will apple drop prices to counteract the terrible retail season this christmas?

[jefhatfield]

without getting political or blaming one political party or the other, the us economy has at best had a partial recovery and we are nowhere near being out of the woods in the terrible recession...though both major political parties have done good things for america and the world these past few years...good, i said it ;)

news reports abound about less than expected sales on the retail sector in the usa

does anybody here think that apple will lower prices due to economic pressures and announce lower prices on items at mwsf?

usually, one or more items gets a price break anyway at mwsf just because technology continues to get better and cheaper all the time

here is what i would like to see:

emacs starting at $599.00 us dollars
ibook $999
imac way lower, if possible
powerbook $1499
power mac $ 1499
ipod way lower, if possible
panther $99
applecare way lower, if possible
.mac for free
appleworks $49

but what i expect would be fewer items than listed above being discounted and none as far as what i have asked for except for maybe the $999 dollar ibook which i am pretty sure will happen in january

what do you guys think will happen regarding lower prices?

[dukemeiser]

I guess all I've heard is good news about the economy: Lots of growth, employment levels up, consumers spending a lot of money. Not to mention that iPods are flying off store shelves. Record breaking G5 sales. Record iPod sales.

I would certainly love it if Apple drops their prices, but I don't see any need for them to do so.

[Robertk2012]

oh yes this terrible recession where GDP is growing at 8%. Its people like you and the hysteria that even causes downturns. Nothing was wrong with the economy except some bloated Nasdaq prices. I cant help it if some dumbass acually though a scok puppet selling pet food was going to make money. So what if people are spending less. Everything is pretty solid and americans have a habit of spending to much anyways

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Its people like you and the hysteria that even causes downturns.

wow, i didn't know i had that much power ;)

maybe i can cause a hysteria in the pc world and cause them all to be scared of microsoft and windows and switch over to mac

maybe you can help me channel my energies to affect the outcomes of some of the remaining nfl games so i can make some money

i am, i guess, the master of the universe:p

[Dont Hurt Me]

sounds like we are getting spin on the economy? terrible recession? when did this happen?I thought the economy was moving forward. anyways dont expect apple to be selling a $599 computer. I think you will see new models at about the same price points we have now and some major bumps to the powermac to allow for a g5 imac or new product.

[jefhatfield]

i am god and i command the economy to bring the dow to 11000:o

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i am god and i command the economy to bring the dow to 11000:o That's almost enough to make one become a pagan.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
That's almost enough to make one become a pagan.

talk about pagan, let's entertain the subject for one second :)

christmas, as it is practiced in the united states and some other countries, is a pagan holiday

it really has nothing to do with jesus christ, but more to do with santa claus, christmas trees, and out of control commercialism...during the middle ages, the catholic church needed to be able to compete with the pagan winter soltice festivals and try and introduce the concept of christianity to the masses who were not in the fold of the church

starting with the apostle paul, who was most responsible for bringing christianity out of the middle east and into europe, the practice of spreading the gospel would be modified in such a way for the region to best understand...it kind of meant while in rome, do as the romans...there are many approaches to winning a person over to christ, but it has to be modified to fit the culture being preached to

the original idea of celebrating the birth of jesus of nazareth got so mixed up in the celabratory ideas of the winter soltice that the more pagan concepts of the season won out...add to this bible historians actually believe that jesus was born in the spring instead of christmas day

i have been a devout christian in my beliefs, and add to this i hate the stress of the shopping season and all the hoopola that the season brings, that i am kind of a scrooge during most of december...he he...the only thinkg that makes me happy is when i see a sticker or button which says, "jesus is the reason for the season" and i hope that makes someone stop for just a second in this rush and reflect and realize what it means

i think a baseball fan at a yankees game with a sign that reads John 3:16 does more to witeness christ's message to the world than the whole of the christmas season because when it comes down to it, the birth of christ was the beginning of a journey which led to the son of god's ministry and ultimate crucifixtion that would lead to the salvation of all people who believed in his mission to save the world of its sins

i have an equal dislike of the easter season and the easter bunny and the push to sell candy and the bigger focus that and buying flowers has over the real reason for easter, which was the rise of christ who died and came back to life thus proving that he was god in the flesh...as if his miracles during his ministry was not proof enough and his fulfillment of 1500 years of old testament prophecy which looked forward to god coming into this earth as a baby, growing up, and changing the way the world would look at god, love, mercy, and forgiveness forever

well that's my take...rant over...i mean sermon over ;)

merry christmas and a happy new year to all

[gwuMACaddict]

i have to agree with some previous posters... they economy is in nowhere near as bad a shape as the media makes it seem... and the prices you mentioned for stuff seems ridiculous to me... not that i wouldn't mind it, but dont get your hopes up

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by gwuMACaddict
i have to agree with some previous posters... they economy is in nowhere near as bad a shape as the media makes it seem... and the prices you mentioned for stuff seems ridiculous to me... not that i wouldn't mind it, but dont get your hopes up

i am aware that my prices are...uh...hopeful ;)

when the g4 ibook came out with g4 processor, combo drive, slot loading, and still small form factor at 1099 usd, i was very pleased

but 999 would be very, very cool

even a hundred dollar drop in the entry level g5 would be welcome

this may not happen, but a 199 dollar ipod would rock:D

[dukemeiser]

Originally posted by gwuMACaddict
they economy is in nowhere near as bad a shape as the media makes it seem

Good call. When did the media become an outlet for so much bad news? Even when the economy looks up like it does now, they put a bad spin on it. They can't be neutral about it either, it's always pro evil.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by dukemeiser
Good call. When did the media become an outlet for so much bad news? Even when the economy looks up like it does now, they put a bad spin on it. They can't be neutral about it either, it's always pro evil.

i see the media as left and right wing (but probably mostly leaning left)...movies, most tv, and most tv news tends to be liberal and criticizes the economy now since it is bush who is president right now...the economy has strong sectors and weak sectors and the hope is the strong sectors will boost up the weak sectors

...that and the media tends to favor bad news since that sells more

talk radio tends to be conservative and many on that end play up the few bright signs in the economy and make it sound like a full recovery

in reality it is neither, but i think we have experienced a partial recovery and we are still in a recession, but not as bad as, let's say, six months ago...one of the weak sectors of the economy (admitedly the last sector to usually pull out of a long term slump) is the retail sector and it is my hope apple will lower prices some, or a lot to counteract that

whatever turn the economy eventually takes in the next few months or years, i know that there are enough of us loyal mac users who will keep apple with a guaranteed market, but some years it may be smaller than other years and some years it may be larger

[kuyu]

While retail sales are down this year, it's important to realize that most reporters know almost nothing about the economy. Many people are shopping on the internet this christmas, and gift card sales are at an all-time high. Because the gov doesn't yet recognize smaller web outfits in its calculation of x-mas spending, in appears a little bleak on the surface.

Digital toys and technology are huge this year, both posting abnormally high sales as whole sectors. Since apple fits into these catagories, and they sell a ton of stuff on their website, I would think they would be immune to this "spending downturn" (which only really exists on paper).

Check the markets in about 2-3 months, and see the retail sector meeting quarterly estimates. While some won't, most will, and others will beat their estimates. The doom and gloom reporting has more to do with who sleeps in the whitehouse than actual problems. Don't take it too seriously.

[Megaquad]

Doesn't US have trade deficit of like half trillion per year?
That is what is destroying your economy, a country that buys more foreign stuff than it sells will go bankrupt.
And all this 8% growth rate is probably just temporarily.. people using money they've been saving up.. growth will fall down I'm sure.
I suggest you buy less Chinese stuff, they are using your money to build more nukes. ;)

[kuyu]

Originally posted by Megaquad

I suggest you buy less Chinese stuff, they are using your money to build more nukes. ;)

and rockets!:)

[Robertk2012]

I sitll dont see how you can say we are in a recession. A recession is defined by negative growth in GDP. Two consecutive Quarters to be exact. We only had one in this so called recession. Or trade balance is a little on the wrong side but even so we have a growing trade deficit but still huge positive growth in GDP. (Imports are subtracted from GDP.) Also almost 400 billion of imports are capital goods, which help to boost GDP. I know GDP cant be looked at as the answer to everything but it does a pretty good job. China with all its potential and growth couldnt even keep up with the last 8% number. I dont expect that to last, but 4 to 5% wouldnt be surprising to be sustained. Are only bad sectors are unskilled labor and manufacturing. The problem with manufacturing is that we have had such a huge growth in productivity in such a short period of time. It makes it hard to adjust when that happens.

