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MacRumors
Jan 1, 2004, 12:24 AM
Apple will be announcing a new version of Final Cut Express (2.0) at MacWorld Expo according to some reports.

Reportedly, Apple has already started shipping the new product and is appearing at local Comp USA stores. CompUSA's are not to display the new packaging until January 6, 2004 (the day of the MacWorld SF Keynote).

Final Cut Express 2.0 is expected to retail for $299.97 with a 2.0 Upgrade for $99.99.

Other Apple Software updates are expected. Rumor roundup to follow in the coming days.

Freg3000
Jan 1, 2004, 12:29 AM
Having just gotten FCP 4, it will be interesting to see if I will be regretting my purchase.

Perhaps Apple will be including ultra-lite versions of Soundtrack and Livetype?

SeaFox
Jan 1, 2004, 12:29 AM
Ohyeah...

More updates!

entropy1980
Jan 1, 2004, 12:35 AM
any ideas of any features they could possibly add with out crimping FCP4?

stingerman
Jan 1, 2004, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by entropy1980
any ideas of any features they could possibly add with out crimping FCP4?

Apple seems to using the formats and bundled Apps as the differentiator. DOn't expect HD or Movie quality 24FPS on Express. Too, Soundtrack and eventually Livetype will always be a seperate cost while FCP buys you everything.

SiliconAddict
Jan 1, 2004, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by entropy1980
any ideas of any features they could possibly add with out crimping FCP4?

Maybe they are close to updating FCP??

Waluigi
Jan 1, 2004, 01:03 AM
Makes sense to have an update, because apple has really been pushing FCE for only $99 with a new mac for a few months now.

--Waluigi

Dahl
Jan 1, 2004, 01:45 AM
I have yet to use FCE, but I am glad I have it.
One thing that might make me choose FCP over an FCE upgrade is the added software like Livetype and Soundtrack.

Mighty64Lincoln
Jan 1, 2004, 02:31 AM
I am so tired of being burnt by Apple in the Higher Education world. I am one of the few lone community college professors who still believe that Apple is holding in the creative markets. To that end, we will be teaching FCE to our entry level students.

Before the holidays, I just sent Apple a huge license for FCE and now they are going to ship version 2. In the past, Apple says..."To bad!" and we'll have to spend more money getting the newer license.

Macromedia burned us too with this MX and MX2004 fiasco this past summer too.

You know what's interesting about the whole world of Higher Education and technology...Microsoft is the only company that is not screwing us and will glady give their new FrontPage 2003 software license to one of our labs and across campus.

While I'm not a huge FP2003 or MS fan at that, I can tell you that Apple better look before it moves in the Higher Education world. I am of the belief that Higher Ed is the last remaining places you'll see Macs in large numbers. They've lost the K12 market to Dell and that will never be regained. But if Apple does not give colleges free updates when there is less than a month in the purchase process, then I'm willing to look the other way at other vendors who are more, shall I say, budget friendly.

James Craner
Jan 1, 2004, 02:40 AM
I hope that they will improve the capturing process with batch capturing.

lind0834
Jan 1, 2004, 02:58 AM
What I would like to see is a recent FC revision that would work well on my G3... but I know it will never happen. At least it's nice to know that I'll have options when it's time to upgrade.

sethypoo
Jan 1, 2004, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by Mighty64Lincoln
I am of the belief that Higher Ed is the last remaining places you'll see Macs in large numbers. They've lost the K12 market to Dell and that will never be regained. But if Apple does not give colleges free updates when there is less than a month in the purchase process, then I'm willing to look the other way at other vendors who are more, shall I say, budget friendly.

I read this an just has to agree, and, of course, add a little.

Apple, while being more expensive, and thus a little hard on most community colleges budgets, does put out hardware/software that 1) lasts longer 2) is easier to learn to use and 3) easily allows creative professionals to express themselves.

CC budget committees will have to realize that while Apple products cost a little more, the end product will a be a whole lot nicer that other vendors products.

ChrisH3677
Jan 1, 2004, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by Mighty64Lincoln
I am so tired of being burnt by Apple in the Higher Education world.

