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MacRumors
Dec 29, 2003, 02:25 AM
Amidst the buzz surrounding the rumored "mini" iPods coming, MacRumors has received reliable confirmation that new iPods will be announced at MacWorld San Francisco.

The new iPods will be physically smaller than current iPods. The "mini" description reportedly refers not only to the diminished capacity (2GB and 4GB by some reports), but also to the physical size of the units.

The mini iPods will also come in a variety of solid colors as previously reported... but no confirmation on patterns/stripes. At least one of the colors intended is reported to be "Gold" (not plated).

Pricing of the new iPods remains unclear -- with conflicting reports, but is reportedly significantly less current models.

Marlon_JBT
Dec 29, 2003, 02:27 AM
Any news on pricing?

macnews
Dec 29, 2003, 02:29 AM
not sure I would like to see a flavor of colored mini-ipods, but my wife will like it if I get her one. Hopefully these will be in the 100-200 price range.

toughboy
Dec 29, 2003, 02:30 AM
oh god! lets hope they wont be cheessy!

white is good, maybe black would go good but, to keep the idea of simplicity, I wouldnt release it with a thousand color choices!.. lets keep it simple..

small capacity with low price is a good idea though!...

I'm sure Apple is gonna make something cool.. lets wait and see...

arn
Dec 29, 2003, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Marlon_JBT
Any news on pricing?

exact amount is unclear, but (obviously) less then current models.

arn

toughboy
Dec 29, 2003, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by arn
exact amount is unclear, but (obviously) less then current models.

arn

would you consider expecting something around 100$ as optimism??

awulf
Dec 29, 2003, 02:35 AM
I hope they have a white coloured one.

If these mini iPods are any good and cheap I might buy one since I have about $100 to spend.

If it cant be used as a storage device then I wont be buying one.

arn
Dec 29, 2003, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by toughboy
would you consider expecting something around 100$ as optimism??

well, let me put it this way....

and this is without any particular inside knowledge... but simply looking at the existing industry.

$99 Flash MP3 players on the market right now top out at 128MB

2GB MicroDrives cost $250+ for the drives alone. [edit: $350 here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=302869&is=REG)]

I don't see how Apple's going to sell them at $99 for 2GB... but who knows...

arn

toughboy
Dec 29, 2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by awulf
I hope they have a white coloured one.

If these mini iPods are any good and cheap I might buy one since I have about $100 to spend.

If it cant be used as a storage device then I wont be buying one.

another question is, if they will have a harddrive just like the normal versions, or a memory-like thing..

harddrive solution would be lot cheaper though...

Trowaman
Dec 29, 2003, 02:43 AM
Well, it sounds cool and good for the company. I have a few friends saying they'd jump on them if they are a cheap as we all hope ($99). But I got what I wanted for X-mas so it doens;t really affect me any more.

*Hint what I got is small white and is 20 gigs of fun :D

toughboy
Dec 29, 2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Trowaman
Well, it sounds cool and good for the company. I have a few friends saying they'd jump on them if they are a cheap as we all hope ($99). But I got what I wanted for X-mas so it doens;t really affect me any more.

*Hint what I got is small white and is 20 gigs of fun :D

congrats...

it sounds 10 times fun as those 2gigs "mini" ipods! ;)

hope u'll enjoy..

ITR 81
Dec 29, 2003, 02:49 AM
Why do they have to be painted?

I think most would like to change them sortof like you can do with Nokia phones.

iPod news is good but no PM's for Jan. is making me wonder if the 3Ghz will come before the deadline....

Nermal
Dec 29, 2003, 02:50 AM
This multi-colour idea could be a nightmare for resellers. The popular colours would sell quickly, and the unpopular colours will start piling up in the warehouse. Didn't they have the same problem with the multicoloured iMacs?

toughboy
Dec 29, 2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by arn
well, let me put it this way....

and this is without any particular inside knowledge... but simply looking at the existing industry.

$99 Flash MP3 players on the market right now top out at 128MB

2GB MicroDrives cost $250+ for the drives alone. [edit: $350 here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=302869&is=REG)]

I don't see how Apple's going to sell them at $99 for 2GB... but who knows...

arn

I see..

but I mean, 300$ is the 10gb vers, and if its gonna be something like 250, then, either this rumor is fake, or it wont sell!

I would still expect 99$ for 2 gigs and 149$ for 4gigs, if somehow they are going to be released...

arn
Dec 29, 2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by toughboy
I see..

but I mean, 300$ is the 10gb vers, and if its gonna be something like 250, then, either this rumor is fake, or it wont sell!

I would still expect 99$ for 2 gigs and 149$ for 4gigs, if somehow they are going to be released...

yep, I believe this rumor (cheaper, mini ipods) , so I guess we have to assume Apple somehow got pricing down.

arn

ITR 81
Dec 29, 2003, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by Nermal
This multi-colour idea could be a nightmare for resellers. The popular colours would sell quickly, and the unpopular colours will start piling up in the warehouse. Didn't they have the same problem with the multicoloured iMacs?

Thats why I think they should go the coloured shell route. Means resellers don't get stuck with unpopular colours.

bertagert
Dec 29, 2003, 03:16 AM
I'm going to stick to my guns and say no mini ipods will come out. If Apple does a small flash (256mb - 512mb) I guess it could be done. However, I don't see it.

iomar
Dec 29, 2003, 03:17 AM
Wow, this will be great! Can't wait to get one of them!

displaced
Dec 29, 2003, 03:25 AM
Re: the colouring:

Maybe this will see Apple use their patented process on colouring plastics?

At any rate, I'd imagine the process would be similar to that which they used on the Dalmation and Flower Power iMacs. The quality of this process was excellent, although the actual patterns weren't to everyone's taste ;)

I'm sure Mr. Ive won't let cheesyness rule.

caveman_uk
Dec 29, 2003, 03:43 AM
Am I the only one who thinks $100 ipods are really unlikely? You only have to look at the price of RAM to know that 2GB costs more than $100. As another reader pointed out those IBM minidrives aren't exactly cheap either...

Maybe Apple has found a way of giving reasonably large storage and low price but given their love of margins I doubt it. Something has to give - either it ain't $100 or it ain't multi-GB

splashman
Dec 29, 2003, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by displaced
Re: the colouring:

Maybe this will see Apple use their patented process on colouring plastics?

At any rate, I'd imagine the process would be similar to that which they used on the Dalmation and Flower Power iMacs. The quality of this process was excellent, although the actual patterns weren't to everyone's taste ;)

I'm sure Mr. Ive won't let cheesyness rule.

Uh, Mr. Ive presided over the toilet-seat-cover iBooks, the candy-colored iMacs and the Dalmatian / Flower Power mess. Looking at them now is like looking at 1970's fashions. Yes, they got a lot of headlines and photo-ops, but the reaction of many (including me) was "What the heck are Apple's designers smoking?"

I'm not predicting that Ive will lay an egg with the low-cost iPods (although it's certainly possible!). I'm just trying to keep my expectations realistic by recalling a bit of recent history.

ZildjianKX
Dec 29, 2003, 03:49 AM
Okay, you guys should know this by now.

Take price you expect Apple to release a new product as, and times it by 1.5.

I expect the mini ipods to start at $100, means they will start at $150.

splashman
Dec 29, 2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by caveman_uk
Am I the only one who thinks $100 ipods are really unlikely? You only have to look at the price of RAM to know that 2GB costs more than $100. As another reader pointed out those IBM minidrives aren't exactly cheap either...

Maybe Apple has found a way of giving reasonably large storage and low price but given their love of margins I doubt it. Something has to give - either it ain't $100 or it ain't multi-GB

I agree both that something has to give and that it's probably the price. Knowing that one can't have it all, Apple has zero desire to be price-competitive; they'd much rather make the coolest toys.

Also, if they do manage even a minor leap over the competition, either in features or "coolness", then Apple will (once again) have zero incentive to keep prices down. If their entire production capacity of $300-$500 iPods can be snapped up, the public will have stampedes to get a $150 miniPod. (Hey, how's that for a name? miniPod!)

caveman_uk
Dec 29, 2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by splashman
(Hey, how's that for a name? miniPod!)
So long as it isn't either iPod-lite or iPod extreme...

backspinner
Dec 29, 2003, 04:19 AM
Maybe, just maybe, they will change their price structure this time (for the music stuff only). Maybe they will sell these miniPods on a loss or very little profit. Just to get a big momentum on the player market, AAC downloads and the music store. Others do this and that works (Dells are initially cheap you now), as long as you can produce in large quantity. With the cheap small devices as bait, the expensive large devices will still sell and maybe even attract more buyers...

_aa_
Dec 29, 2003, 04:20 AM
—pricing—

does anyone know how much the 5gb harddrives were before Apple introduced the original iPod?

have anybody read into (well, except Enderle) what memory-prices will evolve like in 2004?

in my opinion, Apple is preparing the evolution of storage-capacity—who will need a portable player with 120gb of music?

it will be more likely that capacities in the realms of current iPods is about perfect for most peoples music-librarys; and compression and codecs will likely enhance further along.

this is probably why Apple will use the current iPods hardrive, when capacity gets even bigger, for a new product making use of the enhanced capacaties; weather it be for photos + home on iPod, or include films/video/tv(dvr). even a tablet-format version could be the current iPods harddrive destination as i'm sure that they'd want a big screen (think 17inch pb and 20inch iMac).

the new miPod will surely evolve into the matrix where iPods are today (10-50gb).

this is how Apple could frog leap competition that has yet to recover from original iPod's introduction......

this will leave Apple with a sound matrix; having the best&smallest mp3&4player around at competitive pricing, +introducing a revolutionary product for photo/video/rest of digital hub.....

Waluigi
Dec 29, 2003, 04:21 AM
How is apple going to make the iPod fully functional at such a small size? I honestly am very interested to see how they are going to cram a screen, and all the buttons for navigating through the iPod's menu's in something smaller then the current iPods, which are already a little small for my hands.

On the bright side, this will sell unbelievably well in Japan, because they love the smallest possible electronics.

--Waluigi

Beowulf
Dec 29, 2003, 04:32 AM
I'm sure it won't happen, but this is something to consider. I've read somewhere that when the iPods were first on the drawing board, there were three different designs altogether; two of which we are aware of (and the third design is yet to be discovered). One of the designs that we do know about is the unreleased version, the iPod w/removable hard drive. Perhaps this design function will be released at MWSF. Instead of removable hard drives, they will ship with 128mb flash cards with the ability to upgrade to 2GB.

Just my 2¢.

-rtc

splashman
Dec 29, 2003, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by backspinner
Maybe, just maybe, they will change their price structure this time (for the music stuff only). Maybe they will sell these miniPods on a loss or very little profit. Just to get a big momentum on the player market, AAC downloads and the music store. Others do this and that works (Dells are initially cheap you now), as long as you can produce in large quantity. With the cheap small devices as bait, the expensive large devices will still sell and maybe even attract more buyers...

Hmmm. Anything's possible, but neither Jobs nor Apple has much fondness for the low end of the market. Also, I really don't think Apple would deliberately turn their bread-and-butter product into a loss leader.

But hey, we're all guessing, right?

_aa_
Dec 29, 2003, 04:46 AM
smaller iPod
=
touch screen ?

splashman
Dec 29, 2003, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Waluigi
How is apple going to make the iPod fully functional at such a small size? I honestly am very interested to see how they are going to cram a screen, and all the buttons for navigating through the iPod's menu's in something smaller then the current iPods, which are already a little small for my hands.

On the bright side, this will sell unbelievably well in Japan, because they love the smallest possible electronics.

--Waluigi

Because of the usability issue, I vote for keeping the current form factor, unless Apple has come up with a brand-new interface designed specifically for a smaller unit. As long as you can easily fit the thing in a pocket, a big investment to make it smaller wouldn't help the consumer much. I'd rather the battery life be improved.

arn
Dec 29, 2003, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by _aa_
[B]—pricing—

does anyone know how much the 5gb harddrives were before Apple introduced the original iPod?

The original 5GB Toshiba HD retailed for the same price as iPod when the iPod was introduced ($399)

arn

newnomad
Dec 29, 2003, 05:06 AM
IF Apple is going for a minipod right now, I believe it will be;
1,5 smaller then current ipod, making it more stretched, like a RC, and with a horizontal scrollpadd, no circular.In all with the same ipod look and feel.
Use a new kind of solid state non-volatile memory, cheaper then flash. And maybe even use E-ink display technology (http://www.eink.com) for the smaller display.
I dont see the use of replaceable flashmemory and batteries as an apple solution (too complex)

lets wait and see.....

PS;no colors

newnomad
Dec 29, 2003, 05:09 AM
then again, why change a UI winner?...

just the same ipods but thinner, and with these new technologies.

swmooretiger
Dec 29, 2003, 05:14 AM
could the mini be in reference to a change in thickness more than a change in the other dimensions of the ipod? that would make it weigh less and fit into pockets better, and with only a small change in the length and width the controls could stay the same

Mattski
Dec 29, 2003, 05:15 AM
Music (for Apple) is an entire system.

iTunes & iTMS for Win and OS X coupled with an iPod are the perfect music system.

In any case, buying in at AUS $529 for the basic version does not make any sense.

Either Apple needs to release a low-cost player or allow iTunes to work with non iPod devices in order to create a system that works for the broad population.

If Apple were not targeting the broad population, then we would not see iTunes for Windows.

Whatever technology the new iPod uses, there has to be one, iTMS has a limited long term future without it.

Pyrix
Dec 29, 2003, 05:19 AM
Who's to say that these new 'MiniPods' will be bottom of the range?

If they can get the capacitys large enough [Minimum 10 GB] then they could become middle of the range, and the current iPods would either become 'bottom' of the range, with another product completing Apple's 3 way matrix. Kind of like the eMac, iMac and Powermac.

ePod, iPod and PowerPod anyone?

After all, Apple's theory has often been less is more, and some people might pay for something just because it's smaller IMO, especially if it's got other features such as crossfade or eq or more games.

That's just my theory any way - it's one that I've seen on another site as well and I think it's more likely than the one you're talking about here.

Personally, I'd prefer the MiniPods to be bottom of the range, but with the price problem I can't see it happening.

Come on Apple, prove me wrong!

rdowns
Dec 29, 2003, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by caveman_uk
Am I the only one who thinks $100 ipods are really unlikely? You only have to look at the price of RAM to know that 2GB costs more than $100. As another reader pointed out those IBM minidrives aren't exactly cheap either...

Maybe Apple has found a way of giving reasonably large storage and low price but given their love of margins I doubt it. Something has to give - either it ain't $100 or it ain't multi-GB

I don't think $100 is going to happen. It's too cheap and no profit margins in it. Remember, iPods make the money, iTMS is the loss leader.

I expect a $199 price point, maybe $179. Breaks the $200 barrier and leaves a bit of room for Apple to make a few bucks.

backspinner
Dec 29, 2003, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by rdowns
Remember, iPods make the money, iTMS is the loss leader. What if that is not true? If that is only when operated with few quantities? Maybe they can get a small profit of a $150 player and a lot of these people spending on the music store?

happyadam
Dec 29, 2003, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by caveman_uk
Am I the only one who thinks $100 ipods are really unlikely? You only have to look at the price of RAM to know that 2GB costs more than $100. As another reader pointed out those IBM minidrives aren't exactly cheap either...

Assuming of course that Apple are supplying the memory. It may not be likely, but what if Apple were to supply just a cheap 128 or 256MB card, but allow you, the customer, to upgrade to any CFII memory you want.

So 100-150$ buys you a (limited) iPod, but you're still likely to splash out some more cash for more memory (as is the case for digital cameras)

Now that may not be the most cost effective way for the customer, but you at least have a choice between a non-upgradeable HD version, or an upgradeable flash memory version. Some people may even be quite happy with carrying around 3 or 4 512MB cards (each with a different playlist).

It seems likely that a lot of potential iPod owners already have a digital camera and have already bought numerous memory cards.

Maybe they could even provide their own branded flash cards (of course they maybe more expensive than other 3rd party cards but might look cooler!)

CrackedButter
Dec 29, 2003, 06:33 AM
Am i alone in thinking that Flower Power and Dalmation coloured iMacs were really cool and nice looking?

Having a Dalmation iPod would be sweet! But I would want a Blue one otherwise.

hokka
Dec 29, 2003, 06:59 AM
It's getting more and more confused (about the actual details that is)

Weren't there some ealier rumors indicating the new 'Pods would be ALL plastic as oppose to S/S backed to reduce cost? Then if it's HD based how would the heat be transferred?

And doesn't Lithium-ion based batteries hate heat?

BUT then again...