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
talk about pagan, let's entertain the subject for one second :)

christmas, as it is practiced in the united states and some other countries, is a pagan holiday

it really has nothing to do with jesus christ, but more to do with santa claus, christmas trees, and out of control commercialism...during the middle ages, the catholic church needed to be able to compete with the pagan winter soltice festivals and try and introduce the concept of christianity to the masses who were not in the fold of the church

starting with the apostle paul, who was most responsible for bringing christianity out of the middle east and into europe, the practice of spreading the gospel would be modified in such a way for the region to best understand...it kind of meant while in rome, do as the romans...there are many approaches to winning a person over to christ, but it has to be modified to fit the culture being preached to

the original idea of celebrating the birth of jesus of nazareth got so mixed up in the celabratory ideas of the winter soltice that the more pagan concepts of the season won out...add to this bible historians actually believe that jesus was born in the spring instead of christmas day

i have been a devout christian in my beliefs, and add to this i hate the stress of the shopping season and all the hoopola that the season brings, that i am kind of a scrooge during most of december...he he...the only thinkg that makes me happy is when i see a sticker or button which says, "jesus is the reason for the season" and i hope that makes someone stop for just a second in this rush and reflect and realize what it means

i think a baseball fan at a yankees game with a sign that reads John 3:16 does more to witeness christ's message to the world than the whole of the christmas season because when it comes down to it, the birth of christ was the beginning of a journey which led to the son of god's ministry and ultimate crucifixtion that would lead to the salvation of all people who believed in his mission to save the world of its sins

i have an equal dislike of the easter season and the easter bunny and the push to sell candy and the bigger focus that and buying flowers has over the real reason for easter, which was the rise of christ who died and came back to life thus proving that he was god in the flesh...as if his miracles during his ministry was not proof enough and his fulfillment of 1500 years of old testament prophecy which looked forward to god coming into this earth as a baby, growing up, and changing the way the world would look at god, love, mercy, and forgiveness forever

well that's my take...rant over...i mean sermon over ;)

merry christmas and a happy new year to all

Santa Claus was invented in New York (well taken from the story about someone who gave presents to poor children at Christmas). He ws then coloured red by Coke Cola.

Also Jesus was meant to have been born in October, 30(something) BC. People found that the calenders had got all mixed up in the middle ages.

For me Christmas is the best time of the year, not just because of the gifts, but also because my entire family gets together for it (around 20 of us).

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by gwuMACaddict
i have to agree with some previous posters... they economy is in nowhere near as bad a shape as the media makes it seem... and the prices you mentioned for stuff seems ridiculous to me... not that i wouldn't mind it, but dont get your hopes up

I have had a Mac since 1995, and I have never known Apple to have a sale. The only things they might do is drop the prices of older Macs if new ones are coming out, or other rebates with Macs when bought at the same time as something else (e.g. iPod).

[Grimace]

.MAC will never be free.

[VegetaPunk]

i have to agree with some previous posters... they economy is in nowhere near as bad a shape as the media makes it seem... and the prices you mentioned for stuff seems ridiculous to me... not that i wouldn't mind it, but dont get your hopes up


Im not sure that the economy is in that great of shape. The company that I work for has "let go" of many workers in order to cut costs. it also seems like Im always hearing of lay offs (sadly my Girlfriends father was one of them)
Now 5 years ago people were jumping from job to job to get pay raises and now these same people think more then twice before they make a job switch.

[Robertk2012]

Unenployment is 5.9% what is so terrible about that? Look at that in a historical perspective and around the world and then come tell me we have a high unemployment rate.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by gwuMACaddict
i have to agree with some previous posters... they economy is in nowhere near as bad a shape as the media makes it seem... and the prices you mentioned for stuff seems ridiculous to me... not that i wouldn't mind it, but dont get your hopes up

That's right, if it wasn't for the media, we wouldn't have lost 2.5 million jobs over the past three years. Damn the media. Damn them all.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by kuyu
the gov doesn't yet recognize smaller web outfits in its calculation of x-mas spending


link?

[jefhatfield]

i orginally meant this thread to be in the general discussion but the way i started it made it into a political thread...so shame on me...he he

i sometimes frequent these political threads which at one time i wanted off this macintosh related site, but it was me who invented it with two other macrumors members back in 2001 out of boredom and it's turned into the battle we have daily on this section and the politicos who are here now don't appreciate me because i am either too conservative in their eyes or too liberal and many mac posters who i used to have a great correspondence with did not appreciate us three bringing in the political talk to a technical computer related site...oh well, such is the life in macrumors ;)

i never said every single solitary sector of the economy was terrible but i mostly menitioned the area which was not up to par...namely the retail sector and that is where it hurts apple inc (and frankly most of america) the most...now if apple inc built weapons for the army, it might be a different story

[g5man]

The holiday buying season is not over. All the statements regarding the retail season have come from stores such as Walmart and Target. If you read their statements they indicate that the projected increases will come at the lower end of their estimates. So instead of 7% increase from last year they might only reach a 4% increase.

Now internet sales are up as much as 50% from last year. So we need to wait until mid January and get a better picture of what took place.

As far as Apple lowering prices, most posters have already answered that possibility and it will not happen. Personally Apple will see a big surge in sales in the fall of 2004 when the 3ghz hits the stores. We may see a bigger jump again when the first true 64 bit OS X comes out in 2005.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by g5man
The holiday buying season is not over. All the statements regarding the retail season have come from stores such as Walmart and Target. If you read their statements they indicate that the projected increases will come at the lower end of their estimates. So instead of 7% increase from last year they might only reach a 4% increase.

Now internet sales are up as much as 50% from last year. So we need to wait until mid January and get a better picture of what took place.

As far as Apple lowering prices, most posters have already answered that possibility and it will not happen. Personally Apple will see a big surge in sales in the fall of 2004 when the 3ghz hits the stores. We may see a bigger jump again when the first true 64 bit OS X comes out in 2005.

hey glad to see you g5man, my friend, and you actually mentioned sales of apple inc products and prices ;)

but i thought now we are supposed to go all out and turn this thread into a political flamewar full of half truths and personal insults...is there any other way this section has ever been?;) :p

[jefhatfield]

all the republicans on this thread are evil caviar eating, yacht club members pretending to protect the middle and lower classes of america

...and your mama wears combat boots, versace 1000 dollar combat boots, and you are all secret spies for the PC side:D

[zimv20]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
the politicos who are here now don't appreciate me

*i* appreciate you

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by zimv20
*i* appreciate you

why thank you

i do have some problems much like ross perot who said he had 2...big ears and a big nose

mine are not quite as easy to see, but i have a reduced angle and frequent hemmoroids and the email spammers have caught up with me and my age...darn bob dole and his viagra people, and darn george forman and all his talk about anal issues in old men:mad: :p

[Robertk2012]

This is a complete waste of time. OMG the sky is falling we are all going to die. We are in the midst of the great depression. :(

Look Im sorry but I could out in one day get 3 or 4 decent jobs.

[Stelliform]

Originally posted by hvfsl

Also Jesus was meant to have been born in October, 30(something) BC. People found that the calenders had got all mixed up in the middle ages.


Actually Christmas was deliberately celebrated around the winter solstice. There are a lot of guesses on the reason why, but in my opinion it probably was the most shameful. (To steal the holiday from the pagans and to make it easier for converting pagans.) :) (Thank you history channel by the way... :))

And I agree that Christmas is mostly secular in the way it is celebrated. That is why the ACLU only attacks nativity scenes and not Christmas trees.

BTW, We had a happy birthday Jesus cake for the kids in our family. It was fun. :)

Oh, and on topic. If it was a real recession apple probably would hold prices and wait it out. Dropping prices would only add to the punishment. IMHO

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
This is a complete waste of time. OMG the sky is falling we are all going to die. We are in the midst of the great depression. :(

Look Im sorry but I could out in one day get 3 or 4 decent jobs.

