Man has affair with Nurse, sues hospital!

[Raid]

Metro News (http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/Local/article/84252) July 15, 2008 11:25

It started with an innocent game of chess between a patient and his nurse. But it quickly evolved.

Soon, the pair were having sex all over the hospital — in his room, the staff lounge, examination room. But their clandestine encounters went beyond the walls of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health on Queen St. W. When permitted to leave the hospital for a few hours on a community pass, the good-looking 6-foot-3 patient met the woman at a nearby hotel.

Although she was married, their relationship lasted about two years and remained intact even after she was fired from CAMH — an incident he blamed himself for and, in an act of penance, jumped into oncoming traffic.

When she became pregnant last fall, he slipped into a depression, which again landed him in hospital. It’s an unusual tale that has been pieced together from his clinical notes, a CAMH report and an $850,000 lawsuit recently filed in an Ontario Superior Court.

The patient, identified only as John, is suing CAMH and the nurse, identified as Jane. The court has banned publication of their names to protect the identity of the child.

“I just know that she messed my head up pretty good and that I’ve done things to myself that I never did before,” John told Torstar News Service.

According to the statement of claim, John alleges Jane was negligent in her treatment when she failed to discourage a social relationship, refused to respect professional boundaries and neglected to consider the harm that would result from violating them.

The hospital, it alleges, failed to arrange for appropriate supervision, inspection and monitoring of John at his home. Had they checked on him, John says, they would have discovered her lingerie, strewn about his apartment. I saw this article today which reminded me of this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=522839). I guess this goes to prove lawsuits based on flimsy premises aren't all based in the US of A. :rolleyes: The man in question lives out a classic fantasy then sues the hospital and nurse for getting some action! Granted he was a patient in a hospital that treats addiction and mental problems, so he's got problems and the nurse should have known better; but common, a two year relationship even outside the hospital and now he sues?!?

Sure there are a lot of issues here, but I wouldn't give much consideration in the suit to his relationship with the former nurse. Yes stressful events happened with the nurse that impacted this man's life, but he is still ultimately responsible for his actions. What society needs is some sort of legal definition for a "Reasonable amount of personal responsibility" so these suits can focus on the lack of hospital supervision rather than this guy's affair.

[Lord Blackadder]

The state needs to remind this man about personal responsibility.

[AppleMatt]

The state needs to remind this man about personal responsibility.

No, they don't. I don't agree with suing for a set amount of money (how do you quantify psychological harm?) but I completely agree with the principle.

Some may know I work in a similar setting, and these 'opportunities' pop up all the time, but understanding the reasons behind it and the abuse and psychological damage pursuing it does cause means that no-one with an ounce of professional boundaries (or a caring heart) would consider following through.

This boils down to institutional abuse. She needs to lose her job, then she needs to lose her registration and finally she needs to be shown consequences. It would surprised many at how extremely vulnerable even large, confident muscular fully grown men can become, when at the behest of any mental illness.

Flame away, but before anyone does ask yourself if the nurse had been male and was abusing a female patient, would you feel any different? Or would you get that awkward feeling in your chest, when you know something is sick, and that person should pay for their actions?

AppleMatt

[Lord Blackadder]

No, they don't. I don't agree with suing for a set amount of money (how do you quantify psychological harm?) but I completely agree with the principle.

<...snip...>

Flame away, but before anyone does ask yourself if the nurse had been male and was abusing a female patient, would you feel any different? Or would you get that awkward feeling in your chest, when you know something is sick, and that person should pay for their actions?

AppleMatt

The nurse deserves to be punished, I agree, but in no part of the man's statement did he admit of any personal responsibility in the matter. I can't accept that. I'm not convinced that he his entitled to monetary compensation for this, unless he is awarded damages in the form of further psychological treatment.

The nurse abused her position, but who's to say the relationship itself was abusive? Who's to say "John" wasn't fine with the situation till it ended, then abused his own position by overemphasizing the impropriety of the nurse/patient affair in order to get revenge?

