PDA

View Full Version : Apple to Sell Software via Software Update?


MacRumors
Dec 20, 2003, 07:42 PM
Embedded in one of the configuration files of Panther's Software Update is evidence that Apple has planned for the implementation of a new feature for Software Update: Selling Software. In addition, it appears Apple also plans on offering discounts on the sales to current .Mac subscribers.

The Software Update's English.lproj Localizable.strings file includes the following messages:

A 1-Click account is required to purchase software.
To purchase software, you need an Apple account with 1-Click ordering enabled. If you don't have an Apple account, you can create one in just a few minutes by clicking Set Up.

Save ?? with a .Mac membership.
.Mac members enjoy free or discounted pricing on software. Click Set Up to make sure your member name and password are correct, or sign up for a .Mac membership. Click Continue if you don't want a .Mac membership now.

Longstanding rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/12/20031205111716.shtml) have hinted that Apple will be revamping Software Update to allow 3rd party developers to provide their own updates through the Apple utility. It's unclear if purchasable software would be limited to Apple's own selections or opened to 3rd party developers as well.

Full Path: /System/Library/CoreServices/Software Update.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj/Localizable.strings

alset
Dec 20, 2003, 07:45 PM
Extend the one-click system into every place you can, and you have a lot of happy customers emptying their wallets.

I'd use this as much as I use iTMS (very frequently).

Dan

btw - All those who say they don't get enough for their money with .Mac are insane. I LOVE what Apple is doing for my business.

Jerry Spoon
Dec 20, 2003, 07:47 PM
With download speeds on the rise, this makes sense to me. Save me a trip to the store and make it convenient. Just hope the interface is simple. Knowing Apple, it will be.

TomSmithMacEd
Dec 20, 2003, 07:55 PM
This sounds like a good idea, if they gave a discount to everyone. Just think how much cheaper it would be for them to not have to ship it.

Flowbee
Dec 20, 2003, 08:07 PM
Oooh... I want that $99 Final Cut Express deal, but I don't want to have to buy a new Mac to get it. Bring it on!

ITR 81
Dec 20, 2003, 08:07 PM
Sounds good to me.

KLFloyd
Dec 20, 2003, 08:15 PM
There would also need to be an easy way for users to make a backup copy of their downloaded software for when they need to reinstall. And Backup is not the solution. I've never had success with that program, Carbon Copy Cloner is far superior.

Other than that I'm all for it. I'd like to be getting a little more bang for my $99 .mac membership, right now my .mac email is really the only reason I keep it around as all my friends and family have that address.

Squire
Dec 20, 2003, 08:25 PM
Great idea. I agree that they'd need a good policy in cases where people lost their program, though. Probably just a serial number. Out of curiosity, I wonder how large the downloads would be. Would this apply to all programs or just the smaller ones?

I hope this service won't be limited to American customers. I'd love to get even more out of my .Mac membership.

Squire

Mr.Hey
Dec 20, 2003, 08:27 PM
S-UD allows you to download to the desktop instead of direct install; just take those files and burn them to CD-Rs.

aldo
Dec 20, 2003, 08:33 PM
Well lets hope they can do it internationally unlike pretty much every 'buy within the OS' feature in OSX. iPhoto, iTunes etc all are US only and Apple needs to fix this fast.

I hope that Apple also allows open source, free, tools to be sent over Software Update (but surely it will have a new name if it allows new software to be installed?). I doubt this though - Apple's policy on open-source seems to be 'only use if very necessary or we save serious money', however, they do contribute back so they are not too evil :P.

Powerbook G5
Dec 20, 2003, 08:38 PM
I just hope this doesn't make SWU a bloated mess.

Billicus
Dec 20, 2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I just hope this doesn't make SWU a bloated mess.

Exactly. Hopefully it'll just be a seperate tab for purchasing software rather than updating purchased software.

SoGood
Dec 20, 2003, 08:50 PM
This is just a logical extension of all existing infrastructure for Apple. Most expected.
Keep it up!

McToast
Dec 20, 2003, 08:52 PM
Horrible. Just wait till Apple starts charging for OS updates, QuickTime Updates, iApp updates....

Oh you think they won't? Remember iTools? Do ya?:rolleyes:

stingerman
Dec 20, 2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by KLFloyd
There would also need to be an easy way for users to make a backup copy of their downloaded software for when they need to reinstall. And Backup is not the solution. I've never had success with that program, Carbon Copy Cloner is far superior.

