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cleo
May 19, 2002, 07:20 PM
ok, so i'm just flipping out a bit and thought i'd share this with you all, since we're all so close...

i'm gay (as you all know)... so is my brother... so is one of my cousins... and now her twin sister is on aim telling me how she's fallen in love with another woman!

what are the odds? sheesh.

jelloshotsrule
May 19, 2002, 07:46 PM
hmm, that's interesting.

now i hate to be ignorant, but the only way to learn is to ask people who would know better...

cleo- do you generally think people CHOOSE to be homosexual/bisexual, or that they're born with it, or that it's a product of their upbringing/surroundings, or some of each?

i go to nyu, where a lot of the students are gay, but i haven't had the chance to talk to any of them about this. of course, i don't really talk to anyone, so that's no surprise... haha

Mr. Anderson
May 19, 2002, 07:58 PM
Its the whole nurture vs. nature debate. Tough one to call sometimes, but there has been some indication that sexual preference can be afffected by genetics.

I dated a woman who had 2 brothers (2 out of 3) who were gay, along with a cousin or two and I think an uncle, not sure on that. It seems to me that to call this a coincidence might be turning a blind eye to the truth.

The only problem with that is as genetic manipulation becomes more of a reality, there is nothing from stopping some idiot from playing around with this, which opens up an even bigger debate. Have you ever seen Gattica, rent if you haven't.

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0119177

One other genetic item that is sticking in my head tonight is about an Italian scientist who published a paper back in the early 90s, basically stating the we (humans) should create a human-chimpanzee hybrid to be used as a slave race to do all the dirty jobs. Sounds like fiction, Planet of the Apes, etc., but he was actually serious. I looked on google, but couldn't find reference to it, I'll search again to see if I can find it somewhere else. Definitely a News Of The Weird classic.

jelloshotsrule
May 19, 2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Have you ever seen Gattica, rent if you haven't.


i rented it once but didn't get to see it.

i did read 1984 and brave new world... i get the two mixed up a bit, but they're at least somewhat similar in their discussion of genetics and the future and whatnot...

i'll check into it. there's plenty of movies i should see... i guess the summer's the time to do it.

Mr. Anderson
May 19, 2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


i did read 1984 and brave new world... i get the two mixed up a bit, but they're at least somewhat similar in their discussion of genetics and the future and whatnot...

1984 has big brother and its double plus good! But its more of a social commentary than one based on genetics.

A Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley (sp?) is the Utopian Society that has 3 levels of humans Alphas, Betas, and Gammas. That was a damn good book too, but I haven't read it since High School, over 20 years ago, I'll have to go and get me a copy and reread it.

Another movie in the same vein, not really genetic exactly, is Logan's Run. This is a 70's era scifi movie, pre Star Wars, based on a society where you never grew old, because when you turned 30, you were killed. I guess for population control and such, but all the children were grown in tanks. Haven't seen that one in a while either.

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0074812

cleo
May 19, 2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule

cleo- do you generally think people CHOOSE to be homosexual/bisexual, or that they're born with it, or that it's a product of their upbringing/surroundings, or some of each?


[First, a disclaimer: my sexuality is very, very much (did you know that "very" is the most overused word in the English language? :)) informed by my spirituality and my intellect, and so what I have to say reflects that. There are a hell of a lot of queens out there who knew from the time that they were 4 that they wanted cock and haven't given it a thought since. :)]

I think what it comes down to is that humans are sexual beings, and that sexuality exists on a spectrum. (The classic Kinsey analysis.) I would wager that just about every woman on earth has thought about being with another woman at least once, and men too (although they would probably be less likely to admit it). I think that some people are more open to act on those feelings. I also think that sexuality is not set in stone. I know women who have had fulfilling marriages and children who, after their husband has died/divorced, fall in love with other women, and vice versa. I find it most helpful, instead of applying labels, to just say, "Today I feel like..."

As for me personally, I've found that I am most attracted to people who are "down the middle" in terms of physical appearance and gender roles. I am no more attracted to Britney Spears than I am Tom Cruise. Emotionally and spiritually (and therefore sexually) I tend to connect best with people who are much more ambiguous, and, therefore, more often than not, gay.

That having been said, I think there is definitely choice involved, as there is in anything. I could choose to be with men if I really felt the need to (and have in the past), but that's just not what does it for me. We all make choices on a daily basis about whether we are going to really express our truest selves, and for me, that means honoring my sexuality, different though it might be.

Did that help explain things at all?

cleo
May 19, 2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


1984 has big brother and its double plus good! But its more of a social commentary than one based on genetics.

A Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley (sp?) is the Utopian Society that has 3 levels of humans Alphas, Betas, and Gammas. That was a damn good book too, but I haven't read it since High School, over 20 years ago, I'll have to go and get me a copy and reread it.

Another movie in the same vein, not really genetic exactly, is Logan's Run. This is a 70's era scifi movie, pre Star Wars, based on a society where you never grew old, because when you turned 30, you were killed. I guess for population control and such, but all the children were grown in tanks. Haven't seen that one in a while either.

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0074812

Another good book in this vein is "We" by... some Russian guy. :)

jelloshotsrule
May 19, 2002, 08:50 PM
interesting to get your take on things..

how exactly does spirituality and such come into play? you mentioned it does, but didn't say how...

this might come off bad... but bear with me... do straight girls get as uncomfortable around gay girls as straight guys get around gay guys? and of course, when i ask this, i mean "some" people reacting these ways, clearly not all.

i had a gay suitemate freshman year (very flamboyant, even entered a "diva ball"... he should've won! ha) and because of his personality, his sexuality was always kinda out there, but there wasn't really any weirdness with me or my other suitemates. he was kind of a man-whore though... slept with waaaaay too many people... ahh well.

thanks for the interesting take on these things.

cleo
May 19, 2002, 09:32 PM
No, thank *you* for asking honest questions... you'd be amazed how many people just get creeped out and defensive instead of just looking at sexuality with curiosity and asking the questions to figure it out.

As far as spirituality... I think I've mentioned elsewhere that I'm Buddhist (more on the specifics if you want, just ask). I understand that every person who enters my life is a teacher and every experience is a teacher, too. Sexuality is another opportunity for me to figure out whatever it is that I need to figure out in this life. Part of it has to do with simple desire and lust, which (obviously) are not helpers on the road to enlightenment. That's something that everybody struggles with, which is why proper use of sexuality is included in the Five Precepts. My shifting sexuality has also been a big teacher about the emptiness of ego, which is one of the biggest lessons one can learn. Also, of course, there are issues of self-esteem and craving affection that are wrapped up in sexual relationships. A lot of times people get involved in successive shallow sexual relationships just because they can't bear to just be with themselves. So whenever I feel like going out to a bar and hooking up with some stranger, that's a signal to sit down and say, "ok, what's going on inside here that you're reacting to instead of just sitting with?"

I'm not sure if that answered your question... tell me if it didn't! :)

Macette
May 19, 2002, 09:50 PM
In my lunchbreak from listening to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who is in Melbourne this week, and I discover that MacRumors' Number 1 powerdyke is a Buddhist! I'm not a Buddhist, but my girlfriend is, and we've only been together a little while, and I'm trying to learn what it's all about.

Not a huge adherant of organised religion myself, but the man's message is good, and his presence wonderful. I'm enjoying myself.

We need to start a thread about 'dykes and buddhism (and macs)!'

xx

On the genetics argument, well, Cleo, you've said it the way I would've - so I'm not going to go over it again. I'm just adding my voice to the chorus.

jelloshotsrule
May 19, 2002, 09:58 PM
cleo:

yeah, you basically answered my question.

believe it or not, my interpretation of my religion (catholicism) and yours are very similar. it seems we both see there being a proper, spiritual type use for sex/sexuality... and also we see how sex through lust and such can be bad... not to say that the two are the same or anything, just pointing out how very different belief systems can relate in many ways at the core.

personally i'm one for having sex with one person your entire life.. as per my religious beliefs. so your desires to hit up a bar to hook up doesn't really cross my mind much... ha. i mean, it does, sure, i lust... but i wouldn't do it. it's weird, it just doesn't even occur to me as a possibility. then again, i don't go to bars (i don't drink... how boring eh??? haha).

tell me about the way girls react to you, knowing you're gay. i don't mean your friends or other gay girls. but say, classmates who you don't really "know", but they might know you're gay. i'm not sure how open you are with it, if you wear a rainbow ribbon and such... so i'm not sure how many non-close friends type of people would know you're gay.

word.

cleo
May 19, 2002, 09:59 PM
Shutupshutupshutup! I'm jealous, and quite impressed!

I find the Dalai Lama's teachings a bit harsh - he isn't quite a gentle as Chogyam Trungpa (whose teachings I follow) - but there is no denying that he is an amazing bodhisattva. I would be honored to hear him teach sometime.

Post again to share your experience!

mac15
May 20, 2002, 12:09 AM
I only have one gay in the family
and that my cousin but the rest are straight....I don't have many gay friends

Ensign Paris
May 20, 2002, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by mac15
I only have one gay in the family
and that my cousin but the rest are straight....I don't have many gay friends

I am not gay, the only gay person in my family is a cousin (female) and she is really cool. I don't mind gay people, I have quite a few gay friends and quite a few straight friends.

Ensign

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 08:38 AM
my family is pre-dominately heterosexual...if there are any discrepancies I do not know of them...

on a personal level...in the past I've felt threatened by homosexual men mainly because of my lack of confidence sexually...

of course this is also something that can occur from lack of maturity upon the matter...

now I don't sweat it...it's part of life...and as long as I feel secure within myself...I have nothing to worry about...

but cleo...I do find that very intriguing...I mean seriously....what are the odds?! :confused:

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by eyelikeart
on a personal level...in the past I've felt threatened by homosexual men mainly because of my lack of confidence sexually...

of course this is also something that can occur from lack of maturity upon the matter...


wow, that's a very honest, humble take on your experiences.

i bet most guys would go through something like that, especially when they're young.

then again, some of the most "confident" guys sexually... ie, frat boys always getting in the sack with different girls, are often very ignorant and threatened by homosexuals... go figure

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule

then again, some of the most "confident" guys sexually... ie, frat boys always getting in the sack with different girls, are often very ignorant and threatened by homosexuals... go figure

Some of it might just be ignorance and societal prejuduce. Why feel threatened? Its not like all gay guys are out to get the straight boys, ha (see, laugh for you jello).

One really sad thing I saw about 5 years ago. I was in a country western bar - redneck's gallor. One moron had a t-shrit that had a picture of the Trix Rabbit (breakfast cereal), but instead of saying 'Trix are for kids, silly rabbit', it said 'D**ks are for girls, sillly fa**ot'.

Now I'm not worried or bothered by homosexuality, I have a few gay friends and coworkers. This just pissed me off, not only because he thought it was funny enough to wear out on a Friday night, but that it had actually been printed. Scary. I never said anything, not wanting to start a fight and get knifed or shot by Cletus or Bubba, but I never went back to the bar.

Yep, truly sad.

But on a lighter note. Here in DC there are a few cultural events that the local gay community support and have become fun events for every one. On Tues. Night somewhere in Dupont Circle, they have Drag Queen Bingo, hosted by none other Xavier Bloomingdale and another I can't remember now. But also there is the Drag Race on 17th or 19th, where its a sprint down a couple of blocks, again near Dupont Circle, with all the contestants dressed in their best and wearing high heels. Very entertaining.

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Some of it might just be ignorance and societal prejuduce. Why feel threatened? Its not like all gay guys are out to get the straight boys, ha (see, laugh for you jello).

One really sad thing I saw about 5 years ago. I was in a country western bar - redneck's gallor. One moron had a t-shrit that had a picture of the Trix Rabbit (breakfast cereal), but instead of saying 'Trix are for kids, silly rabbit', it said 'D**ks are for girls, sillly fa**ot'.

But on a lighter note. Here in DC there are a few cultural events that the local gay community support and have become fun events for every one. On Tues. Night somewhere in Dupont Circle, they have Drag Queen Bingo, hosted by none other Xavier Bloomingdale and another I can't remember now. But also there is the Drag Race on 17th or 19th, where its a sprint down a couple of blocks, again near Dupont Circle, with all the contestants dressed in their best and wearing high heels. Very entertaining.

thanks for the laugh... very enthusiastic.

that makes me sick. this was in/near dc? try living out in rural southern PA!!!

yeah, my suitemate freshman year was in a drag competition. it was very entertaining. i didn't much like seeing guys dressed very scantily as girls.... but hey, it was fun.

and obviously, nyc, nyu, lots of gay people. it's alllll good.

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


thanks for the laugh... very enthusiastic.

that makes me sick. this was in/near dc? try living out in rural southern PA!!!


Nope, just right outside the beltway near Alexandria down the street from the Huntington Metro, too close, if you ask me. I would have loved to get him drunk and then drive him in to the city and drop him off in Dupont. He'd get an education, that's for sure.

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 10:07 AM
as a society...people are often scared of things they do not understand...we tend to oppose something if it just doesn't make any sense...or if we cannot validate it...often enough it's easier to hate or shun than to face it...

it also is a characteristic of lacking maturity...the inability to just accept without feeling like your feet are being stepped on...

in most cases, I would venture to say that it is insecurity within a person that would make he/she have a strong, negative opinion than an accepting, positive outlook...

as for my experiences, I've never had a homosexual experience...and I doubt I will ever have one...my hangups came from having men look at me or make their own judgements of me (ie. "he's gay, he just doesn't know it yet"..."he can dress...I mean come on!"...etc...etc..)...

and when I look back now, I realize it was more issues I was having with myself....not necessarily a question of my own sexuality...but being comfortable in general...especially in those types of situations where my masculinity was being challenged...

it's all B.S....just be u...as long as u know where u stand u are fine ;)

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 10:12 AM
true dat eye.

but generally, gay guys DO have better fashion sense! haha

i even remember paulwhannel joking about that somewhere. good times

cleo
May 20, 2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule

personally i'm one for having sex with one person your entire life.. as per my religious beliefs. so your desires to hit up a bar to hook up doesn't really cross my mind much... ha. i mean, it does, sure, i lust... but i wouldn't do it. it's weird, it just doesn't even occur to me as a possibility. then again, i don't go to bars (i don't drink... how boring eh??? haha).

tell me about the way girls react to you, knowing you're gay. i don't mean your friends or other gay girls. but say, classmates who you don't really "know", but they might know you're gay. i'm not sure how open you are with it, if you wear a rainbow ribbon and such... so i'm not sure how many non-close friends type of people would know you're gay.

Heh... I guess I kind of painted myself as a slut, eh? :D Not what I meant. Hmm... I don't drink much (just a good beer on special occasions)... but it's the times when I come home from work and all I can think about is how much I want to drink... those are the LAST times I do drink... instead, I have to sit and think about what the root of that craving is. For me, it's the exact same thing with sex. Although I have had more than one partner, it is something I take extremely seriously and, like I said before, as a teacher.

As far as how people react to me, I've never really had any bad experiences. I'm not much of a flag waver, but it's not something I hide, either. In the larger scheme of my life, my sexuality isn't that huge of a deal to me, and I think people sense that and therefore aren't threatened by it. I do know some girls who claim to be bisexual (although, curiously enough, all they do is talk about and sleep with men) who are all about the rainbows and "we're here, we're queer" bit... they piss off, alienate, and threaten just about everyone, gay and straight.

I think also because of my appearance I "pass" quite easily. I look kind of tomboyish, but I don't really fit any dykey stereotypes. The only times I've experienced verbal harassment is when I'm out with a more stereotypical dykey woman (which is rather often, as I tend to be attracted to butches and ::sigh:: drag kings). Curiously, the people yelling "dyke" and other cruel things are nine times out of ten men. My hypothesis is that most hetero women realize how trapped they are by the traditional gender roles that govern their lives, and they secretly respect lesbians for challenging and breaking out of those roles. However, men are quite threatened by women who refuse to play their game, and thus get violent about it more often.