I've heard horribe stories about Flash based storage solutions, a distributors (not reseller) friend of mine here in Oz stopped selling the 1GB version as it's basically 2 x 512MB soldered together (on top of each other - since there are no commercially/readily available 1GB or more at this time), and so much "leakage" occurs between the two cards have resulted so much data-loss almost all were returned... So I wouldn't trust anything more than 512MB at the moment (until there are a single 1GB+ version available at a reasonable price which is still a few years down the track, or until digital cameras go beyond 20Million pixels or something)

I do like the idea of removable HD/Flash idea, if it turn out to be true I'd say 95% chance it'll be either non-removable (like current HD version) or Apple branded (with a proprietry HD/Card), because Apple likes to control the whole widget and give that flowless experience - I'm sure Apple wouldn't want you buy some crap non-brand thrid party card for the miniPod and when something crap-out you'll blame Apple for it (just look at how a simple battery issue got blown out of proportion).

Anyway, don't know what else to think, but it's confusing the crap out of me :confused:

blueBomber
Dec 29, 2003, 07:00 AM
as long as they make a color that compliments my 12" powerbook (the current white is nice, or a sleek light grey, aluminum is to much to wish for)

Sir_Giggles
Dec 29, 2003, 07:00 AM
It seems likely that a lot of potential iPod owners already have a digital camera and have already bought numerous memory cards.

I think you nailed it. Apple will most likely be able to reach a $99 or $149 price point by providing the player. The customer then can use their own memory cards, or buy them as a separate purchase. So if a customer wanted a 1GB iPod-Mini, they could buy the $99 iPod, and use their own 1GB CF2 card. This is the only way I could see Apple price their iPods without adding memory, since Flash and HDs are the priciest components.

As far as the new name for the mini iPods... I think Apple will keep the iPod name as it is a well known brand name, but add the "mini" extension on the end of it, such as iPod-Mini, or iPod/m. I like the last one, sounds smooth rolling off the tongue.

pkradd
Dec 29, 2003, 07:13 AM
The reason why things are getting confusing is that reports are RUMORS. Apple has kept the lid on this very well. There's no doubt that Apple will be introducing a new MP3 player of some type. One RUMOR site reports that there will be two different designs - a low price and mid price version. Again, until Apple unveils the product everything is conjecture. And, by the way, HD drives have come down enormously in price since they were introduced 2 years ago. Apple doesn't pay list price for them. Toshiba has recently increased their manufacturing ability. Prices may be half of what they were two years ago. The original 5 Gig iPod was $500. Now you can buy a 10 Gig for $300. Apple will enter thispart of the market because it appeals to kids and teens (and their parents who don't want to spend $299 for an iPod). Many people don't need to carry around their complete CD collection. 200 to 500 songs is enough for them. 9 days and counting

hokka
Dec 29, 2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Sir_Giggles
I think you nailed it. Apple will most likely be able to reach a $99 or $149 price point by providing the player. The customer then can use their own memory cards, or buy them as a separate purchase. So if a customer wanted a 1GB iPod-Mini, they could buy the $99 iPod, and use their own 1GB CF2 card. This is the only way I could see Apple price their iPods without adding memory, since Flash and HDs are the priciest components.

As far as the new name for the mini iPods... I think Apple will keep the iPod name as it is a well known brand name, but add the "mini" extension on the end of it, such as iPod-Mini, or iPod/m. I like the last one, sounds smooth rolling off the tongue.

It all start sounding TOO MUCH like a Sony's Mini Disk Player or their Memory Stick Network Walkmans (which is old tech) - I'm having doubts NOW as it offers no benifit (or can lure) people that have MD players at the moment (minus the recording) - though the top-of-the-line MD Recorder is the same price as a 40GB iPod.

Yeah btw, removable media suck! that's why I bought an iPod!

HasanDaddy
Dec 29, 2003, 07:25 AM
iMini?

lind0834
Dec 29, 2003, 07:37 AM
Name of the MinIpod: ePod.

eMac was supposed to be just for education, but since now everybody can buy one.. the iPod for Everbody.. ePod.

Also, what I'd like to see, is the re-introduction of flavors. I thought they were all great (with some obvious exceptions). How about you buy a redesigned flavored eMac, and you can get a matching flavored ePod for $99.

:D

Ted13
Dec 29, 2003, 07:50 AM
in my opinion, Apple is preparing the evolution of storage-capacity—who will need a portable player with 120gb of music?

I do! My 20GB iPod has been full for a long time, and only has a small fraction of my CD collection on it. Add to that the possibility of keeping your home dir on it, etc. and the larger, the better.

I haven't bothered upgrading to a 40GB, cause it won't solve my space problems (and will shorten my battery life...) I'd love a 80 to 120GB iPod...

Ted

pmh
Dec 29, 2003, 07:53 AM
I was thinking more like this:

1GB $99
2GB $149
4GB $199

10GB $299
20GB $399
40GB $499

sushi
Dec 29, 2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by splashman
Because of the usability issue, I vote for keeping the current form factor, unless Apple has come up with a brand-new interface designed specifically for a smaller unit. As long as you can easily fit the thing in a pocket, a big investment to make it smaller wouldn't help the consumer much. I'd rather the battery life be improved.
For the Japanese market, the current form factor (H and W) would be okay as long as it is much thinner. Something like 40-50% thinner would be great!

As I mentioned earlier, initially (the first two weeks) the Apple Store in the Ginza was selling very few iPods.

I haven't been back to check since then. But initially, sales were very slow -- much less than Apple expected.

Sushi

pkradd
Dec 29, 2003, 08:00 AM
Capacity is relative. Hard core music people want more. Those who want to jog or just need 10 CDs on their machine don't need more. Apple is smart. They probably had focus groups asking what price/capacity ratio that the ordinary person wants. If we look at these things from a strictly geek perspective then there will never be enough capacity. Compromise needs to be taken into consideration. There are demographics that Apple needs and will appeal to.

ThomasJefferson
Dec 29, 2003, 08:03 AM
I imagine Apple will use the same colors for the mini-ipod that they have been using in their product ads.

I don't like the ads, nor do I like the colors, but they are identifiable with the product right now...

Regardless, the kids will inhale these things.

sushi
Dec 29, 2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by hokka
BUT then again...

I've heard horribe stories about Flash based storage solutions, a distributors (not reseller) friend of mine here in Oz stopped selling the 1GB version as it's basically 2 x 512MB soldered together (on top of each other - since there are no commercially/readily available 1GB or more at this time), and so much "leakage" occurs between the two cards have resulted so much data-loss almost all were returned... So I wouldn't trust anything more than 512MB at the moment (until there are a single 1GB+ version available at a reasonable price which is still a few years down the track, or until digital cameras go beyond 20Million pixels or something)
Uh, don't tell these guys!

http://www.pretec.com/

They have 1GB and up CF cards.

Sushi

artmc
Dec 29, 2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by CrackedButter
Am i alone in thinking that Flower Power and Dalmation coloured iMacs were really cool and nice looking?

Having a Dalmation iPod would be sweet! But I would want a Blue one otherwise.

Not quite what your looking for, but....

http://www.colorwarepc.com/

Kinda interesting service. I'd *NEVER* do this to my iPod.
But there are people out there who must want this. It does make
your iPod a bit more "personal", i guess......


* art *

happyadam
Dec 29, 2003, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by hokka
It all start sounding TOO MUCH like a Sony's Mini Disk Player or their Memory Stick Network Walkmans (which is old tech) - I'm having doubts NOW as it offers no benifit (or can lure) people that have MD players at the moment (minus the recording) - though the top-of-the-line MD Recorder is the same price as a 40GB iPod.

The benefit is that it would work seamlessly with iTunes, and allow you to listen to your purchased iTMS music on a portable player.


Yeah btw, removable media suck! that's why I bought an iPod!

That's fine - a lot of people will agree with you and therefore buy the HD version.

Personally, I think Apple would be smart to offer the choice between the current iPod range, and a cheaper removable flash iPod range (iPod FX - Flash eXpandable?).

There are other reasons beyond capacity that give iPod the edge - if they can retain these in a cheaper version (ease of use, stylish design, extra features) then I can see this as being a huge hit for Apple.

cr2sh
Dec 29, 2003, 08:30 AM
Could it be a stunt just like last year.. where everyone who REALLY wanted a new powerbook ran out and bought one before Christmas. They were so happy with their nice, new, 15" Ti.. and then right after Christmas, WHAM! Alumibook.

Everyone who really wanted an iPod for Christmas got one already.. an after Christmas release is just an attempt to pick up the stragglers...

How about... No?

If Apple releases a minipod, cheaper and smaller.. and does so Jan. 5... it will have been one of the worst timed releases.. ever.

humangod
Dec 29, 2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by caveman_uk
Am I the only one who thinks $100 ipods are really unlikely? You only have to look at the price of RAM to know that 2GB costs more than $100. As another reader pointed out those IBM minidrives aren't exactly cheap either...

Maybe Apple has found a way of giving reasonably large storage and low price but given their love of margins I doubt it. Something has to give - either it ain't $100 or it ain't multi-GB

but you forget, >$100 for 2GB is when YOU as an individual buys the RAM from a dealer. don't you think if apple bought ram in quantity, and directly from the source, they could buy it cheap?

Sonofhaig
Dec 29, 2003, 08:33 AM
Could it be that Apple has given us a hint of the new mini ipod colors? I wonder if the colors will match the ad campaign for itunes?

Macmaniac
Dec 29, 2003, 08:44 AM
It seems the more speculation we have the more wild the ideas go. One reader mentioned that the original iPod HD cost the same as the original iPod. Now we know from what we have heard that Apple made a big profit margin off the original iPod. It probably cost Apple $220 to make the original iPod because the bought the 5GB HDs in bulk which brings the price down a lot. This principal could be applied to the new iPods with micro drives, if Apple buys in bulk they can still make a profit, don't rule out a $99 iPod it seems very possible. Hey and you can buy a DVD player for $39 so look how far we have come.

gwuMACaddict
Dec 29, 2003, 08:53 AM
i used to think a minipod was a dumb idea... but i guess i could use it for running... arn seems to have a little insider info on this one... ;) any word on the interface? same scroll wheel type deal?

just as long as it doesn't look like the dell dj...:rolleyes:

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 08:55 AM
Calm down people; we still have long ways to go before MWSF. The only thing that's 'confirmed' is that Apple WILL be releasing new iPods. The details seem sketchy.

Yes they'll be smaller, but how much smaller? Smaller form factor could simply mean slightly thinner as some have pointed out. Personally I think the dimensions of the existing iPods can shrink a bit without making the screen and buttons smaller. Mini iPods will probably be trageted to kids so smaller size could actually work better with the smaller hands.

Yes they'll be smaller in capacity, but how much smaller? The smaller form factor seems to rule out using the current 1.8" drives. So Apple will go with either a) 1" HDD drives that are emerging or b) flash media of some sort. As was the case with the 1.8" drives, Apple may have struck a deal with someone like Toshiba for a mass run of 1" drives. If indeed, as Appleinsider has reported, the miniPods sport 2GB and 4GB drives, then most likely they'll use the new 1" drives, NOT flash media.

Yes they'll be cheaper, but how much cheaper? As many have noted, price will largely be determined by what the storage media will be. My guesses depending on the media:

-128MB flash with slot for another stick: $99
-256MB flash: $99 - $129
-512MB flash: ~$150
-1.0GB flash: $200-250
-1GB HDD: $150-200 (The price of the 1" HDD seems to be the major wildcard here.)
-2GB HDD: $150-200 (I'm assuming the HDD prices aren't that different between 2GB and 4GB versions.)
-4GB HDD: $200-250
-5GB HDD: $200-250

kwajo.com
Dec 29, 2003, 09:09 AM
the low price pretty much possible using ram not flash memory. the iPod keeps power to the memory right now, and if some of the sleep technology from OS X were put in to use extremely low power to maintain memory, then RAM becomes a possibility. the price difference between flash and ram is huge and this could very well be the solution.

or i am insane and less informed than i thought. oh well. still hoping for stripes!

edgar_is_good
Dec 29, 2003, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by cr2sh
Could it be a stunt just like last year.. where everyone who REALLY wanted a new powerbook ran out and bought one before Christmas. They were so happy with their nice, new, 15" Ti.. and then right after Christmas, WHAM! Alumibook.

Everyone who really wanted an iPod for Christmas got one already.. an after Christmas release is just an attempt to pick up the stragglers...

How about... No?

If Apple releases a minipod, cheaper and smaller.. and does so Jan. 5... it will have been one of the worst timed releases.. ever.

Let's think about many, many previous apple releases. The MO is this: announce mega-cool product, not immediately available. When it is available, supply incapable of meeting demand because, e.g., the components aren't available in sufficient quantity yet that they've had a large enough production run (think: LCD's for iMac, G5's for G5's, etc., etc.). People get pissed off, retailers get pissed off, people like us read about how everyone's pissed off. If it were before xmas, you can guess these problems would be x10. I think even with a January announce (available in quantity who knows when) we will still see them as failing to meet demand.

Stewdy
Dec 29, 2003, 09:20 AM
shorten mini ipod down to "mipod" (pronounced "my pod"). yeah, probably not but i kinda like it. :) 4GB for around $150-$175 with my education discount... if they come out i'll definitely buy regardless of what it's called.

cr2sh
Dec 29, 2003, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by edgar_is_good
we will still see them as failing to meet demand.

I think that was the way of the old apple... look at the newest powerbooks. No demand/supply issues there.

edgar_is_good
Dec 29, 2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by cr2sh
I think that was the way of the old apple... look at the newest powerbooks. No demand/supply issues there.

Of course those things came like 6 mos later than they should have, so I don't know if that's good "new apple".

zapp
Dec 29, 2003, 09:26 AM
RAM is much cheaper than flash, what if apple used ram instead of CF or HD. The battery is built in, so you don't have to worry about losing the storage switching batteries. I am sure with buying in bulk apple could put together 2-4 storage gb easy. Power consumption would be very low even when playing music( no hard drive to spin). It would ruin it for a backup device, but it is workable as a audio player. Also, no moving parts, fast data access, and fast loads. They can have the OS in ROM then all the music in ram. Kinda like the palm pilot. And it would fit into the smaller form factor rumor, and keep the price low.

caveman_uk
Dec 29, 2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by humangod
but you forget, >$100 for 2GB is when YOU as an individual buys the RAM from a dealer. don't you think if apple bought ram in quantity, and directly from the source, they could buy it cheap?
2GB costs about $300 retail. Sooooo Apple can source 2GB of memory, the rest of the internals of the machine, pay a third party to build the thing and make at least some profit on a price point of $100. Yeah right:rolleyes:

Apple next trick will be the $50 G5 cube... ;)

They'd have to get memory at around a tenth of the retail price. I very much doubt that. I think the removable memory option is the most likely. Then you could do it for a $100 easy...

wizard
Dec 29, 2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by happyadam
Assuming of course that Apple are supplying the memory. It may not be likely, but what if Apple were to supply just a cheap 128 or 256MB card, but allow you, the customer, to upgrade to any CFII memory you want.

Just what I'm thinking. Compact flash is the way to go with this sort of design, but I would not be surprised to find Apple choosing some odd memory card design that has little market share.



So 100-150$ buys you a (limited) iPod, but you're still likely to splash out some more cash for more memory (as is the case for digital cameras)

Yep the digital camera is the role model for a solid state iPod.


Now that may not be the most cost effective way for the customer, but you at least have a choice between a non-upgradeable HD version, or an upgradeable flash memory version. Some people may even be quite happy with carrying around 3 or 4 512MB cards (each with a different playlist).

I have to disagree a bit about cost effectiveness, many of us already have a whole bunch of Compact flash cards hanging around. Bring a little more competition to the compact flash marke tand we might be able to drive prices down quite a bit. The underlying technology should not be that expensive anyways, the actual flash chips can be had relatively cheaply.


It seems likely that a lot of potential iPod owners already have a digital camera and have already bought numerous memory cards.

Yep!!

Maybe they could even provide their own branded flash cards (of course they maybe more expensive than other 3rd party cards but might look cooler!)

Well I doubt that sometihng looking cooler will be at that much of an advantage. But what i do see is the potential for Apple to provide a little more competition to the Compact Flash Market. Compact Flash already leads the market in capacity and cost, anything that can drive the cost of the product closer to the cost of the underlying technology would be a good thing.

-hh
Dec 29, 2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by humangod
...you think if apple bought ram in quantity, and directly from the source, they could buy it cheap?

Yes, but there is a difference between Apple being able to buy RAM cheap in volume, and then choosing to pass along that savings to their customers.

I've been an Apple customer for a mere 20 years, but I cannot ever recall an Apple product where their RAM prices were what I'd consider a "Good Value"

For whatever their reason, Apple is not (and IMO has never been) market-competitive with their Retail prices for RAM. For example, Apple's current RAM prices for the 1.8 G5 vary from 148% to 162% of current "Reputable Retail" (eg, Crucial Tech.) prices.