Other than that I'm all for it. I'd like to be getting a little more bang for my $99 .mac membership, right now my .mac email is really the only reason I keep it around as all my friends and family have that address.

There already is by means of Apple's Disk imaging technology already built in to OS X. Just take an image and burn it to a CD/DVD-R. Apple can of course put a nice Jukebox type interface on it and I'd suspect they would add their DRM authorization technology.

stingerman
Dec 20, 2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by McToast
Horrible. Just wait till Apple starts charging for OS updates, QuickTime Updates, iApp updates....

Oh you think they won't? Remember iTools? Do ya?:rolleyes:

They are talking about Apps you can currently buy in the Apple Store.

McToast
Dec 20, 2003, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by stingerman
They are talking about Apps you can currently buy in the Apple Store.

You mean they are currently talking about apps that you can currently buy in the Apple Store. :rolleyes:

latergator116
Dec 20, 2003, 09:19 PM
Sounds stupid to me. The software update is to update software, not to purchase software. If you want to buy software:a. make a seperate app to specificaly do that, or b: go to the store

dukemeiser
Dec 20, 2003, 09:19 PM
This would probably be in competition with services like Kagi. But I like the idea, and it would be a revenue source for Apple. They could take a cut of every copy of software they distribute.

Raiden
Dec 20, 2003, 09:28 PM
This has alot of promice.

I think it will be awesome. :)

mac15
Dec 20, 2003, 09:29 PM
McToast, I don't Apple would start charging for iTunes and Quicktime (yes they have QT pro but thats a feature update). Only major OS updates will be pay updates, not minor ones.

I think it'd be a great idea, bundle it in via webcore. And Apple certainly know how to hand out MBs. But I'm sure if this would increase piracy. Unless Apps sudden;y have DRMs :)

Mr.Hey
Dec 20, 2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by McToast
Horrible. Just wait till Apple starts charging for OS updates, QuickTime Updates, iApp updates....

Oh you think they won't? Remember iTools? Do ya?:rolleyes:


Oh I see how you came to this conclusion and although not entirely impossible I don't think this is what it means.

There are users who could use the efficiency of direct download rather then wait several days for it to arrive by snail-mail.

And in my opinion would be a great idea. Websites like versiontracker.com are fine but nothing like the ease of use of the one click system exactly like iTMS but for developers.

Powerbook G5
Dec 20, 2003, 09:36 PM
I think this should be a separate application or component and not SWU, though. Software Update is for updating system software, not an electronic retail store. It already does a fantastic job at what it is, so I don't want to see it being cluttered with extra features that aren't a part of what software update is there to accomplish. If Apple wants an Apple Store built into Mac OS X, that is great, but make it a separate entity and don't let it clutter something dedicated like SWU.

zim
Dec 20, 2003, 09:38 PM
I really like this idea, Macromedia currently offers the ability to purchase their software through their online store as a download. I wonder if our .mac accounts would serialize them? meaning that we would no longer have serial numbers because this would be a way for apple to control legal rights, if so, I hope that they allow instillation on 3 computers just like the music, which would mean altering their EUL.

bousozoku
Dec 20, 2003, 09:44 PM
Maybe this has something to do with the Purchase Mac OS X Software... Apple menu item that's been missing since Panther arrived. I only tried it once and I can't imagine anyone else using it much more than that.

While Software Update does not sound exactly like the proper place, it's also doesn't sound completely wrong either.

splashman
Dec 20, 2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Mr.Hey
S-UD allows you to download to the desktop instead of direct install; just take those files and burn them to CD-Rs.

I didn't know that was possible. How?

I see a check-box for "Download important updates in the background." Is that it?

I'd prefer to have all the updaters on my system, so I don't have to download a whole gaggle of updaters if I have to re-install the system.

i_wolf
Dec 20, 2003, 10:20 PM
personally i would prefer that they keep it separate to software update. I.E. they don't use software update to buy the software; They have a separate app to download and update non panther software purchased from apple store. On another note... call me completely paranoid.( your paranoid!) i don't believe in big brother! I don't like the idea of sending apple the details of every app i have installed even apps that i didn't purchase from apple that i purchased from 3rd parties. so that they can upload the updates to me. I know its silly, and completely illogical, but if that was the case i would prefer to download the updates manually and anonymously. For me this was one of the reasons that I try to leave MS behind. Don't like their big bro policy. Hopefully Apple would be able to implement this without the big bro worries this would cause me and other users.

paulypants
Dec 20, 2003, 10:28 PM
Horrible. Just wait till Apple starts charging for OS updates, QuickTime Updates, iApp updates....

