Apple's U.S. Market Share Continues to Grow [Archive]

MacRumors

Jul 16, 2008, 05:43 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

A pair of quarterly research reports released today reveal that Apple is continuing to experience growing U.S. market share among PC shipments.

Gartner's report (http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=724111) pegs Apple's share of U.S. PC shipments for the second quarter of 2008 at 8.5%, up from 6.4% in the second quarter of 2007. Apple's U.S. shipments increased 38.1% year-over-year, far outpacing the total industry shipment growth of 4.2% and allowing Apple to pass Acer for the third position in the U.S. rankings.

http://images.macrumors.com/article/2008/07/16/184019-gartner_2Q08_us.png
Gartner's Preliminary U.S. PC Vendor Unit Shipment Estimates for 2Q08

Meanwhile, IDC's report (http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS21349408) places Apple in a virtual tie with Acer for third place in U.S. market share at 7.8% in 2Q08, up from 6.2% in 2Q07. IDC's estimates yield shipment growth for Apple of 31.7% year-over-year in an overall market growing at only 3.6%.

Despite these gains in the U.S. market, Apple still has not broken into the top five vendors for worldwide shipments in either survey. Toshiba continues to hold the fifth spot with a 4.4% market share in a worldwide PC market that experienced 15-16% growth in shipments year-over-year.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/07/16/apples-u-s-market-share-continues-to-grow/)

zombitronic

Jul 16, 2008, 05:46 PM

Getting iPhones into millions of hands can only help these numbers for next quarter.

WildCowboy

Jul 16, 2008, 05:47 PM

andiwm2003

Jul 16, 2008, 05:54 PM

wow, that means probably the apples market share in home computers is over 10%. great news. that means more and more software developers making programs and also more peripherals.

mojohanna

Jul 16, 2008, 05:55 PM

For reference, here are Gartner's market share numbers for Apple by quarter for the last two and half years. Note that Apple experiences greater seasonal fluctuations than many other vendors due to their strength in the seasonal education market. But the trend is clear. :)

2Q08: 8.5%
1Q08: 6.6%

4Q07: 6.1%
3Q07: 8.1%
2Q07: 6.4%
1Q07: 5.2%

4Q06: 5.1%
3Q06: 6.2%
2Q06: 4.6%
1Q06: 4.0%

WildCowboy, are these based on Apple's fiscal quarters or a typical calendar year quarter. Just a point of clarification, not contention. Thanks!

11800506

Jul 16, 2008, 05:55 PM

Hopefully growing market share won't lead to even further QC problems

WoFat

Jul 16, 2008, 05:57 PM

Funny... I don't see Psystar numbers in here yet.

thelem

Jul 16, 2008, 05:58 PM

Note that Apple experiences greater seasonal fluctuations than many other vendors due to their strength in the seasonal education market.

So what are you saying, that we can expect to see Apple breaking 10% next quarter? :D

ArmyKnight12

Jul 16, 2008, 05:59 PM

Awesome news!

law guy

Jul 16, 2008, 06:00 PM

I still have yet to meet someone with an Acer computer. I can't recall them at business meetings. I don't seem them in the wild. It's hard to believe that they are 8 percent.

Macmaniac

Jul 16, 2008, 06:00 PM

This is good for my stock, keep it up.

Oh and nice to see two non-iPhone related stories in a row.

WildCowboy

Jul 16, 2008, 06:01 PM

WildCowboy, are these based on Apple's fiscal quarters or a typical calendar year quarter. Just a point of clarification, not contention. Thanks!

They are calendar quarters.

So what are you saying, that we can expect to see Apple breaking 10% next quarter? :D

Well, the previous two years have shown a 1.6-1.7% bump from Q2 to Q3, so...

*gets out calculator*
*punches some numbers*

Looks like it wouldn't be unreasonable! :)

I still have yet to meet someone with an Acer computer. I can't recall them at business meetings. I don't seem them in the wild. It's hard to believe that they are 8 percent.

Keep in mind that Gateway is now owned by Acer. Not that I see many Gatway computers around either...

dongmin

Jul 16, 2008, 06:03 PM

For reference, here are Gartner's market share numbers for Apple by quarter for the last two and half years. Note that Apple experiences greater seasonal fluctuations than many other vendors due to their strength in the seasonal education market. But the trend is clear. :)

2Q08: 8.5%
1Q08: 6.6%

4Q07: 6.1%
3Q07: 8.1%
2Q07: 6.4%
1Q07: 5.2%

4Q06: 5.1%
3Q06: 6.2%
2Q06: 4.6%
1Q06: 4.0%

Right, but if you track Q2, Apple's gone from 4.6 to 6.4 to now 8.5, roughly 2 percentage points per year, which isn't too bad. At this trajectory, Apple will hit the 10% mark in a year. Not too shabby.

Apple's next big challenge is to grow its market share world-wide. Relying on the U.S. market is not the smartest thing to do right now.

IJ Reilly

Jul 16, 2008, 06:28 PM

IJ Reilly

Jul 16, 2008, 06:35 PM

Right, but if you track Q2, Apple's gone from 4.6 to 6.4 to now 8.5, roughly 2 percentage points per year, which isn't too bad. At this trajectory, Apple will hit the 10% mark in a year. Not too shabby.

Check me on this, but if the trend continues, Apple's market share next year at this time will be 12.5%.

queshy

Jul 16, 2008, 06:36 PM

twoodcc

Jul 16, 2008, 06:43 PM

great news. and the iphone will keep the numbers going up

ZeelessOne

Jul 16, 2008, 06:55 PM

Wow. Apple and Acer beat Toshiba? Most people I know have never even heard of Acer!

I wish ASUS was up there. Better yet, I wish more people knew about Clevo/Sager!

I know so many more things about the notebook market than most people...

PlaceofDis

Jul 16, 2008, 07:04 PM

good news for apple. marketshare is just sales though. makes you wonder what the installed base is.

Marx55

Jul 16, 2008, 07:05 PM

The day the Mac reaches 25% market share, Windows will be wiped out from planet Earth in three years. Windows is maintained by sheer ignorance and inertia.

rowanmwilliams

Jul 16, 2008, 07:06 PM

Looking good apple!
Doing a really basic statistical calculation over the next year we should see apple hitting the 11.7% mark.

So if ceteris paribus and Apple increase there Q2'08-2Q'09 growth by 38.1% we should see apple apple increasing Q2'09 shipments by 532.26, thus bring the total to 1929.26. This would mean 2Q'09 would hit 11.7%.

As for the Acer number they are relatively popular here in Australia. There laptops are sold in many major discount department stores, and there desktop line is sold in some of the more up market department stores. I have seen quite a few around where i live, my mate next door has 2.

gnasher729

Jul 16, 2008, 07:21 PM

Dell/HP have quite a comfortable lead over Apple. I don't think Apple is aiming for #1 here, though. Dell and HP have lower profit margins per computer. That's why Apple doesn't really care about conquering the sub $1000 machine market, which is where they would have to move into if they do want to have a shot at beating HP or Dell.

I'd love to see the same chart, but not with number of units sold, but revenues instead. As it is now, a Mac Pro 8 core with 16 GB of RAM and 4 TB hard drives counts the same as the cheapest PC held together by a bit of rubber band.

And why does Gartner not publish world wide numbers a bit further down the list, lets say up to Apple's position?

jlbrown23

Jul 16, 2008, 07:25 PM

Dell/HP have quite a comfortable lead over Apple. I don't think Apple is aiming for #1 here, though. Dell and HP have lower profit margins per computer. That's why Apple doesn't really care about conquering the sub $1000 machine market, which is where they would have to move into if they do want to have a shot at beating HP or Dell.

I'd love to see what Apple's DOLLAR share of sales is. If the unit sales are 8.5%, the dollar sales share could be twice that(& if not twice, certainly at least 1.5X).

gkarris

Jul 16, 2008, 07:40 PM

ZeelessOne

Jul 16, 2008, 07:41 PM

The day the Mac reaches 25% market share, Windows will be wiped out from planet Earth in three years. Windows is maintained by sheer ignorance and inertia.

That's a moutful and borderline hypocritical. You're saying more than 60% of computers (60 is extremely low for you're prediction) will just vanish off the face of the Earth?

The Windows name won't die anytime soon. The closest thing will be some version of Windows not based on NT well more than 5 years down the line. But it'll still be called Windows.

Don't forget, Apple was in a rouch place before it introduced Mac OS X, far rougher than Windows is now or will be any time soon. Microsoft might be making a Windows X as we speak. After 7, there will be 8 and 9 an then... X!

By then, Mac OS X will be at 10.10, or dar I say, X.X!

nd still no one will even know who Clevo is... and poor Compal!

BenRoethig

Jul 16, 2008, 07:45 PM

!¡ V ¡!

Jul 16, 2008, 07:45 PM

When it states it as :apple: Market Share are they referring to:

Combined:

Mac OS X (Computer and Server)
iPhone OS X (iPhone and iPod Touch)

or

Just Mac OS X (Computer and or Server)

If this is the case it could be the iPhone and iPod Touch contributing to the majority of the increase.

It states Mobile PC have the most growth, does this state that the iPhone and iPod Touch are considered a Mobile PC.

BenRoethig

Jul 16, 2008, 07:47 PM

iPhones don't count as computers.

clevin

Jul 16, 2008, 07:49 PM

I don't think Apple is aiming for #1 here, though.

nice way of saying "no chance" .....:)

im getting tired of all these data already, every now and then apple put out some data from somewhere claiming itself good as gold, its been "outpace industry" for years. And still 8.5% in a quarter shipment...