For Mac fans, this is an extremely old rant. The only thing that I can figure is that it has been a big, fat profit center that exploits institutional customers who are willing to pay 'anything' to simplify their Purchase Orders down to a single contract. Unfortunately, this only perpetuates the "Apple=Expensive" paradigm and provides the financial incentives for schools to move from Mac --> PC, so Apple is effectively undermining themselves with their own price structure.


-hh

-hh
Dec 29, 2003, 09:36 AM
HappyAdam wrote:

Maybe they could even provide their own branded flash cards (of course they maybe more expensive than other 3rd party cards but might look cooler!)


Well, if Apple does go with a Flash Card, but uses a Proprietary form factor, I'm not buying one.

Even if their Flash Card is dirt cheap. Sorry.


-hh

latergator116
Dec 29, 2003, 09:56 AM
Sorry, gold is a really tacky color :rolleyes:

Foocha
Dec 29, 2003, 10:02 AM
From a trademark perspective, Apple would have to think long and hard before creating an extension of the iPod trademark. The more that they play around with the name the more they undermine their claim over it - quite an issue when it's rapidly become a generic product category descriptor. For this reason, mPod, ePod, miniiPod etc are all, in my opinion, unlikely.

Smaller and cheaper is a smart post-Christmas move, since demand will be slackening off in the post-gift-purchasing season. Pre-Christmas, a smaller, cheaper iPod would undermine higher-margin sales. Post-Christmas, a smaller, cheaper iPod could boost slower sales.

Apple also needs to create a price-breakthrough in order to remain competative and maintain their market leadership - I anticipate that the new low-end iPods will be smaller in disk-space, not physical dimensions, and very price competative. They will feature a hard-drive and Firewire/USB2 since anything else would undermine iPod's simplicity.

I think the big annoucement will be the licensing of Apple's DRM Fairplay technology to third parties such as Napster, enabling 3rd party music download sites to provide iPod support. This way, Apple will leverage their market domiance to finally give Microsoft a kick in the teeth - if they licence Fairplay under the right terms, it could have enough industry support to give WMP a run for its money. Since iTMS is effectively a loss-leader, Apple need not be too concerned about allowing third parties to compete directly with iTMS, and since iTMS is currently the best-of-breed, it can doubtless handle the competition.

vitrector
Dec 29, 2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by pkradd
... Prices may be half of what they were two years ago. The original 5 Gig iPod was $500...

Let's try and keep the facts straight: the original iPod was $399.00.
----
Perhaps Apple is leaning about seeing things thru from a business perspective. There is no doubt that Apple is THE innovator in the industry, yet they have yet to truly profit from their inventions like others have.
See this article for an interesting read on "the limits of innovation." http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/78/jobs.html

So maybe Apple _will_ sell mini iPods at near break-even or below cost to build market share. I think this would be the only way for them to keep a grip on this market. Ultimately, price, esp. when coupled with good quality, rules the market place and cool only gives a short sprint (nothing stays cool forever); I think Dell has proven this nicely.

ddbean
Dec 29, 2003, 10:04 AM
...I like mPod for a name... short, sweet.

alandail
Dec 29, 2003, 10:06 AM
smaller doesn't have to change the user interface at all - smaller could simply mean thinner and lighter.

As for price, I'd expect something like

2G - $149
4G - $199

If they can pull of $99, they better be ready to produce millions of these. Apple has to realize that if they can hit the GameBoy Advance SP price range that they can sell these things like crazy without putting a significant dent in the existing iPod market. 2 or 4 gigs isn't enough for my library, but is enough for my kids. Also, it'll bring a ton more buyers to the iTunes Music Store. Despite what Apple says, I believe they expect the iTunes Music Store to become a significant profit generator over time.

singletrack
Dec 29, 2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Mattski
Either Apple needs to release a low-cost player or allow iTunes to work with non iPod devices in order to create a system that works for the broad population.


It worked ok with the Creative Muvo NX I plugged in a while back. There's support for quite a few non-iPod devices already.

~Shard~
Dec 29, 2003, 10:17 AM
I have mixed feelings regarding the color aspect of these new iPods. In general, I like the idea of adding color to them, if done properly (no flower power iPods please!), but I'm not sure what the best way to go about it is. If Apple makes the iPods have a solid color, no faceplates, etc., then they might run into the old iMac problem, whereby certain colors just didn't sell, and there was high demand for certain colors, leaving people disappointed when stores ran out of certain colors.

But on the other hand, Apple could sell faceplates, so that buyers could essentially have any color they want. The problem wiht this though, is Apple would suffer the same fate as Nokia. Nokia created the whole faceplate phenomenon for their phones, and then subsequently lost control of their product as third parties came in and saturated the market with all sorts of cheezy faceplates. Such actions would take control of the iPod's appearance away from Apple and could be very detrimental.

So, I guess the only solution I see is color-changing plastic! Program the iPod's casing to change color as the user wants, and then everything will be good. And then how many people would want one of those? :cool:

backspinner
Dec 29, 2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by alandail
2 or 4 gigs isn't enough for my library, but is enough for my kids and everybody knows, that if one kid has a new toy the other ones also want a new toy! and not all the people have only one kid at home...

fucanay
Dec 29, 2003, 10:21 AM
Do you guys really think Apple would take a step backward and use the Flash cards? It is years old technology and I seriously doubt they would use it.

And I for sure won't touch one that didn't have built in 2-4 GB capacity. And preferably it would be HD. Otherwise, I'll just get a a regular one. I guess I wouldn't be the market they are looking for.

I want the same technology they are using now, but cheaper and no need for such high capacity.

fucanay

BTW: Long time lurker - first time poster.

Steven1621
Dec 29, 2003, 10:21 AM
what is apple thinking? the need to upgrade the xserve line asap. how can they sleep at night knowing that they are selling severs with antiquated chips in them?

singletrack
Dec 29, 2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by cr2sh
I think that was the way of the old apple... look at the newest powerbooks. No demand/supply issues there.

I presume you're speaking for the US.

15" were almost impossible to get hold of for around 2 months after relase and I've still not seen one in a UK shop. 12" are only just at levels you'd expect and getting anything other than the base model is difficult.

SiliconAddict
Dec 29, 2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by hokka
I've heard horribe stories about Flash based storage solutions, a distributors (not reseller) friend of mine here in Oz stopped selling the 1GB version as it's basically 2 x 512MB soldered together (on top of each other - since there are no commercially/readily available 1GB or more at this time), and so much "leakage" occurs between the two cards have resulted so much data-loss almost all were returned... So I wouldn't trust anything more than 512MB at the moment (until there are a single 1GB+ version available at a reasonable price which is still a few years down the track, or until digital cameras go beyond 20Million pixels or something)

I have a 1GB CF card for my HP Jornada Pocket PC. (Real CF not the MicroDrive of which I have the first gen 340MB drive.) I store a few movies and a couple dozen MP3's on it. I got it earlier this year have had zero problems with it in any way. I think horror stories are few and far between its just the ones that go horribly, horribly wrong are the ones that get the attention. CF is a godsend. Its way more ruggedized then any hard drive and I can throw it in my shirt pocket as is without any fears of damaging it. When not used as a storage medium for my Pocket PC I use it to transport files and documents to and from work. My entire My Documents directory is stored on this card taking it home to work and back again is way easier then lugging a laptop with me.
At this point, IMHO, the tech is there. Its the price point that is the killer. Looking online the cheapest you can find is $200. The price point is still to high and the amount of storage space is still to low.

latergator116
Dec 29, 2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Steven1621
what is apple thinking? the need to upgrade the xserve line asap. how can they sleep at night knowing that they are selling severs with antiquated chips in them?

Im guessing they are also going to update the server line at MW

~Shard~
Dec 29, 2003, 10:28 AM
I think this is going to be excellent for Apple. These smaller capacity iPods will apeal to a whole new market segment - those not having/wanting a lot of music, and who are in the market for a cheaper MP3 player. Add in some colors and these little guys will be quite the hot item!

The timing couldn't be better either. Apple sells out of the normal iPods for Christmas, and now in the New Year, BAM, new iPods are released, so they can sell even more! It would have been folly to release these before Christmas, as the current iPods sold well enough on their own!

This makes me even more excited about MWSF! :cool:

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by alandail
Despite what Apple says, I believe they expect the iTunes Music Store to become a significant profit generator over time. Nope, the economics simply isn't there. It's open knowledge at this point but record companies take 2/3 off the $.99 right off the bat. That leaves Apple with $.33 to pay for the bandwidth, servers, processing of AAC files and artwork, development and maintenance of the site, and marketing. Apple hopes to move 100 mil songs this year. At $.05 a song, that nets them 5 mil in profits. Big whoop di doo.

Just a guess but the iPods prolly have about 35-40% margins. At 35%, one million ipods will net $140 mil for Apple. Cha Ching. Apple needs to move 2.8 billion songs to approach those profit levels.

Hawthorne
Dec 29, 2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by singletrack
It worked ok with the Creative Muvo NX I plugged in a while back. There's support for quite a few non-iPod devices already.

iTunes application support is there for darn near every mp3 player made. What's lacking is support for music downloaded from the iTunes Music Store. Currently, only the iPod supports the DRM that the iTMS uses.

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by zapp
RAM is much cheaper than flash, what if apple used ram instead of CF or HD. The battery is built in, so you don't have to worry about losing the storage switching batteries. I am sure with buying in bulk apple could put together 2-4 storage gb easy. Power consumption would be very low even when playing music( no hard drive to spin). It would ruin it for a backup device, but it is workable as a audio player. Also, no moving parts, fast data access, and fast loads. They can have the OS in ROM then all the music in ram. Kinda like the palm pilot. And it would fit into the smaller form factor rumor, and keep the price low. So how do you maintain the data when the iPod is turned off? Are you proposing that the iPod is kept at a permanent low-power state?? And you do that with a battery??? And when the battery is finally drained, what happens????

stingerman
Dec 29, 2003, 10:38 AM
For a dose of reality the 2GB and 4GB 1" drives are expensive. Toshiba makes them in limited quantities. The current drive is 1.8" and only in the next couple of months will production ramp up to 600,000 1.8" drives / month. So, don't expect a 2-4GB iPod any time soon. The las music show had Apple approaching 40% of the MP3 players shipped, the rest were mainly cheap flash players.

Well, there is not one flash player that I know of that plays Fairplay DRM tunes. That is a mighty big whole for the 60% of the other market. A 128-256MB Flash iPod player would allow Apple to seal up the MP3 player market, wthout hurting HD iPod sales. They are two completely different markets and Apple can keep them separate on size, functions and price. (Whereas 2-4GB gets awfully close to being enough to hurt the high-end iPod line.)

So, for the reasons listed above, Apple will release a Flash based iPod with up to 256MB that can play iTunes tracks. Apple's distribution channel for iPods is huge and they will sell into this huge channel. Now instead of paying $129 for a Creative Muvo, I would buy a flash iPod. My iTunes tracks will play on my flash player as well as my iPod. In the future, people who buy the flash will want to buy an iPod with their music collection growing.

Retail stores will only carry so many lines on their shelves, and Apple can lock up the market as well.

mr.iso
Dec 29, 2003, 10:39 AM
http://bizns.nikkeibp.co.jp/cgi-bin/asia/frame-asia.pl?NSH_KIJIID=237219&NSH_CHTML=asiabiztech.html

boom

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by latergator116
Sorry, gold is a really tacky color :rolleyes: Yeah but all the pimps will be lining up to get one.

Can you just imagine the new ad campaign...

jero
Dec 29, 2003, 10:48 AM
gold colored? a classic white ipod, or a black one is nice. but a gold colored one? maybe master p will pick one up to match his gold fronts(teeth).

mr.iso
Dec 29, 2003, 10:57 AM
"A reduction in components cuts costs. The 1.5-inch GB drive, which has been in volume manufacturing since mid-April, sells for $65 in quantities of 10,000. The company is aiming for $50, Magenis said. By contrast, existing standard 1-inch Microdrives from IBM sell for $219 at retail or more, while 1GB flash cards go for around $200."

that's a typo in the article though, it's a 1" 1.5 GB drive

source: http://news.com.com/2100-1041-1012235.html

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by stingerman
For a dose of reality the 2GB and 4GB 1" drives are expensive. Toshiba makes them in limited quantities. The current drive is 1.8" and only in the next couple of months will production ramp up to 600,000 1.8" drives / month. So, don't expect a 2-4GB iPod any time soon. The las music show had Apple approaching 40% of the MP3 players shipped, the rest were mainly cheap flash players.

Well, there is not one flash player that I know of that plays Fairplay DRM tunes. That is a mighty big whole for the 60% of the other market. A 128-256MB Flash iPod player would allow Apple to seal up the MP3 player market, wthout hurting HD iPod sales. They are two completely different markets and Apple can keep them separate on size, functions and price. (Whereas 2-4GB gets awfully close to being enough to hurt the high-end iPod line.)

So, for the reasons listed above, Apple will release a Flash based iPod with up to 256MB that can play iTunes tracks. Apple's distribution channel for iPods is huge and they will sell into this huge channel. Now instead of paying $129 for a Creative Muvo, I would buy a flash iPod. My iTunes tracks will play on my flash player as well as my iPod. In the future, people who buy the flash will want to buy an iPod with their music collection growing.

Retail stores will only carry so many lines on their shelves, and Apple can lock up the market as well. While I'm not too sure about your pricing of the 1" HDD drives (Apple could be striking an exclusive deal that no one is anticipating, like they did with the original 1.8" drives), I agree that there is definitely a market for an Apple-branded, flash-based MP3 player. If Apple indeed sold a $100 miniPod with a removable flash slot, they would OWN the digital music market. They just need to make sure it's as slick and user-friendly as the current iPod-iTunes experience. Make it all USB2.0 standard.

u2mr2os2
Dec 29, 2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by pmh
I was thinking more like this:

1GB $99
2GB $149
4GB $199

10GB $299
20GB $399
40GB $499

Look at CF prices. 1GB at Crucial is $260! OF course, Apple could buy flash cheaper than retail, but they still have to add the electronics and the case! Even if they decide to have a loss leader model, I think that'd have to be a huge loss to get to $99 with a flash player.

Looking at a hard drive possibility, I found a story of a startup with a 1.5GB 1" hard drive that is said could sell for as little as $70. If that were a retail price, then $99 for a whole player with a very small profit margin as a gateway device to the music store seems possible.

Using the current pricing structure without thought about part costs as a basis for pricing:

10GB $299 = $30.0/GB
20GB $399 = $20.0/GB
40GB $499 = $12.5/GB

Extrapolating this yields $40/GB for a 5GB player. So, say a 4GB player should be about $150-$160. A 2GB player would be about $100.

Looking at current prices another way gives a formula of halve the capacity and lower the price by $100. Thus, 5GB should be $199 and 2.5GB at $99.

There's a notion of a $99 MiniPod achieved by bring your own flash card. Let's see, I pay $99 for the MiniPod, then lay out $50 for 128MB to $260 for 1GB? Hell, for less than $260+$99, just get a 10GB unit.

The other idea of a BYOF model is that since I have a digital camera, I have all the CF cards lying around. Well, arent' I using them for my camera? Tying them up with music on them makes them useless for the camera, and tying them up with photos makes them useless for music. I just have two CF cards for my camera, and keep one empty, but not to use for music, but to have handy when the other fills up. And besides, not all camera are CF. For this theory to work with enough people, the MiniPod would have to be one of those 6-in-1 flash readers as well. Then, you could stuff in a 256MB CF, Memory Stick, SD, Smart Media and XD cards all at once to get 1.25GB! It'd only cost you how much?

ITR 81
Dec 29, 2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by mr.iso
http://bizns.nikkeibp.co.jp/cgi-bin/asia/frame-asia.pl?NSH_KIJIID=237219&NSH_CHTML=asiabiztech.html

boom

I bet Apple went the HD route then.

1.5GB for under $100 means if bought in volume pricing could be just under $50 a pop.

sushi
Dec 29, 2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by mr.iso
http://bizns.nikkeibp.co.jp/cgi-bin/asia/frame-asia.pl?NSH_KIJIID=237219&NSH_CHTML=asiabiztech.html

boom
This is way cool! :D :D :D :D :D

Sushi

gjrich
Dec 29, 2003, 11:05 AM
I know how they are going to make a small capacity iPod that cost less then the current models. Earlier this year I read an article about a company that designed a small hard drive about the size of a quarter that was relatively cheep, they did this by moving all the hard drive controllers off the drive it self. The HD is basically soldered to the main board and the HD controller’s job is done pretty much by a chip also soldered to the main board. What makes the IBM micro drive so expensive is IBM must fit a small HD and its controllers onto a CF card. Make things small you make it expensive. In terms of Flash based no way a 2gb flash based MP3 player would cost more than the current 10GB.

* I will try to find the article and post it here.

ITR 81
Dec 29, 2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by dongmin
Make it all USB2.0 standard.

I think you mean include a USB cable with the iPod for Wintel users.