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by cleo
Heh... I guess I kind of painted myself as a slut, eh? :D Not what I meant. Hmm... I don't drink much (just a good beer on special occasions)... but it's the times when I come home from work and all I can think about is how much I want to drink... those are the LAST times I do drink... instead, I have to sit and think about what the root of that craving is. For me, it's the exact same thing with sex. Although I have had more than one partner, it is something I take extremely seriously and, like I said before, as a teacher.

As far as how people react to me, I've never really had any bad experiences. I'm not much of a flag waver, but it's not something I hide, either. In the larger scheme of my life, my sexuality isn't that huge of a deal to me, and I think people sense that and therefore aren't threatened by it. I do know some girls who claim to be bisexual (although, curiously enough, all they do is talk about and sleep with men) who are all about the rainbows and "we're here, we're queer" bit... they piss off, alienate, and threaten just about everyone, gay and straight.

I think also because of my appearance I "pass" quite easily. I look kind of tomboyish, but I don't really fit any dykey stereotypes. The only times I've experienced verbal harassment is when I'm out with a more stereotypical dykey woman (which is rather often, as I tend to be attracted to butches and ::sigh:: drag kings). Curiously, the people yelling "dyke" and other cruel things are nine times out of ten men. My hypothesis is that most hetero women realize how trapped they are by the traditional gender roles that govern their lives, and they secretly respect lesbians for challenging and breaking out of those roles. However, men are quite threatened by women who refuse to play their game, and thus get violent about it more often.

no, not a slut. that's the weird thing about me... both with drinking and sex. it just doesn't occur to me to go out and hook up. or to come home from work and need a drink. i guess it's odd, but it just isn't an option for me. sure, i've had a drink of wine or whatnot to taste it, but basically have been "straightedge" since i remember... and to me, it just makes sense, spiritually as well as just physically.

my bro has a friend (female) who's "bisexual" and he has voiced his feelings many a time that she's just using it as something to be different and such, much as you described. from what i know, she's been with women, kind of, but mostly guys (i think she's engaged to one now).

as for men... haha. i like your phrasing of the women who "refuse to play their game".... haha. i think that sums it up. oh, and that men think with their..... so that just affects them even more.

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
true dat eye.

but generally, gay guys DO have better fashion sense! haha

i even remember paulwhannel joking about that somewhere. good times

u would have to add on top of that the fact that I am into art...geez...how the hell does this ***** work out that way? :eek: :D

having multiple sexual partners isn't a crime...I'm with cleo on this one...it's a very big deal for me...I haven't slept around just for the hell of it...besides, it's always better when u have an emotional connection with the person... ;)

cleo
May 20, 2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


no, not a slut. that's the weird thing about me... both with drinking and sex. it just doesn't occur to me to go out and hook up. or to come home from work and need a drink. i guess it's odd, but it just isn't an option for me. sure, i've had a drink of wine or whatnot to taste it, but basically have been "straightedge" since i remember... and to me, it just makes sense, spiritually as well as just physically.


Well, then you are quite evolved indeed! :D A big part of Buddhism is about really examining the parts of ourselevs that are "base" or consindered sinful or shameful. A lot of people just supress those parts and then go crazy one day. My path involves coming to terms with them as they come up without judgement. Then, when I finally reach an understanding of their causes and the lesson they have to teach me, I can touch them and let them go.

Anyway, not meant to knock your path at all, just to share a bit of mine. (In fact, I have the greatest respect for Catholicism - I attended a confirmation recently, and the power tapped into during the rituals performed by the bishop was extremely similar to that I have experienced in certain stages of blissful meditation).

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by cleo

A lot of people just supress those parts and then go crazy one day.

I had a girlfriend who would have 'Wild Hair Nights' as she called them. I think that was more of an excuse to go out and get crazy and not deal with the guilt she would feel for loosing a little control. I ended up being the moderating factor in that relationship, but it never lasted, too many wild hairs.

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by cleo
Well, then you are quite evolved indeed! :D A big part of Buddhism is about really examining the parts of ourselevs that are "base" or consindered sinful or shameful. A lot of people just supress those parts and then go crazy one day. My path involves coming to terms with them as they come up without judgement. Then, when I finally reach an understanding of their causes and the lesson they have to teach me, I can touch them and let them go.

Anyway, not meant to knock your path at all, just to share a bit of mine. (In fact, I have the greatest respect for Catholicism - I attended a confirmation recently, and the power tapped into during the rituals performed by the bishop was extremely similar to that I have experienced in certain stages of blissful meditation).

evolved... hmm. i can still be a regular old dumb guy who thinks with his..... sometimes. but i'd like to think it's not as big a deal for me as it is most.... i don't know.

funny thing is, i just spent a minute rereading your post.....trying to find where you were "knocking" my path. i don't see it. so no worries. and, unlike some catholics and fund. christians, i'm quite open to other religions, be they western or eastern... in fact. one of my favorite bands is krishna. and in the lyrics, i see many similarities to my own beliefs, as i did with your talk about buddhism. so it's alllllllll good!

mischief
May 20, 2002, 10:56 AM
Oh yeah, Time Zones........

I've noticed that the more homophobic a guy is the more curious or unsure he is. I've also come to the conclusion that the vast majority of men have NO concern for their looks. This seems to be more an aspect of the epoch than about "natural" fashion sense. The 1500-1850 period proved that ALL men have an inner "fashion-queen".

I've always felt that monogamy was introduced to kep track of inter-family aliegences and as a health rule like not eating pork.

As came up on an earlier thread, it seems that Homo sapiens is an inherently bi-sexual creature with massive built in need for physical intimacy.

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by mischief
I've noticed that the more homophobic a guy is the more curious or unsure he is. I've also come to the conclusion that the vast majority of men have NO concern for their looks.

As came up on an earlier thread, it seems that Homo sapiens is an inherently bi-sexual creature with massive built in need for physical intimacy.

I feel everyone has a curiosity within them...but the question comes into play as to how they treat that curiosity...

do u just leave it alone? test yourself to see? what to do?!

for me...I have no desire to know what it's like...but that does not mean I have not thought about it...not in a lustful, daydream-like manner...but the simple "what if?" card...

and as for men not caring for their looks....there are lines to draw I feel...

1) when I set out for my day...I tend to wear colored t-shirts & whatever pants I can find (clean of course ;))

2) when I am going out at night...dinner, for example...I will make it a point to look nice...it's a good thing to do!

3) in general...I dress for me...but I will ask someone how I look if I am doing something specific (ie. important meeting, formal event, etc..etc..)

all this said...having a good fashion sense I do not correlate with being "gay"...it's cr@p...I think good taste is something many lack...

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by eyelikeart
and as for men not caring for their looks....there are lines to draw I feel...

1) when I set out for my day...I tend to wear colored t-shirts & whatever pants I can find (clean of course ;))

2) when I am going out at night...dinner, for example...I will make it a point to look nice...it's a good thing to do!

3) in general...I dress for me...but I will ask someone how I look if I am doing something specific (ie. important meeting, formal event, etc..etc..)

all this said...having a good fashion sense I do not correlate with being "gay"...it's cr@p...I think good taste is something many lack...

i wear mostly homemade shirts (bought plain with silk screened sayings or pictures on them). with pants. any pants that fit and are comfy. i will wear pants over and over.

yeah, dressing up occasionally is nice. my girlfriend has mad ethat clear to me. ha.

i too dress for me. aand her, sometimes.

i don't think it means you're gay. never meant to say that. just saying more % of gay guys care about their clothes/fashion. blah

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i don't think it means you're gay. never meant to say that. just saying more % of gay guys care about their clothes/fashion. blah

I know u weren't implying it....I just wanted to add my thoughts into it...

so let's see....there's a sense of fashion...art...I prefer a nice glass of vino over a beer anyday...

what else am I missing her for the stereotypes??

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i too dress for me. aand her, sometimes.

i don't think it means you're gay. never meant to say that. just saying more % of gay guys care about their clothes/fashion. blah

That might be somewhat true, but in general I'm happy to put on whatever happens to be clean. If I'm out shopping I'll buy what I like, but I don't go out to browse the clothes stores looking for something, I hunt for clothes. I know what I want before I go and get out of the store as fast as possible.

I do own a tux, which I like to wear when ever I get the chance. Work clothers are pants and shirt, no tie necessary, although I do have a few nice ones I really like, and I'll wear from time to time. But fashion to me isn't important, the old saying 'You can tell type the man he his by his clothes' doesn't always apply today, and especially to me.

cleo
May 20, 2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by eyelikeart


I feel everyone has a curiosity within them...but the question comes into play as to how they treat that curiosity...

do u just leave it alone? test yourself to see? what to do?!

for me...I have no desire to know what it's like...but that does not mean I have not thought about it...not in a lustful, daydream-like manner...but the simple "what if?" card...


I have a good friend who insists we should be called "homoemotionals" rather than "homosexuals." As everyone knows, sex is really about emotion and intimacy (if it's not, you're not doing it right :)). So I think it's more appropriate to think in terms of love and connection... I know quite a few (straight) men who, the actual sex act aside, have more intimate relationships with their male friends than with their female partners. I think this tends to be more true of women, though, and that's why women tend to imagine themselves in an actual same-sex relationship. Not just "what if I touched that random woman" but "what if I had a completely intimate relationship with this person who is my best and truest friend and whom I love deeply". I think men experience that kind of deep friendship, too, but because of homophobia in the society are not encouraged to express it.

Of course, I may be completely off track. :D

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by eyelikeart
I know u weren't implying it....I just wanted to add my thoughts into it...

so let's see....there's a sense of fashion...art...I prefer a nice glass of vino over a beer anyday...

what else am I missing her for the stereotypes??

ahh, i figured. wasn't sure though

well..... are you physically/sexually attracted to men? that's often a sign.... haha

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
That might be somewhat true, but in general I'm happy to put on whatever happens to be clean. If I'm out shopping I'll buy what I like, but I don't go out to browse the clothes stores looking for something, I hunt for clothes. I know what I want before I go and get out of the store as fast as possible.

I do own a tux, which I like to wear when ever I get the chance. Work clothers are pants and shirt, no tie necessary, although I do have a few nice ones I really like, and I'll wear from time to time. But fashion to me isn't important, the old saying 'You can tell type the man he his by his clothes' doesn't always apply today, and especially to me.

yeah, i don't think pants get dirty as fast as the rest, unless it's hot out (sweaty) or doing sports or in the mud or something... i generally know what i want too. at least the particular TYPE of clothing... mostly i just buy pants/shorts, often at salvation army. the t shirts come blank and are made, so that's simple enough.

i don't even own a suit. (none that still fit)

i had to wear my brother's to a formal dance last month.

how cool is that? ha

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
yeah, i don't think pants get dirty as fast as the rest, unless it's hot out (sweaty) or doing sports or in the mud or something...

I always get dirty, can't help it. My job is to walk the dog, she's a mess, running around, jumping up to get the ball or frisbee, I usually have one pair of jeans hanging around I put on when I get home, they last a few days before they get bad enough they need to be washed.

mcrain
May 20, 2002, 11:43 AM
I don't have much to add other than to say to Cleo that I respect your inner strength to accept yourself as a woman and your faith. I grew up in a Lutherin setting (Christian), but discovered early on that there were many people in my own church (not just the bible thumpers) who were absolutly intolerent of other races, religions, sexual preferences, and other choices. For reasons that I couldn't explain at the time, that really bothered me. At around the same time, I began to learn more about my biological parents, and through some research began to understant the Hindu religion.

It's acceptance of others and tolerence really appealed to me, and were not contrary to my Christian beliefs. In fact, Christianity is easily accepted and incorporated into my Hindu beliefs.

So, I consider myself a Hindu Christian (one who accepts others, but happens to be Christian).

Unfortunately, I have a failing. I am absolutely intolerent of others who are intolerent (talk about self-guilt). When I see others acting in racist, sexist, homophobic or any other ist manner, I get really angry, and feel that their behavior is unacceptable, and become intolerent of those people.

Thus, I describe myself as a militant Hindu Christian.

Oh, in College I was hit on by guys more often than girls, so I guess I have the look even if I'm actually not.

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
I always get dirty, can't help it. My job is to walk the dog, she's a mess, running around, jumping up to get the ball or frisbee, I usually have one pair of jeans hanging around I put on when I get home, they last a few days before they get bad enough they need to be washed.

i've gone a week or two with the same pants during the winter. much less in the summer of course.

as long as i don't spill anything and it doesn't raiin too much. ha

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
well..... are you physically/sexually attracted to men? that's often a sign.... haha

hmm....let me think about that one for a minute...

ok....no I'm not...

but thanks for playing...he he he :D

seriously though...I can distinguish whether or not a guy is good looking...but that does not mean I want to jump his bones... :eek: ;)

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by eyelikeart
seriously though...I can distinguish whether or not a guy is good looking...but that does not mean I want to jump his bones... :eek: ;)

nah, i can generally do that too.

hence, i know that i, sadly, am not... ha

cleo
May 20, 2002, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by mcrain

Unfortunately, I have a failing. I am absolutely intolerent of others who are intolerent (talk about self-guilt). When I see others acting in racist, sexist, homophobic or any other ist manner, I get really angry, and feel that their behavior is unacceptable, and become intolerent of those people.



That's something I've struggled with a lot, too. For example, one of my good friends got married to a very conservative Christian man last summer. Before she got married, she was quite progressive, but now she has joined his (creepy, in my opion) church. They're having their share of early-marriage problems - where to live, what to spend money on, who goes to school when and where, etc. The other day she started telling me how she went to some women's retreat and now realizes that she needs to be submissive to her husband, etc. And I'm like, what?! Where is the Maria that I know and love?

But with lots of patient reflection, I have come to accept that, for whatever reason, this is where she is on her path right now, and this is what she needs to learn and grow from. My upset isn't going to help either one of us. As long as the nature of our relationship doesn't become bad (and I am concerned, because her husband is rather homophobic), then somehow we both have something to learn in order to grow in this situation.

voicegy
May 20, 2002, 12:33 PM
Hey sistah! :)

There is a family that I used to hang out with in my childhood and I became friendly with the last three kids. The parents had 6 kids (they were Mormon) and the first three children are heterosexual, and the last three children (2 boys and a girl) are homosexual. How's THAT for gene jumping?!

I know of no one in my family, on either side, that was homosexual except myself. I'm quite comfortable with the popular genetic disposition explanation of sexual orientation (having a somewhat logical and scientific head, it fits nicely around my mind, but then again, I consider myself Christian so go figure!) and have been comfortable overall with my orientation since I became aware of it way back in Jr. high school.

Funny thing is, as I got older, I found more and more of my close friends are heterosexual. I appreciate the company of heterosexual men who are comfortable with themselves the most, and have very deep bonds with some. I have some dear lesbian friends as well, and a lot of heterosexual female friends. (looking around) Hey! I just discovered I hardly know any homosexual men!:confused:

Anyway...nice ta meet'cha, cleo!

cleo
May 20, 2002, 12:38 PM
Welcome to the MRQC! (MacRumors Queer Club... just made that one up, cute eh?)

Staistically there should be 500 of us out there... only 4 are out so far... who's next? :D

DakotaGuy
May 20, 2002, 12:47 PM
I am gay. No big deal really. Just always have been this way. I am a nice preppy attractive 25 yr. old single male any takers? LOL

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by cleo
The other day she started telling me how she went to some women's retreat and now realizes that she needs to be submissive to her husband, etc. And I'm like, what?! Where is the Maria that I know and love?


Oh, that really pisses me off. I do not like it when people are told how to behave and especially when it comes from a 'authority' like the church. I'm attracted to strong women, and I married one. We get along great, treat each other as equals, share repsonsibilities, no submissiveness at all.

Cleo, your beliefs do you good, but would you ever think to step forward as a friend to say something if it gets worse? Its a difficult situation, I know, but sometimes friends have to get a little tough. And since the path is being guided by what seems to be less than model ideals, this influence could end up hurting your relationship. Ooh, did I mention this sort of thing really bothers me?

britboy
May 20, 2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by mcrain
Oh, in College I was hit on by guys more often than girls, so I guess I have the look even if I'm actually not.