So the problem with the 2.5 million people who've lost their jobs over the last three years is that they aren't you?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
This is a complete waste of time. OMG the sky is falling we are all going to die. We are in the midst of the great depression. :(

Look Im sorry but I could out in one day get 3 or 4 decent jobs.

after i got my ba in hr/personnel, i went to work for uncle sam trying to help many former military men and women try and land jobs...we had thousands of people in the pentagon and elsewhere working on the transition of soldiers and it was not easy for enlisted and officers alike leaving the military

and that was back in 1995 when the economy was better than it is now

i suggest you start your own human resources company and go into competition with manpower and kelly...you can then turn around and make a few hundred million dollars

and when you do that, you can come to the department of defense and land that contract for getting former soldiers jobs in the civilian world...that would be a multi million dollar contract for your hr corporation;)

and when you become a billionaire job guru, i will gladly come and work for you and i am sure ij reilly would too and all the macrumors members can say that they corresponded with you back in the day when you were just a regular person like the rest of us

[Robertk2012]

ok the economy was better in 95? Says who?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
ok the economy was better in 95? Says who?

history will show that president clinton resided in the nation's longest period of economic growth

now no matter how you spin it, i can't see how you can make out now to be better than the clinton years, or the reagan years...both presidents will go down in history as stronger economic presidents than their predecessors - bush sr before clinton and carter before reagan...and yes, both clinton and reagan in their first terms totally outclassed george w bush when it came to national economics

true, there is a year left and in politics, that is a long time and W still has time to make things good for america economically, yet we all know it is not solely in his hands

for the sake of the republicans...and democrats, independents and all americans, i hope the economy is booming in all sectors by this time next year...i have been in business for 15 years and have been in the workforce for 25 years and i would like to be in business another 15 years and it would be great to be able to say over the next year, "things have been great in 2004"

i have mentioned that i would consider voting for bush if he brought the economy back to a strong, clinton years type of bull market...and if the president pulls us out of iraq instead of keeping us in a hopeless situation

...of course, people who believe in a quick withdrawal of iraq know at the fastest it would take a year to get things stable and it's not a quick process...but under no circumstances do i want to see the usa leading the occupation and rebuilding iraq spending billions of our tax dollars three or four years from now...but with W, i think if he gets a second term, he will drag out iraq with terrible results

president george w bush has a little less than a year left to do good for us who don't believe in his first three years of his presidency...clinton and reagan both got enthusiastically recommissioned for the job, let's see what happens in 2004

[Robertk2012]

Ok so bush caused the downturn that had already started during the last days of clinton? Its Bush's fault teck stocks were over valued. Its Bush's fault that Clinton was un responsive to terrorism and Iraq. Clinton is nothing more than a common criminal who was in the right place at the right time. He benifited from Regan's and Bush Sr's policy and tax cuts. Please tell me one thing Clinton did to help the economy?

[Robertk2012]

Oh I bet those BJ's from Monica did wonders.

[Robertk2012]

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^IXIC&t=1y

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^DJI&t=1y

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^GSPC&t=1y

Ok those are from the last year. It doesnt get any more BULL than that.

Just look at how it has been since March.

As far as jobs go what do you want Bush to do. Keep our factories from becoming more productive. The reason for the job losses were the increases in productivity. They will only be temporary. It takes time for capital stock to catch up. The next few year are going to be some of the best ever seen in history.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Ok so bush caused the downturn that had already started during the last days of clinton? Its Bush's fault teck stocks were over valued. Its Bush's fault that Clinton was un responsive to terrorism and Iraq. Clinton is nothing more than a common criminal who was in the right place at the right time. He benifited from Regan's and Bush Sr's policy and tax cuts. Please tell me one thing Clinton did to help the economy?

you already answered that in your next post:eek: :p :p

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Ok so bush caused the downturn that had already started during the last days of clinton? Its Bush's fault teck stocks were over valued. Its Bush's fault that Clinton was un responsive to terrorism and Iraq. Clinton is nothing more than a common criminal who was in the right place at the right time. He benifited from Regan's and Bush Sr's policy and tax cuts. Please tell me one thing Clinton did to help the economy?

a late entry to the Shrillest Post of 2003 Contest

and what _is_ Don Regan up to these days? anyone know?

[Robertk2012]

??????????

[zimv20]

Originally posted by zimv20

and what _is_ Don Regan up to these days? anyone know?

oh, i see he died in june. funny i don't recall hearing about it.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Ok those are from the last year. It doesnt get any more BULL than that.

Just look at how it has been since March.

As far as jobs go what do you want Bush to do. Keep our factories from becoming more productive. The reason for the job losses were the increases in productivity. They will only be temporary. It takes time for capital stock to catch up. The next few year are going to be some of the best ever seen in history.

It does look to be a lot of bull.

I hope you are right and the next few years are some of the greatest for economic expansion in history. It will take that and then some to pay off the deficit caused by Bush's "economic" policy of tax cuts, more tax cuts, and, oh yeah, more tax cuts. Under Reagan (Regan was his Chief of Staff) we were introduced to the "voodoo" economics of giving huge tax breaks to the wealthiest few percent in hope that they "trickled down" a little of the largesse in order to jump start the economy. In Reagan's case he left us with deficits that distorted our economy and it took 8 years of Clinton's policies to get us out of the mess he inherited. Now Bush is trying to out do the Reagan years and get us in deeper in just one term! You obviously want to give Bush full credit for the recent surge in GDP, but for some reason he can't be blamed for the ballooning deficits? Last I looked, it was with budgets passed with almost exclusively Republican votes.

[Robertk2012]

Nobody has told me one good thing clinton did. I dont see how you could give him credit for the good economy while he was president. It normally takes years for pollicy to have an effect on the economy.

[kuyu]

the bottom line is.... President's don't control the economy!!!!

There is a huge difference between economic and fiscal policy. Allen Greenspan, Robert McTeer, et al control the economy. But, all they are allowed to do is buy and sell bonds and adjust interest rates.

Fiscal policy is guided by the president, but not controlled by him. Economic and fiscal policy are inter-related, but not to the extent that most people believe. The president's more like a spokesman than a CEO.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
The next few year are going to be some of the best ever seen in history. [/B]


I hope yer right. I've gotten to fill out "new hire" paper work 4 times in the past 2.5 years and that's a trend I do not want to see continue. Unskilled labor and manufacturing aren't the only low points still in the economy. The entertainment industry is still in the sh*tter. The company I work for now has been on a hiring and wage freeze for at least the last 2 years and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon. Hollywood has laid off people in record numbers over the past 2-3 years and anyone w/a job is just happy to have a job.

I think everything still looks so low because we came down from such a high. Even if the economy gets back to a "normal" or "average" state it is still going to feel low because people are going to compare it to the "good old days" in the mid-90's before it came tumbling down.

But, like I said, I hope you are right. Trying to get an industry job has been one big knock down, drag out fight after another and, frankly, it's not a fun way to spend your days. ;)


Lethal

[g5man]

Robert and Kuyu,

Welcome to the fun forum. Just a word of caution. If you plan on hanging around here please allow me to give you a couple of pointers.

As you may have already noticed those on the conservative side are small in number and not as vocal. In order to avoid being banned, you need to be willing to be laughed at and ridiculed while turning the other cheek.

Sarcasam, negativity and utter hatred for Bush (soon to be our 44th president) are the manager's specials on a daily basis. Learn to swallow bitter pills and don't get flustered or emotional.

Good Luck and look forward to more posts from you two. :)

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Nobody has told me one good thing clinton did. I dont see how you could give him credit for the good economy while he was president. It normally takes years for pollicy to have an effect on the economy.

The "reinventing government" initiative spearheaded by Al Gore reduced the number of federal employees for the first time since World War II, and Clinton made a deal with Federal Reserve Chairman Greenspan to reduce the size of the deficit and lower interest rates.

Fish in a barrel.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by g5man
Robert and Kuyu,

Welcome to the fun forum. Just a word of caution. If you plan on hanging around here please allow me to give you a couple of pointers.

As you may have already noticed those on the conservative side are small in number and not as vocal. In order to avoid being banned, you need to be willing to be laughed at and ridiculed while turning the other cheek.

Sarcasam, negativity and utter hatred for Bush are the manager's specials on a daily basis. Learn to swallow bitter pills and don't get flustered or emotional.

Good Luck and look forward to more posts from you. :)

robert and kuyu

you'll have to excuse g5man, he plays the martyr at times.

there are a good number of us on here who enjoy a healthy debate. the health of that debate depends on people being open-minded and well-informed.

all anyone asks is that people put aside stereotypes, generalities and misguided notions and instead rely on facts and referenced materials.

cheers

[g5man]

Originally posted by zimv20

there are a good number of us on here who enjoy a healthy debate. the health of that debate depends on people being open-minded and well-informed.




LOL:D :D :D

I am much too lazy to point out how ridiculous that statement was since in no way represents the way things really are. Zimv20 you have been much more sensible and diplomatic, but your friends well you know what I mean

[Robertk2012]

So why is it that at the end of clintons term interest rates steadly rose while inflation was nonexistant. Kind of foolish wasnt it. Dont you think that if interest rates had been kept low that maybe all of this could have been advoided. Oh Clinton yeah he cut back on government spending. Would someone like to guess what he cut the most. Come on its not hard. ..........Not related no matter who is president though I would like to see a major increase in spending for education. Would anyone like to argue with that?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by g5man
LOL:D :D :D

I am much too lazy to point out how ridiculous that statement was since in now way represents the way things really are. Zimv20 you have been much more sensible and diplomatic, but your friends well you know what I mean

Go throw your ****ing pity party somewhere else. No one cares.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Oh I bet those BJ's from Monica did wonders.