I don't really care these number anymore. Apple is rich, i get that. next time show me global user base number when it reaches 10%, if ever.

Bobjob186

Jul 17, 2008, 12:55 AM

one day....

gcmexico

Jul 17, 2008, 01:06 AM

this is great news!! but I hope Apple doesn't get too big, too big means Microsoft...Apple has to keep it's edge!

baslotto

Jul 17, 2008, 01:17 AM

Great for the stock-market but closer to viruses times...
I don't know what I prefer.

I definitely should invest more in the stock-market for now!

Whorehay

Jul 17, 2008, 02:21 AM

Great for the stock-market but closer to viruses times...
I don't know what I prefer.

I definitely should invest more in the stock-market for now!

I don't think you should :p

Macmel

Jul 17, 2008, 02:32 AM

kironin

Jul 17, 2008, 03:49 AM

I work in Science and 10 years ago you couldn't see a PC in a lab: only the new PowerPC G3s were there (still one working in my former lab). Nowadays I would say is 50/50 and the tendency is to reduce the number of Macs, at least in some countries, and leave them for specific tasks. You have to do very specific things like Image/video/sound editing or use very demanding software in order to see a clear difference.

huh? What do you work in science as ? a secretary?

Some of the best science software for Apple comes from scientists in Europe. Just check out what these guys have been doing
http://mekentosj.com/

I find it hard to believe that given here how many guys I know here tinker with OSX and/or Linux, and others that I know from Europe that what you are saying is just nonsense.

RedTomato

Jul 17, 2008, 04:21 AM

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 05:24 AM

huh? What do you work in science as ? a secretary?

Some of the best science software for Apple comes from scientists in Europe. Just check out what these guys have been doing
http://mekentosj.com/

I find it hard to believe that given here how many guys I know here tinker with OSX and/or Linux, and others that I know from Europe that what you are saying is just nonsense.

I think if you look at the global market share the figures speak for themselves. Apple have an excellent customer base in the US which continues to grow - although I need to check to see if growth rate has increased or if it's running at the 35-40% for 2008 - but outside of that they're a minor player.

Insulting someone on the basis of anecdotal evidence when the sales data doesn't support your position isn't exactly clever.

t0mat0

Jul 17, 2008, 05:47 AM

Arn/ Mods - is there any way of showing the projected iPhone 3G sales on top of this?

The Gartner numbers show per 1,000's sold - i.e. 1,000 on the numbers on the chart = 1,000,000 = 1 million. With Apple estimated to have sold > 1,000,000 handsets over the weekend alone, surely you could reclassify the iPhone as a Personal Computer that does telephony?

The figures are for a quarter. So From Table 1:
2008 Shipments based on quadrupling the estimate -Preliminary Worldwide PC Vendor Unit Shipment Estimates for 2008:
HP 52,112
Dell 44.8 million
Acer 27.0 million
Lenovo 22.3 million
Toshiba 12.5 million
Others 128.6million
Total 287.4 million

Looking at the US market, using Table 2:

Table 2
Preliminary U.S. PC Vendor Unit Shipment Estimates for 2Q08 (Thousands of Units)

2008 Shipments (as before, just quadrupling figures. It's a rough estimate, don't grumble!)
Dell 21.0 million
HP 16.6 million
Apple 5.5 million
Acer 5.3 million
Toshiba 3.6 million
Others 13.7 million
Total 66.0 million

Data includes desk-based PCs, mobile PCs and X86 servers.

So to put that another way, the iPhone 3G has *already* sold over a quarter of the units Toshiba plans is roughly projected to sell in the whole of 2008...

The iPhone can do VNC, it has a full blooded OS, so why not call at leasta personal computer by proxy?

AlexisV

Jul 17, 2008, 05:53 AM

Are Apple going for maximum market share though?

They aren't a pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap manufacturer like Dell.

They will always be fairly niche, unless they drop the prices and go for hard sell.

But then they wouldn't be Apple. They'd just be another computer company.

137489

Jul 17, 2008, 06:17 AM

I still have yet to meet someone with an Acer computer. I can't recall them at business meetings. I don't seem them in the wild. It's hard to believe that they are 8 percent.

I have seen them, sitting on shelves at wal-mart :p

But seriously, we had a couple of people at one company I worked with buy one for their personal use. they were asking our I/t shop why they couldn't use it for work as it kept freezing up.

Really, there a couple here or there - but even the casing and keyboard look and feel cheap. I seen maybe 1 or 2 in a couple of homes, but not really. I think they are at 8% as people may be buying them for their kids in elementary school as an introduction to a first computer. after all the ones I have seen are sub-$400

137489

Jul 17, 2008, 06:49 AM

If Apple sold a sub-$1000 machine that is better than the mini - then they will over take market share, just on the better OS and the better software by 3rd-party vendors over what is available on windows.

However, I would not want to sacrifice quality to get there. right now (aside from Apple) there are 3 things lacking in the computer industry....

1. Good reliable systems.
2. Good Customer Service
3. Innovation.

Apple does a good job at all 3.

Apple could be number one, if there machines broke just before the warrenty period and Apple did not honor warrenties and gave hassles on trying to use your Apple care - forcing you to buy a new machine everytime (Hell, that is what Dell does - I have experienced it first hand).

But then again, who wants to be like that? Would you want to be another weed in the pile of doo doo, or would you want to be the beautiful Rose that everyone stops and looks at?

PLus, I think Acer only has marketshare listed so high because:

Acer Buys Gateway and eMachine - Club CDFreaks - Knowledge is PowerYo- Another acquisition that may be good for the consumer - or not-eh! Read about it here: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2175913,00.asp.

Acer buys 75% of Packard Bell parent - Network WorldJan 31, 2008 ... Taiwanese PC vendor Acer has purchased 75% of the parent company of European electronics maker Packard Bell for €31 million ($45.8 million), ...
www.networkworld.com/news/2008/013108-acer-buys-75-percent-of.html - 79k - Cached - Similar pages

Electronista | Acer buys E-TEN, leaps into smartphonesMar 3, 2008 ... News on - Acer buys E-TEN, leaps into smartphones.
www.electronista.com/articles/08/03/03/acer.buys.e.ten/ - 89k - Cached - Similar pages

Acer Buys Pivotal Networking - IT Channel - IT Channel News by CRN ...Boosting its networking portfolio, Acer Inc. has acquired Pivotal Networking Inc., a maker of multifunction access routers.
www.crn.com/it-channel/18805587 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

Acer buys up Asian HP sales outfit
To compete the better with its competitors
MAJOR TAIWANESE MANUFACTURER Acer has bought a majority stake in a firm which sells Hewlett Packard kit in Taiwan.
The firm told the Economic News that it paid nearly seven and a half million US dollars for Ivan Information Technology, a spin off of HP that started on the island in 1992.

Acer will use the subsidiary to assist Hewlett Packard to compete with IBM in Taiwan and will provide computer services to distributors in the region.

But the tie up will also mean redundancies of products that Ivan was touting, and therefore quite probably a few jobs will lapse too.

Acer and HP will work together to sell products, some of which will be made by the Taiwanese company's subsidiary, Wistron

This is why Acer's numbers are so high... they are buying everything up and also assisting HP overseas. I bet all the company's sales numbers get rolled under Acer in the reports, which would be mis-leading

christian_k

Jul 17, 2008, 07:04 AM

Apple's next big challenge is to grow its market share world-wide. Relying on the U.S. market is not the smartest thing to do right now.

I wonder when will they take that challenge? Here in Germany there is no Apple store. There is nearly no advertising and if there is advertising it is usually for iPod. Deparment stores and computer shops almost never sell Macs. You won't find Macs here in the edu sector (unless the institution is media or design related).

I work for a small games company. Whe have ported one of our games to the Mac, the GM is ready, but it was not even possible to find a distributor willing to sell the Mac version here. We are going to do it ourselves (online).

Christian

Shasterball

Jul 17, 2008, 07:16 AM

Let's see how Apple stands at the end of the year. Hopefully up for all of 2008 vs all of 2007.

Shasterball

Jul 17, 2008, 07:19 AM

2. Good Customer Service

I dunno about that one. Granted, I haven't had that many problems, so things are ok. But, when I called to get help with the fact that my Macbook Pro was dropping wifi (a HUGE problem posted EVERYWHERE and affecting thousands) the three separate instances I called, they had no idea what I was talking about and no suggestion other than to reset my router.

137489

Jul 17, 2008, 07:26 AM

I wonder if Dell's sales figures are flawed and mis-leading in some sense.

Here is why:

Dell has teamed up with Goodwill Industries (state assisted program / thriftstore for those who have special employment needs -also offers programs to get welfare, former drug/alcohol addicted people, and handi-capped - skills and get them back into the work force). What happens here, is for every computer that is donated (regardless of brand) does not go directly on the store shelves. Instead, they are sent to Dell, where they strip all the working parts out of them, and then:

1. Sells or donates the parts separately back to goodwill to put on their shelves.
2. Assembles Older Dell Computers and sells them at goodwill (under a Dell Poster) for like $100. Listing the specs and what the computer would be good for.

I do not know how the program truely works - whether they are sold back to Goodwill as working computer, or Dell donates them back....... I would have to research the program more.

The Goodwill in Mount Airy NC has a large computer section with Dell Tested/Certified PC's. I was shocked that they had about 100 Linksys routers (the home blue ones that CompUsa used to sell for $70) for $10. they also had 6 Dell PC's that day selling for $100-$200. Most running XP.