You too eh? I've been approached more by men than by women, by far. In fact, i was once followed on the tube in london for around half an hour by this guy; he said i had very sexy arms and hoped i was 'that way inclined'. It was... flattering :p

I've heard the nurture vs nature argument several times. To be honest though, i don't think it matters at all how it comes about. Fact is, some people are homosexual, they are part of society, and we all have to live together. If someone's gay/lesbian, good for them. As long as that person doesn't feel defensive about it, i can have a reasonable conversation with them, and there is mutual respect for differing values, they're ok in my books.

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by britboy
You too eh? I've been approached more by men than by women, by far. In fact, i was once followed on the tube in london for around half an hour by this guy

Now that's something that's never happened to me. Don't know how I would handle it, guess it would make a difference if I was alone or with friends. I'd just hope that no matter what happened I'd be tactful in my response.

cleo
May 20, 2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


Cleo, your beliefs do you good, but would you ever think to step forward as a friend to say something if it gets worse?

I've already mentioned to her, as lovingly as possible, that I am concerned about the path she is choosing. She didn't take it very well... told me she needed to share her testimony with me, yadda yadda. The husband is making some very immature and selfish decisions, ut she seems blind to it, almost willfully. She says that when it they both die, he (as the husband) will be the one to have to answer for the family, so she just has to have faith that he is doing the right thing.

Hello?!?!

I'm not sure anything I could say would help her see the danger here. It's like she's almost brainwashed or something. Or at least, devoted to the point of lacking the ability to grasp reality.

That's what I like about Buddhism - you can believe in deities if you wish, but above all there is the understanding that we have minds for a reason!

britboy
May 20, 2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


Now that's something that's never happened to me. Don't know how I would handle it, guess it would make a difference if I was alone or with friends. I'd just hope that no matter what happened I'd be tactful in my response.

It wasn't any big deal fortunately. I just thanked him for the compliment, informed him that i was engaged to ( :eek: ) a female, and wasn't interested in trying out the other options. He was cool about it, and we actually had a decent chat for a while before going our sepperate ways again. By following me he had made himself late for a business meeting :rolleyes: :p

cleo
May 20, 2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by britboy


I've heard the nurture vs nature argument several times. To be honest though, i don't think it matters at all how it comes about. Fact is, some people are homosexual, they are part of society, and we all have to live together. If someone's gay/lesbian, good for them. As long as that person doesn't feel defensive about it, i can have a reasonable conversation with them, and there is mutual respect for differing values, they're ok in my books.

Spot on. I should have mentioned this in my first response to jelloshots. A lot of activists want to relate sexuality to race in legal terms, which I just think is hogwash. It shouldn't be like, "I was born this way, don't hate me" - it should be like, "Here's a person that I love - ***** the whys and hows"

You know?

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by cleo
A lot of activists want to relate sexuality to race in legal terms, which I just think is hogwash. It shouldn't be like, "I was born this way, don't hate me" - it should be like, "Here's a person that I love - ***** the whys and hows"

You know?

Totally believe that, there is no reason we have to behave a certain way between individuals based on gender. Its silly, but its a social thing, something that has been handed down through generations. Look at the Roman's, they didn't have such problems, it was mostly Christianity and other religions that layed down laws that we live with today.

That whole thing with your friend is sad, the 'retreat' was obviously a male run seminar to get the woman behind their men. As for brainwashing, it sounds more like her faith is getting in the way of her personality. If she loves this man so much and is willing to do what ever is necessary to keep the relationship smooth, she's missing the fact that if she doesn't talk and communicate the problems but just accepts them as something she has to deal with (which is where it will lead if it already hasn't gotten there), she will not be happy. And her husband will continue to use this 'power' to further entrench the subservient behavior. Not good. But it does lend some sense of structure that maybe she thinks she needs. Oh well, good luck.

mcrain
May 20, 2002, 02:32 PM
Masochist, "Hurt me."
Sadist, "No."

cleo
May 20, 2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by mcrain
Masochist, "Hurt me."
Sadist, "No."

LOL. That's about the funniest thing I've heard all day. :D

(PS - look who's a Demi-Goddess :p)
(PS2 - going back to drool over Photoshop 7 now...) :D

britboy
May 20, 2002, 02:40 PM
I love the new title Cleo! That made me laugh.

Well done for joining the better group here at macrumors :p

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by cleo


(PS - look who's a Demi-Goddess :p)

That is very cool. Nice touch by arn, and congrats on joining the old boys club!:D

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by cleo

(PS - look who's a Demi-Goddess :p)

very...very nice cleo!! :D

I'm glad arn's been able to sell more mugs...

now if we can only get inside jefhatfield's head... :eek: ;)

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by cleo
Spot on. I should have mentioned this in my first response to jelloshots. A lot of activists want to relate sexuality to race in legal terms, which I just think is hogwash. It shouldn't be like, "I was born this way, don't hate me" - it should be like, "Here's a person that I love - ***** the whys and hows"

You know?

i'm sure you realize, but just wanted to make sure you know that i personally don't care much if it's choice or nature or whatever, but was just curious what your take on it was, not being gay myself.

straight up.

and yeah, being a christian myself, people like your friend's husband give folks like myself a bad name.... kick his ass!

cleo
May 20, 2002, 06:09 PM
(Not to piss arn off, but I did just give him $20, so I'm going to go for it...) The "Goddess" bit was actually my idea... :D

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 06:13 PM
at least u did something...

but maybe u should not broadcast it though?

just a thought....u never really know who's feeling postal today...he he he ;)

cleo
May 20, 2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by eyelikeart
at least u did something...

but maybe u should broadcast it though?

just a thought....u never really know who's feeling postal today...he he he ;)

eh? not broadcast it, you mean? :confused:

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by cleo


eh? not broadcast it, you mean? :confused:

i was confused after reading his response to you... i just figured "hey, it's to her... i bet she'll understand it". leave it to eye to confuse everyone..

he's in such a posting frenzy to keep duke at bay that he doesn't even read what he types anymore.... ha

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by cleo


eh? not broadcast it, you mean? :confused:

ha ha ha.... :D

ok....touch...

it's been a long day...and I'm sick... ;)

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


i was confused after reading his response to you... i just figured "hey, it's to her... i bet she'll understand it". leave it to eye to confuse everyone..

he's in such a posting frenzy to keep duke at bay that he doesn't even read what he types anymore.... ha

ok ok ok...I fixed it!!!!

are u guys happy now?! :eek: ;) :p

cleo
May 20, 2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by eyelikeart


ok ok ok...I fixed it!!!!

are u guys happy now?! :eek: ;) :p

LOL. Quite. :D

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by eyelikeart


ok ok ok...I fixed it!!!!

are u guys happy now?! :eek: ;) :p

ehh... i guess.

how'd you the the accented e in touche? i can't do it.... e e they keep coming up normal!!!

King Cobra
May 20, 2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
how'd you the the accented e in touche? i can't do it.... e e they keep coming up normal!!!

Hit option-e, release both buttons, then e.

Done!
__________________

Any time is a great time for iPod.
Working on avatar and new signature...
Planning to retire the current signature.

britboy
May 20, 2002, 06:42 PM
u g whl g f stg hhs! :D :D :D

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra


Hit option-e, release both buttons, then e.

Done!


right, i'm not that new to computers and typing.

it is not working for me in posts. it works in other apps. it even works in chimera in the address bar. but not while posting.

weird. i'll live. just thought there was something specific i need to do on here.

King Cobra
May 20, 2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by britboy
u g whl g f stg hhs! :D :D :D

Look at all that shi.
I wonder what the **** some people do with such smbols like ha? :)

This is probably my first honest opinion about gay/homo/whatever. I think that it is basically genetic. It is almost like transexuals. Now I won't get too in depth, but I am pretty sure that it is probably a genetic disorder. Although many people try to argue this, but I think those people are arguing for being straight, although they try to hide it.
__________________

This has been another 2 cents.

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra

Now I won't get too in depth, but I am pretty sure that it is probably a genetic disorder.

you might want to reword that....

disorder?

hmm.... that's a thin wire to tread...

King Cobra
May 20, 2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule

you might want to reword that....

disorder?

hmm.... that's a thin wire to tread...

I am not sure what is not to understand...I am saying that while an individual was growing up from prematurity there may have been a DNA mutation, causing an individual to lack certain genes/substances. I am not sure if that is what happens, but that is what I think.

Oh, and I am sure Arn and Blakespot are going to have my skin on a silver platter for that "" word. Before you guys do, it was only comedy. I will continue to use "F" in place of that word. And ***** is something I can also work on... :)
__________________

Any time is a great time for iPod.
Working on avatar and new signature...
Planning to retire current signature.

cleo
May 20, 2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra


I am not sure what is not to understand...I am saying that while an individual was growing up from prematurity there may have been a DNA mutation, causing an individual to lack certain genes/substances. I am not sure if that is what happens, but that is what I think.

Well, "disorder" means that there is a norm, and that people of different sexualities are somehow broken or not quite right. While that may be true in biological terms (although, as we know, science is far from objective), it's dangerous because it all too easily gets translated into social terms. (Thus, the earlier posts in this thread to Gattica, et al.) Hitler likely thought that Jews had "genetic disorders," etc.

DakotaGuy
May 20, 2002, 08:19 PM
Hell I don't know why I am gay...I just am. Never had any attraction for women. I have the same feelings and emotions for another man that a straight man would have for a women or vise versa. It might be genes, I don't know, but I don't or have never chosen to be this way. It is just me.

I am not all dramatic or limp wristed like most people portray gay men as. I will admit I have met some real limp wristers out there, but not all are. I was born and raised on a farm with a normal family normal brother and sister, both of which are married and raising their own family. I have more straight male friends then I do gay friends. They just seem to be a better friend. I have a few gay friends that I love as well, but they are a different type of friend.

I am lonely quite a bit. It is hard to find any good gay dudes to date where I live. Most are too old for me or not what I am looking for. Yeah I get around a little...but hey...what straight dude that is single never did that???LOL

I am glad to see the Mac users are very accepting of this. I think Cleo was brave for telling us this. She seems like a nice lady, unlike all the bad things I hear about lesbians. Cleo made a statement that she did not really know any gay men...the reason for this is most gay men are scared of lesbians...LOL Please don't take offense, but that is just the way we are. Of course I think you are cool Cleo so it is all good....

Like I said I am 25, attractive, and available...but hey we don't want Macrumors to turn into the personals board so I will stop with that. lol Catch you all later....

rainman::|:|
May 20, 2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
This is probably my first honest opinion about gay/homo/whatever. I think that it is basically genetic. It is almost like transexuals. Now I won't get too in depth, but I am pretty sure that it is probably a genetic disorder. Although many people try to argue this, but I think those people are arguing for being straight, although they try to hide it.

I haven't spoken on this thread yet, been busy the past couple of days... Of everything said here, yours is closest to my own opinion. i'll bet no one expected that! :) I actually think homosexuality is genetic, almost purely, and that it probably is a deviation from the normal genome... I'd call it less of a 'disorder' and more 'population control'. I think it's mother nature's way of keeping the 6.2 billion people on Earth from breeding to death. Obviously, physically, humans are meant to mate male-female, with homosexuals lacking obvious means of sexual compatability. I won't get terribly graphic here, but you can imagine. That's not to say that homosexuality is simply about sex, but we now have a starting ground. Eventually something triggered gay genes, and they follow obvious dominant-recessive patterns... I'll get into my family tree in a bit.

I'm a firm believer that although some people can 'go both ways', or don't consider themselves one or the other, we all have a specific sexual preference that's determined in the most basic parts of the brain, not by 'choice'. Two reasons for this: 1. Most people that consider themselves bisexual will tell you that they they can have sex with both genders, but can only really fall in love with one. That's just my experience, not a poll or anything, so i could be wrong... But it also goes into my spirituality, my thoughts being that people have one true soul-mate, and that their sexual orientation simply leads them to that person. The other reason, 2, is simple: if you tell people it's a choice, it's going to prolong the gay-rights movement indefinitely... After all, why should America, and moreso the world, change their laws to allow gay marriage, when it's easier to tell the gays to choose to be straight? I hope this makes sense... Ideally, people should be allowed to love whomever they want, but we don't live in an ideal world. The anti-gay people need to be offered proof that we *need* to be able to marry, it's not just some anti-social outlandish choice we make to be different and make a point. Personally, i'm 100% gay, and although that *could* change, i have a sneaking suspicion that it won't. I'm 19 and have known i was gay since age 5. My life's mission is to be able to marry my partner before i die. Legally and wholly.

Cleo, you said that you don't like people comparing it to race. Why not? i'm curious on your thoughts. Personally, I think it's very comparable to the civil-rights movement... Obviously gay people weren't enslaved by a whole country, but we *were* slaughtered by the thousands in the holocaust... That's where the pink triangle came from... Gays were marked with it, just like jews were marked by the Star of David. We were then considered a genetic 'imperfection' that could be eliminated. Unfortunately, almost no one notes the gay role in the holocaust... Anyway, back to the point. African-American (i'm being unusually PC tonight) people were denied basic rights, as gay people are today. I think the biggest difference is that gay people can hide it, and do when threatened, and so we have no dire need to stand up and unify. That's why there is no gay Martin Luther King, Jr.

I think that gay people are, as a whole, too promiscuous. Many factors contribute to this, most notably one: Society breeds the value of marriage into heterosexuals... They may go through a period of "fun" where they date, sleep around, etc. But most marry soon after, and settle down. Gay people not only lack the value of marriage, but the basic right to marriage itself... So they spend their whole lives in this "fun" period. Note that this is a rough generalization, and certainly not reflective of all gay people. I'm going to get flamed for this post, but i don't have time or energy to explain things in PC terms, so it'll have to do.

My mother's family has two gays among my grandmother's many siblings... None on the next generation, but over half of my cousins (a considerable number) have come out now... One or two have gone back "in the closet", having probably come out because they were confused or going along with the crowd. But the more families you look at like this, the more obvious it is that it's something in the human genome. I have a few ideas about how the gene moves in families, but that's another post entirely.

Okay, sorry about the length and half-assed structure of this post, but it got my opinions out there. One thing tho... Since i'm the first gay guy to come out here (to my knowledge) WHY AM I NOT the #1 PowerFag????? dammit, people. *z-snaps* hehehe...

:)
pnw

rainman::|:|
May 20, 2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Hell I don't know why I am gay...I just am. Never had any attraction for women. I have the same feelings and emotions for another man that a straight man would have for a women or vise versa. It might be genes, I don't know, but I don't or have never chosen to be this way. It is just me.

I had to wonder once or twice... Your nickname, plus what you named your computers... hehehe... Anyway, welcome to the MR Gay Community!!

I wish i could help you out on the loneliness thing... I went through my fair share of this myself... but i'm taken, sorry. You sound like a really nice, intelligent (cute) guy, so i'm sure you won't be single long!
:)

*does the secret gay handshake with Abercrombieboy*
;)
pnw

Macette
May 20, 2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
I am glad to see the Mac users are very accepting of this. I think Cleo was brave for telling us this. She seems like a nice lady, unlike all the bad things I hear about lesbians. Cleo made a statement that she did not really know any gay men...the reason for this is most gay men are scared of lesbians...LOL Please don't take offense, but that is just the way we are. Of course I think you are cool Cleo so it is all good....

I don't think MOST gay men are scared of lesbians- but some do seem to be. I'm lucky to live in Melbourne where, at least in the city and inner burbs, being a lesbian or gay man is fairly acceptable. That means that our community is very 'communal', and we all know each other and get along. (I mean, we don't ALL know and love EVERYONE, but you know what I mean..) My girlf and I were having a discussion recently about how some gay men are really good about lesbians and really get along well with them and have lesbians in their friendship circles, and some gay men are friendly with single straight women and don't really seem to respond well to lesbians.