[Abstract]

I only agree that he should sue if he originally entered the "Addiction and Mental Health" clinic for being addicted to sex. ;)

Otherwise, no. She should be punished. The hospital shouldn't be.

[Peace]

They better put these two people in different hospitals when this is resolved.

[Mpulsive81]

It's two consensual adults bumpin' uglies and he's somehow he's got a case?

What...now we can sue our ex's for dumping us and causing us mental anguish? Or was maybe we sue our ex's for allowing themselves to get pregnant and causing us mental anguish. Maybe she should sue the hospital for admitting attractive men? I mean really...what's next?

her = stupid for having an affair
him = stupid for getting involved with a married woman

At the end of the day, these were decisions and choices made by ADULTS. It just happens that one adult is depressed. Now he's trying to get a little cash cause she split and he's feeling vulnerable. I mean, who sits around and makes up these lawsuits anyways? That's the person that makes me sick. You got fired! I blame me....*jumps out in front of moving cars* - now i'm going to sue you because I felt bad! All I see here is an attention whore who's mad that he can't have what he wants and is throwing an $850,000 temper tantrum.

AppleMatt - I really wish I could understand where you're coming from on this but I honestly can't. If it were a female patient and a male nurse (like Focker! lol) there'd be no difference. No one was raped...they're both adults and they made their choice. And yes, before we go there, I am well aware of the effects of depression, on a personal & professional level. But at the end of the day, both parties need to be responsible for their actions. If you chose to get involved with a married woman, there's a good chance it wasn't going to work in your favor. People break up all the time...it sucks, but that's life. Suck it up, take your zoloft, and try your luck again with another fish in the sea. :D

[Antares]

The nurse deserves to be punished

I agree....with whips and a leather harness. :D

Now, I concur about the crossing of professional boundaries here and it being an action definitely to get her fired. That was why she was fired from the hospital, right? But he was of sound mind and they were both consenting adults. It would be a different story if he was mentally impaired and she took advantage of that. I see no problem here other than the crossing of professional boundries.

But yeah, there is a double standard. If the genders were reversed, I guarantee that there would be cries of rape and no sympathy for the nurse (if the nurse was male and the patient female).

That guy actually experienced something that most men can only fantasize about...he has no right to complain. ;)

[Sun Baked]

I hope her husband sues him ... :p

Sort of sad when he did his penance, that he jumped in front of slow moving traffic.

[roisin and mac]

Kinda have to agree with AppleMatt on this one. This isn't like any other affair between a couple of adults, it's an affair between a medical carer and a patient, which from what I know is a huge no-no for medical professionals. And the mention of the guy being in an addictions wing or summat, makes me think that it might have to do with psychiatry too, in which case, it's even more of a no-go area to fool around with your patients. There's a reason these rules exist, it's to make sure the patient stands the best chance of getting better, it ain't to break up the fun :)

Plus, like someone else said, on an emotional level, the fact this was a tall, bulky guy doesn't mean he wasn't vulnerable to what you might call a mindfuch, which is what we're being told happened. Again like AppleMatt said, a good way to sort out one's biases in this, is to think about how you'd see this if it had been a female patient and male doctor--most people would be up in arms without needing to explore the issue much, but often people are used to thinking men are always the tough party in any mixed gender interaction, so they get snarky when they read about something like that, and call the guy a wuss or decide he's lying.