You know what's interesting about the whole world of Higher Education and technology...Microsoft is the only company that is not screwing us

I sympathize with you but promise you there's no free lunches with Microsoft. Or for that matter any software vendor. I think the retail term for it is "loss leader". Make a loss on one product to get you in the door and buying others where they make their money. Check out MS's subscription model, or their Exchange licensing. That might make you think different.

ImAlwaysRight
Jan 1, 2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Mighty64Lincoln
I am so tired of being burnt by Apple in the Higher Education world.
I just purchased FCE 1.0 about a month ago for $49 in the EDU market direct from Apple. Having this type of pricing, I don't see any reason to complain.

I have a dual 2.0 G5. If the new 2.0 FCE is optimized for the G5, I will be glad to drop $99 for an upgrade. I'll even bet I will get a reduced upgrade price on the upgrade as an educator.

kingtj
Jan 1, 2004, 12:26 PM
To be perfectly honest, I don't think Apple losing the K-12 market is a really big issue, when you look where they're headed. The big attraction to Macs for primary school (and even preschool!) was the relative simplicity of "classic" MacOS.
Teachers didn't need lots of training to begin doing useful things with a Mac in the classroom.

Nowdays, "simple" computers and OS's just aren't really being manufactured anymore. On the Microsoft side, you have additional new features being added by the thousands with each OS update, and the older ones being officially killed off. On the Apple side, you have everything "classic MacOS" being killed off, and the push is on to get XServe servers running in Corporate America, Powerbooks laptops sold to traditional Unix administrators, and G5's hawked to any self-proclaimed "power user" who wants a fast, 64-bit machine. Sure, they still offer the eMac for education, but it's no longer a "cornerstone" of Apple's sales plan.

There are loads and loads of "outdated" computers still functioning just fine - and I'm starting to see more and more of these "recycled" into daily use in the preschools and grade-schools. Why should a grade 4 teacher spend thousands of dollars on new eMacs and all new software to run on them, when he or she still has a closet full of perfectly good learning programs that run on MacOS 7.6? By the same token, people will gladly give away their old Pentium based PCs to schools, complete with software. As these free hand-out machines break down, I can see these schools buying new PC replacements, one by one, to keep up what they have - rather than blow huge budgets upgrading a whole computer lab.

When it comes to Higher Education, they're *all* out to screw you over. Microsoft loves to play the game of "bait the fish with cheap or free software and reel them in later with licensing fees and update costs". Apple, at least, seems to me like they're a little more up-front about things. They sell you exactly what you buy, and that's that. New upgrade comes out tomorrow and you don't qualify? Well, maybe you needed to keep abreast of the rumor sites and ask more questions before purchasing? Yeah, it may seem "unfair" - but it's no worse than Microsoft's typical schemes. (EG. On version X of MS Office you guys purchased a site license for, we used to let you load copies on both 1 laptop and 1 desktop, since we realize you can't physically be in two places at once using both at the same time. But now on this new version Y of Office you paid for, we changed that. You need to buy a new license for each laptop, too. Sorry!)


Originally posted by Mighty64Lincoln
I am so tired of being burnt by Apple in the Higher Education world. I am one of the few lone community college professors who still believe that Apple is holding in the creative markets. To that end, we will be teaching FCE to our entry level students.

Before the holidays, I just sent Apple a huge license for FCE and now they are going to ship version 2. In the past, Apple says..."To bad!" and we'll have to spend more money getting the newer license.

Macromedia burned us too with this MX and MX2004 fiasco this past summer too.

You know what's interesting about the whole world of Higher Education and technology...Microsoft is the only company that is not screwing us and will glady give their new FrontPage 2003 software license to one of our labs and across campus.

While I'm not a huge FP2003 or MS fan at that, I can tell you that Apple better look before it moves in the Higher Education world. I am of the belief that Higher Ed is the last remaining places you'll see Macs in large numbers. They've lost the K12 market to Dell and that will never be regained. But if Apple does not give colleges free updates when there is less than a month in the purchase process, then I'm willing to look the other way at other vendors who are more, shall I say, budget friendly.

Mighty64Lincoln
Jan 1, 2004, 12:27 PM
I've always been a fan of Apple but had to start using/administrating networks with Windows and now teach Windows becuase of their proliforation into the market...that makes sense.