Wow. Great argument. You win.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
As far as jobs go what do you want Bush to do. Keep our factories from becoming more productive. The reason for the job losses were the increases in productivity.

Yeah, corporations found it's much more profitable and productive to move the factories overseas.

They will only be temporary.

How so? I thought you said the jobs were lost because of increased efficiency.

So now you're arguing that the factories will be less productive soon?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
It normally takes years for pollicy to have an effect on the economy.

Then you're saying Bush's tax cuts aren't turning the economy around? That would mean Bush lied to us!

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
So why is it that at the end of clintons term interest rates steadly rose while inflation was nonexistant. Kind of foolish wasnt it. Dont you think that if interest rates had been kept low that maybe all of this could have been advoided. Oh Clinton yeah he cut back on government spending. Would someone like to guess what he cut the most. Come on its not hard. ..........Not related no matter who is president though I would like to see a major increase in spending for education. Would anyone like to argue with that?

clinton did not enjoy the same economy at the very end of his term that he did during most of his term

but remember that he did enjoy a decent and sometimes booming economy most of his term...already more than many will say is the case with george w bush

you can look all day long and i am sure you will find some who believes that W is the best economic president of all time and that's fine...well informed experts on the economy often disagree with each other and you can find some who adore bush...in november next year, the voters will speak

and let's say the economy stinks really bad then, worse than at anytime in us history, and he still wins...that will go to show that the economy is not the sole issue

and let's say the economy is at the best we have ever seen but bush loses...same issue will be proven that the economy is not the only thing on voter's minds

because i have my own computer/network repair business and landscaping business i hope you are right about a bright next few years and i am wrong...i may end up with a president i don't like but i will be laughing all the way to the bank and i would much rather make thousands more and lose a political argument on a free for all forum where i don't even get paid (like epinions.com or some other sites):p

[Robertk2012]

Then you're saying Bush's tax cuts aren't turning the economy around? That would mean Bush lied to us!

Umm Bush's tax cuts didnt just start.


How so? I thought you said the jobs were lost because of increased efficiency.

So now you're arguing that the factories will be less productive soon?

New factories will be built. That takes time and will be a snowball effect once it starts. So the job losses will only be temporary.


;) here read this. For once I would like to thank the media for their perfect timing.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=&e=7&u=/ap/20031228/ap_on_bi_ge/economic_outlook_1

[Robertk2012]

because i have my own computer/network repair business and landscaping business i hope you are right about a bright next few years and i am wrong...i may end up with a president i don't like but i will be laughing all the way to the bank and i would much rather make thousands more and lose a political argument on a free for all forum where i don't even get paid (like epinions.com or some other sites

Well my uncle is in landscaping and has to turn down clients. He cant hire enough help or at least good help.

My Dad is a contractor and cant hardly keep up. Once again he would hire anyone that could even come close to doing the job or could be trained.

There just isnt enough people with decent job skills to hire. Just look around and take a week to think about the people you see around you. Would you pay them even $6.00 and hour let alone $15 or more.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Umm Bush's tax cuts didnt just start.

No, some have been in effect for about three years now. Clinton was in office for eight. If it takes just three years for a president's economic policies to take effect, and Clinton is the cause of the current economic downturn, why didn't the economy tank in 1996?

New factories will be built. That takes time and will be a snowball effect once it starts. So the job losses will only be temporary.

But if productivity is up, why would they need more factories? Wouldn't they just make the existing ones more efficient?

You are failing to explain the logic behind your assertions that manufacturing jobs are gone due to increased productivity but will return due to this same increased productivity.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Well my uncle is in landscaping and has to turn down clients. He cant hire enough help or at least good help.

My Dad is a contractor and cant hardly keep up. Once again he would hire anyone that could even come close to doing the job or could be trained.

So the problem with 2.5 million people is, once again, that they aren't you, your dad, uncle or qualified to work for them?

There just isnt enough people with decent job skills to hire. Just look around and take a week to think about the people you see around you. Would you pay them even $6.00 and hour let alone $15 or more.

Wow. That's an incredibly revealing thing you've disclosed there. "Look around" and see "the people" who I wouldn't hire? What a way to disqualify a potential employee.

Do you have no faith in the potential of laborers or do you just hate people?

[Robertk2012]

You have to have an increase in your capital stock( Factories large equipment)
Capital stock takes time to grow. You cant build a factory in a day. Some take years. Employment is supply based and not demand based. As long as you have people that are productive someone will find something for them to do.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
As long as you have people that are productive someone will find something for them to do.

So why did those millions lose their jobs?

You have to have an increase in your capital stock( Factories large equipment)
Capital stock takes time to grow. You cant build a factory in a day. Some take years. Employment is supply based and not demand based.

And why would these new, more efficient factories need more people? And why would they build them in the US and not in Asia?

[Robertk2012]

Not everyone around you. What I meant to say was look how many people you see that you wouldnt hire. Just look at the people you deal with in a day.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Just look around and take a week to think about the people you see around you. Would you pay them even $6.00 and hour let alone $15 or more.

wow, that's pretty hateful

[Robertk2012]

And why would these new, more efficient factories need more people? And why would they build them in the US and not in Asia?

Well why would you build them in Asia if you didnt need unskilled labor? What you have to understand is that the there is an education is going to be more and more important in the future. Eventually automation is going to take away almost all production jobs....the same way it happened with agriculture. So what is going to be the next step......Anyway you go from here the abillity to think is going to be what gets you paid. No more unskilled or speciaized skills jobs.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Not everyone around you. What I meant to say was look how many people you see that you wouldnt hire. Just look at the people you deal with in a day.

I wouldn't come to the conclusion to hire someone or not based on seeing them once or dealing with them once.

That's hateful, shallow prejudice and smacks of pride and elitism.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Well why would you build them in Asia if you didnt need unskilled labor? What you have to understand is that the there is an education is going to be more and more important in the future. Eventually automation is going to take away almost all production jobs....the same way it happened with agriculture. So what is going to be the next step......Anyway you go from here the abillity to think is going to be what gets you paid. No more unskilled or speciaized skills jobs.

Have you ever worked in a manufacturing job?

[Robertk2012]

Ok lets just take 100 random people. How many of them do you think are just lazy beyond help? How many are just stupid? (which isnt always bad if they are willing to work hard.) How many have a drug problem that would affect them at work? How many of them are untrustworthy and would steal from you? How many draw unemployement just because they can instead of working?

[Robertk2012]

Ok so what is it about those 5.7% of people unemployed that way? Yeah some of it is bad luck fo some and those should be the ones that get help. What about the others? Why is it typically the same people? Why is it 94.3% can find jobs? Not to elitist if you ask me. Im just trying to say should we really be helping those who wont help themselves. I dont see how there can even be an argument. Ok take the people that you know well....maybe even those you work with. Is there any of them that you would not hire under any condition.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Ok lets just take 100 random people. How many of them do you think are just lazy beyond help? How many are just stupid? (which isnt always bad if they are willing to work hard.) How many have a drug problem that would affect them at work? How many of them are untrustworthy and would steal from you? How many draw unemployement just because they can instead of working?

You have no faith in your fellow man.

[Robertk2012]

Have you ever worked in a manufacturing job?

Nope

Have you ever taken an economics class?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Ok so what is it about those 5.7% of people unemployed that way? Yeah some of it is bad luck fo some and those should be the ones that get help. What about the others?
...Not to elitist if you ask me. Im just trying to say should we really be helping those who wont help themselves. I dont see how there can even be an argument.

What about them? Let them die? What is your "solution"?

Why is it typically the same people?

Is it? I'd like to see some facts to back that assertion. There are some folks who are unemployable or not looking for work, but they are not included in the unemployment totals.

Ok take the people that you know well....maybe even those you work with. Is there any of them that you would not hire under any condition.

People that I know well are not "100 random people" I see as I "look around."

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Nope

Have you ever taken an economics class?

Yes. And I have worked in a factory before. My father's worked in one for 25 years. Labor will never be replaced at the levels you have predicted. Automation is very unreliable and requires cripplingly high investment.

[Robertk2012]

You have no faith in your fellow man.

I have faith. Just in 95% or so. Im just trying to show you that you are always going to have unemployment. Its not that bad of a thing. If it was around 8% then you could complain. There is plenty of jobs out there for those who want them.

Im done wasting my time unless you can come come up with a compelling argument. Just you telling me Im wrong and I dont have faith doesnt cut it. I want to hear why our economy is so bad. I cant thing of two arguements you could make that havent hardly even been mentioned.