This is one thing that I will not bash Dell for, as this type of program is needed in our area. I was kind of doing the same thing, except I was giving them away rather than re-selling them.

But I would hope that Dell is not figuring that into their sales firgures, as they are potentially reselling the same machine 2 or 3 times over.

eastrow

Jul 17, 2008, 07:48 AM

It's called an iphone, and while most people still want to look at it as a smartphone, I submit that it's the best way for Apple its platform into the hands of users outside of the US. They may never buy a Mac, but they sure will be using their iphone as an computing platform. And the biggest irony is all other sub $1000 systems have puny margins - Apple has figure out a way to do this with margins above 30%. Brilliant!

I would also like to see dollar share vs. unit share - that's one metric that can open a lot of eyes - throw in Apple's margins and you would see how Apple's >10% share could easily be more valuable that another companies > 20% share.

If Apple sold a sub-$1000 machine that is better than the mini - then they will over take market share, just on the better OS and the better software by 3rd-party vendors over what is available on windows.

However, I would not want to sacrifice quality to get there. right now (aside from Apple) there are 3 things lacking in the computer industry....

1. Good reliable systems.
2. Good Customer Service
3. Innovation.

Apple does a good job at all 3.

Apple could be number one, if there machines broke just before the warrenty period and Apple did not honor warrenties and gave hassles on trying to use your Apple care - forcing you to buy a new machine everytime (Hell, that is what Dell does - I have experienced it first hand).

But then again, who wants to be like that? Would you want to be another weed in the pile of doo doo, or would you want to be the beautiful Rose that everyone stops and looks at?

PLus, I think Acer only has marketshare listed so high because:

Acer Buys Gateway and eMachine - Club CDFreaks - Knowledge is PowerYo- Another acquisition that may be good for the consumer - or not-eh! Read about it here: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2175913,00.asp.

Acer buys 75% of Packard Bell parent - Network WorldJan 31, 2008 ... Taiwanese PC vendor Acer has purchased 75% of the parent company of European electronics maker Packard Bell for €31 million ($45.8 million), ...
www.networkworld.com/news/2008/013108-acer-buys-75-percent-of.html - 79k - Cached - Similar pages

Electronista | Acer buys E-TEN, leaps into smartphonesMar 3, 2008 ... News on - Acer buys E-TEN, leaps into smartphones.
www.electronista.com/articles/08/03/03/acer.buys.e.ten/ - 89k - Cached - Similar pages

Acer Buys Pivotal Networking - IT Channel - IT Channel News by CRN ...Boosting its networking portfolio, Acer Inc. has acquired Pivotal Networking Inc., a maker of multifunction access routers.
www.crn.com/it-channel/18805587 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

Acer buys up Asian HP sales outfit
To compete the better with its competitors
MAJOR TAIWANESE MANUFACTURER Acer has bought a majority stake in a firm which sells Hewlett Packard kit in Taiwan.
The firm told the Economic News that it paid nearly seven and a half million US dollars for Ivan Information Technology, a spin off of HP that started on the island in 1992.

Acer will use the subsidiary to assist Hewlett Packard to compete with IBM in Taiwan and will provide computer services to distributors in the region.

But the tie up will also mean redundancies of products that Ivan was touting, and therefore quite probably a few jobs will lapse too.

Acer and HP will work together to sell products, some of which will be made by the Taiwanese company's subsidiary, Wistron

This is why Acer's numbers are so high... they are buying everything up and also assisting HP overseas. I bet all the company's sales numbers get rolled under Acer in the reports, which would be mis-leading

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 07:49 AM

I wonder if Dell's sales figures are flawed and mis-leading in some sense.

They're not - these are estimated new unit sales only and don't count the refurb market (which, if they did, wold also boost Apple's sales).

On a slightly different topic, does anyone have the absolute numbers for Apple PC sales for the last eight quarters? I'm trying to get a feel for whether the growth rate is accelerating or stable.

PurrBall

Jul 17, 2008, 08:36 AM

Sorry to ruin the party but in the same amount of time Vista gained 355% market share putting it from 4.54% to 16.14% -- that's more than double the Mac.

gnasher729

Jul 17, 2008, 08:46 AM

Sorry to ruin the party but in the same amount of time Vista gained 355% market share putting it from 4.54% to 16.14% -- that's more than double the Mac.

Wow. How much market share did Windows XP lose?

gnasher729

Jul 17, 2008, 08:50 AM

Why do so many people recommend macs to their mum / family relatives / granny?

Because they are too lazy to give free tech support all the time!

(Quote from a Linux developer: The family has a Mac in the living room, so that I have time to play with the Linux box in the basement :rolleyes: )

maelstromr

Jul 17, 2008, 09:11 AM

There's a big problem for Apple: the world doesn't end at the US border (as surprising as it may sound for some people).
I'm sorry, but I still see very difficult to justify a 1900 euro MBP versus a 600 euro HP or DELL if all I'm going to do is check my email, browse the internet and watch some videos. Because, and that's an absolute truth, most people don't use their computers for work,a nd even if they do, they use Office-like programs and little more. You don't need a Mac Pro or MBP for that.
If you are a gamer and you are ready to pay the extra price (instead of buying a PS3 or Xbox or whatever which are actually designed for that purpose), again Apple doesn't offer the right product anyway.
I'm European, and all people I know have computers at home, but no one owns a Mac. Only some of them use them at work. I work in Science and 10 years ago you couldn't see a PC in a lab: only the new PowerPC G3s were there (still one working in my former lab). Nowadays I would say is 50/50 and the tendency is to reduce the number of Macs, at least in some countries, and leave them for specific tasks. You have to do very specific things like Image/video/sound editing or use very demanding software in order to see a clear difference.

This was a ridiculous post - what is at all different about the US market situation with Apple five years ago and this statement other than using euros instead of dollars. As we've gone over on this forum time and time again, the "cost difference" argument is simply a fallacy born from a 1998 understanding of mac products. If you factor in ANY level of quality, Apple computers are tremendously more cost effective than any PC on the market. Sounds like sour grapes that Apple has limited interest in European marketing right now. :rolleyes:

bytethese

Jul 17, 2008, 09:17 AM

I need to buy some Apple stock! :)

ipedro

Jul 17, 2008, 09:19 AM

The iPhone (and iPod Touch) is a trojan horse Mac. It runs a version of OS X and provides the same ease of use and simple user interface.

By all accounts, Apple should have named it a Mac but chose to market it as a phone to give it a focus in a highly profitable market, prevent customer confusion and circumvent the misinformation about the Mac.

So if you count the iPhone in here, Apple has a very respectable US market share and a growing worldwide one.

If Apple releases a "tablet Mac" based on the familiar iPhone OS and leveraging its – by then – huge app library and business market penetration, this Mac will have a very high adoption rate. Microsoft won't know what hit it.

I'll throw in here a prediction that OS X (iPhone + Mac) will be the dominant OS by 2012.

Clive At Five

Jul 17, 2008, 09:29 AM

Superdelphinus

Jul 17, 2008, 09:31 AM

wow, that means probably the apples market share in home computers is over 10%. great news. that means more and more software developers making programs and also more peripherals.

not sure if you can really equate the two given that windows still holds a ~90% market share, which is more critical to software development

dejo

Jul 17, 2008, 09:47 AM

I'm sorry, but I still see very difficult to justify a 1900 euro MBP versus a 600 euro HP or DELL if all I'm going to do is check my email, browse the internet and watch some videos.
If that's all your doing on your laptop, a less expensive MacBook is plenty sufficient. A MacBook Pro is overkill. :)

IJ Reilly

Jul 17, 2008, 10:11 AM

not sure if you can really equate the two given that windows still holds a ~90% market share, which is more critical to software development

I think you can, to some degree at least. When the Mac's market share was plummeting, developers were fleeing the Mac software market. It's not entirely about market share, it's also about the confidence that the Mac platform will survive, or even thrive.

maelstromr

Jul 17, 2008, 10:31 AM

As weird as it may sound, I don't find this to be the greatest of news. I think a lot of people don't realize that the larger Apple gets, the less personal they become.

I don't feel as well-taken-care-of by Apple as I used to since they've busied themselves by "appealing to the masses."

Shareholders should be happy though. Too bad they're ruining the feel of the company.

-Clive

That's fair enough I think, but I remember to my early mac support experiences in 1992 when the only option was through a paid telephone labyrinth with people who kinda understood how to fix things. Compare that to 2008's Apple stores and genius bars, incredible product availability in major retailers (remember when we had to go to one of the 4 mac-specialty stores in the country or order on the phone), extensive apple care support and the current intel/mass production nature of the hardware it is 1000x easier to get a mac fixed or have a problem diagnosed within a few minutes, let alone a day. Yes, I think some quality control issues have popped up but generally speaking I love that for the first time in my computing life I can acquire mac products as easy and with much greater customer satisfaction than I can PC products. For now I say grow Apple, grow!
:apple:

KevanDual2.5

Jul 17, 2008, 10:35 AM

The figures are encouraging. But i think Apple could easily boost their Global figures by spending a few of their spare $ on advertising. While shiny Apple Retail Stores do the marketing thing extremely well, they are quite scantly spread out with the USA. As an example, Scotland has a population of around 5 million. We have 1 Apple Retail Store, which is located in Glasgow [largest city]. Our capital [Edinburgh] has no official Apple presence. We have a couple of other 'University' cities. Again, no Apple presence. I can say for sure if this is the case around the rest of the world. But with various vendors advertising constant cheap deals on Windows PC's, it is easy to see why people don't come over to the way of Mac.

A few million $ on some good advertising would go a long way to help boost the Global marketshare.