Oh you think they won't? Remember iTools? Do ya?

lol I knew there would be one pessimist to accuse Apple of some update conspiracy

iTools an software updates are two very different things--so are upDATES and upGRADES

SFNE Freak
Dec 20, 2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by splashman
I didn't know that was possible. How?

I see a check-box for "Download important updates in the background." Is that it?

I'd prefer to have all the updaters on my system, so I don't have to download a whole gaggle of updaters if I have to re-install the system.
I believe its the option in the "Update" menu that says Download Only.

SeaFox
Dec 20, 2003, 10:34 PM
We need to look at the big picture in all this. Third party resellers are already complaining about current Apple policies concerning hardware sales and warranty repair policies. Would the ability to buy all our software from Apple's built-in service make them any happier?

The way these events fall into place, I'm beginning to wonder if Apple's trying to move complete control of the platform in-house and eleminate all third party involvement.

From what I've seen Apple is doing the best job exposing the public to the Macintosh platform via the Apple Stores. But Apple isn't putting Apple stores in every city a Macintosh reseller exists in now. Even if they do the best job, that doesn't mean I want them to be the only game in town. The way it stands right now if Apple stores were the only choice I had I'd have to drive over 300 miles to get ot one.

Also, with all the whooplah we've given Microsoft about embedding everything into the OS and the unfair advantage that gives them compared to competitors, I find it interesting people aren't associating Safari, iTunes (and QuickTime), and this new selling inititive as the same thing.

azdude
Dec 20, 2003, 10:57 PM
Hmm... Has this always been here!??!?!?!?

ITR 81
Dec 20, 2003, 10:58 PM
It's not the same as MS. Reason being is by allows 3rd party vendors which also include MS to sell it's product directly to Mac users and cut some over head out of it.

I know the reason Apple wants to do it because it will help generate more profits and allows them cut some overhead when selling their own products.

I could see the next upgrade of OS X selling via DL for only maybe $99-110.
While the boxed ver. goes for $129.

ITR 81
Dec 20, 2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by azdude
Hmm... Has this always been here!??!?!?!?

Do you have reg account or edu account?

I just checked mine and it's not listed as such but I do have edu account.

azdude
Dec 20, 2003, 11:05 PM
I qualify for individual edu purchases, but I don't think I have any special membership.

ITR 81
Dec 20, 2003, 11:45 PM
Maybe you've been picked to be some kinda of beta tester for this new service.

zim
Dec 20, 2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by azdude
Hmm... Has this always been here!??!?!?!?

I also have that option. Listed in that option was my Quick Time Pro key purchase. It also listed my Quick Time Pro registration number... wish I had known about that link back after I had installed os 10.3 from a clean install.

azdude
Dec 20, 2003, 11:56 PM
Yeah the license key section makes perfect sense... but they are not covert in calling it "Software DOWNLOAD Purchases." Odd.

akac
Dec 21, 2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by McToast
Horrible. Just wait till Apple starts charging for OS updates, QuickTime Updates, iApp updates....

Oh you think they won't? Remember iTools? Do ya?:rolleyes:

Apple already does this. Its called Panther. Jaguar. And <insert 10.4 codename here>.

BobVB
Dec 21, 2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by azdude
Hmm... Has this always been here!??!?!?!?

Don't know about always, but its been there for a long time, at least since the availability of the MPEG-2 QT plugin. Whenever they update it I just download it from there.

sjk
Dec 21, 2003, 12:57 AM
Since this is all just speculation right now...

Let's hope Apple isn't intending to risk using a DRM activation with downloaded software purchases similar to iTMS, making it capable of running on a limited number of authorized systems.

Gymnut
Dec 21, 2003, 01:12 AM
Hmm..with manuals increasingly on the way out in being packaged with software this makes sense. Albeit pro apps such as Final Cut or even Express may prove to be a long print if the documentation is included with the software.

arn
Dec 21, 2003, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by azdude
Hmm... Has this always been here!??!?!?!?