[mistyblue]

I've got one for you. Myhusband had quadruple bypass surgery feb. 2008.In April 2008 he was still having some sort of hallucinations.Seeing giant hub caps,giant dust particals,exploding pig in multicolor ect. I was told this was possibly because of being on vent. and bypass pump for so many hours. In April he started his cardiac rehab. I drove him the first few times. After that he went on his own. I worried. By late may or early july his rehab. nurse began coming to our home every single day after work whether I was at work or at home.I went back to work shortly after he began rehab.We live at a beach in a building with a pool.My husband said that the nurse was coming after work to use our pool and walk the beach for exercise.She used her position to gain my trust. I,myself had health issues that on July 10,2008 caused my doctor to put me out of work to get well enough to have surgery.On July 18,2008,I had a rectocele,cystocele repair,1 ft. of my colon removed,my bladder tacked and an ovary removed. I was told not to be shocked if I woke up with a colostomy.2 days after my surgery the rehab. nurse left her husband.She and my husband,her patient,had been having an affair.The nurse forbid her husband to tell me and she still came to my house every day after work. It was all I could do to pull myself out of bed.I was tired,sore,had a foley cath.my marriage was under strain due to my husband illness,surgery,my illness,surgery.My husband was taking care of me but when the nurse came over,first she would vanish,then he would. They were meeting in a hotel 2 miles from our home.We live in a small comm.Neighbors were telling me of this,friends were telling me of this.I was trying to recover.One day I rode to the motel myself when I could drive a car, and saw the two coming out of the motel together. They were very much a couple.I confronted them both. I asked her how she could betray my trust in her like that. I hold my husband to blame for his part,but then he was having occassional hallucinations and problems with short term memory too.She was the professional.She had been telling my husband of all her marital issues,said she was feeling suicidal,calling him at night drunk in a bar and asking him to come pick her up.We seperated Aug.18,2008.They moved in together.

[jarjarblinks]

I've got one for you. They moved in together.

Mistyblue, God bless, and may you recover in mind and body in the tenure of 2009. Holding you in prayer.

[ucfgrad93]

The state needs to remind this man about personal responsibility.

Agreed. It seems that very few people want to take personal repsonsibility for their actions. It is always someone else's fault.:mad:

[.Andy]

Agreed. It seems that very few people want to take personal repsonsibility for their actions. It is always someone else's fault.:mad:
In cases such as this, there are two issues. Taking personal responsibility is one of them, but professional misconduct by abusing the power differential is another. Suing someone (or their employer) for abuse of power does not necessarily mean that the person is shirking any of their personal responsibility.

There are very strict rules on entering into relationships with patients. If I were to abuse the therapeutic relationship with one of my patients, I would be more accountable than they were.

[ucfgrad93]

In cases such as this, there are two issues. Taking personal responsibility is one of them, but professional misconduct by abusing the power differential is another. Suing someone (or their employer) for abuse of power does not necessarily mean that the person is shirking any of their personal responsibility.

There are very strict rules on entering into relationships with patients. If I were to abuse the therapeutic relationship with one of my patients, I would be more accountable than they were.

He should be suing the nurse, not the hospital. Instead, he is simply going for the deep pockets.

[mkrishnan]

There are very strict rules on entering into relationships with patients. If I were to abuse the therapeutic relationship with one of my patients, I would be more accountable than they were.

The rules definitely should be one-sided. The healthcare provider has the differential power in the relationship. This nurse's behavior was unethical in the extreme. His behavior was stupid, but it was hers that was unethical. I mean, this is a person being treated in an addiction center. If I did something like this to my patient, I would expect to be held severely accountable.

Also, if this were a male doctor and a female patient, the headline would probably read that this Lothario doctor had seduced her and the support for her position would be far more spread. This is not an issue of a male/female power imbalance. This is an issue of a care provider / patient imbalance, and she is on the guilty side whether she were male or female.

[.Andy]

He should be suing the nurse, not the hospital.
That's not how it works I'm afraid. The hospital are the one's providing the care and therefore responsible for ensuring the fitness and actions of their staff. The nurse is also personally culpable for professional misconduct and would likely be struck off the nursing register for a period of time for her actions.

Can anyone find how this ended up? it was quite a while ago now. I'm not having much luck on google news.....