Most don't have updated firewire cards or are using old drivers..so the firewire doesn't work.

mrsebastian
Dec 29, 2003, 11:06 AM
i find it interesting that so many posters, quote such high prices when talking about the ipod drives. consider that apple sold about a million ipods this year alone, one would think they should be able to get a pretty nice discount from any manufacturer.

alandail
Dec 29, 2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by dongmin
Nope, the economics simply isn't there. It's open knowledge at this point but record companies take 2/3 off the $.99 right off the bat. That leaves Apple with $.33 to pay for the bandwidth, servers, processing of AAC files and artwork, development and maintenance of the site, and marketing. Apple hopes to move 100 mil songs this year. At $.05 a song, that nets them 5 mil in profits. Big whoop di doo.

Just a guess but the iPods prolly have about 35-40% margins. At 35%, one million ipods will net $140 mil for Apple. Cha Ching. Apple needs to move 2.8 billion songs to approach those profit levels.

The 100 million song goal is the first year - don't think they don't expect to ramp this up to the billions of songs/year. The keys to this are expanding to worldwide sales and getting more iPods into people's hands. And promotions like the one Pepsi is doing will only help sell more iPods, especially if there is a $99 model. How many kids will realize that when they add all of their bottle tops up, they can can get free music and use their music money to help buy an iPod.

Also, some of the costs you cite are fixed cost items unrelated to volume of sales. Others should scale down somewhat with higher volume. Perhaps that .05 bumps up to .10 as volume bumps up from 20 million songs in 6 months to 20 million songs/week. At 1 billion songs/year, that's $100 million profit on $1 billion in music revenue.

One things for certain, as they sell more iPods, they'll sell more music.

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by mr.iso
"A reduction in components cuts costs. The 1.5GB drive, which has been in volume manufacturing since mid-April, sells for $65 in quantities of 10,000. The company is aiming for $50, Magenis said. By contrast, existing standard 1-inch Microdrives from IBM sell for $219 at retail or more, while 1GB flash cards go for around $200." While I hate the name 'Cornice', I think this technology is quite promising. If it's $65 a pop in quantities of 10K, maybe Apple can get a sweet deal for 500K. Maybe $40-45 a pop. Say another $55-60 for the rest of the gizmo, and then charge $129. People get a cheap player; Apple makes $30 per unit--not a bad scenario. Other mp3 manufacturers would have to load a boatload of features to compete with Apple on this one.

many possibilities...

alandail
Dec 29, 2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by mrsebastian
i find it interesting that so many posters, quote such high prices when talking about the ipod drives. consider that apple sold about a million ipods this year alone, one would think they should be able to get a pretty nice discount from any manufacturer.

Yep - it wouldn't be surprising to learn that Apple even helped fund development of something new in exchange for exclusive access at discounted prices. Who's going to say no to selling 10 million 2 and 4 gig drives to Apple.

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
I think you mean include a USB cable with the iPod for Wintel users.

Most don't have updated firewire cards or are using old drivers..so the firewire doesn't work.
Actually no, I meant USB 2. Most PCs nowadays (including Macs) come with USB 2. I think even for something like 512MB, USB 1.1 is too slow.

flirp chair
Dec 29, 2003, 11:19 AM
Apple cant drop below half a gig for storage, or they will be in MiniDisc territory, at least in terms of minutes of storage. Portable MD's have the advantage of technically unlilmited storage (depends how many discs you want to lug around, 1 disc will hold 5+ hours on modern players), plus the ability to record tracks, cut tracks, join tracks, and generally edit to your hearts content.

Until iPod's can record music, and do basic non-linear editing, I wouldn't even consider buying one for more than £50, regardless of storage. When that day comes though, I will stop buying food for a month and get an iPod.

But I still love my portable MD.

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by mrsebastian
i find it interesting that so many posters, quote such high prices when talking about the ipod drives. consider that apple sold about a million ipods this year alone, one would think they should be able to get a pretty nice discount from any manufacturer. Sure, but it's all just a shot in the dark, no? I don't think anyone here on this forum has a clue about exactly how much Toshiba has been charging Apple for the HDD. The only pseudo-solid piece of info. here is that Cornice is offering the 1.5GB drive at $50-65 per unit to manufacturers like Rio and RCA.

kidA
Dec 29, 2003, 11:37 AM
apple's not likely to sell a 1 GB device at $100. the flash memory alone would cost over $200. if it's HD based and these are indeed mini-iPods, reference it with other min-sized HD based players, like the Creative Muvo2 and the Rio Nitrus (both at 1.5 GB), which retail for between $230 and $300. first of all apple is not known for blowing the profit margins in an industry. they have never undersold competition before and there is no real reason for them to start now. that's dell's job. if the rumor is real, i believe we'll see 2-4 GB small form factor ipods around $200 to $300. the current iPods migh come down $50 in price. There will be devices at very different capacities in similar price ranges, but so what? Rio has the Nitrus and the Karma, Creative has the Muvo2 and the Zen. Apple would have the mini-iPod and the iPod.

All that said, if there is indeed a low cost iPod in the works, it's probably in the same form factor as the current ones, at capacities between 1 and 5 GB.

Timothy
Dec 29, 2003, 11:37 AM
In concert with the Pepsi deal, this gets really interesting. I imagine that Pepsi, in addition to giving away songs, will be giving away a bunch of these smaller iPods as well. The Pepsi deal gives Apple leverage to flood the market with advertising these smaller devices.

This is perfect timing and makes great sense. So, at the very latest, my guess is that these smaller iPods will be available by the time the Superbowl ads hit.

This is going to be fun.

Flowbee
Dec 29, 2003, 11:59 AM
i believe we'll see 2-4 GB small form factor ipods around $200 to $300. the current iPods migh come down $50 in price.

So you think that the 4gb iPod will cost $300 and the current 10gb iPod will be lowered to $250? Hmmm... interesting.

zellin
Dec 29, 2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
Nope, the economics simply isn't there. It's open knowledge at this point but record companies take 2/3 off the $.99 right off the bat. That leaves Apple with $.33 to pay for the bandwidth, servers, processing of AAC files and artwork, development and maintenance of the site, and marketing. Apple hopes to move 100 mil songs this year. At $.05 a song, that nets them 5 mil in profits. Big whoop di doo.

Just a guess but the iPods prolly have about 35-40% margins. At 35%, one million ipods will net $140 mil for Apple. Cha Ching. Apple needs to move 2.8 billion songs to approach those profit levels.
If Apple doesn't need that 5 mil i can take it off their hands... :D
As for the name:
I shall call him... mini me! Well he's already been in one Apple commercial...
:cool:

Wonder Boy
Dec 29, 2003, 12:00 PM
i have a 30 giger but would get one of these anyway.

Gymnut
Dec 29, 2003, 12:06 PM
I'm curious as to what kind of battery life these new "mini" iPods will get. I certainly hope Apple releases an iPod software update that fixes the current battery meters currently afflicting the third generation problems.

arn
Dec 29, 2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by pkradd
One RUMOR site reports that there will be two different designs - a low price and mid price version.

No remotely reliable rumor site has reported this.

arn

Lepton
Dec 29, 2003, 12:32 PM
My speculation:

Width and depth same as current iPod, new height same as the width. Same screen on front, same controls on back. Same docking connector. Toshiba 2GB 1" hard drive. $149. A few months later, a 3GB model, same price.

Alternate form factor: 1.2" high, 4" wide, 0.7" deep. On the rightmost inch is a miniature round controller like current ones. Rest of the front is LCD screen. Software can invert screen to aloow controller to be on left. Buttons on top.

iMook
Dec 29, 2003, 12:56 PM
I don't think Apple is going to stick with a form factor remotely similar to the iPod's. Though Apple isn't known for succumbing to the bandwagon effect, both Rio and Creative, in their Nitrus/Karma and MuVo2/Zen Xtra, respectively, have entirely different form factors on their devices. Each of apple's product lines (e.g. iMac, eMac, G5, Albook, iBook, iPod) fill a distinct niche, and Apple strives for virtually no overlap. Each of these product lines is also visually distinct.

Thus, I doubt that Apple will try to preserve the current iPod's form factor, especially when a smaller HDD platter size allows them flexibility in this respect.

Lepton: I truly doubt that Apple would put the controls on the back, esp with the touchwheel. Ever tried to just "turning" the touchwheel a full circle with your iPod flipped over? It's not easy. Also, how will you hold the player? The screen fills the front, and the wheel is on the back. You'd need duct tape on the sides to keep the player in your hands, and keep it functional.

Alternate form factor: More plausible (IMHO), but personally, I wouldn't like the feel of a tiny touchwheel.

My own little twist: Take away the symbolic iPod touchwheel. Make the miniPod square, height and width being the same as the crrent iPod's, or maybe even a bit smaller. Then, make the top-right corner a three-way rocker switch (up-left, down-right, press-in) That way, you don't have the poor aesthetics of a jog wheel, yet you have something that lets you navigate a smaller library just as effectively, esp. when coupled with something akin to the current iPod's variable-speed scrolling. Have another three-way-rocker on the upper-left corner to handle << >|| >>.
Have a variant of the iPod dock for the miniPod, maybe something less geometrically simple (minimalist), and rounder, for that more-fun-and-less-sophisticated look.

That's my current whim.

P.S. - If HDD, I'd go for the Cornice drive. Cheap enough to make a price point diff from the current ones, and still large enough to be "high-end ultraportable". Of course, you could go for 512MB flash. Makes the device much thinner, extends battery life, and basically makes it skip-proof.

bensisko
Dec 29, 2003, 01:02 PM
It's possible that the new "mini" iPods refer to the size of the disk and not the unit. My guess is that the new "mini" iPods are going to be 5 GB versions coming in at $199 (using the same case as the current models).

IF the case designs were smaller, it's POSSIBLE that, instead of a scroll wheel on the front, there is a jog wheel on the side.

I'm guessing that Apple will probably want to keep as many things the same as they can so they don't have to invest in everything new that comes along with designing a "new" product.

the_mole1314
Dec 29, 2003, 01:06 PM
I'm sticking with what I'm hearing. The iPods will be the same height and lenght, but a smaller width. From what I'm hearing, along the lines of ONE CD in width! Ofcourse, it can change at anymoment.

hughdogg
Dec 29, 2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Timothy
In concert with the Pepsi deal, this gets really interesting. I imagine that Pepsi, in addition to giving away songs, will be giving away a bunch of these smaller iPods as well.

Maybe the mini-pod refers only to capacity, since why would Pepsi reportedly buy 600 cases for the 3G size iPod if they new this mini was coming along as part of a promotion...
Macrumors Pepsi Case link (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/12/20031216184136.shtml)

It does make tons of sense, Apple and Pepsi waiting to do this until after Macworld, and tied into the Superbowl...

How about a Mini's Unite campaign with the new Mini-Pod and Mini..Mini Web site... (http://www.mini.com/) I'm going to run quick and trademark that...Mini's Unite!

Cheers to all,
hughdogg

jettredmont
Dec 29, 2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by mr.iso
"A reduction in components cuts costs. The 1.5-inch GB drive, which has been in volume manufacturing since mid-April, sells for $65 in quantities of 10,000. The company is aiming for $50, Magenis said. By contrast, existing standard 1-inch Microdrives from IBM sell for $219 at retail or more, while 1GB flash cards go for around $200."

that's a typo in the article though, it's a 1" 1.5 GB drive

source: http://news.com.com/2100-1041-1012235.html

Crap, I'd completely forgotten about Cornice.

Yep, that's the only plausible way for Apple to produce a high-volume, low-cost GB+ range device in the $100-200 price range.

As I've said before:

Flash is way too expensive (and, despite other poster's claims, there is very little markup there)

1" "Microdrives" are too expensive ($200+ for 1GB new, although there is likely a lot obf markup)

1.8" drives are too expensive *AND* won't fit in a smaller device (unless we're talking millimeters here).

The Cornice drive is perfect for a next-gen iPod. I'd personally like the overall size to stay about the same, the extra space taken up by more battery capacity, but battery is expensive too ...

barbro
Dec 29, 2003, 01:14 PM
A small confirmation of this rumour. The free engraving promotion for ipods on the UK web site runs out on... the 6th January. Seems a strange coincidence...

http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore.woa/91001/wo/Zd4wUKTUJu3n3g3oAGqjMfFB7RY/0.0.7.1.0.5.21.1.1.1.2.0.0.1.0

Regards,
Barry

jettredmont
Dec 29, 2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
Nope, the economics simply isn't there. It's open knowledge at this point but record companies take 2/3 off the $.99 right off the bat. That leaves Apple with $.33 to pay for the bandwidth, servers, processing of AAC files and artwork, development and maintenance of the site, and marketing. Apple hopes to move 100 mil songs this year. At $.05 a song, that nets them 5 mil in profits. Big whoop di doo.

Just a guess but the iPods prolly have about 35-40% margins. At 35%, one million ipods will net $140 mil for Apple. Cha Ching. Apple needs to move 2.8 billion songs to approach those profit levels.

On the other hand, the overall music market is something in the (very rough) range of 4B/year. If Apple were to secure 60% of the overall music market, even assuming the overall music market doesn't increase, that's 2.4B songs per year. At those levels, Apple will have significantly more negotiating sway over record companies, and could IMHO quite easily net a $0.10 profit per song while still providing cut-rate prices ($0.50/song, perhaps) to customers. That's a $240 Million per year business. No longer pocket change, although not exactly a thriving business basis either.

Working out the numbers, it's not impossible for Apple to seek to dominate the online music sales market for the sole sake of the online music market (ie, while casting off iPod profits). It is unlikely, though. Taking a majority market share in a nonexistent market, simultaneously growing that market to consume a currently viable market, AND to do so with few short-term profits and no massive long-term payoff, all at the expense of a short-term thriving market ... well, it's not something your average MBA would try to do ...

jettredmont
Dec 29, 2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by humangod
but you forget, >$100 for 2GB is when YOU as an individual buys the RAM from a dealer. don't you think if apple bought ram in quantity, and directly from the source, they could buy it cheap?

Flash memory is a highly competitive market. You, as a consumer, would pay $260+ for 1GB RAM. In massive bulk quantities, it's unlikely to be less than $200.

That's for ONE GB. Not two, and not four.

Even presuming a killer Flash company that is somehow in a highly competitive market forging 500% profits on 1GB flash, the base price for that 1GB is still about $50. That is what would be required to get anyone 2GB at $100.

No one, I can assure you, is posting 500% profits on Flash memory. No one.

alandail
Dec 29, 2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
Working out the numbers, it's not impossible for Apple to seek to dominate the online music sales market for the sole sake of the online music market (ie, while casting off iPod profits). It is unlikely, though. Taking a majority market share in a nonexistent market, simultaneously growing that market to consume a currently viable market, AND to do so with few short-term profits and no massive long-term payoff, all at the expense of a short-term thriving market ... well, it's not something your average MBA would try to do ...

Why would you suggest they cast off the iPod market? A cheap iPod only grows that market. Nobody in the market for a larger iPod would settle for a 2 or 4 gig model. But there are tons of people who would love a $99 or $149 iPod. It expands their iPod market and expands their music business market.

Timothy
Dec 29, 2003, 01:40 PM
I agree that a less expensive, with little to no margin, could be used as a tool to grow the overall business.

Listen...get people to start buying the iPod line, get them to start buying from ITMS, and sooner or later, they'll need to graduate from their starter iPod to a larger iPod. Sooner or later, as their music library grows, they'll be less and less likely to change platforms.

I can see Apple working very hard to flood the market with a smaller, no profit iPod. By doing so, they'll increase their overall sales of the larger iPods.

SharksFan22
Dec 29, 2003, 01:44 PM
Here's a weird scenario. My 2nd gen 10GB iPod's headphone jack recently failed and while I've yet to take it to Apple, I expect it will cost at least $100 to repair. For my own personal use, I've found 10GB to be way beyond what I need and don't want to spend close to $400 for a replacement unit (unit + dock & access.), but would snap up a $149 2GB unit. That capacity is more than enough for me and fits a nice price point. The broken 10GB iPod would then be used as a backup drive for my laptop.

SiliconAddict
Dec 29, 2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by kidA
first of all apple is not known for blowing the profit margins in an industry. they have never undersold competition before and there is no real reason for them to start now.

How about surviving?!? Apple sold a million iPods this year. Well that’s great. They also have had little to no competition. If Dell and the like continue to undercut Apple that 30% of the music player market it’s going to dwindle. (Sound familiar?)
Apple needs a cheaper device. If they don’t the rest of the world is going to pass them by. The only reason Apple has done so well thus far is zero competition. This has always been the case with any Apple product. Initially they kick the PC world’s butt but then along comes someone like Dell to make a cheaper device and slowly but surely eats away at Apple’s market. If they play the same strategy they have done with the computer market they are going to once again be relegated to a 2% market share. From all appearances apple is realizing this, even though its fan base ISN’T, and taking steps from ending up in this situation.

k2k koos
Dec 29, 2003, 02:15 PM
Color coded iPods, each to their own, i liek em more neutral, perhasp they can launch a Pro model dubbed the PowerPod perhaps, made of a sleek ALU casing, and have 40 or 60Gb storage... oh of course ,firewire 800... ;) ;)

k2k koos
Dec 29, 2003, 02:17 PM
sorry for the spelling mistakes, it's the Christmas wine in my system....

and a dodgy keyboard....