But when you have labs full of G4s and 5s and FCE is costing you $119.00 per seat and then you ask for that same money later...your department chair gets a little suspicious. Why? Becuase when you buy volume licensing from Apple, they do not offer upgrades like they do with the single licensing purchases; unless they make some sort of concession for you. If this holds true, I'll be spending $119 dollars for FCE 1 and then another $119 per seat for FCE 2. There is where I feel I'm getting burnt.

Although it's good I have not purchased FCP and will not until our new academic budget is approved. I will not purchase FCP 5 until it's released and will use that for our advanced editing students.

It's not that I dislike Apple...No. After all, I used to work for them in the K12 sector in the mid-90s and they are a much leaner company now than they were then. However, my Higher Ed Apple Rep will concede they do treat the K12 market gentler becuase Apple perceives there is less money in the K12 sector. I don't know if that's true or not. But at the Community College, we're not rich either. I told him if you want the Mac marketshare to increase, you might have to put your foot in several "market" doors. In doing that, don't remember the Community Colleges when you do that.

While I cannot speak for our specific Microsoft licensing and their practices. I do know that when FP2003 was introduced right after 2002 (I'm sure this was to stalemate GoLiveCS and DreamweaverMX 2004), they sent our IT department "free" discs. Now I know they really aren't free becuase in our agreement with them, we do pay for it in the end. Perhaps Microsoft has the money to do that and Apple just cannot do that.

However, I do have to tell you that when we opened our advanced multimedia lab with a room full of G5s my most ardent Windows fans were blasted out the lab with OSX, the G5 speed, design and how OSX never crashed once in the semester. Not to mention we were using Airport extremem without any issue whatsoever.

Hope Apple can give us some upgrade path rather then spending the 119 dollars per seat again.

Just my thoughts,
Matt

Photorun
Jan 1, 2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Mighty64Lincoln
I am so tired of being burnt by Apple in the Higher Education world. I am one of the few lone community college professors who still believe that Apple is holding in the creative markets. To that end, we will be teaching FCE to our entry level students.

You know what's interesting about the whole world of Higher Education and technology...Microsoft is the only company that is not screwing us and will glady give their new FrontPage 2003 software license to one of our labs and across campus.


Agreed. I work for a large college and Apple's attention to service has been awful while Dull and Microsuck throw themselves into the mix and strongarm everyone out. Dull actually has a rep that takes the whole IT department, who's usually peecee idiots, out to expensive lunches, it's typical wine and dine by them in that their products sucks but remember the reality is 1. people are stupid and easily bought. 2. see 1.

At one time this college was uber Mac, then Dull and M$ muscled in, and in, and in, now the only places you'll find Macs are in the Art Department. Until last year Macs even were used in the Admin building but the Dull rep had an exclusive meeting with the President, rumors have it there's payoffs and stuff, and viola, every Mac was carted off over the summer to people who didn't want to get peecees. It's incredibly depressing.

So yeah, no free lunches but you can at least try to be around and service your customers or do something, anything. Apple doesn't, and every bastion they have will fall because 1. people are stupid and easily bought and 2. see 1.

Interesting to note that once Dull was in with their crappy peecees --which of course IT wants around, it's job security because the viruses and issues the college now has thye've had to quadruple staff making the manager there more powerful, quatdruple and mind you the college size and amount of computers hasn't changed, only they've gone from Macs to peecees. IT doesn't even know how to work on Macs -- the Dull computers that are so crappy cost more than the eMac and the lowest iMac (found a lot of info through purchasing) which is interesting, the college could actually SAVE money but getting Macs, not in the lack of need personnel and downtime... but bottom line purchasing, who'd a thunk it? One out of three complain about "being down" and having this or that virus which, back in the day, never never was the case. But hey, nobody speaks up because 1. people are stupid and 2. see 1.

Dull/M$ is kicking Apple out of eduction everywhere, that IS huge and anyone thinking different about it is 1. clueless or 2. a naive Apple appologist living in a basement. The education market is, to use my fave word, championing mediocrity, and Apple has simply let it... and that's just incredibly sad.