The rules definitely should be one-sided. The healthcare provider has the differential power in the relationship. This nurse's behavior was unethical in the extreme. His behavior was stupid, but it was hers that was unethical. I mean, this is a person being treated in an addiction center. If I did something like this to my patient, I would expect to be held severely accountable.

Also, if this were a male doctor and a female patient, the headline would probably read that this Lothario doctor had seduced her and the support for her position would be far more spread. This is not an issue of a male/female power imbalance. This is an issue of a care provider / patient imbalance, and she is on the guilty side whether she were male or female.
Exactly. During training we're severely warned that the medical registration boards will support us and be largely forgiving for almost anything - drug addiction, professional incompetence, criminal activity etc etc. The only thing that they'll usually wash their hands of us is sexual misconduct. For a number of reasons (one of which you illustrate) it's not acceptable at all.

[atszyman]

Once again I find that details that could make all the difference are missing. He was in the "Centre for Addiction and Mental Health" we aren't told why he was in there. Was he a patient that the hospital should have followed up with upon his release to make sure everything was going OK? Were they negligent in that followup?

The nurse bears most of the responsibility in acting unethically, especially if he was in for a reason that might have indicated his ability to make sound decisions was impaired. However, if the hospital failed to follow up on a patient that would require some checking in, then they could very well bear some of the responsibility as well.

[mkrishnan]

Exactly. During training we're severely warned that the medical registration boards will support us and be largely forgiving for almost anything - drug addiction, professional incompetence, criminal activity etc etc. The only thing that they'll usually wash their hands of us is sexual misconduct. For a number of reasons (one of which you illustrate) it's not acceptable at all.

I think one of the craziest disconnects is that, as anathema as it seems to most of us, it still happens. I don't know what the training is like for nurses, but for psychologists, too, there is no lack of certainty that this is not okay.

My first college-level psychology class was a human sexuality class, and one of the guest lecturers, who was a therapist, during her talk, was quite serious and said, "DO NOT SLEEP WITH YOUR PATIENTS." I thought it was quite funny at the time -- I still do, because it would seem so unnatural to me and obviously wrong. But somehow, it happens. And it isn't even just 60-year-old white men who think they're part of some boys club. It happens, more often than we admit, all across the spectrum.

And it's not okay.

[.Andy]

I think one of the craziest disconnects is that, as anathema as it seems to most of us, it still happens.
I guess it's those limited number of occasions where it does work out that people are chasing. But I see it as exactly the same reasons why medical professionals are desperate for love and start relationships with patients (long hours, high stress, limited free time, shift work etc) that in the long run makes the same relationships highly likely to fail. It's such a risk that puts your career, and more importantly your patients care at jeopardy.

Even the arbitrary 6 months/12 months/2 years/whatever grace period before entering into a personal relationship with a former patient/client is fraught with danger. As you point out strictly hands off is the by far the best policy for everyone.

[skunk]

The nurse abused her position, but who's to say the relationship itself was abusive? Who's to say "John" wasn't fine with the situation till it ended, then abused his own position by overemphasizing the impropriety of the nurse/patient affair in order to get revenge?Who's to say? Why, the court, of course. That's what it's there for.

I absolutely agree with AppleMatt here. This sounds like abuse of a vulnerable patient, and if it had been a male nurse with a vulnerable female patient, surely nobody would be in any doubt about culpability. If he did jump into oncoming traffic when she lost her job, it shows that either he was very psychologically vulnerable, or that she manipulated him into thinking it was his fault, or both.

As for monetary compensation, why not? If any other type of medical malpractice were involved, there would be no question.

[JNB]

All I want to know if this particular Canadian John is our Canadian John... :p

[Gray-Wolf]

They should throw the suit out. He knew full well what he was doing. He's danced to the music, now its time to pay the piper.

[Raid]

Can anyone find how this ended up? it was quite a while ago now. I'm not having much luck on google news..... The publication ban on their names makes looking for any follow ups very difficult. :o

I still can't really reconcile his reasoning for the lawsuit, I do feel the nurse should face the charges of professional misconduct, but a large part of the affair was conducted after his release from the hospital (and I assume with his consent).