I live with a gay man and a straight woman who is considering trying her luck with women. My gay male housemate has never even kissed a woman. My girlfriend is a 38 year old woman (15 years older than I am!) who has never been with a woman before, but seems to be enjoying herself. I think my nineteen year old brother is potentially gay (he likes fashion hahahaha). We don't have any cousins or anything, so can't test the genetic thing. Cleo's comment about a 'scale' - where some people are all gay, some people are totally straight and the rest of us fall somewhere in between is really accurate. I don't think there's a gay gene - I think a combination of genetic and circumstantial factors is a more reasonable way to understand 'why' some people are gay and some not.

Ooh, gotta go - back to see His Holiness teach more on 'The Path to Englightenment'.

xx

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by paulwhannel
I had to wonder once or twice... Your nickname, plus what you named your computers... hehehe... Anyway, welcome to the MR Gay Community!!

I wish i could help you out on the loneliness thing... I went through my fair share of this myself... but i'm taken, sorry. You sound like a really nice, intelligent (cute) guy, so i'm sure you won't be single long!
:)
pnw

i'm sure you and abercrombie realize this, but i want you both to know... not only gay people get lonely and have a hard time finding the right person. of course, there are a smaller number of gay folks so i'm sure it's tougher...

but don't feel alone in your aloneness! hehe.

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by cleo
Well, "disorder" means that there is a norm, and that people of different sexualities are somehow broken or not quite right. While that may be true in biological terms (although, as we know, science is far from objective), it's dangerous because it all too easily gets translated into social terms. (Thus, the earlier posts in this thread to Gattica, et al.) Hitler likely thought that Jews had "genetic disorders," etc.

that's what i was getting at.

he didn't mean that i know, but sometimes one has to be careful..

i have a genetic disorder that is i never do the work i have to do... weird eh

rainman::|:|
May 20, 2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


i'm sure you and abercrombie realize this, but i want you both to know... not only gay people get lonely and have a hard time finding the right person. of course, there are a smaller number of gay folks so i'm sure it's tougher...

but don't feel alone in your aloneness! hehe.

That's very true... sorry to exclude :) In my own experience, tho, finding a decent gay guy is pretty damn hard... so many want the run-around... i got lucky and found a perfect one, but then i'm just a lucky guy. Not that lucky people aren't lonely, as we know from Britney's wonderful musings (dripping sarcasm) hehe...

:)
pnw

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by paulwhannel
That's very true... sorry to exclude :) In my own experience, tho, finding a decent gay guy is pretty damn hard... so many want the run-around... i got lucky and found a perfect one, but then i'm just a lucky guy. Not that lucky people aren't lonely, as we know from Britney's wonderful musings (dripping sarcasm) hehe...


she's not that innocent!!!!

yeah, a decent girl is hard to find too, believe me. i too am lucky, and found a great one. but alas, my brother, who truly deserves a great girl, and would treat her right, has no luck... i had no luck til a couple years ago.... it's tough de temps en temps

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
yeah, a decent girl is hard to find too

That's for sure. I just got married last year at the ripe age of 37, and that was marriage #1, don't plan on anymore either. I was very lucky.

Meeting people is a tough one. I've never done the bar pickup, most of the women I've met have been through activities and friends. But I also know that I was not even remotely ready for marriage until my mid 30s. I look and see some couples getting married in their early 20s and I just cringe, I was so clueless about everything at that age.

jelloshotsrule
May 20, 2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
That's for sure. I just got married last year at the ripe age of 37, and that was marriage #1, don't plan on anymore either. I was very lucky.

Meeting people is a tough one. I've never done the bar pickup, most of the women I've met have been through activities and friends. But I also know that I was not even remotely ready for marriage until my mid 30s. I look and see some couples getting married in their early 20s and I just cringe, I was so clueless about everything at that age.

well, good on ya then! i hope it's successful.

i don't plan on waiting til i'm mid 30s though. i mean, this girl is right. we're low 20s. after a few years, when things are stable and we're more certain of things, i'll be happy to take the plunge with her.

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


well, good on ya then! i hope it's successful.

i don't plan on waiting til i'm mid 30s though. i mean, this girl is right. we're low 20s. after a few years, when things are stable and we're more certain of things, i'll be happy to take the plunge with her.

I was planning on being married by the time I hit 30...

but...:eek:

Mr. Anderson
May 20, 2002, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by eyelikeart


I was planning on being married by the time I hit 30...

but...:eek:

The one thing I can tell you is don't plan on anything and don't give yourself a date where you have to have been married by or had a child by. All that is crap. You'll do it when it happens. By putting a goal or date to the event, you're only adding stress to a situation that is already laden with more stress than you need.

Sure, if you asked me when I was 22 what my life would be like at 37, I'd say married with kids. Well, I just got married and the kids are going to have to wait. Its weird the way things work out, but I had almost given up hope of ever finding someone, and then one day, *WHAM*

We ended up buying a house together before we were even engaged - against the advice of almost all of our friends and family.

eyelikeart
May 20, 2002, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


The one thing I can tell you is don't plan on anything and don't give yourself a date where you have to have been married by or had a child by. All that is crap. You'll do it when it happens. By putting a goal or date to the event, you're only adding stress to a situation that is already laden with more stress than you need.

I hear that...from the begining of the relationship we thought we had found our futures within each other...but as most will say (and have said) not to put all of your eggs in one basket...be patient....

so I've learned...I am damned glad things didn't progress any further than they did though...u could imagine the hell I'd have gone through...ugh :o

I suppose it also goes with not putting a label on something...that just gives it expectations to have to live up to...that would explain why there are so many people who have fear of commitment...

mymemory
May 20, 2002, 10:44 PM
Hey, can we make another thread about this again that I got late?

I better start another treat.

Backtothemac
May 20, 2002, 11:33 PM
Man, did I join this one late or what? I did not bother to read through every post because I would be up till 6 tomorrow morning. I do think that there could possibly be a tie between homosexuality and genetics. I do not, however, hope that they ever prove that. The reason is that Dr's will start to screw around with it like they are now with baby's eye color etc. People are people. It doesn't matter who they sleep with. A person should be judge on their merits, not skin tone, sexual preference, age, etc.

Personally, I think that FDR had it wrong. The biggest fear is not fear itself. The biggest fear is the unknown. Thank God, today, people can be proud of who they are without fear of repercussion. I have family members that are Gay, and have regrettfully lost some, however they were the most amazing people I have ever know next to my wife and daughter.

Kudos to Macette, Paul, and Cleo for having the self pride to not let their sexuality define them, but speaking who they are. If one person who reads this thread thinks a little different, then the world will be a better place.

I may be republican, but I am human first.

Macette
May 20, 2002, 11:45 PM
BTTM - you are a good person. it's good to know that not all pro-gun, pro-life, pro-captial punishment republicans are anti-gay...

:D

it means you're still thinking.

britboy
May 21, 2002, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
I look and see some couples getting married in their early 20s and I just cringe, I was so clueless about everything at that age.


That would be me ;)

I'll be getting married at the grand old age of 22 :rolleyes:. Hope you're not cringing too badly there :)

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by britboy

That would be me ;)

I'll be getting married at the grand old age of 22 :rolleyes:. Hope you're not cringing too badly there :)

No, I'm not talking about them, I was saying about me, personally, at 22, it would have been a huge mess. Not everyone is the same, obviously, and I know several couples who have been married in their early 20's and have been married happily for years.

I wish you all the best, when's the wedding?

eyelikeart
May 21, 2002, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Macette
BTTM - you are a good person. it's good to know that not all pro-gun, pro-life, pro-captial punishment republicans are anti-gay...

:D

it means you're still thinking.


I think there are a lot of us here who can fit into the "non-judgemental" category...

I cannot say enough how sad it is that so many people are closed-minded in the world...

which is why I always try to keep an open-mind to everything...I do have my reservations upon certain subjects...but overall...being open-minded & positive is something everyone should strive for... :D

britboy
May 21, 2002, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet


No, I'm not talking about them, I was saying about me, personally, at 22, it would have been a huge mess. Not everyone is the same, obviously, and I know several couples who have been married in their early 20's and have been married happily for years.

I wish you all the best, when's the wedding?


I sure hope we'll follow more along the lines of those who remain happily married. We've been friends since as long as i can remember (i have photos of us together at the age of 6 months/2 years!), so it's kind of almost like we were destined for it, if you believe in that.

We've got everything planned for december 18th, this year. Probably spending our honeymoon in the finnish lapland.

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by britboy

I sure hope we'll follow more along the lines of those who remain happily married. We've been friends since as long as i can remember (i have photos of us together at the age of 6 months/2 years!), so it's kind of almost like we were destined for it, if you believe in that.

We've got everything planned for december 18th, this year. Probably spending our honeymoon in the finnish lapland.

Wow, now that is amazing that you've known each other for that long, congrats!

Honeymoon, in December, in Finland? How ever will you keep warm?;)

eyelikeart
May 21, 2002, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet


Wow, now that is amazing that you've known each other for that long, congrats!

I think that's incredible...seems more like something u would see in a movie than in real life...

sort of reminds me of how the story could have ended in the movie "My Girl"...

when I was very young I had a best friend type...this girl who used to live down the street from me...the friendship seized to exist after on particular incident...on my part....ha ha ha...
:eek:

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 09:31 AM
i want to go to australia for my honeymoon....

then i heard it's expensive as crap. and well, i also heard the groom pays for the honeymoon.... this groom being a struggling artist, i don't see such a trip happening.

but her mom is a travel agent so maybe she could swing something good...

mcrain
May 21, 2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by the great Dukestreet
I look and see some couples getting married in their early 20s and I just cringe, I was so clueless about everything at that age.

Originally posted by britboy
That would be me ;)

I'll be getting married at the grand old age of 22 :rolleyes:. Hope you're not cringing too badly there :)

Hmmm, I met my wife when I was 19 and she was 15. We dated/got engaged. We married when she was 18, I was 22. We've been married for 8 years, I became a lawyer, she became a doctor, and now we're considering kids.

Maybe we were too young, but I doubt it. It just worked for us. We just knew.

britboy
May 21, 2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by eyelikeart


I think that's incredible...seems more like something u would see in a movie than in real life...

sort of reminds me of how the story could have ended in the movie "My Girl"...

sometimes reality is stranger than fiction...

'My Girl' was a good film, but the ending was rather sad. My girl certaintly isn't going to be left like that, if i can have anything to do with it....

Jello~ when do you plan to get married?

eyelikeart
May 21, 2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by mcrain
Maybe we were too young, but I doubt it. It just worked for us. We just knew.

that's great mcrain!! :D

I felt the same way when I had met Nicole...however, it just was not meant to work out...so I keep my head up and am again in that search....while taking care of myself in the meantime ;)

but anyway...that's so wonderful how things are working out for u man...again I have to say that u must be so thrilled...he he he :D

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by britboy

Jello~ when do you plan to get married?

no time soon per se.

she just graduated and i graduate next year.

it kinda all depends how the careers fall into place. she's into business with a possible future in law as wel... ie, business law. white collar crime and inside trading interests her...

i am a .... film major. aspiring 3d effects/animator... which is not exactly a right out of school success story usually. so if she can get a good job in nyc, and i can try to find one myself in that area, we should be ok in not too long... a couple years though.

let's just hope flights to australia have come down a lot. haha

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule

let's just hope flights to australia have come down a lot. haha

Go to Fiji, you saw my pics, right? Its really cheap, nice and warm, with a little culture and lots to do. I've been twice, trust me on this one.

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet


Go to Fiji, you saw my pics, right? Its really cheap, nice and warm, with a little culture and lots to do. I've been twice, trust me on this one.

i don't doubt you.

it's just that australia is very much a personal thing of mine.

i've liked the country for very long, despite oft joking about its origins... haha.

favorite tennis player is rafter, i like the stricter gun laws thing they did. i just really like the country and want to see it firsthand.

i guess it might be reasonable to hit up fiji for the honeymoon and then australia down the line some...

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i guess it might be reasonable to hit up fiji for the honeymoon and then australia down the line some...

You'll have to talk to beej when he gets back from his trip to Fiji, actually I'm really interested in seeing some of his pics too, see if I recognize anything. Ooh, I'll have to tell him about some of the restaurants in Sigatoka....

Its amazing how many Aussies are actually in Fiji, its very close for them, sort of like our Carribean. I almost considered trying to get a job there and stay for a year or too, it was that cool. And it had the best Indian food I ever had, mm, those Curry Houses in Nadi, man, I still drool.

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 10:35 AM
so how much does it cost to go to fiji? ballpark figures...

i heard just the ticket from la to australia (not including from east coast to la) is like 1200+... which to me, is a lot...

word

dunnr
May 21, 2002, 10:37 AM
It only means that ya'll have the same genetic defect.:D

eyelikeart
May 21, 2002, 11:04 AM
I've always pictured myself either in the Caribbean somewhere...

either that or spending a month or so in Europe...

Fiji...for some reason...keeps coming up in conversations around me lately though...

maybe it's a sign?? ;)

agreenster
May 21, 2002, 11:43 AM
I know this thread is almost dead, but I wanted to throw my change into the pot.

I have to agree that every person one time or another has thought of being with the same sex. That is very true. But to be honest, I bet every person, at one time or another has though about putting a bullet through someone elses head, robbing a bank, or cheating on their wife/husband. What you then DO because of those thoughts is entirely different.

Look, Im not a Bible beater and Im not a super-conservative. But I have to admit when it comes to sexuality, it needs to be a thing shared by two people who are committed to loving each other, and each other only in a heterosexual relationship. And I also feel homosexuality is something learned, taught, or chosen, not genetically passed down. It is entirely possible an entire family could be gay, but more than likely its becasue of their upbringing, not genetics.

And people have their preferences. (good and bad, right and wrong) Some people like a long-legged brunettes, and some people like 7 year old boys. Just because you have a strong preference for one or the other, it doesnt mean that you should pursue that preference. I mean, I have a VERY strong desire to walk into a Porsche dealership and rip off a brand new car. But do I? No. The same principle should apply to homosexuality. There nothing wrong with me wanting a Porsche, just like there is nothing wrong with me being satisfied sexually. But the means in which you get sex is where the problem lays. (no pun intended)

I feel every human has an obligation to their fellow man, society, and nature. In order for our world to be physically, emotionally, mentally, culturally, socially, and even spiritually harmonious, balance needs to take place. (I think everyone could agree with that) It is my feeling that homosexuality can throw that harmony out of balance. This breaks the ties between man and woman, hinders the procreation of our people, and causes more segragation than unity. Women have fewer choices to find men who will take care of them (in a marriage relationship) because they are too busy finding another man, and men only become more sexually driven when they hear about two women lesbian lovers. Women complain day and night about how horrible men's sexual practices are, yet the more twisted our sexual acceptance becomes, the more and more they begin acting on it.

Our country has so many social problems, and I believe that it is because of the breakdown of the family. I dont believe that a family has to be the cliche either, but I mean that there is simply something special about a mother and a father raising children, that two dads or two moms simply cant replace.

I know homosexual couples really love each other, but you know what? I love my best friend. He has always been there for me, and is as close as a brother. But it is wrong to have sex with him. That is only something one should share with a spouse. Its the ultimte in intimacy.

I dont know guys. Murder is wrong because it destroys life. Molesting is wrong because it harms children. Robbing is wrong because it violates anothers right to property. Why is it so much harder to accept the fact that homosexuality is wrong because it disrupts the natural flow of creation and violates the basic laws of nature?

I guess another way to put is like this:

If everyone was a murderer, and killing ran rampant, humanity would cease to exist.
If everyone looted and pillaged everyone else, and ransaked their neighbor, humanity could cease to exist.
If everyone molested their children and abused their wives, society would breakdown and chaos would ensue.

If everyone became homosexual, humanity would die in one generation.

Please dont hate me for posting this. This is simply my opinion. I think one of hardest parts in dealing with homosexuals is that they are so likable. Its easy to hate a murderer, because you can visualize what they did, and see the repercussions of their actions immediately. But its hard to see the repercussions of homosexuality becasue they are so vast and general and take a long time to come about.