MacFan25
Dec 29, 2003, 02:21 PM
If Apple puts a reasonable price on these, they're going to be flying off the shelves. The iPods have always been selling well, but now I can really see the iPod becoming the successor to the Sony Walkman. Everyone will be wanting one.

TheInevitable
Dec 29, 2003, 02:27 PM
If Apple can sell refurb 10GB iPods for $169. I'm sure they can find a way to make and sell 2GB iPods for $150 or less.

revenuee
Dec 29, 2003, 02:35 PM
Wouldn't mind seeing an iPod in Aluminum dubbed PowerPod in a larger size or make the 40 Gig in that line maybe add a 50 or 60 like k2k koos suggested


then keep the 10 and 20 in the white iPod

and then for the smaller xPod rather then miniPod

the lower end would be the ePod?

starboard
Dec 29, 2003, 02:40 PM
they'd have to be between $100 and $200. Any more than that, and people would be less likely to buy them, considering the lowest end of the iPods are $299. I mean would you pay $250 for a 4gig, when you can get a 10 gig for only $50 more? imo, even paying $200 for a 4gig is steep.

revenuee
Dec 29, 2003, 02:47 PM
It's an Apple product ... and your always going to pay a premium price for an Apple product

NusuniAdmin
Dec 29, 2003, 02:48 PM
Steve jobs with his titanium fetish will probably make the mini-ipods look like mini-g5's. They will need to have 5 fans in them for proper cooling hahaha.

ethernet76
Dec 29, 2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by hokka


I've heard horribe stories about Flash based storage solutions, a distributors (not reseller) friend of mine here in Oz stopped selling the 1GB version as it's basically 2 x 512MB soldered together (on top of each other - since there are no commercially/readily available 1GB or more at this time

This is completely incorrect.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/common/product_list.aspx?family_cd=FME0109

Samsung lists several under mass production.

As well as serveral 2GB versions on a single die under development for release soon.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/common/product_list.aspx?family_cd=FME0110

geerlingguy
Dec 29, 2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by arn
well, let me put it this way....

and this is without any particular inside knowledge... but simply looking at the existing industry.

$99 Flash MP3 players on the market right now top out at 128MB

2GB MicroDrives cost $250+ for the drives alone. [edit: $350 here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=302869&is=REG)]

I don't see how Apple's going to sell them at $99 for 2GB... but who knows...

arn

How about this:

Steve strolls across the stage holding his water bottle and announces (after a G5 powerbook and xserves), "Oh, and another thing: Apple just bought Toshiba." <a hush over the crowd> "Yeah. We thought it would be nice if we made the drives in the iPods for ourselves, and this purchase enabled us to mass-produce the Toshiba (now Apple) 2GB and 4GB drives for less than a hundred bucks. That brings me to my next topic: the iPod. You can now purchase a 2GB iPod with Apple-replaceable, customizable faceplates for only $49!" <crowd goes wild> <I die from heart attack>

<then I wake up>

Loopy
Dec 29, 2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by caveman_uk
So long as it isn't either iPod-lite or iPod extreme...

you can already get a minipod

www.podspeakers.com

billyboy
Dec 29, 2003, 02:58 PM
The iPod is popular because it works, so the cheap iPod will also have to work seamlessly regardless of choice of storage.

The iPod also sells because it is cool. Therefore it would be a real bummer as the owner of a $500 iPod to nod at a person in the street with tell tale white buds in their ears, only to find out later that they paid a fraction of $500 to get into the same Club Cool. Nodding and DJ iPod parties will change forever.

So, the cheap iPod is basically the same functionally, but instantly recognisable as being different from the cool, killer mega giga iPod sweeping the western world. Apple have to get it dead right unless they want to jeopardise the popularity of their highly profitable flagship music product just as it is gathering pace.

Just hope they did their market research and combine the right size product for the market with an "Apple style" technological breakthrough in cheap dependable storage.

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by starboard
they'd have to be between $100 and $200. Any more than that, and people would be less likely to buy them, considering the lowest end of the iPods are $299. I mean would you pay $250 for a 4gig, when you can get a 10 gig for only $50 more? imo, even paying $200 for a 4gig is steep. hah, until recently, a lot of people were saying that $199 was the threshold for a commodity electronics devise. Everytime there's a new rumor, the threshold goes down more and more. So we're at $100 now?


Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Apple needs a cheaper device. If they don’t the rest of the world is going to pass them by. The only reason Apple has done so well thus far is zero competition. This has always been the case with any Apple product. Initially they kick the PC world’s butt but then along comes someone like Dell to make a cheaper device and slowly but surely eats away at Apple’s market. That's not entirely true. There's always been a buttload of mp3 players out there, including HD-based players. Yes, Apple was the first to use the 1.8" HDD and make a high-capacity player in a small form factor, but it was nothing conceptually new. If you remember, when the iPod first came out, people were complaining that it was just a bloody mp3 player and asking where the innovation was.


Originally posted by TheInevitable
If Apple can sell refurb 10GB iPods for $169. I'm sure they can find a way to make and sell 2GB iPods for $150 or less. May I ask where you can buy a 10GB iPod for $169???


Originally posted by revenuee
Wouldn't mind seeing an iPod in Aluminum dubbed PowerPod in a larger size or make the 40 Gig in that line maybe add a 50 or 60 like k2k koos suggested

then keep the 10 and 20 in the white iPod

and then for the smaller xPod rather then miniPod

the lower end would be the ePod? What's with all the cheesy names?? And what's the 'power' in a PowerPod? It's the same dang iPod, but with a bigger drive! Shoot, I want the PowerPod Extreme 20th Anniversary Special Edition.

ChronoIMG
Dec 29, 2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by billyboy

So, the cheap iPod is basically the same functionally, but instantly recognisable as being different from the cool, killer mega giga iPod sweeping the western world. Apple have to get it dead right unless they want to jeopardise the popularity of their highly profitable flagship music product just as it is gathering pace.

They will cripple the 2GB and 4GB models at the software level. No way in **** are they going to let people do the same things with a 2GB that you can with the more expensive models.

The "mini" iPod will still be cool, just in a different way. The "pro" iPod will still be the way to go with those that care and have extra cash.

Mom and Dad are going to buy kids the "mini" iPod and that's just what Apple wants.

revenuee
Dec 29, 2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by geerlingguy
How about this:

Steve strolls across the stage holding his water bottle and announces (after a G5 powerbook and xserves), "Oh, and another thing: Apple just bought Toshiba." <a hush over the crowd> "Yeah. We thought it would be nice if we made the drives in the iPods for ourselves, and this purchase enabled us to mass-produce the Toshiba (now Apple) 2GB and 4GB drives for less than a hundred bucks. That brings me to my next topic: the iPod. You can now purchase a 2GB iPod with Apple-replaceable, customizable faceplates for only $49!" <crowd goes wild> <I die from heart attack>



<then I wake up>

hmm... nice dream ...

i don't think Apple could afford to buy out Toshiba ...

but it's still a nice dream :)

e2chris
Dec 29, 2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by arn
yep, I believe this rumor (cheaper, mini ipods) , so I guess we have to assume Apple somehow got pricing down.

arn

I havent had time to read all the posts yet... anyway... I think this might turn out like the console wars. Apple might have to take a hit on the hardware to make there Music Store the defacto Music Store. The more ipods they sell, the more likely people will use the Apple Music store. Who was that guy that made all that money off of software and said screw the hardware? Gates something...

ethernet76
Dec 29, 2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by k2k koos
Color coded iPods, each to their own, i liek em more neutral, perhasp they can launch a Pro model dubbed the PowerPod perhaps, made of a sleek ALU casing, and have 40 or 60Gb storage... oh of course ,firewire 800... ;) ;)

PowerPod is not a likely name. Power indicates the professional line. Powermac, powerbook are both high-end products. Where as the iMac, iBook are more consumer models.

iPod is taken and won't be moved, and apple will probably want to capitalize on the name recoginition that the iPod has.

I'm thinking ePod is lame, they won't use that.

And checking that a patent hasn't been filed for anything new recently from apple, I'm thinking iPod Jr., or just iPod.

ChronoIMG
Dec 29, 2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by e2chris
I havent had time to read all the posts yet... anyway... I think this might turn out like the console wars. Apple might have to take a hit on the hardware to make there Music Store the defacto Music Store. The more ipods they sell, the more likely people will use the Apple Music store. Who was that guy that made all that money off of software and said screw the hardware? Gates something...
Would be a great idea IF Apple actually made money on the "software", in this case the iTMS.

Remember, Apple doesn't make a profit with the iTMS, it's used as a trojan to sell more hardware :)

e2chris
Dec 29, 2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by ChronoIMG
Would be a great idea IF Apple actually made money on the "software", in this case the iTMS.

Remember, Apple doesn't make a profit with the iTMS, it's used as a trojan to sell more hardware :)

Good point. I am not a business pro but say they get .05 cents a song times 25million songs sold. That is still 1.25 million. Is that not good?

revenuee
Dec 29, 2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by dongmin



What's with all the cheesy names?? And what's the 'power' in a PowerPod? It's the same dang iPod, but with a bigger drive! Shoot, I want the PowerPod Extreme 20th Anniversary Special Edition.

Fine, how about the "ikickyouinthecrochPod" then :) ... LOL

Power ... Bluetooth, firewire 800, color,

and we can't forget

battery life of 2 hours .... haha

ethernet76
Dec 29, 2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by e2chris
I havent had time to read all the posts yet... anyway... I think this might turn out like the console wars. Apple might have to take a hit on the hardware to make there Music Store the defacto Music Store. The more ipods they sell, the more likely people will use the Apple Music store. Who was that guy that made all that money off of software and said screw the hardware? Gates something...

Apple has stated over and over again. Their goal is to use the iTMS to promote the increased buying of iPods which have huge profit margins. iTMS is bearly breaking even. I don't see why they would reduce prices to below profit to promote something that isn't making profit. That's call bankruptcy.

Gates is also a crook. Why does an Office upgrade cost 500 dollars when all they did was make the paper clip more annoying? You can't tell me that office is more expensive to upgrade than it is to launch a new video game. Word should be 50 dollars, not 500. People are too stupid to realize that there are other things out there other than word that work just as well if not better.

ethernet76
Dec 29, 2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by e2chris
Good point. I am not a business pro but say they get .05 cents a song times 25million songs sold. That is still 1.25 million. Is that not good?

Gross margin is 27.5 percent. Which means after everything is said and done, apple has 27.5 percent of annual sales left to invest in: long term debt, R&D, and other categories.

5% profit is not an acceptable means of profit.

kimble
Dec 29, 2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by happyadam
[B]Assuming of course that Apple are supplying the memory. It may not be likely, but what if Apple were to supply just a cheap 128 or 256MB card, but allow you, the customer, to upgrade to any CFII memory you want.

So 100-150$ buys you a (limited) iPod, but you're still likely to splash out some more cash for more memory (as is the case for digital cameras)


What I think would be interesting would be if the mini iPod was just a slimmed down version of the existing iPod but instead of having a hard drive inside, it would instead have slots for accepting Sony memory sticks. It would come with a single small memory stick the same way that digital cameras do (I.e. everybody goes out and buys a bigger card at the same time) By allowing it to have multiple card slots it could ship with something like a 128 meg card to get you started and you could fill it up with as big as cards as you want/can afford.

the_mole1314
Dec 29, 2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by NusuniAdmin
Steve jobs with his titanium fetish will probably make the mini-ipods look like mini-g5's. They will need to have 5 fans in them for proper cooling hahaha.

That reminds me, I remeber hearing something along the lines of there being an all plastic iPod, but shock problems are keeping it from being sold. Mabey that's how they'll drop the price?

Photorun
Dec 29, 2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
May I ask where you can buy a 10GB iPod for $169???


Wow, you sound oddly bitter.

Anyways, I got my $169 10 GB iPod from the Apple Store, go there and click on the red tag marked "Deals," they sell 10 GBs there (last gen) for that much and 20 GB for as low as $239 I've seen. Anyhoo, I'm assuming they're making a little profit on these so the previous poster who's you're sniping here was 100% correct and I agree, don't see why they couldn't do a 2 GB iPod for as low a price point.

alandail
Dec 29, 2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by ethernet76
Gross margin is 27.5 percent. Which means after everything is said and done, apple has 27.5 percent of annual sales left to invest in: long term debt, R&D, and other categories.

5% profit is not an acceptable means of profit.

This is incremental profit. Apple has to net more money per album sold than Amazon. Money that goes straight to the bottom line.

SiliconAddict
Dec 29, 2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by ChronoIMG
They will cripple the 2GB and 4GB models at the software level. No way in **** are they going to let people do the same things with a 2GB that you can with the more expensive models.


They were saying the same thing about iTunes for Windows before it was released. Identical feature set. The software is going to be the same or if nothing else someone will find a way of hacking the ROM, iPods use EEPROM right?!!, to allow the multiGB iPods ROM to be loaded onto a 1-2GB iPod. One way or another it will happen. I personally don't see apple crippling the OS out of the box but hey *shrugs* Its Apple. Who knows what they are going to do.

Jellinek
Dec 29, 2003, 05:00 PM
I'd guess the smaller/lower GB models are the higher end, and the price will be going down on the current iPod.

see:

http://asia.creative.com/products/portaudio/muvo_2_4gb/welcome.asp

4 gig for a ton of money...

dj

zellin
Dec 29, 2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by ethernet76
PowerPod is not a likely name. Power indicates the professional line. Powermac, powerbook are both high-end products. Where as the iMac, iBook are more consumer models.

iPod is taken and won't be moved, and apple will probably want to capitalize on the name recoginition that the iPod has.

I'm thinking ePod is lame, they won't use that.

And checking that a patent hasn't been filed for anything new recently from apple, I'm thinking iPod Jr., or just iPod. Uh, if you read his/her post, they did say a "pro model"

hokka
Dec 29, 2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Jellinek
I'd guess the smaller/lower GB models are the higher end, and the price will be going down on the current iPod.

see:

http://asia.creative.com/products/portaudio/muvo_2_4gb/welcome.asp

4 gig for a ton of money...

dj

Interesting, though you could of just listed the retail price of USD $390!!! And it's butt-ugly like all Creative crap (catered for the Asian aesthetics which we all know is somewhat cheesy)

Here's a link and an extracted info:

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/337/C2337/

"The lightweight and compact NOMAD MuVo2 4GB is as small as a flash memory based player at 67mm by 66.5mm, yet with its tiny Compact Flash Type II one inch micro drive it can hold up to 2100 songs in high-quality WMA format! A fraction of the size and weight of the Apple iPod, the NOMAD MuVo2 4GB holds almost as much music, yet is priced at an estimated street price of around $390 USD"

revenuee
Dec 29, 2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by hokka
(catered for the Asian aesthetics which we all know is somewhat cheesy)



Thats rather subjective don't you agree?

and would you care do define "Asian aesthetics" ?

hokka
Dec 29, 2003, 05:53 PM
Sure, being a product designer and an Asian myself, I should know :)

Been cheesy meaning it's choice of materials (I never really like the choice of plastics used Creative players, they seem cheap - yes, it's not metal you see, but painted plastic), layout (look at the material rolls around the buttons - it's so 90's Sony), colour scheme (very PC centric), functionality (designed for the small handed Asian market)...

I know it can be subjective, but after you have held/used an iPod, I think we can objectively say the Creative's offering is cheesy at best, crapilicious (I made this word up) at worst... I'm sure many would agree, would you? :p

BagelTycoon
Dec 29, 2003, 05:55 PM
The rumored new iPods sound like they might be flash drives. Remember, those impossible to find
Digitalway USB 1.5 GB (http://www.mpio.com/goods/hs100.php) keychain drives supposedly retail for $199.

A 2 or 4 GB flash iPod sounds like a logical, cost-effective step for music & on-the-fly storage.

If they hit the shelves at a supposed $99-$150 pricepoint, that would be a bold move by Apple (and a put a smile on the face of lo-sto freaks like me!)

x86isslow
Dec 29, 2003, 06:06 PM
quote:Originally posted by Steven1621

what is apple thinking? the need to upgrade the xserve line asap. how can they sleep at night knowing that they are selling severs with antiquated chips in them?

well steve has a speech at CES??

maybe he'll make some major announcements there- powermacs to 2.6 at the top, xserves to G5, blow away the pc folks with all sorts of new tech.

illumin8
Dec 29, 2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by zapp
Power consumption would be very low even when playing music( no hard drive to spin)

iPod already does this. It only spins up the hard drive long enough to fill the 32MB buffer.