Yeah.... the Quicktime MPEG-2 component was sold as a download purchase from the Apple store.

arn

billyboy
Dec 21, 2003, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by sjk
Since this is all just speculation right now...

Let's hope Apple isn't intending to risk using a DRM activation with downloaded software purchases similar to iTMS, making it capable of running on a limited number of authorized systems.

As long as it was a seamless background process and they made it public and not sneaked in somehow, why not?

"2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, ..."

They would only be covering themselves from accidental misuse of their software.

youngr40
Dec 21, 2003, 04:06 AM
Good in principle, but I hope they are very se;ective who they allow to sell through here, I don't want it comin up every five minutes, notifying e of something new.

I expect first they will provide .mac customers updates through here, then extend to rest .

MCCFR
Dec 21, 2003, 04:15 AM
Here in the UK, there simply aren't enough bricks & mortar Apple resellers to worry about upsetting.

If this concept allows Apple to afford its customers access to a wide range of software - including titles that are not necessarily available in a given territory - thus countering the apathy and ignorance of some of the larger 'multiple' partners (PC World in the UK, insert your our bete noire for your country), then surely this is a good thing.

iChan
Dec 21, 2003, 05:36 AM
I wonder if software update will be renamed to reflect these changes as going into software update to buy a new program would certainly be strange, and obviously not the first place you'd look... esp newbies.

iChan
Dec 21, 2003, 05:39 AM
I'm still all for it though, downloading a program, even 650MB (Like a cd), from good, fast servers, would be so much quicker and more convienient than waiting for the Apple Store to deliver it...

hopefully, without any hardcopies of anything, they can make the programs cheaper!!...

iChan
Dec 21, 2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Billicus
Exactly. Hopefully it'll just be a seperate tab for purchasing software rather than updating purchased software.
maybe they'll rename the prefpane to "software purchase and update", kinda like the way Apple combines keyboard and mouse, and print and fax and desktop and screensavers.

iChan
Dec 21, 2003, 06:11 AM
I think Apple are completely different to MS...

Analog Kid
Dec 21, 2003, 06:12 AM
I don't like the idea-- not in Software Update, or anywhere in the menu structure...

I don't want SU cluttered with things I can buy (especially with one click!). Software Update is a great tool, and supporting 3rd party updates isn't a bad idea as long as it's smart about what it shows me-- the current method of listing iPod and Airport Extreme updates that I can't use because I don't have the hardware drives me nuts.

I already don't like a menu slot taken with "Mac OS X Software". I can find their website just fine, thank you...

I would consider it a win if I could download apps from their website though. I just don't want an OS littered with commercials...

GulGnu
Dec 21, 2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by Analog Kid
I don't like the idea-- not in Software Update, or anywhere in the menu structure...

I don't want SU cluttered with things I can buy

Erm, they just need to put it on a different tab, and there will be no clutter. Unlike a certain competing software / OS maker, I trust Apple to get this one right.

Plus, this move would counter one of Apple's main weaknesses compared to PCs - lack of easy, conviniently purchased software. (I.e - non-mailorder delivery.)

Regards, GulGnu

The Grimace
Dec 21, 2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by splashman
I didn't know that was possible. How?

I see a check-box for "Download important updates in the background." Is that it?

I'd prefer to have all the updaters on my system, so I don't have to download a whole gaggle of updaters if I have to re-install the system.

You could also check out this page (http://www.info.apple.com/) on Apples website.

(tig)

rdowns
Dec 21, 2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Do you have reg account or edu account?

I just checked mine and it's not listed as such but I do have edu account.

I don't have it either. I assume only those who have purchased d/l sw from Apple would have it in their account.

rdowns
Dec 21, 2003, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Analog Kid
I don't want SU cluttered with things I can buy (especially with one click!). Software Update is a great tool, and supporting 3rd party updates isn't a bad idea as long as it's smart about what it shows me-- the current method of listing iPod and Airport Extreme updates that I can't use because I don't have the hardware drives me nuts.


I think showing you all updates, regardless of whether or not you use/need them, is a good policy. You can easlily choose to ignore them if you wish.

I learned a while ago that it's a good idea to keep ALL parts of your system up to date so if you upgrade in the future, you're good to go and not scrambling around for older updates.