[GSMiller]

“I just know that she messed my head up pretty good and that I’ve done things to myself that I never did before,” John told Torstar News Service.

It was the fault of his penis he went crazy over a woman, not the hospital. Idiot, AND he reproduced, fantastic :rolleyes:

[mistyblue]

before my husband had his quadruple bypass surgery the doctors told us that they could probably save his life but he may end up with cognitive issues.I looked at it this way,THEY COULD SAVE HIS LIFE! Afterwards he did have short term memory loss,trouble concentrating,short temper and some personality changes. Very forgetful too. He saw giant flicks of dust,giant hub caps and exploding animals in multicolor! But he was alive! This is when the affair with his rehab. nurse began. My husband is 63.His rehab. nurse is 42.She began their relationship by discussing her marital issues with my husband,crying on his shoulder and calling late at night for him to pick her up from a bar because she felt suicidal and was also too drunk to drive herself home. She herself told me this last month. This is all so new to me that I don't know what to think or do.

[runningman]

The hospital, it alleges, failed to arrange for appropriate supervision, inspection and monitoring of John at his home. Had they checked on him, John says, they would have discovered her lingerie, strewn about his apartment.

That's my favorite. The hospital was responsible to follow "John" for the rest of his life and then on top of it illegally monitor him in his apartment. Agree the nurse was way off base and inappropriate, however, the hospital can in no way monitor their employees 100% of the time both professionally and personally.

[atszyman]

The hospital, it alleges, failed to arrange for appropriate supervision, inspection and monitoring of John at his home. Had they checked on him, John says, they would have discovered her lingerie, strewn about his apartment.

That's my favorite. The hospital was responsible to follow "John" for the rest of his life and then on top of it illegally monitor him in his apartment. Agree the nurse was way off base and inappropriate, however, the hospital can in no way monitor their employees 100% of the time both professionally and personally.

He was in the "Centre for Addiction and Mental Health."

Without knowing why he was there we cannot know if he was a patient that the hospital should have been keeping some sort of tabs on. He may have been someone they didn't need to check up on, in which case they bear no responsibility, but with the information provided we have no way of knowing whether or not the hospital itself was negligent in it's responsibilities, or if he was capable of being trusted to make the decisions about entering into or keeping up with the affair.

The likely scenario is that he was in no condition to be consenting to the affair and the nurse would be responsible for unethically pursuing an affair with someone who should not have been put into that decision making capacity and the hospital had no responsibility to check up on him after his release. But since we don't know anything about why he was there, I cannot be certain this is the case and therefore cannot pass judgement on whether or not the hospital bears any responsibility.

[runningman]

The article related to his home. So he was deemed stable and competent to leave the hospital and live alone. The hospital itself would not be monitoring the patient when he left. It would be the mental health team, psychiatrist, counselors, sponsors etc. Now they may be directly owned by the hospital. It also did not say the patient was put in an outpatient observed setting i.e. group home, half way, home monitoring.

[atszyman]

The article related to his home. So he was deemed stable and competent to leave the hospital and live alone. The hospital itself would not be monitoring the patient when he left. It would be the mental health team, psychiatrist, counselors, sponsors etc. Now they may be directly owned by the hospital. It also did not say the patient was put in an outpatient observed setting i.e. group home, half way, home monitoring.

I realize that but, was he in a condition where he was supposed to have some sort of mental health expert checking up on him after he left the hospital, was the hospital negligent in not setting it up for him prior to his release?

There are not enough details given for me to make a true judgement on the hospital's culpability in this instance. My gut reaction is that all of the blame, if there's any to be had, falls on the nurse, but without those details that could change my mind I cannot say for certain that the hospital and/or nurse should be blamed or not.