What like is Apple presence etc in your area??

maelstromr

Jul 17, 2008, 10:44 AM

The figures are encouraging. But i think Apple could easily boos their Global figures by spending a few of their spare $ on advertising. While shiny Apple Retail Stores do the marketing thing extremely well, they are quite scantly spread out with the USA. As an example, Scotland has a population of around 5 million. We have 1 Apple Retail Store, which is located in Glasgow [largest city]. Our capital [Edinburgh] has no official Apple presence. We have a couple of other 'University' cities. Again, no Apple presence. I can say for sure if this is the case around the rest of the world. But with various vendors advertising constant cheap deals on Windows PC's, it is easy to see why people don't come over to the way of Mac.

A few million $ on some good advertising would go a long way to help boost the Global marketshare.

What like is Apple presence etc in your area??

No offense, but a country of 5 million is smaller than each of the first 21 largest states in the US by population. I don't mean to start a US-Euro flame war but instead point out that building multiple stores in scotland, or wherever, and spending tons on advertising there is synonymous with spending tons of money trying to get the word out to Montana or Wyoming and the 5 people there. Someday Apple will get there, but they are growing and starting from 0 stores and limited advertising, Apple can't be everywhere at once and the little guys will come later. Also, Apple IS an American company and all the trade/tech issues with their products are settled here first and easiest. Of course they will market heavily in the US because it's cheaper to do so. Look at the slow iTunes store spread as an example of the interference of European rules and trade practices with Apple's business.

tmelvin

Jul 17, 2008, 10:47 AM

Will this make Safari snappier? LOL

Just kidding...I think this is great news. I too hope that they don't get too big, and forget about quality, and continuing to keep OS X and Mac what it is...

bogman12

Jul 17, 2008, 10:59 AM

Wow Apple on par with POS Acer?

Sad... sad..

KevanDual2.5

Jul 17, 2008, 11:01 AM

No offense, but a country of 5 million is smaller than each of the first 21 largest states in the US by population. I don't mean to start a US-Euro flame war but instead point out that building multiple stores in scotland, or wherever, and spending tons on advertising there is synonymous with spending tons of money trying to get the word out to Montana or Wyoming and the 5 people there. Someday Apple will get there, but they are growing and starting from 0 stores and limited advertising, Apple can't be everywhere at once and the little guys will come later. Also, Apple IS an American company and all the trade/tech issues with their products are settled here first and easiest. Of course they will market heavily in the US because it's cheaper to do so. Look at the slow iTunes store spread as an example of the interference of European rules and trade practices with Apple's business.

Your points are valid. However, i gave Scotland as an example. It's where i live. I am not suggesting that Apple should spend $m in Scotland. But lots of little pieces make up one big piece.

One of the other huge problems is that average Joe sees the cost of an Apple product in US$, does a quick conversion, then compares it to the price he would pay for that device in his country.

MacBook price of $1099 equates to £548.99. But the UK price for the same item is £699. Average Joe thinks this is a rip off.

dejo

Jul 17, 2008, 11:04 AM

One of the other huge problems is that average Joe sees the cost of an Apple product in US$, does a quick conversion, then compares it to the price he would pay for that device in his country.

MacBook price of $1099 equates to £548.99. But the UK price for the same item is £699. Average Joe thinks this is a rip off.
Average Joe doesn't realize that US prices do not include taxes, for one. ;)

KevanDual2.5

Jul 17, 2008, 11:13 AM

Average Joe doesn't realize that US prices do not include taxes, for one. ;)

That's the point i am making. When you do the calculation on the price difference back to US$, the difference appears to be $300.

HymerSchmidt

Jul 17, 2008, 11:23 AM

I need to buy some Apple stock! :)

I needed to buy some in 2003.

IJ Reilly

Jul 17, 2008, 11:27 AM

That's the point i am making. When you do the calculation on the price difference back to US$, the difference appears to be $300.

Appears to be, but isn't. The prices for these goods haven't changed in either market -- they only appear to have changed because the dollar is weak now. At times when the dollar was strong, goods appeared to Americans to be cheaper abroad, but the only way to get those bargains was to travel abroad and convert those dollars into other currencies and spend them in that country. The exact same principle applies now. If you want to exercise the full value of your strong currencies, you must travel to the places where your currency is strong.

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 11:45 AM

This was a ridiculous post - what is at all different about the US market situation with Apple five years ago and this statement other than using euros instead of dollars. As we've gone over on this forum time and time again, the "cost difference" argument is simply a fallacy born from a 1998 understanding of mac products. If you factor in ANY level of quality, Apple computers are tremendously more cost effective than any PC on the market. Sounds like sour grapes that Apple has limited interest in European marketing right now. :rolleyes:

You really need to do some market research because this is complete nonsense.

maestro55

Jul 17, 2008, 11:54 AM

This is excellent news for Apple. I just hope that if Apple does reach the top it doesn't get like other companies and figure that since it is so good it won't have to work hard to stay the best. I mean look at Microsoft, they know their product will sell so they tend to not care so much about good engineering. The same is true with companies like Wal-Mart (I just hope my managers don't read these forums) where I have worked for over 2 years and I see that they know they are the number one retailer in the United States and that they don't need to care about customer service and really lately they don't care so much about keeping their prices down either. I just gave two examples but the list goes on. Apple is already shown with the iPhone by choosing plastic to keep the cost down that they are more concerned about the bottom line than they are the quality of the product (though honestly, I can't fully back this argument because I haven't used the new iphone, I have heard that people were not too dissapointed with it, I mean look how many have sold and I will eventually get one).

rlmccormick

Jul 17, 2008, 11:59 AM

I still have yet to meet someone with an Acer computer. I can't recall them at business meetings. I don't seem them in the wild. It's hard to believe that they are 8 percent.

They are around. I believe however that they have a bigger share of the foriegn market. Asia specifically.

dXTC

Jul 17, 2008, 12:32 PM

I still have yet to meet someone with an Acer computer. I can't recall them at business meetings. I don't seem them in the wild. It's hard to believe that they are 8 percent.

My mother-in-law has an Acer Aspire desktop, which she got a little over a year ago when her HP Pavillion's motherboard died. (Both were Wal-Mart purchases.) She wanted something ultra-cheap for basic Internet and MS Office for her job, and she wanted it right then-- no mail-order.

Sure, it's an AMD Sempron on a no-name mobo with a case that would crumple if you looked at it cross-eyed, but it fit her nearly non-existent budget and it does what she wants. Oh well...

Cyburnclassic

Jul 17, 2008, 12:34 PM

Acer sales have dropped I see, looks like people are starting to know that Acer are Crap.

BRLawyer

Jul 17, 2008, 12:45 PM

The day the Mac reaches 25% market share, Windows will be wiped out from planet Earth in three years. Windows is maintained by sheer ignorance and inertia.

Absolutely, this is just a continuous trend...Apple has a fabulous lead in terms of design, OS, hardware reliability and overall quality, and the market is answering to these obvious facts after years of sheer ignorance, media bashing and monopolistic abuses by Microshaft.

The best desktop in the world? iMac.
The best portable in the world? MBP.
The best music players in the world? iPods.
The best smartphone in the world? iPhone.

Indeed, those that were living under the rocks or in the caves of the Windows world are finally seeing the light. And this is why MS is DEAD.

GO APPLE! TORA! TORA! TORA!

maelstromr

Jul 17, 2008, 12:46 PM

You really need to do some market research because this is complete nonsense.

A reply with no statement of fact or even theory...good comeback.

PS - Go read some of the forum threads for a while or ANY review of an apple product vs. PC over the last 5-6 years.

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 12:48 PM

Absolutely, this is just a continuous trend...Apple has a fabulous lead in terms of design, OS, hardware reliability and overall quality, and the market is answering to these obvious facts after years of sheer ignorance, media bashing and monopolistic abuses by Microshaft.

The best desktop in the world? iMac.
The best portable in the world? MBP.
The best music players in the world? iPods.
The best smartphone in the world? iPhone.

Indeed, those that were living under the rocks or in the caves of the Windows world are finally seeing the light. And this is why MS is DEAD.

GO APPLE! TORA! TORA! TORA!

Dell sold 500K units more than Q2 2007. Apple sold 300K more.

Reports of MS's demise are greatly exaggerated.

IJ Reilly

Jul 17, 2008, 01:01 PM

Dell sold 500K units more than Q2 2007. Apple sold 300K more.

Reports of MS's demise are greatly exaggerated.

Who cares about Dell's unit sales? The growth in the Windows PC market has been tiny, only 1.8% in the last year, according to the numbers. The Microsoft OEMs are doing little better than trading market share. They're beating each other up. Apple is actually growing the Mac's share of the market.

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 01:10 PM

Who cares about Dell's unit sales? The growth in the Windows PC market has been tiny, only 1.8% in the last year, according to the numbers. The Microsoft OEMs are doing little better than trading market share. They're beating each other up. Apple is actually growing the Mac's share of the market.

So the global increase of 16% is a figment of our imagination then?

I grant you that the US market is kind of saturated at the moment and that Windows based units are definitely cannibalising each other's sales whilst Apple's grow reasonably well. Fundamentally though the increase in real terms means that, despite a substantial advertising campaign rubbishing its competitor and the halo effect of the iPod and the iPhone, Apple's market share is still less than 10% of the US market and about 3.5%-4% of the global market. I'm sure Apple will grow a bit more but there's a definite ceiling there.