Sure, no one is perfect, especially myself. I make mistakes. But homosexuality is a deliberate choice to live a lifestyle that is destructive. I believe the research will show one day that a lot of the problems of the future will relate to the sexual/relationship/family breakdown of this era. I only hope I am wrong.

britboy
May 21, 2002, 11:54 AM
That's quite a bold statement to make agreenster. You basically believe that people should repress their feelings, and live a lie? Just a thought: in the bible, it says that people will be judged by their acts, as well as their thoughts. So, whether someone accepts their homosexual feelings or fights against them it makes no difference; their true desire is still the same.

BTW: Happy Birthday!

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
so how much does it cost to go to fiji? ballpark figures...

i heard just the ticket from la to australia (not including from east coast to la) is like 1200+... which to me, is a lot...

word

Ok, we bought a package deal, 1 week in Fiji, all inclusive resort, airfare, etc. $1100 a piece. That's dirt cheap, you go anywhere that nice, even to the Carribean its going to cost you more. Look on line for deals, but I imagine you're not going to be travelling there any time soon.

agreenster
May 21, 2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Look at the Roman's, they didn't have such problems, it was mostly Christianity and other religions that layed down laws that we live with today.

Be careful though, many historians agree that there was a 50 or so year surge of homosexuality in Rome immediately preceeding their fall.

No disrespect intended Duke, I aint got nothin but love for ya ( no, not THAT kind)

;)

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet


Ok, we bought a package deal, 1 week in Fiji, all inclusive resort, airfare, etc. $1100 a piece. That's dirt cheap, you go anywhere that nice, even to the Carribean its going to cost you more. Look on line for deals, but I imagine you're not going to be travelling there any time soon.

haha. got that right. not for a few years. but yeah, that's cheap. less than one ticket to australia would probably be. her mom's a travel agent so she could probably get us some deals. ideally... we've got time.

agreenster
May 21, 2002, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by britboy
That's quite a bold statement to make agreenster. You basically believe that people should repress their feelings, and live a lie? Just a thought: in the bible, it says that people will be judged by their acts, as well as their thoughts. So, whether someone accepts their homosexual feelings or fights against them it makes no difference; their true desire is still the same.

BTW: Happy Birthday!

Yes, I do believe that one of the respnsibilities of humans is to deny their lusts and urges. Im certainly not very religious, but I do know that a LOT of people think and do horrible things. I think people are generally greedy and selfish. (even babies exhibit this trait) So, we should restrict ourselves from acting on our lusts.

As far as the Bible goes, I took a religion class once and I basically dont believe much of what the Bible says. But thats a WHOLE different subject! :)

BTW: How'd you know it was my birthday??

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 12:02 PM
bold indeed. i don't agree fully, but i respect your opinion. it's surprising you were the first to have such a view... i mean, there are plenty of people who feel that way, so i figured there would have been one already.

i totally agree with you that sex is for one partner, ideally via marriage.

but hearing cleo (maybe macette or paul..., i forget), i realized that maybe not allowing marriage for gay folks is what could lead to the stereotype of promiscuity. i know that stereotype can be true, but it can also be false.... and as they said, straight folks (most) go through their "fun" stage, then settle down. if this were an option for gay people, maybe they woudl do the same, but it's not..

just so you know where i'm coming from... i'm catholic, believe in abstinence and all that... but in general, i believe that people should be accepted for who they are. so that's all good. wooooooord up.

agreenster
May 21, 2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


Ok, we bought a package deal, 1 week in Fiji, all inclusive resort, airfare, etc. $1100 a piece. That's dirt cheap, you go anywhere that nice, even to the Carribean its going to cost you more. Look on line for deals, but I imagine you're not going to be travelling there any time soon.

Totally agree:

My fiance and I are heading to Hawaii for our Honeymoon. 5300 smackers. (we have a very full package though)

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by britboy
You basically believe that people should repress their feelings, and live a lie? Just a thought: in the bible, it says that people will be judged by their acts, as well as their thoughts. So, whether someone accepts their homosexual feelings or fights against them it makes no difference; their true desire is still the same.


i do think people shouldn't act out all their thoughts... i am not saying to live a lie. no. but i mean, i've often seen drunken frat boys and wanted to get rid of em, but i don't. there IS a difference between thinking it and doing it. clearly.

i just don't think that homosexuality falls into that category really.

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by agreenster

My fiance and I are heading to Hawaii for our Honeymoon. 5300 smackers. (we have a very full package though)

you have a full package....??? haha

that was too good to pass up. at least in my sick mind.

agreenster
May 21, 2002, 12:07 PM
Yeah, I see adults go through their 'fun stage' all the time. (having gone through college and everything) But I have to say that I disagree with that as well. I think promiscuity is awful as well.

And yes, I can see the injustice here. Its socially acceptable for people to have many sex partners (as long as its hetero) but not socially acceptable for homosexuals to have one (in their entire lifetime). That, of course, is *************.

So, I play it safe and say both are wrong.

Again, how did you know it was my birthday??

agreenster
May 21, 2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


you have a full package....??? haha

that was too good to pass up. at least in my sick mind.

I would imagine I'll have a pretty full package the entire honeymoon....(nice catch.)

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by agreenster


Be careful though, many historians agree that there was a 50 or so year surge of homosexuality in Rome immediately preceeding their fall.

No disrespect intended Duke, I aint got nothin but love for ya ( no, not THAT kind)

;)

No disrespect taken. If we start on the historical debate here, it could take a while. I've spent quite a lot of time reading up on history, many college courses and even a 6 week trip to Greece on an archiological dig (very cool btw), I'm very intreagued by it.

First off, Rome didn't 'fall'. Its all a matter of power and money. When the Emperor Constantine moved the capitol to Byzantium, changed its name to Constantinople, he effectively cut Rome out of the empire. Sure it had all its history and social influence, but the power and money started flowing out of Rome and in to Constantinople. Rome, as a city, couldn't do anything but wane. Then there were some changes in the empire, the rise of Christianity, and the whole time Constantinople flurished, and Rome became a back water. However, the people living at the time never thought, 'Oh, this sucks, Rome's fallen, and it can't get up!'

Emperor Justinian reunited the empire for a little bit, but Rome never regained it prominence. I imagine if the capitol of the Roman Empire had remained in Rome, things would be mighty different today.

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by agreenster


Totally agree:

My fiance and I are heading to Hawaii for our Honeymoon. 5300 smackers. (we have a very full package though)

That should be a lot of fun, when's the marriage? Where are you staying?

I'm ignoring the package issue, to easy.

britboy
May 21, 2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
Again, how did you know it was my birthday??

When you have the page where it shows all the forums, and who's currently online, just below it you can see who's birthdays it is today. According to the details you gave, you're 23 today. So, once again, congrats :)

cleo
May 21, 2002, 12:23 PM
Thank you for sharing your thoughts in such a calm manner... there are people out there who agree with you but who put in in terms of such hateful rhetoric that it makes it impossible to have a conversation. So I respect your civility in sharing your opinion.

A couple of things popped up for me when I read your post. First, your comments on the need for balance in the world. I couldn't agree with you more, on an energetic level. However, it is very dangerous to say that loving relationships must only be between men and women in order to preserve that balance. That assumes that gender roles are absolute and somehow essential, which is something that most straight women would take issue with, as well.

I also want to remind you that gay relationships are not just about sex. I know a number of gay people, in fact, who are waiting until they are in a long-term committed relationship before having sex; just because the state does not sanction those relationships does not mean that they are any less real. Also, I would challenge your notions of what sex really is. While I have only had relations with two women that you would call "sex" (lesbian sex is primarily defined in the broader culture by straight male pornography), I understand that sex is much more than what happens between my legs. Sex can be kissing, holding hands, whatever, within the bounds of a loving relationship. This is every bit as true in hetero relationships, as well. So it seems unfair that you would categorize intimacy of any kind as lustful, and I wonder what leads you to make those kind of generalizations.

But overall, I would suggest to you that, ok, for the sake of argument, let's say there's some old man in the sky looking down and disapproving of me sharing myself with another woman. In the larger scheme of things, did the love between me and my (hypothetical :)) girlfriend fly planes into buildings on Sept. 11? Does it cause children to shoot their teachers? Does it cause hunger and malnutrition in the South? No. Hate, pride, and greed do those things. And hate is spawned by ignorance and judgment, not by love in any of its forms. So yeah, maybe I'll burn in hell one day for who I share my love with now. But you know, at least I'm loving and sharing and giving and growing and teaching, which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for half of the "straight" people out there.

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
Yeah, I see adults go through their 'fun stage' all the time. (having gone through college and everything) But I have to say that I disagree with that as well. I think promiscuity is awful as well.


i totally agree. i tried to make it clear that i'm all for abstinence/one sexual partner...

so, we definitely agree there. the casualness of sex especially in college these days is gross... mtv doesn't help

cleo
May 21, 2002, 12:35 PM
I think it was you who asked me earlier why I'm not a big fan of drawing links between race and sexual orientation. To be honest, this is something I'm still reading up on a lot and don't have a full opinion on. But.

I think that under the eyes of the law, there's no problem with this approach. There's actually a very good book... I'll see if I can find it on my bookshelf... that makes the argument that civil rights for gey people should be legislated in an approach melding that towards race and religion. It's an interesting argument, and I think a very convincing one.

My concern is with the efforts to find an identifiable "gay gene." If such a thing is ever found, there would be huge issues of mothers-to-be selecting against it, as a few other people have already mentioned. But more than that, think about what it would do philosophically to our understanding of sexuality. I would much rather have the freedom to fall in love with a man one day, if the right man came along, than to be constrained by my "lesbian gene." And vice-versa. I think it's dangerous to draw lines like that; "Well, gay people do that and straight people do this" scares me. "I'm in love with this person and this is how we express our love" is much more free and promotes tolerance and understanding.

BUT... I totally, totally see the civil rights argument as well.

This is actually quite similar to the on-going debate over euthanasia in the disability community. As a person with a severe and progressive physical disability, I totally understand the desire for legal euthanasia. However, I can also see how, once made legal, it could quickly backfire on the very people it's supposed to help. It's a very tricky situation, and I think it provokes some of the same kind of responses as does the gay-gene debate.

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by agreenster


I would imagine I'll have a pretty full package the entire honeymoon....(nice catch.)

ohhh snap!

i didn'tknow how many people thought of the term "package" in those terms. so it wasn't "too easy" to me.... you'll be like the ups man.

macfreek57
May 21, 2002, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


1984 has big brother and its double plus good!


that's awesomely hilarious!!!

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by macfreek57

that's awesomely hilarious!!!

Your the only one who's mentioned this, I can't believe no one else got. Thanks.:D

Vilacr
May 21, 2002, 02:06 PM
There is no way a comparison can be drawn between civil rights and the plight of the gay community. I am all for gay rights, but to make a parallel comparison between a learned (maybe... not sure) behavior and the horrible plight of minorities just isn't feasible. You see, I am an African-American and truly understand how difficult it is to live in america as a minority...just as you may feel at some point. But, to make a comparison isn't at all possible for minorities ( as in race) have endured torture at the highest level something most americans can never feel.

Backtothemac
May 21, 2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Vilacr
There is no way a comparison can be drawn between civil rights and the plight of the gay community. I am all for gay rights, but to make a parallel comparison between a learned (maybe... not sure) behavior and the horrible plight of minorities just isn't feasible. You see, I am an African-American and truly understand how difficult it is to live in america as a minority...just as you may feel at some point. But, to make a comparison isn't at all possible for minorities ( as in race) have endured torture at the highest level something most americans can never feel.

Sure it is. As a Native American let me say I too understand what it is to be a minority. My people are ridiculed in ways that your people have never seen. That is not to say my people or better, the farthest thing from it, but what I mean is that I understand. It just did not come out right.

Now, Gay people will get kicked out of the military if they tell. Can't be boy scout counselors, are ridiculed and murdered in somecases much like our people were. Civil Rights extend to all people, not just minorities. The fact that minorities are more protected than are larger races is irrelevant. All people are protected by them. To differenciate and say that it is sexual gender for you, and for me it is skin color, is misguided. Do not let people define who you are because how you look. Make people define who you are because of your actions.

In a Wierd Al song there is a line about a gay jewish black dude. Which would be hardest on him?

cleo
May 21, 2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Vilacr
There is no way a comparison can be drawn between civil rights and the plight of the gay community. I am all for gay rights, but to make a parallel comparison between a learned (maybe... not sure) behavior and the horrible plight of minorities just isn't feasible. You see, I am an African-American and truly understand how difficult it is to live in america as a minority...just as you may feel at some point. But, to make a comparison isn't at all possible for minorities ( as in race) have endured torture at the highest level something most americans can never feel.

I don't think anyone meant to compare anyone's experience to anyone else's. The point is that civil rights should be extended to sexual minorities under the law, just as they have been to people with disabilities and other minorities.

I would agree with you that the percentage of people who are in a racial minority who have experienced blatant abuse, especially through history, is higher than those who are sexual minorities (mostly because many gay people can "pass" if necessary). However, please do not underestimate the fear that many gay and lesbian people live in every day, with good reason. Although those of us who live in urban, gay-friendly areas sometimes don't understand what the big fuss is about, gay and lesbian people living in rural areas are extremely likely to face physical harassment upon coming out, and at the very least face discrimination in employment and housing. Matthew Shepherd is the most well-known example, but there are countless others.

As for sexuality being a "learned behavior"... did someone have to teach you what to do with your parts or your heart in order for it to feel right to you?

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by cleo
As for sexuality being a "learned behavior"... did someone have to teach you what to do with your parts or your heart in order for it to feel right to you?

Now that's one of the best things I've seen in a while. I don't give awards away, but if I did you'd get my 'Flame Buster' award (technically it wasn't in response to a flame), but damn, thats a good solid statement.

But one of the hardest things here, is that a straight person really can't know what its like to be gay, and a gay individual has a different perspective on things, so there really is no right or wrong answer. Using religion to back up your defense never works for me, because you're not using facts but faith to ground your arguement. Homosexuality is not an unnatural act, it happens in nature among many different species. So who's to really say what it supposed to be. As for familly, that's altogether different thing. The mother/father/children family structure is a recent development (10s of thousands of years) in human society - we didn't evolve from small families but family groups. So we are genetically wired for something a little different than what we consider normal today.

rainman::|:|
May 21, 2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by cleo
I think it was you who asked me earlier why I'm not a big fan of drawing links between race and sexual orientation. To be honest, this is something I'm still reading up on a lot and don't have a full opinion on. But.

Ah, i understand better. I am certainly very afraid of the discovery of the gay gene, because selective birthing will probably be a reality within the next decade. It already is to some extent, but i mean on a much bigger scale. I can think of a lot of people that would rather abort than have a gay child, which is terribly sad.

The biggest problem I think we're facing right now, is the idea that the majority of Americans have to agree with gay rights before they can be enacted. That's another way civil rights tie in-- it took decades for african-american people to be protected and given rights, as public opinion gradually accepted them. I think we can all look back and agree ('cept for the klan, maybe) that it was a travesty to wait so long... We're talking half a century ago, segregation was still alive and kicking. The point is, gay people want rights that will not infringe on anyone else's, and we should be granted them whether or not those other people agree. And no this isn't like saying "murderers think murder should be made legal" because THAT infringes upon other people's rights. Anyway, enough ranting...

Vilacr, I certainly understand what you're saying, forgive me if i belittled the suffering that was inflicted upon black people.. I just meant to say that many parallels can be drawn. You have the KKK, we have the Phelps clan. you have had racially motivated murders, we have had orientation-motivated murders. A lot more than you'd think. Yes i do in fact know how horrible discrimination is, based on something you cannot control... I've been turned down for jobs, insulted, humiliated in public, physically injured, harassed, stalked, threatened with injury or death... my family has suffered many of these same fates.... my little brothers are to this day harassed at school for something they (as well as the harassers) don't even understand... The difference here is, you're protected by law, and I am not. Hell, the police have, in some cases, been obvious about blowing me off. I have no recourse. Luckily, I moved to Des Moines from my small town... just as we got an anti-descrimination ordinance... so within the city limits, they cannot turn me down for a job or housing. But let me tell you, there are plenty of other reasons to turn me down, once they find out i'm gay.