[Robertk2012]

Yes. And I have worked in a factory before. My father's worked in one for 25 years. Labor will never be replaced at the levels you have predicted. Automation is very unreliable and requires cripplingly high investment.

Sounds like some other famous last words. Automation will reach that level. Its just a matter of time. Technology advances. Slave labor was taken away from agriculture (A very goof thing. Lets not go down that path.) and look what happened. Machinery took over. Tractors today operate by GPS and the farmer is just there for safety. Automation will advance is advancing and has advanced. New cars are being to designed to increase the amount that can be Automized. All future products will be that way. What happens when machines are building machines that build machines? The only thing left to do is use them, design them, market them, and develop new ones.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Im done wasting my time unless you can come come up with a compelling argument. Just you telling me Im wrong and I dont have faith doesnt cut it.

You not answering any of the questions I asked doesn't cut it either.

I've poked holes in your arguments with questions, and rather than use those questions to tie up the loose ends in your ideas and convince me you're right, you've ignored them and I am left to conclude that your theories are unfounded.

You're wasting your time because you're not being direct.

[Robertk2012]

What about them? Let them die? What is your "solution"?

I already said education spending should be increased. It should be the top priority.


Is it? I'd like to see some facts to back that assertion. There are some folks who are unemployable or not looking for work, but they are not included in the unemployment totals.


Why do you think time limits were placed on unemployment

People that I know well are not "100 random people" I see as I "look around."

Well they would be in someones 100 random people. And they are definatly people you see through out your day and deal with. So honestly there is some that you would never hire isnt there?

[Robertk2012]

What questions? Please what havent I answered. Maybe i missed something?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Sounds like some other famous last words. Automation will reach that level. Its just a matter of time. Technology advances. Slave labor was taken away from agriculture (A very goof thing. Lets not go down that path.) and look what happened. Machinery took over. Tractors today operate by GPS and the farmer is just there for safety. Automation will advance is advancing and has advanced.

So you think. We were promised the flying car by now, too. And interplanetary travel.

Cheap labour is still the biggest dog on the block when it comes to most manufacturing. Automation has its place, but needs to be maintained and babysat by operators, engineers and mechanics who often cost the company as much as a team of semi-skilled or unskilled laborers who could do the job sans machine.

What happens when machines are building machines that build machines?

Even more people will become lazy, unemployed scum I guess.

[Robertk2012]

No but there will be a wider gap between the haves and have nots. Care to guess what is going to be the determining factor?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
What questions? Please what havent I answered. Maybe i missed something?

Just about every post I had in the previous page has a question that you either ignored or didn't follow through on with an answer.

[Robertk2012]

Please tell me what we should be doing different?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
No but there will be a wider gap between the haves and have nots. Care to guess what is going to be the determining factor?

Parentage.

[Robertk2012]

Education....College Education. A High School diploma's value has been decline steadly in terms of real wages for quite awhile now. And it is getting worse. On the other hand a college degree has been gain at very high pace.

[Robertk2012]

I dont see any missed questions.

[pseudobrit]

What happens when everyone has a college degree? Will they need to get a Master's to gain leverage in the market? A Doctorate?

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
I dont see any missed questions.

Go back and read page 3. There's a lot of question marks in my posts.

[Robertk2012]

Eventually. Thiink about what has defined civilatizations of the years. It has been their education. For our contry to remain on of the best in the world we need to push for higher education.

[Robertk2012]

I did go back. Pleas repost any unresolved questions. You never answer mine about the people you know and work with.

[Robertk2012]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
What happens when everyone has a college degree? Will they need to get a Master's to gain leverage in the market? A Doctorate?

So are you saying we would be better off if no one had any kind of education. People who live in poverty in the U.S. have a higher standad of living than most countries in the world. So I guess that is a bad thing too.

[Robertk2012]

off topic but i just want to laugh at Howard Dean. :D Please dont tell me anyone is voting for him.

[Robertk2012]

Im waiting

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Im waiting

you asked that no one say anything. welcome to the sound of all of us being quiet.

[Sun Baked]

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
"I made pancakes for breakfast. Then I stuck them to the sides of my head and made noises like I was a Tie Fighter."

okay...

[kuyu]

Originally posted by g5man
Robert and Kuyu,

As you may have already noticed those on the conservative side are small in number and not as vocal. In order to avoid being banned, you need to be willing to be laughed at and ridiculed while turning the other cheek.


And how! I'm definately a minority here, but I don't take politics all that seriously anyway. People often mistake my sarcasm for seriousness, and I get soooooo many nasty replies because of it. However, most of the nasty ones are totally based on a misunderstanding to begin with, so I just shrug them off.

For example, I didn't vote for bush, but if I fail to disagree with him on one issue I become a "bush-lover." :confused:

Ah well, zealots will be zealots and politicians will be liars. :) I, however, will remain totally useless and irreverent.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
off topic but i just want to laugh at Howard Dean. :D Please dont tell me anyone is voting for him.

As I've said in many threads before this I haven't decided yet. A choice between Dean, Clark, or Kerry is what I'm wrestling with. Please don't tell me you are voting for the frat boy who stole the election and gave us the most incompetent leadership and the most dangerous slide into antidemocratic and unconstitutional abuses of power in our lifetimes?;)

And if you are still looking for Clinton's accomplishments try this list (http://members.tripod.com/~Scott_Michaud/Clinton-Administration-Record.html) I found in a quick internet search for starters:

Longest economic expansion in American history
The President’s strategy of fiscal discipline, open foreign markets and investments in the American people helped create the conditions for a record 115 months of economic expansion. Our economy has grown at an average of 4 percent per year since 1993.

More than 22 million new jobs
More than 22 million jobs were created in less than eight years -- the most ever under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous twelve years.

Highest homeownership in American history
A strong economy and fiscal discipline kept interest rates low, making it possible for more families to buy homes. The homeownership rate increased from 64.2 percent in 1992 to 67. 7 percent, the highest rate ever.

Lowest unemployment in 30 years
Unemployment dropped from more than 7 percent in 1993 to just 4.0 percent in November 2000. Unemployment for African Americans and Hispanics fell to the lowest rates on record, and the rate for women is the lowest in more than 40 years.

Raised education standards, increased school choice, and doubled education and training investment
Since 1992, reading and math scores have increased for 4th, 8th, and 12th graders, math SAT scores are at a 30-year high, the number of charter schools has grown from 1 to more than 2,000, forty-nine states have put in place standards in core subjects and federal investment in education and training has doubled.

Largest expansion of college opportunity since the GI Bill
President Clinton and Vice President Gore have nearly doubled financial aid for students by increasing Pell Grants to the largest award ever, expanding Federal Work-Study to allow 1 million students to work their way through college, and by creating new tax credits and scholarships such as Lifetime Learning tax credits and the HOPE scholarship. At the same time, taxpayers have saved $18 billion due to the decline in student loan defaults, increased collections and savings from the direct student loan program.

Connected 95 percent of schools to the Internet
President Clinton and Vice President Gore’s new commitment to education technology, including the E-Rate and a 3,000 percent increase in educational technology funding, increased the percentage of schools connected to the Internet from 35 percent in 1994 to 95 percent in 1999.

Lowest crime rate in 26 years
Because of President Clinton’s comprehensive anti-crime strategy of tough penalties, more police, and smart prevention, as well as common sense gun safety laws, the overall crime rate declined for 8 consecutive years, the longest continuous drop on record, and is at the lowest level since 1973.

100,000 more police for our streets
As part of the 1994 Crime Bill, President Clinton enacted a new initiative to fund 100,000 community police officers. To date more than 11,000 law enforcement agencies have received COPS funding.

Enacted most sweeping gun safety legislation in a generation
Since the President signed the Brady bill in 1993, more than 600,000 felons, fugitives, and other prohibited persons have been stopped from buying guns. Gun crime has declined 40 percent since 1992.

Family and Medical Leave Act for 20 million Americans
To help parents succeed at work and at home, President Clinton signed the Family and Medical Leave Act in 1993. Over 20 million Americans have taken unpaid leave to care for a newborn child or sick family member.

Smallest welfare rolls in 32 years
The President pledged to end welfare as we know it and signed landmark bipartisan welfare reform legislation in 1996. Since then, caseloads have been cut in half, to the lowest level since 1968, and millions of parents have joined the workforce. People on welfare today are five times more likely to be working than in 1992.

Higher incomes at all levels
After falling by nearly $2,000 between 1988 and 1992, the median family’s income rose by $6,338, after adjusting for inflation, since 1993. African American family income increased even more, rising by nearly $7,000 since 1993. After years of stagnant income growth among average and lower income families, all income brackets experienced double-digit growth since 1993. The bottom 20 percent saw the largest income growth at 16.3 percent.