Which is not to say that we shouldn't be grateful that Apple provide a competitive stimulus because if MS had a total monopoly instead of simply an overwhelimg market share things would not be great for anyone.

surferfromuk

Jul 17, 2008, 01:29 PM

Even more remarkable: Subtracting out Apple's sales to arrive at the numbers for the Windows PC industry, we find that their sales have increased a paltry 1.8%, year-over-year, or 281,000 units. Apple alone increased their sales by 386,000 during the same period -- more than the rest of the industry combined.

This is a remarkably insightful observation.

No wonder Bill Gates left the company and is taking all his money with him - once again proving he's a smart guy!

Your figures are proof that MS must be perilously close to a net decrease in Windows shipments - if not already! What with the rise of Linux and Apple's increased momentum your figures when re-calculated in a year or two could have net PC shipments in the NEGATIVE!!

You have single-handedly established that historical market share is irrelevant because it's NOT new business. It's old business and it's disappearing FAST!

No wonder MS are going all out to get Yahoo, because if they have a gross 20% drop in sales they will have to lay off staff in big numbers because their operating costs are so high - and that's when the momentum to get out of MS really takes hold. They're desperately looking for a new business because their old one is dying.

This is BIG news and is probably a dirty secret MS do not want out in the open. Well grocked....

IJ Reilly

Jul 17, 2008, 01:30 PM

So the global increase of 16% is a figment of our imagination then?

No, just irrelevant IMO. Apple isn't competing against Dell, they are competing against the Windows PC market in the aggregate, which is growing virtually not at all. As I pointed out earlier, Apple's unit sales alone increased substantially more than the of rest of the PC makers, combined. This is a far more significant statistic than comparing the number of units Dell sold against the number Apple sold -- especially if you're trying to divine something about Microsoft's future prospects.

Digitalclips

Jul 17, 2008, 01:34 PM

Getting iPhones into millions of hands can only help these numbers for next quarter.

Classify the iPhone as a portable Mac and let's see the numbers again ;)

diamond.g

Jul 17, 2008, 01:37 PM

This is a remarkably insightful observation.

No wonder Bill Gates left the company and is taking all his money with him - once again proving he's a smart guy!

Your figures are proof they MS must be perilously close to a net decrease in Windows shipments - if not already! What with the rise of Linux and Apple's increased momentum your figures when re-calculated in a year or two could have net PC shipments in the NEGATIVE!!

You have single-handedly established that historical market share is irrelevant because it's NOT new business. It's old business and it's disappearing FAST!

No wonder MS are going all out to get Yahoo, because if they have a gross 20% drop in sales they will have to lay off staff in big numbers because their operating costs are so high - and that's when the momentum to get out of MS really takes hold. They're desperately looking for a new business because their old one is dying.

This is BIG news. Well grocked....
AFAIK Office and the Server guys have been floating Ms for a little while. Plus the enterprise volume licenses that MS sells rake in some good money.

ipedro

Jul 17, 2008, 01:40 PM

I'm sorry, but I still see very difficult to justify a 1900 euro MBP versus a 600 euro HP or DELL if all I'm going to do is check my email, browse the internet and watch some videos. Because, and that's an absolute truth, most people don't use their computers for work,a nd even if they do, they use Office-like programs and little more. You don't need a Mac Pro or MBP for that.

That's why Apple's direction is going toward the information/entertainment appliance like iPhone and :apple:TV. There's no need for a complex OS interface for most people. I'll bet we'll see an iPhone like device optimized (larger screen) for those exact functions in the near future: internet, email, entertainment. I wouldn't be surprised if the :apple:TV goes down that road also.

People need to get out of the old concept of a computer being necessary for even those daily uses. Since getting an iPhone, my use of Mail, iCal, iTunes and even Safari has dropped dramatically. I view all my photos and my entertainment (music, TV, podcasts, movies) on :apple:TV and do all my communicating, scheduling and information gathering on iPhone.

Previously, if I needed some info, I would google it on my MacBook Pro. Now, I have apps for the most common info I need (weather, news, wikipedia, movie times, unit conversions, etc) on my iPhone.

So if you're looking for a sub $1,000 computer for your daily tasks, Apple does sell it: iPod Touch (€289 - €469) or iPhone (well under €600 in most countries).

Apple is already shown with the iPhone by choosing plastic to keep the cost down that they are more concerned about the bottom line than they are the quality of the product (though honestly, I can't fully back this argument because I haven't used the new iphone, I have heard that people were not too dissapointed with it, I mean look how many have sold and I will eventually get one).

The choice of plastic over aluminum doesn't seem to have been influenced by price. In fact, it could be much cheaper to press a metallic case than to cast a plastic case out of a mold and deal with all the chemical, drying and cleanup implications that that material involves. The choice of plastic was to improve reception. With 10 odd antennae in there – including the addition of GPS –*it become too difficult to engineer an optimum radio reception with all that metal in the way.

I have the white iPhone 3G.. I think it's one sexy piece of tech. Originally I thought I'd miss the metallic finish of the original, but the plastic used on iPhone seems almost ceramic like. It doesn't feel cheap or a compromise in relation to the original iPhone's build.

Digitalclips

Jul 17, 2008, 01:41 PM

christian_k

Jul 17, 2008, 01:45 PM

reedfrey

Jul 17, 2008, 01:54 PM

I'd love to see the same chart, but not with number of units sold, but revenues instead. As it is now, a Mac Pro 8 core with 16 GB of RAM and 4 TB hard drives counts the same as the cheapest PC held together by a bit of rubber band.

And why does Gartner not publish world wide numbers a bit further down the list, lets say up to Apple's position?

gnasher - Here are revenues of the major hardware makers according to TD Ameritrade and Marketwatch:

(in billions of USD)
Apple - 28.7
Dell - 62.5
HP - 110.4
Toshiba - 22.5

So Apple still doesn't come anywhere near HP in revenue. However Apples average profit margin is 15% while HP comes in at 7.37%.

BenRoethig

Jul 17, 2008, 01:54 PM

Absolutely, this is just a continuous trend...Apple has a fabulous lead in terms of design, OS, hardware reliability and overall quality, and the market is answering to these obvious facts after years of sheer ignorance, media bashing and monopolistic abuses by Microshaft.

The best desktop in the world? iMac.
The best portable in the world? MBP.
The best music players in the world? iPods.
The best smartphone in the world? iPhone.

Indeed, those that were living under the rocks or in the caves of the Windows world are finally seeing the light. And this is why MS is DEAD.

GO APPLE! TORA! TORA! TORA!

Well you make three good points about the MBP, iPod, and iPhone. The rest of it I honestly don't know how to respond.

matt archbold

Jul 17, 2008, 02:01 PM

diamond.g

Jul 17, 2008, 02:08 PM

I think that Apple will have a tougher time catching up to Dell and HP. Both of those companies are popular because of the entry level PC. Apple would need to come out with a good entry level desktop and laptop to truely compete with them. I still haven't purchased my first Mac because of the cost/specs involved. I see adds for Dell and HP that offer better specs for half the price of the Macbook all the time. That always makes me turn away from Apple. OS X is great, but the cost of the hardware keeps me with HP. Apple is a premium brand and needs to reach down to the entry level PC/Laptop.

Apple will surpass Dell/HP in home sale soon enough. It is the business side that I wonder about. I would have loved nothing more to get an XServe for the network I am upgrading. But they only come in dual socket flavor. I can only hope Apple will have something to combat the R900 that I deploying. :(

The US government is practically keeping Dell/HP alive with respects to server and desktop hardware.

matt archbold

Jul 17, 2008, 02:10 PM

So if you're looking for a sub $1,000 computer for your daily tasks, Apple does sell it: iPod Touch (€289 - €469) or iPhone (well under €600 in most countries).

You're joking right?

I love my iPhone 3G as much as the next guy, but in no way does the iphone/touch replace an entry level laptop. Hell. it doesnt even have cut and paste. The iPhone is a great SMARTPHONE, but not a laptop. You can get a 700 dollar HP with a 15.4 in screen, 3GB ram, duo processor, web cam, etc.. No way an iphone should be compared to that. Its not that its a bad product, its that your comparing 2 diffrent things.

BRLawyer

Jul 17, 2008, 02:19 PM

I see a lot of US citizens still think Europe is "middle of nowhere". That is plain stupid. Think of a mega city like Berlin...

Ditto here, especially when we see that Europe is growing more and more as a major share of Apple revenues...not to mention the mega-rich cities in other parts of the world, such as São Paulo in Brazil, Moscow and St. Petersburg in Russia, at least 10 big cities in India and China, among many others...the overall purchasing power in them eclipses that of most U.S. cities, especially with the dark recession that only Bush denies to see.

Well you make three good points about the MBP, iPod, and iPhone. The rest of it I honestly don't know how to respond.

You don't have to respond to facts, so don't worry...:rolleyes:

szark

Jul 17, 2008, 02:35 PM

Apple will surpass Dell/HP in home sale soon enough. It is the business side that I wonder about.

Apple will never be a big player in the enterprise until they provide roadmaps and end-of-life plans for their computer models and operating systems. Most large companies won't make any major purchases without this information.

surferfromuk

Jul 17, 2008, 02:47 PM

Apple will never be a big player in the enterprise until they provide roadmaps and end-of-life plans for their computer models and operating systems. Most large companies won't make any major purchases without this information.

I'm not disputing this but heck most PC's become a serious IT support overhead and are barely more than Junk on the desk after three years...I don't know what it is about PC's they just seem to become seriously crap after a year or two...

ipedro

Jul 17, 2008, 02:48 PM

You're joking right?