Perhaps civil rights and gay rights are closer than you'd think. Forgive me if any of this is rude, i'm an activist and can get very emotional about these things!

:)
pnw

Gelfin
May 21, 2002, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by agreenster

Be careful though, many historians agree that there was a 50 or so year surge of homosexuality in Rome immediately preceeding their fall.

A common phrase you'll hear (or should hear) when arguments like this come up is post hoc, ergo propter hoc. This is latin for "after this, therefore because of this," and it's a very common fallacy.

Another example would be the argument (which I have actually heard), that because the September 11th attacks happened after Bush became President, it follows that the September 11th attacks happened because Bush became President. Regardless of one's opinion of Bush, one must in fairness admit that this is at best an unsubstantiated conclusion.

Another interpretation of that relationship, held by many scholars, is that the traditional Christian aversion to all things sexual was actually a direct reaction to the relatively indulgent sexual habits of the Romans. At the time of Christ, of course, the Jewish people were under a rather oppressive Roman rule. There is, under such circumstances, a tendency to fashion oneself as being the opposite of one's oppressor. Thus sexuality became taboo, and the Romans could be regarded, post facto as being among the worst of sinners.

Another theory I have heard, though I have not seen the documentation to back this up myself, is that extra-biblical historical sources suggest Paul, who was far more influential on the shape of the early Christian faith than Jesus himself was, had contracted a venerial disease from a prostitute prior to his conversion. This, it is suggested, was the motivation for the very strong anti-sex and anti-woman positions Paul himself held and propagated through the doctrine of the church.

As far as the Roman Empire goes, there were enough well-documented problems both internal and external to the Empire that a little buggery would not have swayed their fate one way or the other.

mcrain
May 21, 2002, 03:41 PM
The funny thing is that the solution to all these problems is sex.

We should all have sex with anyone and everyone anytime. Walking down the street, she's cute, she thinks I'm cute, we have sex. Get dressed, go to work, particpiate in wild orgy.

Eventually, sexuality won't matter and there won't be any races.

britboy
May 21, 2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by mcrain
The funny thing is that the solution to all these problems is sex.

We should all have sex with anyone and everyone anytime. Walking down the street, she's cute, she thinks I'm cute, we have sex. Get dressed, go to work, particpiate in wild orgy.

Eventually, sexuality won't matter and there won't be any races.


:p :p :p

Yeah, and everyone will be infected with STD's.

mischief
May 21, 2002, 06:46 PM
What if hate crimes themselves cause race?

It's the only evolutionary explaination I can find:

Regional conflicts between nations bottleneck phenotypes, which re-enforce separation of identity, which causes regional conflicts..... repeat ad nauseum.

This explaination covers the differing phenotypes without the problems of existing "independant path" theories that have recently been disproven.

I agree with mcrain: Love thy neighbor.:D But wear a condom.;)

Vilacr
May 21, 2002, 07:18 PM
To all of you on this board there is no one I mean no one here that can say they have it worse than blacks in the present day. I know gays have it pretty bad and so do native Americans. But can you say people see you as ignorant or stupid before you open your mouth. There are all the pre-conceived notions and stereotypes that we are lazy or to ignorant to understand or talk (remember ebonics). I can sympathize with you cleo for I am on your side. Not that you need sympathy for you are a strong young lady and can stand on your own. I know you guys here do not like biblical phrases or references but we all know something or someone created us therefore there is a higher being. In being so we were created different (male/female) for a reason. I shouldn't have to explain the different races for we are all intelligent enough to know how the races came about (I hope). Now the creator( I will refrain from using the term God for we all have different religions and beliefs) created man and woman for a reason, woman was meant to be man's companion. We were given certain physical attributes which were meant to be used in a certain manner. Remember solomon and gamira (my spelling is bad :D)

britboy
May 21, 2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Vilacr
There are all the pre-conceived notions and stereotypes that we are lazy or to ignorant to understand or talk (remember ebonics).
......
Remember solomon and gamira (my spelling is bad :D)


Sodom and Gomorah. Sorry, couldn't resist that one :p

Yes, i believe that man and woman were created to complement each other, on that i agree with you. At the same time though, we were also created with choice and free will. Some people have chosen (or just are that way for one reason or another) a partner of the same gender. If they therefore are using attributes given to them by God in a way that pleases them, and doesn't harm others, who's to judge them?

Beej
May 21, 2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet


You'll have to talk to beej when he gets back from his trip to Fiji, actually I'm really interested in seeing some of his pics too, see if I recognize anything. Ooh, I'll have to tell him about some of the restaurants in Sigatoka....

Its amazing how many Aussies are actually in Fiji, its very close for them, sort of like our Carribean. I almost considered trying to get a job there and stay for a year or too, it was that cool. And it had the best Indian food I ever had, mm, those Curry Houses in Nadi, man, I still drool. PM me and tell me! Man I am dying to get there... just another 40 odd days to go. Fiji, here I come!!!

sparkleytone
May 21, 2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Vilacr
To all of you on this board there is no one I mean no one here that can say they have it worse than blacks in the present day.

Villacr, I personally think you should check yourself and think before you speak. There are people using this forum from all over the world. Although you did not specifically say it you seem to imply that blacks have it the worst in the world.

Would you rather be a peaceful Muslim in Israel? Would you rather be in Afghanistan? Would you rather be in ANY third world coountry wondering how you are going to find food today?

The Jews were persecuted long before the Africans. They continue to be so persecuted. While you may be discriminated against, how many people have you met that thought you were the spawn of satan himself? How many of them hated you so much that they would blow themself up in order to destroy your people's peace? Were your ancestors the victims of genocide?

The best thing any one person can do for his or her race/creed/whatever is to be the best possible person that he or she can be. That's it. As soon as a person forgets about personal gains and begins to think about the wellbeing of others, those personal gains will begin to be realized.

jelloshotsrule
May 21, 2002, 08:11 PM
it's not doing ANY good to try to play king of the mistreatment mountain.

you can't measure what various peoples have gone through, so why bother trying?

that just doesn't make sense.

sparkley, you make some good points.

Backtothemac
May 21, 2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Vilacr
To all of you on this board there is no one I mean no one here that can say they have it worse than blacks in the present day. I know gays have it pretty bad and so do native Americans. But can you say people see you as ignorant or stupid before you open your mouth. There are all the pre-conceived notions and stereotypes that we are lazy or to ignorant to understand or talk (remember ebonics).

No offense, but yea, no minorites plight is greater than another. For example. My people do not even have the opportunities that you are presented. We have be bansihed from society to localtions that noone would like to live. We were murdered and slaughtered in the name of the King of England, and Spain, and France. We were lied to, and had our lands stolen from us. We are looked at as drunks, and lazy. See one other thing. I have never seen a baseball team called the Atlanta Negros, or the Dallas Jews, or the San Fran homo's. See that IS the difference. My people are now objects, and no longer people. You see, yes there are races that have it as bad as Blacks do.

Gelfin
May 21, 2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Vilacr
To all of you on this board there is no one I mean no one here that can say they have it worse than blacks in the present day. I know gays have it pretty bad and so do native Americans. But can you say people see you as ignorant or stupid before you open your mouth.

Oh, I don't know if I agree with that 100%. I'll grant that black people have some obstacles that other people don't, but I'm originally from Alabama, allegedly the very heart and soul of ignorant racist bigotry in the U.S.. I grant that people didn't assume I was ignorant before I opened my mouth, but until I lost my accent, people sure did make that assumption after I opened my mouth.

That's actually beside the point. The point I want to make is, I saw what it was like for black people in my community, and I saw what it was like when my best friend from high school came out (yeah, surprised the ******* out of me), and I've got to say the black people got treated with ten times the respect my friend did. Black people don't get lynched in the South anymore, but there was a point where I thought my friend might be. All the wonderful, devout Christian people in the church were quick to let him know that he was no longer welcome in the church (after all, we don't want sinners in church, right?). He lost his job as a firefighter. The community service organizations he volunteered with not-so-politely told him that his services would no longer be required or accepted. He was essentially run out of town. Because of that experience, I'm not sure I can agree that black people unquestionably have it worse than gay people. At least when somebody says there's something inherently wrong with being black, everybody pretty much knows that person is a racist idiot.

Besides, when was the last time you heard some young kid point to something he doesn't like and say, "dude, that is so black." Didn't think so. I'm not even gay myself, and when kids say that it offends hell out of me.

Mr. Anderson
May 21, 2002, 10:50 PM
Take all these topics we've touched on here, sexism, racism and nationalism and what it all boils down to is if you aren't part of the group, you're competing with it, so it bad. This is a survival trait that every human has, but with the dynamicism of todays society, the lines that divide us and them have blurred to the point where it becomes indistinguishable in some cases. So people rally to causes, not all of them right, and form temporary groups that help support each other. None of the issues of race and sex and sexual preference will ever be resolved unless we can let go to the idea that different is bad. And its not what God said is different (you'd have to ask which God), but what is different from each individuals perspective.

One of the most amazing things to think about is viewing the earth from space at a distance far enough that its just a small blue marble in a huge black sea. Once you realize that everyone is on this ship together, that everyone deserves the freedom to be whoever they want, provided they don't harm others in doing so, then things seem a little less serious.

Sure this doesn't help solve the problems we see today, but its something we can strive for. Don't ask me why I'm preaching, I don't really know, I just felt like saying all this.

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by cleo
So yeah, maybe I'll burn in hell one day for who I share my love with now.

I certainly dont believe THAT. This is kind of a seperate issue, but I believe that no one--not even the worst human on the planet (Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, or Bill Gates) deserves everlasting punishment in hell. Give me a break. Thats the worst thing possible. I dont even believe in Hell, but again, this is all a seperate issue.

Regarding homosexuality though, I guess I will continue to do as Ive always done. Yeah, I think its wrong, but I try (try) not to pass judgement on anyone. If I did, Id spend so much time on myself Id never get around to judging anyone else anyway. I know its cliche, but Im the 'agree to disagree' type in the end, especially when discussion turns to burning bridges. it just isnt worth it.

As always everyone, peace-

oh, and sorry it took me so long to get back to the boards--I went to see Star Wars- and omigod it was waaaay better than Episode I.

Vilacr
May 22, 2002, 12:28 AM
Check your history man. I think you have it backwards. Read about slavery and how many africans died, more than any other race on earth.
Gelfin...haven't you heard about the dragging in Texas, so we do get lynched today.
BTTM.... I hear ya buddy and feel ya as well.

rainman::|:|
May 22, 2002, 01:05 AM
What the holy hell. I had no idea comparing gay rights to civil rights would cause this much stir. First off, there certainly have been races or creeds dying in much bigger numbers than slaves did. But that's not the point. As was said, comparing how much **** we've all gone through because of one minority or another is pointless... We have all had it very bad in different ways-- It's comparing apples and oranges. we've been reduced to petty bickering, when we should take each other's examples for what it really means-- Bigotry is wrong. it's wrong when applied to black people, it's wrong when applied to jews, or native americans, and yes, even gay people.

ever think, if all the minorities banded together, we'd be the majority??

hehe...
i am very glad we've been able to discuss one of the worst issues facing the world today, and everyone's kept their cool... hats off to everyone here!!

:)
pnw

Gelfin
May 22, 2002, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by Vilacr
Gelfin...haven't you heard about the dragging in Texas, so we do get lynched today.

And on the other hand you have that gay kid who got killed in Montana a couple of years ago. I'm with Paul on this. You just can't get into a contest over who is more oppressed like that. And if you look at history, everybody's ancestors have been both slavers and slaves at some point.

Macette
May 22, 2002, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by agreenster
Regarding homosexuality though, I guess I will continue to do as Ive always done. Yeah, I think its wrong, but I try (try) not to pass judgement on anyone.


You know agreenster, when you say that it's 'wrong' but you're 'trying not to pass judgement', you're just being a wimp. If you REALLY believe it's wrong, then bloody stand up for your opinions. You can do that here - and we'll argue with you, but we won't, like, kill you. (and if it gets too hairy, you could always reincarnate yourself with a different name...)

If you think it's wrong, then why? Hell, I think it's right - I'm a lesbian and I've fought out loud for many years now - and what i've sacrificed for it is a sense of personal safety (men don't hit 'women', but some of them hit dykes), and several of my rights (no automatic right to my partner's assets if she dies, no legal recognition of our love, no protection from a generally homophobic police force). But it's worth it, because I get to be who I am.

The greatest attacks on my rights come from people like you - people who haven't questioned (or questioned hard enough) the religious and political figures who tell them that homosexuality is 'wrong'. There are violent nuts, but most of them don't get in government. What governments are full of is people who privately think that homosexuality is 'wrong', who publicly say that they're 'tolerent but conservative' (which means 'i think it's wrong') and then they don't legislate to protect MY rights, and the rights of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

all that happens to you if you come out against me is you get argued with. so - do it. make a stand. don't just 'agree to disagree' until you've put up some defense of your position. Tell me what's wrong with me!

(trumpets sound in the distance. the cavalry ready their.. etc)

Mr. Anderson
May 22, 2002, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Macette

The greatest attacks on my rights come from people like you - people who haven't questioned (or questioned hard enough) the religious and political figures who tell them that homosexuality is 'wrong'. There are violent nuts, but most of them don't get in government. What governments are full of is people who privately think that homosexuality is 'wrong', who publicly say that they're 'tolerent but conservative' (which means 'i think it's wrong') and then they don't legislate to protect MY rights, and the rights of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

A quick question, how many politicians are gay? Does anyone have a number on this? I can't imagine that there aren't a few.

But its not just politics, Macette, its in everyday life. One thing to note, is that we have come a long way in accepting people for who/what they are. Its been a painful process and its far from over, but it should give you some hope that the future holds promise.

BTW, how long have you had the signature, Macette? You could sell tickets to that event if you ever get Cleo to agree:D :D :D :D

Backtothemac
May 22, 2002, 09:32 AM
OMG! You know I think that if a straight man was given the choice between 1,000 buck and getting to referee that even, they would choose to referee.

Hey, you know what. I may be broke, but why am I wearing this zebra striped shirt.

Oh, well, you ladies ready....(Berry White in the background)....Lets get it on.....:D

And the crowd goes wild!

Mr. Anderson
May 22, 2002, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Oh, well, you ladies ready....(Berry White in the background)....Lets get it on.....:D

And the crowd goes wild!

This is so off topic, but its too much to resist. Definitely look into doing a webcast.

resm
May 22, 2002, 09:45 AM
I have been following this 6 pages of postings without actually intending to do my own posting since I generaly NEVER discuss religion or sexual orientation on an open forum because it never comes to any conclusion and never changes anybody's opinion.
But then so what.....rules are here to be broken :)

Altough it may sometimes look like it does but my experience is that the only outcome when everybody clicks "shut down" is....they agree to disagree because "I am right and they are wrong" !

And the ones who do not disagree do not do so because they knew in the first place within themself what is right or wrong.

here my opinion if any body cares to read, if not, please continue to the next posting :)

If we look at homosexuality from the purely scientific point of view its easy to say "its wrong" because the ultimate purpose of sexual attraction, that of attracting to procreate is not there.

But then in this day's and age it is kind of difficult to insist that this IS the ultimate purpose if you look at the behavior in society, be it hetero or homosexual.

For the sake of argument and to keep this going let's say its wrong.

But the heck....homosexuality EXIST's ! and so does drug addiction and smoking and drunk driving and murder and racial hate along with "addiction" to soya milk and friendship and parenthood and veggie lover's ( hi to all the green's out there :)
What I would like to say with this is ....we all have our desires, inclinations, orientations and even addictions and somewhere in life we have made a decission to either take it or leave it.

Now...why did we make this decission ? Was it on our own free will or was it forced on us or we simply had no other choice ?

If we study eastern philosophy (or even spiritual philosophy) then we will learn that our behavior is based on "inheritate" "aquired" and "imposed."