[runningman]

I realize that but, was he in a condition where he was supposed to have some sort of mental health expert checking up on him after he left the hospital, was the hospital negligent in not setting it up for him prior to his release?

There are not enough details given for me to make a true judgement on the hospital's culpability in this instance. My gut reaction is that all of the blame, if there's any to be had, falls on the nurse, but without those details that could change my mind I cannot say for certain that the hospital and/or nurse should be blamed or not.



True that

[mkrishnan]

I realize that but, was he in a condition where he was supposed to have some sort of mental health expert checking up on him after he left the hospital, was the hospital negligent in not setting it up for him prior to his release?

It varies from situation to situation, and of course I do not know Canadian policy on this, but in the US, and, I think in most other locations, it would not usually be the hospital's responsibility at the level of negligence. One of three things would happen:

- He was voluntarily admitted, discharged in stable condition, and competent to make his own decisions regarding healthcare, in which case the hospital would recommend to him that he receive outpatient care but not be responsible to make him do it.

- He was involuntarily admitted, in which case there would be a responsibility to evaluate and mandate his need for extended services, but it would lie with the legal / court system and not the hospital would bear responsibility.

- He was not competent to make medical decisions, in which case responsibility would lie with his appointed guardian or healthcare surrogate or whatever.

In none of these circumstances, FWIW, would it have been okay for a nurse, physician, psychologist, social worker, or any other healthcare provider to sleep with him. That has zero bearing on that issue.

[atszyman]

In none of these circumstances, FWIW, would it have been okay for a nurse, physician, psychologist, social worker, or any other healthcare provider to sleep with him. That has zero bearing on that issue.

I never said any of that did, I was merely commenting on the hospital's liability.

I do understand that the nurse acted unethically but, without knowing why he was there in the first place, it's hard to say how much responsibility she holds in starting/keeping up with the affair.

If he was of sound mind and capable of making his own adult decisions and had checked himself in for something not related to his decision making, her actions would still be unethical, but it would be hard to argue that he was taken advantage of. However very quickly thereafter you start getting into situations where she was (knowingly or unknowingly) getting him to make decisions he was not mentally equipped to handle. Without that information, I cannot say how much responsibility both he and she bear in starting and maintaining the affair, just as I cannot say how much responsibility the hospital bears.

[leishan]

It boils down to a man who won't take responsibility for his own actions. What, did she force him to have an affair with her????

[skunk]

It boils down to a man who won't take responsibility for his own actions. What, did she force him to have an affair with her????None of us has any idea, so making assumptions like that is foolish. If he had mental health problems, he was very possibly vulnerable.

[bartelby]

If he had mental health problems, he was very possibly vulnerable.

That's exactly what I was about to post...

[branjosef]

I think to many people are out for a buck. I think there needs to be laws making it harder to sue people. It's just too easy to do. This man should get no money. He knew what he was doing was was in no way a victim. With respect to the nurse. She should be fired for unethical conduct with a patient and loose her certification. Had she become involved with him when he was no longer a patient under her care, then she would be fine, but her actions are also just as bad. Could you imagine if it had been reversed. If he had been the nurse, they probably would have charged him with rape or something because the law is so biased against males.

[bartelby]

He knew what he was doing was was in no way a victim.

Are you an expert in mental health?

[branjosef]

Are you an expert in mental health?

Since 2003. I've worked in mental health, managed an inpatient psychiatric nursing ward, as well as managed a psych clinic that helps soldiers suffering from PTSD and various other ailments. Sadly I see patient/staff stuff from time to time.

[bartelby]

So you know how ridiculous unfounded your comment was.

[branjosef]

So you know how ridiculous your comment was. Considering you don't know any facts.


No comment in a forum is ridiculous. I was merely offering my opinion based on what I read.

Edit: Unfounded is better.. I was just offering my thoughts

[bartelby]

No comment in a forum is ridiculous. I was merely offering my opinion based on what I read.

Edit: Unfounded is better.. I was just offering my thoughts

My experience is from the patient side, so my opinion is based on that.