Lowest poverty rate in 20 years
Since Congress passed President Clinton’s Economic Plan in 1993, the poverty rate declined from 15.1 percent to 11.8 percent last year — the largest six-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years. There are now 7 million fewer people in poverty than in 1993. The child poverty rate declined more than 25 percent, the poverty rates for single mothers, African Americans and the elderly have dropped to their lowest levels on record, and Hispanic poverty dropped to its lowest level since 1979.

Lowest teen birth rate in 60 years
In his 1995 State of the Union Address, President Clinton challenged Americans to join together in a national campaign against teen pregnancy. The birth rate for teens aged 15-19 declined every year of the Clinton Presidency, from 60.7 per 1,000 teens in 1992 to a record low of 49.6 in 1999.

Lowest infant mortality rate in American history
The Clinton Administration expanded efforts to provide mothers and newborn children with health care. Today, a record high 82 percent of all mothers receive prenatal care. The infant mortality rate has dropped from 8.5 deaths per 1,000 in 1992 to 7.2 deaths per 1,000 in 1998, the lowest rate ever recorded.

Deactivated more than 1,700 nuclear warheads from the former Soviet Union
Efforts of the Clinton-Gore Administration led to the dismantling of more than 1,700 nuclear warheads, 300 launchers and 425 land and submarine based missiles from the former Soviet Union.

Protected millions of acres of American land
President Clinton has protected more land in the lower 48 states than any other president. He has protected 5 new national parks, designated 11 new national monuments and expanded two others and proposed protections for 60 million acres of roadless areas in America’s national forests.

Paid off $360 billion of the national debt
Between 1998-2000, the national debt was reduced by $363 billion — the largest three-year debt pay-down in American history. We are now on track to pay off the entire debt by 2009.

Converted the largest budget deficit in American history to the largest surplus
Thanks in large part to the 1993 Deficit Reduction Act, the 1997 Balanced Budget Act, and President Clinton’s call to save the surplus for debt reduction, Social Security, and Medicare solvency, America has put its fiscal house in order. The deficit was $290 billion in 1993 and expected to grow to $455 billion by this year. Instead, we have a projected surplus of $237 billion.

Lowest government spending in three decades
Under President Clinton federal government spending as a share of the economy has decreased from 22.2 percent in 1992 to a projected 18.5 percent in 2000, the lowest since 1966.

Lowest federal income tax burden in 35 years
President Clinton enacted targeted tax cuts such as the Earned Income Tax Credit expansion, $500 child tax credit, and the HOPE Scholarship and Lifetime Learning Tax Credits. Federal income taxes as a percentage of income for the typical American family have dropped to their lowest level in 35 years.

By January 2001, more families owned stock than ever before
The number of families owning stock in the United States increased by 40 percent since 1992.

Most diverse cabinet in American history
President Clinton appointed more African Americans, women and Hispanics to the Cabinet than any other President in history. He appointed the first female Attorney General, the first female Secretary of State and the first Asian American cabinet secretary ever.

All of the above are as of Jan. 2001. Now how many jobs has Dubya created?

I have my own arguments with Clinton, but they have nothing to do with his economic legacy. Any objective view of Clinton's economic accomplishments must be a positive one.

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by zimv20
okay... At least I'm not quoting myself, like you are in this thread.

But that type of behavior makes loads of sense when people read your signature.

And there sure seems to be huge amount of multiple posts. :eek:

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
At least I'm not quoting myself, like you are in this thread.

But that type of behavior makes loads of sense when people read your signature.

And there sure seems to be huge amount of multiple posts. :eek:

just a little mis-quoting fun. and now i'm hungry for pancakes. mmmm.... flat....

[jefhatfield]

people, stop picking on robert...and realize also that he is new to these forums

i agree with him that education is a very important issue and neither political party should take the subject lightly

robert, i commend you for finishing college, or pursuing finishing college and even though i finished college a decade ago, i still enroll every semester in undergraduate and graduate classes in different subjects to keep current with my businesses...and at 40, i find there are even older and more educated people than me and they still believe in lifelong learning whether they have a degree, two, or three, or not at all, or whether their goal is knowledge, a degree/certification, or both

but i think a lot of where people are attacking you is your lack of 10 or 20 years on the workforce, or in manufacturing jobs, or any job...if your profile is correct, you are 22 and just getting a degree or working on it at that age is a worthy accomplishment in itself

i don't care if you provide links or answer questions to liberal challenges to your philosophy, but realize that your youth may make you sound ignorant, though well meaning, and basing your ideas on theories taught in school more than real life experience

in time, you will have both your degree and many years of work experience and if you still hold your same beliefs, the more power to you...at least you will have a vantage point...one of the most maddening things for anybody to hear is a point of view with the lack of a vantage point...a terrible point of view that no one agrees with, but with a vantage point, is far more respected

i used to battle with backtothemac, the resident republican here, on many issues concerning politics and the military...but he served our country in the military, he has a political science degree, he has a history degree, and he has been in the workforce for many years and i believe he is in his late 30s or slightly older...when he comes up with a point i find preposterous, at least i know he didn't pull it out of thin air

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Im waiting

I'm waiting too. It's not hard to look back on page three, but here, I'll make it easy for you.


1)
(a)How so? I thought you said the jobs were lost because of increased efficiency.

So now you're arguing that the factories will be less productive soon?

(b)But if productivity is up, why would they need more factories? Wouldn't they just make the existing ones more efficient?

You are failing to explain the logic behind your assertions that manufacturing jobs are gone due to increased productivity but will return due to this same increased productivity.


2)
(a)Then you're saying Bush's tax cuts aren't turning the economy around?

(b)No, some have been in effect for about three years now. Clinton was in office for eight. If it takes just three years for a president's economic policies to take effect, and Clinton is the cause of the current economic downturn, why didn't the economy tank in 1996?


3) So why did those millions lose their jobs [if labour is supply-based]?


4) (a) What about them? Let them die? What is your "solution"?

(b)Is it? I'd like to see some facts to back that assertion. There are some folks who are unemployable or not looking for work, but they are not included in the unemployment totals.

[Sun Baked]

Blah, it's not a real question... Multiple guess.
(a)How so? I thought you said the jobs were lost because of increased efficiency/productivity.

So now you're arguing that the factories will be less productive soon?Wal-Mart economy. Biggest region of efficiency in the US.

Makes factories more efficient due to increased price pressure. And this extreme pressure forces ever increasing cost cuts at the factory.

But Wal-Marts pressure soon forces the factories to close and seek lower price regions of the world. They cannot maintain the Wal-Mart contract in the US -- and it's typically a HUGE contract.

Some of these factories have moved from typical factory nations to near third-world countries to keep up with the ever lower prices Wal-Mart is willing to pay.

Good for developing nations, bad for the US if too many companies follow the Wal-Mart model for increased factory efficiency.(b)But if productivity is up, why would they need more factories? Wouldn't they just make the existing ones more efficient?

You are failing to explain the logic behind your assertions that manufacturing jobs are gone due to increased productivity but will return due to this same increased productivity.Once these companies move offshore they typically don't come back...

Unless I missed something by failing to read anything again. :rolleyes:

Labor unions are great, but they mean that there has to be enough profit in a product to keep the factory open.

Which means that a lot of factory jobs in the US will move to high skill jobs, which may cut out a lot of people who fail to graduate.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
people, stop picking on robert...and realize also that he is new to these forums

jeff,

I wasn't trying to pick on the guy. I tried to respond to his questions. Maybe giving a little back for the insinuation that voting for Dean is somehow a crazy thing to do, but still trying to be civil. Glad to know he is so young; I hadn't bothered to check.

[Robertk2012]

Those questions were not there. And are still not there.

[Robertk2012]

oh well this is a waste of time. Im sorry we are in such a depression. If you were going to make an arguement you should have pointed to the twin deficits.

oh and dean is a two faced liar who cant make up his mind about anything. I cant believe he is trying to blame bush for mad cow. Come on make a decent arguement dont just blame someone else. **** happens. Move on. I want to hear about what you want to accomplish in the future. Not what you would have done different.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Sayhey
jeff,

I wasn't trying to pick on the guy. I tried to respond to his questions. Maybe giving a little back for the insinuation that voting for Dean is somehow a crazy thing to do, but still trying to be civil. Glad to know he is so young; I hadn't bothered to check.

it may not specifically be pointing at any one poster...but it looks like a big left wing brigade attacking the latest conservative newcomer to these forums and that is just what i think arn and the mods don't want...it's prolly a five to one ratio here of dems to gop on these forums the last few years

i always try and find out a little bit about any given poster so i can try and relate on some topic i may have in common with them and even if i disagree, at least i know somewhat who i am disagreeing with...if i am debating with a person i think is a man but is really a woman, then weird misunderstandings can happen and people could get offended and that is why there are moderators here, and also why there is a profile section if people so wish to state facts about themselves

[zimv20]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
it's prolly a five to one ratio here of dems to gop on these forums the last few years


i can't speak to the last five years, but when i started posting in this section in March, it was _way_ different

[kuyu]

jefhatfield, It is incredibly refreshing to read a post that's not loaded with slanders. I also made robert's mistake and let it known that I myself am conservative. It's too bad that more people don't share your level-headed appreciation for diversity.