"Inheritate" can be due to our genes or passed actions in our former life(s) if you so belive, "aquired" is what we learn trough our own actions since birth and "imposed" is thanks to the fine society/family/country we live in/with.

Combine this 3 "Forces" and ask yourself how much is actually still based on our own choice ?
Yes...I still think we have but for SOME it can be at the least very difficult or plain impossible.

Complaining or disagreeing about all the "evils" in society is about the same as complaining about the flie's on the cow dung !
Help to remove the cow dung first....then there will be no more flie's.

We ALL have an inborn instinct to survive and to be happy.

Due to the screwed up society we live in, this is expressing itself sometimes in way's that , I have to admitt, are strange or may look strange to the ones who find their happiness in other way's.

But ultimately.....I want to be happy !

So I make my own choices based on my own "free" will and for those who disagree with my choices...
Dun worry....I will pay my own bill :)

BTW......yes, I'm gay

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Macette
all that happens to you if you come out against me is you get argued with. so - do it. make a stand. don't just 'agree to disagree' until you've put up some defense of your position. Tell me what's wrong with me!

Please read my post that is like, 8 paragraphs long I wrote yesterday. It pretty much sums up my opinion, and I basically blamed homosexuals and sexual predators for everything that is wrong in the world. I think you probably missed it, or you wouldnt have asked 'why do you think it is wrong.'

Hence, I was backing off because I also have the strong conviction that people will never agree.

Oh, and if homosexuality never gets representation in the government because people 'like me' are simply tolerant and do nothing about it, that kind of suits me fine. I think homosexuality is a fad that is coming back around and will dissipate in a couple-20 years anyway.

Anyway, read my first post in this forum--then you'll really hate me.
;)

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by resm
Combine this 3 "Forces" and ask yourself how much is actually still based on our own choice ?
Yes...I still think we have but for SOME it can be at the least very difficult or plain impossible.

Now that's an absolute cop-out. If everyone followed this principle, criminals would walk free because they 'couldnt help' killing someone. (homosexuality completely aside) This argument has no merit.

Originally posted by resm
Complaining or disagreeing about all the "evils" in society is about the same as complaining about the flie's on the cow dung !
Help to remove the cow dung first....then there will be no more flie's.

So you're saying that society should be removed in order to prevent the 'evils?' Thats more rediculous.
No offense or anything, but you have to come up with better arguements than this to convince me why homosexuality should be widely accepted.

I agree that our society has problems bigger than homosexuality, but that still doesnt mean the lesser of two evils is good.

Vilacr
May 22, 2002, 10:04 AM
Oh..I forgot this is America and everything still holds true. It is seemingly easy to forget or be ignorant on history when you are the governing body. I will now go to where I am accepted and understood.

mcrain
May 22, 2002, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
No offense, but yea, no minorites plight is greater than another. For example. My people do not even have the opportunities that you are presented. We have be bansihed from society to localtions that noone would like to live. We were murdered and slaughtered in the name of the King of England, and Spain, and France. We were lied to, and had our lands stolen from us. We are looked at as drunks, and lazy. See one other thing. I have never seen a baseball team called the Atlanta Negros, or the Dallas Jews, or the San Fran homo's. See that IS the difference. My people are now objects, and no longer people. You see, yes there are races that have it as bad as Blacks do.

I went to University of Illinois and there were a few of us who were, and still are, adament that the use of the "chief" is an outrage. I'm India indian, but I sympathize/empathize with you and the other native american who have suffered.

As for black versus indian versus whatever..., don't forget a few things. There is reverse discrimination. There are also programs that are designed to limit access to asians because of their disproportionatly high enrollment (higher education).

Another thing to remember is that at least you have a people. You have an identity. You have a group.

There are many melados (Tiger Woods, any number of half this, half that, that are shunned by both halves)

I, for example, am half Indian (not native american) and half Irish. I would be a perfect CIA operative as I can blend in with nearly any race, but because of that, I'm also not any race. I'm not accepted as caucasion (I'm thought of as a minority of some sort - maybe italian, greek, muslim, indian, hispanic, who knows) and not accepted as Indian. So, I have no people.

On top of that, I'm adopted, so I don't have the connection to my racial background that others have.

But, if your black, there are study groups, organizations, etc. designed specifically for you. You walk down the street, and the mere fact that you too have suffered gives you something in common with another person of color. You have a bond with all others who are black. I can't tell you how many times I've been in groups where no one knew anyone and the blacks gravitated to each other, asians likewise, etc... and everyone else just sort of was on their own.

What you have to remember is that we are all individuals. You may have a silver spoon up your butt (Vicacr), fancy clothes, a beautiful lowrider (I want one!), a pretty girlfriend or wife, a nice house, etc... and here you are spouting about being treated so bad compared to everyone else, and you don't know anything about what we have been through.

You're making broad racial generalities, yet, you freak if a caucasion makes a broad racial generality about you. Is that fair? Is that not racism? Come on, that's ridiculous.

Oh, and this creator argument is full of holes. Number one, there may be no creater. Number 2, the bible may be pure fiction. Number 3, if there is a "creator," none of us may have gotten it right. Number 4, maybe one group did get it right, and they're fine with homosexuality.

But, best of all, if God made men and women, he also made men and women who were homosexual. If you say that's wrong, then you are saying God is wrong. That's pretty harsh. Maybe I should report you to your church.

Again, we are all individuals. We should just love each other, accept each other, and judge everyone on what each person does. (If someone is a prick, they are a prick, but no one is bad just because they happen to be black, white, gay, jewish, muslim, or a woman)

Everyone needs to grow up and take some lessons from the civil rights movement, Gandhi, and others.

britboy
May 22, 2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by agreenster
I think homosexuality is a fad that is coming back around and will dissipate in a couple-20 years anyway.


Homosexuality has been around for thousands of years, so it's certaintly not a 'fad'. There's evidence of it from the time of the pharaohs. You could argue that acceptence is a 'fad', but certaintly not the act itself.

mcrain
May 22, 2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by agreenster
I think homosexuality is a fad that is coming back around and will dissipate in a couple-20 years anyway.
Actually, Christianity is more of a fad. Homosexuality was here long before Christianity, and will be here long after Christianity is replaced with something else.

<edit>Hey Britman, just read your previous post --- great minds think alike!
<edit2> Dukestreet - not just the maker of fine avatars, but also a great mind!

Mr. Anderson
May 22, 2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by agreenster

I think homosexuality is a fad that is coming back around and will dissipate in a couple-20 years anyway.

This has to be the single most ignorant phrase I've read yet on this thread.

Homosexuality has been around for as long as there have been humans. Its no fad, its just seen more press lately because its not as hidden as it use to be, no longer 'taboo'.

And what could happen 20 years from now that would put an end to it? Are all the gays and lesbians alive today and 20 years older in future just going to come to a conclusion that they've been fooling themselves all along and switch over to heterosexual?

I have to wonder if you didn't just put that in there as flame bait :mad:

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 10:33 AM
Sorry guys--I typed without my brain engaged

Yeah yeah, I know homosexuality has been around ever since humans existed, but what I meant was- This current surge of homosexuality will tone down in th next 20 years. I think its a cyclic thing. People's preferences will change and homosexuality wont seem as 'cutting egde' and attractive as it is today. I just feel that people will be tired of the sexual confusion and stick to what actually works.

Monogamous. Heteroesxual.

1. Tab A (man) finds Slot B (woman)
2. Fall in love
3. Get married
4. Tab A (man) inserts Slot B (woman)
5. Make baby

Repeat when necessary
(who turned on the NO2?)

Mr. Anderson
May 22, 2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by agreenster

Yeah yeah, I know homosexuality has been around ever since humans existed, but what I meant was- This current surge of homosexuality will tone down in th next 20 years. I think its a cyclic thing. People's preferences will change and homosexuality wont seem as 'cutting egde' and attractive as it is today. I just feel that people will be tired of the sexual confusion and stick to what actually works.


But you're defining a fad here, its not a fad. If anything you'll see even more of it and 'bi' relationships as ideas grow and it becomes more accepted. Today's openess is laying the ground work (ok, bad, sorry) for a more tolerant future.

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by mcrain
Another thing to remember is that at least you have a people. You have an identity. You have a group. I have no people. On top of that, I'm adopted, so I don't have the connection to my racial background that others have.

Its called America Pal. You're an American. We are your people. Why does everyone have to know their 'racial' background? Hell, I dont care where my great great great great great grandfather was born! Who gives a *****? Im American, and proud of it. Thats all I need.
Originally posted by mcrain
But, best of all, if God made men and women, he also made men and women who were homosexual. If you say that's wrong, then you are saying God is wrong. That's pretty harsh. Maybe I should report you to your church.

If thats the case, then God dreated murderers and child molestors and theives and the like. No, I think humans have screwed themselves up fine all by themselves.

Originally posted by mcrain
Everyone needs to grow up and take some lessons from the civil rights movement, Gandhi, and others.

Thats kind of harsh. Why do you automatically think you know exactly what these people stood for? Maybe you have it confused. It seems like you have more personal issues with your past and heritage, and the acceptance of youself, and take itout on other people by saying they dont understand anything.

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet


But you're defining a fad here, its not a fad. If anything you'll see even more of it and 'bi' relationships as ideas grow and it becomes more accepted. Today's openess is laying the ground work (ok, bad, sorry) for a more tolerant future.

Nah.

Mr. Anderson
May 22, 2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by agreenster

Nah.

That's all you've got to say to that? Pathetic!

click this! (http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Sounds/HolyGrail.au/taunt.au)

cleo
May 22, 2002, 11:13 AM
Agreenster, if all you can do is running around saying "you're wrong" without any constructive dialogue (too scared to answer my post a while back?), then I don't care to continue this nonsense. I really like how this thread started out, with people asking questions and trying to understand each other a little better. But judgemental pronouncements about gays being the root cause of evil in the world are idiotic and uncalled for. You suck.

jelloshotsrule
May 22, 2002, 11:17 AM
i can't believe people are still spending time talking about who has it worst...

well if group a spends all its time crying and whining "i have it worst... awww blah blah" and group b takes their energy and puts it toward making things better for themselves, then you'll soon see that group b's position will change, they will be treated better. group a meanwhile will have what they "want".. they WILL have it worst cause they haven't done jack to help themselves.

martin luther king wasn't looking for sympathy or pity, he was looking for respect and equal treatment. he wasn't saying "hey, we're treated the worst, feel bad for us" he was trying to get people to realize all folks are the same at heart and therefore everyone is equal.

likewise, the good gay leaders are i'm sure saying the same things.


i will say this, black folks have the instant recognition thing, so it IS easier to tell someone is black than that someone is gay. it's that simple. doesn't mean anyone has it worse, just that one group may be easier to recognize/target than the others.

back-dawg. how do you feel about columbus day? i think it's a ****ing sham and i personaly would rather have school/work than honor that ****er.... my feelings though.

mcrain
May 22, 2002, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by agreenster
Its called America Pal. You're an American. We are your people. Why does everyone have to know their 'racial' background? Hell, I dont care where my great great great great great grandfather was born! Who gives a *****? Im American, and proud of it. Thats all I need.

If thats the case, then God dreated murderers and child molestors and theives and the like. No, I think humans have screwed themselves up fine all by themselves.

Thats kind of harsh. Why do you automatically think you know exactly what these people stood for? Maybe you have it confused. It seems like you have more personal issues with your past and heritage, and the acceptance of youself, and take itout on other people by saying they dont understand anything.

I take it you haven't a clue what I was responding to. Vicacr indicated that Blacks had it worst as far as persecution. I used the illustration that there are other groups, melados and even others who do not have the built in support group of having a race. I specifically did not say I had any problems, just that it is silly to argue that because you are black, you've suffered more than someone else.

Sure, and an argument can be made that we're all animals, survival of the fittest. In that argument, there's nothing wrong with thievery, murderers, etc..., however, as we have developed a society, we have evolved into caring for and taking care of each other and as a society decided to say that such behavior that harms others would not be tolerated.

What's harsh? Saying that you should grow up, or that you should take a lesson from the civil rights movement, Gandhi and others? I stand by both.

I'm very secure and happy with who I am, what I am, and what my background is. I'm an American who happens to have my racial makeup. I'm so secure in who and what I am, that I can accept other people who have different viewpoints and who do things that I don't understand.

You on the other hand, seem adamant that you're viewpoint is correct and you refuse to accept anyone who does not share your viewpoint or anyone who does those things you don't do.

My guess is you're the one with the deep seated "issues."

Why don't we both go see a shrink, go get hyptnotized and see what happens. My guess is you had a secret crush on some uncle or priest and they rejected you, so now you can't stand anyone different from you. LOL!

You don't have to understand everything. You don't have to do everything, to still be able to accept another human being as a fellow homo sapien worthy of life. Heck, you could even be friends with them and maybe even learn a thing or two.

Closed minded, intolerent people. I'd venture a guess that there are a few sections in your Bible that deal with that.

jelloshotsrule
May 22, 2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by cleo
Agreenster, if all you can do is running around saying "you're wrong" without any constructive dialogue (too scared to answer my post a while back?), then I don't care to continue this nonsense. I really like how this thread started out, with people asking questions and trying to understand each other a little better. But judgemental pronouncements about gays being the root cause of evil in the world are idiotic and uncalled for. You suck.

cleo. i agree.

i think him describing his opinions in itself is ok. and no one snapped over that. it was when he kinda got dodgy and short with his responses. if you start a fire, you gotta be ready to wait it out.

hmm... i will see if i have any more questions to ask you... get this thread back on good track! whoo!

mcrain
May 22, 2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
hmm... i will see if i have any more questions to ask you... get this thread back on good track! whoo!

I've got questions for you cleo, but nothing suitable for a public board...

I'm always looking for tips to keep the little lady happy! LOL

jelloshotsrule
May 22, 2002, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by mcrain


I've got questions for you cleo, but nothing suitable for a public board...

I'm always looking for tips to keep the little lady happy! LOL

haha. i thought of that... but hey, you could always just ask the little lady herself eh? though i guess that might spoil it a bit. hmm

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by mcrain
Closed minded, intolerent people. I'd venture a guess that there are a few sections in your Bible that deal with that.

Where did you read I believed in the Bible? Please re-read. Im a very anti-Bible type of person.

Obviously, few people have gathered what I am saying. Im pretty frustrated right now because I obviously have come off as some kind of Bible fundamental freak who hates homosexuals.

I think you guys would find it interesting that I have a high tolerance for homosexuals as people. In fact, at school I was one of the most well liked people in the gay community because I accepted them, and didnt shun them in class like the jock football guys did. But that still doesnt mean I agree with what they do.

Im sorry Cleo. I dont suck, and Im sorry I came off as a jerk. Forums are so difficult to use, and to really try to get whats in your head onto the board.

The reason I am so short and snippy is because there is too much to respond to, and Im getting swamped at work-

Anyway, I just want you all to know I never made this personal, so please dont make it personal on me (McRain)

PS--what didnt I respond to Cleo?

cleo
May 22, 2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by agreenster


Where did you read I believed in the Bible? Please re-read. Im a very anti-Bible type of person.

Obviously, few people have gathered what I am saying. Im pretty frustrated right now because I obviously have come off as some kind of Bible fundamental freak who hates homosexuals.

I think you guys would find it interesting that I have a high tolerance for homosexuals as people. In fact, at school I was one of the most well liked people in the gay community because I accepted them, and didnt shun them in class like the jock football guys did. But that still doesnt mean I agree with what they do.

Im sorry Cleo. I dont suck, and Im sorry I came off as a jerk. Forums are so difficult to use, and to really try to get whats in your head onto the board.

The reason I am so short and snippy is because there is too much to respond to, and Im getting swamped at work-

Anyway, I just want you all to know I never made this personal, so please dont make it personal on me (McRain)

PS--what didnt I respond to Cleo?

I apologize for saying that you suck. I guess I'm getting carried away by my frustration as well. What I don't get is how you can say you "tolerate" (more on that in a second) gay people but privately think that they are wrong, or make wrong choices, or something like that.

