Apple-car owners have pissed off all their neighbours with their permanent comments on how poor the engines in their non-Apple-cars are, Steve Jobs would suddenly announce that future Apple-cars will use standard engines, which are 2 times faster than the engines used in the original Apple-car model
the technology in the newer Apple-car models would come from other manufacturers, with Apple only designing the dashboard and the steering wheel
Apple would start building their own roads, claiming that the roads built by the state are not sufficiently optimised for the Apple-car

[waffle911]

Last time I checked an acura was a honda which has nothing to do with VAG (the company behind vw etc) :confused:

Do understand I had a long week, so please excuse my less than accurate sentence structure.

Yes, Acura is the luxury branch of Honda, which is in no way shape or form affiliated with Volkswagen AG.

Acuras became over-styled after VW followed suite with BMW and Mercedes, as opposed to Lexus (Toyota) and Infiniti (Nissan) who both jumped ship earlier on.

[simie]

Just googling icar comes up with some results.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/iCar1-done.jpg

http://image.motortrend.com/f/green/mitsubishi-working-on-electric-powered-version-of-i-minicar/6463367+w600+cr1+re0+ar1/mitsubishi-i-car-electric-prototype-detail.jpg

[waffle911]

^^^^ I think that second one is an electric Tata Nano prototype. Cheap as dirt and no amenities, that's not Apple's style.

I found these:

the elusive iCar prototype circa 1999:
http://francisanderson.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/icar.jpg

And the earlier Apple Car, designed by Richard Scary:
http://www.jeffpidgeon.com/uploaded_images/apple-car-727637.JPG

[Gretchin78]

What, you havent heard!!???

Well here is a sneak peek at their first ever car! =)

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/gretchin78/futuristic-car-peugeotcopy.jpg

[LERsince1991]

What, you havent heard!!???

Well here is a sneak peek at their first ever car! =)

snip

HAHA that's actually pretty cool, like a little room on wheels ;)
bet its the least safe car though, what about suspension, and most other things? :p

If apple were ever going to make cars they would team up with audi hands down! no competition.
They could make the iCar mini like a giant mighty mouse :P just like a Pod
Cant be bothered to go into the tech side since it'll basically be everything you've ever dreamed and more.
This looks pretty slick though (http://www.yankodesign.com/index.php/2008/06/10/bmw-no-more-dents-and-dings/), a sort of mesh material instead of the bodywork, How easy to steal an engine do they want to make it? zip down the bonnet, un-bolt and run :P

http://www.yankodesign.com/index.php/2008/06/10/bmw-no-more-dents-and-dings/

http://www.audi.co.uk/audi/uk/en2/experience/Studies/audi_rsq.html

I had a picture of what I seem to remember was an audi design exoskeleton sort of car, looked awesome but cant find the image :rolleyes:

[waffle911]

What, you havent heard!!???

Well here is a sneak peek at their first ever car! =)

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/gretchin78/futuristic-car-peugeotcopy.jpg

So it's a Peugeot...

inspired by Segway...

on two rail-thin tires...

with an upside-down Apple logo on the window of the Lamborghini-esque circle door? (Look through to the passenger side and you'll see what I mean)

Also, this design does have the potential to be safe.
A. You've got a sphere, a three-dimensional iteration of a circle, which, when cut in half, forms an arch, which was one of the earliest forms of advanced engineering (Romans) because under no reasonable circumstances should it ever cave under pressure.
B. All collision points hit the tire, or are close enough that a minor yield in the body will make the tire the primary impact absorber. Hitting dead on the tire is the safest way to crash, as is the Smart Car design philosophy. You are thereby hitting the primary opposing force directly in a collision rather than an appendage of the reactionary forces.

[Gretchin78]

So it's a Peugeot...

inspired by Segway...

on two rail-thin tires...

with an upside-down Apple logo on the window of the Lamborghini-esque circle door? (Look through to the passenger side and you'll see what I mean)



Ok ok, now I see how that door works. So my Apple is a bit off...

But it looks good! =)

Thanks for pointing out my flaws man!!!! ;)

[iParis]

If Apple made an iCar I think this is what it would look like. (Or MacLife thinks what it would look like).
http://dl.maclife.com/1126_icar_inter_credit_700.jpg

http://dl.maclife.com/1126_icar_front_credit_1200.jpg

http://dl.maclife.com/1126_icar_profile_credit_1200.jpg

Thanks to MacLife for those images.

I saw those on MacLife too.
There is a whole blog on iCar prototypes.
A lot of it is also about Apple working with Volkswage.
Here's the link: http://www.maclife.com/article/apple_hardware_prototypes_four_radical_new_concepts_revealed?page=0%2C4

[waffle911]

Ooh, I just noticed the fourth ring on the Audi grill!

[macsabi]

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/12/apple-flavored/

[bluetooth]

ftw

[LizKat]

Heck why don't they start by letting you color the fonts in your iTunes playlist names, so you can find the ones you're working on or were messing around with when your Mom called and said hey come jumpstart my car so I'm not late to work...

[iCantwait]

well it would have an underpowered engine and you would have to refill the tank every night, but the fan boys will defend it.

[Ljohnson72]

Aug 15, 2008 01:16 AM :)


This thread has cobwebs all over it...