Also, the five to one is about the right ratio here. So, to apease the naysaying majority I have appended my signature. For some perspective, on this board we conservatives feel like a mac user in a room full of peecee'ers that hate people who use mac's. (I even have a switch story for this too!)

Though we may disagree on some issues, there are many more we can agree on.

Best holiday wishes to you and yours, and I look forward to additional 'civilized' disagreements in the future.:)

[g5man]

Originally posted by kuyu
jefhatfield, It is incredibly refreshing to read a post that's not loaded with slanders. I also made robert's mistake and let it known that I myself am conservative. It's too bad that more people don't share your level-headed appreciation for diversity.

Also, the five to one is about the right ratio here. So, to apease the naysaying majority I have appended my signature. For some perspective, on this board we conservatives feel like a mac user in a room full of peecee'ers that hate people who use mac's. (I even have a switch story for this too!)

Though we may disagree on some issues, there are many more we can agree on.

Best holiday wishes to you and yours, and I look forward to additional 'civilized' disagreements in the future.:)

Have a Happy New year. For fun do a little research on past debates going back a while (look for ones on the economy and taxes) and you will understand this forum even more.

Jef has described it rather well.

And if I were you I would change that signature once again, because it is enflaming and you will be banned.

[Robertk2012]

If he is banned for that then you better go ahead and ban me.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
it may not specifically be pointing at any one poster...but it looks like a big left wing brigade attacking the latest conservative newcomer to these forums and that is just what i think arn and the mods don't want...it's prolly a five to one ratio here of dems to gop on these forums the last few years

i always try and find out a little bit about any given poster so i can try and relate on some topic i may have in common with them and even if i disagree, at least i know somewhat who i am disagreeing with...if i am debating with a person i think is a man but is really a woman, then weird misunderstandings can happen and people could get offended and that is why there are moderators here, and also why there is a profile section if people so wish to state facts about themselves

jeff,
I usually do try and checkout the profiles of new users, just didn't do it this time. All I can say is that I see many, many left-liberal posters who try very hard to deal with issues and not personalities. If there are those who go overboard with ad hominem attacks, usually either the rest of us try and say something or the mods step in. I would remind you of a few conservative trolls who have visited over the months I've been posting and have been justifiably banned. I like to read views from conservatives who know how to argue their case. I don't like folks who just throw out slanders with nothing to back them up. I haven't seen enough of Robertk2012 to make up my mind what category he fits in.

[Robertk2012]

No troll but you probally wont see much of me. No point in arguing. Wont anyone even aclnowledge if they do agree. Like my question about the people you work with. I was just trying to make a point that people are going to be unemployed no matter what. You cant help someone if they wont hel themself. Im just here for the talk about apple. I dont know how I got pulled into this. Im not saying bush is great or is even worth a damn, but you can trust him to do what he believes to be right. I cant say that about many politicians, republican or democrat. Dean cannot be trusted. Neither can Clark. Like I siad before I dont want to hear how bad bush is, i want to hear how good you are. I hope the Bush campain does not stoop to their level but I fear he may have to. It seem the smear tactics have the best effect. Still would someone please show me how this economy is so bad. We had a typical downturn do to a cyclical economy. The Bush policies might have extended it but definatly kept it from being as severe as what it might have been. Please tell me what you would have done different than what was done.
Tell me what you would be doing if you were president. I said what i would do.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Wont anyone even aclnowledge if they do agree.


all right, let's do a line by line. but first, i agree that education needs to be more of a priority in the US.


Like my question about the people you work with. I was just trying to make a point that people are going to be unemployed no matter what. You cant help someone if they wont hel themself.


yes, there will always be some unemployment. where you're sounding dodgy is by relying on the old "it's the lazy people who are out of work" argument.

the last couple years have been filled w/ media reports of the jobless recovery and high-tech and manufacturing jobs going overseas. there are still 2.5 million fewer jobs now than when bush took office, not counting the vast numbers of people who've stopped looking for work and don't show up on the unemployment reports.

your point about better-jobs-through-higher-education is well taken, but it doesn't solve the problem now for people who rely on the manufacturing segment for jobs -- a segment which held much promise for careers when people were making such decisions (e.g. you can't expect a lifetime machinist to go back to school at age 60).


Im not saying bush is great or is even worth a damn, but you can trust him to do what he believes to be right.


if you examine how his policy decisions benefit his friends and campaign contributors, you may come to the conclusion that policy is for sale.

a lot of people think bush (who's estimated to be worth between $9-26 million) is a plain talking, straight shooter who cares for the common man.

that's because his image has been carefully constructed to convey that. do you think he's trustworthy because of that or in spite of it?

Dean cannot be trusted. Neither can Clark.


i'm not sure what you're basing that on. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it's based on some critical analysis of dean's gov't policies and clark's...well... not sure what.


Like I siad before I dont want to hear how bad bush is, i want to hear how good you are.


me, personally? well, i pay my taxes and i entertain people w/ my acting and writing. i'm generally nice to people and often answer rhetorical questions.


I hope the Bush campain does not stoop to their level but I fear he may have to. It seem the smear tactics have the best effect.


negative campaigning has been going on for as long as i've followed politics. you can bet rove and the RNC are working _very_ hard to smear any/all the democratic front runners. and you can be certain the DNC is doing the same for bush.

to say that someone will 'start it' is naive.

btw, what did you think of the RNC's treatment of cleland?


Still would someone please show me how this economy is so bad. We had a typical downturn do to a cyclical economy. The Bush policies might have extended it but definatly kept it from being as severe as what it might have been. Please tell me what you would have done different than what was done.


i'd balance the budget, close corporate loopholes and get corps to pay their fair share (which has fallen from 40% of tax burden to 16% over the past 30 years), and not lower taxes for the highest bracket (which i've paid, btw).

i can't prove to you the bush economic policies are bad -- only time will tell.

of course massive tax cuts and huge spending gains will stimulate the economy short term. but the budget deficit is record huge and getting bigger, projected shortfalls are so bad that the WH censured a CBO forecast report, the dollar is weakening, jobs are moving overseas, states and cities are cutting essential services and raising taxes and fees....

....and all anyone cares about is whether or not their raw income tax rate gets cut (even when their overall tax burden increases).

[Rower_CPU]

Since the topic of banning has been broached by certain posters, I feel I need to step in and give the official position on the topic to eliminate some misconceptions.

First off, if you haven't already, read The Rules™ (http://forums.macrumors.com/announcement.php?s=&forumid=4). If you think your post or signature could cross any of the lines drawn out by the rules, don't do it.

We moderators are more hands-off these days, so if you have a problem with someone's post/sig, report it. We will not be actively monitoring discussions/posters.

Keep it civil and your discussions will go fine. :)

[kuyu]

Originally posted by g5man

And if I were you I would change that signature once again, because it is enflaming and you will be banned.

See what I meant by "tyrranical majority."

This is my last post that in any way relates to politics. It's sad that free speech only applies if you support the majority opinion.

Like Thomas Jefferson in the "Federalist Papers", I now see what majority tyrrany can lead to. Stereotypes and the fear they engender -- not guns and missles -- are the greatest danger to our society.

Good luck with your crusade.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by kuyu
See what I meant by "tyrranical majority."

This is my last post that in any way relates to politics. It's sad that free speech only applies if you support the majority opinion.

Like Thomas Jefferson in the "Federalist Papers", I now see what majority tyrrany can lead to. Stereotypes and the fear they engender -- not guns and missles -- are the greatest danger to our society.

Good luck with your crusade.

kuyu,

the martyr act is a little thin. No one is forcing you out of these discussions. Abide by the rules like everyone else and your position will be respected, though undoubtedly argued with. If you wanted everyone to acknowledge your genius then you did come to the wrong place. And next time, think again before comparing yourself to Thomas Jefferson -- it's a little over the top.

[Robertk2012]

The senate needs to... eliminate the death tax [estate taxes], so that people who build up assets are able to transfer them from one generation to the next
-- Aristocrat GW Bush



I found that signature to be offensive. I didnt see anyone complaining about it. People just need to get a life. Say what you want, it doesnt bother me.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
The senate needs to... eliminate the death tax [estate taxes], so that people who build up assets are able to transfer them from one generation to the next
-- Aristocrat GW Bush



I found that signature to be offensive. I didnt see anyone complaining about it. People just need to get a life. Say what you want, it doesnt bother me.