It just occurred to me, in rereading your posts, that you have never claimed to accept gay people, just to tolerate us. This is an ongoing debate within gay communities; is it enough to be tolerated (not harrassed, given civil rights protection, etc) or should we push for full acceptance? It is a natural human desire to want to be accepted - to have people be affirming of you as an individual - and therefore it kind of pushes buttons when people say they just "tolerate" you.

But I do agree with what Macette said earlier, and what others have echoed. It's extremely not cool to say "hey, I have gay friends, gay people like me, I get along with them well... BUT I think that their expression of love and affection is the downfall of society." WTF? That doesn't even make sense.

I think the reason people are assuming you are coming from a religious perspective is that you haven't given any real reason for your prejudice other than "it's wrong." Who told you it's wrong? Why do you believe that? What personal experiences have you had to lead you to believe that gay people are somehow immoral? The vast majority of people who espouse these kind of opinions have been fed them by the church (directly or indirectly).

If you have come to your conclusions some other way, and have really thought them through and they are based on your own experience, then I have no problem. But if you're just repeating propaganda, then expect to be challenged further.

jelloshotsrule
May 22, 2002, 12:24 PM
cleo:

not that this is specifically applicable to agreenster's case, but here is how i can see how tolerating/accepting and also thinking someone is wrong can work...

i personally think that smoking, getting drunk, having casual sex is "wrong". that means, i don't do it and i think it's a physically and in some cases spiritually harmful thing...

however, as a forgiving and imperfect person myself, i realize everyone does some things that arent' "right". i accept other people's faults as i ask them to accept mine.

so that's how i think someone can accept and love someone who they think does something that is "wrong". one can still love an alcoholic. one can still love someone who messes up. etc.


don't get me wrong here! i'm not saying this would fit with him. given the whole "downfall of society thing". i'm just showing how the particular feelings could be possible in my mind. word up!

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 12:30 PM
Hey Cleo--you dont suck either! Its okay we are discussing this, and Im not mad at anyone! :)

I pretty much gave my reasoning about being 'anit-gay' in my first post, but Ill certainly recap:

I believe that the downfall of sexual intimacy has caused a lot of social problems in the US. Men and women cheat on their spouses, go to strip clubs, marry their relatives, have homosexual partners, raise imbred children, transmit STD's, and MOST importantly, divorce like marriage meant nothing to them.

I just believe it is healtheir, and more beneficial to society as a whole for people to find one mate, love them forever, and raise their children. Maybe thats too simple.

Again, I agree that homosexuality (the normal kind, not the slut/predator kind--Im sure you know the difference) is not as offensvie as other sexual practices, but still (again, in my opinion) it diverts from the natural, which, in my book is destructive. Granted, it is a slower form of destruction, but destruction nonetheless.

Anyway, thats what I believe.

Oh, and regarding the 'my friends are gay, and gay people like me' debate: Here is my opinion.

It is VERY easy to like people who are gay, but hate what they do. If you had to hate everyone when they did something wrong, you'd hate everyone in the world. I like my friends, but I hate it when they get drunk and puke in my car. I like police officers, but I hate it when they take advantage of their power. I like people, but I hate it when they live in a homosexual relationship. EVERYONE does things I dont like, but that doesnt mean I dont like the people.

I like the people, but tolerate the homosexuality; just like I like my friends, and tolerate it when they smoke around me.

Peace-
Agreenster

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 12:32 PM
Looks like Jello beat me to the punch

jelloshotsrule
May 22, 2002, 12:42 PM
agreenster.... do you drink/smoke/or anything like that?

personally i'm straightedge (no drugs/casual sex) so i know where you're coming from for the most part...

Mr. Anderson
May 22, 2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
I believe that the downfall of sexual intimacy has caused a lot of social problems in the US. Men and women cheat on their spouses, go to strip clubs, marry their relatives, have homosexual partners, raise imbred children, transmit STD's, and MOST importantly, divorce like marriage meant nothing to them.

I just believe it is healtheir, and more beneficial to society as a whole for people to find one mate, love them forever, and raise their children.

I'm going to agree to disagree with you agreenster, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. Peace.:D

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 12:50 PM
Hmm, not really.

Ive always been a very health conscious, staright edged kind of person as well. Ive never smoked or done drugs, but I do drink socially on occasion. Ive never been really drunk before, just that feeling right before you're drunk that feels really good. Plus, I never drank until I turned 21. Weird, huh?

Im very into personal fitness, and I strength-train 4 times a week at Gold's Gym. (Hey look! Lots and lots of gay friends there! Seeeee??? ;)) Maybe thats why I have such a "naturalistic health of society" viewpoint.

jelloshotsrule
May 22, 2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
Hmm, not really.

Ive always been a very health conscious, staright edged kind of person as well. Ive never smoked or done drugs, but I do drink socially on occasion. Ive never been really drunk before, just that feeling right before you're drunk that feels really good. Plus, I never drank until I turned 21. Weird, huh?

Im very into personal fitness, and I strength-train 4 times a week at Gold's Gym. (Hey look! Lots and lots of gay friends there! Seeeee??? ;)) Maybe thats why I have such a "naturalistic health of society" viewpoint.

ahh. funny thing for me. i was at my brother's wedding when i was about 13. and he met his wife in russia so they had some vodka for everyone as a sort of tradition. well everyone had a shot. so i had one... nasty. anyways. they came around with seconds and as a joke i took one. my other bros were next to me. when they weren't looking i poured most of the second one out and watered it down to fill up the shot glass. then i did it.... maybe i'm remembering wrong, but i felt very happy and giddy after and ended up dancing around with a bunch of people laughing at/with me.... i was 13 and pretty small. so i guess it's possible... ha

haven't had anything since though. don't plan to. don't need it. word

agreenster
May 22, 2002, 12:56 PM
Its okay to disagree. Im sure we can find plenty of other stuff we disagree on, but our world still manages to revolve. That is, unless you start saying PC's are better than Apple, then we could have a SERIOUS fight on our hands.....:)

Mr. Anderson
May 22, 2002, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
That is, unless you start saying PC's are better than Apple, then we could have a SERIOUS fight on our hands.....:)

Its my personal belief that PCs suck, so no luck there.:D But its not really their fault, thank Bill Gates for that!

Smasher
May 22, 2002, 02:00 PM
Hmm... sorry if I get a little explicit, I'm trying to avoid it as much as possible.

Okay, everyone agrees there's nothing with a man and a woman 'together', right?

If that's fine, what's wrong with a man and a woman doing it 'the other way'?
Yes, one might find it disgusting... but that doesn't mean it's WRONG. You could argue humans aren't 'meant' to do it that way, but then again, we're not 'meant' to play basketball, either, are we?

If it's not wrong for a man and a woman to do it 'the other way', what's wrong with two men doing it 'the other way' (or two women doing whatever)?

I gotta go, I'll finish this later

cleo
May 22, 2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Smasher

If that's fine, what's wrong with a man and a woman doing it 'the other way'?
Yes, one might find it disgusting... but that doesn't mean it's WRONG. You could argue humans aren't 'meant' to do it that way, but then again, we're not 'meant' to play basketball, either, are we?

If it's not wrong for a man and a woman to do it 'the other way', what's wrong with two men doing it 'the other way' (or two women doing whatever)?



I think the taboo on sex that's not of the "vanilla" variety - in hetero and gay relationships - is about a fundamental denial of the pleasure being with someone you love can bring. I don't mean to Christian-bash, but I think a lot of our society's prudishness when it comes to sex comes from the Augustine ideal of sex for procreation, period. Obviously, gay couples aren't trying to reproduce (or "practicing" :)), and the idea that people like to ***** around because it's fun and pleasurable and an expression of affection just freaks some people out, maybe even on levels they don't understand.

(While I think this is a valid analysis, I again want to point out - even though most of you are sick of me saying this - that gay relationships are about more than just sex. I think the use of the word "homosexual" gives the impression that all we do/think about/want/live for is sex, but that's just not the case.)

Mr. Anderson
May 22, 2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by cleo
(While I think this is a valid analysis, I again want to point out - even though most of you are sick of me saying this - that gay relationships are about more than just sex. I think the use of the word "homosexual" gives the impression that all we do/think about/want/live for is sex, but that's just not the case.)

I never really thought of it this way. You could be straight and feel the same way. Love is a strange thing, but you should never be ashamed to express it to someone because of who they are.

jelloshotsrule
May 22, 2002, 02:32 PM
i think the preconceived (false) notion that all gay folks are only about sex comes from 2 things: 1, their sex cannot procreate, so many feel it's not meant to be. whether rightfully or not. 2. the more prominent, openly gay people are sometimes the ones who are a bit more promiscuous.


basically, i think it comes from ignorance, and not knowing enough about gay folks and their lifestyle. now, had i based my gay knowledge on my suitemate from my freshman year, i'd think every gay person had sex with 40+ people in a year. but i know that's not true. not everyone has the chance to meet gay people and thus learn more about them..

another thing to consider though is... most people (myself included) think that college guys are all after some ass. well. i'm not. but i do think that most others are. so it's easy to see how preconceived notions can form.

britboy
May 22, 2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by cleo
I think the use of the word "homosexual" gives the impression that all we do/think about/want/live for is sex, but that's just not the case.)


Why? Because it has 'sexual' in it? The same could then apply to the term 'heterosexual'.

Anyway, i've never thought of it like that, until you mentioned it now.

mcrain
May 22, 2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i based my gay knowledge on my suitemate

Wow, I learned all I know from my cellmate too! What was your suitemate in for? Mine was in for armed robbery.

jelloshotsrule
May 22, 2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by mcrain


Wow, I learned all I know from my cellmate too! What was your suitemate in for? Mine was in for armed robbery.

are you implying you were sodomized?

i personally wasn't, i don't think i'm hot enough for my old suitemate.....

good thing, for me.

Gelfin
May 22, 2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Vilacr
Oh..I forgot this is America and everything still holds true. It is seemingly easy to forget or be ignorant on history when you are the governing body. I will now go to where I am accepted and understood.

Oh, I really don't like where this has gone, but I think it proves an important point. Unless I'm terribly mistaken, Paul and I have just been called racists because we disagreed with Vilacr that nobody on Earth is more miserable and oppressed than black people in the United States. We stand accused, at the very least, of being exclusionary.

If I understand this correctly, someplace Vilacr (and I don't know if s/he is even still reading) would be "accepted and understood" is someplace where s/he can say "oh poor me," and the crowd will respond, "indeed, oh poor you." What does that accomplish?

I am a part of no governing body, of anything, but I assume that the accusation of ignorance of history was directed at me. What is it you think I'm ignorant of? Do you think I'm not aware that slavery existed in the United States, and that the slaves were predominantly black? Do you think I'm not aware that many slaves were mistreated? Do you think I'm not aware that even after the end of slavery, black people were excluded, by means both overt and subversive, from participating in the society of which they were allegedly full and equal members? Do you think I'm not aware of the "separate but equal" policy, and the failures thereof? Do you think I'm not aware of the civil rights movement and the violence suffered by black people as a result of daring to assert their equality? Do you think I'm not aware that certain racist undercurrents exist in our society to this day?

I am aware of all of these things, so I ask you, what more do you expect from me than this: I certainly am sufficiently aware of history not to repeat it myself, and I personally fight discriminatory rhetoric and policy whenever I encounter it and have the ability to get involved. But the lesson I have learned from history is not that black people must be treated fairly and equitably, but that all people must be so treated, and if you believe that black people are the only people to suffer inequities in American society (or any other), then it is you who is ignorant of history, willfully ignorant of any part which does not support your view.

I fear that posting this will just further tar me as a racist because I said something other than "amen" after Vilacr's statements, and surely I won't be posting any more on this subject. I'm getting the same creepy feeling over this that I got the time I was called a racist because I committed the atrociously discriminatory act of fining a black student for returning a library book after the due date.

Backtothemac
May 22, 2002, 05:29 PM
OMG!!! I take a day off, and this thing explodes. Sorry that I haven't been around today, one of our cats died, and we had a funeral for him :(

Anyway. This is what it boils down to.

There are differnet types of people in this world. Some are white, some are black, some are mean, some are kind, some are A$$holes, some are funny, some are gay. The point is that we are all still people. For the ones out there that understand that differences in people make the world a far more interesting, and enjoyable place to live. The ones that don't get it are ignorant individuals that do not understand the true meaning of life, which is to love, and learn. Those are the two most important things that we can do during our brief time on this planet.

Hey, I might not like to do what Paul does in his private life, but you know what, that doesn't mean that I cannot like Paul. That doesn't mean that Paul is the spawn of Satan. It means that he is not me.

MrsBacktothemac may not like to have the same type of sex and relationships that Macette and Cleo do (hey I can pray through right), but that doesn't mean that she can't love them, or learn from them.

Regardless of what race, or religion someone is, EVERYONE is a minority. You know why. Because everyone is their own person. DumbA$$es that fight that with uninformed ignorant opinions (yes some are obviously ignorant) will always be around. The key is for us to all get along, and learn from one another. Learn about each others background, learn what makes us so wonderful. That is how you change the world. Introduce yourself to a stranger, of another race. Go to a different church. If your an atheist, go to a church. If your homophobic, go to a gay bar. LIVE LIFE!!! Don't stand by assuming that you understand a persons life, if you never take the time to learn about them.


Oh, and jello, yes, I agree, Columbus day is a joke.

cleo
May 22, 2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
one of our cats died, and we had a funeral for him :(

Aww. I'm so sorry to hear about your cat. He had been sick for awhile, right? I will remember him and your family in my metta practice.

Backtothemac
May 22, 2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by cleo


Aww. I'm so sorry to hear about your cat. He had been sick for awhile, right? I will remember him and your family in my metta practice.

Not trying to go off topic, but going off topic for one post.

yea, he has been sick for a month now. We were going to put him to sleep today, and his little body just gave out before we could take him. It was sad for us, because our daughter took it really hard. My wife had him for 15 years. Anyway, nuff sadness for one day. :(

Macette
May 22, 2002, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


Not trying to go off topic, but going off topic for one post.

yea, he has been sick for a month now. We were going to put him to sleep today, and his little body just gave out before we could take him. It was sad for us, because our daughter took it really hard. My wife had him for 15 years. Anyway, nuff sadness for one day. :(

My 15 year old cat Chips died last week. Liver problems.

I share your grief.

:(

Agreenster, I'm sorry, but 'tolerance' really does imply 'tolerance' - you simply can't say that you're 'tolerant' and then be homophobic! If you think that homosexuality is wrong, then you're INTOLERANT of it, even if you don't actually go around physically intimidating gay people, or shouting out loud about your views.
BTW, I hadn't read your post yesterday when I wrote that post - but now I have...

You're right, I do hate you. ;)

But I'll get over it.. xx

agreenster
May 23, 2002, 12:45 AM
Jelloshots and I discussed this further a page ago (i think, this thread is SOOO long) and I think nearly everyone came to the agreement (or at least didnt protest) that it is not only possible to like a person but not like their actions, but everyone does it on a daily basis. Go check it out, it isnt as confusing as it sounds.

I think the reason it is such a touchy thing in this case is simply because of the subject matter.

Besides, Im not homophobic, I just disagree with homosexuality. There is a difference.

Oh, and by the way, I dont think Cleo hates me anymore, so you have permission to not hate me too! ;)

jelloshotsrule
May 23, 2002, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac

Oh, and jello, yes, I agree, Columbus day is a joke.

word. disregard me reasking you about it on another thread. didn't see this.

and yeah, i think one can dislike things someone does, even a major part of their life, and still like/love the person.

in fact, it might require more love for people with whom you disagree a lot, then it would for someone who you see totally eye to eye with.

Backtothemac
May 23, 2002, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


word. disregard me reasking you about it on another thread. didn't see this.

and yeah, i think one can dislike things someone does, even a major part of their life, and still like/love the person.

in fact, it might require more love for people with whom you disagree a lot, then it would for someone who you see totally eye to eye with.

I moved this part of the discussion back over to the politics thread.

http://www.macrumors.com/forums/showthread.php3?postid=69534#post69534