Originally posted by dongmin
So how do you maintain the data when the iPod is turned off? Are you proposing that the iPod is kept at a permanent low-power state?? And you do that with a battery??? And when the battery is finally drained, what happens????

The iPod already does this. It's obvious from reading these two comments that neither one of you actually own an iPod. The iPod, when turned off, isn't actually off. It goes to a low-power sleep mode. If you leave it sleeping for a couple of days it will do a full power off. The problem with a full power off on the iPod is that it takes about 2 minutes to boot the OS the first time you turn it on. This would not be acceptable for a consumer device where you want to hit play and hear music instantly.

Playball
Dec 29, 2003, 06:30 PM
Here's my totally uneducated guess on the mini-iPods:

in addition to catering to a low-cost market, Apple will also cater to runners who enjoy music with the iRun - a 2-4 gb flash-based digital music player. In addition to all of the postivies listed in prior posts, the iRun will be able to be taken where iPods can't - namely anywhere involving jarring motion, like running or mountain biking.

The upshot of this is that Apple wouldn't just be fleshing out it's product line, as it's quite possible that a user might own BOTH an iPod and an iRun.

I'm alos going to go out on a limb and predict that Jobs announces that the iRun will be (in some form) co-branded with Nike. While Apple likes to play by themselves, I think Apple would recognize Nike's excellent brand and can see all the potential in associating with the leading active brand. (And Nike would be associated with the leading digital music brand.)

(btw: Phillips already sells an MP3 player co-branded with Nike.)

What do you think?

(btw: I also think - contrary to popular rumors - that we'll see new PMacs AND new iMacs @ MWSF.)

firewood
Dec 29, 2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by zellin
If Apple doesn't need that 5 mil i can take it off their hands... All you have to do is figure out a guaranteed way to increase iTunes sales by at least an additional $100M over the same time period and they might be interested.

greenstork
Dec 29, 2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by cr2sh
Could it be a stunt just like last year.. where everyone who REALLY wanted a new powerbook ran out and bought one before Christmas. They were so happy with their nice, new, 15" Ti.. and then right after Christmas, WHAM! Alumibook.

Everyone who really wanted an iPod for Christmas got one already.. an after Christmas release is just an attempt to pick up the stragglers...

How about... No?

If Apple releases a minipod, cheaper and smaller.. and does so Jan. 5... it will have been one of the worst timed releases.. ever.

Yeah, they would have lost out on so many buyers who spent more money on current iPods this Christmas season. It's not like Apple didn't sell iPods hand-over-fist this holiday season, iPods sold out at all sorts of sotores around the country. There was no reason to release cheaper, smaller margin products before Christmas when most buyers were willing to spend more.

Bad for the consumer, maybe, but bad for Apple, no way, not with demand for current iPods at all time highs. There was no reason to offer cheaper alternatives and potentially iPods with smaller margins.

jiggie2g
Dec 29, 2003, 07:23 PM
REALLY I DON'T WHY ARE U PEOPLE BITCHING ABOUT A $99 MINI iPod , there is a low end mp3 player market that is just ripe for the picking and Apple is going to Capitalize on this, Rio saw this also which is why they recently Released thier 1in hard drive player The Rio Nitrus (1.5gb) which retails at $299 but can be had as low as $179 at some web retailers, so it is very possible that apple can release a low cost mini iPod. if Apple were to some how manage to release a 2gb Mini iPod for $99 you can KISS THIS FLASH PLAYER MARKET GOOD BYE BECAUSE THESE THINGS WILL SELL FASTER THAN GAMEBOY SP'S AND THAT'S HOW APPLE MAKE'S IT'S PROFITS OUT OF PURE VOLUME. Honestly how many of us really need a freakin 20-40GB iPod. I myself have owned the original 5GB iPod for nearly 2yrs and still don't listen to half the stuff on it and my Music Collection is 13GB on my iMac but i don't listen to more than maybe 30% of that on a regular basis and to be Honest of u have time to listen to 20GB of Music then maybe it's time for you 2 get a hobby. a Mini iPod would fit life my just perfectly as i was considering the purchase of a small flash based MP3 player for my trips 2 to the gym. Plus have you people forgotten that thier are millions of consumers that either can't afford or are just unwilling to Fork over $400 for a freaken MP3 Player ,Parents Especially they don't want to see thier kid get beat up and robbed in school over a freakin Souped up walkman and then have $400 go down the drain. I don't care if it is the iPod, $400 is a weeks pay for alot of people in this country , and yea i know there is a $300 iPod but then ustill have to buy the dock $40 + case $40 + remote $40= $120 on top of the 300 u just spent , Do the Math . multi color mini iPods would be cool provided that it is face a plate they use like Nokia Phones, i think apple learned thier lesson from the original colored iMac . toshiba makes the 1in drives and apple has been in bed with toshiba since the birth of the Hard drive MP3 player so i'm sure Toshiba may give apple a farvorable discount on these drives. we are about to witness Apple complete thier cornering of the portable music market in the same way Sony did in the 80's and 90's . I also hope Apple finally smartens up and includes an FM tuner + with a real functional remote like the Sony Mini Disc players or Sony Walkmans , they are Perfect examples to follow. so all you nay sayer need to shut it and just accept the inevitable. It's coming and very soon.

greenstork
Dec 29, 2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by kidA
first of all apple is not known for blowing the profit margins in an industry. they have never undersold competition before and there is no real reason for them to start now. that's dell's job.

I'm not saying that Apple should or shouldn't do anything differently but it is important to point out that Dell has outmarketed Apple and gained a significant market share through this strategy. If Apple wants to be the be-all end-all of online music and music players, they better damn well compete on price and undersell all of the competition.

If not, Apple music products will go the way of their computers, servicing only a niche market.

I'm not saying this is bad but I don't think they want to be a niche player. They want to corner the market. To do so, they will need to market iPods completely differently than they have with their computers and drop their industry leading profit margins to compete on price.

IMO, they'd be silly not to with the market share they already have and the first mover advantage of the iTMS.

ITR 81
Dec 29, 2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by x86isslow
quote:Originally posted by Steven1621



well steve has a speech at CES??

maybe he'll make some major announcements there- powermacs to 2.6 at the top, xserves to G5, blow away the pc folks with all sorts of new tech.

I wouldn't doubt it. Because the CES show doesn't even start until the 8th so that gives him a couple days to get things ready for CES.

I wonder if anyone is going to CES this yr.
I would goto both if I was on the west coast.

greenstork
Dec 29, 2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by e2chris
Good point. I am not a business pro but say they get .05 cents a song times 25million songs sold. That is still 1.25 million. Is that not good?

To a company the size of Apple,$1.25 million is pennies, and would not even pay their electric bill.

dongmin
Dec 29, 2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by illumin8
The iPod, when turned off, isn't actually off. It goes to a low-power sleep mode. If you leave it sleeping for a couple of days it will do a full power off. Whatever. The point is that with RAM, you risk losing all your data when the bloody thing does power off at some point. With solid state media and HDs, obviously, that's not an issue.

So tell me again how you're gonna secure data on RAM with a battery device?

greenstork
Dec 29, 2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by illumin8
iPod already does this. It only spins up the hard drive long enough to fill the 32MB buffer.



The iPod already does this. It's obvious from reading these two comments that neither one of you actually own an iPod. The iPod, when turned off, isn't actually off. It goes to a low-power sleep mode. If you leave it sleeping for a couple of days it will do a full power off. The problem with a full power off on the iPod is that it takes about 2 minutes to boot the OS the first time you turn it on. This would not be acceptable for a consumer device where you want to hit play and hear music instantly.

I'm sorry, my iPod has NEVER taken 2 minutes to boot up. From full power down, it takes 20-30 seconds at the most to boot up.

ethernet76
Dec 29, 2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by zellin
Uh, if you read his/her post, they did say a "pro model"

Everyone knows. Pro is always introduced before the consumer series. Powermac before iMac, Powerbook before iBook. In terms of storage how would a 4 GB version make it the pro version? Even if it was "DJ" version don't DJ's have crates upon crates of vinyl? Also, doesn't vinyl sound 20x better than AAC or MP3?

Think about it. A Professional level iPod for 99 and 199 and consumer levels at 299,399, and 499?

That would be the equivalent of selling the iBook for more than the powerbook.

Fahd
Dec 29, 2003, 09:47 PM
I would definitely get one. If its under $100 I may end up buying about 5 of them. :cool:

Off topic: When is MacWorld Expo or whatever I should be waiting for? :D

hokka
Dec 29, 2003, 10:11 PM
GS Magicstor Inc. (based in China) currently produce two versions: 2.2/2.4GB & a 4.4/4.8GB 1" Microdrive ( http://www.gs-magicstor.com/english/products-E/index.htm )

Since it's produced in China, the price would be very competitive I would imagine... then there's also MarQlin Corp. based in San Jose ( http://www.marqlin.com/ )

Don't just look at Cornice just because it "promises" to get the price down to $50 a pop and all the media jumped on it... look deeper guys

Further more according to this article: Sub-1-inch hard disk drives on the horizon

http://news.softpedia.com/news/2/2003/December/6257.shtml

""Disk drives are going into more and more applications," said Thomas M. Coughlin, president of storage market analysis company Coughlin Associates Inc., during a storage industry conference in Tokyo in November. "Companies are looking at 1.8-inch, 1-inch and possibly 0.8-inch or 0.7-inch drives."

"Several companies are expected to launch 1.8-inch drives during 2004 and Hitachi already has two competitors in the 1-inch market space. They are Colorado-based Cornice Inc., which brands its 1.5GB drive the "Storage Element" and is already shipping the drive to customers including iRiver Co. Ltd. and Digitalway Co. Ltd. for use in MP3 players, and GS Magicstor Inc., a start-up disk maker based in China's western province of Guizhou"

e2chris
Dec 29, 2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Fahd
I would definitely get one. If its under $100 I may end up buying about 5 of them. :cool:

Off topic: When is MacWorld Expo or whatever I should be waiting for? :D


Dude! Do you have internet access?

alandail
Dec 29, 2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by jiggie2g
Honestly how many of us really need a freakin 20-40GB iPod. I myself have owned the original 5GB iPod for nearly 2yrs and still don't listen to half the stuff on it and my Music Collection is 13GB on my iMac but i don't listen to more than maybe 30% of that on a regular basis and to be Honest of u have time to listen to 20GB of Music then maybe it's time for you 2 get a hobby. a Mini iPod would fit life my just perfectly as i was considering the purchase of a small flash based MP3 player for my trips 2 to the gym.

I agreed with the first half of what you said - but didn't agree with this part at all. Why wouldn't you want to have your whole collection with you? It's not about listening to 20 gigs of music - it's about deciding which dozen songs out of that 20 gigs you want to listen to now. Or about not deciding - just put it on random play.

IIvan
Dec 29, 2003, 10:36 PM
Why wouldn't Apple just continue calling it ipod unless they made some massive cosmetic changes? They kept the iMac name- completely different computer- same concept- and the original ipod (5 gig) is long gone... stil ipod. Also what would they be thinking with wild color schemes? would you really want an orange ipod? maybe black or grey or something- but hell- thay managed to make all those fruity ibooks look ok.


btw- Photorun- when did you get your ipod? I looked and didn't see any pods :mad: but I might get one at those prices

Fahd
Dec 29, 2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by e2chris
Dude! Do you have internet access?

Lol, couldnt have posted that otherwise, could I? :D Just not a macfanatic like most of you guys.

illumin8
Dec 29, 2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
Whatever. The point is that with RAM, you risk losing all your data when the bloody thing does power off at some point. With solid state media and HDs, obviously, that's not an issue.

So tell me again how you're gonna secure data on RAM with a battery device?
Flash memory is not volatile. Once it's written it stays written. Hard drives aren't volatile either. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

illumin8
Dec 29, 2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by greenstork
I'm sorry, my iPod has NEVER taken 2 minutes to boot up. From full power down, it takes 20-30 seconds at the most to boot up.
I have a 3G iPod that is completely full (~27 GB). I haven't actually timed it, but it seemed like about 2 minutes last time I cold booted it.

Yours might be different, I'm just speaking from personal experience. It might take less time to boot if you have less media.

revenuee
Dec 29, 2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by alandail
I agreed with the first half of what you said - but didn't agree with this part at all. Why wouldn't you want to have your whole collection with you? It's not about listening to 20 gigs of music - it's about deciding which dozen songs out of that 20 gigs you want to listen to now. Or about not deciding - just put it on random play.

exactly

i have just over 1 gig of mp3's on my computer right now ... and i got a 20 gig iPod for Xmas ... i'm more then happy with having the iPod that big ... i think i'm going to take some time and rip all my CD's into Mp3's and store them onto my iPod ... heck it would probably leave room for more still .

~Shard~
Dec 29, 2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by jiggie2g
Honestly how many of us really need a freakin 20-40GB iPod. I myself have owned the original 5GB iPod for nearly 2yrs and still don't listen to half the stuff on it and my Music Collection is 13GB on my iMac but i don't listen to more than maybe 30% of that on a regular basis and to be Honest of u have time to listen to 20GB of Music then maybe it's time for you 2 get a hobby.

I guess I must be one of the exceptions then, but I assure you, I have a very active, hectic, diverse life! ;) Only the UK members might know what I'm talking about here, but I record and listen to the BBC Essential Mix every week - it's a 2-hour mix show, put on by the best DJs in the world. I turn each mix into a 170 MB MP3, and since I have all of them since 1993, with 52 shows a year, well, you can do the math! I have a ton of other music too, and with all my audio CDs, well, there will never be an iPod big enough to carry all my tunes around!

But my point is that although I have more music than I could possibly listen to on a regular basis in my lifetime, it's about choice. Sure, I don't have time to listen to 20 GB of music in one sitting, but I sometimes like to play a random mix, or just listen to parts of certain mixes, then move onto another one. I just like the idea of having a ton of music accessible to you, so you can listen to what you want, when you want it, or, thanks to random features, let the player decide for you!

But that's just me, and I do admit I'm probably in the minority. :cool: I do think these mini-iPods, or whatever you want to refer to them as, are going to sell amazingly well, as there is a huge market for the lower-capacity (and resulting lower $$$) portable music players.

Bring it on Apple!

funkywhat2
Dec 29, 2003, 11:11 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned the patent that apple has on the fiber optic color changing thing? I remember everyone thought it was for the iMacs, but when the PowerBooks came out, with the backit keyboards, everyone said that they used it for the backlighting. Maybe that didn't go into the PowerBooks, but it will be used here, to change the case color.

e2chris-- remeber the pippin?

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/fabrice.montupet/pippin1.jpg

~Shard~
Dec 29, 2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by funkywhat2
I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned the patent that apple has on the fiber optic color changing thing? I remember everyone thought it was for the iMacs, but when the PowerBooks came out, with the backit keyboards, everyone said that they used it for the backlighting. Maybe that didn't go into the PowerBooks, but it will be used here, to change the case color.

I have no idea what all this color changing fibre optics technology entails, but my initial guess is that this type of revolutionary technology is not cheap to implement, and we would probably see it in a more expensive product (at least the G5 iMac) before we see it in something like an iPod - I think the resulting costs to implement this technology would be cost-prohibitive. But I'm just guessing here, as I don't know any of the details regarding this color-changing technology.

revenuee
Dec 29, 2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by ~Shard~
I guess I must be one of the exceptions then, but I assure you, I have a very active, hectic, diverse life! ;) Only the UK members might know what I'm talking about here, but I record and listen to the BBC Essential Mix every week - it's a 2-hour mix show, put on by the best DJs in the world. I turn each mix into a 170 MB MP3, and since I have all of them since 1993, with 52 shows a year, well, you can do the math! I have a ton of other music too, and with all my audio CDs, well, there will never be an iPod big enough to carry all my tunes around!

But my point is that although I have more music than I could possibly listen to on a regular basis in my lifetime, it's about choice. Sure, I don't have time to listen to 20 GB of music in one sitting, but I sometimes like to play a random mix, or just listen to parts of certain mixes, then move onto another one. I just like the idea of having a ton of music accessible to you, so you can listen to what you want, when you want it, or, thanks to random features, let the player decide for you!

But that's just me, and I do admit I'm probably in the minority. :cool: I do think these mini-iPods, or whatever you want to refer to them as, are going to sell amazingly well, as there is a huge market for the lower-capacity (and resulting lower $$$) portable music players.

Bring it on Apple!


Ya ... go Essential Mix :)

people have different needs, and some want to make their own playlists and load them on in the morning, others don't ...

i've said it before ... apple is not making products with one person in mind, they know people are diverse ... so are the products

I could care less about an iMac, or eMac, or iBook since i use a Powermac, and plan on getting a Powerbook ... but that doesn't mean Apple should stop making the other products just cause I don't care to use them.