LethalWolfe
Jan 1, 2004, 02:46 PM
Mighty64Lincoln,

Maybe I'm missing something, but why must you have the latest version of FCE? What is wrong w/version 1? I can understand being miffed at the timing, but I don't think its worth getting up in arms about. Anyway, especially for education where purchases are usually few and far between and there is a constant rotation of new users I'd rather have a mature piece of software that I know works (like FCE) then hop on the bleeding edge and being a bug/quirk finder (FCE 2).

Back when I was in college we purchased some version 1 or 1.5 Avid Express DV systems to compliment our 5 Avid Express machines in the lab and it sucked. Constant feed of new users + buggy/quircky, immature software = one big nightmare. People, myself included, ended up waiting for hours for one an older Avid to become free. The new Avids were much, much faster when it came to rendering and such, but they were so buggy it was just maddening at times. Give me slower and proven than faster and immature any day.


Lethal

papersushi
Jan 1, 2004, 02:58 PM
I think Apple does have dedicated rep for large biz and educational customers. They rarely in the office, always on the road with cell phone, take large purchase customers out for lunch or dinner.

Talking about no free upgrade from FCE 1.0 to 2.0, 2.0 has not been announced to release yet, so please don't make any prediction about it's liscense policy now. I don't remember MS ever offered free OS upgrade in the past 10-15 years just because you bought older version one month before newer one was released.

Anyhow, in the past, usually there have always been some sorts of purchase protection programs in place. Like DVD Studio Pro 1.5 to 2.0.

bretm
Jan 1, 2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Mighty64Lincoln,

Maybe I'm missing something, but why must you have the latest version of FCE? What is wrong w/version 1? I can understand being miffed at the timing, but I don't think its worth getting up in arms about. Anyway, especially for education where purchases are usually few and far between and there is a constant rotation of new users I'd rather have a mature piece of software that I know works (like FCE) then hop on the bleeding edge and being a bug/quirk finder (FCE 2).

Back when I was in college we purchased some version 1 or 1.5 Avid Express DV systems to compliment our 5 Avid Express machines in the lab and it sucked. Constant feed of new users + buggy/quircky, immature software = one big nightmare. People, myself included, ended up waiting for hours for one an older Avid to become free. The new Avids were much, much faster when it came to rendering and such, but they were so buggy it was just maddening at times. Give me slower and proven than faster and immature any day.


Lethal

Yep. Start buying software when it's new, and you won't be so ticked off when a new version comes out so quickly after your purchase. 3 seconds of research on sites like this would've told you it was expected months in advance.

Go ahead and teach design with software and computers you won't find in the workplace. Great idea.

nuckinfutz
Jan 1, 2004, 04:04 PM
One should always consult the buying guide http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/ so as to ascertain how long a product has not been updated.

If you were forced to purchase the license this winter then it's understandable but if not I think you shot your wad a little quickly. Hopefully the upgrade to FCE 2.0 will be kind. Stay positive, Lethal Wolfe is right you might want to wait for a few small updates 2.0.x before you deploy at your college.

As for Dull/MS they have perfected the good ole "reach around" to keep schools happy. All you need to do is woo the person "in charge" and have them committ to changes that in many cases are ill advised. All's fair in love and war. Hopefully Apple begins to think out the box and realize that software is the glue that will keep Mac hardware in use in schools and businesses.

aafuss1
Jan 1, 2004, 04:12 PM
I wonderif the new version might be optimised for the G5, just like Final Cut Pro 4 has.

revenuee
Jan 1, 2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by aafuss1
I wonderif the new version might be optimised for the G5, just like Final Cut Pro 4 has.

I think any Application Apple releases from here on is going to be G5 optimized.

bensisko
Jan 1, 2004, 07:36 PM
My questions is this: Why would anyone buy Mac-related stuff before Macworld (besides the christmas thing)?

LethalWolfe
Jan 3, 2004, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by bensisko
My questions is this: Why would anyone buy Mac-related stuff before Macworld (besides the christmas thing)?


Sometimes there is unused budget money that, if not spent before year's end, will be lost. We just bought new G5 and about a dozen upgrades for various apps at my work because for that exact reason. There was some $$$ left over in the budget and if it was spent before 12-31-03 it was gone forever.