I love my iPhone 3G as much as the next guy, but in no way does the iphone/touch replace an entry level laptop. Hell. it doesnt even have cut and paste. The iPhone is a great SMARTPHONE, but not a laptop. You can get a 700 dollar HP with a 15.4 in screen, 3GB ram, duo processor, web cam, etc.. No way an iphone should be compared to that. Its not that its a bad product, its that your comparing 2 diffrent things.

^ I understand where you're coming from, but I invite you to read the rest of my post above carefully.

For the kind of people who don't use productivity apps (i.e. Photoshop, Word processing, spreadsheets, etc), they'll find that their information and communicating needs can be met with an iPhone. Entertainment can be enjoyed the most via :apple:TV.

I couldn't imagine myself without a computer so I don't mind spending $3,000 on a powerful MacBook Pro. Light users who don't see the justification for even a MacBook ($1,200) will more often than not find their needs met with an iPod Touch/iPhone.

If you consider yourself a light user, make a list of what you use your computer for. I'm far from being one so I don't presume to think the following is entirely correct, but I think it's pretty damn close...

Let's take this fictional character, Bob as an example:

Bob: Hi, I'm Bob and I use my computer for:

Checking and sending email
Surfing the net
Watching YouTube
Listening to music on iTunes
Storing my contacts
Keeping track of my friend's birthdays and upcoming events on iCal

iPedro:So Bob, what surfing do you do on the net?

Bob:Hmm... I check the weather for the week, I read the news on CNN and the New York Times, I look up the Mets' standings, I have some stocks so I look at those every now and then and sometimes and when I want to know more about something, I'll pull it up in Wikipedia.

So there you have it. Bob doesn't need an 18 wheeler to drive to the grocery store. He doesn't need a $1,200 machine, he can do it with an iPod Touch and a few specialized apps:

Mail
Calendar
Address Book
YouTube
iTunes
CNN mobile
NY Times app
Weather
Wikipedia webclip
MLB At Base

A full fledged browser isn't necessary to retrieve the information and entertainment value he's looking for. Nonetheless, he'll have one for more in depth browsing.

Another fictional character, Sarah, is better versed with computers but doesn't take it much further. She represents another large chunk of computer users:

Sarah: I do a lot of what Bob does but I also

Participate in Social Networking sites like Facebook
Watch and listen to Podcasts
Rent the occasional movie and buy some TV shows on iTunes
Manage my digital camera's photo library and make small adjustments

Sarah can also be satisfied with an iPod Touch or an iPhone and would find that an :apple:TV would enhance her entertainment experience over what she does on her computer.

Her last point begins to get into productivity applications. This is where a device with an iPhone like interface but with a larger screen and a little more power would come into the picture. A tablet Mac could fulfill that productivity need and make wider internet browsing easier.

As I've demonstrated, many computer users would do just fine with very specific applications, rather than running an entire computer for uses that don't require the complexity of a desktop based OS. This is why you see so many people with very anemic computers that they've had for five or more years (and probably were previously passed on by a power user who upgraded) which serve them pretty well.. and they're happy.

:)

Now, to keep this relevant to this thread, where I'm getting at is that Apple seems to be following the strategy that I outlined above. They're looking at computer users in a different perspective: rather than having them sit at their computers doing what people do on computers, Apple is giving them devices with very specific applications.

This is why I think that iPhone and iPod Touch are trojan horse Mac's. Just like online music sales weren't counted in Billboard ratings and now are, these portable devices will give Apple a very large share of the market when all is said and done.

seashellz

Jul 17, 2008, 02:52 PM

My sister , a confirmed PC user for many years broke down and bought TWO Macbooks+plus free iPods for the coming school year-she about to be an RN-one for her one for her daughter. Like a virus, soon MS will find itself with a 50% marketshare.

And what pandemonium if Apple comes out with OS X for the PC?

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 03:02 PM

No, just irrelevant IMO. Apple isn't competing against Dell, they are competing against the Windows PC market in the aggregate, which is growing virtually not at all. As I pointed out earlier, Apple's unit sales alone increased substantially more than the of rest of the PC makers, combined. This is a far more significant statistic than comparing the number of units Dell sold against the number Apple sold -- especially if you're trying to divine something about Microsoft's future prospects.

Wait... the fact that the global computer market has increased by 16% is irrelevant? Let's do some simple maths shall we?

Assume Apple sold 2,500,000 Macs this quarter. Assume this is up 40% from 1,500,000 representing an increase of 1,000,000 units.

From IDC's report:

Global sales in Q2 2007: 61,272,000
Global sales in Q2 2008: 70,644,000
Difference: 9,372,000 = 15.3% increase

Removing Apple sales:

Q1 2007: 59,772,000
Q2 2008: 68,144,000
Difference: 8,372,000 = 14% increase

I've already stated that I believe Apple is making some inroads into the US market - although it will inevitably hit a ceiling - which is a fairly saturated market (total growth is about 3.6%) but globally, where the markets aren't as saturated as the US, Windows is still increasing share.

You have single-handedly established that historical market share is irrelevant because it's NOT new business. It's old business and it's disappearing FAST!

Except it actually isn't as the above shows. Don't get me wrong - Apple will take some more market share from MS in the US market (and probably worldwide) - but how much? Maybe 10-15% US? Maybe 5-7% globally? Apple simply isn't positioned to enter the Windows' manufacturer's core markets.

You don't have to respond to facts, so don't worry...:rolleyes:

Well since you didn't actually post any that's not a problem.

I'm not disputing this but heck most PC's become a serious IT support overhead and are barely more than Junk on the desk after three years...I don't know what it is about PC's they just seem to become seriously crap after a year or two...

On what factual basis are making this statement? PCs are generally refreshed on a three to five year cycle in businesses and generally only because an application is no longer supported or better hardware required to run new or improved applications.

For the kind of people who don't use productivity apps (i.e. Photoshop, Word processing, spreadsheets, etc), they'll find that their information and communicating needs can be met with an iPhone.

Or, indeed, pretty much any of the new generation smartphones.

I take your point but the iPhone and the other phones are designed for the five to twenty minute experience. No-one seriously watches feature films regularly on a 3.5" screen or tries to compose letters on one.

This is why I think that iPhone and iPod Touch are trojan horse Mac's. Just like online music sales weren't counted in Billboard ratings and now are, these portable devices will give Apple a very large share of the market when all is said and done.

And if you count them you count all the WinMo, RIM and Symbian devices out there that do the same things. Symbian wins that race by quite a margin.

seashellz

Jul 17, 2008, 03:07 PM

This is a remarkably insightful observation.

No wonder Bill Gates left the company and is taking all his money with him - once again proving he's a smart guy!

Your figures are proof that MS must be perilously close to a net decrease in Windows shipments - if not already! What with the rise of Linux and Apple's increased momentum your figures when re-calculated in a year or two could have net PC shipments in the NEGATIVE!!

You have single-handedly established that historical market share is irrelevant because it's NOT new business. It's old business and it's disappearing FAST!

No wonder MS are going all out to get Yahoo, because if they have a gross 20% drop in sales they will have to lay off staff in big numbers because their operating costs are so high - and that's when the momentum to get out of MS really takes hold. They're desperately looking for a new business because their old one is dying.

This is BIG news and is probably a dirty secret MS do not want out in the open. Well grocked....
---
MS is already laying off a good number of people...and hiring rather smartly at the MAC business unit. I live in Bellevue, Wa a couple miles from
Redmond- MSHQ, and know a good many MS workers- there is a malaise slowly creeping through the company-I think many of them worry about cutbacks-and and are not too happy with working at a place that pushes such product as VISTA out the door, and wish they were working at APPLE...at its growth rate-and as MS starts going into stalled or negative growth numbers, many of them might be...

MidiMonk

Jul 17, 2008, 03:11 PM

Apple may be growing, but the quality level is dropping.I mean here we are almost to another OS 10.6 and MBP's still have wireless drop outs.I am happy for Apple just a bit peeved to that my supposed "Pro" laptop is next to useless when surfing wirelessly:mad:

BTW since 10.5.4 the 1 st key not being typed is happening again, WTF, i happening with their QA dept???

maelstromr

Jul 17, 2008, 03:14 PM

Ditto here, especially when we see that Europe is growing more and more as a major share of Apple revenues...not to mention the mega-rich cities in other parts of the world, such as São Paulo in Brazil, Moscow and St. Petersburg in Russia, at least 10 big cities in India and China, among many others...the overall purchasing power in them eclipses that of most U.S. cities, especially with the dark recession that only Bush denies to see.

Europe is simply small potatoes in world economy terms. You notice the only time Europe is remotely important in global economic development is when the ENTIRE CONTINENT is taken into account. Too bad the EU didn't get it's act together in time to have a chance in the spotlight before 2050 when China and India DO become important in this discussion. Note China and India's rampant consumption right now are not the same thing as sustainable economic development and long term impact, though presumably they will be in the future. (Just to be clear, I'm aware that there are "big cities" in Europe, but we're talking global terms here.)

Back to the point, European countries individually cannot compare to a US market in pretty much anything. There are only 4-5 European countries that are worth individual marketing efforts in any event. The EU as a unit is not homogeneous enough to provide the proper incentives for companies like Apple to market to it continent-ally, so it will continue to be the styx when it comes to the company's expansion.

Now I do sincerely love being told how backward thinking and evil we Americans are, but just saying nasty things about us and hoping that an extremely minor recession takes us out of your sad competition is a bit much, no? Not to mention entirely irrelevant to our long-term place in consuming world goods. (Yes, yes, we're evil for that too, despite making half of your jobs in the process.)