~Shard~
Dec 29, 2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by revenuee
Ya ... go Essential Mix :)

people have different needs, and some want to make their own playlists and load them on in the morning, others don't ...

i've said it before ... apple is not making products with one person in mind, they know people are diverse ... so are the products

I could care less about an iMac, or eMac, or iBook since i use a Powermac, and plan on getting a Powerbook ... but that doesn't mean Apple should stop making the other products just cause I don't care to use them.

Well put, those are my thoughts exactly. And that's why the mini-iPods will succeed - they will address yet another market segment that Apple can generate revenue from.

Oh, and it's nice to see a fellow Canadian into the Essential Mixes as well! If you're ever after any of them, just let me know and we can work something out, as I have pretty much all of them since 1993. ;) (Sorry, I know that's off topic...)

revenuee
Dec 30, 2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by ~Shard~


Oh, and it's nice to see a fellow Canadian into the Essential Mixes as well! If you're ever after any of them, just let me know and we can work something out, as I have pretty much all of them since 1993. ;) (Sorry, I know that's off topic...)

we don't wanna Flood the thread with off-topic conversation, so i PMed you

balconycollapse
Dec 30, 2003, 12:09 AM
Drive

Well i think we can rest assured that a 1.5 gig ipod could be a possiblity with the low tags on some of those cornice drives. I don't like flash because there are too many kinds and its not simple enough for joe schmoe. Plus the flash memory would mess up the whole legality issue with people sharing songs via an easily swappable media.

Colors

I find it hard to believe that Apple would have an agressive campaign with a focal point white iPod only to deviate. I do thing the dayglo colors would actually be kinda cool for a 100 iPod. Market those to young women! At least that scheme would be in keeping with the adverts. I think the faceplate idea is good because we all baby our iPod because of scratching. How much profit could apple make off selling multicolored face plates seperately. Mega markup! I just think it cheapens the device when smiley face or confederate flags start showing up on a music player. I could see a gold iPod for the 20th anniversary but i can't afford that! I think that color changing plastic idea is cool. Or possibly a clear pod with fiber optics so you can choose color led to light. People definately buy personal electronics alot of times for ridiculous stuff like this over practicallity. Remember last years blue glow cell phone craze.

Form Factor/Interface

I think Apple would do best to keep the ipod the same size at least so it can fit in the current dock and work with current devices. I hate how companies release lines of products that each have a specific set of peripherals. Who wants to stand there trying to figure out if the case will work or not (case fits duncan series JXp47/58s only etc). Its irritating enough with the 1G cases 3G cases. Also eventually all the portable music players will have the same technology inside as far as harddrives. But Apple owns them with the gui scroll wheel and interface. Why would they do away with that? The "analog" injection into a digital device is so intuitive and the look of an iPod is what people associate with. I agree that the pepsi purchase of pod casings isn't something you would do if the pod were changing looks.

Battery

I could see the iPod shipping with some sort of removable recharegable batteries that would use the current iPod dock to charge. But i think people have become so accustomed to rechargeble items like cell phones that they don't mind an iPod that they can't swap batteries on provided the battery life is decent.

iTunes

One thing i looked at recently were the smart playlists allowing the user to create a playlist based on megabytes, gigs, minutes, seconds etc. I just hope the process is automated for the novice user with a 1.5 gig.

Edit: ooo lets bank on the rest of the world getting iTunes on the 6th too!

Conclusion

I think it is game over if Apple releases this baby player. Someone made a great point regarding stores only carrying certain lines. I was at compusa last week and saw a display with 20 different types of mp3 players. All boring black or silver with crappy screens and flash media or a few creative rio overpriced units. The display model of the 20gig had long been sold out and rest assured when it comes time to reorder and rethink the display only about 1/2 the players will be there. I don't expect to see iPods at walmart but surely at target which is a little more upscale. If apple can release a player that has the gui of the current iPod but is a little more rugged with faceplates and perhaps changable batteries they will truly have the next walkman in numbers. Lets just hope they get the word out with the superbowl media blitz!


vote howard

alamar
Dec 30, 2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by arn
yep, I believe this rumor (cheaper, mini ipods) , so I guess we have to assume Apple somehow got pricing down.

arn

This kinda makes sense, unless its a loss leader making the entire music store a big useless cash cow driving the company into the ground. Free software, no profit hardware, no profit content. If any company is this stupid, they desire what they get :)

jettredmont
Dec 30, 2003, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Photorun
Wow, you sound oddly bitter.

Anyways, I got my $169 10 GB iPod from the Apple Store, go there and click on the red tag marked "Deals," they sell 10 GBs there (last gen) for that much and 20 GB for as low as $239 I've seen. Anyhoo, I'm assuming they're making a little profit on these so the previous poster who's you're sniping here was 100% correct and I agree, don't see why they couldn't do a 2 GB iPod for as low a price point.

Apple often sells out-dated merchandise at below cost just to get "something" for the inventory.

This is quite common in retail. Even though those 10GB iPods cost Apple far more than $169 to make, they're not going to be able to sell them at cost now, so they want to sell them for whatever price they believe the market will bear.

It's not like Apple is still producing previous-generation iPods and selling them at these fire-sale prices!

jettredmont
Dec 30, 2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by hokka
GS Magicstor Inc. (based in China) currently produce two versions: 2.2/2.4GB & a 4.4/4.8GB 1" Microdrive ( http://www.gs-magicstor.com/english/products-E/index.htm )

Since it's produced in China, the price would be very competitive I would imagine... then there's also MarQlin Corp. based in San Jose ( http://www.marqlin.com/ )

Don't just look at Cornice just because it "promises" to get the price down to $50 a pop and all the media jumped on it... look deeper guys


The advantage of Cornice is that they've tremendously simplified the miniature HD mechanisms (three screws instead of 12 or something like that ...) This simplicity pays off in lower production costs and better reliability (less to break), which in turn lowers manufacturing costs because they don't have to eat warrantee replacements ...

Simply being based in China is no guarantee of competitive pricing, nor really even an indicator of such.

jettredmont
Dec 30, 2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by illumin8
Flash memory is not volatile. Once it's written it stays written. Hard drives aren't volatile either. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

Follow the thread back. He was replying to a guy who suggested that Apple should use DRAM instead of Flash to lower costs.

This is, for fairly obvious reasons I would think, not a really viable idea.

FYI, flash memory (and HDD, for that matter) is volatile; the half-life is just measured in dozens of years instead of microseconds as with DRAM :)

polyesterlester
Dec 30, 2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Fahd
Lol, couldnt have posted that otherwise, could I? :D Just not a macfanatic like most of you guys.

Don't worry about it. Macworld Expo is January 5-9, and Steve Jobs' keynote is on the 6th (and should be streamed online).

twebster
Dec 30, 2003, 01:20 AM
Do you think the colors will match the five colors currently making the rounds in the ipod print and web marketing campaigns?

elgruga
Dec 30, 2003, 02:48 AM
Apple will unveil something less than 1 gig, probably 500 mb for about $129.

The 1 gig , if it appears, will go for $169.

2 gig? Why bother? Just get a 10 Gig and be happy.

Its not the size of the drive that really affects the price, its all the other stuff.
For Apple, buying a 10 gig isnt much different from a 30 gig.

Look for reduced capability, no remote, possibly running on AA batteries or re-chargeables.

In fact, definitely AA's!

No CD, software on board, simple packaging, 2-line screen.

500mb gives about 175 - 200 songs, plenty for most people, and they can change them every day.

Look for changes to iTunes to accomodate some kind of daily 'change your tunes' deal.

Random playlist function - 175 new songs every day, etc.

elgruga
Dec 30, 2003, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by ethernet76

Gates is also a crook. Why does an Office upgrade cost 500 dollars when all they did was make the paper clip more annoying? You can't tell me that office is more expensive to upgrade than it is to launch a new video game. Word should be 50 dollars, not 500. People are too stupid to realize that there are other things out there other than word that work just as well if not better.

Slightly off topic, this bit, but I LOVE IT!

YES! Gates is a crook! Thankyou ethernet for saying this.

hokka
Dec 30, 2003, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by jettredmont
The advantage of Cornice is that they've tremendously simplified the miniature HD mechanisms (three screws instead of 12 or something like that ...) This simplicity pays off in lower production costs and better reliability (less to break), which in turn lowers manufacturing costs because they don't have to eat warrantee replacements ...

Simply being based in China is no guarantee of competitive pricing, nor really even an indicator of such.

I believe the Cornice SE HD was intended for embedded use only, thus, less parts compares to Microdrives - BUT, I'm sure if Apple do use Microdrive it would have less parts too as it will not be a removable media format, and it would not require on-board drivers and protactive casing - thus reduce the cost.

Cornice's products may be used in a few well known brands, BUT I doubt they can PRODUCE the quantity Apple would require for the extreme popular iPod Brand... why? because the product is relatively new and to pump up production would require large orders and with out Apple, they wouldn't do it just to try lure Apple when Apple already has a good relationship with Toshiba and Hitachi - whom are their compatitors and are only expressed their intention to revamp production of the 1.8" - BECAUSE of the iPod (and the spawned competitors like Dell).

Nonetheless, we can't be too logical or rumors would be no fun right? We'll know in a week or so... hope someone's right ;)

xtremdav45
Dec 30, 2003, 03:11 AM
About colored iPods:

A company called ColorWare will paint iPods for about $50. You can send your existing one for $50 or you can buy a new one that is painted for the cost of the iPod plus $65. They also have PowerBook and iBook painting for $399.

http://www.colorwarepc.com/

doogle
Dec 30, 2003, 03:32 AM
http://infotyte.adc.rmit.edu.au/stuff/ipod+upod.jpg

williwilli
Dec 30, 2003, 04:39 AM
picture?

http://www.sejus.com/earth2willi/forums/viewtopic.php?t=416

:eek:

ph_555_shag
Dec 30, 2003, 04:42 AM
I really don't like the ida of colours, the only reason being that when i bought a revision b iMac i had to wait 2 weeks to get it because they came in groups of 5 each when the retailer ordered them, and most people wanted blue and no-one wanted green, so we had to wait for the green ones to sell. What a logistical nightmare.


Btw, that would be probably the best mock up i've seen, although i believe the screen will be slightly bigger.

Pants
Dec 30, 2003, 05:15 AM
Front page of todays (UK) daily telegraph.

smaller ipods retailing for ~£65 pounds holding around 800 songs. Smaller and in colours.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

under 'ipod buyers singing the blues'.

hokka
Dec 30, 2003, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Pants
Front page of todays (UK) daily telegraph.

smaller ipods retailing for ~£65 pounds holding around 800 songs. Smaller and in colours.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

under 'ipod buyers singing the blues'.

Thanks Pants! Great news!

I went through the sign-up process and got the following info for all to chew on (and save some time):

iPod buyers singing the blues
By Robert Uhlig, Technology Correspondent
(Filed: 30/12/2003)

The most popular high-tech toy this Christmas - the Apple iPod - is about to be usurped by a bargain priced mini version.

...

But yesterday Apple dealt a depressing blow to the 1.3 million people who paid up to £450 for the small digital jukebox when news slipped out that it is about to unveil a smaller version costing around £65.

Steve Jobs, chief executive of Apple, is expected to unveil the smaller, cheaper iPods at an exhibition in San Francisco next week.

In addition to the lower-cost iPods, expected to hold up to 800 songs, Apple will introduce different coloured cases for the current white iPod, which holds up to 10,000 songs.

The new mini-iPods are intended for people who want a digital music player but do not need one that can hold music from more CDs than most people have any intention of ever owning.

..."

So this basically confirms there WILL be a USD $99 versioned miniPod and upto 4GB in size (there goes the Cornice idea ;) ).

BUT thank god the COLOUR is only referring to as - Apple will introduce different coloured cases for the current white iPod - NOT coloured miniPods;) ;) ;) ;)

lind0834
Dec 30, 2003, 06:23 AM
Nice confirmation.

Don't care what they call it, or what colors it might come in.
Just give me a MP3 player that will hold a Gig, cost $100, and have a good UI.

williwilli
Dec 30, 2003, 06:55 AM
personally I suspect they are just repeating the rumor reports -- if there was any official confirmation, this would not be the first news source to receive it imo

picture? http://www.sejus.com/earth2willi/forums/viewtopic.php?t=416

Wash!!
Dec 30, 2003, 07:16 AM
It just repeating the same as the other rumors.. but wait apple always has something up their sleeves we just have to wait...:rolleyes:

Sir_Giggles
Dec 30, 2003, 08:35 AM
:( Folks I am dying here. I need my Apple fix, and I need it now.

I got the first gen 20GB and I wouldn't mind picking up another mini-iPod for jogging and working out.

jettredmont
Dec 30, 2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by hokka
I believe the Cornice SE HD was intended for embedded use only, thus, less parts compares to Microdrives - BUT, I'm sure if Apple do use Microdrive it would have less parts too as it will not be a removable media format, and it would not require on-board drivers and protactive casing - thus reduce the cost.


I may be wrong here, but my understanding that the main simplifications to the Cornice design were in the core mechanisms. You don't remove screws by removing an injection-molded interface and a circuit-board controller; you remove screws by redesigning how the platters and heads interact within the device.

When I first heard of Cornice, the pitch was that they had, instead of taking existing 2.5" HD designs and "shrinking" them (same parts, just smaller), totally redesigned their mechanism for small and durable drives from scratch. That type of effort is not easily replicated by Hitachi and Toshiba, unless they've been working on it for a few years.

Yes, they are bare bones drives, without cache and controllers, but that's not the only difference between them and Microdrives; it's not even the defining difference. That is a side-effect of the Cornice drive being intended (designed from the start) as an embedded drive whereas the Microdrive was intended by IBM as a storage-in-a-box Flash replacement/"killer".


Cornice's products may be used in a few well known brands, BUT I doubt they can PRODUCE the quantity Apple would require for the extreme popular iPod Brand... why? because the product is relatively new and to pump up production would require large orders and with out Apple, they wouldn't do it just to try lure Apple when Apple already has a good relationship with Toshiba and Hitachi - whom are their compatitors and are only expressed their intention to revamp production of the 1.8" - BECAUSE of the iPod (and the spawned competitors like Dell).


Two points:

First, you are correct about production concerns. Cornice outsources their production, last I heard, which makes it more expensive than an in-sourced production facilities. On the other hand, until Toshiba and Hitachi have redesigned products for the embedded market, the cost is still in Cornice's favor.

Second, I don't recall an relationship between Hitachi and Apple. Hitachi's drive unit used to be IBM, of course, but that doesn't imply a relationship.

Really, the biggest problem with Cornice is that the drive technology is so damned new. It's not the same product the industry has been evolving for the past forty years. It takes a few rather large steps away from the evolutionary path. As a result, it may be a huge advance, or it may be a complete failure riddled with unforeseen problems.

jettredmont
Dec 30, 2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by elgruga
Its not the size of the drive that really affects the price, its all the other stuff.
For Apple, buying a 10 gig isnt much different from a 30 gig.


Within a specific product, that is true. However, when looking across different product lines (such as from Toshiba to Cornice), you can get significantly different costs if you are willing to sacrifice some capacity.

The "other stuff" besides the HD is relatively cheap, although on a $100 device it will definitely come into play. It could all be paid for with the discount Apple got n Toshiba drives (bare drive $399; iPod with bare drive inside a case with battery and processor etc plus Apple profit, $399). You don't have nearly as much leaway with a $65 drive.

jettredmont
Dec 30, 2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by hokka
So this basically confirms there WILL be a USD $99 versioned miniPod and upto 4GB in size (there goes the Cornice idea ;) ).


Actually, I see this as more confirmation of Cornice than anything. Granted, Cornice hasn't announced a 4GB version of their product yet, but that doesn't mean much. Who had heard of Toshiba's 1.8" drive before the initial iPod launch?

I find it significantly easier to believe that Cornice has upped their capacities (perhaps to 2GB/drive, and the 4GB version contains dual drive mechanisms?) than that Toshiba/Hitachi et al have so drastically lowered their production costs on a brand new ($400/drive+) 4GB drive they've already announced and started to sell.

e2chris
Dec 30, 2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Fahd
Lol, couldnt have posted that otherwise, could I? :D Just not a macfanatic like most of you guys.

You dont get it... think! If I wanted to find out something about Apple I would... hmmm tough one. Apple.com maybe? Or wait... maybe google can answer my question... dam I think its even posted on the frontpage of macrumors.com. Its like asking how to spell a word when you have a dictionary in your hand. Simpleton.

dongmin
Dec 30, 2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by williwilli
personally I suspect they are just repeating the rumor reports -- if there was any official confirmation, this would not be the first news source to receive it imo

picture? http://www.sejus.com/earth2willi/forums/viewtopic.php?t=416

yup, I suspect their 'source' was some joe techie reporter who got tipped by a techie friend of his who got tipped by some mac techie friend of his who reads Macrumors.