Photorun
Dec 21, 2003, 09:12 AM
Another potentially bothersome aspect is 3rd party software that may be buggy or come with a "friendly" virus. I've always been impressed with how airtight Apple's Software Update is but thought to myself ("self") this would be a very easy and frightening way for someone to send in a Trojan Horse. Indeed OS X is secure, can be, but if you give someone the access rights to mess with your core UNIX underpinnings there's a recipe for disaster.

backdraft
Dec 21, 2003, 09:18 AM
The problem that I see with this is SECURITY. Thats right SECURITY. We all know how M$ has problems with this since almost 99.9% of their apps have access to the net. Ex. Why would Word, powerpoint, and excel need access to the net?

Separate app please.

-backdraft

aldo
Dec 21, 2003, 10:37 AM
If implemented correctly this can be as safe, if not safer, than the current software update.

You would connect over SSL to the apple software server, which should be an IP address and not a DNS address which coul d be hijacked with a fake DNS server installed on your machine.

After this, you'd grab the software, which would have a SHA1 checksum (very secure checksum) and you'd verify the file against a checksum from a different apple server

The only way that anyone could install fake updates/software is by hacking the install/update server AND the SHA1 checksum server... which isn't very easy as long as the servers are secure.

thecow
Dec 21, 2003, 11:02 AM
I think that one problem with this is that it would make it very easy to pirate sowtware. You could just download the file to your desktop, make a disk image of it and include the serial. Unless of course apple makes the file so that it will only work on the computer that it is downloaded on or somthing like that.

tduality
Dec 21, 2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by rdowns
I think showing you all updates, regardless of whether or not you use/need them, is a good policy. You can easlily choose to ignore them if you wish.

I learned a while ago that it's a good idea to keep ALL parts of your system up to date so if you upgrade in the future, you're good to go and not scrambling around for older updates.

I always had an 'Apple thinks this is good for your Mac, so just go for it' attitude. I wouldn't like it so much to have mixed with other software offers. Having the offers on a separate tab would do fine with me.

cevin
Dec 21, 2003, 12:14 PM
Couldn't that be the new iApp that coording to Jobs is the one iApp 'noone has thought about yet'

Anyway, its sounds like i good feature that I'll sure be using.

iomar
Dec 21, 2003, 12:55 PM
I think this will be great but I am afraid that Apple might start charging people for every download now.

ghotirsd
Dec 21, 2003, 01:51 PM
I think something like this is a good idea, if Apple took certain precautions and steps:
Provide an option NOT to see the 3rd party updates in the software update (something akin to what The Evil Empire (http://microsoft.com) does - you can select what software choices NOT to see in the Windows Update).
Have some sort of certification for 3rd party vendors: a guarantee of sorts that Apple has checked the code/vendors software and by downloading the vendor's update your system won't get FUBARed.
Just my 1/200th of a US Dollar.

k2k koos
Dec 21, 2003, 02:07 PM
I don't like to see commerce creeping into my OS, leave it out, this is the start of something bad, and will irritate us just as much as all those pop up banners do.

no thanks, leave SU as it is, don't fix what isn't broken.

Analog Kid
Dec 21, 2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by rdowns
I think showing you all updates, regardless of whether or not you use/need them, is a good policy. You can easlily choose to ignore them if you wish.

I learned a while ago that it's a good idea to keep ALL parts of your system up to date so if you upgrade in the future, you're good to go and not scrambling around for older updates.

I just don't think this is a sustainable model... As the number of updates I don't need exceed the number of updates I do need, I will either need to download and ever increasing amount of useless patches or filter them myself and risk needing something important.

Either way, the hassle will become such that I'll check for updates less often.

When I install new software or new hardware, the first thing I do is check for updates as part of the installation process.

Analog Kid
Dec 21, 2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by GulGnu
Erm, they just need to put it on a different tab, and there will be no clutter. Unlike a certain competing software / OS maker, I trust Apple to get this one right.

Plus, this move would counter one of Apple's main weaknesses compared to PCs - lack of easy, conviniently purchased software. (I.e - non-mailorder delivery.)

Regards, GulGnu

I still consider the separate tab to be clutter, in the same way I consider banner ads to be clutter. I don't want commercials in my frequently used OS functions.

There's obviously people here with different opinions on this, and I may be more sensitive to to this than most, but I have a strongly negative reaction when I see the "Mac OS X Software" menu item while looking for something OS related in the Apple Menu and would have the same strongly negative response to such a tab in my Software Update.

Perhaps adding the tab and removing the menu item would be a net gain, but I'd prefer having neither.