[branjosef]

My experience is from the patient side, so my opinion is based on that.

I have found in my experience that the mental health field is littered with people who have problems themselves. We use to joke that you go into mental health to find answers to your own problems. Alot of people who work in the field have a genuine desire to want to help others but in that lies the problem, because a genuine desire to want to care for someone or help them with their problems could be a sign of codependency so you do get a percentage of caregivers with codependency issues which is what it sounds like in this case. She should have been professional enough to separate herself from her patient mentally instead of allowing it to develop the way it did. Alot of caregivers do a disservice to their patients when they cross boundaries

[skunk]

I think to many people are out for a buck. I think there needs to be laws making it harder to sue people. It's just too easy to do. This man should get no money. He knew what he was doing was was in no way a victim.

Since 2003. I've worked in mental health, managed an inpatient psychiatric nursing ward, as well as managed a psych clinic that helps soldiers suffering from PTSD and various other ailments. Sadly I see patient/staff stuff from time to time.In view of your apparent experience in the field, your snap judgement about this particular case appears even more foolish. If the man's story is true, then this is clearly a case of medical malpractice, and he should have every right to sue. Either way, you above all should know that there is not nearly enough information in the article for anybody to arrive at any meaningful position with regard to liability. Do you indulge in many summary executions dismissals in your line of work?

[AppleMatt]

Kinda have to agree with AppleMatt on this one.
I absolutely agree with AppleMatt here.

Hurrah! It's a good day ;)

I didn't think this thread would pop up again, how strange.

professional misconduct by abusing the power differential is another...abuse the therapeutic relationship with one of my patients, I would be more accountable than they were.

I don't think it can be said more succinctly than that, because that's exactly what happened here.

He should be suing the nurse, not the hospital. Instead, he is simply going for the deep pockets.

I see where you're coming from, I really do. I think the best way to reconcile it would be that the law allows people to sue employers (through vicarious liability) because the majority of people aren't insured whereas their employers are. If someone, through mistake or malice, impacts negatively on your life then you deserve to be fully compensated for this. Not allowing us to sue employers would create a bigger injustice than being allowed to, and the insurance premium shouldering the burden.

His behavior was stupid, but it was hers that was unethical. I mean, this is a person being treated in an addiction center. If I did something like this to my patient, I would expect to be held severely accountable.

Definitely, it's indicative of a lack of professional boundaries and a poor understanding of both the human condition and what the role as a mental healthcare provider is.

My first college-level psychology class was a human sexuality class, and one of the guest lecturers, who was a therapist, during her talk, was quite serious and said, "DO NOT SLEEP WITH YOUR PATIENTS." I thought it was quite funny at the time -- I still do, because it would seem so unnatural to me and obviously wrong. But somehow, it happens. And it isn't even just 60-year-old white men who think they're part of some boys club. It happens, more often than we admit, all across the spectrum.

And it's not okay.

It's scary. Many relationships don't get to that stage, but they definitely fall into the well-researched 'creepy' category. It's so horrifically damaging, especially to the young previously abused girls.

This sounds like abuse of a vulnerable patient, and if it had been a male nurse with a vulnerable female patient, surely nobody would be in any doubt about culpability. If he did jump into oncoming traffic when she lost her job, it shows that either he was very psychologically vulnerable, or that she manipulated him into thinking it was his fault, or both.

Good point. I think sometimes people go for the 'attention seeking' or 'responsibility' cards too quickly. Looking at the facts objectively, we can see there are a number of behaviors that are not normal. The reason behind these is, at this point, largely irrelevant, it simply confirms that this is a person who requires assistance of some form. This alone quite amply demonstrates he was vulnerable.

As for whoever said words to the effect of 'he made his bed, so lie in it'...It's amazing what people will do when the see 'the keys'. This power difference doesn't stop the day they are released/leave/move on, they most certainly remain open to abuse.