Did I miss something? It was g5man, who hardly disagrees with kuyu's signature line that raised the issue. Put what you want, within the rules of the forum, in your sig no one is complaining that I see. And if you think there is some kind of liberal "swarm" on the poor conservatives, I'd look at the number of posts in this thread and by whom. Unless you think jeff is a liberal (he describes himself as a "blue dog democrat") I think you and your conservative friends are aptly represented. How about stopping the complaining and deal with the issues of the thread -- as wide ranging as this one is.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Robertk2012

I found that signature to be offensive.

then report it

[mactastic]

I actually find it to be offensive as well, but probably not for the same reasons. :D

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by mactastic
I actually find it to be offensive as well, but probably not for the same reasons. :D After reading a thread in "this" forum, it's sort of sad that I can't make this (http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=197657) my signature. :(

Yes I'm lumping Republicans and Democrats into a single large group. :p

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by mactastic
I actually find it to be offensive as well, but probably not for the same reasons. :D

I can't figure out what is offensive about it. It certainly reflects Bush's position. If the problem is with the tag "aristocrat" then if the Bush family, along with the Gore family and a few others, aren't the US versions of aristocrats then I don't know who qualifies?

edit: go for it Sunbaked

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Sayhey
I can't figure out what is offensive about it. It certainly reflects Bush's position. If the problem is with the tag "aristocrat" then if the Bush family, along with the Gore family and a few others, aren't the US versions of aristocrats then I don't know who qualifies?

edit: go for it Sunbaked

Personally I find it offensive that GWB would say it, but that's just my opinion. I've got no problem with anyone using it for a sig. Heck I didn't complain when DontHurtMe had that thing about godless democrats and Christmas in his sig.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
After reading a thread in "this" forum, it's sort of sad that I can't make this (http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=197657) my signature. :(

Yes I'm lumping Republicans and Democrats into a single large group. :p

Agreed, go for it. Mine's due for an update soon, I've been entertainning "I'll try to be nicer if you'll try to be smarter." but that seems a little too antagonistic. I'm looking for something more subtle.:p

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by mactastic
Agreed, go for it. Mine's due for an update soon, I've been entertainning "I'll try to be nicer if you'll try to be smarter." but that seems a little too antagonistic. I'm looking for something more subtle.:p Sort of sad we cannot have a picture in the signature, but looking at some of the other site with those HUGE flashy signatures. It's probably a good thing.

It's bad enough when some people go through the period of having the HUGE multiline signatures, then end up delivering one-liners day after day. ;)

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Sort of sad we cannot have a picture in the signature, but looking at some of the other site with those HUGE flashy signatures. It's probably a good thing.

It's bad enough when some people go through the period of having the HUGE multiline signatures, then end up delivering one-liners day after day. ;)

mac, I think he just took a shot at us! I'm hurt, truly hurt, that our multiline sigs are called into question here. ;)

[mactastic]

Ouch, I've been zinged!

[Taft]

This thread is absolute crap.

g5man, why is it that you feel the need to tell everyone how put down upon you are? Maybe its because of threads like this one: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13170

I know you can't see your old posts as Ovi (we all know it was you) because you deleted them yourself. But you can piece together most of it from the quotes.

Or how about this gem of a thread? http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18084

Or this one:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19325

Or this one:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18234


I can come up with a huge list of threads where someone is calling a liberal a hippie, tree hugger or communist. Or where someone is saying that the French are cowardly ingrates. Or where someone is saying that liberals hate America or are anti-Christian.

Go through those threads and honestly look at the arguments being made. Time and time again there is someone who is ignoring arguments and valid questions that have been asked and throwing around (in parlance of the times) hate speech.

I'm not saying all conservatives on the board are this irrational (BTTM and Desertrat prove that this isn't the case). But there have been quite a few conservatives on these boards with nasty mouths, quick tempers, and who enjoy attacking liberals (even the ones who respond carefully and rationally to opposing arguments). These people deserved to be banned and I'm glad they are gone. Don't point to these individuals as examples of the supposed bias on these boards.

And are you saying that there is bias in the moderating on these forums?? Prove it. Search the forums and point out one example of a user being unfairly banned or censored.

Taft

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Sayhey
mac, I think he just took a shot at us! I'm hurt, truly hurt, that our multiline sigs are called into question here. ;)

i think it was a shot at me, too, in retaliation for my 'pancake/tie fighter' stunt. earlier in this thread, sunbaked wrote:

At least I'm not quoting myself, like you are in this thread.

But that type of behavior makes loads of sense when people read your signature.


honestly, i thought he would get a kick out of it. now my entire 2004 is ruined.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by zimv20
i think it was a shot at me, too, in retaliation for my 'pancake/tie fighter' stunt. earlier in this thread, sunbaked wrote:


honestly, i thought he would get a kick out of it. now my entire 2004 is ruined.

zim if it makes you feel any better, and maybe it's just a Chicago/San Francisco kind of thing, but I thought it was funny. Must be all those hours with my ex playing "Storm Trooper and Leia in the slave girl costume." Oops, too much information.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Sayhey
Must be all those hours with my ex playing "Storm Trooper and Leia in the slave girl costume."

...which suddenly gives a whole new meaning to the term 'tie fighter'...

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by zimv20
...which suddenly gives a whole new meaning to the term 'tie fighter'...

All right I give! For now anyway, I know when I'm overmatched. I'm taking my kids to a Hugh Grant movie and when I return I'll think of a real pithy reply. :p

[kuyu]

Originally posted by Sayhey
kuyu,

the martyr act is a little thin. No one is forcing you out of these discussions. Abide by the rules like everyone else and your position will be respected, though undoubtedly argued with. If you wanted everyone to acknowledge your genius then you did come to the wrong place. And next time, think again before comparing yourself to Thomas Jefferson -- it's a little over the top.

I'm sorry if my "tone" was in the spirit of a martyr. I originally changed my sig as a joke, but I guess no one got it. But, I was accused of "enflaming", so I'll try to keep my jokes to myself. So, after a few blasts, and some clear-minded analysis (jefhatfield:)), I just changed it again. I'm trying to think of something witty for my next post.

BTW, glad to see your well read. The histories (if I remember right) was an enlightning read to say the least. My old favorite is still the Odyssey. And Telemachus is the coolest literary name ever.

SUM: sorry to those my joke offended, "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" to those who got it, umkay. Happy New Year.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
I found that signature to be offensive. I didnt see anyone complaining about it. People just need to get a life. Say what you want, it doesnt bother me.

Report it, please. If it is a personal attack against someone here, it is offensive and it will be dealt with. If not, then maybe I'm not the one who needs to get a life.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by Robertk2012
Those questions were not there. And are still not there.

I pulled those questions directly out of my posts on page three of this thread.

If you cannot or will not read what I post in response to your arguments, it's not my fault. I told you repeatedly where to find the questions and you "missed" then.

Then I collected them in a single post for you and you still fail to respond to them. I must conclude that you cannot stand behind your arguments.

You can't argue one way and declare yourself the victor. Or in this case, the martyr.

[g5man]

Look I forgot to put my rolling eyes face when I made the statement about the signature.

I loved it, but I wanted to keep Kuyu from getting banned.

Taft,

I don't have time to point out how crazy some of you assertions are. Nor am I going to take the time. Posts and history speak for themselfs.

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by kuyu
I'm sorry if my "tone" was in the spirit of a martyr. I originally changed my sig as a joke, but I guess no one got it. But, I was accused of "enflaming", so I'll try to keep my jokes to myself. So, after a few blasts, and some clear-minded analysis (jefhatfield:)), I just changed it again. I'm trying to think of something witty for my next post.

BTW, glad to see your well read. The histories (if I remember right) was an enlightning read to say the least. My old favorite is still the Odyssey. And Telemachus is the coolest literary name ever.

SUM: sorry to those my joke offended, "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" to those who got it, umkay. Happy New Year.

Glad you like the Odyssey. If you want a new translation to read, try Rodney Merrill's stab at the old blind man's poem. He did his in the same meter as the original so it gives a new "flavor" to an English translation. I'm still trying to learn to read the greek version and that seems to be a long way off to success.

I'll be looking forward to your next post.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by g5man
Posts and history speak for themselfs.

Goddamn if that ain't the truth!

[vniow]

Originally posted by g5man
Posts and history speak for themselfs.

IP adresses too.

[Sun Baked]

Is this thread off topic yet?

[kuyu]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Is this thread off topic yet?

aren't they all?