Lethal

johnnyjibbs
Jan 3, 2004, 05:50 AM
I wonder what new features it will have? I could never have afforded Final Cut Express if I hadn't have got it for 79 ($130 not $99 :( :p ) with my PowerBook and I still haven't found out all I can do with it! I think it's a fantastic program to use and I have no problems with a newer version coming out.

By the way, is there a time limit for which the upgrade price is available or can you purchase version 2 for the upgrade price indefinately if you own FCE 1?

jettredmont
Jan 4, 2004, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by kingtj
To be perfectly honest, I don't think Apple losing the K-12 market is a really big issue, when you look where they're headed. The big attraction to Macs for primary school (and even preschool!) was the relative simplicity of "classic" MacOS.
Teachers didn't need lots of training to begin doing useful things with a Mac in the classroom.

Nowdays, "simple" computers and OS's just aren't really being manufactured anymore. On the Microsoft side, you have additional new features being added by the thousands with each OS update, and the older ones being officially killed off. On the Apple side, you have everything "classic MacOS" being killed off, and the push is on to get XServe servers running in Corporate America, Powerbooks laptops sold to traditional Unix administrators, and G5's hawked to any self-proclaimed "power user" who wants a fast, 64-bit machine. Sure, they still offer the eMac for education, but it's no longer a "cornerstone" of Apple's sales plan.


I disagree. As much as the Mac is important to Apple, the Education market in general is important to them.

Do they offer "simple" computers anymore? Depends on what "simple" is. I hear fewer complaints about OS X than I did about System 7 and 8 (and 9), and certainly less than I hear about Windows 95, 98, Me, and XP. The thing is: if you were to spend real money on a computer today (ie, not wait for one to drop in your lap via a back-of-the-garage donation), you'd end up with one either running Mac OS X or some recent variant of Windows.

Apple's been reeling in numerous "a computer for every child" contracts over the past couple of years. These are big money makers and market makers for them.

In the "medium sized" districts, Apple does pretty well selling server boxes (XServes) for their back-room tracking and reporting. They also do quite well selling software to manage all this (PowerSchool).

The "large" districts went over to mainframe back rooms years ago, but Apple's working on them as well.

All of which is to say: Apple's focus on education hasn't really changed at all; it has expanded somewhat to include more than just the kindergarten classrooms.


There are loads and loads of "outdated" computers still functioning just fine - and I'm starting to see more and more of these "recycled" into daily use in the preschools and grade-schools. Why should a grade 4 teacher spend thousands of dollars on new eMacs and all new software to run on them, when he or she still has a closet full of perfectly good learning programs that run on MacOS 7.6? By the same token, people will gladly give away their old Pentium based PCs to schools, complete with software. As these free hand-out machines break down, I can see these schools buying new PC replacements, one by one, to keep up what they have - rather than blow huge budgets upgrading a whole computer lab.


Quite true, but hardly a new phenomenon. My children have been in a few schools and districts in the past several years, and there has always been a pretty large number of "second hand" computers kicking around -- many of which had been donated four or five years earlier. I donated about five hours of my time bringing some old 1993-era PCs back to life at one of my daughters' preschool in 2000, and I'd be surprised if that particular school has replaced their aging dinos yet. The smaller the school, the more likely this was to be the case, in my experience at least. Still, though, every one of those schools had a hand full of newer machines, which most often were the majority, which could run "modern" software quite well.

jettredmont
Jan 4, 2004, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by bretm
3 seconds of research on sites like this would've told you it was expected months in advance.


Actually, the fact that FCE is a cut-down Final Cut Pro, and that Final Cut Pro was upgraded since the last release of FCE (with several features not in FCE), should tell you that an FCE update is in the cards relatively soon.

jettredmont
Jan 4, 2004, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Sometimes there is unused budget money that, if not spent before year's end, will be lost. We just bought new G5 and about a dozen upgrades for various apps at my work because for that exact reason. There was some $$$ left over in the budget and if it was spent before 12-31-03 it was gone forever.


Ahh. the insanity of budgeting bureaucracies ...

At least it keeps the accountants happy :)