Free updates to third party apps I have installed is a different matter-- and a move I would welcome.

I've got a bookmark to Apple in Safari. If I want to buy new software, let me go to the web store. As a convenience matter, I find this much better because I can seem more information about a product in a browser than the SU interface provides for.

And how many tabs would be required to sort 3rd party apps in a browsable way? One per vendor? One per genre?

myuu
Dec 21, 2003, 04:10 PM
Ummm...didn't Lindows patent this?

ITR 81
Dec 21, 2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Analog Kid
I still consider the separate tab to be clutter, in the same way I consider banner ads to be clutter. I don't want commercials in my frequently used OS functions.

There's obviously people here with different opinions on this, and I may be more sensitive to to this than most, but I have a strongly negative reaction when I see the "Mac OS X Software" menu item while looking for something OS related in the Apple Menu and would have the same strongly negative response to such a tab in my Software Update.

Perhaps adding the tab and removing the menu item would be a net gain, but I'd prefer having neither.

Free updates to third party apps I have installed is a different matter-- and a move I would welcome.

I've got a bookmark to Apple in Safari. If I want to buy new software, let me go to the web store. As a convenience matter, I find this much better because I can seem more information about a product in a browser than the SU interface provides for.

And how many tabs would be required to sort 3rd party apps in a browsable way? One per vendor? One per genre?

I doubt you will find many OS without them asking you to upgrade this and that.

Almost all known software asks you to upgrade it from time to time.

If your using a computer your using a commercialized product.

If you had it your way Apple wouldn't be able to even put it's www. site on their.
Thats to extreme and would end up hurting Apple then helping it.

Extremism of this type hurts everything and has never lead to anything good.

I think it's a good idea. As it's not spam when you have the products on your computer to begin with. Also I rather cut out the middle man then have to pay extra for a d*mn box and printed materials.

Ibjr
Dec 21, 2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Spoon
With download speeds on the rise, this makes sense to me. Save me a trip to the store and make it convenient. Just hope the interface is simple. Knowing Apple, it will be.

ON the rise? Really?
Just how did you reach this conclusion? Current Broadband providerís monopoly gives them little incentive to upgrade your speed (see 128 kps Upstream from cable). As more people use broadband the quality of service will fall as cable companies wonít see a reason to provide more bandwidth. It will be worse, not better.

Ibjr
Dec 21, 2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
h. Also I rather cut out the middle man then have to pay extra for a d*mn box and printed materials.

I would rather have a box, even if the software is provided over the internet they will still bilk you for the cost of the box. Iíd rather have the box because if apple provides payed for updates like they do iTunes music, then Iíd have to back up all my payed for updates. What a waste.

fatfish
Dec 21, 2003, 06:06 PM
Well what a damn good idea.

I'm certain apple will do it right. Of course there will be DRM of sorts, only people who steal can see this as a problem.

It's not clear but I would imagine it will be limited to updates, not software you don't have installed. After all that's the way it is now, don't have keynote, don't see the updates. It's hardly clutter.

I spend about 30 mins a month checking for new software, and days sometimes waiting for it to arrive, bring it on apple.

What I would also like to see is the applestore selling software by download, this would need a different level of DRM than updates and apple would need to work with the software companies to make it work.

I'd be quite happy to download in the background even 1 Gb dl's would only take about 4 hrs, here in the UK they can take up to 2 weeks by our inferior postal service.

And finally, it's a jolly good green concept, no oil for disks, no trees for packaging and no polution for delivery.

tny
Dec 21, 2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Ibjr
ON the rise? Really?
Just how did you reach this conclusion? Current Broadband providerís monopoly gives them little incentive to upgrade your speed (see 128 kps Upstream from cable). As more people use broadband the quality of service will fall as cable companies wonít see a reason to provide more bandwidth. It will be worse, not better.

He probably has Comcast (former ATTBI customer); some of us just got the standard 1.5Mbps/128kbps subscription upgraded to 3Mbps/256kbps at no extra cost.

Powerbook G5
Dec 21, 2003, 06:41 PM
Time Warner just doubled their speed recently as well.

ITR 81
Dec 21, 2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Ibjr
I would rather have a box, even if the software is provided over the internet they will still bilk you for the cost of the box. Iíd rather have the box because if apple provides payed for updates like they do iTunes music, then Iíd have to back up all my payed for updates. What a waste.