AppleMatt

[mkrishnan]

Not allowing us to sue employers would create a bigger injustice than being allowed to, and the insurance premium shouldering the burden.

I agree, and I think to some extent beyond this, the lawsuits have a place because malpractice torts and their punitive judgments do tend to deter negligence (unlike, say, some criminal punishments like capital punishment that do not).

I don't agree really with anything branjosef was trying to say, but to his/her point that sexual or romantic relationships between patients and their providers occur, then the torts have a place to encourage healthcare organizations to work harder to educate their employees and make sure these things do not happen.

Alternatively, I'm certainly open to other possibilities beyond pure negligence on the nurse and organization's part, to skunk's point. Perhaps the nurse's behavior too was exacerbated by psychiatric illness. In this case, other questions come up. If this nurse had a disorder that caused her to be unable to perform ethically in the patient/provider relationship, then why was this not known and why was this nurse allowed to practice in the first place?

In the end, from my perspective (and I am primarily on the provider side, although I do receive services of course, also) a nurse sleeping with a patient is unethical on the nurse's side and wrong, and I think that's non-negotiable, and the system and the nurse both need to be accountable for this breach of the patients' trust. Why it began, why it was allowed to continue, whether it was preventable, how future patients can be protected, and what form of legal response is the strongest deterrent, etc, are all open questions to me.

[bartelby]

She should have been professional enough to separate herself from her patient mentally instead of allowing it to develop the way it did. Alot of caregivers do a disservice to their patients when they cross boundaries

So you've now changed your mind that the guy was entirely to fault as you suggested in your other post?

This man should get no money. He knew what he was doing was was in no way a victim.


People should also be aware that a lot of psychiatric drugs can change people perception of things. Making them vulnerable and open to suggestion.

[skunk]

SPeople should also be aware that a lot of psychiatric drugs can change people perception of things. Making them vulnerable and open to suggestion.Especially people who claim to be in the business of psychiatric care. The mind boggles, it really does...

[branjosef]

The guy is still responsible for his actions. Too many people like to scoff off responsibility for their behavior. You should know ...you said that you had experience from the patient side of the house. How many times did you go and complain about your life to someone without fully accepting your role in the situation. This situation is complicated. I will admit that. Sure he has a case to sue, but I still think that's not appropriate. He could of complained to the hospital and she would have been removed, but instead he sues. Pathetic like most patients

[AppleMatt]

The guy is still responsible for his actions. Too many people like to scoff off responsibility for their behavior. You should know ...you said that you had experience from the patient side of the house. How many times did you go and complain about your life to someone without fully accepting your role in the situation. This situation is complicated. I will admit that. Sure he has a case to sue, but I still think that's not appropriate. He could of complained to the hospital and she would have been removed, but instead he sues. Pathetic like most patients

QFT. Troll?

AppleMatt

[skunk]

Pathetic like most patientsI do not believe that anyone with such evident disdain for patients would be employed in a managerial post in a psychiatric ward. You should resign your post in favour of someone who cares. Disgraceful.

[SnowLeopard2008]

This man is disgusting. He knows what he did was wrong.

[skunk]

This man is disgusting. He knows what he did was wrong.Are you talking about the man in the article, in which case I submit that you have no idea of the facts? There is a serious potential case of medical malpractice here for the court to decide.

[SnowLeopard2008]

The man in the article. I think sueing the Nurse is going to far. Again this is my opinion, make of it what you will.

[skunk]

The man in the article. I think sueing the Nurse is going to far. Again this is my opinion, make of it what you will.Your entirely unfounded and unsupported opinion. To reach such a firm and partisan conclusion without any evidence whatever is vacuously judgmental.

[bartelby]

How many times did you go and complain about your life to someone without fully accepting your role in the situation.

Well once really. I went in with a complaint and it's taken 5 years to get a proper diagnosis.

My "role" in the situation began and ended with being ill. Agian you are judging without knowing any facts