-Yankee-doodle-dandee

IJ Reilly

Jul 17, 2008, 03:19 PM

Wait... the fact that the global computer market has increased by 16% is irrelevant?

I don't know where you are getting information about global sales, or why you are pulling this into the discussion, since this article was about US sales only, which is the basis for my points. As for "saturation" I don't think this is much of an issue. The Windows PC market is plenty large, sufficiently large such that Apple doesn't need to steal much of it away every quarter to continue to grow their share. For the last few quarters, Apple has been garnering more the half of the total unit growth in the US.

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 03:20 PM

Europe is simply small potatoes in world economy terms.

Despite the EU being the biggest economy in the world?

You notice the only time Europe is remotely important in global economic development is when the ENTIRE CONTINENT is taken into account.

And the US when you count all of its federal states. Well, with the possible exception of California that is.

Back to the point, European countries individually cannot compare to a US market in pretty much anything.

Mainly because our biggest countries are about one fifth its size. That's why we have the EU.

There are only 4-5 European countries that are worth individual marketing efforts in any event. The EU as a unit is not homogeneous enough to provide the proper incentives for companies like Apple to market to it continent-ally, so it will continue to be the styx when it comes to the company's expansion.

Really? Microsoft and HP didn't seem to have a problem.

Congratulations. Your post is the probably the most ill informed I've read to day.

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 03:26 PM

I don't know where you are getting information about global sales, or why you are pulling this into the discussion, since this article was about US sales only, which is the basis for my points. As for "saturation" I don't think this is much of an issue. The Windows PC market is plenty large, sufficiently large such that Apple doesn't need to steal much of it away every quarter to continue to grow their share. For the last few quarters, Apple has been garnering more the half of the total unit growth in the US.

The article quotes that Apple has failed to break into the worldwide top 5. I'm explaining why this is.

I have absolutely no disagreement with the fact that Apple are increasing their share of a saturated market at Windows expense, however my points are:

1) This expansion will inevitably hit a ceiling, and
2) The same logic doesn't apply to global sales where the market isn't saturated.

maelstromr

Jul 17, 2008, 03:29 PM

Despite the EU being the biggest economy in the world?

And the US when you count all of its federal states. Well, with the possible exception of California that is.

Mainly because our biggest countries are about one fifth its size. That's why we have the EU.

Really? Microsoft and HP didn't seem to have a problem.

Congratulations. Your post is the probably the most ill informed I've read to day.

Good understanding of Federalism.

EU = mis-mash of poor and rich countries not working together and not having any significant standardizations collected together JUST so Europeans can use one currency and feel good about being big for the first time since colonialism.

US = one NATION where interstate trade crosses freely and with consistent standards over all state lines. Big in reality, on its own, in the present and still the center of global business.

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 03:32 PM

Good understanding of Federalism.

EU = mis-mash of poor and rich countries not working together and not having any significant standardizations collected together JUST so Europeans can use one currency and feel good about being big for the first time since colonialism.

US = one NATION where interstate trade crosses freely and with consistent standards over all state lines. Big in reality, on its own, in the present and still the center of global business.

You are aware that the EU has free trade and mobility of labour right? You're also aware that the US states have different state laws and taxes, right?

I'm not disputing the US is still an economic powerhouse but your lack of understanding of how the EU's economy works is pretty apparent.

djlu

Jul 17, 2008, 03:35 PM

1) This expansion will inevitably hit a ceiling, and
2) The same logic doesn't apply to global sales where the market isn't saturated.

By the way there are several stories reporting that IDC is saying that Apple is now no. 6 worldwide. I believe the paid version of the IDC report gives a larger breakdown of the companies both US and worldwide.

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 03:36 PM

By the way there are several stories reporting that IDC is saying that Apple is now no. 6 worldwide. I believe the paid version of the IDC report gives a larger breakdown of the companies both US and worldwide.

I'm pretty sure it is. However, that market share is still likely to be less than 4%.

maelstromr

Jul 17, 2008, 03:37 PM

You are aware that the EU has free trade and mobility of labour right? You're also aware that the US states have different state laws and taxes, right?

I'm not disputing the US is still an economic powerhouse but your lack of understanding of how the EU's economy works is pretty apparent.

Buddy, the discussion is about the expansion of Apple Computer's marketing efforts and market penetration, remember? Go refer to the iTunes and iPhone experiences in Europe (and the continuing lack of standard application in all nations) for examples of how badly Europe is set up for this kind of thing. I think I already made that point...

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 03:46 PM

Buddy, the discussion is about the expansion of Apple Computer's marketing efforts and market penetration, remember? Go refer to the iTunes and iPhone experiences in Europe (and the continuing lack of standard application in all nations) for examples of how badly Europe is set up for this kind of thing. I think I already made that point...

The discussion is about market penetration but then you went and made a lot of ignorant conjecture about an economy you don't understand. As for iTunes, it's standardised in nearly all countries that use the Euro at 0.99e per track. Other countries like the UK charge differing amounts because they don't use their own currencies. However, the service exists in every European Union country.

As for the iPhone, it was released on different carrier networks - Telefonica O2 in the UK, T-Mobile in Germany and Orange in France which is rather why it had different conditions in the same way AT&T has different conditions from, say, Verizon or Sprint.

Now do you want to stop there or do you want to keep digging a hole for yourself?

Apple actually have a pretty good presence in the EU in terms of sales. Not as good as the US but not far off it.

djlu

Jul 17, 2008, 03:49 PM

I'm pretty sure it is. However, that market share is still likely to be less than 4%.

True but I think in 2002 they were less than 2% worldwide. I think as they open more Apple Stores it will help in those countries.

I don't think however that they will ever have a significant share of developing countries becuase of price. I imagine their India, China and Brazil market shares are probably under 1%.

maelstromr

Jul 17, 2008, 04:00 PM

The discussion is about market penetration but then you went and made a lot of ignorant conjecture about an economy you don't understand. As for iTunes, it's standardised in nearly all countries that use the Euro at 0.99e per track. Other countries like the UK charge differing amounts because they don't use their own currencies. However, the service exists in every European Union country.

As for the iPhone, it was released on different carrier networks - Telefonica O2 in the UK, T-Mobile in Germany and Orange in France which is rather why it had different conditions in the same way AT&T has different conditions from, say, Verizon or Sprint.

Now do you want to stop there or do you want to keep digging a hole for yourself?

Apple actually have a pretty good presence in the EU in terms of sales. Not as good as the US but not far off it.

AT&T is the ONLY iPhone carrier in the US.

The IMPLEMENTATION of iTunes and iPhone were neither smooth nor standard, whatever the state years afterward. This is referenced in hundreds of news articles from that period. France's crazy IP regime alone nearly botched the whole deal. At least twice Apple nearly pulled iTunes from a couple EU markets.

EU economic standards are barely more than illusory promises, and have not panned out for most members. Especially when the most important piece of Europe (economically), the UK, is barely on board.

I state facts, and suggest evidence to back it up. You make obstinate statements because you read somewhere Europe as a whole has a significant economy and then throw out insults to cover for a lack of ability to make specific responses and resort to over-broad and irrelevant generalizations about the EU.

I understand it hurts your feelings, but the EU simply is not as good a market as the US FOR COMPANIES LIKE APPLE. Aside from the clear business choice Apple makes to throw its support behind US marketing over European, this is pretty clear from its presence in those places. Now, in all fairness apple's low market penetration probably has a lot to do with the significant number of depressed economies rolled into the EU with Germany et al and the 1990's level of computer technology laying around there, but I don't have anything to back that up. I'm sure there are lot's of Germans carrying around pretty Apples while they take care of their very important business in their very big cities.

IJ Reilly

Jul 17, 2008, 04:16 PM

The article quotes that Apple has failed to break into the worldwide top 5. I'm explaining why this is.

I have absolutely no disagreement with the fact that Apple are increasing their share of a saturated market at Windows expense, however my points are:

1) This expansion will inevitably hit a ceiling, and
2) The same logic doesn't apply to global sales where the market isn't saturated.

Everything hits a ceiling, but where and when? The problem with having a huge market share, as Microsoft does, is that everywhere you look, the direction is down. Apple has had upside potential for a long time, but they are only now taking advantage of it. I can see this trend continuing for a couple of years. It isn't unreasonable to imagine that the Mac might claim 15% or more of the US market within two years. It's been that high before.

zacman

Jul 17, 2008, 04:28 PM

As for iTunes, it's standardised in nearly all countries that use the Euro at 0.99e per track.

Actually that hasn't always been the case. Apple tried to charge different prices but was forced by the EU commission to change this because it violated the EU contract.

The EU commission even thought about forcing Apple to license protected AAC to third party hardware vendors for interoperability.

FasterQuieter

Jul 17, 2008, 04:40 PM

Slightly ahead of Acer. Whooptidoo.

BongoBanger

Jul 17, 2008, 05:17 PM

AT&T is the ONLY iPhone carrier in the US.

So we have more choice in the EU. Instant win.

The IMPLEMENTATION of iTunes and iPhone were neither smooth nor standard, whatever the state years afterward. This is referenced in hundreds of news articles from that period. France's crazy IP regime alone nearly botched the whole deal. At least twice Apple nearly pulled iTunes from a couple EU markets.

And yet it was implemented.

EU economic standards are barely more than illusory promises, and have not panned out for most members. Especially when the most important piece of Europe (economically), the UK, is barely on board.

Incorrect. The UK has signed up to the Treaty of Lisbon.

I state facts, and suggest evidence to back it up.

Really? Where exactly?

You make obstinate statements because you read somewhere Europe as a whole has a significant economy and then throw out insults to cover for a lack of ability to make specific responses and resort to over-broad and irrelevant generalizations about the EU.