It's funny how they say "news slipped out" when they're just reporting hearsay of rumors.

wilco
Dec 30, 2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by e2chris
You dont get it... think! If I wanted to find out something about Apple I would... hmmm tough one. Apple.com maybe? Or wait... maybe google can answer my question... dam I think its even posted on the frontpage of macrumors.com. Its like asking how to spell a word when you have a dictionary in your hand. Simpleton.

Shut up.

NusuniAdmin
Dec 30, 2003, 10:39 AM
Now that I think about it I could use a cheap little 1 or 2 gig mp3 player. Maybe apple will pull a james bond stunt and put the mp3 player into a watch :P

Pants
Dec 30, 2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
yup, I suspect their 'source' was some joe techie reporter who got tipped by a techie friend of his who got tipped by some mac techie friend of his who reads Macrumors.

It's funny how they say "news slipped out" when they're just reporting hearsay of rumors.

Interestingly enough, the London Evening standard is reporting the same 'rumour' as fact. This was on the front page of the telegraph today, and a bigger piece on page 5. The torygraph is not a paper that would usually print such things unless it had good cause to - if only because its petrified about being sued (the paper is up for sale) for loss of business. I suspect its more likely someone has given them the nod.....

revenuee
Dec 30, 2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by doogle
http://infotyte.adc.rmit.edu.au/stuff/ipod+upod.jpg

i really like this

i'd jump on it

revenuee
Dec 30, 2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by wilco
Shut up.

well played

Fahd
Dec 30, 2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by revenuee
i really like this

i'd jump on it

Yeah, that does look really cool. Gotta give those people credit for their graphics skills for doing that. Very neat and I would have fallen for it.

cr2sh
Dec 30, 2003, 03:02 PM
Afer seeing the November stats on MP3 player sales I have to agree that a 1GB or so for $99 would take over the market. The second most popular mp3 player is a $150 128mb... jeez. If this happens, it will be a very aggressive move by Apple and I like it. I'm not sure I like the idea of going flash memory but those new micro drives could be fun. :)

e2chris
Dec 30, 2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by revenuee
well played

f$ck you both then! Roger Wilco? Like I give a sh$t...

~Shard~
Dec 30, 2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by e2chris
f$ck you both then! Roger Wilco? Like I give a sh$t...

Kay, not necessary on this forum. Your initial post was a little harsh, and there was no need to call someone a simpleton. We do not personally insult people on these forums, in case you're new here. Wilco's reply was succinct and to the point, I'll admit, but that is no excuse to blatantly swear like that. That type of behavior will get you banned and is not tolerated on these forums.

If you have something constructive to present, which can contribute to the discussion in a mature, intelligent manner, then please do so. Otherwise, the members on these forums have no time or patience to read childish, pointless posts like this.

alandail
Dec 30, 2003, 05:54 PM
I've seen this on other discussion forums on the internet. Someone asks a question and instead of getting either an answer or a link to where the answer is, they get criticized for asking the question.

Why do people do that - it takes more time to criticize than it does to be helpful.

I think the question still hasn't been answered - so here it is. Steve's keynote is Tuesday, January 6th, 9am PST.

Here's the Keynote Link (http://www.macworldexpo.com/macworldexposf/V40/index.cvn?id=10017&p_navID=8)

Rocketman
Dec 30, 2003, 06:00 PM
Cite:

http://news.com.com/2100-1041-1012235.html

"Hitachi will come out with a 4GB Microdrive before the end of the year. Flash-memory cards, which now hold 1GB of data, meanwhile, will continue to boost density. "

Rocketman

sushi
Dec 31, 2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Rocketman "Hitachi will come out with a 4GB Microdrive before the end of the year. Flash-memory cards, which now hold 1GB of data, meanwhile, will continue to boost density. "
Look at Pretec...

http://www.pretec.com/

On September 22nd, they demo'ed a 6GB CF Card.

They have plans for 12GB during the second quarter.

Granted their prices are very high at this point in time. I would expect this to change soon -- just like it has been doing for existing flash memory.

CF Flash has a lot of potential for huge capacities. IMHO, much more than the HD solutions currently available.

Prices are dropping on CF memory. You can purchase a 1GB CF carf for the same price as a 512 MB last year. Currently CF 512MB cards for sale at sub $100 prices here in Japan.

Sushi

Mattazuma
Jan 1, 2004, 12:47 PM
Check out this page on Cornice's site: http://www.corniceco.com/partners/index.html

PortalPlayer is one of Cornice's "partners". In my mind that makes it pretty likely that Apple is going to use their drives at least for the low end unit. Especially at $50 each.

Matt

Pirate_Will
Jan 1, 2004, 08:24 PM
I am not really a mac fan, but the ipod is a very exciting piece of kit and so when i heard a rumour about a smaller more affordable version i took an even greater interest in it.
So now i have downloaded iTunes for windows, just to check it out (even though i love winamp)
i have also spent a great deal of time on the net reading these forum posts.
Maybe, mac and pepsi (pepsi is mentioned a lot in these things) got together and thought about generating some free advertisement? And what better way than to "leak" a rumour. I will probably even watch the key note speech if its being broadcast on the net, exposing myself to all sorts of other mac products i wouldnt have seen otherwise.
Personally i really hope there is a mini ipod, i will buy one, and mac could make a ton of cash with itunes if they can corner the lower end of the market.
I think that will mean a shock and skip proof player of some sort though because:
1. No-one will buy thier child one if it isnt more durable than the current ipod, the little bugger will only break it
2. The lower capacity players are more likely to be used by joggers etc. Dropping and shaking HDDs isnt too good for them.

I would be interestred to hear others thoughts on this

NeatGekko
Jan 2, 2004, 02:34 AM
MINI IPOD FACTS:

They are going to be HD based but loaded with RAM so it won't skip.

They will ship with multiple colors.

Small...comes with an armband for runners.

NOT $100!!! Are you kidding me! isights aren't even that cheap! This is Apple we are talking about! Its gunna be good. Look for the price to drop around $250.

And now for the size: NO 2BG (weak) Apple will show off a nice 4.5 GB in multiple colors. 2 models in muli color is a nightmare. They will have the one size only.

Some of you may laugh, but this is whats coming...believe it or not. Its fact now. I will smile on the 6th when I turn out to be EXACTLY right. Who else believes me? I will smile again when I'm right and you're wrong. PEACE

Foocha
Jan 2, 2004, 02:41 AM
Hi NeatGekko,

Is this idle speculation, or do you have a valid source?

Careful with your turn of phrase - this board is always on the edge of erupting into a fully-fledged flame-war!

NeatGekko
Jan 2, 2004, 03:43 AM
If I am wrong I will eat my right hand. Lets put it that way. One of those, "not sure I was supposed to know" situations...but I think since everyone knows mini ipods are coming...might as well let the few who read this know how they come.

splashman
Jan 2, 2004, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by NeatGekko
If I am wrong I will eat my right hand. Lets put it that way. One of those, "not sure I was supposed to know" situations...but I think since everyone knows mini ipods are coming...might as well let the few who read this know how they come.

Let's put it this way: I'll be re-posting your claims after the product announcement. If you're right, all hail NeatGekko! If not, I expect you to host a live webcast of the aforementioned meal.

I don't know how many times I've seen versions of this kind of claim. "Honest, I got a peak at a secret memo . . ." Sigh. If I was in your alleged position -- even if the source was God himself -- I'd keep the alleged facts to myself, because there isn't any way for us poor, unenlightened net denizens to tell the eagles from the turkeys.

splashman
Jan 2, 2004, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by NeatGekko
MINI IPOD FACTS:

They are going to be HD based but loaded with RAM so it won't skip.

Um, the existing 3G iPods all have 32MB of RAM cache. They don't play directly from the HD, and they don't skip.

I'm not trying to be facetious; I'm just trying to figure out why you'd mention this miniPod "fact" as if it was going to surprise someone . . .

jayscheuerle
Jan 2, 2004, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by NeatGekko
MINI IPOD FACTS:
Look for the price to drop around $250.


Sounds like another dropped ball for Apple then. Why would someone who won't spend $299 on an iPod spend $250 on a mini-iPod? This would target iPod users that have longed for something a little smaller, but that's about it.

$250 mini-Pods will fly of the shelves like turd-cakes.

NusuniAdmin
Jan 2, 2004, 10:26 AM
NeatGekko please stop posting false things. The ipod thing you said is definitly false. (my uncle works for apple as a ipod designer :) ). Only a moron would make a mini generation of a product only 30 bux less than the current one (unless the current one is really cheap already). The mini ipod will be cheaper than 200 dollars. But that is all I can tell you. Most of this is basic marketing information.

NeatGekko
Jan 2, 2004, 02:35 PM
It is true, I must be honest. I don't know the exact price. BUT I do know the spread. $200-$250. It won't be less than $200. I would love to see a $199 price tag though. I think once people actually see how amazing these little things are, they will be accepting of a higher price tag. Look at the high end iBooks and low powerbooks. Buy a powerbook and you are basically getting less but paying more. Its about size. The smaller it gets, the more people are willing to pay. Thats how it goes with iPods now. They are expensive. People buy them over the other HD based players partly because they are the smallest. Once again, read and weep. PEACE

the_mole1314
Jan 2, 2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Pirate_Will
I am not really a mac fan, but the ipod is a very exciting piece of kit and so when i heard a rumour about a smaller more affordable version i took an even greater interest in it.
So now i have downloaded iTunes for windows, just to check it out (even though i love winamp)
i have also spent a great deal of time on the net reading these forum posts.
Maybe, mac and pepsi (pepsi is mentioned a lot in these things) got together and thought about generating some free advertisement? And what better way than to "leak" a rumour. I will probably even watch the key note speech if its being broadcast on the net, exposing myself to all sorts of other mac products i wouldnt have seen otherwise.
Personally i really hope there is a mini ipod, i will buy one, and mac could make a ton of cash with itunes if they can corner the lower end of the market.
I think that will mean a shock and skip proof player of some sort though because:
1. No-one will buy thier child one if it isnt more durable than the current ipod, the little bugger will only break it
2. The lower capacity players are more likely to be used by joggers etc. Dropping and shaking HDDs isnt too good for them.

I would be interestred to hear others thoughts on this

WELCOME TO THE BOARDS! Thanks for comming! Anyway, from what I'm hearing, Apple has gone the other way on hard drives in the low end players, and now I'm betting that we'll see RAM iPod that isn't much smaller than the 10gig.

Anyway, have fun, mabey you can get a nice iBook G4 to get started on the Mac lifestyle. :D

iMook
Jan 2, 2004, 02:42 PM
NusuniAdmin: From what you're saying, your credibility is about the same as NeatGekko's. Of course, I don't think that the $250 price point makes the miniPod cheap enough to justify the purchase, but of course, there's a different form factor to contend with.

Rio's Fuse has a price point quite close to Cali's, the Chiba's, and (with certain third-party retailers) even the Nitrus'. So, we may just see a miniPod with a smaller form factor at around the same price, for those who don't want something as big (relatively) as the iPod.

NeatGekko
Jan 2, 2004, 02:49 PM
Look at rios 2GB offering. ALL FLASH. Apples will be more than twice as much, for $50 more...looks good to me.

splashman
Jan 2, 2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by iMook
NusuniAdmin: From what you're saying, your credibility is about the same as NeatGekko's. Of course, I don't think that the $250 price point makes the miniPod cheap enough to justify the purchase, but of course, there's a different form factor to contend with.

Rio's Fuse has a price point quite close to Cali's, the Chiba's, and (with certain third-party retailers) even the Nitrus'. So, we may just see a miniPod with a smaller form factor at around the same price, for those who don't want something as big (relatively) as the iPod.

As NusuniAdmin said quite clearly, one doesn't have to have a crystal ball to know that the miniPods will be priced less than $250. The pricing will be determined by basic marketing principles that Apple obviously understands a lot better that many of the wishful posters in this forum. Unlike his predecessors, Steve has repeatedly demonstrated his penchant for providing clear differentiation between product lines. Contrary to what Mr. NeatGecko (gag) thinks, a Powerbook is aimed at a very different market than the iBook, and its features (and price) reflect this. It's NOT just about the size. Apple will NOT release a miniPod that can't clearly define its own market, and that includes price point. Apple wouldn't bother with a new product that wasn't significantly cheaper than the existing line, and $50 doesn't qualify as "significant."

If I had to guess (<-- see that? it's a guess!) I'd say $199 is the magic number. I don't think they'll go lower, because Apple knows they are still in the catbird seat, and can milk the profits for a while longer until somebody else starts seriously threatening their market.

scat999999
Jan 2, 2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by backspinner
With the cheap small devices as bait, the expensive large devices will still sell and maybe even attract more buyers...

Makes a lot of sense to do a 2gb max inexpensive iPod. Expands their marketshare so people will be more likely to want to trade up to the larger, more profitable units once they are locked in to the format.

chales
Jan 2, 2004, 08:53 PM
[Deleted]

BagelTycoon
Jan 2, 2004, 09:05 PM
I take it you're a confirmed carnivore, NeatGekko.

Might I suggest that intead of eating a right hand upon being proven wrong, that you consider substituting a serious number of bagels instead. ;)

They're much healthier wager, and would leave you with 10 fingers to play whatever size iPod is released at MWSF.

But if you're still willing to make that hand eating proposition, I think you're speculations will have more credibility if you back up your rumor with any documentation

:D

doogle
Jan 2, 2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by chales
I was looking for some reviews for the Belkin iPod recorder when I found this :O

http://www.smalldog.com/product/45910

Looks like we have the first website to let the cat out of the bag!


how so? I don't see anything that lets the cat(dog) out of the bag.

revenuee
Jan 2, 2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by chales
I was looking for some reviews for the Belkin iPod recorder when I found this :O

http://www.smalldog.com/product/45910

Looks like we have the first website to let the cat out of the bag!

what in the article say anything about the future iPods?

doogle
Jan 3, 2004, 01:01 AM
now if i had found this at the smalldog website I might get excited...
http://infotyte.adc.rmit.edu.au/stuff/mini-pod2.jpg

NeatGekko
Jan 3, 2004, 03:03 AM
I will not post documentation. I can easily see how that could get me in trouble. For all those that have ears to hear: the new ipods will not be sub $200. Currently, (as in before midnight sat.) I am hoping they sell for $199. Just as a personal pref. Does this mean that the price hasn't been decided yet. Even 3 days before the big event? *smiles* At any rate, whoever said that Apple is trying to define a new market with the launch of mini iPods, is mistaken. Lets say that the Apple stategy is a...."work your way down." concept. I am excited for MW...once everyone sees the units. They are beautiful. The first thought when you see it, isn't how much is it...just a simple, "I want one." Cheers

splashman
Jan 3, 2004, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by NeatGekko
I will not post documentation. I can easily see how that could get me in trouble. For all those that have ears to hear: the new ipods will not be sub $200. Currently, (as in before midnight sat.) I am hoping they sell for $199. Just as a personal pref. Does this mean that the price hasn't been decided yet. Even 3 days before the big event? *smiles* At any rate, whoever said that Apple is trying to define a new market with the launch of mini iPods, is mistaken. Lets say that the Apple stategy is a...."work your way down." concept. I am excited for MW...once everyone sees the units. They are beautiful. The first thought when you see it, isn't how much is it...just a simple, "I want one." Cheers

One more time: Step away from the glue bottle, get the ad for the 12-step group out of the trash, and keep your [CENSORED] [CENSORED] [CENSORED] meanderings to yourself.

[CENSORED] cheers to you, too.

DangerDiabolik
Jan 3, 2004, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by revenuee
what in the article say anything about the future iPods?

EDIT ! AHAHHAHHAAHHHAHAHAHA

Im an idiot...

That 3rd GENERATION ipods.

splashman
Jan 3, 2004, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by BagelTycoon
I take it you're a confirmed carnivore, NeatGekko.

Might I suggest that intead of eating a right hand upon being proven wrong, that you consider substituting a serious number of bagels instead. ;)

They're much healthier wager, and would leave you with 10 fingers to play whatever size iPod is released at MWSF.

On the other hand, with five fewer fingers, it will be somewhat more difficult for NeatGecko to continue to clutter this forum . . . :D

DangerDiabolik
Jan 3, 2004, 03:29 AM
I for one HOPE that this geko is right, nothing would make me happier then to have someone come in a shut everyone up.

3 days stil we find out.

Geko, if you know everything describe the size and a few more specs.

NeatGekko
Jan 3, 2004, 03:42 AM
I am not in a position to give more anymore specific information until Sunday evening. I think I have posted as much as is necessary to clear up some of the wide spread confusion. I will say that I have seen some of the photoshop work (which is very good) but its not even close. They are amazing. Cheers