I think they will still do both. Right now they are just giving the end users more options.

I'll be going sat. broadband sometime next yr..so I wouldn't mind getting upgrades via the internet.

Most I've seen with it is 400-500k down and 128-256k up.

danielgrenell
Dec 22, 2003, 12:48 AM
"I think this should be a separate application or component and not SWU, though. Software Update is for updating system software, not an electronic retail store. It already does a fantastic job at what it is, so I don't want to see it being cluttered with extra features that aren't a part of what software update is there to accomplish. If Apple wants an Apple Store built into Mac OS X, that is great, but make it a separate entity and don't let it clutter something dedicated like SWU."

my thoughts exactly

alamar
Dec 22, 2003, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by latergator116
Sounds stupid to me. The software update is to update software, not to purchase software. If you want to buy software:a. make a seperate app to specificaly do that, or b: go to the store

this would complicate things IMHO. The Software Update is a good idea. Esp if you can turn off the for pay stuff and just have the program do its job, for those of us not rolling hard with the 20 inch rims and the bling bling.

alamar
Dec 22, 2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by fatfish
Well what a damn good idea.

I'm certain apple will do it right. Of course there will be DRM of sorts, only people who steal can see this as a problem.


I disagree. DMR has yet to get to where it needs to be. Software is less of a sticky mess since you typically buy a certian number of licenses, but if we just start blindly accepting the restirctions with the idea that "the Man" knows best and is in no way out to get us, we will be bent over.

Kinda off topic I know....

Sabenth
Dec 22, 2003, 03:04 AM
but it dose need a seprate tab like so many have said before me ..

and nothing wrong with boxed versions either

fatfish
Dec 22, 2003, 03:04 AM
I disagree. DMR has yet to get to where it needs to be. Software is less of a sticky mess since you typically buy a certian number of licenses, but if we just start blindly accepting the restirctions with the idea that "the Man" knows best and is in no way out to get us, we will be bent over.

Give over, many companies already update free over the internet, update for a charge over the internet and sell software over the internet.

It all works very well, I don't see they have us bent over. The only problem is, one has to search for these updates at present, it would be great to have them all in one place, or even better one app that searched in the background once a week.

You can do this to a fashion with versiontracker already, so why the big deal with apple.

Mac-Xpert
Dec 22, 2003, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
I think they will still do both. Right now they are just giving the end users more options.


This is what worries me. If you can only get your software (both apple and 3rd party) through the software update, what will you do when you have to re-install all your software after a harddisk crash?

They will need to offer a easy way to backup your software updates/purchases on CD.

Also, they may at first offer both options (download and purchase a cd) but in the future you may be required to always have access to the net to be able to update your software. I donít think this is a practical way of doing things.

Analog Kid
Dec 22, 2003, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
I doubt you will find many OS without them asking you to upgrade this and that.

Almost all known software asks you to upgrade it from time to time.

If your using a computer your using a commercialized product.

If you had it your way Apple wouldn't be able to even put it's www. site on their.
Thats to extreme and would end up hurting Apple then helping it.

Extremism of this type hurts everything and has never lead to anything good.

I think it's a good idea. As it's not spam when you have the products on your computer to begin with. Also I rather cut out the middle man then have to pay extra for a d*mn box and printed materials.

Ok, what part of my post didn't you read?

Oh, I know! It was the part where I said:
Free updates to third party apps I have installed is a different matter-- and a move I would welcome.


None of what I was saying was about updates. It was about mixing sales with updates.

If you'd get off your horse for a second and read my comments rather than blindly taking them as a Luddite assault, you'd realize what I'm arguing is hardly extreme.

I specifically said I thought the www method was the better way to go-- so if I had my way Apple certainly would have their website.

Yes, my computer is a commercial product, but one that I've paid for running software that I paid for. If the $129 I paid for Panther doesn't cover the cost, raise the price. If there's a demand for ad subsidized software, then by all means provide that as an option-- but don't expect me to buy it.

My sofa is a commercial product but it doesn't interrupt me when I sit down to tell me about the great ottoman I could buy.

Personally I think Quicktime coming up and asking you to buy the pro edition either now or later hurts Apple and their users. It makes their product a pain to use, likely making it less used, and it tarnishes Apple's reputation for being a company above using annoyance as a sales technique.