It's actually the IMF that determines the economic worth of the EU. They determined it's the world's largest economy.

I understand it hurts your feelings, but the EU simply is not as good a market as the US FOR COMPANIES LIKE APPLE.

Well it doesn't bother me but you should know that Europe is Apple's biggest market outside the US accounting for about a third of Mac sales.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/85426-a-close-look-at-apple-s-mac-shipments

That fact kind of makes the rest of your post redundant.

Keep trying, you might get something right eventually.

oldwatery

Jul 17, 2008, 06:11 PM

WOW!
You mean Apple still makes computers :rolleyes:

PurrBall

Jul 17, 2008, 07:02 PM

Wow. How much market share did Windows XP lose?

Probably the amount that Vista gained. :p

28monkeys

Jul 17, 2008, 08:11 PM

ACER is selling well among the grassroot to middle class income groups here in Thailand and SE-ASIA regional.

DiamondMac

Jul 17, 2008, 08:59 PM

Apple will continue to make strides as long as they continue making very good products like the iPhone, iPod, iMac, MBP, and other machines

I doubt Apple will reach some of the levels that many fanatics want people to believe but I do think we will see more increases the next few years as more people realize that Mac computers are stable, safe, and very easy to use

I see more Macs at school, at work, and just around then I ever have before and it grows

beatledud

Jul 18, 2008, 02:23 AM

#3?!!!

Do you hear that AutoDesk?!!! MAKE AUTOCAD FOR OSX!! Just so tough for architects who like Apple more but our industry is crippled to AutoCAD. Going to work each day and working on a PC is awful!

Theserpens

Jul 18, 2008, 03:57 AM

Well it doesn't bother me but you should know that Europe is Apple's biggest market outside the US accounting for about a third of Mac sales.

and Apple will never succeed in increasing its worldwide market share until it will lower the prices of its computer abroad. In europe the prices, also taking into account taxes, are regularly between 10 and 20% higher compared to the US. Europeans still consider Apple overpriced, and it's true.

You also see this effect with the iPods. The iPod market share of MP3 players is much lower in Europe compared to the US: iPods are also overpriced.

To save some money we have to wait for discounts on older versions after products upgrades or we have to buy refurbished products....

donga

Jul 18, 2008, 03:58 AM

i think apple will still grow in the US, but to get to #3 worldwide.... much tougher to sell cool and more expensive machines to countries/people that can't afford it

Gasu E.

Jul 18, 2008, 09:47 AM

Your points are valid. However, i gave Scotland as an example. It's where i live. I am not suggesting that Apple should spend $m in Scotland. But lots of little pieces make up one big piece.

One of the other huge problems is that average Joe sees the cost of an Apple product in US$, does a quick conversion, then compares it to the price he would pay for that device in his country.

MacBook price of $1099 equates to £548.99. But the UK price for the same item is £699. Average Joe thinks this is a rip off.

Actually, $1099 equates to £644, since you also have to add 17.5% VAT at your end to get the list price (as I recall, VAT is added before the advertised price in the UK). The $1099 does not include taxes, which get added when you make the purchase, since this varies by state. The remaining discrepency of about 8% can at least partially be accounted for by the recent fall of the dollar. I don't really see evidence of a large discrepency here-- maybe 5%; even that small amount couple be explained by differences in distribution costs. Am I missing something?

Gasu E.

Jul 18, 2008, 10:07 AM

The discussion is about market penetration but then you went and made a lot of ignorant conjecture about an economy you don't understand. .

Actually, it's hard to tell what the discussion is from your posts. I went back through the entire thread to find your original proposition, and I failed to find any. Mostly you seem to be randomly gainsaying Americans. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a bit unfair to expect anyone to argue effectively against your position when you never really stated what your position was in the first place. You seem to have a lot of facts at your disposal and probably have something worthwhile to say, but your presentation has been so incoherent that your point has been lost on this disinterested observer. Just trying to provide some constructive criticism.

IJ Reilly

Jul 18, 2008, 10:32 AM

Actually, $1099 equates to £644, since you also have to add 17.5% VAT at your end to get the list price (as I recall, VAT is added before the advertised price in the UK). The $1099 does not include taxes, which get added when you make the purchase, since this varies by state. The remaining discrepency of about 8% can at least partially be accounted for by the recent fall of the dollar. I don't really see evidence of a large discrepency here-- maybe 5%; even that small amount couple be explained by differences in distribution costs. Am I missing something?

I don't think so. Strong currencies do not produce instant discounts. Goods are priced in the markets where they are sold, not where they are manufactured. Exchange rates come into these calculations only indirectly, if at all. In fact you would not want a strong currency to produce instant proportional discounts on imported goods, as this results in deflation, which as economists will tell you, is a bad thing. And then of course, the opposite would have to occur when a currency is weak. Who would like to see automatic markups every time their national currencies hiccup?

rockosmodurnlif

Jul 18, 2008, 10:37 AM

Geez, even the Mac news posts turn into iPhone ads :confused:

But yea, I notice Dell and HP share went up as well.

...
By then, Mac OS X will be at 10.10, or dar I say, X.X!
...

You mean dead? ;)

christian_k

Jul 18, 2008, 01:41 PM

So if you're looking for a sub $1,000 computer for your daily tasks, Apple does sell it: iPod Touch (€289 - €469) or iPhone (well under €600 in most countries).

No. iPod Touch cannot replace a computer. In fact you cannot do much with an iPod without having a computer. You cannot transfer your music CDs to the devie. You cannot transfer pictures from a digital camera to an iPod without a computer and you cannot edit your pictures on it. A touchscreen may be cool, but if you write mails, forum posts or texts for a blog then a real keyboard will do the job much better. Many broadband routers need to confgured over ethernet before WiFi access is possible, how do you do that with an iPod? How do you update your iPods firmware without a computer? How do you write and print an application if you are looking for a job - only with an iPod?

Apple does have a sub $1000 computer -> the Mini. I think for most users this computer is more than enough. But iPods or iPhones or Apple TVs cannot replace that.

Christian

christian_k

Jul 18, 2008, 05:33 PM

Now, in all fairness apple's low market penetration probably has a lot to do with the significant number of depressed economies rolled into the EU with Germany et al and the 1990's level of computer technology laying around there, but I don't have anything to back that up. I'm sure there are lot's of Germans carrying around pretty Apples while they take care of their very important business in their very big cities.

Yes, the first gen iPhone did not sell well here in Germany. One reason was the pricing of T-Mobile, but more important, Germany already had good 3G coverage and a lot of potential customers simply did not want to go back to GSM/EDGE. Steve Jobs told everyone 3G was not necessary because it was only available in a few hotspot locations while I had already used it in small towns (<5000 people). Simply ridiculous! And you tell the world about your advances over "1990s" technology....?

curve666

Jul 18, 2008, 08:50 PM

Spagolli94

Jul 19, 2008, 12:29 AM

I still have yet to meet someone with an Acer computer. I can't recall them at business meetings. I don't seem them in the wild. It's hard to believe that they are 8 percent.

Agree. I found this shocking. Acer? Acer???? After all of Apple's growth over the past few years... In schools, homes, colleges, ad agencies, doctors and lawyers, etc, etc, etc. Acer????

Spagolli94

Jul 19, 2008, 12:31 AM

ACER is selling well among the grassroot to middle class income groups here in Thailand and SE-ASIA regional.

That was my first thought. Okay, maybe it's selling like hotcakes worldwide. But then I noticed this is a US study.

Next thing you know, they are going to say Tandy is beating Apple.

Spagolli94

Jul 19, 2008, 12:37 AM

the plastic used on iPhone seems almost ceramic like.

I agree. Please pass more Koolaid. Only Apple can convince customers that plastic feels like ceramic. You know, now that I think about it, my Mightly Mouse is starting to feel like porcelin.

The orig poster is right though. I don't know how they do it, but Apple's plastic consistently feels higher quality than it's PC counterparts. Maybe it has to do with the texture of the grain, or lack thereof? Dunno.

PurrBall

Jul 19, 2008, 01:24 PM

is what made my final decision to go Mac in May. After reading a recent PC World article about having to clean off all that good-for-nothing ad- and crap-ware that comes with Windows, I bought an iMac 3.06 in May.
Dan

Windows doesn't come with crapware, computer manufacturers load it all on. I just build my own though so I don't have to deal with it and I save a ******** of money, but your solution is a better one :D

gkarris

Jul 19, 2008, 03:58 PM

Agree. I found this shocking. Acer? Acer???? After all of Apple's growth over the past few years... In schools, homes, colleges, ad agencies, doctors and lawyers, etc, etc, etc. Acer????

I know a few people that have them. Just a minor step above Dells... :eek:

BongoBanger

Jul 19, 2008, 05:10 PM

Actually, it's hard to tell what the discussion is from your posts. I went back through the entire thread to find your original proposition, and I failed to find any. Mostly you seem to be randomly gainsaying Americans. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a bit unfair to expect anyone to argue effectively against your position when you never really stated what your position was in the first place. You seem to have a lot of facts at your disposal and probably have something worthwhile to say, but your presentation has been so incoherent that your point has been lost on this disinterested observer. Just trying to provide some constructive criticism.

His point was that Europe isn't a major economy. My point - which is backed up by the IMF - is that it is. Surprised you missed it as it was couched in pretty clear language.

I've nothing against America - and if you really had gone back over my posts you would have seen that I acknowledge the US is an economic powerhouse. But then if you were really a disinterested observer than I guess you wouldn't have.