Conversely, I think providing an electronic retail outlet would improve Apple's image and give folks without an Apple store or some other equivalent in their geographical vicinity a way of getting more from their Macs. Just do it a different way.

Don't stick it in my face when I'm trying to get work done, or make using the product more of a hassle than it's worth.

I'm tired of being bombarded by advertisements at every turn-- and I don't think there's anything extreme about that view. It think it's the reason people don't "register" the products they buy any more-- they know what happens if they do.

I think periodic OS updates are an important thing to encourage for security reasons if nothing else. Anything that discourages a user from doing so is a bad policy, in my mind. If you look at the problems Windows has, among the biggest is people not patching known vulnerabilities.

This is a discussion of what a string buried in a preference file means, for god's sake. There's a number of ideas floating around about what Apple could do with Software Update and I'm simply making a modest statement about what I would prefer.


As I stated clearly and up front:
There's obviously people here with different opinions on this, and I may be more sensitive to this than most...

I think I can safely count you among those people...

Analog Kid
Dec 22, 2003, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by fatfish
Well what a damn good idea.

I'm certain apple will do it right. Of course there will be DRM of sorts, only people who steal can see this as a problem.


I think your blanket statement about who will see a problem is a little off.

If you look at what's happening in the music world, there are a lot of ways of implementing DRM, some of which are a major pain for people who don't steal. CD's that can't get ripped into MP3 players, for example.

Or look at what Intuit did (and got hammered for) with the Windows version of Turbo Tax.

On the music front, I think Apple's done it right and I, like you, think they'd do it right here too.

The wild card here is that this is 3rd party software. Apple may not control it.

Mac-Xpert
Dec 22, 2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
I think they will still do both. Right now they are just giving the end users more options.

This is what worries me. If you can only get your software (both apple and 3rd party) through the software update, what will you do when you have to re-install all your software after a harddisk crash?

They will need to offer a easy way to backup your software updates/purchases on CD.

Also, they may at first offer both options (download and purchase a cd) but in the future you may be required to always have access to the net to be able to update your software. I donít think this is a practical way of doing things.

Analog Kid
Dec 22, 2003, 04:00 AM
Looking at the original rumor again, it could be that this is just another integration with .Mac-- not a general store.

This would make life a little more manageable-- there's only a handful of offerings.

I'd still prefer it be separate. Let Software Update update software, and give me another route to see what goodies I get through .Mac.

I usually get an email from Apple pointing me to the .Mac site for downloads anyway...

peharri
Dec 22, 2003, 08:41 AM
Ok, so in addition to Software update coming up every few days to advise me about applications I have that need updating, this is also going to cause it to come up about applications I don't want or need.

No thank you! A seperate app, that one can run periodically, I can understand, but this shouldn't be part of Software Update. Maybe having it as a menu option on Safari might work. The Safari Software Store... that has potential.

mrsebastian
Dec 22, 2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by peharri
Ok, so in addition to Software update coming up every few days to advise me about applications I have that need updating, this is also going to cause it to come up about applications I don't want or need.

No thank you! A seperate app, that one can run periodically, I can understand, but this shouldn't be part of Software Update. Maybe having it as a menu option on Safari might work. The Safari Software Store... that has potential.

amen to that! i already get enough f#%king spam trying to sell me ******. though this isn't a bad concept, this has to be done in a non-intrusive manner!

corey
Dec 22, 2003, 12:24 PM
i keep rereading the rumor and only finding information regarding the ability to purchase. where is everyone getting the idea that unwanted advertising is involved?

Powerbook G5
Dec 22, 2003, 12:43 PM
Perhaps they remember the days that there were banner ads all over Sherlock back in OS 9.

fatfish
Dec 22, 2003, 05:47 PM
Ok, so in addition to Software update coming up every few days to advise me about applications I have that need updating, this is also going to cause it to come up about applications I don't want or need.

------------------------------------------------

It really boils down to how you interpret the rumour. There are obviously some who assume that the option to purchase software, will mean a whole list of software products being shoved in your face.

I personally assume otherwise, this is a software update utility and I expect to see only available updates for software products already installed on my computer. Don't forget many of these will still need purchasing.

Anything else would simply be chaos. It wouldn't be an update utility at all, it has to work with packages already on your computer, if it didn't the same updates would just keep popping up.

At the very worst I think we might be taken to a "new additions" software page at the apple store, either by clicking a button or closing SU. But to have software you don't use pop up in an update utility, no way.